October 20, 2025 • 53 mins
What if the key to moving from stuck to unstoppable isn’t finding your one big purpose but choosing to live with purpose, every day?
In this episode, we sit down with Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action and author of New York Bestseller Fired Up, to explore a practical framework for aligning what you value, what you're good at, and what truly matters to you. She calls it the fire formula, a tool for any stage of life, from early career to midlife reinvention.
We unpack three common myths that hold women back:
- That you need a single, all-consuming calling
- That happiness is the goal
- That constant busyness means you're succeeding
Shannon also shares her playbook for handling blowback when you start showing up differently, how to decide whose feedback matters, what to hold onto, and how to keep going when the discomfort sets in.
You’ll hear actionable strategies for building aligned community, sustaining momentum, and reclaiming your time and voice. We also get into:
- How to navigate professional risks and resistance
- How to build meaningful relationships in midlife
- How to push back against the systems and narratives shaping our democracy
This is a grounded, honest conversation about courage, clarity, and living on your own terms. If you’re ready to stop waiting for permission, this episode offers the tools and the push to start.
Click here for more Show Notes and Guest Bio.
If you enjoy the episode share it with a friend, leave us a review and don't forget to hit the subscribe button.
If you are ready to take your career and business to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Learn more at www.VESTHer.co
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Hey everyone, welcome to the Vester Podcast,
where we share honestconversations, actionable
insights, and real stories tosupport not just your career
growth, but also your lifejourney.
I'm Erica Lucas, your host fortoday.
Let's get started.
At a time when the state of ourdemocracy feels like its own
(00:25):
support and the stakes forwomen's voices have never been
higher.
What does it really mean to livewith purpose?
And how can we find the courageto act on it?
Today's guest, Shannon Watts, isno stranger to that question.
As a founder of Moms DemandAction and one of Time's 100
most influential people, shespent over a decade proving
(00:47):
what's possible when women getfired up and stay fired up, even
when taken on one of the mostpowerful lobbying forces in
America.
In this episode, we talked toShannon about her new book,
Fired Up (00:59):
How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at
Any Age.
And why women must stop waitingfor permission to lead, to speak
up, and to take action.
Even when the blowback is real.
Especially when the blowback isreal.
For our guestful bio and shownotes, go to www.vesther.co
(01:22):
forward slash podcast.
If you enjoyed the episode,share it with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to take yourcareer into the next level, join
our community of womenprofessionals eager to help you
get there and stay there.
Go to www.vesther.co to learnmore.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
(01:44):
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
Yeah, the first question, Ithink a lot of us have read the
book, but some of us haven't,and maybe some listeners that
are tuning in haven't.
So why don't you tell us whatdoes it really mean to live on
fire?
You know, I stepped back fromMomstream Action in 2023 and
(02:06):
really wasn't sure what I wasgoing to do.
I think I thought, oh, I'm goingto take a year-long break.
And I ended up getting a callfrom Maria Shriver, who is a
wonderful human, and she alsohas a book imprint.
And she was a longtime supporterof Momstremain Action.
And she told me that I shouldwrite a book for her imprint,
kind of about what I had learnedthrough my career and my
(02:27):
activism, mostly about workingwith women.
And I took a my some of myfavorite self-help and business
books to my friend Glenn andDoyle's house.
And she looked at me and said,These are very boring.
You are like more of a fierypersonality.
And that really is how themetaphor of fire began.
And the thesis of my book isthat, you know, men are taught
(02:52):
to fulfill their desires andwomen are taught to fulfill
their obligations.
And how do we live a life inwhich we ask ourselves, what do
I want?
And look, I know the reason wedon't ask ourselves that.
It's not because we're weak,it's because we're wise, right?
We know all of the obstaclesthat are in our way.
And we know that if we woke upevery day and asked ourselves,
you know, what do I want?
(03:14):
Institutions would crumble,governments would fall apart,
family systems would fail,right?
Like we know that that we areexpected to fulfill all of these
obligations and shoulds.
And I really wanted to talkabout how we can begin to change
that dynamic.
And if you think about the firetriangle that we learn about in
(03:34):
middle school, that all of theelements that are required to
start a fire, right?
Your heat, your oxygen, yourfuel, and then making that apply
to us in real life.
So the formula for living onfire is taking those three
elements and replacing them withvalues, abilities, and desires.
And I started Mom Stu Man Actionin my 40s, and it was the first
(03:56):
time that I really felt alive.
It was the first time that Ifelt like I was touching the
divine because my values,abilities, and desires were
aligned.
My values back in 2012, I hadfive little kids.
You know, it was aboutprotecting my family and my
community.
My abilities were mydecades-long career in corporate
(04:18):
communication.
So I knew how to build a brand.
I knew how to tell a story.
And my desires were to standshoulder to shoulder with a
badass army of women.
I mean, it's who I've seen getso much done in this country,
starting with prohibitionthrough civil rights and
suffrage and all the way up tothe water crisis in Flint,
Michigan.
And so that was really how Ilearned how to align those three
things.
And it resulted in somethingmajor happening in my life and
(04:41):
in the world.
And, you know, we have 11million supporters now.
So I held the hands of thousandsand thousands of women and
watched them do the same thing.
And it doesn't have to besomething huge like starting a
new organization.
It can be leaving a difficultrelationship, having a difficult
conversation, leaving your job,going back to school, asking for
(05:03):
promotion.
It can be something as simple,as significant as you want it to
be, but it is should be alsosomething that we do our entire
lives, right?
We should be constantly lookingat what is limiting us and what
is calling us.
And so often women don'tprioritize that and try to
figure out what it is they want.
(05:24):
I love that.
And one of the things that Ilove about the book, too, is
that right as you start withthis, you also go into what um
living on fire is not.
And you encourage uh readers topush back against patriarchal
expectations and societal norms.
And I think that is so importantbecause so often we attribute
(05:44):
success to just a title or aposition or a project, or you
know, a lot of our best membersare entrepreneurs and business
owners, so to our business andthe identity so attached to
that.
So can you expand on uh on that,please?
Yeah, you know, we live in acapitalistic society, and so so
much of what we end up doingbecomes commodified.
(06:07):
I mean, self-care is a goodexample of that, right?
If you only buy these things andyou take this bubble bath, you
will be okay.
And yet, you know, we're we'reliving through a time in this
country where the mostmarginalized among us, the most
vulnerable, are being harmed.
And a bubble bath is not goingto help them.
So, you know, when you thinkabout like the things that are
(06:28):
falsifiers in your life, and Iname three of them and I go into
depth, but purpose is one ofthem.
We're told like you have thisone reason to be alive.
And if you figure out what thatis, great.
But if you don't, then you'vesort of failed, right?
Your life isn't what it couldhave been.
And I mean, that's a huge amountof pressure to find this one
purpose.
And we invest a lot of money infiguring out who we are and what
(06:49):
we're meant to be.
And I talk about how we shouldbe living on purpose instead of
for a purpose.
Really, I think what it boilsdown to is fulfillment.
And that gets to this idea ofhappiness, which is the other
falsifier.
It's like this idea that ifwe're not constantly happy or
seeking happiness, then we alsohave somehow failing in our
lives.
And that's just not thetrajectory of life, right?
(07:11):
It involves a lot of sufferingand a lot of setbacks.
And so if we can see those asjust part of the process instead
of an obstacle or a failure, um,I think that's a really
important mindset.
And then the final thing isbusyness.
And I'm very guilty of thismyself.
I spent, you know, severaldecades of my life feeling like
if I wasn't busy at all times,then I wasn't providing value.
(07:35):
And it's this idea ofproductivity, you know, talking
about the commodification incapitalism.
Like if I didn't have mycalendar filled from the moment
I woke up every day until I wentto bed, um, then I was not
living a good or purposefullife.
And that isn't true, right?
Life is full of also need torest and need to think about
where we're going.
And um those shoulds that Italked about earlier, the
(07:59):
obligations, we start to believethat those are our desires.
That's what society wants us tobelieve.
And if we can step back and say,okay, what do I really want as
opposed to, am I doing thingsthat other people have told me
that I want?
Love that.
And and so you talk a lot aboutthis, why we struggle to live on
fire.
But then you also go into whyit's essential that we do it
(08:21):
anyways.
And what how have you coached,you know, women on doing things
anyways, despite even our ownself-limitations?
Yeah, I will tell you the mostfrustrated I get is when I work
with women who have thesebrilliant ideas or these
undeniable desires.
(08:41):
And they just find all thesereasons for not moving forward.
And again, it's not becausethey're weak, it's because
they're wise.
There's tons of obstacles, theyknow that it's difficult.
Um, I have so many women who sayto me, I wish I just had a
manual for the blowback that I'mgonna receive when I kind of get
in the arena.
And, you know, living on fire,again, looking at what's
(09:06):
limiting you and what's callingyou, I mean, you're going to do
things differently.
You may want to do more, you maywant to do less, but anytime you
do things differently, therewill be blowback.
And it may not be, I tell thewhole story in the book about
how when I started MomstamanAction, I had all these threats
of death and sexual violence tome and to my children.
And it was really scary, right?
(09:28):
I there were a lot of times whenI had to decide, you know, was I
going to double back or doubledown?
And it was because of thesupport of so many women who
helped me start Momstoman Actionthat I kept going.
But I do think it's important toremember that, you know, it
might be, you might not getthreats of death and sexual
violence, but you will have, youknow, someone make a snarky
(09:49):
comment in the pickup line atyour kid's school, or your
mother-in-law might havesomething to say.
There will be people who don'tagree with or appreciate how you
are doing things differently.
And I was really lucky tointerview over 70 women from
this book, women from all walksof life, including experts, um,
psychologists, uhself-compassion experts, on and
(10:12):
on.
And when you I talk about thisat length in the book, and
there's lots of exercises andlots of prompts, but it really
boils down to three things whenhandling blowback.
The first is is this personworth listening to?
You know, for me, gun extremistswho probably are sitting in
their mom's basement, like thatwas not important to me.
(10:32):
They're their input and theirtheir feedback.
But you have to decide, youknow, are you being triggered
with the guilt and shame that weall sort of have inherently as
women in society, right?
Are you being triggered becausethis person's opinion is
valuable or because we're justexpected to be good, good girls,
(10:55):
right?
Um, that is how we're raised.
And so the the three keys toblowback, in my experience, is
number one, figuring out whetheryou value this person's input.
The second is the ability tolook at criticism and take what
you want and leave behind whatyou don't.
(11:15):
And that's really hard.
Um, when I first started MomSyman Action, I had so many
people say to me, You're not theright person, this can never
happen, it already exists, it'llnever work.
You know, so many differentreasons why I shouldn't move
forward.
And I really had to beself-aware enough to know that
some people had valuablefeedback and some people didn't,
some people had both.
(11:35):
And what was I gonna take andwhat was I gonna leave behind?
And then the third thing is justsitting with the feelings when
you feel triggered by guilt orshame, or you're dealing with
blowback, you're not really sureif you want to move forward.
Like getting getting comfortablewith being uncomfortable is a
big part of this.
And I talked to Kristen Neff,who's a self-compassion expert.
(11:58):
And there's all these differentways when people have feedback
to kind of sit in those emotionsand not be reactive to it,
because it's very easy to say,okay, this one person criticized
me and therefore I cannot moveforward.
And I I think we I I know I'mguilty of this.
We we do this a lot as women.
Um, but those three things arereally important to getting us
(12:18):
through because you know,there's so much we have to get
through to get through the otherside of what we want, including
like just enduring thatsometimes these things take a
long time.
Oh, I love that.
And one of the things you shareeven, you know, sometimes it's
gonna be external forces, right,that are gonna give you the
blowback.
And sometimes it's gonna bereally personal.
(12:39):
Uh talk about the relationshipwith your dad.
And, you know, I'm sure he didit out of being protective,
right?
He wanted to protect you, but hewas like, Are you sure this is
worth it?
Um, and so I love that youbrought that up because I think
especially in this environmentthat we're living, you know, we
have to deal with uh, you know,questioning.
I know when I started speaking,I I feel like I've been involved
(13:00):
in politics ever since I wasable to vote in this country.
Um, but I wasn't as public,right, with my social media
until last year.
Um and I I mean, I do get askeda lot, why do you still do it?
Um, and and one of the things,Shannon, that I don't know if
you've heard this from otherwomen that I hear the most
consistent is women who areafraid of losing their
(13:22):
friendships over their politics.
And so they rather not sayanything because they don't want
to make other peopleuncomfortable.
Uh, but in my experience, Idefinitely have lost
friendships.
I don't know if they were reallymy friends, but I've lost some.
But I've also made new ones thatare more value-aligned.
So, not sure if you kind ofexperienced you've talked about,
(13:43):
you know, the need to buildbonfires and with people that
that that really align withtheir values.
Can you elaborate on that?
Yeah, I think there's two thingsthere.
So the first thing is that whenwe get triggered, and and guilt
is, you know, I did a bad thing,shame is I am bad.
And when we get triggered, we gointo these different behaviors
(14:05):
that I outline in the book.
For some women, it's impostersyndrome, for some it's
perfectionism, for some, it'sdisappearing.
For me, it was martyrdom.
I tell the story about how whenI started Momstum in Action,
like suddenly I was the tip ofthe spear on this issue that can
be very polarizing.
And because I was, you know, I'mpretty incendiary.
(14:28):
And, you know, I was going upagainst these gun extremists and
I had to take them on, right?
And I would not back down.
And I had sharp elbows and Iknew that my personality had to
be a leader who was not afraid.
And I think in exchange forthat, you know, I did not ever
get paid in the 11 years that Idid this work.
(14:50):
I gave all of my speakingproceeds, all of my book
proceeds that I wrote a book in2019 to to the organization.
And I look back and I realize Idid not set a great example for
other women, you know, who werealso in the organization and
were volunteering.
And I think that's because Iwanted to kind of keep this idea
of I was good.
And so all of us, I talk aboutall kinds of examples of women
(15:11):
who go into these behaviors.
And the reason it's important toknow what behavior being
triggered for guilt and shamewill make go into it is because
then you're self-aware.
And when you're doing it, youcan sort of correct that because
it's so easy to go into that andthen to decide not to move
forward.
Um, I interview a woman who,because of our interviews, she
(15:32):
realized she had self-sabotagedherself every step of every
career she's ever had when shestarted to succeed, right?
And so there's just thesepatterns that we we need to be
aware of.
Um, and then the second thingyou brought up was friendship.
You know, a lot of it is aboutcommunity.
I don't think we can live onfire alone.
I do think it requires thesupport of a community always.
(15:57):
And, you know, mom's demandaction, as I said, grew to have
11 million supporters.
It is not hard to get volunteersto come into an organization.
It is hard to get them to stay.
It's why, for example, some ofthe largest nonprofits in this
country do not have a grassrootsnetwork because you simply, this
is very difficult to get peopleto stay.
So we decided to interview, pollour volunteers, and ask them why
(16:22):
they stay.
And I think this information isapplicable to life generally.
They told us two things.
One is they felt like they werewinning.
So what we were doing was a gooduse of their time.
And that became so central toeverything we did.
We always positioned everythingas losing forward.
Maybe you lost a legislativebattle, but you grew your
(16:43):
chapter, you met more lawmakers,you learned something so that
you would win the next time.
When people feel like they'rewinning, they will give you
additional time.
They will keep showing up.
And then the second thing isthey felt like they found their
people.
This is such a secret to thesuccess of momstream in action.
When you share like, we talkabout the values, abilities, and
(17:04):
desires being the formula.
When you find like-minded peoplewho share your values, you don't
want to let them down.
You want to keep showing up, youwant to know these people
forever.
And in the book, I start torefer to these as bonfires.
You know, it's this idea ofcoming together and lifting one
another up and helping peoplesee, oh, what are my values,
abilities, and desires, and thenhow do I pursue those?
(17:26):
Um I think, you know, my storyis kind of interesting because I
spent, you know, I was 41 yearsold when I started Momstrom Man
Action.
I have five kids.
I put so much of my life into mywork and my family that I woke
up in my 50s when I decided toleave Momsterman Action.
And I was listening to a podcastone day.
I was folding clothes, and thepodcaster was like, if you don't
(17:48):
have five people you can call inthe middle of the night, you
don't have enough close friends.
And I thought, well, I have fivekids, you know, that covers it.
And he said, accept your family.
I thought, well, what's thepoint of having five kids if I
can't call them in the middle ofthe night?
But okay.
And I went on this journey tofind friends.
And I did what any type A womandoes.
I read all about it and I wrotedown like how to find friends,
(18:09):
and then I did it, right?
I started figuring out how toinvite people to coffee and how
to be vulnerable and how tofollow up and invite people to
go on vacation.
And now I be feel like I do havethose five friends.
But given that we're in apost-pandemic,
post-polarization, post-socialmedia world, and especially if
(18:31):
you are midlife like me, youknow, you you find yourself
without your kids being thecenter of your world, and you're
suddenly kind of figuring outwhat is the second half of my
life?
What is this next chapter?
And I think it's reallyimportant that it involves
friendships and community.
Absolutely.
And I want to talk about our thecurrent state of our nation.
(18:51):
But before we get to that, Iwant to read uh something from
the book that I felt was one ofmy favorite parts of the book.
And it says, I wasn't able tostart mom's demand action
because I'm extraordinary.
I was able to start because Ifollowed a specific formula.
The women you see online or inperson who are living the lives
you aspire to live aren'tunicorns either.
(19:14):
They're not more talented ordetermined or passionate than
you are.
The only difference between youand them is that they figure out
how to bring their desires,values, and abilities into
alignment, which is your fireformula.
Um, any woman can become a firestarter by following the formula
(19:34):
and activating their firetriangle.
Can you just quickly describethe three uh the three items
that make up the formula?
Yeah, you know, I when I meetpeople, so often they're like,
oh, well, you must be a bornleader, which makes me laugh
because first of all, I havesevere, untreated ADHD.
Um I barely passed middleschool, high school, and
(19:56):
college.
It wasn't really until I was inmy 20s and 30s that I figured
out how to navigate a systemthat was completely not made for
me.
Um I had no political knowledge.
I did not know how thelegislative system worked when I
started Mom Student Action.
I had never been an organizer.
Um I'm a very shy introvert andan only child.
(20:17):
And on top of that, I had adebilitating fear of public
speaking.
So not exactly someone peoplewould look to and say, oh, that
woman should take on the mostpowerful, wealthy, special
interests that ever existed.
And yet I was exactly the rightperson for the job, right?
My ADHD enabled me to, from themoment I woke up till the moment
I went to bed for 11 years, tohyperfocus on this issue that I
was incredibly passionate about.
(20:38):
I was able to overcome my fearof public speaking by just doing
it over and over again.
And I really do think this hasbeen very helpful for my
introversion because, you know,I'm someone who just sort of
wants to stay inside and to getout and to be with other people
has been very good for me.
So I think sometimes we feellike, who am I?
(20:59):
I don't have these qualities orthese qualifications.
And everyone, every single womanI've ever met with or talked
with is a leader in their owncapacity.
And it does come back to thisformula of values, abilities,
and desires.
You know, if you break it down,I just did an interview with or
um an event with Brene Brown inHouston, who's sort of the North
(21:20):
Star values research in thiscountry.
You know, there's hundreds, ifnot thousands, of them.
And they change throughout ourlives.
I don't think we think enoughabout what our values are at any
given moment.
And that is really a way toguide what it is that you want
to do next, whatever that mightbe, right?
And I list a lot of the valuesin the book.
(21:41):
People should look at them.
And there are a lot of exercisesto help you figure out, okay,
right now in my life, what do Ivalue and what does that mean
for the direction, thetrajectory of where I want to
go?
Um, the second is desires,right?
When I started Melance DemandAction, you know, I grew up in
Rochester, New York, where wewere taught that the activists
who passed through our town orwho lived in our town were like
(22:03):
superheroes, right?
Everyone from Harriet Chubman toum Susan B.
Anthony to Frederick Douglass,like all of those people we were
taught were superheroes.
And so I think when the massshooting tragedy happened at
Sandy Hope School, I thoughtsomeone has to step up, right?
And and I didn't realize thatwas going to be me, but it was.
And then I think the the the oneof the really key pieces of this
(22:26):
that we underplay so often aswomen is the abilities piece of
the formula.
Um I meet so many women whodownplay their abilities.
I was at an event the othernight and we were talking about
what women wanted.
And this woman was like, Ireally want to pursue something
in mental health.
My family has struggled withmental health issues.
I've taught people about mentalhealth, but I just don't have
the degree.
(22:47):
You don't have the degree, butyou have the passion, the
values, abilities, desires.
Like figure out maybe you'rewriting a Substack.
Maybe you're pulling together acommunity group.
There's so many ways to dothings that don't require you to
have, you know, a degree.
So in the book, I ask women,list all of your desires.
I don't, maybe that's like youhad a kick-ass birthday party
(23:08):
for your kids, right?
Those that's executivefunctioning.
What are all your abilities?
What are things that you havedone successfully?
And then the key piece of thisis then go ask people who love
you what they see as yourabilities because we don't see
them ourselves because wedownplay them.
Having someone else, friends,family, tell us what they see as
(23:28):
our abilities is very important.
Then you have this whole robustlist to remind you constantly of
what you're good at.
But it's also a list thatreminds you what you might need
to go get, right?
A lot of value or a lot ofabilities aren't intrinsic.
They're not inherent, they areacquired.
And so when you see yourabilities and you say, okay, I
(23:48):
am missing some of these thingsthat will help me achieve what I
want to achieve, then you can gopursue those.
So I think that's why I spent somuch time on the formula.
And again, you're gonnapractice, it's it's almost like
a discipline or a practice.
You're gonna have to try tobring these three things
together over and over again.
It might result in nothing, itmight result in something very
small, it might result insomething very big.
(24:10):
And it's just a practice that weshould be continuing to do
throughout our lives.
100%.
And I agree with you.
We don't make enough time tothink about these, and and you
make it.
I can't recommend the bookenough.
I didn't know what it was, whatto expect.
I mean, I have, but it it reallyis a guide.
I mean, every chapter has anaction item, which I really
(24:32):
appreciate, like an exercise forus to do, and like it also helps
with accountability, right?
Like you do it before you getinto the next so definitely
recommend it.
Um, Shannon, we're living inhealth.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Uh, you know, and and and I whenI talk to VAS members or
(24:54):
listeners or anybody uh, youknow, in person online, uh,
people are feeling scared,people are feeling discouraged,
uh, people are feeling unsure onof what to do.
What are you telling people thatare coming to you for advice?
First of all, I totallyunderstand feeling hopeless and
(25:18):
helpless.
I completely get it.
There are many times during theday when I feel like that too.
But it was Mary Am Kabe, she'san activist who said hope is a
discipline.
Just as I think hopelessness andhelplessness are a choice, so is
hope.
And so every morning you wake upand you decide which direction
you're going to go in.
Maybe many times through the dayyou make that decision.
(25:40):
What I saw in gun safetyactivism was often that people
who were cynical were making achoice to say, I know things are
bad, but I'm not going to act.
And I think that's very damagingin a democracy.
I think, you know, it was AliceWalker who said, rent or uh
activism is the rent I pay tolive on the planet.
No, I think we have to bethinking about democracy that
(26:03):
way.
And if you think about thesuffragists, right, who were
beaten, imprisoned, starved,they never saw the fruits of
their labor.
It took a hundred years for allwomen, not just white women, but
all women to have the right tovote.
And that is really whatdemocracy is about.
You're building the foundationso that when there is change,
(26:24):
people can act.
And that may not be, might notbe you.
You might not be around anymoreto see that.
It might be several generationslater.
But it's this idea of passing onthe torch.
And, you know, if you had toldme, for example, when I started
Mom's Demand Action thatVirginia would eventually be a
state that would pass over adozen good gun laws, I would
have said you were out of yourmind.
(26:45):
Even the senators in that statehad A ratings from the NRA when
I started Moms Demand Action,the Democratic senators, Mark
Warner, Tib Cain.
And it was so much work in adecade to get again, like uh 25%
of all Democrats in Congress in2012 had an A rating from NRA.
(27:06):
Today none do, right?
So to in Virginia to constantlyshow up the statehouse, to
constantly show up where thesenators were, to invest in
elections, to get out the vote.
Finally, it was really after themass shooting in Virginia Beach
when Republicans gaveled outafter 90 seconds without doing
(27:27):
anything, that the tide turned.
And we were able in the nextelection cycle to flip all three
chambers of the General Assemblyand to pass over a dozen good
gun laws, none of which wererolled back by the subsequent
Republican governor.
So we'd spent a decade buildingthe foundation so that we could
take action when there waschange.
(27:48):
And I think that's how we haveto think about our activism.
I understand the fear.
I know, I knew Melissa Hortman,the state rep who was murdered
in Minnesota.
But I also know that all thosethreats of death and sexual
violence I got, they wereintended to silence me.
They were intended to scare me.
And that's what's happeningright now in this country.
(28:10):
They want to silence and scareus so that we don't act.
And that should outrage us,especially those of us with
privilege.
I also think, you know, let'ssay your kid is sick and it's 2
a.m.
and you're exhausted, they'vebeen throwing up all night.
You don't look at them and say,you know what?
I have an early meeting, I haveto go to bed, but I'll check
(28:31):
back in with you at 8 a.m.
and see how you're feeling.
Right?
We would never do that.
We hold that kid's hand untilthey're better.
And I think democracy is thesame way.
Like we have to hold democracy'shand until it's better.
Wow.
I love that.
Um you said something about umactivism, and and I love that
(28:52):
quote.
Uh and recently I was having aconversation with someone, and
they said, you know, well, wejust need to come up with a new
word because activism andactivist, it, you know, scares
people.
This is a group of professionalwomen, uh, you know, uh, we're
in the finance sector, we're incorporate America, we're in
(29:12):
philanthropy across the board.
But it saddened me, to behonest.
It was like, what what about theword activism makes you think
that it's a dirty word?
Like, you know, it just, I don'tknow.
Uh have you ever heard that frompeople?
Like, um, and what do you whatdo you think it's associated
(29:33):
with?
Is it associated with uhsocietal expectations?
Is it demon professional?
What do you think about thatstatement?
I mean, I I write about this inthe book.
I I felt that way up to the St.
Uk school shooting.
You know, I was a corporateexecutive, I'm mommy five, I'm
living in a suburban area ofIndiana.
(29:54):
And I thought, you know, I haveto get activated.
And then I thought about theword activist.
And I think what it reminded Meof is like people who chain
themselves to offense orsomething, you know, like this
incredibly radical behavior.
And it's not, right?
It's just you are a keeper ofthe democratic flame.
You're you're someone whosupports democracy, who's
exercising the rights thatyou're supposed to allegedly
(30:16):
have through the constitution.
Um, and and you know, I thinkwith so many words, we often
want to like rename them sothey're more palatable people to
people.
But what we really should bedoing is sort of embracing them
and making them represent whatit is that we mean or what we
want.
Um, I very proudly considermyself an activist.
And maybe if more of us did, youknow, we would be using our
(30:39):
votes and our voices to makechange.
Absolutely.
I also want to acknowledge thefear that a lot of uh
professional women are arefeeling, especially with all the
five.
I mean, unfortunately, you know,we have corporate America.
Um, don't know if you guys watchKamala's interview with Kara um
on the pivot, I think it was thepivot uh podcast.
(30:59):
Yeah.
She said, you know, with allthese CEOs being so
transactional, and how she wassurprised, she wasn't surprised
that they came, but she wassurprised of how fast it
happened and how transactionalit was, right?
And uh, because they they'resmart people, they know what's
happening.
And now we are seeing thefiring, a lot of black women are
uh being fired and let go andnot able to secure jobs.
(31:22):
Um, we're also seeing a lot ofuh people get fired over their
social posts.
So, how would you coach womenwho want to do something um but
are also afraid of potentialbacklash uh with their employer
or business?
One thing I would say is I justdid an interview with Professor
(31:44):
Anna Gepte.
Um she wrote a book called TheDouble Tax, which is really
interesting.
It's it's really focused onblack women and how they're
suffering in this economy.
But if she says black women arejust the canary in the coal mine
because what comes next happensto all of us, right?
And so we should all be smartand we should all know that.
So I highly recommend the book,The Double Tax, or check out our
interview.
Um it's on book substack, and weposted a clip on Instagram, but
(32:07):
she's amazing and she's actuallyon book tour right now.
Um but I don't want to downplaythat fear at all.
And I do think that's why peoplewho have privilege and who
aren't in the vulnerable place,the onus is on us so much to
step up.
You know, that's how I feltabout gun violence prevention
too.
Um, you know, I had someone makea suggestion.
(32:30):
I I think women are just likeinvincible and amazing,
especially when they cometogether in community.
And I was on book tour, youknow, a few months ago, and I
someone, a woman had this ideaand she said, I'm a lawyer.
What if I got together withother lawyers in my community
and we found out which womenwere vulnerable because, you
know, maybe they had beenadmonished or even fired from
(32:50):
their jobs for exercising theirrights in a democracy?
And what if what if we couldsupport them?
Because so many of these people,for example, who were fired or
penalized after the Charlie Kirkshooting tragedy unjustly have
been reinstated because of thework of lawyers.
And so I think it's on us ascommunities to come together and
say, okay, who are the women inour community who are vulnerable
(33:13):
or suffering and how do weprotect them?
And have sort of theseinnovative ways of doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
I have a question.
Hi, I'm Vanessa Morrison and uhShannon really enjoyed your
talk.
And thank you so much for justthe inspiration and the insights
and perspectives.
And I get really energized bythese conversations and the
thought of having thiscollectivism and coming together
as women, and our power is somuch more, it's stronger
(33:41):
together.
But it just seems like sometimesin the daily practice of trying
to do that, it can be difficult.
And luckily, the Vest platformcreates a platform for us to be
able to come together and sharethis power and be in community
and share resources.
But I'm just curious, from yourperspective, like from a daily
practice point of view, how canwe really hold ourselves
(34:04):
accountable to doing thiscollective work even outside of
forums like this?
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Oh, I love this question.
And the part of the reason Ilove it is because I have been
shocked that women have taken mybook and now they are meeting in
person where they live.
So in over 25 states now, thereare bonfires where these women
are just coming together andthey are meeting about personal,
political, and professionalempowerment.
(34:32):
You know, if you ask me, do Iknow who my neighbors are, the
answer is no, probably in thelast few states I've lived in.
And what I have seen is thepower of community, particularly
when, let's be honest, there'snot going to be a lot that we
can do at a federal level.
There's so much that we can dowhen we know our neighbors, when
we can know who's suffering, orwe know what's on the agenda at
(34:53):
our city council, or we knowwhat our school board is talking
about, um, or we know womenwho've been laid off, et cetera,
right?
And that all happens locally andin community.
And I can remember after theelection loss, so many people
were talking about community.
And I was kind of like, is thatjust something we're saying, or
is that real?
And I really do think it's realbecause if we have joy, if we
(35:15):
have connection, if we havevalue where we live, then we
have a lot.
And that can get us through andit can help us create that
foundation that I was talkingabout.
So that is a long way of sayingfind the community where you
live.
Maybe you want to join ifanybody wants to join or lead a
bonfire, let me know.
Uh my email is just ShannonRWatts at gmail.
(35:38):
So I'm happy to connect you to abonfire that might already exist
where you are.
If you want to start one, let meknow.
But there are also lots ofcommunity groups, you know,
where you live.
I can remember during thepandemic, you know, when I was
going through that whole thingof trying to find friends, I
found a hiking group where Ilived at the time in the East
Bay.
So I, you know, I think Vanessa,like so many things, it's
(35:59):
carving out time, which bringsme to another part of the book.
I talk about something called acontrolled burn.
You know, when you hear about aprescribed burn in real life,
it's something that's beenpracticed for eons, this idea of
how do we protect the, how do weprotect nature from wildfires?
And so we do a prescribed burnwhere we burn some things.
(36:22):
And if you apply that to yourown life, you do an audit of the
things that you no longer needor the things that are maybe
usurping so much of yourvaluable time.
Part of my interviews with womenfor the book, you know, we
talked about a controlled burnthat they had done in their own
lives.
One woman looked at the amountthat she was drinking during the
(36:42):
pandemic and decided that thatwas taking too much of her
capacity, right?
Um, there are a lot of peoplewho talk about doom scrolling or
watching Instagram reels, whichI am very guilty of, or, you
know, being on TikTok, socialmedia can often be a big drain
on her time.
But maybe there are also rolesthat you've taken on that that
(37:02):
you don't necessarily have todo.
Uh, another woman talked abouthow she has an eating disorder.
Part of her prescribed burn wasgetting rid of all the clothes
in her closet that were holdingher to this very small standard
that she could never meet.
And it was taking up so much ofher bandwidth in her brain.
So if you if you read throughthe book, there are exercises of
ways you can audit the things inyour life that might be taking
(37:24):
up time that you could spend onfinding your community or
staying in your community andtapping into community.
I totally agree with you that itis hard, but I do think it's
such an important piece ofstaying well right now.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I appreciate those tangibletakeaways and strategies.
And it does feel like a lot oftimes when I am in these spaces,
it's very professionalproduction, you know,
production.
Right.
Like we're producing, we'recreating, we're working.
And it would be nice to havemore of like just, hey, let's
(37:59):
just like socialize, let's justbe in so much of that, and I'm
so grateful for it.
But yeah, it feels nice not tojust always be in work
production mode, but just be incommunity, get to know your
neighbors, and just hold spacefor one another.
So thank you for that.
Those useful takeaways.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
Uh Shannon, I want to ask you something that I
think um a lot of uh moms, uhparticularly boy moms, are
struggling with right now.
Yeah, the radicalization thathas taken place um on social
media with some of these maleinfluencers.
But now, as we I'm sure you'veall seen the political article
(38:41):
that came out yesterday, andit's even with social clubs that
are supposed to be, you know,social clubs um for um young
adults.
Um and I'm don't want to assume,but maybe the team can put the
political um article on thechat.
(39:02):
But basically, young Republicanclaw leaders were texting um
anti-um anti-Semitic, uh,racist, and misogynistic uh text
messages to dangerous and andextremely concerning.
And and my and and what I thinkit's sad is that we've
normalized so much of this,right?
Like so many people is like, oh,but that's just poly.
(39:24):
Oh, well, they're just boys.
Are you hearing this from othermoms?
And again, how do we how do wesupport them?
I have referrals, I still worry.
You know, I I actually textedthe article to my daughter who's
in college, and she was like,Oh, yeah, mom, that's how they
talk.
And I was just like, What?
Uh, even in college at clubs,right?
(39:46):
In groups and fraternities.
Um yeah.
So um I'm gonna make anotherbook recommendation.
There's a book called Boy Mom byRuth Whitman, and it's all about
in just what's happening rightnow with young men in this
country, but also in particular,what's happening with white
young men in this country.
(40:07):
Um, I'm the mom of a white25-year-old son.
And, you know, this is somethingthat I have been worried about
for a very long time.
He was born in 2000, so he sortof came of age in the social
media environment.
And, you know, I do think it'sparents' role to monitor what
their children are seeingonline.
There's all these studies.
A study came out last week fromCommon Sense Media.
(40:29):
You know, boys are so exposed toporn and pressure to be
masculine and what that means interms of how they look and how
they act.
Um, it's so toxic and sodangerous, particularly in a
nation with 400 million guns incirculation, right?
It's like the perfect storm forcreating incels and people who
are dangerous.
(40:50):
I'll just be honest, there's apart of me that gets so angry
about this idea that we have tospend so much time caring about
young, privileged men and theirloneliness.
Like I resent it.
But on the other hand, I've seenwhat happens when you ignore it.
And so, like, there's this sortof catch-22 of, you know, women
don't own this.
Women have their own problems.
(41:11):
And we've been a, you know, wehold 25% of the 500,000 elected
positions in this country.
We're less than 5% of fortune,1,000 CEOs.
Like we we don't have power andwe aren't killing people.
And yet, like that, this is whathappens to our families if we
don't pay attention to it.
So I I do think this is acrisis.
(41:31):
Um, and let's just be honest.
I mean, it's how it's in manyways how Donald Trump and has
won the election, has stayed inpower, will continue, you know,
that that party will continue tostay in power.
If it, I mean, I don't know howmany of you saw that basically
the vice president came out andcondoned what these young
Republicans said and or excusedit.
(41:52):
And that is terrifying to me,you know, that that all of these
racist, bigoted, misogynistremarks, supporting everything
from rape to to murder, youknow, I I it should terrify all
of us.
You know, empathy has started tobe seen now as a toxic trait in
our society, and that's exactlywhat we need.
(42:13):
So I guess what I'm saying isthis is not our fault.
And yet I do think that that weneed to be aware of it,
especially if we have sons andboth parents have a role in the
to play in making sure they knowwhat their boys are doing and
what they're thinking and howthey're behaving.
But also, I think this is suchan important time for women to
(42:36):
figure out, you know, what ourvalues, abilities, and desires,
and how can we bring those tobear?
Because what men need are morerole models of women who are
empathetic and who are not gonnabe silent.
And this is a little bit of atangent, but you know, I the the
the most common deathbed regretin the world is that you didn't
(42:56):
live a life that's true to you.
And so when I interviewed allthese women for this book, I
thought, I'm gonna ask them thisquestion, they're all gonna say
the same thing.
They all said the same thing,but that wasn't their deathbed
regret.
They were worried that theirdeathbed regret would be that
they spent so much time focusedon what they wanted that they
sacrificed their children.
(43:16):
Which is so interesting becausea man would never say that,
right?
And I think a lot of us are sotied up in raising our children
that we forget to go after whatwe want or we feel that we don't
deserve it or we just don't doit.
And I interview experts who say,you know, your children, and
this includes your sons, theyactually want you to have other
things that you're focused on inyour life because it's a lot of
(43:39):
pressure on them to beeverything, but also you're
setting an example for them.
And so that's what I think is soimportant about what we do is
that we're setting an examplefor young men.
Absolutely.
Um, and I love something that Ithink it's so true.
You mentioned it earlier about,you know, when people ask, who
are the five people that youcall and you said your kids?
(44:00):
I don't know if you went throughit.
But as my girls grew older and,you know, moved to college and
so on.
I I always tell women, don'tattach your identity to your
business, to your project, toyour title.
But I had attached my identityto being a mom.
And when they left me and wantednothing to do with me, I had an
(44:20):
identity crisis.
I was like, wait a minute, I'mlonely.
I don't have any friends, youknow, and um, so, anyways, I
just um I think you're right.
I think we need to prioritizeourselves and not, I mean, the
identity of a mom is alsoattachment, right?
Yeah, I mean, we we are thewealthiest, healthiest
generation Gen Xers that's everexisted in history.
(44:42):
And unlike, you know, my mom,who was born in 1949, you know,
she was, after I left forschool, sort of expected to take
up a hobby and disappear, fadeinto the background.
I think it's JD Vance who alsosaid that menopausal women, the
whole role is to, I guess,babysit grandkids.
That's just not the caseanymore.
You know, our we have morewisdom and in many cases more
(45:05):
energy left in our second half.
And we should be thinking aboutwhat do we want to do until the
very end.
And that's why I interview womenin their 60s, 70s, 80s, and
beyond for my book, because thethe most vibrant volunteers for
Mom Student Action were womenwho are retired.
You know, those were the oneswho just got shit done.
So I really do think that weshould be thinking about a
(45:26):
post-emptiness world and what itis that we want to do, because
in many ways we're just gettingstarted.
100%.
And since we're talking aboutlabels and, you know, identities
and stuff like that, um, at VAS,we actually, this was
pre-election.
I can't remember when we had it,but we actually had a
conversation about thepsychology around putting labels
(45:48):
to young women.
And we were discussing the tradwives and the cat ladies, you
know, after JD Vance um uh saidthat, you know, women who don't
have children are just sad catladies or whatever.
Um, we actually had aconversation about that and and
the psychology and and what thatdoes to young women did not
correlate it, not as much towhat is happening now, and you
(46:10):
know, how we've talked aboutsocial media and how the social
media influencers are usingculture and some of these labels
to also lure voters or or thepeople that follow them into a
certain voting pattern, right?
So just curious to know ifyou've had these type of
conversations with uh with womenand volunteers about this
(46:31):
Tradwife movement and um andwhat your advice is for us.
I mean, I think it comes down tothe algorithm.
You know, the algorithm isarming all of us and it's
encouraging us to hate oneanother.
I mean, we can't even have likea Taylor Swift album without it
turning into this veryincredibly divisive thing.
(46:54):
And that's because we're beingserved all this stuff online.
Um, it's a struggle for me.
You know, I'm wrestling withlike what do I do with social
media?
It's on one hand an importantcommunity.
On the other hand, like, am Ibeing harmed or am I harming
others?
And I think it's something thatit's a reckoning that we all
have to figure out in theabsence of governmental action.
I mean, a long time ago,presidents on both sides should
(47:17):
have regulated social media sothat we're not being exposed to
this.
But yes, I mean, I think thewhole reason the Trump
administration has been sosuccessful is because they
understand how to tap into thoseincendiary cultural points that
make us all take positions.
And this is an intentioneconomy.
(47:37):
So if you're getting attention,then you're winning.
And all of those things, thisidea of, you know, we're all
gonna go back to church andwomen are going to stay in the
home and men are going to havethe power.
I mean, this is not what thegeneral population wants, and
yet we're being told it is.
And when you're living online,that's what you see.
(47:58):
So, you know, I think that thatwe keep coming back to this idea
of community, but Twitter is notreal life.
That is not how people talk toone another.
It's not the opinions peoplehold.
Real life is much different.
And if we aren't plugged intopeople where we live and we
aren't having conversations thatchange hearts and minds, and we
aren't hearing people's feedbackand opinions and without that
(48:20):
sort of algorithmic um silo,then it's it's really becomes
very dangerous.
And you know, this this is allintertwined.
I mean, we this goes back toyoung men too, who are living in
the algorithm.
For sure.
Um, yeah, and then there's awhole other conversation, right?
When we talk about who'sdesigning the algorithms and the
(48:43):
AI now with Sora and Men, allmen.
Yes, yes, and and and alsoregulating bodies, right?
When we look at who actuallyregulating AI, there's very few
women, if at all.
Um, so yeah.
Um, any more questions from uhVAS members?
Uh during this part of ourcoaching session, a VAS member
(49:06):
shares she was navigating anincredibly difficult situation
involving alleged sexual abuseand misconduct.
She asked for guidance on how tofind the courage to speak up and
protect others.
To respect her privacy, weedited that portion out.
But we did want to shareShannon's powerful reflection on
what it takes to act withcourage in moments that truly
(49:29):
demand it.
First of all, thank you for whatyou're doing and thank you for
being brave.
And I can remember after theelection, I did a substantial
guide with Jessica Yellen.
I don't know if you know her sheis, she runs News Not Noise on
Instagram.
And she said in the next fouryears, everyone is going to have
their own Ann Frank moment wherethey have to decide how they are
(49:50):
going to be brave and help otherpeople at the risk to
themselves.
So whether it's, you know, whatyou're doing, or whether it's
people going to the No Kingsrally this weekend, or, you
know, it just can look so manydifferent ways for so many
different people.
And that is the work in thismoment for sure.
(50:12):
Part of our members' questionalso included the need to talk
about holding our the leaders inour own communities accountable.
So here's a continuation ofthat.
I think it's relevant because alot of people often tell me, oh,
that's great.
We just need more women inpower.
Or we just need more Latinos inpower.
But representation, as proven,it's not always, you know, like
(50:36):
we also need to do a lot of workinternally ourselves as Latinos.
I tell people all the time,like, um we need to do the work
and deconstruct a lot of thingsthat we've been thought uh or
that we think are right beforewe serve, right?
Because otherwise we're justcreating more problems and we're
being more extractive than weare contributing to our
(50:59):
community and to the well-beingof our community.
So just curious to know ifyou've with women, you know,
working with women, um we'reobviously seeing a lot of women
that are not necessarilyfighting for women's rights that
are in office.
They're not necessarily fightingfor other women who need access
to healthcare with the ACA, andthey know that their state is
(51:20):
going to be affected, but they,I guess, are not willing to
compromise or even talk aboutit.
Um, so one is one you to closeus out with any action items
that you have for us,specifically if you want, if you
have one for how do we deal withhow do we keep women accountable
and people in leadership in ourcommunities, whether it's the
(51:42):
Latino community, the blackcommunity, whatever, accountable
when they are in positions ofleadership.
Well, I mean, I think thankingand shaming people, you know,
it's it's as as old as activismand it is, it works.
I mean, for those who still havesome shame, and it's how Moms
Demand Action was able to stopthe NRA's agenda 90% of the time
(52:05):
for over a decade, right?
And pass over 500 gun laws.
Thanking and shaming peopletypically works.
I also do think there's a moralimperative for women to run for
office in this country.
As I said, we only hold about25% of the 500,000 elected
positions.
And I promise you, the 85%, youknow, men who are in office are
not super healthy and uh smart.
(52:28):
So, like, you know, I've beenin, I've sat in a lot of state
houses, and these are a lot ofthem are not rocket scientists.
So I do think that there's anonus on us.
And I don't care if that's likecounty coroner or city sheriff
or whatever.
It doesn't have to be Congressor president.
Think about an office you canserve in and either run yourself
or encourage other women to run.
Emerge America is a greatorganization for that.
(52:49):
I'm on the board.
Um, and then I would just say,you know, next best step.
I I would love for you all tofigure out your own fire
formula.
What are your values, abilities,and desires, and how can that
lead you in the next direction?
And you can, I'm I'm at mostsocial media at Shannon R.
Watts.
I read all my DMs on Instagram.
If you enjoyed the episode,share with a friend and don't
(53:11):
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to take yourcareer to the next level, apply
to join our community of womenprofessionals, eager to help you
get there and stay there.
Go to www.besther.co to learnmore.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Vester Podcast,
where we share honestconversations, actionable
insights, and real stories tosupport not just your career
growth, but also your lifejourney.
I'm Erica Lucas, your host fortoday.
Let's get started.
At a time when the state of ourdemocracy feels like its own
(00:25):
support and the stakes forwomen's voices have never been
higher.
What does it really mean to livewith purpose?
And how can we find the courageto act on it?
Today's guest, Shannon Watts, isno stranger to that question.
As a founder of Moms DemandAction and one of Time's 100
most influential people, shespent over a decade proving
(00:47):
what's possible when women getfired up and stay fired up, even
when taken on one of the mostpowerful lobbying forces in
America.
In this episode, we talked toShannon about her new book,
Fired Up (00:59):
How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at
Any Age.
And why women must stop waitingfor permission to lead, to speak
up, and to take action.
Even when the blowback is real.
Especially when the blowback isreal.
For our guestful bio and shownotes, go to www.vesther.co
(01:22):
forward slash podcast.
If you enjoyed the episode,share it with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to take yourcareer into the next level, join
our community of womenprofessionals eager to help you
get there and stay there.
Go to www.vesther.co to learnmore.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
(01:44):
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
Yeah, the first question, Ithink a lot of us have read the
book, but some of us haven't,and maybe some listeners that
are tuning in haven't.
So why don't you tell us whatdoes it really mean to live on
fire?
You know, I stepped back fromMomstream Action in 2023 and
(02:06):
really wasn't sure what I wasgoing to do.
I think I thought, oh, I'm goingto take a year-long break.
And I ended up getting a callfrom Maria Shriver, who is a
wonderful human, and she alsohas a book imprint.
And she was a longtime supporterof Momstremain Action.
And she told me that I shouldwrite a book for her imprint,
kind of about what I had learnedthrough my career and my
(02:27):
activism, mostly about workingwith women.
And I took a my some of myfavorite self-help and business
books to my friend Glenn andDoyle's house.
And she looked at me and said,These are very boring.
You are like more of a fierypersonality.
And that really is how themetaphor of fire began.
And the thesis of my book isthat, you know, men are taught
(02:52):
to fulfill their desires andwomen are taught to fulfill
their obligations.
And how do we live a life inwhich we ask ourselves, what do
I want?
And look, I know the reason wedon't ask ourselves that.
It's not because we're weak,it's because we're wise, right?
We know all of the obstaclesthat are in our way.
And we know that if we woke upevery day and asked ourselves,
you know, what do I want?
(03:14):
Institutions would crumble,governments would fall apart,
family systems would fail,right?
Like we know that that we areexpected to fulfill all of these
obligations and shoulds.
And I really wanted to talkabout how we can begin to change
that dynamic.
And if you think about the firetriangle that we learn about in
(03:34):
middle school, that all of theelements that are required to
start a fire, right?
Your heat, your oxygen, yourfuel, and then making that apply
to us in real life.
So the formula for living onfire is taking those three
elements and replacing them withvalues, abilities, and desires.
And I started Mom Stu Man Actionin my 40s, and it was the first
(03:56):
time that I really felt alive.
It was the first time that Ifelt like I was touching the
divine because my values,abilities, and desires were
aligned.
My values back in 2012, I hadfive little kids.
You know, it was aboutprotecting my family and my
community.
My abilities were mydecades-long career in corporate
(04:18):
communication.
So I knew how to build a brand.
I knew how to tell a story.
And my desires were to standshoulder to shoulder with a
badass army of women.
I mean, it's who I've seen getso much done in this country,
starting with prohibitionthrough civil rights and
suffrage and all the way up tothe water crisis in Flint,
Michigan.
And so that was really how Ilearned how to align those three
things.
And it resulted in somethingmajor happening in my life and
(04:41):
in the world.
And, you know, we have 11million supporters now.
So I held the hands of thousandsand thousands of women and
watched them do the same thing.
And it doesn't have to besomething huge like starting a
new organization.
It can be leaving a difficultrelationship, having a difficult
conversation, leaving your job,going back to school, asking for
(05:03):
promotion.
It can be something as simple,as significant as you want it to
be, but it is should be alsosomething that we do our entire
lives, right?
We should be constantly lookingat what is limiting us and what
is calling us.
And so often women don'tprioritize that and try to
figure out what it is they want.
(05:24):
I love that.
And one of the things that Ilove about the book, too, is
that right as you start withthis, you also go into what um
living on fire is not.
And you encourage uh readers topush back against patriarchal
expectations and societal norms.
And I think that is so importantbecause so often we attribute
(05:44):
success to just a title or aposition or a project, or you
know, a lot of our best membersare entrepreneurs and business
owners, so to our business andthe identity so attached to
that.
So can you expand on uh on that,please?
Yeah, you know, we live in acapitalistic society, and so so
much of what we end up doingbecomes commodified.
(06:07):
I mean, self-care is a goodexample of that, right?
If you only buy these things andyou take this bubble bath, you
will be okay.
And yet, you know, we're we'reliving through a time in this
country where the mostmarginalized among us, the most
vulnerable, are being harmed.
And a bubble bath is not goingto help them.
So, you know, when you thinkabout like the things that are
(06:28):
falsifiers in your life, and Iname three of them and I go into
depth, but purpose is one ofthem.
We're told like you have thisone reason to be alive.
And if you figure out what thatis, great.
But if you don't, then you'vesort of failed, right?
Your life isn't what it couldhave been.
And I mean, that's a huge amountof pressure to find this one
purpose.
And we invest a lot of money infiguring out who we are and what
(06:49):
we're meant to be.
And I talk about how we shouldbe living on purpose instead of
for a purpose.
Really, I think what it boilsdown to is fulfillment.
And that gets to this idea ofhappiness, which is the other
falsifier.
It's like this idea that ifwe're not constantly happy or
seeking happiness, then we alsohave somehow failing in our
lives.
And that's just not thetrajectory of life, right?
(07:11):
It involves a lot of sufferingand a lot of setbacks.
And so if we can see those asjust part of the process instead
of an obstacle or a failure, um,I think that's a really
important mindset.
And then the final thing isbusyness.
And I'm very guilty of thismyself.
I spent, you know, severaldecades of my life feeling like
if I wasn't busy at all times,then I wasn't providing value.
(07:35):
And it's this idea ofproductivity, you know, talking
about the commodification incapitalism.
Like if I didn't have mycalendar filled from the moment
I woke up every day until I wentto bed, um, then I was not
living a good or purposefullife.
And that isn't true, right?
Life is full of also need torest and need to think about
where we're going.
And um those shoulds that Italked about earlier, the
(07:59):
obligations, we start to believethat those are our desires.
That's what society wants us tobelieve.
And if we can step back and say,okay, what do I really want as
opposed to, am I doing thingsthat other people have told me
that I want?
Love that.
And and so you talk a lot aboutthis, why we struggle to live on
fire.
But then you also go into whyit's essential that we do it
(08:21):
anyways.
And what how have you coached,you know, women on doing things
anyways, despite even our ownself-limitations?
Yeah, I will tell you the mostfrustrated I get is when I work
with women who have thesebrilliant ideas or these
undeniable desires.
(08:41):
And they just find all thesereasons for not moving forward.
And again, it's not becausethey're weak, it's because
they're wise.
There's tons of obstacles, theyknow that it's difficult.
Um, I have so many women who sayto me, I wish I just had a
manual for the blowback that I'mgonna receive when I kind of get
in the arena.
And, you know, living on fire,again, looking at what's
(09:06):
limiting you and what's callingyou, I mean, you're going to do
things differently.
You may want to do more, you maywant to do less, but anytime you
do things differently, therewill be blowback.
And it may not be, I tell thewhole story in the book about
how when I started MomstamanAction, I had all these threats
of death and sexual violence tome and to my children.
And it was really scary, right?
(09:28):
I there were a lot of times whenI had to decide, you know, was I
going to double back or doubledown?
And it was because of thesupport of so many women who
helped me start Momstoman Actionthat I kept going.
But I do think it's important toremember that, you know, it
might be, you might not getthreats of death and sexual
violence, but you will have, youknow, someone make a snarky
(09:49):
comment in the pickup line atyour kid's school, or your
mother-in-law might havesomething to say.
There will be people who don'tagree with or appreciate how you
are doing things differently.
And I was really lucky tointerview over 70 women from
this book, women from all walksof life, including experts, um,
psychologists, uhself-compassion experts, on and
(10:12):
on.
And when you I talk about thisat length in the book, and
there's lots of exercises andlots of prompts, but it really
boils down to three things whenhandling blowback.
The first is is this personworth listening to?
You know, for me, gun extremistswho probably are sitting in
their mom's basement, like thatwas not important to me.
(10:32):
They're their input and theirtheir feedback.
But you have to decide, youknow, are you being triggered
with the guilt and shame that weall sort of have inherently as
women in society, right?
Are you being triggered becausethis person's opinion is
valuable or because we're justexpected to be good, good girls,
(10:55):
right?
Um, that is how we're raised.
And so the the three keys toblowback, in my experience, is
number one, figuring out whetheryou value this person's input.
The second is the ability tolook at criticism and take what
you want and leave behind whatyou don't.
(11:15):
And that's really hard.
Um, when I first started MomSyman Action, I had so many
people say to me, You're not theright person, this can never
happen, it already exists, it'llnever work.
You know, so many differentreasons why I shouldn't move
forward.
And I really had to beself-aware enough to know that
some people had valuablefeedback and some people didn't,
some people had both.
(11:35):
And what was I gonna take andwhat was I gonna leave behind?
And then the third thing is justsitting with the feelings when
you feel triggered by guilt orshame, or you're dealing with
blowback, you're not really sureif you want to move forward.
Like getting getting comfortablewith being uncomfortable is a
big part of this.
And I talked to Kristen Neff,who's a self-compassion expert.
(11:58):
And there's all these differentways when people have feedback
to kind of sit in those emotionsand not be reactive to it,
because it's very easy to say,okay, this one person criticized
me and therefore I cannot moveforward.
And I I think we I I know I'mguilty of this.
We we do this a lot as women.
Um, but those three things arereally important to getting us
(12:18):
through because you know,there's so much we have to get
through to get through the otherside of what we want, including
like just enduring thatsometimes these things take a
long time.
Oh, I love that.
And one of the things you shareeven, you know, sometimes it's
gonna be external forces, right,that are gonna give you the
blowback.
And sometimes it's gonna bereally personal.
(12:39):
Uh talk about the relationshipwith your dad.
And, you know, I'm sure he didit out of being protective,
right?
He wanted to protect you, but hewas like, Are you sure this is
worth it?
Um, and so I love that youbrought that up because I think
especially in this environmentthat we're living, you know, we
have to deal with uh, you know,questioning.
I know when I started speaking,I I feel like I've been involved
(13:00):
in politics ever since I wasable to vote in this country.
Um, but I wasn't as public,right, with my social media
until last year.
Um and I I mean, I do get askeda lot, why do you still do it?
Um, and and one of the things,Shannon, that I don't know if
you've heard this from otherwomen that I hear the most
consistent is women who areafraid of losing their
(13:22):
friendships over their politics.
And so they rather not sayanything because they don't want
to make other peopleuncomfortable.
Uh, but in my experience, Idefinitely have lost
friendships.
I don't know if they were reallymy friends, but I've lost some.
But I've also made new ones thatare more value-aligned.
So, not sure if you kind ofexperienced you've talked about,
(13:43):
you know, the need to buildbonfires and with people that
that that really align withtheir values.
Can you elaborate on that?
Yeah, I think there's two thingsthere.
So the first thing is that whenwe get triggered, and and guilt
is, you know, I did a bad thing,shame is I am bad.
And when we get triggered, we gointo these different behaviors
(14:05):
that I outline in the book.
For some women, it's impostersyndrome, for some it's
perfectionism, for some, it'sdisappearing.
For me, it was martyrdom.
I tell the story about how whenI started Momstum in Action,
like suddenly I was the tip ofthe spear on this issue that can
be very polarizing.
And because I was, you know, I'mpretty incendiary.
(14:28):
And, you know, I was going upagainst these gun extremists and
I had to take them on, right?
And I would not back down.
And I had sharp elbows and Iknew that my personality had to
be a leader who was not afraid.
And I think in exchange forthat, you know, I did not ever
get paid in the 11 years that Idid this work.
(14:50):
I gave all of my speakingproceeds, all of my book
proceeds that I wrote a book in2019 to to the organization.
And I look back and I realize Idid not set a great example for
other women, you know, who werealso in the organization and
were volunteering.
And I think that's because Iwanted to kind of keep this idea
of I was good.
And so all of us, I talk aboutall kinds of examples of women
(15:11):
who go into these behaviors.
And the reason it's important toknow what behavior being
triggered for guilt and shamewill make go into it is because
then you're self-aware.
And when you're doing it, youcan sort of correct that because
it's so easy to go into that andthen to decide not to move
forward.
Um, I interview a woman who,because of our interviews, she
(15:32):
realized she had self-sabotagedherself every step of every
career she's ever had when shestarted to succeed, right?
And so there's just thesepatterns that we we need to be
aware of.
Um, and then the second thingyou brought up was friendship.
You know, a lot of it is aboutcommunity.
I don't think we can live onfire alone.
I do think it requires thesupport of a community always.
(15:57):
And, you know, mom's demandaction, as I said, grew to have
11 million supporters.
It is not hard to get volunteersto come into an organization.
It is hard to get them to stay.
It's why, for example, some ofthe largest nonprofits in this
country do not have a grassrootsnetwork because you simply, this
is very difficult to get peopleto stay.
So we decided to interview, pollour volunteers, and ask them why
(16:22):
they stay.
And I think this information isapplicable to life generally.
They told us two things.
One is they felt like they werewinning.
So what we were doing was a gooduse of their time.
And that became so central toeverything we did.
We always positioned everythingas losing forward.
Maybe you lost a legislativebattle, but you grew your
(16:43):
chapter, you met more lawmakers,you learned something so that
you would win the next time.
When people feel like they'rewinning, they will give you
additional time.
They will keep showing up.
And then the second thing isthey felt like they found their
people.
This is such a secret to thesuccess of momstream in action.
When you share like, we talkabout the values, abilities, and
(17:04):
desires being the formula.
When you find like-minded peoplewho share your values, you don't
want to let them down.
You want to keep showing up, youwant to know these people
forever.
And in the book, I start torefer to these as bonfires.
You know, it's this idea ofcoming together and lifting one
another up and helping peoplesee, oh, what are my values,
abilities, and desires, and thenhow do I pursue those?
(17:26):
Um I think, you know, my storyis kind of interesting because I
spent, you know, I was 41 yearsold when I started Momstrom Man
Action.
I have five kids.
I put so much of my life into mywork and my family that I woke
up in my 50s when I decided toleave Momsterman Action.
And I was listening to a podcastone day.
I was folding clothes, and thepodcaster was like, if you don't
(17:48):
have five people you can call inthe middle of the night, you
don't have enough close friends.
And I thought, well, I have fivekids, you know, that covers it.
And he said, accept your family.
I thought, well, what's thepoint of having five kids if I
can't call them in the middle ofthe night?
But okay.
And I went on this journey tofind friends.
And I did what any type A womandoes.
I read all about it and I wrotedown like how to find friends,
(18:09):
and then I did it, right?
I started figuring out how toinvite people to coffee and how
to be vulnerable and how tofollow up and invite people to
go on vacation.
And now I be feel like I do havethose five friends.
But given that we're in apost-pandemic,
post-polarization, post-socialmedia world, and especially if
(18:31):
you are midlife like me, youknow, you you find yourself
without your kids being thecenter of your world, and you're
suddenly kind of figuring outwhat is the second half of my
life?
What is this next chapter?
And I think it's reallyimportant that it involves
friendships and community.
Absolutely.
And I want to talk about our thecurrent state of our nation.
(18:51):
But before we get to that, Iwant to read uh something from
the book that I felt was one ofmy favorite parts of the book.
And it says, I wasn't able tostart mom's demand action
because I'm extraordinary.
I was able to start because Ifollowed a specific formula.
The women you see online or inperson who are living the lives
you aspire to live aren'tunicorns either.
(19:14):
They're not more talented ordetermined or passionate than
you are.
The only difference between youand them is that they figure out
how to bring their desires,values, and abilities into
alignment, which is your fireformula.
Um, any woman can become a firestarter by following the formula
(19:34):
and activating their firetriangle.
Can you just quickly describethe three uh the three items
that make up the formula?
Yeah, you know, I when I meetpeople, so often they're like,
oh, well, you must be a bornleader, which makes me laugh
because first of all, I havesevere, untreated ADHD.
Um I barely passed middleschool, high school, and
(19:56):
college.
It wasn't really until I was inmy 20s and 30s that I figured
out how to navigate a systemthat was completely not made for
me.
Um I had no political knowledge.
I did not know how thelegislative system worked when I
started Mom Student Action.
I had never been an organizer.
Um I'm a very shy introvert andan only child.
(20:17):
And on top of that, I had adebilitating fear of public
speaking.
So not exactly someone peoplewould look to and say, oh, that
woman should take on the mostpowerful, wealthy, special
interests that ever existed.
And yet I was exactly the rightperson for the job, right?
My ADHD enabled me to, from themoment I woke up till the moment
I went to bed for 11 years, tohyperfocus on this issue that I
was incredibly passionate about.
(20:38):
I was able to overcome my fearof public speaking by just doing
it over and over again.
And I really do think this hasbeen very helpful for my
introversion because, you know,I'm someone who just sort of
wants to stay inside and to getout and to be with other people
has been very good for me.
So I think sometimes we feellike, who am I?
(20:59):
I don't have these qualities orthese qualifications.
And everyone, every single womanI've ever met with or talked
with is a leader in their owncapacity.
And it does come back to thisformula of values, abilities,
and desires.
You know, if you break it down,I just did an interview with or
um an event with Brene Brown inHouston, who's sort of the North
(21:20):
Star values research in thiscountry.
You know, there's hundreds, ifnot thousands, of them.
And they change throughout ourlives.
I don't think we think enoughabout what our values are at any
given moment.
And that is really a way toguide what it is that you want
to do next, whatever that mightbe, right?
And I list a lot of the valuesin the book.
(21:41):
People should look at them.
And there are a lot of exercisesto help you figure out, okay,
right now in my life, what do Ivalue and what does that mean
for the direction, thetrajectory of where I want to
go?
Um, the second is desires,right?
When I started Melance DemandAction, you know, I grew up in
Rochester, New York, where wewere taught that the activists
who passed through our town orwho lived in our town were like
(22:03):
superheroes, right?
Everyone from Harriet Chubman toum Susan B.
Anthony to Frederick Douglass,like all of those people we were
taught were superheroes.
And so I think when the massshooting tragedy happened at
Sandy Hope School, I thoughtsomeone has to step up, right?
And and I didn't realize thatwas going to be me, but it was.
And then I think the the the oneof the really key pieces of this
(22:26):
that we underplay so often aswomen is the abilities piece of
the formula.
Um I meet so many women whodownplay their abilities.
I was at an event the othernight and we were talking about
what women wanted.
And this woman was like, Ireally want to pursue something
in mental health.
My family has struggled withmental health issues.
I've taught people about mentalhealth, but I just don't have
the degree.
(22:47):
You don't have the degree, butyou have the passion, the
values, abilities, desires.
Like figure out maybe you'rewriting a Substack.
Maybe you're pulling together acommunity group.
There's so many ways to dothings that don't require you to
have, you know, a degree.
So in the book, I ask women,list all of your desires.
I don't, maybe that's like youhad a kick-ass birthday party
(23:08):
for your kids, right?
Those that's executivefunctioning.
What are all your abilities?
What are things that you havedone successfully?
And then the key piece of thisis then go ask people who love
you what they see as yourabilities because we don't see
them ourselves because wedownplay them.
Having someone else, friends,family, tell us what they see as
(23:28):
our abilities is very important.
Then you have this whole robustlist to remind you constantly of
what you're good at.
But it's also a list thatreminds you what you might need
to go get, right?
A lot of value or a lot ofabilities aren't intrinsic.
They're not inherent, they areacquired.
And so when you see yourabilities and you say, okay, I
(23:48):
am missing some of these thingsthat will help me achieve what I
want to achieve, then you can gopursue those.
So I think that's why I spent somuch time on the formula.
And again, you're gonnapractice, it's it's almost like
a discipline or a practice.
You're gonna have to try tobring these three things
together over and over again.
It might result in nothing, itmight result in something very
small, it might result insomething very big.
(24:10):
And it's just a practice that weshould be continuing to do
throughout our lives.
100%.
And I agree with you.
We don't make enough time tothink about these, and and you
make it.
I can't recommend the bookenough.
I didn't know what it was, whatto expect.
I mean, I have, but it it reallyis a guide.
I mean, every chapter has anaction item, which I really
(24:32):
appreciate, like an exercise forus to do, and like it also helps
with accountability, right?
Like you do it before you getinto the next so definitely
recommend it.
Um, Shannon, we're living inhealth.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Uh, you know, and and and I whenI talk to VAS members or
(24:54):
listeners or anybody uh, youknow, in person online, uh,
people are feeling scared,people are feeling discouraged,
uh, people are feeling unsure onof what to do.
What are you telling people thatare coming to you for advice?
First of all, I totallyunderstand feeling hopeless and
(25:18):
helpless.
I completely get it.
There are many times during theday when I feel like that too.
But it was Mary Am Kabe, she'san activist who said hope is a
discipline.
Just as I think hopelessness andhelplessness are a choice, so is
hope.
And so every morning you wake upand you decide which direction
you're going to go in.
Maybe many times through the dayyou make that decision.
(25:40):
What I saw in gun safetyactivism was often that people
who were cynical were making achoice to say, I know things are
bad, but I'm not going to act.
And I think that's very damagingin a democracy.
I think, you know, it was AliceWalker who said, rent or uh
activism is the rent I pay tolive on the planet.
No, I think we have to bethinking about democracy that
(26:03):
way.
And if you think about thesuffragists, right, who were
beaten, imprisoned, starved,they never saw the fruits of
their labor.
It took a hundred years for allwomen, not just white women, but
all women to have the right tovote.
And that is really whatdemocracy is about.
You're building the foundationso that when there is change,
(26:24):
people can act.
And that may not be, might notbe you.
You might not be around anymoreto see that.
It might be several generationslater.
But it's this idea of passing onthe torch.
And, you know, if you had toldme, for example, when I started
Mom's Demand Action thatVirginia would eventually be a
state that would pass over adozen good gun laws, I would
have said you were out of yourmind.
(26:45):
Even the senators in that statehad A ratings from the NRA when
I started Moms Demand Action,the Democratic senators, Mark
Warner, Tib Cain.
And it was so much work in adecade to get again, like uh 25%
of all Democrats in Congress in2012 had an A rating from NRA.
(27:06):
Today none do, right?
So to in Virginia to constantlyshow up the statehouse, to
constantly show up where thesenators were, to invest in
elections, to get out the vote.
Finally, it was really after themass shooting in Virginia Beach
when Republicans gaveled outafter 90 seconds without doing
(27:27):
anything, that the tide turned.
And we were able in the nextelection cycle to flip all three
chambers of the General Assemblyand to pass over a dozen good
gun laws, none of which wererolled back by the subsequent
Republican governor.
So we'd spent a decade buildingthe foundation so that we could
take action when there waschange.
(27:48):
And I think that's how we haveto think about our activism.
I understand the fear.
I know, I knew Melissa Hortman,the state rep who was murdered
in Minnesota.
But I also know that all thosethreats of death and sexual
violence I got, they wereintended to silence me.
They were intended to scare me.
And that's what's happeningright now in this country.
(28:10):
They want to silence and scareus so that we don't act.
And that should outrage us,especially those of us with
privilege.
I also think, you know, let'ssay your kid is sick and it's 2
a.m.
and you're exhausted, they'vebeen throwing up all night.
You don't look at them and say,you know what?
I have an early meeting, I haveto go to bed, but I'll check
(28:31):
back in with you at 8 a.m.
and see how you're feeling.
Right?
We would never do that.
We hold that kid's hand untilthey're better.
And I think democracy is thesame way.
Like we have to hold democracy'shand until it's better.
Wow.
I love that.
Um you said something about umactivism, and and I love that
(28:52):
quote.
Uh and recently I was having aconversation with someone, and
they said, you know, well, wejust need to come up with a new
word because activism andactivist, it, you know, scares
people.
This is a group of professionalwomen, uh, you know, uh, we're
in the finance sector, we're incorporate America, we're in
(29:12):
philanthropy across the board.
But it saddened me, to behonest.
It was like, what what about theword activism makes you think
that it's a dirty word?
Like, you know, it just, I don'tknow.
Uh have you ever heard that frompeople?
Like, um, and what do you whatdo you think it's associated
(29:33):
with?
Is it associated with uhsocietal expectations?
Is it demon professional?
What do you think about thatstatement?
I mean, I I write about this inthe book.
I I felt that way up to the St.
Uk school shooting.
You know, I was a corporateexecutive, I'm mommy five, I'm
living in a suburban area ofIndiana.
(29:54):
And I thought, you know, I haveto get activated.
And then I thought about theword activist.
And I think what it reminded Meof is like people who chain
themselves to offense orsomething, you know, like this
incredibly radical behavior.
And it's not, right?
It's just you are a keeper ofthe democratic flame.
You're you're someone whosupports democracy, who's
exercising the rights thatyou're supposed to allegedly
(30:16):
have through the constitution.
Um, and and you know, I thinkwith so many words, we often
want to like rename them sothey're more palatable people to
people.
But what we really should bedoing is sort of embracing them
and making them represent whatit is that we mean or what we
want.
Um, I very proudly considermyself an activist.
And maybe if more of us did, youknow, we would be using our
(30:39):
votes and our voices to makechange.
Absolutely.
I also want to acknowledge thefear that a lot of uh
professional women are arefeeling, especially with all the
five.
I mean, unfortunately, you know,we have corporate America.
Um, don't know if you guys watchKamala's interview with Kara um
on the pivot, I think it was thepivot uh podcast.
(30:59):
Yeah.
She said, you know, with allthese CEOs being so
transactional, and how she wassurprised, she wasn't surprised
that they came, but she wassurprised of how fast it
happened and how transactionalit was, right?
And uh, because they they'resmart people, they know what's
happening.
And now we are seeing thefiring, a lot of black women are
uh being fired and let go andnot able to secure jobs.
(31:22):
Um, we're also seeing a lot ofuh people get fired over their
social posts.
So, how would you coach womenwho want to do something um but
are also afraid of potentialbacklash uh with their employer
or business?
One thing I would say is I justdid an interview with Professor
(31:44):
Anna Gepte.
Um she wrote a book called TheDouble Tax, which is really
interesting.
It's it's really focused onblack women and how they're
suffering in this economy.
But if she says black women arejust the canary in the coal mine
because what comes next happensto all of us, right?
And so we should all be smartand we should all know that.
So I highly recommend the book,The Double Tax, or check out our
interview.
Um it's on book substack, and weposted a clip on Instagram, but
(32:07):
she's amazing and she's actuallyon book tour right now.
Um but I don't want to downplaythat fear at all.
And I do think that's why peoplewho have privilege and who
aren't in the vulnerable place,the onus is on us so much to
step up.
You know, that's how I feltabout gun violence prevention
too.
Um, you know, I had someone makea suggestion.
(32:30):
I I think women are just likeinvincible and amazing,
especially when they cometogether in community.
And I was on book tour, youknow, a few months ago, and I
someone, a woman had this ideaand she said, I'm a lawyer.
What if I got together withother lawyers in my community
and we found out which womenwere vulnerable because, you
know, maybe they had beenadmonished or even fired from
(32:50):
their jobs for exercising theirrights in a democracy?
And what if what if we couldsupport them?
Because so many of these people,for example, who were fired or
penalized after the Charlie Kirkshooting tragedy unjustly have
been reinstated because of thework of lawyers.
And so I think it's on us ascommunities to come together and
say, okay, who are the women inour community who are vulnerable
(33:13):
or suffering and how do weprotect them?
And have sort of theseinnovative ways of doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
I have a question.
Hi, I'm Vanessa Morrison and uhShannon really enjoyed your
talk.
And thank you so much for justthe inspiration and the insights
and perspectives.
And I get really energized bythese conversations and the
thought of having thiscollectivism and coming together
as women, and our power is somuch more, it's stronger
(33:41):
together.
But it just seems like sometimesin the daily practice of trying
to do that, it can be difficult.
And luckily, the Vest platformcreates a platform for us to be
able to come together and sharethis power and be in community
and share resources.
But I'm just curious, from yourperspective, like from a daily
practice point of view, how canwe really hold ourselves
(34:04):
accountable to doing thiscollective work even outside of
forums like this?
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Oh, I love this question.
And the part of the reason Ilove it is because I have been
shocked that women have taken mybook and now they are meeting in
person where they live.
So in over 25 states now, thereare bonfires where these women
are just coming together andthey are meeting about personal,
political, and professionalempowerment.
(34:32):
You know, if you ask me, do Iknow who my neighbors are, the
answer is no, probably in thelast few states I've lived in.
And what I have seen is thepower of community, particularly
when, let's be honest, there'snot going to be a lot that we
can do at a federal level.
There's so much that we can dowhen we know our neighbors, when
we can know who's suffering, orwe know what's on the agenda at
(34:53):
our city council, or we knowwhat our school board is talking
about, um, or we know womenwho've been laid off, et cetera,
right?
And that all happens locally andin community.
And I can remember after theelection loss, so many people
were talking about community.
And I was kind of like, is thatjust something we're saying, or
is that real?
And I really do think it's realbecause if we have joy, if we
(35:15):
have connection, if we havevalue where we live, then we
have a lot.
And that can get us through andit can help us create that
foundation that I was talkingabout.
So that is a long way of sayingfind the community where you
live.
Maybe you want to join ifanybody wants to join or lead a
bonfire, let me know.
Uh my email is just ShannonRWatts at gmail.
(35:38):
So I'm happy to connect you to abonfire that might already exist
where you are.
If you want to start one, let meknow.
But there are also lots ofcommunity groups, you know,
where you live.
I can remember during thepandemic, you know, when I was
going through that whole thingof trying to find friends, I
found a hiking group where Ilived at the time in the East
Bay.
So I, you know, I think Vanessa,like so many things, it's
(35:59):
carving out time, which bringsme to another part of the book.
I talk about something called acontrolled burn.
You know, when you hear about aprescribed burn in real life,
it's something that's beenpracticed for eons, this idea of
how do we protect the, how do weprotect nature from wildfires?
And so we do a prescribed burnwhere we burn some things.
(36:22):
And if you apply that to yourown life, you do an audit of the
things that you no longer needor the things that are maybe
usurping so much of yourvaluable time.
Part of my interviews with womenfor the book, you know, we
talked about a controlled burnthat they had done in their own
lives.
One woman looked at the amountthat she was drinking during the
(36:42):
pandemic and decided that thatwas taking too much of her
capacity, right?
Um, there are a lot of peoplewho talk about doom scrolling or
watching Instagram reels, whichI am very guilty of, or, you
know, being on TikTok, socialmedia can often be a big drain
on her time.
But maybe there are also rolesthat you've taken on that that
(37:02):
you don't necessarily have todo.
Uh, another woman talked abouthow she has an eating disorder.
Part of her prescribed burn wasgetting rid of all the clothes
in her closet that were holdingher to this very small standard
that she could never meet.
And it was taking up so much ofher bandwidth in her brain.
So if you if you read throughthe book, there are exercises of
ways you can audit the things inyour life that might be taking
(37:24):
up time that you could spend onfinding your community or
staying in your community andtapping into community.
I totally agree with you that itis hard, but I do think it's
such an important piece ofstaying well right now.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I appreciate those tangibletakeaways and strategies.
And it does feel like a lot oftimes when I am in these spaces,
it's very professionalproduction, you know,
production.
Right.
Like we're producing, we'recreating, we're working.
And it would be nice to havemore of like just, hey, let's
(37:59):
just like socialize, let's justbe in so much of that, and I'm
so grateful for it.
But yeah, it feels nice not tojust always be in work
production mode, but just be incommunity, get to know your
neighbors, and just hold spacefor one another.
So thank you for that.
Those useful takeaways.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
Uh Shannon, I want to ask you something that I
think um a lot of uh moms, uhparticularly boy moms, are
struggling with right now.
Yeah, the radicalization thathas taken place um on social
media with some of these maleinfluencers.
But now, as we I'm sure you'veall seen the political article
(38:41):
that came out yesterday, andit's even with social clubs that
are supposed to be, you know,social clubs um for um young
adults.
Um and I'm don't want to assume,but maybe the team can put the
political um article on thechat.
(39:02):
But basically, young Republicanclaw leaders were texting um
anti-um anti-Semitic, uh,racist, and misogynistic uh text
messages to dangerous and andextremely concerning.
And and my and and what I thinkit's sad is that we've
normalized so much of this,right?
Like so many people is like, oh,but that's just poly.
(39:24):
Oh, well, they're just boys.
Are you hearing this from othermoms?
And again, how do we how do wesupport them?
I have referrals, I still worry.
You know, I I actually textedthe article to my daughter who's
in college, and she was like,Oh, yeah, mom, that's how they
talk.
And I was just like, What?
Uh, even in college at clubs,right?
(39:46):
In groups and fraternities.
Um yeah.
So um I'm gonna make anotherbook recommendation.
There's a book called Boy Mom byRuth Whitman, and it's all about
in just what's happening rightnow with young men in this
country, but also in particular,what's happening with white
young men in this country.
(40:07):
Um, I'm the mom of a white25-year-old son.
And, you know, this is somethingthat I have been worried about
for a very long time.
He was born in 2000, so he sortof came of age in the social
media environment.
And, you know, I do think it'sparents' role to monitor what
their children are seeingonline.
There's all these studies.
A study came out last week fromCommon Sense Media.
(40:29):
You know, boys are so exposed toporn and pressure to be
masculine and what that means interms of how they look and how
they act.
Um, it's so toxic and sodangerous, particularly in a
nation with 400 million guns incirculation, right?
It's like the perfect storm forcreating incels and people who
are dangerous.
(40:50):
I'll just be honest, there's apart of me that gets so angry
about this idea that we have tospend so much time caring about
young, privileged men and theirloneliness.
Like I resent it.
But on the other hand, I've seenwhat happens when you ignore it.
And so, like, there's this sortof catch-22 of, you know, women
don't own this.
Women have their own problems.
(41:11):
And we've been a, you know, wehold 25% of the 500,000 elected
positions in this country.
We're less than 5% of fortune,1,000 CEOs.
Like we we don't have power andwe aren't killing people.
And yet, like that, this is whathappens to our families if we
don't pay attention to it.
So I I do think this is acrisis.
(41:31):
Um, and let's just be honest.
I mean, it's how it's in manyways how Donald Trump and has
won the election, has stayed inpower, will continue, you know,
that that party will continue tostay in power.
If it, I mean, I don't know howmany of you saw that basically
the vice president came out andcondoned what these young
Republicans said and or excusedit.
(41:52):
And that is terrifying to me,you know, that that all of these
racist, bigoted, misogynistremarks, supporting everything
from rape to to murder, youknow, I I it should terrify all
of us.
You know, empathy has started tobe seen now as a toxic trait in
our society, and that's exactlywhat we need.
(42:13):
So I guess what I'm saying isthis is not our fault.
And yet I do think that that weneed to be aware of it,
especially if we have sons andboth parents have a role in the
to play in making sure they knowwhat their boys are doing and
what they're thinking and howthey're behaving.
But also, I think this is suchan important time for women to
(42:36):
figure out, you know, what ourvalues, abilities, and desires,
and how can we bring those tobear?
Because what men need are morerole models of women who are
empathetic and who are not gonnabe silent.
And this is a little bit of atangent, but you know, I the the
the most common deathbed regretin the world is that you didn't
(42:56):
live a life that's true to you.
And so when I interviewed allthese women for this book, I
thought, I'm gonna ask them thisquestion, they're all gonna say
the same thing.
They all said the same thing,but that wasn't their deathbed
regret.
They were worried that theirdeathbed regret would be that
they spent so much time focusedon what they wanted that they
sacrificed their children.
(43:16):
Which is so interesting becausea man would never say that,
right?
And I think a lot of us are sotied up in raising our children
that we forget to go after whatwe want or we feel that we don't
deserve it or we just don't doit.
And I interview experts who say,you know, your children, and
this includes your sons, theyactually want you to have other
things that you're focused on inyour life because it's a lot of
(43:39):
pressure on them to beeverything, but also you're
setting an example for them.
And so that's what I think is soimportant about what we do is
that we're setting an examplefor young men.
Absolutely.
Um, and I love something that Ithink it's so true.
You mentioned it earlier about,you know, when people ask, who
are the five people that youcall and you said your kids?
(44:00):
I don't know if you went throughit.
But as my girls grew older and,you know, moved to college and
so on.
I I always tell women, don'tattach your identity to your
business, to your project, toyour title.
But I had attached my identityto being a mom.
And when they left me and wantednothing to do with me, I had an
(44:20):
identity crisis.
I was like, wait a minute, I'mlonely.
I don't have any friends, youknow, and um, so, anyways, I
just um I think you're right.
I think we need to prioritizeourselves and not, I mean, the
identity of a mom is alsoattachment, right?
Yeah, I mean, we we are thewealthiest, healthiest
generation Gen Xers that's everexisted in history.
(44:42):
And unlike, you know, my mom,who was born in 1949, you know,
she was, after I left forschool, sort of expected to take
up a hobby and disappear, fadeinto the background.
I think it's JD Vance who alsosaid that menopausal women, the
whole role is to, I guess,babysit grandkids.
That's just not the caseanymore.
You know, our we have morewisdom and in many cases more
(45:05):
energy left in our second half.
And we should be thinking aboutwhat do we want to do until the
very end.
And that's why I interview womenin their 60s, 70s, 80s, and
beyond for my book, because thethe most vibrant volunteers for
Mom Student Action were womenwho are retired.
You know, those were the oneswho just got shit done.
So I really do think that weshould be thinking about a
(45:26):
post-emptiness world and what itis that we want to do, because
in many ways we're just gettingstarted.
100%.
And since we're talking aboutlabels and, you know, identities
and stuff like that, um, at VAS,we actually, this was
pre-election.
I can't remember when we had it,but we actually had a
conversation about thepsychology around putting labels
(45:48):
to young women.
And we were discussing the tradwives and the cat ladies, you
know, after JD Vance um uh saidthat, you know, women who don't
have children are just sad catladies or whatever.
Um, we actually had aconversation about that and and
the psychology and and what thatdoes to young women did not
correlate it, not as much towhat is happening now, and you
(46:10):
know, how we've talked aboutsocial media and how the social
media influencers are usingculture and some of these labels
to also lure voters or or thepeople that follow them into a
certain voting pattern, right?
So just curious to know ifyou've had these type of
conversations with uh with womenand volunteers about this
(46:31):
Tradwife movement and um andwhat your advice is for us.
I mean, I think it comes down tothe algorithm.
You know, the algorithm isarming all of us and it's
encouraging us to hate oneanother.
I mean, we can't even have likea Taylor Swift album without it
turning into this veryincredibly divisive thing.
(46:54):
And that's because we're beingserved all this stuff online.
Um, it's a struggle for me.
You know, I'm wrestling withlike what do I do with social
media?
It's on one hand an importantcommunity.
On the other hand, like, am Ibeing harmed or am I harming
others?
And I think it's something thatit's a reckoning that we all
have to figure out in theabsence of governmental action.
I mean, a long time ago,presidents on both sides should
(47:17):
have regulated social media sothat we're not being exposed to
this.
But yes, I mean, I think thewhole reason the Trump
administration has been sosuccessful is because they
understand how to tap into thoseincendiary cultural points that
make us all take positions.
And this is an intentioneconomy.
(47:37):
So if you're getting attention,then you're winning.
And all of those things, thisidea of, you know, we're all
gonna go back to church andwomen are going to stay in the
home and men are going to havethe power.
I mean, this is not what thegeneral population wants, and
yet we're being told it is.
And when you're living online,that's what you see.
(47:58):
So, you know, I think that thatwe keep coming back to this idea
of community, but Twitter is notreal life.
That is not how people talk toone another.
It's not the opinions peoplehold.
Real life is much different.
And if we aren't plugged intopeople where we live and we
aren't having conversations thatchange hearts and minds, and we
aren't hearing people's feedbackand opinions and without that
(48:20):
sort of algorithmic um silo,then it's it's really becomes
very dangerous.
And you know, this this is allintertwined.
I mean, we this goes back toyoung men too, who are living in
the algorithm.
For sure.
Um, yeah, and then there's awhole other conversation, right?
When we talk about who'sdesigning the algorithms and the
(48:43):
AI now with Sora and Men, allmen.
Yes, yes, and and and alsoregulating bodies, right?
When we look at who actuallyregulating AI, there's very few
women, if at all.
Um, so yeah.
Um, any more questions from uhVAS members?
Uh during this part of ourcoaching session, a VAS member
(49:06):
shares she was navigating anincredibly difficult situation
involving alleged sexual abuseand misconduct.
She asked for guidance on how tofind the courage to speak up and
protect others.
To respect her privacy, weedited that portion out.
But we did want to shareShannon's powerful reflection on
what it takes to act withcourage in moments that truly
(49:29):
demand it.
First of all, thank you for whatyou're doing and thank you for
being brave.
And I can remember after theelection, I did a substantial
guide with Jessica Yellen.
I don't know if you know her sheis, she runs News Not Noise on
Instagram.
And she said in the next fouryears, everyone is going to have
their own Ann Frank moment wherethey have to decide how they are
(49:50):
going to be brave and help otherpeople at the risk to
themselves.
So whether it's, you know, whatyou're doing, or whether it's
people going to the No Kingsrally this weekend, or, you
know, it just can look so manydifferent ways for so many
different people.
And that is the work in thismoment for sure.
(50:12):
Part of our members' questionalso included the need to talk
about holding our the leaders inour own communities accountable.
So here's a continuation ofthat.
I think it's relevant because alot of people often tell me, oh,
that's great.
We just need more women inpower.
Or we just need more Latinos inpower.
But representation, as proven,it's not always, you know, like
(50:36):
we also need to do a lot of workinternally ourselves as Latinos.
I tell people all the time,like, um we need to do the work
and deconstruct a lot of thingsthat we've been thought uh or
that we think are right beforewe serve, right?
Because otherwise we're justcreating more problems and we're
being more extractive than weare contributing to our
(50:59):
community and to the well-beingof our community.
So just curious to know ifyou've with women, you know,
working with women, um we'reobviously seeing a lot of women
that are not necessarilyfighting for women's rights that
are in office.
They're not necessarily fightingfor other women who need access
to healthcare with the ACA, andthey know that their state is
(51:20):
going to be affected, but they,I guess, are not willing to
compromise or even talk aboutit.
Um, so one is one you to closeus out with any action items
that you have for us,specifically if you want, if you
have one for how do we deal withhow do we keep women accountable
and people in leadership in ourcommunities, whether it's the
(51:42):
Latino community, the blackcommunity, whatever, accountable
when they are in positions ofleadership.
Well, I mean, I think thankingand shaming people, you know,
it's it's as as old as activismand it is, it works.
I mean, for those who still havesome shame, and it's how Moms
Demand Action was able to stopthe NRA's agenda 90% of the time
(52:05):
for over a decade, right?
And pass over 500 gun laws.
Thanking and shaming peopletypically works.
I also do think there's a moralimperative for women to run for
office in this country.
As I said, we only hold about25% of the 500,000 elected
positions.
And I promise you, the 85%, youknow, men who are in office are
not super healthy and uh smart.
(52:28):
So, like, you know, I've beenin, I've sat in a lot of state
houses, and these are a lot ofthem are not rocket scientists.
So I do think that there's anonus on us.
And I don't care if that's likecounty coroner or city sheriff
or whatever.
It doesn't have to be Congressor president.
Think about an office you canserve in and either run yourself
or encourage other women to run.
Emerge America is a greatorganization for that.
(52:49):
I'm on the board.
Um, and then I would just say,you know, next best step.
I I would love for you all tofigure out your own fire
formula.
What are your values, abilities,and desires, and how can that
lead you in the next direction?
And you can, I'm I'm at mostsocial media at Shannon R.
Watts.
I read all my DMs on Instagram.
If you enjoyed the episode,share with a friend and don't
(53:11):
forget to leave us a review.
And if you're ready to take yourcareer to the next level, apply
to join our community of womenprofessionals, eager to help you
get there and stay there.
Go to www.besther.co to learnmore.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.