April 20, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Niren Chaudhary, former Chairman and CEO of Panera Bread, and VEST Member Beverly Carmichael, a seasoned corporate board director for several iconic brands. Together, we explore the rising demand for empathetic leadership in today’s volatile and unpredictable world.
“Leaders have to be peddlers of hope,” Niren Chaudhary.
For our guests full bio and show notes click here.
Drawing on the moving story of his late daughter Aisha—who accomplished extraordinary things in her 18 years despite a terminal illness—Chaudhary shares how profound personal loss reshaped his perspective on life, leadership, and legacy.
From this experience emerged a leadership philosophy anchored in three core values:
- Courage: Focus on what you can control.
- Gratitude: Celebrate life’s gifts, even in hardship.
- Generosity: Lead by serving others.
He introduces a four-step framework for processing loss and leading with resilience:
- Acceptance
- Self-forgiveness
- Self-love
- Renewed hope through purpose
These principles are not only healing—they’re actionable strategies for leaders navigating uncertainty and change.
Chaudhary also reflects on the challenges of leading multigenerational teams, and building cultures that thrive, by providing:
- Clarity of mission
- Opportunities for personal mastery
- Shared purpose as a multiplier for good
and challenges the false divide between purpose and profit. He shares how leaders can foster a virtuous cycle where values-driven decisions enhance both customer and employee experiences—not through isolated acts of charity, but through integrated, sustainable impact.
Tune in to discover how courage, gratitude, and generosity can transform your leadership—and your organization. Be sure to share this episode with a friend and don’t forget to leave us a review.
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend, leave us a review and don't forget to hit the subscribe button. If you are ready to take your career and business to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, I believe that we're living in a very
dynamic world.
It's volatile, it'sunpredictable and it's a world
of poly-crisis, if you thinkabout it.
And this is one of thoseelements.
But if you think about it, stepback and say well, you know,
there's an unprecedented levelof challenges, whether it is
(00:21):
about diversity, equity,inclusion, climate technology,
you know, risks of technology,all of them.
There's significant sort ofchallenges that we in fact,
there's some sort of a trustdeficit in the world around.
So there are many challenges,but I passionately believe that
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming,
(00:44):
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming, if
we all go, the solution, Ibelieve, doesn't lie outside of
us.
It lies actually within us.
And if we go back to our owncore values, with compassion, to
(01:05):
address lack of understanding,with curiosity, to address
climate change, with a sense ofresponsibility, to address the
risks of technology, with agreater sense of morality and
what's right and what's wrong, Ibelieve these challenges can
become unique opportunities.
It is our job as leaders toalways be optimistic.
(01:28):
Leaders have to be peddlers ofhope.
We have to be optimistic, youknow, and optimism is an
infinitely better universe tolive in.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In this episode we sit down with Niren Chaudhary,
chairman and CEO of Panera Bread, and best member Beverly
Carmichael, a seasoned corporateboard director for several
iconic brands.
Together, we explore thegrowing demand for empathetic
leadership, especially intoday's volatile and uncertain
landscape.
From navigatingmulti-generational workspaces to
(02:01):
staying grounded in values likecompassion, equity and
responsibility, we shareinsights as to how leaders and
board members can remainprincipled even as these values
are increasingly politicized andchallenged.
For our guest's full bio andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco
(02:22):
forward slash podcast.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with best members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
If I could, I'd like to start with something that I
guess is, uh, it is personal toyou, and that is your daughter
Aisha's story.
Her story has really touched somany lives, has even been the
basis of a Bollywood film, theSky is Pink.
Many people probably have seenit or heard of it, but for those
(03:02):
who aren't familiar, just tellus about Aisha, her journey, her
story and how she has inspiredyou in your leadership and in
your life.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you for asking that question, so I think for
everybody else.
Aisha, my daughter, was 18years old when she passed away a
few years back of a fibroticlung, which is essentially a
hardening of the lung, and shewas 13 when she received the
diagnosis that she had only fiveyears to live.
(03:33):
But what is amazing is that herresponse and attitude was well,
at least I have five years tolive.
And she lived at such intensitythat she had gratitude for what
she had and not despair forwhat she was losing, and made
the best of the gifts that werethere available to her and made
(03:55):
every single day count, in everymoment magical.
She continues to inspire me andI love talking about her any
opportunity and she achieved somuch despite how little she had,
and she certainly achievedinfinitely more than many of us
(04:17):
would achieve in a lifetime.
Let me share some of.
Let me brag a little bit aboutmy daughter.
You know she was a TED Talkspeaker.
She's got two talks on YouTube,over a million hits each.
A motivational speaker, she'sthe author of a best-selling
book called my Little Epiphanies.
It's on Amazon.
(04:37):
There's a movie, as Beverlymentioned, inspired by her life
and her incredible spirit,called the Sky is Pink on
Netflix, and there is also adocumentary that we released to
honor her, called Black SunshineBaby, on Netflix.
All of this in the span of lessthan 18 years is absolutely
(05:01):
astounding that she achieved somuch despite how little she had,
and I think the reason why shewas able to achieve so much was
because of the innate wisdomthat she got.
When many of us do, when we areconfronting death, when we're
(05:22):
confronting the end, I think wesuddenly have an epiphany about
what's truly important, and asdid my daughter, and she sort of
really had clarity around whatwas truly important to her in
that moment, when she knew thatshe had only five years to live.
(05:43):
And her story is about thosethree values that I have since
then embraced, and I hope, ifthese resonate with you, you
will too.
The first value is aboutcourage, which is let's focus on
what we can control and notwhat's happening to us, and she
lived her life on that basis.
(06:03):
I'm going to just celebratewhat I have and do with what I
have, instead of despairing forwhat I have lost.
The second is gratitude thatthere is always something in
life to be grateful for, andlet's remember to just honor the
many gifts that we have in thisprecious short tenure of life
(06:25):
that has been given to us andlive a life celebrating all the
many gifts and not despairingfor the losses that we may have
suffered.
Gratitude and finally, she liveda life basis the value of
generosity, that true happinesslies in helping and giving to
other people, and I think we allrelate to that as human beings.
(06:47):
You know, when we are inservice of other people is truly
when we feel most fulfilled.
So I have, since her passing,embraced these values and it has
truly shaped who I am as I moveforward in life.
Yeah, that's very profound, andjust the thought that all of
that happened who I am as I moveforward in life.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
That's very profound and just the thought that all of
that happened, she was able toaccomplish all of that in 18
years, do you?
As I think about it?
I think we all have some sortof loss in our lives.
How do we?
I mean, yours is very profoundand you really embrace that.
(07:29):
But how do we think about whenwe have loss?
How do we keep from letting itget us down and keeping us down,
particularly as we try to beleaders in our organizations, as
we try to be good mothers,aunts, you know, good family
members?
How do we keep loss fromgetting us down and keeping us
(07:52):
down?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Such an important question and I think my loss has
been pretty extreme, like yousaid.
You know, but there is nobodyon this call who has not lost
something or someone.
I can confidently say that Eachone of us, who nobody on this
call who has not lost somethingor someone, I can confidently
say that Each one of us who's onthis call has experienced loss
of some kind, Something orsomeone.
(08:14):
Everybody.
That's kind of a, you know likean integral part of being human
is to lose, and it's part ofour human experience and our
human journey, no matter who weare, and that inner set is a
common denominator for all of us.
What I have realized is that inthose most hurtful and
(08:35):
vulnerable moments of loss iswhen we can actually learn and
grow the most.
And if we reframe our lossesand an opportunity to become
stronger and better, then it ishas its own use in the way that
(08:56):
it ends up shaping who we are.
So let me just explain.
I really believe that if we,rather than shutting out and
blocking our losses and pain, ifwe open ourselves and embrace
the hurt and allow it to shapewho we are, I believe that we
can walk taller and walk furtherafter every time that we fall
(09:19):
down.
And what I discovered was it'snot easy, of course, and it
takes time, and it takesdifferent amounts of time
depending on what you're dealingwith, but I found that there
are four different things thatone can do to actually allow us
to have our losses shape who weare.
(09:41):
So the four things I want toshare with everybody on the call
First is acceptance, and we allknow the serenity prayer, right
, let me accept and let me havethe strength to accept that that
I cannot change, but I havefound that that is never enough,
and I'm sure many of us havedone that and we ask for
(10:01):
acceptance, but you know what?
Where do we go from there?
The second step, of course, isextremely important, which is
around self forgiveness.
That acceptance is not enough.
Whenever there is a loss ofsome kind, we tend to always
hold ourselves accountable.
(10:22):
Hold ourselves accountable andwe have guilt, and therefore
letting go of that guilt is soimportant.
Therefore, forgiving yourself.
I had to learn to forgive myselffor having failed the two
daughters that I lost.
I felt that I had failed as afather and that what that
self-forgiveness means is andeven though that thought was
(10:43):
irrational what thatself-forgiveness means is you
keep telling yourself you didthe best that you could, I
forgive you.
You did the best that you could, I forgive you.
And after a while you startbelieving it.
You know, initially, of courseyou reject it.
So acceptance, then forgiveness.
But even that forgiveness isnot enough.
(11:04):
I have learned that you need tothen learn to love yourself
again, because you can't give toothers what you don't have and
you're hurting and you'rebruised and you're angry and
you're unhappy.
And you have to learn toactually say, okay, I love you.
And I have to learn to lovemyself again to be able to love
(11:24):
somebody else.
And to me there's a very simpleway of expressing self-love.
You know, all of us have a oneday I will list, which is a mini
bucket list One day I will takethat holiday.
One day I'll fall in love.
One day I will learn thatlanguage.
One day I will learn a musicalinstrument.
One day I will do this and Iwill do that.
(11:44):
And my expression of self-loveis do it now, prioritize it and
make time for yourself.
You want to have that holidaythat you've always wanted.
Do it now, don't wait.
You know you want to learn thatinstrument.
Do it now.
I want to learn that language.
Do it now.
So when I lost Aisha, you'llfind this funny, but number one
(12:13):
on my list was to go to Harvard.
What a strange thing to dreamabout, but I went there.
The second thing on my bucketlist was to release my music.
I'm a musician and I hired amusic studio.
I hired some musicians, playedsome music and I released the
songs on Spotify.
Nobody listens to it, exceptfor my wife, but you know
they're out there.
So acceptance, forgiveness,self love and then, finally,
(12:37):
even that is not enough, because, as human beings, we need hope.
We need hope to get up and towalk again.
We need a purpose, a mission.
You know meaning for our livesand I think that's so important
and that has to.
So my sort of mission andmeaning is to help unlock human
(12:57):
potential, and I wake up everyday, every morning, committed to
make that a reality.
So I think, in summary, I wouldsay loss is an incredible
opportunity for us to becomestronger, to walk taller, to
walk further, if you canremember these four things of
acceptance, forgiveness,self-love and hope.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Wow, you know, if we finished our session right, then
I would feel like this was ahuge success.
Those are things that I will,and I know we all will, carry
forward.
I had never thought about themlike that.
But let's change subjects a bit.
(13:38):
I'd like to talk a little bitabout just the workforce in
general, but first maybestarting with those who are just
entering the workforce.
This is an interesting time tojust to be entering the
workforce.
But if you were entering theworkforce today, what advice
(13:59):
would you give yourself and whatadvice would you give our
members who are just startingtheir career?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So I think a couple of things.
I think first, I would saymaybe three things.
One is that to really take amoment and realize how
leadership is a privilege.
You know, it is indeed aprivilege, and all of us are
leaders.
We are leaders either at home,in our personal lives, with our
friends, in our communities orin the business world, and
(14:30):
indeed it is a privilege becauseit gives us the unique
opportunity to be a forcemultiplier for good, because it
gives us the unique opportunityto be a force multiplier for
good, which means that, if wewant, we can impact people,
community, planet and enterprise.
So it's a privilege andtherefore it's something that is
very precious, that one mustactually prepare for and do
(14:51):
extremely well with.
So I would say that's the firstthing, that listen, this is a
very noble cause of leadershipis indeed a privilege.
The second thing is, I thinkit's almost like the way in
which you can prepare for theworld that is unfolding around
us, which is, you know, sodynamic and so chaotic and so
(15:13):
volatile right now.
There are two master habits thatI want to share with everybody,
just like going to the gym ifyou practice these every day,
you will be a successful leaderwho can fulfill this act of, and
this calling for of being aprivilege.
The first one is curiosity oflearning, and learning is a
(15:37):
muscle, by the way, and if youtherefore a simple way to do it
is every day, if you try andlearn something that you find
interesting but extremelydifficult.
It could be AI, it could betechnology, it could be music
production, it could besongwriting, it could be
learning a new language,anything that you find difficult
(15:58):
, but you've thought about doingit every day and just going
through the cycle of discipline,of learning, I think, is such
an important trait for thefuture.
So I would say curiositybuilding, curiosity, muscle.
And the third thing that Iwanted to share is resilience
muscle, just like going to thegym.
(16:20):
Resilience, tenacity,perseverance is another muscle,
and a simple way to do it isthat whenever you think
something is important and youdon't feel like doing it, do it.
So, whether it is about eatinghealthy and you're reaching out
for that cookie, don't, or it isthat you've committed to
(16:41):
yourself that I'm gonna go outand run every day for at least
half an hour and it's rainingoutside and it's cold and
there's a great Netflix show,and that a thousand and one
reasons why you shouldn't bedoing it.
Do it right, get yourheadphones out, put your
raincoat on and go out, andthose little victories of having
(17:01):
the mental discipline andstrength to do what you think is
important and to persevere isagain a habit.
So I would say those threethings.
It's a privilege.
And then exercise yourcuriosity, exercise resilience.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Let me dig in a little bit more on maybe a more
practical aspect of just theworkforce.
So most of us are working inorganizations where there are
multiple generations.
In many organizations there'sfive.
I've actually worked in one ortwo where there were five
(17:39):
generations and if you thinkabout that, I mean that spans a
lot.
With those multiple generationsthere are differences, maybe in
perspective, on a number ofthings things like the meaning
of work, things like what roledoes work serve in your life,
(18:01):
things about flexibility, thingsabout what is leadership really
, what is it really?
All of those things differences.
If we're working inorganizations where there are
those multiple generations, whatadvice would you have to sort
(18:24):
of bridge those things for thebetterment of the organization?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
This is such a good question and I hadn't quite
realized it in the way in whichyou framed it, which is so true,
and as you were saying it, Iwas saying OK, so who are these
generations?
So you have the boomers, andthe boomers come in with, of
course, experience.
Then you have the Gen X.
They come with sort ofpractical advice and experiences
(18:51):
.
When you have the millennials,they come with a desire for
purpose.
And then you have the Gen Zs.
They're coming with all thebold questions.
So they're all sort of you know, coming with what's important
to them.
I think a great metaphor isthink of a rock band.
So think this is a rock bandhappening and each person has
their own place, like one's adrummer, one's a bassist and a
(19:11):
guitarist, one's a singer.
Each one has their individualstrengths and you have to
somehow, as a leader, you're theconductor and you have to make
sure that the music that theyproduce, it resonates with the
world and not a few people.
But that I mean that itshouldn't be acid rock, like
acid rock only appeals to a few,but it should be like the
(19:34):
Beatles.
You know that everybody lovesand that kind of cuts across
everyone.
So the question is how do youreally do that?
You know, how do you make musicwith people who are individuals
and you basically driveindividual excellence or
individual desire forfulfillment and collective
(19:55):
excellence.
You know they're individuallygreat as musicians but they want
to be collectively.
They had to be much, muchbigger.
And I think the so it's nolonger sort of one size fits all
, you know, like one way ofdoing it, kind of one size fits
one type of mindset.
And I was thinking so what doesthat mean practically?
(20:17):
How do you really make surethat the music is like the
Beatles and not acid rock?
And I think there are threethings I want to offer that the
way the song is written, for itto be a global hit.
First, I think there should beclarity about the mission, like
why are all of us here together?
(20:38):
What are we trying to do?
The second is an opportunityfor personal mastery.
If I become part of this band,can I keep improving and be
fulfilled as a human, as anindividual?
Do I have chances andopportunities to train and
become better?
So mastery.
And the third is collectively,could we become multipliers for
(21:02):
good?
Could we collectively servepeople, community, planet, make
more money, enterpriseshareholders make, serve all our
shareholders and make themhappy.
So I think, if the song sheethas mission and it has mastery
and it has multiplier, I thinkyou have a great chance to make
(21:24):
that music almost iconic, youknow.
So that's what comes to my mind, and therefore a leader's job
is to create an environmentwhere he has those three things.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, I love your music metaphors and you
mentioned it a bit, but I happento know that you are a musician
, you're a singer, you're amusician and all that it sounds
like music has informed yourcareer in some way.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat, if it has.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know music.
So I've been playing for about35 years and it's quite funny
how it first started.
I met my wife when she was 14years old I was 16 in school.
I saw her and the minute I sawher I fell in love.
And she did not.
And I told her.
I said you're going to marry me?
She said you're mad, I willnever marry you.
(22:19):
And then I had to sort of learnthe guitar to try and impress
her, which didn't work, by theway, but I ended up learning the
guitar.
And so it started with just mydesire to sort of land the woman
that I love, and then I becamejust so committed and devoted to
music because I think to meagain, it's like a metaphor of
(22:42):
life.
It's about, you know, like it'sthe individual discipline to
keep sort of going deep withinyou to discover new levels of
excellence and then to producesomething that connect and
inspire other people that you'replaying for.
And I think that's a metaphorfor being a human being, a
leader and being a musician.
(23:04):
And therefore for me it's avery sort of a true reflection
of how I wish to be, which iskeep going within me, be a
lifelong learner, keep trying toimprove who I am me be a
lifelong learner.
Keep trying to improve who I amand then be able to connect
with others and to inspire themto become the best version of
persons that they can also, inturn, become.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, that's lovely.
That's lovely.
Let's switch gears yet again,and this is something that I
think we're living every day.
There's more in the news aboutthis every day.
Many of us are not sure how tofeel about this but it's the
(23:43):
so-called America Firstnarrative, this strategy around
tariffs and domestic-onlyproduction, and wondering where
are we around global affairs andglobal trade, et cetera, what?
I guess I'm not asking you tolook into your crystal ball, but
(24:08):
maybe I am.
And what's what?
How is this going to turn out?
How is this?
How should we be thinking aboutthis?
Uh, do you have any, any, anythoughts to help us, help guide
us as we, as we live this?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
uh, live this thing out I love the little messages
that are popping up and andclearly it's a topic we're going
there we are going right inthere straight in the trenches I
love, I love it too there'snothing to move this, like we
have to talk about this and, ofcourse, it's such an important
(24:44):
thing.
um, you know, we, I believe thatwe're living in a very, uh,
dynamic world.
It's uh, it's volatile, it'sunpredictable, um, and it's a
world of poly crisis if youthink about it.
And this is one of thoseelements.
But if you think about it, stepback and say, well, you know,
there's a there's aunprecedented level of
(25:06):
challenges, whether it is aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion,
climate technology, you know,risks of technology, all of them
.
There's significant sort ofchallenges that we in fact,
there's some sort of a trustdeficit in the world around.
So there are many challenges,but I passionately believe that
(25:26):
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming, if
we all go, the solution, Ibelieve, doesn't lie outside of
us.
It lies actually within us.
And if we go back to our owncore values, it can help give us
more clarity.
So, for example, if we gothrough the value, to address
(25:49):
hate with compassion, to addresslack of understanding with
curiosity, lack of understandingwith curiosity, to address
climate change with a sense ofresponsibility, to address the
(26:11):
risks of technology with agreater sense of morality and
what's right and what'soptimistic.
I think leaders have to bepeddlers of hope.
We have to be optimistic, youknow, and optimism is an
infinitely better universe tolive in.
So that's the first thing.
(26:31):
Right, look for opportunitiesin a crisis is the first thing.
The second thing is at least Ifind that you know that whenever
we feel that, how can this be,how can people think this, or
how can globalization not beright, any sort of when it kind
(26:55):
of things that really don't makesense to us, I think at that
time reminding ourselves to becurious and reminding ourselves
to say that truth does not liein extremities.
Truth very often lies in themiddle, you know, and maybe the
(27:18):
reason for our dissonance isthat perhaps we don't understand
.
Could that be?
And I think, just for a moment,stepping back and at least
trying to understand analternative point of view can be
quite powerful.
So, for example, in what wetalked about, there is, of
course, the truth thatglobalization will lift all
(27:40):
boats, right, and that was thewhole argument.
But challenge it yourself andsay did globalization lift all
boats equally?
Just for a moment, think thatand explore that, and it'll give
you a very differentperspective of what reality
might be, and then you mightrealize that truth is not at
extremities, it's probablysomewhere in the middle, and
(28:02):
it'll give us a betterunderstanding of what is going
on, as opposed to feelingcompletely helpless.
So I think that's the secondthing, which is curiosity, right
.
So first is optimism, second iscuriosity, and the third thing,
I think, is when I feel veryoverwhelmed with what's
happening around me, I justembrace.
(28:23):
I embrace the value of courage,which is okay.
I can't really influence theworld around me.
What can I influence and whatcan I change, and what is it
that I can do, not what otherpeople should be doing?
So, as a leader, I need to makesure that my company stays
(28:47):
innovative and stays competitive.
Now, as this landscape changes,is there an opportunity to be
innovative?
Hell, yes, I mean there is evenmore need to be innovated in
this complicated world, like howwill I actually build supply
chains globally that are moreresilient with this new world
(29:10):
order?
I have to be very innovative.
And then even things like beingcompetitive how might I use
more technology to drive highlevels of productivity is still
very relevant.
So I don't think it is binary.
You know this innovation andcompetitiveness and the external
change in policy.
I would say of course there arelinkages, but as leaders
(29:33):
there's very little we can dowith policy, but there's
everything that we can do oninnovation and competitive
behavior.
In fact, very often I askmyself and I remind myself that,
listen, there's very littlethat I can control in the world
around me, but I can completelycontrol the world that I steward
, in, the company that I happento lead to lead.
(29:59):
And why can't I make thatcompany, that community, that
family, a shining example of theworld that I want to see, which
is inclusive, embracing,respectful, compassionate and
caring, and perhaps, and justperhaps, that each one of us
were to do that and have thatmindset of I'm going to make my
world a shining example of theworld I wish to see.
Perhaps you will start, youknow, creating ripples of change
(30:22):
.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Eden, that is so helpful and you know, as leaders
, as board members, we're allkind of grappling with what do
we do, how do we do it, what canwe control, what can we not
control?
I've been feverishly takingnotes because what you're saying
is so profound.
Let's stay on in our companies,et cetera, and how we're
(30:52):
thinking about some of thethings that are values that,
frankly, you know, I don't thinkwe ever thought of them as
(31:15):
controversial, but they arebeing politicized to some degree
and even outright challenged,et cetera.
But how do we give us somenuggets around, how we think
about staying true to thosevalues and ensuring that those
(31:39):
values still exist in ourorganizations that we have held
dear for maybe forever for mostpeople?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
for maybe forever for most people.
Yeah, I think such an importantquestion again, and I think the
only way to ensure that ourvalues and the ones that you
mentioned around greater senseof responsibility and inclusion,
a sense of service to people,community, planet, the only way
that these values are going tobe bulletproof is if we embrace
(32:13):
a new model of capitalism.
And this new model ofcapitalism is one in which
there's a virtuous cycle betweenpurpose and profit, where we
actually drive profitability,because without profitability
there can be no purpose.
So we drive profitabilitythrough innovation, through
(32:39):
being more competitive, butpurpose in turn should also
drive profitability.
Purpose cannot be random actsof charity.
Purpose has to be profitaccretive, because only then,
when that connection happens,will we get support from our
(33:01):
boards, from our shareholders,from our stakeholders, and
capital will continue to flow tothe company, because whatever
we are doing in terms of good isreinforcing the brand and
strengthening the business modeland therefore, this building,
this flywheel of do good andservice and serve all our
(33:25):
stakeholders, our people, ourcommunity planet, but, most
importantly, our shareholders.
Our shareholders must be servedand their primary requirement,
of course, is return on capital.
Rightly so, because it's theirmoney and therefore the
challenge is can purpose beprofit-accretive, for it to be
sustainable?
(33:45):
And I would say yes, it isdifficult but it must be and it
can be done, and I'll give you afew examples.
And I think the only way to makeprofit, have a virtuous cycle
with purpose is to lead throughour values.
So when we lead through ourvalues, it elevates our ambition
(34:20):
on what we want to do in ourbroader community, with our
people and our planet, and alsohelps strengthen our business
model.
So just bear with me for aminute and I'll explain how.
So imagine that the enterprisevalue is like a stick, and the
longer that the stick is, themore enterprise value you create
.
So the job of a leader is tomake sure that the stick becomes
longer and longer and thereforeyou're able to create more
enterprise value, then have morecapital that's attracted to the
(34:43):
business and you're able tosustain profit and purpose.
So let's the question is canpurpose be profit accretive?
So I'll give you a few examplesaround how it can the two ends
of the stick.
The top end of the stick iscustomer value proposition.
Bottom end of the stick isemployee value proposition.
(35:04):
So if what it means is that ifwe do purposeful activities that
strengthen the customer valueproposition.
It gives us pricing power andtherefore that stick can move up
If we do things to strengthenemployee value proposition.
It strengthens retention,engagement, higher productivity,
(35:25):
costs go down and that stickelongates.
So two specific examples ofboth so in the customer value
proposition at Panera, forexample, we made the climate
footprint on our food visibleand transparent to all customers
.
Right, I don't know if you guyshave seen it, but we have
something called cool foods inPanera and these are climately
(35:48):
responsible products.
Now, once we do that, will itstrengthen our customer value
proposition?
Absolutely.
Will customers be willing topay more price because this is
climately responsible?
I think so, and therefore thetop end of that goes up.
Similarly, on the employee valueproposition you know the
pandemic happened and we had tofurlough about 25,000 people and
(36:13):
instead of just furloughingthem, we spoke to CVS and
Walmart and asked them to hireour people, because they were
actually hiring a lot of people.
So we said we are furloughingabout 25,000 people, can you
employ them temporarily and givethem back?
So that you must be crazy.
We're not giving them back, but, yes, we'll offer them
(36:37):
employment.
So if you do that, you'redemonstrating to your employees
that you matter, I care for you,and once you do that, you build
trust and you build trust.
They deepen engagement, reduceturnover, increase productivity
and lower costs.
And therefore, these twopurpose-led activities of caring
for climate gives you pricingpower.
This purpose-led activity ofcaring for your people gives you
greater efficiency andtherefore it increases your
(37:00):
enterprise value.
And because it increasesenterprise value, yes, now the
board is saying, yeah, okay,that makes sense Because you're
strengthening the business modeland your activities for good
and purpose are connected withthe business.
They're not just random acts ofcharity.
So that's, I think, what isrequired.
It's a new business model ofprofit and purpose which then
(37:23):
becomes independent of anythingelse that is happening in the
world around us, because thereis the shareholders, there's the
capital, there's the businessactivity, there's enterprise
value creation and on thatroadmap, you also have people,
community and climate.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah, that's very insightful, neeraj.
I mentioned earlier that I knowpeople who worked in
organizations that you've ledand what's interesting is some
of them are frontline employees,some of them are middle
managers, some of them areexecutives, and they all do say
(38:08):
the same thing about you andyour leadership.
And I've been around this thinglong enough to know that that's
pretty rare.
You might get one of thosegroups to say something nice
about the top executive, butwhat about your leadership and
the way you think of theemployee, value proposition and
(38:28):
culture do you think hascontributed to that kind of
reaction and that kind ofreputation that you have
garnered from all of thosedifferent groups in each of
those companies?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
So, beverly, firstly, thank you for sharing that.
That means the world to me.
You know, I really believe that, as leaders, the only legacy
that truly matters is peoplelegacy.
When people can turn around andsay, well, you know, you sort
of influenced me, impacted me tobe just a little bit better, I
think there's no highercompliment.
Enterprise legacies are, youknow, transient, everybody can
(39:08):
do better than what you did.
But I think people legacy ismore enduring and therefore more
important.
I would say that it's it's kindof this mindset of the, of
thinking of leadership as aprivilege of being, you know,
like, really looking after andcaring and being responsible for
the people in your care andtaking that very seriously, and
(39:30):
and, and, and, and and.
Therefore this having this kindof almost like a servant
mindset, of like I'm here toserve the people who are
eventually serving my customers,and if I love and care for the
people who are in my care, theywill pass that forward to
customers who will eventuallycome back more frequently and
therefore that makes businesssense.
So I think it is not only apersonal conviction and I just
(39:53):
love people.
It's the most inspiring thingin the world is just to connect
with people.
I think that's what matters most.
So, apart from that, just mypersonal wiring of loving people
, I think even business it makesbusiness sense that if you love
your people and they are happyand engaged, they will then take
(40:15):
care of customers who are thenhappy and satisfied, engaged,
who will then come back, and ifthey come back, you will make
more revenue and drive moreprofits and eventually be more
successful.
So, and you know my commitment,like I said in my next chapter,
my mission is to be somebodywho helps unlock human potential
.
I'm not committing myself fulltime to do that and, as you
(40:37):
mentioned, in various differentways, so it's like a calling for
me, like which is, you know, mypurpose to be is to actually
help other people be the bestversions of who they can be.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
Help other people be the best versions of who they
can be.
You know, one of the thingsthat you know when I was an
executive, I, you know, in mylater years reported to the CEO
and was often sort of theconfidant of the CEO etc.
(41:11):
And one of the things they,without exception, say is just
lonely as the CEO, I mean, theydon't have peers and they have
so much pressure from so manyconstituents.
I'm just curious in yourexecutive coaching, do you coach
CEOs?
Because for my purpose, for mypart, I think CEOs need someone
(41:37):
to talk to, someone to sharewith someone who has been in
their shoes.
Just a plug for you and yourbusiness to coach some CEOs,
because I do think people workfor people and if the CEO and
everybody that he or she reports, you know, reports to that
(41:58):
person, it matters, it willmatter in the organization
tremendously.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, but you know.
But I had another realizationas I'm pivoting from being a
practitioner to now wanting tobe a catalyst to unlock
potential.
As a practitioner, as a CEO,you're expected to always have
the answers and even when youdon't have the answers, you're
(42:31):
expected to have some answers.
And I realize now I need tohave the questions.
I don't have to have theanswers are incredibly powerful
to help people find their ownanswers in their own way, which,
(42:56):
of course, I think is richerdevelopmentally than being given
the answers.
I'm finding that journey to beabsolutely fascinating and I'm
really digging deep into thatand saying, okay, how can I
become better at holding myselfback and really giving the space
and the opportunity for thecoachee to explore and find
(43:19):
their own sort of inner strengthand who they are and keep
developing?
And I find that to be anabsolutely fascinating journey.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yes, yes.
Let me pivot back to Aisha.
If she were here today, what doyou think she would say about
our world and how might thatinfluence?
Kind of, what you're doing isshaping the minds of our future
(43:51):
leaders.
What would she say?
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, aisha, like I was saying earlier, she had
these three values of courage,of keep focusing on what you can
do and not what's happening toyou, but also of gratitude and
generosity, as Aisha lay dyingin her bed in the last couple of
months when she wrote this book, my Little Epiphanies.
In that book she writes aboutyou know reasons to be grateful,
(44:22):
and she wrote that she wasgrateful that she could still
hear the sound of her mother'slaughter and that she could
still breathe and she still wasalive.
She was grateful for that.
So I think Ayesha would saylisten, just zoom out a little
(44:42):
bit and see the world in itsfull glory and find ways there's
.
there are a billion reasons tobe grateful and I think don't
lose perspective of that.
So I think each one of us onthis call, I think, if you
really think about it, there area gazillion reasons for us to
(45:04):
be grateful.
I think we just forget it andwe just lock and load on
something that might be moretroubling us.
So that's one.
The second is, you know, when Ilost Aisha, I lost myself and I
found it very, very hard toexist and to move forward and I
(45:28):
was looking for answers.
And when I do that, I often,you know, like many of us, open
the Bible or whatever.
People have different religiousbeliefs I have.
I go to Aisha's book and I openit, hoping that she'll talk to
me, and I read the following inher book, which said if you
can't change your own life,there's always someone else's.
(45:50):
And she wrote that in her book,which said if you can't change
your own life, there's alwayssomeone else's.
And she wrote that in her bookand that kind of stayed with me
that you know like I can findhealing by living a life of
generosity.
There are always people who areless privileged, less fortunate
, who have infinitely less thanwhat we have and how might I
(46:13):
actually be of service?
How can I help, inspire andserve those who need it the most
?
So I would think that's whatshe would remind us of.
Is that zoom out, be gratefuland find somebody that you can
help?
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Beautiful.
I'll close our prepared kind oftalk on that.
I see a couple questions in thechat for you.
One of them is just thinking ofyou yourself as a
first-generation immigrant, justthinking of you yourself as a
first-generation immigrant howdo you feel about sort of the
(46:56):
current immigration policy thatwe are experiencing and how can
we, how should we be thinkingabout that?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
You know, it's kind of again colored by my values.
I have deep gratitude to thiscountry.
You know, like I was given theopportunity, I was embraced and
(47:30):
I'm living the life that I am.
The second thing I feel is thatit is also incumbent upon
people who are coming in toreally, you know, do their very
best to assimilate.
And you know, when I lived inHolland for five years, I lived
in Germany for five years.
(47:51):
I lived in different cultures,I worked, you know I've lived in
six countries, worked across 50.
And I felt that the best way toconnect is to really first
demonstrate respect for theculture in which you're going
into, by learning the language,by learning for the culture in
which you're going into, bylearning the language, by
learning about the culture, bytruly being respectful.
(48:13):
And I think I feel thatwhatever one wants, one must be
prepared to be.
If I want respect, I must berespectful.
If I want to be embraced, Imust be embracing.
If I want friends, I must be afriend.
And I think we can all learnfrom that.
And I think it's good to beopen-minded and look at the
(48:47):
extremities and say what if thiswas true?
What if that was true?
And then find our whole.
The measure of truth is alwayssomewhere in the middle.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is very complicatedand it's definitely above my pay
grade, erica, do I see anyother?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
new questions.
There was one that was askingif you have a podcast.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
No, I don't have a podcast.
I think it's a good idea.
I wanted to just, since this isa group of leaders women
leaders if I may, I wanted tojust share some thoughts there
and I wanted to share with allof you that I'm writing two
books.
One book is called EverythingChanges, that who we are is not
(49:34):
a function of what happens to us, but how we respond to what
happens to us.
And how we respond to whathappens to us is a function of
how we speak to ourselves.
You know, the person we speakto the most is ourselves, of how
we speak to ourselves.
You know, the person we speakto the most is ourselves, and
very often what we say toourselves is pretty damn
negative.
And I think the self-voice andthe conversation can either be
(49:55):
uplifting or be a critic.
And I'm unpacking that in thatbook Everything Changes.
And the second book is calledthe Three of Life.
The Three of Life there arethree things to do to live a
life of legacy and impact,self-mastery, trust and then
impacting the world.
So those, both of thoseprojects are underway.
Once my books, you know, arefinally published, etc.
(50:18):
Then I'll probably build sortof a 360 around that in a way
that one can speak about it andshare some of the insights,
because I'm a deep believer thatI must share what I have
learned so that you don't haveto go through what I went
through to learn what I have.
You know.
And I think and I want to sortof leave that behind and and
(50:42):
there are plenty of comments inthe chat saying that one.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
You do need a podcast and when you do release your
books, we would love to have youback to talk about those books.
Maybe do like a little quickread before we have you and then
ask you questions about them.
There was another question inthe chat that I want to chime in
because I think it's important,and it was from Michelle, and
(51:07):
it says is it scary or does ittake practice to transition from
the answer person to thequestion person as you grow in
your own journey?
A great question.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
It is monumentally scary and you know, change and
transition is always scary.
You know, like when I stoppedbeing the CEO and I became
chairman and then when I juststopped off the chairman, you
know I had sort of you know,real sort of emotional roller
coaster around.
Is this the end?
(51:40):
And is and is who I am definedby what I do?
And is my self-worth defined bymy job title?
And now that I'm no longerholding the job title, will I
treat myself differently?
Will my wife treat medifferently?
(52:00):
Will my children treat medifferently?
Will my friends treat medifferently?
And you have that innerconversation.
And then, finally, after muchinner turmoil, I started telling
myself no, your self-worth isnot what you do, but it's who
you are.
I didn't believe it at first,but I kept saying it to myself
(52:28):
and then I said, you know, who Iam can be infinitely accretive
I can.
It's just kind of a role I'mplaying in a movie set that I
was letting a company nowchairman this and that, and now
I'm just me and I want to be acoach, I want to be a book
writer, I want to go and teachclasses at Harvard or Kellogg,
you know, I want to be on a fewboards.
It's a different role that I'mplaying and I think I've always
(52:51):
been inspired by reinvention andlearning.
I feel scared, but then Iembrace the learning.
Once I embrace the learning,then I get inspired.
So I think for me the processis always like oh my God, I
don't think I can do it.
What can I do?
You know I'm losing this andthen say, okay, I'm going to
just jump into it and I'm goingto learn and be the very best I
(53:15):
can be at whatever I choose todo, you know.
So that then kind of fuels me.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I love that.
I love that because it's notonly at the end of one's career
right, but as we experiencecareer transitions, whether
they're planned or unplanned, aswe take breaks from our career
to care for loved ones or forwhatever reason, it's so
important not to attach ourwhole identity into a job title
(53:43):
or into a project, or even youknow there are many business
owners here.
So even with your business,because if that business fails,
or even if it succeed and youhave to sell it and your whole
identity is attached to thatcompany.
So I just think that what yousaid and how you're closing us
is so impactful.
Thank you.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with a friend and don't
(54:06):
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
You know, I believe that we're living in a very
dynamic world.
It's volatile, it'sunpredictable and it's a world
of poly-crisis, if you thinkabout it.
And this is one of thoseelements.
But if you think about it, stepback and say well, you know,
there's an unprecedented levelof challenges, whether it is
(00:21):
about diversity, equity,inclusion, climate technology,
you know, risks of technology,all of them.
There's significant sort ofchallenges that we in fact,
there's some sort of a trustdeficit in the world around.
So there are many challenges,but I passionately believe that
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming,
(00:44):
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming, if
we all go, the solution, Ibelieve, doesn't lie outside of
us.
It lies actually within us.
And if we go back to our owncore values, with compassion, to
(01:05):
address lack of understanding,with curiosity, to address
climate change, with a sense ofresponsibility, to address the
risks of technology, with agreater sense of morality and
what's right and what's wrong, Ibelieve these challenges can
become unique opportunities.
It is our job as leaders toalways be optimistic.
(01:28):
Leaders have to be peddlers ofhope.
We have to be optimistic, youknow, and optimism is an
infinitely better universe tolive in.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In this episode we sit down with Niren Chaudhary,
chairman and CEO of Panera Bread, and best member Beverly
Carmichael, a seasoned corporateboard director for several
iconic brands.
Together, we explore thegrowing demand for empathetic
leadership, especially intoday's volatile and uncertain
landscape.
From navigatingmulti-generational workspaces to
(02:01):
staying grounded in values likecompassion, equity and
responsibility, we shareinsights as to how leaders and
board members can remainprincipled even as these values
are increasingly politicized andchallenged.
For our guest's full bio andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco
(02:22):
forward slash podcast.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with best members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
If I could, I'd like to start with something that I
guess is, uh, it is personal toyou, and that is your daughter
Aisha's story.
Her story has really touched somany lives, has even been the
basis of a Bollywood film, theSky is Pink.
Many people probably have seenit or heard of it, but for those
(03:02):
who aren't familiar, just tellus about Aisha, her journey, her
story and how she has inspiredyou in your leadership and in
your life.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you for asking that question, so I think for
everybody else.
Aisha, my daughter, was 18years old when she passed away a
few years back of a fibroticlung, which is essentially a
hardening of the lung, and shewas 13 when she received the
diagnosis that she had only fiveyears to live.
(03:33):
But what is amazing is that herresponse and attitude was well,
at least I have five years tolive.
And she lived at such intensitythat she had gratitude for what
she had and not despair forwhat she was losing, and made
the best of the gifts that werethere available to her and made
(03:55):
every single day count, in everymoment magical.
She continues to inspire me andI love talking about her any
opportunity and she achieved somuch despite how little she had,
and she certainly achievedinfinitely more than many of us
(04:17):
would achieve in a lifetime.
Let me share some of.
Let me brag a little bit aboutmy daughter.
You know she was a TED Talkspeaker.
She's got two talks on YouTube,over a million hits each.
A motivational speaker, she'sthe author of a best-selling
book called my Little Epiphanies.
It's on Amazon.
(04:37):
There's a movie, as Beverlymentioned, inspired by her life
and her incredible spirit,called the Sky is Pink on
Netflix, and there is also adocumentary that we released to
honor her, called Black SunshineBaby, on Netflix.
All of this in the span of lessthan 18 years is absolutely
(05:01):
astounding that she achieved somuch despite how little she had,
and I think the reason why shewas able to achieve so much was
because of the innate wisdomthat she got.
When many of us do, when we areconfronting death, when we're
(05:22):
confronting the end, I think wesuddenly have an epiphany about
what's truly important, and asdid my daughter, and she sort of
really had clarity around whatwas truly important to her in
that moment, when she knew thatshe had only five years to live.
(05:43):
And her story is about thosethree values that I have since
then embraced, and I hope, ifthese resonate with you, you
will too.
The first value is aboutcourage, which is let's focus on
what we can control and notwhat's happening to us, and she
lived her life on that basis.
(06:03):
I'm going to just celebratewhat I have and do with what I
have, instead of despairing forwhat I have lost.
The second is gratitude thatthere is always something in
life to be grateful for, andlet's remember to just honor the
many gifts that we have in thisprecious short tenure of life
(06:25):
that has been given to us andlive a life celebrating all the
many gifts and not despairingfor the losses that we may have
suffered.
Gratitude and finally, she liveda life basis the value of
generosity, that true happinesslies in helping and giving to
other people, and I think we allrelate to that as human beings.
(06:47):
You know, when we are inservice of other people is truly
when we feel most fulfilled.
So I have, since her passing,embraced these values and it has
truly shaped who I am as I moveforward in life.
Yeah, that's very profound, andjust the thought that all of
that happened who I am as I moveforward in life.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
That's very profound and just the thought that all of
that happened, she was able toaccomplish all of that in 18
years, do you?
As I think about it?
I think we all have some sortof loss in our lives.
How do we?
I mean, yours is very profoundand you really embrace that.
(07:29):
But how do we think about whenwe have loss?
How do we keep from letting itget us down and keeping us down,
particularly as we try to beleaders in our organizations, as
we try to be good mothers,aunts, you know, good family
members?
How do we keep loss fromgetting us down and keeping us
(07:52):
down?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Such an important question and I think my loss has
been pretty extreme, like yousaid.
You know, but there is nobodyon this call who has not lost
something or someone.
I can confidently say that Eachone of us, who nobody on this
call who has not lost somethingor someone, I can confidently
say that Each one of us who's onthis call has experienced loss
of some kind, Something orsomeone.
(08:14):
Everybody.
That's kind of a, you know likean integral part of being human
is to lose, and it's part ofour human experience and our
human journey, no matter who weare, and that inner set is a
common denominator for all of us.
What I have realized is that inthose most hurtful and
(08:35):
vulnerable moments of loss iswhen we can actually learn and
grow the most.
And if we reframe our lossesand an opportunity to become
stronger and better, then it ishas its own use in the way that
(08:56):
it ends up shaping who we are.
So let me just explain.
I really believe that if we,rather than shutting out and
blocking our losses and pain, ifwe open ourselves and embrace
the hurt and allow it to shapewho we are, I believe that we
can walk taller and walk furtherafter every time that we fall
(09:19):
down.
And what I discovered was it'snot easy, of course, and it
takes time, and it takesdifferent amounts of time
depending on what you're dealingwith, but I found that there
are four different things thatone can do to actually allow us
to have our losses shape who weare.
(09:41):
So the four things I want toshare with everybody on the call
First is acceptance, and we allknow the serenity prayer, right
, let me accept and let me havethe strength to accept that that
I cannot change, but I havefound that that is never enough,
and I'm sure many of us havedone that and we ask for
(10:01):
acceptance, but you know what?
Where do we go from there?
The second step, of course, isextremely important, which is
around self forgiveness.
That acceptance is not enough.
Whenever there is a loss ofsome kind, we tend to always
hold ourselves accountable.
(10:22):
Hold ourselves accountable andwe have guilt, and therefore
letting go of that guilt is soimportant.
Therefore, forgiving yourself.
I had to learn to forgive myselffor having failed the two
daughters that I lost.
I felt that I had failed as afather and that what that
self-forgiveness means is andeven though that thought was
(10:43):
irrational what thatself-forgiveness means is you
keep telling yourself you didthe best that you could, I
forgive you.
You did the best that you could, I forgive you.
And after a while you startbelieving it.
You know, initially, of courseyou reject it.
So acceptance, then forgiveness.
But even that forgiveness isnot enough.
(11:04):
I have learned that you need tothen learn to love yourself
again, because you can't give toothers what you don't have and
you're hurting and you'rebruised and you're angry and
you're unhappy.
And you have to learn toactually say, okay, I love you.
And I have to learn to lovemyself again to be able to love
(11:24):
somebody else.
And to me there's a very simpleway of expressing self-love.
You know, all of us have a oneday I will list, which is a mini
bucket list One day I will takethat holiday.
One day I'll fall in love.
One day I will learn thatlanguage.
One day I will learn a musicalinstrument.
One day I will do this and Iwill do that.
(11:44):
And my expression of self-loveis do it now, prioritize it and
make time for yourself.
You want to have that holidaythat you've always wanted.
Do it now, don't wait.
You know you want to learn thatinstrument.
Do it now.
I want to learn that language.
Do it now.
So when I lost Aisha, you'llfind this funny, but number one
(12:13):
on my list was to go to Harvard.
What a strange thing to dreamabout, but I went there.
The second thing on my bucketlist was to release my music.
I'm a musician and I hired amusic studio.
I hired some musicians, playedsome music and I released the
songs on Spotify.
Nobody listens to it, exceptfor my wife, but you know
they're out there.
So acceptance, forgiveness,self love and then, finally,
(12:37):
even that is not enough, because, as human beings, we need hope.
We need hope to get up and towalk again.
We need a purpose, a mission.
You know meaning for our livesand I think that's so important
and that has to.
So my sort of mission andmeaning is to help unlock human
(12:57):
potential, and I wake up everyday, every morning, committed to
make that a reality.
So I think, in summary, I wouldsay loss is an incredible
opportunity for us to becomestronger, to walk taller, to
walk further, if you canremember these four things of
acceptance, forgiveness,self-love and hope.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Wow, you know, if we finished our session right, then
I would feel like this was ahuge success.
Those are things that I will,and I know we all will, carry
forward.
I had never thought about themlike that.
But let's change subjects a bit.
(13:38):
I'd like to talk a little bitabout just the workforce in
general, but first maybestarting with those who are just
entering the workforce.
This is an interesting time tojust to be entering the
workforce.
But if you were entering theworkforce today, what advice
(13:59):
would you give yourself and whatadvice would you give our
members who are just startingtheir career?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So I think a couple of things.
I think first, I would saymaybe three things.
One is that to really take amoment and realize how
leadership is a privilege.
You know, it is indeed aprivilege, and all of us are
leaders.
We are leaders either at home,in our personal lives, with our
friends, in our communities orin the business world, and
(14:30):
indeed it is a privilege becauseit gives us the unique
opportunity to be a forcemultiplier for good, because it
gives us the unique opportunityto be a force multiplier for
good, which means that, if wewant, we can impact people,
community, planet and enterprise.
So it's a privilege andtherefore it's something that is
very precious, that one mustactually prepare for and do
(14:51):
extremely well with.
So I would say that's the firstthing, that listen, this is a
very noble cause of leadershipis indeed a privilege.
The second thing is, I thinkit's almost like the way in
which you can prepare for theworld that is unfolding around
us, which is, you know, sodynamic and so chaotic and so
(15:13):
volatile right now.
There are two master habits thatI want to share with everybody,
just like going to the gym ifyou practice these every day,
you will be a successful leaderwho can fulfill this act of, and
this calling for of being aprivilege.
The first one is curiosity oflearning, and learning is a
(15:37):
muscle, by the way, and if youtherefore a simple way to do it
is every day, if you try andlearn something that you find
interesting but extremelydifficult.
It could be AI, it could betechnology, it could be music
production, it could besongwriting, it could be
learning a new language,anything that you find difficult
(15:58):
, but you've thought about doingit every day and just going
through the cycle of discipline,of learning, I think, is such
an important trait for thefuture.
So I would say curiositybuilding, curiosity, muscle.
And the third thing that Iwanted to share is resilience
muscle, just like going to thegym.
(16:20):
Resilience, tenacity,perseverance is another muscle,
and a simple way to do it isthat whenever you think
something is important and youdon't feel like doing it, do it.
So, whether it is about eatinghealthy and you're reaching out
for that cookie, don't, or it isthat you've committed to
(16:41):
yourself that I'm gonna go outand run every day for at least
half an hour and it's rainingoutside and it's cold and
there's a great Netflix show,and that a thousand and one
reasons why you shouldn't bedoing it.
Do it right, get yourheadphones out, put your
raincoat on and go out, andthose little victories of having
(17:01):
the mental discipline andstrength to do what you think is
important and to persevere isagain a habit.
So I would say those threethings.
It's a privilege.
And then exercise yourcuriosity, exercise resilience.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Let me dig in a little bit more on maybe a more
practical aspect of just theworkforce.
So most of us are working inorganizations where there are
multiple generations.
In many organizations there'sfive.
I've actually worked in one ortwo where there were five
(17:39):
generations and if you thinkabout that, I mean that spans a
lot.
With those multiple generationsthere are differences, maybe in
perspective, on a number ofthings things like the meaning
of work, things like what roledoes work serve in your life,
(18:01):
things about flexibility, thingsabout what is leadership really
, what is it really?
All of those things differences.
If we're working inorganizations where there are
those multiple generations, whatadvice would you have to sort
(18:24):
of bridge those things for thebetterment of the organization?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
This is such a good question and I hadn't quite
realized it in the way in whichyou framed it, which is so true,
and as you were saying it, Iwas saying OK, so who are these
generations?
So you have the boomers, andthe boomers come in with, of
course, experience.
Then you have the Gen X.
They come with sort ofpractical advice and experiences
(18:51):
.
When you have the millennials,they come with a desire for
purpose.
And then you have the Gen Zs.
They're coming with all thebold questions.
So they're all sort of you know, coming with what's important
to them.
I think a great metaphor isthink of a rock band.
So think this is a rock bandhappening and each person has
their own place, like one's adrummer, one's a bassist and a
(19:11):
guitarist, one's a singer.
Each one has their individualstrengths and you have to
somehow, as a leader, you're theconductor and you have to make
sure that the music that theyproduce, it resonates with the
world and not a few people.
But that I mean that itshouldn't be acid rock, like
acid rock only appeals to a few,but it should be like the
(19:34):
Beatles.
You know that everybody lovesand that kind of cuts across
everyone.
So the question is how do youreally do that?
You know, how do you make musicwith people who are individuals
and you basically driveindividual excellence or
individual desire forfulfillment and collective
(19:55):
excellence.
You know they're individuallygreat as musicians but they want
to be collectively.
They had to be much, muchbigger.
And I think the so it's nolonger sort of one size fits all
, you know, like one way ofdoing it, kind of one size fits
one type of mindset.
And I was thinking so what doesthat mean practically?
(20:17):
How do you really make surethat the music is like the
Beatles and not acid rock?
And I think there are threethings I want to offer that the
way the song is written, for itto be a global hit.
First, I think there should beclarity about the mission, like
why are all of us here together?
(20:38):
What are we trying to do?
The second is an opportunityfor personal mastery.
If I become part of this band,can I keep improving and be
fulfilled as a human, as anindividual?
Do I have chances andopportunities to train and
become better?
So mastery.
And the third is collectively,could we become multipliers for
(21:02):
good?
Could we collectively servepeople, community, planet, make
more money, enterpriseshareholders make, serve all our
shareholders and make themhappy.
So I think, if the song sheethas mission and it has mastery
and it has multiplier, I thinkyou have a great chance to make
(21:24):
that music almost iconic, youknow.
So that's what comes to my mind, and therefore a leader's job
is to create an environmentwhere he has those three things.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, I love your music metaphors and you
mentioned it a bit, but I happento know that you are a musician
, you're a singer, you're amusician and all that it sounds
like music has informed yourcareer in some way.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat, if it has.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know music.
So I've been playing for about35 years and it's quite funny
how it first started.
I met my wife when she was 14years old I was 16 in school.
I saw her and the minute I sawher I fell in love.
And she did not.
And I told her.
I said you're going to marry me?
She said you're mad, I willnever marry you.
(22:19):
And then I had to sort of learnthe guitar to try and impress
her, which didn't work, by theway, but I ended up learning the
guitar.
And so it started with just mydesire to sort of land the woman
that I love, and then I becamejust so committed and devoted to
music because I think to meagain, it's like a metaphor of
(22:42):
life.
It's about, you know, like it'sthe individual discipline to
keep sort of going deep withinyou to discover new levels of
excellence and then to producesomething that connect and
inspire other people that you'replaying for.
And I think that's a metaphorfor being a human being, a
leader and being a musician.
(23:04):
And therefore for me it's avery sort of a true reflection
of how I wish to be, which iskeep going within me, be a
lifelong learner, keep trying toimprove who I am me be a
lifelong learner.
Keep trying to improve who I amand then be able to connect
with others and to inspire themto become the best version of
persons that they can also, inturn, become.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, that's lovely.
That's lovely.
Let's switch gears yet again,and this is something that I
think we're living every day.
There's more in the news aboutthis every day.
Many of us are not sure how tofeel about this but it's the
(23:43):
so-called America Firstnarrative, this strategy around
tariffs and domestic-onlyproduction, and wondering where
are we around global affairs andglobal trade, et cetera, what?
I guess I'm not asking you tolook into your crystal ball, but
(24:08):
maybe I am.
And what's what?
How is this going to turn out?
How is this?
How should we be thinking aboutthis?
Uh, do you have any, any, anythoughts to help us, help guide
us as we, as we live this?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
uh, live this thing out I love the little messages
that are popping up and andclearly it's a topic we're going
there we are going right inthere straight in the trenches I
love, I love it too there'snothing to move this, like we
have to talk about this and, ofcourse, it's such an important
(24:44):
thing.
um, you know, we, I believe thatwe're living in a very, uh,
dynamic world.
It's uh, it's volatile, it'sunpredictable, um, and it's a
world of poly crisis if youthink about it.
And this is one of thoseelements.
But if you think about it, stepback and say, well, you know,
there's a there's aunprecedented level of
(25:06):
challenges, whether it is aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion,
climate technology, you know,risks of technology, all of them
.
There's significant sort ofchallenges that we in fact,
there's some sort of a trustdeficit in the world around.
So there are many challenges,but I passionately believe that
(25:26):
when the world around us orsituations seem overwhelming, if
we all go, the solution, Ibelieve, doesn't lie outside of
us.
It lies actually within us.
And if we go back to our owncore values, it can help give us
more clarity.
So, for example, if we gothrough the value, to address
(25:49):
hate with compassion, to addresslack of understanding with
curiosity, lack of understandingwith curiosity, to address
climate change with a sense ofresponsibility, to address the
(26:11):
risks of technology with agreater sense of morality and
what's right and what'soptimistic.
I think leaders have to bepeddlers of hope.
We have to be optimistic, youknow, and optimism is an
infinitely better universe tolive in.
So that's the first thing.
(26:31):
Right, look for opportunitiesin a crisis is the first thing.
The second thing is at least Ifind that you know that whenever
we feel that, how can this be,how can people think this, or
how can globalization not beright, any sort of when it kind
(26:55):
of things that really don't makesense to us, I think at that
time reminding ourselves to becurious and reminding ourselves
to say that truth does not liein extremities.
Truth very often lies in themiddle, you know, and maybe the
(27:18):
reason for our dissonance isthat perhaps we don't understand
.
Could that be?
And I think, just for a moment,stepping back and at least
trying to understand analternative point of view can be
quite powerful.
So, for example, in what wetalked about, there is, of
course, the truth thatglobalization will lift all
(27:40):
boats, right, and that was thewhole argument.
But challenge it yourself andsay did globalization lift all
boats equally?
Just for a moment, think thatand explore that, and it'll give
you a very differentperspective of what reality
might be, and then you mightrealize that truth is not at
extremities, it's probablysomewhere in the middle, and
(28:02):
it'll give us a betterunderstanding of what is going
on, as opposed to feelingcompletely helpless.
So I think that's the secondthing, which is curiosity, right
.
So first is optimism, second iscuriosity, and the third thing,
I think, is when I feel veryoverwhelmed with what's
happening around me, I justembrace.
(28:23):
I embrace the value of courage,which is okay.
I can't really influence theworld around me.
What can I influence and whatcan I change, and what is it
that I can do, not what otherpeople should be doing?
So, as a leader, I need to makesure that my company stays
(28:47):
innovative and stays competitive.
Now, as this landscape changes,is there an opportunity to be
innovative?
Hell, yes, I mean there is evenmore need to be innovated in
this complicated world, like howwill I actually build supply
chains globally that are moreresilient with this new world
(29:10):
order?
I have to be very innovative.
And then even things like beingcompetitive how might I use
more technology to drive highlevels of productivity is still
very relevant.
So I don't think it is binary.
You know this innovation andcompetitiveness and the external
change in policy.
I would say of course there arelinkages, but as leaders
(29:33):
there's very little we can dowith policy, but there's
everything that we can do oninnovation and competitive
behavior.
In fact, very often I askmyself and I remind myself that,
listen, there's very littlethat I can control in the world
around me, but I can completelycontrol the world that I steward
, in, the company that I happento lead to lead.
(29:59):
And why can't I make thatcompany, that community, that
family, a shining example of theworld that I want to see, which
is inclusive, embracing,respectful, compassionate and
caring, and perhaps, and justperhaps, that each one of us
were to do that and have thatmindset of I'm going to make my
world a shining example of theworld I wish to see.
Perhaps you will start, youknow, creating ripples of change
(30:22):
.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Eden, that is so helpful and you know, as leaders
, as board members, we're allkind of grappling with what do
we do, how do we do it, what canwe control, what can we not
control?
I've been feverishly takingnotes because what you're saying
is so profound.
Let's stay on in our companies,et cetera, and how we're
(30:52):
thinking about some of thethings that are values that,
frankly, you know, I don't thinkwe ever thought of them as
(31:15):
controversial, but they arebeing politicized to some degree
and even outright challenged,et cetera.
But how do we give us somenuggets around, how we think
about staying true to thosevalues and ensuring that those
(31:39):
values still exist in ourorganizations that we have held
dear for maybe forever for mostpeople?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
for maybe forever for most people.
Yeah, I think such an importantquestion again, and I think the
only way to ensure that ourvalues and the ones that you
mentioned around greater senseof responsibility and inclusion,
a sense of service to people,community, planet, the only way
that these values are going tobe bulletproof is if we embrace
(32:13):
a new model of capitalism.
And this new model ofcapitalism is one in which
there's a virtuous cycle betweenpurpose and profit, where we
actually drive profitability,because without profitability
there can be no purpose.
So we drive profitabilitythrough innovation, through
(32:39):
being more competitive, butpurpose in turn should also
drive profitability.
Purpose cannot be random actsof charity.
Purpose has to be profitaccretive, because only then,
when that connection happens,will we get support from our
(33:01):
boards, from our shareholders,from our stakeholders, and
capital will continue to flow tothe company, because whatever
we are doing in terms of good isreinforcing the brand and
strengthening the business modeland therefore, this building,
this flywheel of do good andservice and serve all our
(33:25):
stakeholders, our people, ourcommunity planet, but, most
importantly, our shareholders.
Our shareholders must be servedand their primary requirement,
of course, is return on capital.
Rightly so, because it's theirmoney and therefore the
challenge is can purpose beprofit-accretive, for it to be
sustainable?
(33:45):
And I would say yes, it isdifficult but it must be and it
can be done, and I'll give you afew examples.
And I think the only way to makeprofit, have a virtuous cycle
with purpose is to lead throughour values.
So when we lead through ourvalues, it elevates our ambition
(34:20):
on what we want to do in ourbroader community, with our
people and our planet, and alsohelps strengthen our business
model.
So just bear with me for aminute and I'll explain how.
So imagine that the enterprisevalue is like a stick, and the
longer that the stick is, themore enterprise value you create
.
So the job of a leader is tomake sure that the stick becomes
longer and longer and thereforeyou're able to create more
enterprise value, then have morecapital that's attracted to the
(34:43):
business and you're able tosustain profit and purpose.
So let's the question is canpurpose be profit accretive?
So I'll give you a few examplesaround how it can the two ends
of the stick.
The top end of the stick iscustomer value proposition.
Bottom end of the stick isemployee value proposition.
(35:04):
So if what it means is that ifwe do purposeful activities that
strengthen the customer valueproposition.
It gives us pricing power andtherefore that stick can move up
If we do things to strengthenemployee value proposition.
It strengthens retention,engagement, higher productivity,
(35:25):
costs go down and that stickelongates.
So two specific examples ofboth so in the customer value
proposition at Panera, forexample, we made the climate
footprint on our food visibleand transparent to all customers
.
Right, I don't know if you guyshave seen it, but we have
something called cool foods inPanera and these are climately
(35:48):
responsible products.
Now, once we do that, will itstrengthen our customer value
proposition?
Absolutely.
Will customers be willing topay more price because this is
climately responsible?
I think so, and therefore thetop end of that goes up.
Similarly, on the employee valueproposition you know the
pandemic happened and we had tofurlough about 25,000 people and
(36:13):
instead of just furloughingthem, we spoke to CVS and
Walmart and asked them to hireour people, because they were
actually hiring a lot of people.
So we said we are furloughingabout 25,000 people, can you
employ them temporarily and givethem back?
So that you must be crazy.
We're not giving them back, but, yes, we'll offer them
(36:37):
employment.
So if you do that, you'redemonstrating to your employees
that you matter, I care for you,and once you do that, you build
trust and you build trust.
They deepen engagement, reduceturnover, increase productivity
and lower costs.
And therefore, these twopurpose-led activities of caring
for climate gives you pricingpower.
This purpose-led activity ofcaring for your people gives you
greater efficiency andtherefore it increases your
(37:00):
enterprise value.
And because it increasesenterprise value, yes, now the
board is saying, yeah, okay,that makes sense Because you're
strengthening the business modeland your activities for good
and purpose are connected withthe business.
They're not just random acts ofcharity.
So that's, I think, what isrequired.
It's a new business model ofprofit and purpose which then
(37:23):
becomes independent of anythingelse that is happening in the
world around us, because thereis the shareholders, there's the
capital, there's the businessactivity, there's enterprise
value creation and on thatroadmap, you also have people,
community and climate.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah, that's very insightful, neeraj.
I mentioned earlier that I knowpeople who worked in
organizations that you've ledand what's interesting is some
of them are frontline employees,some of them are middle
managers, some of them areexecutives, and they all do say
(38:08):
the same thing about you andyour leadership.
And I've been around this thinglong enough to know that that's
pretty rare.
You might get one of thosegroups to say something nice
about the top executive, butwhat about your leadership and
the way you think of theemployee, value proposition and
(38:28):
culture do you think hascontributed to that kind of
reaction and that kind ofreputation that you have
garnered from all of thosedifferent groups in each of
those companies?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
So, beverly, firstly, thank you for sharing that.
That means the world to me.
You know, I really believe that, as leaders, the only legacy
that truly matters is peoplelegacy.
When people can turn around andsay, well, you know, you sort
of influenced me, impacted me tobe just a little bit better, I
think there's no highercompliment.
Enterprise legacies are, youknow, transient, everybody can
(39:08):
do better than what you did.
But I think people legacy ismore enduring and therefore more
important.
I would say that it's it's kindof this mindset of the, of
thinking of leadership as aprivilege of being, you know,
like, really looking after andcaring and being responsible for
the people in your care andtaking that very seriously, and
(39:30):
and, and, and, and and.
Therefore this having this kindof almost like a servant
mindset, of like I'm here toserve the people who are
eventually serving my customers,and if I love and care for the
people who are in my care, theywill pass that forward to
customers who will eventuallycome back more frequently and
therefore that makes businesssense.
So I think it is not only apersonal conviction and I just
(39:53):
love people.
It's the most inspiring thingin the world is just to connect
with people.
I think that's what matters most.
So, apart from that, just mypersonal wiring of loving people
, I think even business it makesbusiness sense that if you love
your people and they are happyand engaged, they will then take
(40:15):
care of customers who are thenhappy and satisfied, engaged,
who will then come back, and ifthey come back, you will make
more revenue and drive moreprofits and eventually be more
successful.
So, and you know my commitment,like I said in my next chapter,
my mission is to be somebodywho helps unlock human potential
.
I'm not committing myself fulltime to do that and, as you
(40:37):
mentioned, in various differentways, so it's like a calling for
me, like which is, you know, mypurpose to be is to actually
help other people be the bestversions of who they can be.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
Help other people be the best versions of who they
can be.
You know, one of the thingsthat you know when I was an
executive, I, you know, in mylater years reported to the CEO
and was often sort of theconfidant of the CEO etc.
(41:11):
And one of the things they,without exception, say is just
lonely as the CEO, I mean, theydon't have peers and they have
so much pressure from so manyconstituents.
I'm just curious in yourexecutive coaching, do you coach
CEOs?
Because for my purpose, for mypart, I think CEOs need someone
(41:37):
to talk to, someone to sharewith someone who has been in
their shoes.
Just a plug for you and yourbusiness to coach some CEOs,
because I do think people workfor people and if the CEO and
everybody that he or she reports, you know, reports to that
(41:58):
person, it matters, it willmatter in the organization
tremendously.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, but you know.
But I had another realizationas I'm pivoting from being a
practitioner to now wanting tobe a catalyst to unlock
potential.
As a practitioner, as a CEO,you're expected to always have
the answers and even when youdon't have the answers, you're
(42:31):
expected to have some answers.
And I realize now I need tohave the questions.
I don't have to have theanswers are incredibly powerful
to help people find their ownanswers in their own way, which,
(42:56):
of course, I think is richerdevelopmentally than being given
the answers.
I'm finding that journey to beabsolutely fascinating and I'm
really digging deep into thatand saying, okay, how can I
become better at holding myselfback and really giving the space
and the opportunity for thecoachee to explore and find
(43:19):
their own sort of inner strengthand who they are and keep
developing?
And I find that to be anabsolutely fascinating journey.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yes, yes.
Let me pivot back to Aisha.
If she were here today, what doyou think she would say about
our world and how might thatinfluence?
Kind of, what you're doing isshaping the minds of our future
(43:51):
leaders.
What would she say?
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, aisha, like I was saying earlier, she had
these three values of courage,of keep focusing on what you can
do and not what's happening toyou, but also of gratitude and
generosity, as Aisha lay dyingin her bed in the last couple of
months when she wrote this book, my Little Epiphanies.
In that book she writes aboutyou know reasons to be grateful,
(44:22):
and she wrote that she wasgrateful that she could still
hear the sound of her mother'slaughter and that she could
still breathe and she still wasalive.
She was grateful for that.
So I think Ayesha would saylisten, just zoom out a little
(44:42):
bit and see the world in itsfull glory and find ways there's
.
there are a billion reasons tobe grateful and I think don't
lose perspective of that.
So I think each one of us onthis call, I think, if you
really think about it, there area gazillion reasons for us to
(45:04):
be grateful.
I think we just forget it andwe just lock and load on
something that might be moretroubling us.
So that's one.
The second is, you know, when Ilost Aisha, I lost myself and I
found it very, very hard toexist and to move forward and I
(45:28):
was looking for answers.
And when I do that, I often,you know, like many of us, open
the Bible or whatever.
People have different religiousbeliefs I have.
I go to Aisha's book and I openit, hoping that she'll talk to
me, and I read the following inher book, which said if you
can't change your own life,there's always someone else's.
(45:50):
And she wrote that in her book,which said if you can't change
your own life, there's alwayssomeone else's.
And she wrote that in her bookand that kind of stayed with me
that you know like I can findhealing by living a life of
generosity.
There are always people who areless privileged, less fortunate
, who have infinitely less thanwhat we have and how might I
(46:13):
actually be of service?
How can I help, inspire andserve those who need it the most
?
So I would think that's whatshe would remind us of.
Is that zoom out, be gratefuland find somebody that you can
help?
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Beautiful.
I'll close our prepared kind oftalk on that.
I see a couple questions in thechat for you.
One of them is just thinking ofyou yourself as a
first-generation immigrant, justthinking of you yourself as a
first-generation immigrant howdo you feel about sort of the
(46:56):
current immigration policy thatwe are experiencing and how can
we, how should we be thinkingabout that?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
You know, it's kind of again colored by my values.
I have deep gratitude to thiscountry.
You know, like I was given theopportunity, I was embraced and
(47:30):
I'm living the life that I am.
The second thing I feel is thatit is also incumbent upon
people who are coming in toreally, you know, do their very
best to assimilate.
And you know, when I lived inHolland for five years, I lived
in Germany for five years.
(47:51):
I lived in different cultures,I worked, you know I've lived in
six countries, worked across 50.
And I felt that the best way toconnect is to really first
demonstrate respect for theculture in which you're going
into, by learning the language,by learning for the culture in
which you're going into, bylearning the language, by
learning about the culture, bytruly being respectful.
(48:13):
And I think I feel thatwhatever one wants, one must be
prepared to be.
If I want respect, I must berespectful.
If I want to be embraced, Imust be embracing.
If I want friends, I must be afriend.
And I think we can all learnfrom that.
And I think it's good to beopen-minded and look at the
(48:47):
extremities and say what if thiswas true?
What if that was true?
And then find our whole.
The measure of truth is alwayssomewhere in the middle.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is very complicatedand it's definitely above my pay
grade, erica, do I see anyother?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
new questions.
There was one that was askingif you have a podcast.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
No, I don't have a podcast.
I think it's a good idea.
I wanted to just, since this isa group of leaders women
leaders if I may, I wanted tojust share some thoughts there
and I wanted to share with allof you that I'm writing two
books.
One book is called EverythingChanges, that who we are is not
(49:34):
a function of what happens to us, but how we respond to what
happens to us.
And how we respond to whathappens to us is a function of
how we speak to ourselves.
You know, the person we speakto the most is ourselves, of how
we speak to ourselves.
You know, the person we speakto the most is ourselves, and
very often what we say toourselves is pretty damn
negative.
And I think the self-voice andthe conversation can either be
(49:55):
uplifting or be a critic.
And I'm unpacking that in thatbook Everything Changes.
And the second book is calledthe Three of Life.
The Three of Life there arethree things to do to live a
life of legacy and impact,self-mastery, trust and then
impacting the world.
So those, both of thoseprojects are underway.
Once my books, you know, arefinally published, etc.
(50:18):
Then I'll probably build sortof a 360 around that in a way
that one can speak about it andshare some of the insights,
because I'm a deep believer thatI must share what I have
learned so that you don't haveto go through what I went
through to learn what I have.
You know.
And I think and I want to sortof leave that behind and and
(50:42):
there are plenty of comments inthe chat saying that one.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
You do need a podcast and when you do release your
books, we would love to have youback to talk about those books.
Maybe do like a little quickread before we have you and then
ask you questions about them.
There was another question inthe chat that I want to chime in
because I think it's important,and it was from Michelle, and
(51:07):
it says is it scary or does ittake practice to transition from
the answer person to thequestion person as you grow in
your own journey?
A great question.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
It is monumentally scary and you know, change and
transition is always scary.
You know, like when I stoppedbeing the CEO and I became
chairman and then when I juststopped off the chairman, you
know I had sort of you know,real sort of emotional roller
coaster around.
Is this the end?
(51:40):
And is and is who I am definedby what I do?
And is my self-worth defined bymy job title?
And now that I'm no longerholding the job title, will I
treat myself differently?
Will my wife treat medifferently?
(52:00):
Will my children treat medifferently?
Will my friends treat medifferently?
And you have that innerconversation.
And then, finally, after muchinner turmoil, I started telling
myself no, your self-worth isnot what you do, but it's who
you are.
I didn't believe it at first,but I kept saying it to myself
(52:28):
and then I said, you know, who Iam can be infinitely accretive
I can.
It's just kind of a role I'mplaying in a movie set that I
was letting a company nowchairman this and that, and now
I'm just me and I want to be acoach, I want to be a book
writer, I want to go and teachclasses at Harvard or Kellogg,
you know, I want to be on a fewboards.
It's a different role that I'mplaying and I think I've always
(52:51):
been inspired by reinvention andlearning.
I feel scared, but then Iembrace the learning.
Once I embrace the learning,then I get inspired.
So I think for me the processis always like oh my God, I
don't think I can do it.
What can I do?
You know I'm losing this andthen say, okay, I'm going to
just jump into it and I'm goingto learn and be the very best I
(53:15):
can be at whatever I choose todo, you know.
So that then kind of fuels me.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I love that.
I love that because it's notonly at the end of one's career
right, but as we experiencecareer transitions, whether
they're planned or unplanned, aswe take breaks from our career
to care for loved ones or forwhatever reason, it's so
important not to attach ourwhole identity into a job title
(53:43):
or into a project, or even youknow there are many business
owners here.
So even with your business,because if that business fails,
or even if it succeed and youhave to sell it and your whole
identity is attached to thatcompany.
So I just think that what yousaid and how you're closing us
is so impactful.
Thank you.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with a friend and don't
(54:06):
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
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