October 23, 2023 • 51 mins
In this episode we talk about overcoming fear of failure with Sarah Amico, Chair of Jack Cooper Holdings, North America’s largest car hauling company and Women-Owned Enterprise. We discuss Sarah’s journey building a company where she employs thousands of hard working union workers, in the midst of the auto workers strike. Her approach to managing setbacks when she was the Democratic nominee for Lt. Governor in Georgia and ran alongside Stacey Abrams, as well as her 2020 senate race, and the bias women face when it comes to risk taking.
About Sarah
Sarah Riggs Amico is the Chairperson of Jack Coopers Holding Corp., America's largest North America’s largest car hauling company and Women-Owned Enterprise. In this capacity, Sarah oversees the Company’s Board, Strategy, Mergers & Acquisitions, and Human Capital Development. Prior to joining Jack Cooper, Sarah was the Head of Strategic Planning at APA Talent and Literary Agency in Beverly Hills. Sarah, began her tenure in media at the William Morris Agency in both Beverly Hills and New York across a variety of departments, including The Mailroom Fund, a seed capital fund raised in partnership with AT&T, Venrock and Accel Partners. During her time in the entertainment industry, she worked on initiatives for some of the world's largest and most recognizable brands, including Time Inc., Reader's Digest, Amtrak, Harry & David, and Virgin America Airlines. Sarah received her B.A. in Politics from Washington & Lee University and M.B.A. from Harvard Business School. Aside from her Corporate America career, Sarah was the Democratic nominee for Lieutenant Governor in Georgia, running alongside Stacey Abrams in 2018. Sarah ran again in 2020 for the U.S. Senate. Click here for Sarah's full bio and show notes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the investable barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Almost every opportunity I've had has started
in failure of some sort,whether it was mine or somebody
else's right.
You're buying a business out ofbankruptcy, or you're buying a
business upon the verge ofcollapse, or you're starting
something because somebody elsecouldn't get it done.
That really gave me, from avery early age in my career, the
perception that not only wasfailure not fatal, but that
(01:02):
sometimes failure was the mostfertile ground for opportunity.
Blazing a trail is messy.
I watched the Cinec campaignand then took my company through
a bankruptcy and I did it forall the right reasons and I
wouldn't change a damn thing.
When we make decisions thatalign with our values, even when
they don't work out down theroad, it's going to feel
(01:24):
understandable why we made thosedecisions.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
In this episode, we talk about ways to overcome fear
of failure with Sarah Emiko,executive chairperson of Jack
Cooper's Holdings, northAmerica's largest car-hauling
company and women-ownedenterprise.
We also discuss Sarah's approachto building a company where she
employs thousands ofhardworking union workers in the
midst of the auto worker strike, her approach to managing
(01:50):
setbacks when she was aDemocratic nominee for
Lieutenant Governor in Georgiaand ran alongside Stacey Abrams,
as well as her 2020 Senate raceand the biased women phase when
it comes to risk taking.
This episode is made possiblethanks to our venture arm,
vestor Ventures, a venturecapital firm investing in
(02:10):
women-led companies, buildingtools, products and services
that enable women and workingfamilies to try both at work and
at home, and by our Vestmembership, a community made up
of professional women acrossindustries, regions and career
levels, working together tocreate the future of more
inclusive workspaces.
If you're interested inlearning more about Vestor
(02:33):
Ventures and Vestpeer Network,go to wwwvestherco.
If you enjoy the episode, shareit with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session with
Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'm in the business of building businesses.
So right out of business schoolI went to a startup that was
doing software consulting in NewYork and New Delhi in India and
the revenue had grown frommaybe one or two million dollars
to ten million dollars reallyquickly and the founder, who was
(03:14):
effectively a programmer,recruited some of us from
Harvard Business School to comein and help sort of set up the
infrastructure and managementsystems.
So right out of school it wassort of in out of the frying pan
into the fire.
And my first day of work Istill remember the other two
people he had hired that startedat the same time I did.
(03:34):
Both became engagement managerson the consulting teams.
And then he sort of looked atme and said you'll have to tell
me at the end of the week whatyou're going to do.
And he said I just liked yourbackground and I think you'll
add value and I'm not reallysure that we want to just put
you on client teams.
So tell me what you think youcould do.
And over the next two years Iended up building out their CRM
(03:57):
process, interviewing literallyevery client the company had
ever had to sort of get a senseof where the strengths and
opportunities were and it wasfantastic, but it was building
up the infrastructure of abusiness so that it could scale.
I left because, as much as Iloved working with my boss and
as much as I love theentrepreneurial environment, I
(04:20):
had really no passion forsoftware consulting.
And my husband's an engineerwho runs a data privacy tech
startup, vc backed, and he'slike I literally don't
understand how you were ever insoftware anything, because I am
the liberal arts person in thefamily.
I've been good at math for along time, but I don't have
multiple masters in engineeringlike he does, and so I went from
(04:44):
there and I think I thoughtthis was a wonderful first
experience.
But I need to do something Ifeel more passionately about,
and I ended up spending the nexteight years really almost a
decade in media and starting inthe William Morris agency
mailroom, so literally pushing amail card.
And you have to remember atthis point I'm like a few years
(05:05):
out of Harvard business schooland I'm pushing and delivering
mail on at the bottom of thetotem pole with kids that like
haven't graduated college yet,who are the assistants, right?
So be careful, I think, is themoral of the story.
When you pray for humility.
Sometimes you will get it andbut I loved the experience.
I loved the comradery thatformed as we were all starting
(05:28):
out as equals and sort of makingour way up in this industry and
again in the agency world.
I was very fortunate because Imoved up really quickly and a
few years later I was adepartment head already working
with corporate clients In theagency.
You're always building abusiness right, because you have
(05:48):
to come in and build your ownclient list.
You have to generate revenues.
I can tell you there is verylittle sympathy when you're
unable to perform in thatrespect.
And then when I finally gotpromoted, it was partially due
to the Mailroom Fund.
They were raising the seedcapital media fund with Ben Rock
and Excel and AT&T and theyrealized they had a Harvard MBA
(06:12):
sitting and answering somebody'sphones in the corporate
consulting department and theywere like you can come and be
the day to day person on thefund.
So you know, it again wasstartup world.
And then when I went andimmediately, like within a year
of that, was poached to go andstart a rival agency's
department.
It was starting the departmentfrom scratch.
(06:35):
And then a funny thing happenedmy husband's from Italy and so
we were very far away in LosAngeles from my family, which
was all in Georgia at that time.
I grew up in the Midwest but myfamily's all sort of migrated
down to Georgia and his familyis still in Italy, so we were
just very far.
We had our first daughter and Icame home on maternity leave
(06:59):
right before I was going to goback to work and I don't know if
it was the hormones or thefamily or an elegant cocktail of
both, but we bought a house inGeorgia and that was very hard
to explain going back to workand I loved my boss at APA,
where I was their departmenthead for brand integration and
marketing.
(07:19):
I loved him.
Still, talk to him to stay,still consider him a mentor.
And we went out to lunch and Isaid I bought a house and he
said, oh, that's great, honey,where did you buy a house?
And I'm like good, georgia,sorry, you know.
Like you know and, to hiscredit, like he was like okay,
how do we keep you?
And so I worked remotely, youknow, from from Georgia for the
(07:41):
next couple of years.
Eventually I joined the board.
I had been an owner as a familymember in a logistics business
and joined the board in 2011.
So I had two jobs on two coastswith two kids under three.
That was fun.
I didn't sleep a lot.
But over the next few years itbecame really obvious that there
(08:04):
were opportunities to grow ourfamily business in the logistics
space through mergers andacquisitions and
recapitalization.
So my dad's been a turnaroundCEO for the better part of four
decades.
We sort of find all of thesebusinesses that are either on
the verge of collapse or maybeare in bankruptcy or maybe need
(08:26):
to be restructured, thateverybody else has given up on.
And I guess we're a sucker forthe long shot because we like to
go in and try to fix them, butto do it in a way that puts
valuing people and the dignityof work and workers and labor
rights first and that alwaysthrows people off because
they're not used to seeing thatin the restructuring world.
(08:47):
And eventually I came on boardfull time and within a year our
CEO had resigned unexpectedly,retired early, and the board
voted to put me in as theexecutive chairman.
And it was like mid 30s and, youknow, had two little kids and
(09:11):
all of a sudden was theexecutive chairman of a $600
million company and it was anincredible opportunity, but it
was coming in at a moment wherewe had had a very large
acquisition that didn't go wellon the integration the debt was
picking, was pickable, so it wasballooning very quickly and
(09:36):
where we had reached a size andscale in our market where our
customers felt like eliminatingrisk in their supply chain meant
that they had to downsize theamount of business that they had
.
And so, as much as it was anincredible opportunity, it was
also walking into the eye of thestorm.
You know, my first week aschairman was the one of my first
(09:59):
weeks as chairman was the Ebolacrisis in West Africa and we
had trade lanes and an NBOCCbusiness heading into West
Africa and I'm literally tryingto get our team out of Legos on
like the last flight that'sgoing to leave.
And that was the easiest thingI did that year, probably.
(10:22):
So it was baptism by fire, butif you look at where we've come,
the business that we startedwith was like $28 million and
maybe 100 employees in 2008.
So my dad bought the firstbusiness in the middle of the
Great Recession and then, as afamily, about a year later, in
(10:42):
2009, we bought Jack Cooper,which was 10 times our size and
on the brink of collapse.
After almost 90 years inexistence.
And right about the time wewere all high fiving each other
for helping save jobs, gm andChrysler, who were our two
biggest customers at the time,filed for bankruptcy and we
(11:06):
found ourselves on the frontline of the auto bailout and the
Great Recession kicking andscrapping just to make payroll
sometimes.
And from there we're now atlike 26, 2700 employees.
I think that's actually lightbecause the supply chain
(11:27):
disruption is still prettysevere in auto and of course now
we have a strike.
So I'm sure you're all awarebut and we're tracking at about
680 million in revenue.
So from that like veryrelatively small initial
business, we've come a long wayand and that's amazing and it's
(11:48):
a pleasure to be a part of it.
But again, the theme Erica waskind of growing businesses and I
don't think the growth per seis what I'm most proud of.
It's amazing.
But I think the thing that I'mproud of is that our drivers,
our union, our pension they willtake my call.
I know them, I know theirleadership.
(12:10):
I think there's mutual respect.
I'm proud that we've given ourpeople fully funded catalog
health care, whether they'reunion or not, and that we pay
100 percent of the premiums, notjust for our employees but for
their families too.
I'm proud that when we wentthrough our own really painful
restructuring in a Chapter 11bankruptcy in 2019, so not that
(12:35):
long ago Nobody lost their job,nobody lost their health care,
no union members lost theirseniority or their union
retirement or their pension, andthe something had to give and
our family sort of decided thatthat would be us.
We forfeited our equity torestructure the business and and
(12:58):
, as a result, everybody kepttheir jobs and their health care
, and that was really hard to do.
I launched a Senate campaign inthe middle of that that 10 out
of 10 do not recommend.
Very hard to translate that kindof nuance into the political
universe, but I wanted people toknow what it looks like for
working families and forbusinesses that try to do the
(13:19):
right thing by their employees,how hard it is to compete and
how much the market penalizes ussometimes for that.
And so you know I don't regretit for a minute, and in the end,
we were able to buy thebusiness back.
Later, of course, as we boughtit back, the pandemic took off,
(13:40):
so we have interesting timing onall fronts.
But on the other side of that,I think the business is stronger
, leaner, more efficient, and Ifeel a sense of purpose that
really exceeds anything I'veever felt about making sure
there is some example out therefor people to point to where the
good guys can still win andwhere the business owners don't
(14:03):
have to be the bad guys in thenarrative where you can do the
right thing and still do welland still generate a return for
your investors.
Sorry for the long answer, Erica.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Don't apologize.
I think you should be going toevery university to talk to,
especially our youngergenerations that are coming in,
because I think you're theperfect representation of like
listen, we get a.
Capitalism has been broken andit has been providing the same
access to opportunities toeveryone, but there is hope and
there are leaders like Sarahbuilding great companies with
(14:38):
employees at mind, so I lovethat and thank you for sharing.
You lead one of the largest carhauling enterprises in North
America, not just the US.
You employ thousands ofhardworking union workers.
In light of the strike and thelabor disputes in the industry,
how do you see the role ofbuilding collaborative
(15:00):
relationships to address thechallenges by both the company
and the workers and like how you, you know, optimize profit
still while providing all ofthose benefits?
What strategies have you usedand how do you continue to find
common ground?
What can you share?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, I mean, look, my view is this is the process,
right?
It's unfortunate that sometimesthat process leads to a work
stoppage or a strike, but it isthe process.
This is the collectivebargaining that ultimately
protects everyone in theecosystem, right?
I'm not sure that my firstpriority is always optimizing
(15:41):
profit for just shareholdervalue.
I think sometimes it'soptimizing profit and prosperity
for the stakeholders, andthat's a very different thing.
Right, that includes yourcustomers, it includes your
workers, it includes, of course,your investors, right, but it
also includes the communitieswhere we live and work.
We try to have a real, physicaland visible presence in the
(16:03):
dozens of places across thecontinent where we have work
locations.
So it's painful.
As somebody who loves the autoindustry, my granddad was a
custodial worker on a assemblyplant line in St Louis for
General Motors.
My dad went to college on ascholarship from General Motors,
where he would work six weeksin a factory and then go to
(16:27):
college for six weeks.
So every six weeks he wasmoving back and forth from
Michigan to St Louis, flint toSt Louis, and that's how we paid
for college.
And it was really the onlychance unless you had an
athletic scholarship for someoneto go to college that had no
(16:48):
family support really.
And so it's painful.
I love the products that wemove, I love our customers and
what they mean, not just to theeconomy and to the jobs they
create, but to what it saysabout American ingenuity and our
ability to build great thingsthat transform lives.
And at the same time, there hasto be a resolution that is good
(17:16):
for all sides, and that'sreally hard.
And look, we live in a worldright now where this is hard on
a lot of fronts.
We have a Congress that can'tpick a speaker.
Right now, we have two warswhere we can't seem to get a lot
of consensus on acceptableoutcomes for both sides.
(17:41):
So does it surprise me thatwe're seeing this moment where,
across the labor landscapewhether that's Hollywood right,
my old stomping grounds, orwhether it's the auto workers or
nurses who walked out at KaiserPermanente no, it doesn't
surprise me at all.
This is a moment of reckoningabout what capitalism looks like
(18:04):
today and how we make it workfor everyone, because it can.
It's a total myth that youcan't do good and do well.
It's a total myth thatmanagement and labor have to be
on separate sides and atloggerheads.
And it's a total myth that theprosperity we create for our
investors can't be shared acrossthe people that make the
(18:27):
business possible.
And I think if I were going tothose colleges, erica, what I
would say is it's not reallyabout me or the Jack Cooper
story, although I'm very proudto be a part of it.
Every single one of those kidssitting in a freshman seminar
this year can do that, all ofthem.
(18:48):
You know, the inequity existsbecause we permit it to exist,
because we don't ask for anddemand better, and that doesn't
mean that you can't produce areturn.
I'm in a capital intensivebusiness, right Like I have
these massive trucks and they'relike $250 to $300,000 apiece
(19:09):
that we have to invest and theyonly last for a certain number
of years and we have thousandsof them.
So we have to generate a return.
We're in a capital intensivebusiness where we have to go out
and raise money in the markets,particularly in debt capital
markets.
But we have to accept the factthat when we have these seasons
of sort of prosperity, there's alot at stake in letting
(19:33):
everybody participate.
That and it doesn't takeanything away from the investors
.
It doesn't take anything awayfrom the management teams.
I think it shows that we're allrowing in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
One of the reasons why we started StitchGrew, our
nonprofit arm for supportingentrepreneurs, and our slogan is
literally building a moreinclusive economy through
entrepreneurship, is because we100% agree with you.
If we work with entrepreneursyou know, obviously I'm biased,
but particularly women andpeople of color who have been
divested for decades I trulybelieve that if we get in early
(20:09):
and we start talking aboutbuilding equitable systems and
equitable companies, I dobelieve that we can demand and
expect better and do betterourselves.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I was just gonna say I think your point.
I just wanna click on thisbecause obviously you know, as a
family business, even thoughour family didn't come from any
money, right, I still remembermy dad losing his job when I was
11, and that being one of mymost formative memories and
actually a colleague of mine whostill works with us to this day
bought our groceries that weekand I didn't learn that until I
(20:42):
was, you know, an adult.
So I understand that piece.
But I also understand I sit ata point of a lot of privilege,
right.
Whether that is because I'm ina family business, because I had
access to great education, eventhough I grew up in like a one
high school town in the Ozarks,and my kids get the biggest kick
(21:03):
out of it.
They're like what public schooldid you go to?
I'm like the only public schoolthere was kiddos.
Like you know, this was thehigh school, that's it.
You know, I've had a lot ofadvantages.
I had access to great teachersand mentors and job
opportunities and parents who,at different times in my life,
could actually help support thatalong the way, right, I also
(21:26):
lived in New York as a kidworking in the mailroom, but my
parents couldn't help me at alland that was really hard.
But there's a lot of privilegein, I think, many parts of my
story and so I wanna make surewe double click on what you said
about women and people of colorand particularly women of color
not always getting that sameaccess, and it's something we've
(21:49):
taken really seriously at JackCooper, you know, not just on
diversity and equity andinclusion work and really
creating a workplace wherepeople feel seen and heard and
valued and where that'sintentional, it doesn't happen
by accident, but we've done itin a way where now over 30% of
our management team is women atall levels across the company,
(22:13):
but if you look at women andpeople of color and management
as one group, we're at 42%, likein a 100 year old trucking
company.
I can't tell you what a journeythat's been, but it's not a box
checking exercise, as that'shappened.
Our decisions have gottenbetter, our performance has
improved, our customer servicehas gone up, our ability to
(22:38):
attract capital has gone up.
Our ability to think criticallythrough complex problems and
eat the elephant one bite at atime as you solve them has gone
up, and sometimes I worry thatthat doesn't happen more because
the fear of failure, sort ofwhere we started this
conversation, which is if we areheld to a standard, whether
(23:02):
it's because of race or genderor socioeconomic status or, by
the way, immigration statuslet's not leave that out here
either right, there is.
If there's a stigma, then whenyou fail it's like you've met
expectations and everybody feelslike they can move along.
But in reality, there aregroups of people who enjoy
(23:25):
privilege where that isn't thecase, and I think if we don't
flag that, it's gonna be harderto get to parity for women in
the workforce.
It's gonna be harder to haveboardrooms or halls of Congress
and state legislatures that arerepresentative of what the
population in a given place looklike in terms of diversity.
Right, and for me, I think I gotvery lucky because I do
(23:53):
restructuring and turnaroundwork for the most part right.
So we were talking earlierabout this but almost every
opportunity I've had has startedin failure of some sort,
whether it was mine or somebodyelse's right.
You're buying a business out ofbankruptcy, or you're buying a
business that's on the verge ofcollapse, or you're starting
something because somebody elsecouldn't get it done, and that
(24:18):
really gave me, from a veryearly age in my career, the
perception that not only wasfailure not fatal, but that
sometimes failure was the mostfertile ground for opportunity,
right?
This ability that you can feellike you've been buried but
you've been planted, right thatthat was fundamental to how I
(24:38):
thought about my career from thevery beginning and I wish that
we framed that more, I guessprominently for women in
particular, because who cares,like, if you fail?
I had a woman in the middle ofyou know, working on a
potentially really bigacquisition right now and I kept
(25:00):
hearing from our CEO well, wedon't wanna do this or that
because we don't wanna beembarrassed if it doesn't work
out.
And I'm like I don't know whothe we is here, because I
literally don't care if I'membarrassed.
I want a chance to save thesejobs because it's a lot of jobs
at stake.
And it was funny after wetalked through it he was like I
(25:20):
sort of get that now right, likeit's okay if we go out on a
limb and swing or swing the bator whatever analogy you wanna
take.
If you're doing it for theright reasons, even if it
doesn't work out, you can walkaway with your head held real
high and you can walk away withthe knowledge that people you
probably didn't even know werepaying attention, watched that
(25:44):
and will behave differently intheir own lives and take risks
differently in their own careersbecause of it.
Right Like you're slowlypeeling away that stigma where
it had no right to exist in thefirst place 100%, and it's
actually a beautiful segue intoour topic of the month.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's easy to say yes, take risks, do things that
scare you, but for decades, dueto societal norms and biases
that we see in the workplace,despite the performance level
that you talked about I mean, Italk about that consistently
right it is the profitable thingto do all of those things.
I mean, you can see it and dataproves it in terms of outcomes
(26:29):
when you invest in women andinvest in DEI efforts
intentionally, like you said.
But despite all of that, surveyafter survey on HR, both men
and women continue to evaluatemen and women by a completely
(26:50):
different set of criteria.
One, two both men and womencontinue to see women as having
less leadership potential orbeing less competent both men
and women.
As a result, I feel like women.
Then we try to then shoot forperfection, because we feel like
(27:11):
we have to be almost perfect inorder just to have a seat at
the table, and so this thenleads to hypervillagens, and
then it leads to overself-criticism.
And, by the way, this is evendouble for women of color, who
we've been told and internalizedthat we have to be not two
(27:34):
times but three times as goodjust to have a seat at the table
.
So I often tell people, whenthey say, well, women don't take
risk as much as men or at thesame rate as men, I always say,
well, it's not that we don'ttake risks, that we're forced to
take a lot more mitigated risksbecause we're evaluated on a
completely different set ofcriteria and we don't have the
(27:55):
same latitude to fail as some ofour male peers.
It's always good to talk about,like how do we do this?
How do we overcome fear, butalso understanding the biases
that we also have to overcome.
Have you ever experienced beingjudged by a different set of
criteria and how did you dealwith it?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, the way I look at it is that failure isn't a
mark that you're incapable.
It's a mark that you believe inthe extent of your capabilities
, right.
If you go through your entirecareer devoid of failure, I
(28:33):
think you left a lot of gas inthe tank.
I think you could have done alot more for a lot more people.
For me, that would be not onlyunsatisfactory at a deeply
visceral personal level, but itwould mean I didn't live up to
(28:55):
my potential.
The question for me is notreally about whether or not
we're going to fail.
Guys.
We're going to fail.
By the way, I don't know howmany of you all are married.
We're occasionally going tofeel like I'm failing at wifeing
or parenting, and sometimes allat the same time.
Right when I'm like Jesus, Ijust want to hide in a movie
(29:17):
theater and watch something likea rom-com, because it feels
like you're failing equally inall directions.
That's okay.
That's human.
But it also means that you'reliving.
It means you are out there,putting vulnerability up front,
where you can build meaningfulrelationships and have
(29:39):
meaningful impact.
That grace needs to extend toour businesses and our careers
too.
You have to be a responsible,fiduciary right.
I certainly understand that.
But there are many, manyinstances in the business world
where rapid iteration which isanother way to say frequent
(30:01):
failure right has been thefoundation of enormous success.
Probably Ed Katmell's bookCreativity Inc about the rise of
Pixar is one of the bestexamples of this.
If you haven't read it, by theway, it's completely worthwhile.
But a lot of people don'trealize Pixar.
For the first 10 or 15 years itwas in existence, they opened
(30:23):
every single movie at number oneProbably all of them for some
ridiculous stretch of years.
Right In the book he talksabout how they used rapid
iteration to get to that pointwhere they would bring in not
just insiders and people whoworked on those films but peers
(30:45):
in the industry directors,producers, other studios to take
a look and tell them honestlywhat's working and what wasn't,
and that they didn't take thatas like water on a flame, but it
was fuel for the fire, right.
That drove their success.
I think my favorite quote in thewhole book was he says look, at
(31:05):
some point every one of ourmovies sucked.
When you think about all thegreat you know Toy Story and all
this great product that theyput out, that was revolutionary
at the time.
For him to say that should giveall of us like a sigh of relief
and inordinate inspiration foran iterative process that makes
(31:27):
us better.
We do have to take calculatedrisks and we do have to
understand that there's notparity in the workplace by
gender or by race.
Right now, although we'retrying and we're making a lot of
progress, we're just not thereyet.
I would say use iteration, usewhat we learn from failure to
(31:50):
sort of fuel your success.
Don't let it be a brake pedal.
It's got to go that direction.
So I'm not sure that thataddresses the gender and race
gap, erica, as much, but I wouldsay you set your own standards
right.
You're not building your careerfor anyone except yourself and
(32:13):
the people who depend on you toget your job done, and if you're
meeting the standards for thosetwo groups, you're acing the
test.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
You did answer it, I think, in a way that I often
also do.
Whether we're talking aboutfear of failure or the biases
that exist with how we evaluatemen and women, same as imposter
syndrome Just know that some ofit is real, some of it is like
you know, what do we need to doto either overcome that fear of
failure or take risks, and someof it is just situational.
(32:46):
Just be aware that there arebiases that exist and that it's
not always you and that, to yourpoint, focus internally.
What do you want to do?
How are you going to do it andhow are you going to push
yourself forward, to do thethings to spite off and in a way
that doesn't lead to extremeself-criticism?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Well, I'm not saying wrong with naming it too, and
maybe that's my particular wayof fighting back, but I don't
think we do enough to call itout in real time when we see
that different yardstick formeasuring different groups of
people.
When I ran for office in 2018,so I'd never run before and I
(33:25):
live in like a ruby red, Ubergerrymandered area, so like it
was statewide or bust right, andI had no intention of running
for office at that time but in2017, when I made the decision,
it really felt like thebeginning of you know, honestly,
what would become years ofdemocracy, feeling really at
risk in this country to me and,I think, to a lot of people and
(33:49):
so I wanted to do more thanwrite a check to a candidate.
I wanted to put my hat in thering and I'm proud that I did,
but for me it was the, I think,a real wake-up call.
Also, I spent my time in mediaand trucking, so I really
thought you couldn't get moredude dominated than those two
(34:12):
universes and it turns out youcan, and it's called politics
and we should have all knownthat after Hillary Clinton, like
no matter if you voted for ornot, like this was Voldemort and
Hermione right and likeVoldemort, it's awful.
But the way she was treated inthe media was markedly different
(34:33):
.
Right, and we've seen thatacross a number, a number of
people, but it was a realwake-up call for me.
My very first meeting with pressas a candidate was a publisher
I won't say which one, but arelatively large newspaper and
it was a woman.
So I thought, well, this isgreat.
And it wasn't.
(34:54):
I had to drive to meet her likea couple hours round trip while
I was on vacation with my kids.
I threw on like a sundress anda blazer because again, I'm on
vacation with my kids no powersuits packed.
I definitely did not havemakeup on I don't really wear
makeup.
This is like the first timethis I don't know the last
couple months and probably thelast time you'll see it this
(35:15):
month and my hair was like allbeachy and air dried.
And when I showed up we had a40 minute meeting.
Again, you know, driving two anda half hours round trip for
this 40 minute meeting and shespent 25 of the 40 minutes
lecturing me on appropriate hairmakeup and accessories for
(35:36):
female candidates in the Southand it took every fiber of my
being not to explain to her howI thought that was perhaps
unhealthy for her and forsociety and I tried to politely
listen.
I tried to stare it back toissues or resume or anything.
(35:58):
And she really wanted me toknow about pearls.
I got all the damn pearls butlet's be honest, if pearls were
the issue, Jim Jordan would beup there in you know Congress
right now wearing strings ofthem and that's not going to get
it done because he's not theright guy.
And it was really an eye-openerfor me that women do have a
(36:20):
different standard, right, Likethere's no expectation of your
makeup.
You know you wear the same suitevery day on the campaign trail
.
If you're a guy and if you swapshirts out every now and then,
more or less people will likenever notice.
It is so different.
And it really made me stop andthink about all the places we
(36:40):
see that and people don't callit out and to this day I regret
not saying I'm not sure ifyou're aware you're doing this,
but this is pretty inappropriateand also it really furthers a
lot of stereotypes that I findunproductive for myself and
fellow women and for mydaughters, and I would
appreciate it if you coulddivert the conversation to
(37:03):
something of substance and Ididn't, because I was new and
because I didn't want her tohate me and write about what an
idiot I was in her paper.
But to this day I regret it andI think from that point on I've
made a point of, as politely andprofessionally as I can,
pointing it out in real timewhen I see a lens that's being
(37:26):
used that's different by race orgender or background, union,
non-union, and I can't say it'sgarnered me the most friends in
the workplace.
Sometimes, but I can sayoccasionally I noticed people's
light bulbs come on and they'rejust not aware they're doing it
and when you say it and you doit with grace and with kindness,
(37:48):
they actually respond andchange.
We have an infinite ability tochange for the better.
As humans we don't giveourselves that credit a lot of
times, but people more oftenthan not will live up to your
expectations.
So we should set thoseexpectations appropriately.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I love that.
I love that I see that Sophiahas the question.
Sophia, what are you doing, youyourself, and ask it.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
I love everything that you're saying.
It's very impactful andempowering and I'm very much on
that journey right now.
So I wanted to ask you, assomeone that has already gone
through that journey and likeknows her worth, what advice
would you give to someone thatis still going through that and
still learning the differencebetween the pressures of society
(38:40):
and what it means to be a womanin business?
And just like sometimes Irealize I put these pressures on
myself and I don't realize it.
So I was wondering if you hadany advice on how to overcome
that or how you realized thatand who are doing these things.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
So, sophia, thanks for the question Number one.
I have good news and bad news,and the good news is, I think,
the advice is to trust yourinstincts right.
The totality of your experience, from the time you're born till
right now, gives you a lot ofdata.
You're like a supercomputer andif you process that in a way
(39:23):
that lets you build an intuitionand women, I think, are
particularly attuned to thissometimes trust it.
I don't know a lot of peoplewho have ever told me about the
examples of when they hated thatthey had trusted their gut, but
every friend I have can tickoff a number of places where
(39:43):
they didn't and they came toregret it.
So trust who you are and whatyou know about yourself and, I
think, also trust and haveconfidence in what you bring to
the table.
Know your value and know thatother people will see that too,
not because you tell them, butbecause you're showing them in
(40:04):
how you work and what you candeliver.
The bad news is it never stopsright.
I think my mom was a neonatalnurse, loved her job, gave up
her career when my dad got to goto graduate school, which,
again, it was a big deal in ourfamily because he was the first
(40:27):
to go to college.
She then became a mom, stay athome mom, which was her joyful
sort of preferred profession fora number of years, and then now
she's a romance writer.
You know, like could not havehad a more 180 kind of
transition, and she didn't starther first novel until she was
(40:49):
in her 50s and I think she'spublished 13 now.
So you know, it's okay to havethat be a journey of discovery
that doesn't end and to learnwhat it is to be a woman in a
career or a workplace, or to bea working woman or a working
parent, working mother, or to bea woman who has a good career
(41:13):
but also has passions andhobbies and interests that lie
outside of your home, in youroffice.
That's a lifelong journey and Ithink it's healthy.
I am, I'm already excited downthe road to figure out what my
next career will be.
Right Like, I assume there'llbe something else, because up
until this point it's it's beenan interesting turn of events.
(41:35):
But just trust who you are.
You know and and and again.
That doesn't mean thateverybody else will know it from
day one.
But if the standards we'remeeting are our own and
achieving the goals we set forourselves.
That should be enough.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And Michelle on the chat says what are some of your
best tips for change management?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Rapid iteration, embracing what you can learn
from everything that doesn'tbreak your way, and listening
proportionate to the problemyou're solving, versus talking,
which is ironic, I realized,because I'm sitting here talking
a lot, but Anna Torres is onwith me now.
(42:20):
She and I have had anincredible journey with an
organization that we built overthe last few years, where we
interviewed hundreds of peoplearound the country about what
they thought the American dreamwas and whether they felt like
they had access to it, how it'schanged, what that's meant to
them and how we can make it morereal for everyone and more
(42:44):
accessible for everyone.
And the thing that I learnedover the course of like what and
I think we're at like three or400 interviews is shut up and
listen every time you have achance.
And if you're going to take thetime to put people in a meeting
or to set up an interview, takethe time to hear what they have
(43:10):
to say.
I think one of the hardestthings to understand as a female
executive and I do think it isa little bit different for women
than for men.
Sometimes it's hard for me tounderstand when somebody puts
together a big meeting with alot of attendees to work on a
problem or an acquisition or atask force or a financing deal,
(43:31):
and then the conversation isdominated by one or two or three
people Like what the hell doeseverybody else need to be there?
For?
Then, like, presumably they'regood at what they do and they
have something to contribute, oryou would not have included
them, so let them speak andlisten.
That would be probably mybiggest on change management.
(43:51):
A lot of times also, the peopleat the front of the operation,
the front line of your workers.
They know a lot more than someof the office folks do, and
valuing their inputappropriately, I think is really
important.
And then the last thing I'llsay it was not my idea so I'll
give her credit, but Frances Fry, who is an author and professor
(44:13):
.
She and her wife, anne Morris,write these incredible books and
you should buy and read themall and they do a podcast.
It's fabulous, but they workspecifically on change
management.
So Frances was the board memberthat they brought in at Uber,
for example, when Uber had itssort of cultural Armageddon and
she was brought in to help writethe ship and she said something
(44:36):
that has stuck with me eversince and I think about it every
day that judgment and curiositycan't exist in the same space.
So, as long as you're curious,you can work with people you had
no idea you could work with.
You can solve problems thatother people assume are
(44:58):
intractable, but judgment andcuriosity can't exist and I like
this Erica put in.
Neither can perfection andgrowth, amen, yeah, so be
curious.
And if somebody says somethingor behaves in a certain way,
like before we jump down them,you know, with our mama bear
(45:19):
claws like ask questions, likeit's okay to put people on the
spot too and say I'm not sure Iunderstand what you're driving
at here.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about why you would ask
that?
And then just shut up and letthe awkward silence speak for
itself until better words exitthe outboard.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
What would be your biggest takeaways for best
members and for listeners whenit comes to overcoming fear of
failure?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I would say, to embrace everything life has to
offer.
The days that are hard make usreally appreciate the days that
are amazing, and the challengesthat we conquer will give us
some of our proudest moments,and we see that.
(46:11):
But sometimes in the middle ofit, day to day, it's really hard
to stop and take stock of whatthe totality of our experience
is.
But embrace it for what it is.
It's an opportunity to grow andunfortunately, part of the time
, struggle is a part of that.
(46:32):
Sometimes it's unavoidable andI think that that's sort of
classic story that we tell kidswhen they're little.
Right, you can't break thebutterfly out of the chrysalis
because it won't survive.
It needs to fight and kind ofbreak out of that and that's
part of how it learns to spreadits wings and take flight and
that's the same for us.
I mean it may sound a littlebit cheeky but it's 100%
(46:56):
accurate.
You're going to need to buildthose resilience muscles the
same way we build everythingelse, and embracing that can be
really hard, like I againwatched a Cinnit campaign and
then took my company through abankruptcy, and I did it for all
the right reasons and Iwouldn't change a damn thing.
(47:17):
But you have to be comfortablewhen we make decisions that
align with our values, even whenthey don't work out down the
road.
It's going to feelunderstandable why we made those
decisions.
We're going to feel betterabout it.
We're going to have the absenceof regret, that kind of
(47:38):
visceral regret that I thinksometimes, as women, we can kind
of carry with us for a longtime.
And let that be your guide.
I think that's the mostimportant thing, and I would
also say a sense of humor comesin real handy.
I love the Ted Lasso attributionin the chat.
That's surrounding yourselfwith people who see you for all
(48:03):
that you are and not just amoment where it looks like
things didn't break your way.
Blazing a trail is messy.
You're going to have to hack atthe foliage in front of you.
You're going to get somescratches.
You're going to be tired.
You're probably going to besweaty and stinky.
That's okay.
It also means that the peoplebehind you are going to enjoy a
(48:28):
clear trail that takes them toplaces they didn't have access
to before.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
I want to close out with this.
You mentioned the need for asupport system and just having
people around you who is in yoursupport system.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Oh, I think you need both.
You need a support system, butyou also need a challenge
network.
I think is what Adam Grantcalls it.
So the people who don't mindcalling BS from time to time and
don't mind telling you whenyou're out over your skis a bit.
Sometimes that one's even moreuseful For me.
I have my parents.
My grandmother is a realstraight talk in old school,
(49:05):
Didn't grow up with much andreally gives me the perspective
of appreciating everything thatI have, even when in the moment
it feels like it's all kind ofin chaos and my kids right
Understanding what we're workingfor.
For me, I don't want my kids toever encounter the publisher
(49:28):
story Like that stuff's for thebirds, and I don't want the next
generation of women to havethat same challenge.
And I have a few good friendsthat I can say exactly what I
think, and I would put Annaamong them, by the way.
I can tell her I'm sorry Ican't talk today because my kids
are self-destructing and mydeal has gone sideways and I'm
(49:52):
going to be in banker and lawyertown until the end of time.
So I'm sorry, I'm not available.
And she just kind of smiles andsays I hope it works out.
So I think having friends thatyou can sort of put your ugly on
the table and they just kind ofsay, yeah, I got that too, or
(50:13):
oh, I'm so sorry and don't sweatit, that's critical and having
something that's screen free hasbeen a revelation for me too.
So my grandmother is teachingme how to quilt and that is like
the most stereotypical Americanart form in a certain way.
(50:36):
Right In the sense that it'sthis very traditional, but it is
old school.
You cannot cut corners inquilting and if you don't
measure precisely and take yourtime and your seams are not the
quarter-inch that they're meantto be, nothing fits.
And so it really teaches me tobe present and focused and to
(51:00):
delight in the details, evenwhen they're driving units, and
I think I take some of that backinto, like parenting.
I take it back into, you know,being a working woman, but I
definitely take it back into thechaos that is sort of like
turnaround and restructuringmanagement that we do.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the investable barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Almost every opportunity I've had has started
in failure of some sort,whether it was mine or somebody
else's right.
You're buying a business out ofbankruptcy, or you're buying a
business upon the verge ofcollapse, or you're starting
something because somebody elsecouldn't get it done.
That really gave me, from avery early age in my career, the
perception that not only wasfailure not fatal, but that
(01:02):
sometimes failure was the mostfertile ground for opportunity.
Blazing a trail is messy.
I watched the Cinec campaignand then took my company through
a bankruptcy and I did it forall the right reasons and I
wouldn't change a damn thing.
When we make decisions thatalign with our values, even when
they don't work out down theroad, it's going to feel
(01:24):
understandable why we made thosedecisions.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
In this episode, we talk about ways to overcome fear
of failure with Sarah Emiko,executive chairperson of Jack
Cooper's Holdings, northAmerica's largest car-hauling
company and women-ownedenterprise.
We also discuss Sarah's approachto building a company where she
employs thousands ofhardworking union workers in the
midst of the auto worker strike, her approach to managing
(01:50):
setbacks when she was aDemocratic nominee for
Lieutenant Governor in Georgiaand ran alongside Stacey Abrams,
as well as her 2020 Senate raceand the biased women phase when
it comes to risk taking.
This episode is made possiblethanks to our venture arm,
vestor Ventures, a venturecapital firm investing in
(02:10):
women-led companies, buildingtools, products and services
that enable women and workingfamilies to try both at work and
at home, and by our Vestmembership, a community made up
of professional women acrossindustries, regions and career
levels, working together tocreate the future of more
inclusive workspaces.
If you're interested inlearning more about Vestor
(02:33):
Ventures and Vestpeer Network,go to wwwvestherco.
If you enjoy the episode, shareit with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session with
Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'm in the business of building businesses.
So right out of business schoolI went to a startup that was
doing software consulting in NewYork and New Delhi in India and
the revenue had grown frommaybe one or two million dollars
to ten million dollars reallyquickly and the founder, who was
(03:14):
effectively a programmer,recruited some of us from
Harvard Business School to comein and help sort of set up the
infrastructure and managementsystems.
So right out of school it wassort of in out of the frying pan
into the fire.
And my first day of work Istill remember the other two
people he had hired that startedat the same time I did.
(03:34):
Both became engagement managerson the consulting teams.
And then he sort of looked atme and said you'll have to tell
me at the end of the week whatyou're going to do.
And he said I just liked yourbackground and I think you'll
add value and I'm not reallysure that we want to just put
you on client teams.
So tell me what you think youcould do.
And over the next two years Iended up building out their CRM
(03:57):
process, interviewing literallyevery client the company had
ever had to sort of get a senseof where the strengths and
opportunities were and it wasfantastic, but it was building
up the infrastructure of abusiness so that it could scale.
I left because, as much as Iloved working with my boss and
as much as I love theentrepreneurial environment, I
(04:20):
had really no passion forsoftware consulting.
And my husband's an engineerwho runs a data privacy tech
startup, vc backed, and he'slike I literally don't
understand how you were ever insoftware anything, because I am
the liberal arts person in thefamily.
I've been good at math for along time, but I don't have
multiple masters in engineeringlike he does, and so I went from
(04:44):
there and I think I thoughtthis was a wonderful first
experience.
But I need to do something Ifeel more passionately about,
and I ended up spending the nexteight years really almost a
decade in media and starting inthe William Morris agency
mailroom, so literally pushing amail card.
And you have to remember atthis point I'm like a few years
(05:05):
out of Harvard business schooland I'm pushing and delivering
mail on at the bottom of thetotem pole with kids that like
haven't graduated college yet,who are the assistants, right?
So be careful, I think, is themoral of the story.
When you pray for humility.
Sometimes you will get it andbut I loved the experience.
I loved the comradery thatformed as we were all starting
(05:28):
out as equals and sort of makingour way up in this industry and
again in the agency world.
I was very fortunate because Imoved up really quickly and a
few years later I was adepartment head already working
with corporate clients In theagency.
You're always building abusiness right, because you have
(05:48):
to come in and build your ownclient list.
You have to generate revenues.
I can tell you there is verylittle sympathy when you're
unable to perform in thatrespect.
And then when I finally gotpromoted, it was partially due
to the Mailroom Fund.
They were raising the seedcapital media fund with Ben Rock
and Excel and AT&T and theyrealized they had a Harvard MBA
(06:12):
sitting and answering somebody'sphones in the corporate
consulting department and theywere like you can come and be
the day to day person on thefund.
So you know, it again wasstartup world.
And then when I went andimmediately, like within a year
of that, was poached to go andstart a rival agency's
department.
It was starting the departmentfrom scratch.
(06:35):
And then a funny thing happenedmy husband's from Italy and so
we were very far away in LosAngeles from my family, which
was all in Georgia at that time.
I grew up in the Midwest but myfamily's all sort of migrated
down to Georgia and his familyis still in Italy, so we were
just very far.
We had our first daughter and Icame home on maternity leave
(06:59):
right before I was going to goback to work and I don't know if
it was the hormones or thefamily or an elegant cocktail of
both, but we bought a house inGeorgia and that was very hard
to explain going back to workand I loved my boss at APA,
where I was their departmenthead for brand integration and
marketing.
(07:19):
I loved him.
Still, talk to him to stay,still consider him a mentor.
And we went out to lunch and Isaid I bought a house and he
said, oh, that's great, honey,where did you buy a house?
And I'm like good, georgia,sorry, you know.
Like you know and, to hiscredit, like he was like okay,
how do we keep you?
And so I worked remotely, youknow, from from Georgia for the
(07:41):
next couple of years.
Eventually I joined the board.
I had been an owner as a familymember in a logistics business
and joined the board in 2011.
So I had two jobs on two coastswith two kids under three.
That was fun.
I didn't sleep a lot.
But over the next few years itbecame really obvious that there
(08:04):
were opportunities to grow ourfamily business in the logistics
space through mergers andacquisitions and
recapitalization.
So my dad's been a turnaroundCEO for the better part of four
decades.
We sort of find all of thesebusinesses that are either on
the verge of collapse or maybeare in bankruptcy or maybe need
(08:26):
to be restructured, thateverybody else has given up on.
And I guess we're a sucker forthe long shot because we like to
go in and try to fix them, butto do it in a way that puts
valuing people and the dignityof work and workers and labor
rights first and that alwaysthrows people off because
they're not used to seeing thatin the restructuring world.
(08:47):
And eventually I came on boardfull time and within a year our
CEO had resigned unexpectedly,retired early, and the board
voted to put me in as theexecutive chairman.
And it was like mid 30s and, youknow, had two little kids and
(09:11):
all of a sudden was theexecutive chairman of a $600
million company and it was anincredible opportunity, but it
was coming in at a moment wherewe had had a very large
acquisition that didn't go wellon the integration the debt was
picking, was pickable, so it wasballooning very quickly and
(09:36):
where we had reached a size andscale in our market where our
customers felt like eliminatingrisk in their supply chain meant
that they had to downsize theamount of business that they had
.
And so, as much as it was anincredible opportunity, it was
also walking into the eye of thestorm.
You know, my first week aschairman was the one of my first
(09:59):
weeks as chairman was the Ebolacrisis in West Africa and we
had trade lanes and an NBOCCbusiness heading into West
Africa and I'm literally tryingto get our team out of Legos on
like the last flight that'sgoing to leave.
And that was the easiest thingI did that year, probably.
(10:22):
So it was baptism by fire, butif you look at where we've come,
the business that we startedwith was like $28 million and
maybe 100 employees in 2008.
So my dad bought the firstbusiness in the middle of the
Great Recession and then, as afamily, about a year later, in
(10:42):
2009, we bought Jack Cooper,which was 10 times our size and
on the brink of collapse.
After almost 90 years inexistence.
And right about the time wewere all high fiving each other
for helping save jobs, gm andChrysler, who were our two
biggest customers at the time,filed for bankruptcy and we
(11:06):
found ourselves on the frontline of the auto bailout and the
Great Recession kicking andscrapping just to make payroll
sometimes.
And from there we're now atlike 26, 2700 employees.
I think that's actually lightbecause the supply chain
(11:27):
disruption is still prettysevere in auto and of course now
we have a strike.
So I'm sure you're all awarebut and we're tracking at about
680 million in revenue.
So from that like veryrelatively small initial
business, we've come a long wayand and that's amazing and it's
(11:48):
a pleasure to be a part of it.
But again, the theme Erica waskind of growing businesses and I
don't think the growth per seis what I'm most proud of.
It's amazing.
But I think the thing that I'mproud of is that our drivers,
our union, our pension they willtake my call.
I know them, I know theirleadership.
(12:10):
I think there's mutual respect.
I'm proud that we've given ourpeople fully funded catalog
health care, whether they'reunion or not, and that we pay
100 percent of the premiums, notjust for our employees but for
their families too.
I'm proud that when we wentthrough our own really painful
restructuring in a Chapter 11bankruptcy in 2019, so not that
(12:35):
long ago Nobody lost their job,nobody lost their health care,
no union members lost theirseniority or their union
retirement or their pension, andthe something had to give and
our family sort of decided thatthat would be us.
We forfeited our equity torestructure the business and and
(12:58):
, as a result, everybody kepttheir jobs and their health care
, and that was really hard to do.
I launched a Senate campaign inthe middle of that that 10 out
of 10 do not recommend.
Very hard to translate that kindof nuance into the political
universe, but I wanted people toknow what it looks like for
working families and forbusinesses that try to do the
(13:19):
right thing by their employees,how hard it is to compete and
how much the market penalizes ussometimes for that.
And so you know I don't regretit for a minute, and in the end,
we were able to buy thebusiness back.
Later, of course, as we boughtit back, the pandemic took off,
(13:40):
so we have interesting timing onall fronts.
But on the other side of that,I think the business is stronger
, leaner, more efficient, and Ifeel a sense of purpose that
really exceeds anything I'veever felt about making sure
there is some example out therefor people to point to where the
good guys can still win andwhere the business owners don't
(14:03):
have to be the bad guys in thenarrative where you can do the
right thing and still do welland still generate a return for
your investors.
Sorry for the long answer, Erica.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Don't apologize.
I think you should be going toevery university to talk to,
especially our youngergenerations that are coming in,
because I think you're theperfect representation of like
listen, we get a.
Capitalism has been broken andit has been providing the same
access to opportunities toeveryone, but there is hope and
there are leaders like Sarahbuilding great companies with
(14:38):
employees at mind, so I lovethat and thank you for sharing.
You lead one of the largest carhauling enterprises in North
America, not just the US.
You employ thousands ofhardworking union workers.
In light of the strike and thelabor disputes in the industry,
how do you see the role ofbuilding collaborative
(15:00):
relationships to address thechallenges by both the company
and the workers and like how you, you know, optimize profit
still while providing all ofthose benefits?
What strategies have you usedand how do you continue to find
common ground?
What can you share?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, I mean, look, my view is this is the process,
right?
It's unfortunate that sometimesthat process leads to a work
stoppage or a strike, but it isthe process.
This is the collectivebargaining that ultimately
protects everyone in theecosystem, right?
I'm not sure that my firstpriority is always optimizing
(15:41):
profit for just shareholdervalue.
I think sometimes it'soptimizing profit and prosperity
for the stakeholders, andthat's a very different thing.
Right, that includes yourcustomers, it includes your
workers, it includes, of course,your investors, right, but it
also includes the communitieswhere we live and work.
We try to have a real, physicaland visible presence in the
(16:03):
dozens of places across thecontinent where we have work
locations.
So it's painful.
As somebody who loves the autoindustry, my granddad was a
custodial worker on a assemblyplant line in St Louis for
General Motors.
My dad went to college on ascholarship from General Motors,
where he would work six weeksin a factory and then go to
(16:27):
college for six weeks.
So every six weeks he wasmoving back and forth from
Michigan to St Louis, flint toSt Louis, and that's how we paid
for college.
And it was really the onlychance unless you had an
athletic scholarship for someoneto go to college that had no
(16:48):
family support really.
And so it's painful.
I love the products that wemove, I love our customers and
what they mean, not just to theeconomy and to the jobs they
create, but to what it saysabout American ingenuity and our
ability to build great thingsthat transform lives.
And at the same time, there hasto be a resolution that is good
(17:16):
for all sides, and that'sreally hard.
And look, we live in a worldright now where this is hard on
a lot of fronts.
We have a Congress that can'tpick a speaker.
Right now, we have two warswhere we can't seem to get a lot
of consensus on acceptableoutcomes for both sides.
(17:41):
So does it surprise me thatwe're seeing this moment where,
across the labor landscapewhether that's Hollywood right,
my old stomping grounds, orwhether it's the auto workers or
nurses who walked out at KaiserPermanente no, it doesn't
surprise me at all.
This is a moment of reckoningabout what capitalism looks like
(18:04):
today and how we make it workfor everyone, because it can.
It's a total myth that youcan't do good and do well.
It's a total myth thatmanagement and labor have to be
on separate sides and atloggerheads.
And it's a total myth that theprosperity we create for our
investors can't be shared acrossthe people that make the
(18:27):
business possible.
And I think if I were going tothose colleges, erica, what I
would say is it's not reallyabout me or the Jack Cooper
story, although I'm very proudto be a part of it.
Every single one of those kidssitting in a freshman seminar
this year can do that, all ofthem.
(18:48):
You know, the inequity existsbecause we permit it to exist,
because we don't ask for anddemand better, and that doesn't
mean that you can't produce areturn.
I'm in a capital intensivebusiness, right Like I have
these massive trucks and they'relike $250 to $300,000 apiece
(19:09):
that we have to invest and theyonly last for a certain number
of years and we have thousandsof them.
So we have to generate a return.
We're in a capital intensivebusiness where we have to go out
and raise money in the markets,particularly in debt capital
markets.
But we have to accept the factthat when we have these seasons
of sort of prosperity, there's alot at stake in letting
(19:33):
everybody participate.
That and it doesn't takeanything away from the investors
.
It doesn't take anything awayfrom the management teams.
I think it shows that we're allrowing in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
One of the reasons why we started StitchGrew, our
nonprofit arm for supportingentrepreneurs, and our slogan is
literally building a moreinclusive economy through
entrepreneurship, is because we100% agree with you.
If we work with entrepreneursyou know, obviously I'm biased,
but particularly women andpeople of color who have been
divested for decades I trulybelieve that if we get in early
(20:09):
and we start talking aboutbuilding equitable systems and
equitable companies, I dobelieve that we can demand and
expect better and do betterourselves.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I was just gonna say I think your point.
I just wanna click on thisbecause obviously you know, as a
family business, even thoughour family didn't come from any
money, right, I still remembermy dad losing his job when I was
11, and that being one of mymost formative memories and
actually a colleague of mine whostill works with us to this day
bought our groceries that weekand I didn't learn that until I
(20:42):
was, you know, an adult.
So I understand that piece.
But I also understand I sit ata point of a lot of privilege,
right.
Whether that is because I'm ina family business, because I had
access to great education, eventhough I grew up in like a one
high school town in the Ozarks,and my kids get the biggest kick
(21:03):
out of it.
They're like what public schooldid you go to?
I'm like the only public schoolthere was kiddos.
Like you know, this was thehigh school, that's it.
You know, I've had a lot ofadvantages.
I had access to great teachersand mentors and job
opportunities and parents who,at different times in my life,
could actually help support thatalong the way, right, I also
(21:26):
lived in New York as a kidworking in the mailroom, but my
parents couldn't help me at alland that was really hard.
But there's a lot of privilegein, I think, many parts of my
story and so I wanna make surewe double click on what you said
about women and people of colorand particularly women of color
not always getting that sameaccess, and it's something we've
(21:49):
taken really seriously at JackCooper, you know, not just on
diversity and equity andinclusion work and really
creating a workplace wherepeople feel seen and heard and
valued and where that'sintentional, it doesn't happen
by accident, but we've done itin a way where now over 30% of
our management team is women atall levels across the company,
(22:13):
but if you look at women andpeople of color and management
as one group, we're at 42%, likein a 100 year old trucking
company.
I can't tell you what a journeythat's been, but it's not a box
checking exercise, as that'shappened.
Our decisions have gottenbetter, our performance has
improved, our customer servicehas gone up, our ability to
(22:38):
attract capital has gone up.
Our ability to think criticallythrough complex problems and
eat the elephant one bite at atime as you solve them has gone
up, and sometimes I worry thatthat doesn't happen more because
the fear of failure, sort ofwhere we started this
conversation, which is if we areheld to a standard, whether
(23:02):
it's because of race or genderor socioeconomic status or, by
the way, immigration statuslet's not leave that out here
either right, there is.
If there's a stigma, then whenyou fail it's like you've met
expectations and everybody feelslike they can move along.
But in reality, there aregroups of people who enjoy
(23:25):
privilege where that isn't thecase, and I think if we don't
flag that, it's gonna be harderto get to parity for women in
the workforce.
It's gonna be harder to haveboardrooms or halls of Congress
and state legislatures that arerepresentative of what the
population in a given place looklike in terms of diversity.
Right, and for me, I think I gotvery lucky because I do
(23:53):
restructuring and turnaroundwork for the most part right.
So we were talking earlierabout this but almost every
opportunity I've had has startedin failure of some sort,
whether it was mine or somebodyelse's right.
You're buying a business out ofbankruptcy, or you're buying a
business that's on the verge ofcollapse, or you're starting
something because somebody elsecouldn't get it done, and that
(24:18):
really gave me, from a veryearly age in my career, the
perception that not only wasfailure not fatal, but that
sometimes failure was the mostfertile ground for opportunity,
right?
This ability that you can feellike you've been buried but
you've been planted, right thatthat was fundamental to how I
(24:38):
thought about my career from thevery beginning and I wish that
we framed that more, I guessprominently for women in
particular, because who cares,like, if you fail?
I had a woman in the middle ofyou know, working on a
potentially really bigacquisition right now and I kept
(25:00):
hearing from our CEO well, wedon't wanna do this or that
because we don't wanna beembarrassed if it doesn't work
out.
And I'm like I don't know whothe we is here, because I
literally don't care if I'membarrassed.
I want a chance to save thesejobs because it's a lot of jobs
at stake.
And it was funny after wetalked through it he was like I
(25:20):
sort of get that now right, likeit's okay if we go out on a
limb and swing or swing the bator whatever analogy you wanna
take.
If you're doing it for theright reasons, even if it
doesn't work out, you can walkaway with your head held real
high and you can walk away withthe knowledge that people you
probably didn't even know werepaying attention, watched that
(25:44):
and will behave differently intheir own lives and take risks
differently in their own careersbecause of it.
Right Like you're slowlypeeling away that stigma where
it had no right to exist in thefirst place 100%, and it's
actually a beautiful segue intoour topic of the month.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's easy to say yes, take risks, do things that
scare you, but for decades, dueto societal norms and biases
that we see in the workplace,despite the performance level
that you talked about I mean, Italk about that consistently
right it is the profitable thingto do all of those things.
I mean, you can see it and dataproves it in terms of outcomes
(26:29):
when you invest in women andinvest in DEI efforts
intentionally, like you said.
But despite all of that, surveyafter survey on HR, both men
and women continue to evaluatemen and women by a completely
(26:50):
different set of criteria.
One, two both men and womencontinue to see women as having
less leadership potential orbeing less competent both men
and women.
As a result, I feel like women.
Then we try to then shoot forperfection, because we feel like
(27:11):
we have to be almost perfect inorder just to have a seat at
the table, and so this thenleads to hypervillagens, and
then it leads to overself-criticism.
And, by the way, this is evendouble for women of color, who
we've been told and internalizedthat we have to be not two
(27:34):
times but three times as goodjust to have a seat at the table
.
So I often tell people, whenthey say, well, women don't take
risk as much as men or at thesame rate as men, I always say,
well, it's not that we don'ttake risks, that we're forced to
take a lot more mitigated risksbecause we're evaluated on a
completely different set ofcriteria and we don't have the
(27:55):
same latitude to fail as some ofour male peers.
It's always good to talk about,like how do we do this?
How do we overcome fear, butalso understanding the biases
that we also have to overcome.
Have you ever experienced beingjudged by a different set of
criteria and how did you dealwith it?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, the way I look at it is that failure isn't a
mark that you're incapable.
It's a mark that you believe inthe extent of your capabilities
, right.
If you go through your entirecareer devoid of failure, I
(28:33):
think you left a lot of gas inthe tank.
I think you could have done alot more for a lot more people.
For me, that would be not onlyunsatisfactory at a deeply
visceral personal level, but itwould mean I didn't live up to
(28:55):
my potential.
The question for me is notreally about whether or not
we're going to fail.
Guys.
We're going to fail.
By the way, I don't know howmany of you all are married.
We're occasionally going tofeel like I'm failing at wifeing
or parenting, and sometimes allat the same time.
Right when I'm like Jesus, Ijust want to hide in a movie
(29:17):
theater and watch something likea rom-com, because it feels
like you're failing equally inall directions.
That's okay.
That's human.
But it also means that you'reliving.
It means you are out there,putting vulnerability up front,
where you can build meaningfulrelationships and have
(29:39):
meaningful impact.
That grace needs to extend toour businesses and our careers
too.
You have to be a responsible,fiduciary right.
I certainly understand that.
But there are many, manyinstances in the business world
where rapid iteration which isanother way to say frequent
(30:01):
failure right has been thefoundation of enormous success.
Probably Ed Katmell's bookCreativity Inc about the rise of
Pixar is one of the bestexamples of this.
If you haven't read it, by theway, it's completely worthwhile.
But a lot of people don'trealize Pixar.
For the first 10 or 15 years itwas in existence, they opened
(30:23):
every single movie at number oneProbably all of them for some
ridiculous stretch of years.
Right In the book he talksabout how they used rapid
iteration to get to that pointwhere they would bring in not
just insiders and people whoworked on those films but peers
(30:45):
in the industry directors,producers, other studios to take
a look and tell them honestlywhat's working and what wasn't,
and that they didn't take thatas like water on a flame, but it
was fuel for the fire, right.
That drove their success.
I think my favorite quote in thewhole book was he says look, at
(31:05):
some point every one of ourmovies sucked.
When you think about all thegreat you know Toy Story and all
this great product that theyput out, that was revolutionary
at the time.
For him to say that should giveall of us like a sigh of relief
and inordinate inspiration foran iterative process that makes
(31:27):
us better.
We do have to take calculatedrisks and we do have to
understand that there's notparity in the workplace by
gender or by race.
Right now, although we'retrying and we're making a lot of
progress, we're just not thereyet.
I would say use iteration, usewhat we learn from failure to
(31:50):
sort of fuel your success.
Don't let it be a brake pedal.
It's got to go that direction.
So I'm not sure that thataddresses the gender and race
gap, erica, as much, but I wouldsay you set your own standards
right.
You're not building your careerfor anyone except yourself and
(32:13):
the people who depend on you toget your job done, and if you're
meeting the standards for thosetwo groups, you're acing the
test.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
You did answer it, I think, in a way that I often
also do.
Whether we're talking aboutfear of failure or the biases
that exist with how we evaluatemen and women, same as imposter
syndrome Just know that some ofit is real, some of it is like
you know, what do we need to doto either overcome that fear of
failure or take risks, and someof it is just situational.
(32:46):
Just be aware that there arebiases that exist and that it's
not always you and that, to yourpoint, focus internally.
What do you want to do?
How are you going to do it andhow are you going to push
yourself forward, to do thethings to spite off and in a way
that doesn't lead to extremeself-criticism?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Well, I'm not saying wrong with naming it too, and
maybe that's my particular wayof fighting back, but I don't
think we do enough to call itout in real time when we see
that different yardstick formeasuring different groups of
people.
When I ran for office in 2018,so I'd never run before and I
(33:25):
live in like a ruby red, Ubergerrymandered area, so like it
was statewide or bust right, andI had no intention of running
for office at that time but in2017, when I made the decision,
it really felt like thebeginning of you know, honestly,
what would become years ofdemocracy, feeling really at
risk in this country to me and,I think, to a lot of people and
(33:49):
so I wanted to do more thanwrite a check to a candidate.
I wanted to put my hat in thering and I'm proud that I did,
but for me it was the, I think,a real wake-up call.
Also, I spent my time in mediaand trucking, so I really
thought you couldn't get moredude dominated than those two
(34:12):
universes and it turns out youcan, and it's called politics
and we should have all knownthat after Hillary Clinton, like
no matter if you voted for ornot, like this was Voldemort and
Hermione right and likeVoldemort, it's awful.
But the way she was treated inthe media was markedly different
(34:33):
.
Right, and we've seen thatacross a number, a number of
people, but it was a realwake-up call for me.
My very first meeting with pressas a candidate was a publisher
I won't say which one, but arelatively large newspaper and
it was a woman.
So I thought, well, this isgreat.
And it wasn't.
(34:54):
I had to drive to meet her likea couple hours round trip while
I was on vacation with my kids.
I threw on like a sundress anda blazer because again, I'm on
vacation with my kids no powersuits packed.
I definitely did not havemakeup on I don't really wear
makeup.
This is like the first timethis I don't know the last
couple months and probably thelast time you'll see it this
(35:15):
month and my hair was like allbeachy and air dried.
And when I showed up we had a40 minute meeting.
Again, you know, driving two anda half hours round trip for
this 40 minute meeting and shespent 25 of the 40 minutes
lecturing me on appropriate hairmakeup and accessories for
(35:36):
female candidates in the Southand it took every fiber of my
being not to explain to her howI thought that was perhaps
unhealthy for her and forsociety and I tried to politely
listen.
I tried to stare it back toissues or resume or anything.
(35:58):
And she really wanted me toknow about pearls.
I got all the damn pearls butlet's be honest, if pearls were
the issue, Jim Jordan would beup there in you know Congress
right now wearing strings ofthem and that's not going to get
it done because he's not theright guy.
And it was really an eye-openerfor me that women do have a
(36:20):
different standard, right, Likethere's no expectation of your
makeup.
You know you wear the same suitevery day on the campaign trail
.
If you're a guy and if you swapshirts out every now and then,
more or less people will likenever notice.
It is so different.
And it really made me stop andthink about all the places we
(36:40):
see that and people don't callit out and to this day I regret
not saying I'm not sure ifyou're aware you're doing this,
but this is pretty inappropriateand also it really furthers a
lot of stereotypes that I findunproductive for myself and
fellow women and for mydaughters, and I would
appreciate it if you coulddivert the conversation to
(37:03):
something of substance and Ididn't, because I was new and
because I didn't want her tohate me and write about what an
idiot I was in her paper.
But to this day I regret it andI think from that point on I've
made a point of, as politely andprofessionally as I can,
pointing it out in real timewhen I see a lens that's being
(37:26):
used that's different by race orgender or background, union,
non-union, and I can't say it'sgarnered me the most friends in
the workplace.
Sometimes, but I can sayoccasionally I noticed people's
light bulbs come on and they'rejust not aware they're doing it
and when you say it and you doit with grace and with kindness,
(37:48):
they actually respond andchange.
We have an infinite ability tochange for the better.
As humans we don't giveourselves that credit a lot of
times, but people more oftenthan not will live up to your
expectations.
So we should set thoseexpectations appropriately.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I love that.
I love that I see that Sophiahas the question.
Sophia, what are you doing, youyourself, and ask it.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
I love everything that you're saying.
It's very impactful andempowering and I'm very much on
that journey right now.
So I wanted to ask you, assomeone that has already gone
through that journey and likeknows her worth, what advice
would you give to someone thatis still going through that and
still learning the differencebetween the pressures of society
(38:40):
and what it means to be a womanin business?
And just like sometimes Irealize I put these pressures on
myself and I don't realize it.
So I was wondering if you hadany advice on how to overcome
that or how you realized thatand who are doing these things.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
So, sophia, thanks for the question Number one.
I have good news and bad news,and the good news is, I think,
the advice is to trust yourinstincts right.
The totality of your experience, from the time you're born till
right now, gives you a lot ofdata.
You're like a supercomputer andif you process that in a way
(39:23):
that lets you build an intuitionand women, I think, are
particularly attuned to thissometimes trust it.
I don't know a lot of peoplewho have ever told me about the
examples of when they hated thatthey had trusted their gut, but
every friend I have can tickoff a number of places where
(39:43):
they didn't and they came toregret it.
So trust who you are and whatyou know about yourself and, I
think, also trust and haveconfidence in what you bring to
the table.
Know your value and know thatother people will see that too,
not because you tell them, butbecause you're showing them in
(40:04):
how you work and what you candeliver.
The bad news is it never stopsright.
I think my mom was a neonatalnurse, loved her job, gave up
her career when my dad got to goto graduate school, which,
again, it was a big deal in ourfamily because he was the first
(40:27):
to go to college.
She then became a mom, stay athome mom, which was her joyful
sort of preferred profession fora number of years, and then now
she's a romance writer.
You know, like could not havehad a more 180 kind of
transition, and she didn't starther first novel until she was
(40:49):
in her 50s and I think she'spublished 13 now.
So you know, it's okay to havethat be a journey of discovery
that doesn't end and to learnwhat it is to be a woman in a
career or a workplace, or to bea working woman or a working
parent, working mother, or to bea woman who has a good career
(41:13):
but also has passions andhobbies and interests that lie
outside of your home, in youroffice.
That's a lifelong journey and Ithink it's healthy.
I am, I'm already excited downthe road to figure out what my
next career will be.
Right Like, I assume there'llbe something else, because up
until this point it's it's beenan interesting turn of events.
(41:35):
But just trust who you are.
You know and and and again.
That doesn't mean thateverybody else will know it from
day one.
But if the standards we'remeeting are our own and
achieving the goals we set forourselves.
That should be enough.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And Michelle on the chat says what are some of your
best tips for change management?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Rapid iteration, embracing what you can learn
from everything that doesn'tbreak your way, and listening
proportionate to the problemyou're solving, versus talking,
which is ironic, I realized,because I'm sitting here talking
a lot, but Anna Torres is onwith me now.
(42:20):
She and I have had anincredible journey with an
organization that we built overthe last few years, where we
interviewed hundreds of peoplearound the country about what
they thought the American dreamwas and whether they felt like
they had access to it, how it'schanged, what that's meant to
them and how we can make it morereal for everyone and more
(42:44):
accessible for everyone.
And the thing that I learnedover the course of like what and
I think we're at like three or400 interviews is shut up and
listen every time you have achance.
And if you're going to take thetime to put people in a meeting
or to set up an interview, takethe time to hear what they have
(43:10):
to say.
I think one of the hardestthings to understand as a female
executive and I do think it isa little bit different for women
than for men.
Sometimes it's hard for me tounderstand when somebody puts
together a big meeting with alot of attendees to work on a
problem or an acquisition or atask force or a financing deal,
(43:31):
and then the conversation isdominated by one or two or three
people Like what the hell doeseverybody else need to be there?
For?
Then, like, presumably they'regood at what they do and they
have something to contribute, oryou would not have included
them, so let them speak andlisten.
That would be probably mybiggest on change management.
(43:51):
A lot of times also, the peopleat the front of the operation,
the front line of your workers.
They know a lot more than someof the office folks do, and
valuing their inputappropriately, I think is really
important.
And then the last thing I'llsay it was not my idea so I'll
give her credit, but Frances Fry, who is an author and professor
(44:13):
.
She and her wife, anne Morris,write these incredible books and
you should buy and read themall and they do a podcast.
It's fabulous, but they workspecifically on change
management.
So Frances was the board memberthat they brought in at Uber,
for example, when Uber had itssort of cultural Armageddon and
she was brought in to help writethe ship and she said something
(44:36):
that has stuck with me eversince and I think about it every
day that judgment and curiositycan't exist in the same space.
So, as long as you're curious,you can work with people you had
no idea you could work with.
You can solve problems thatother people assume are
(44:58):
intractable, but judgment andcuriosity can't exist and I like
this Erica put in.
Neither can perfection andgrowth, amen, yeah, so be
curious.
And if somebody says somethingor behaves in a certain way,
like before we jump down them,you know, with our mama bear
(45:19):
claws like ask questions, likeit's okay to put people on the
spot too and say I'm not sure Iunderstand what you're driving
at here.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about why you would ask
that?
And then just shut up and letthe awkward silence speak for
itself until better words exitthe outboard.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
What would be your biggest takeaways for best
members and for listeners whenit comes to overcoming fear of
failure?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I would say, to embrace everything life has to
offer.
The days that are hard make usreally appreciate the days that
are amazing, and the challengesthat we conquer will give us
some of our proudest moments,and we see that.
(46:11):
But sometimes in the middle ofit, day to day, it's really hard
to stop and take stock of whatthe totality of our experience
is.
But embrace it for what it is.
It's an opportunity to grow andunfortunately, part of the time
, struggle is a part of that.
(46:32):
Sometimes it's unavoidable andI think that that's sort of
classic story that we tell kidswhen they're little.
Right, you can't break thebutterfly out of the chrysalis
because it won't survive.
It needs to fight and kind ofbreak out of that and that's
part of how it learns to spreadits wings and take flight and
that's the same for us.
I mean it may sound a littlebit cheeky but it's 100%
(46:56):
accurate.
You're going to need to buildthose resilience muscles the
same way we build everythingelse, and embracing that can be
really hard, like I againwatched a Cinnit campaign and
then took my company through abankruptcy, and I did it for all
the right reasons and Iwouldn't change a damn thing.
(47:17):
But you have to be comfortablewhen we make decisions that
align with our values, even whenthey don't work out down the
road.
It's going to feelunderstandable why we made those
decisions.
We're going to feel betterabout it.
We're going to have the absenceof regret, that kind of
(47:38):
visceral regret that I thinksometimes, as women, we can kind
of carry with us for a longtime.
And let that be your guide.
I think that's the mostimportant thing, and I would
also say a sense of humor comesin real handy.
I love the Ted Lasso attributionin the chat.
That's surrounding yourselfwith people who see you for all
(48:03):
that you are and not just amoment where it looks like
things didn't break your way.
Blazing a trail is messy.
You're going to have to hack atthe foliage in front of you.
You're going to get somescratches.
You're going to be tired.
You're probably going to besweaty and stinky.
That's okay.
It also means that the peoplebehind you are going to enjoy a
(48:28):
clear trail that takes them toplaces they didn't have access
to before.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
I want to close out with this.
You mentioned the need for asupport system and just having
people around you who is in yoursupport system.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Oh, I think you need both.
You need a support system, butyou also need a challenge
network.
I think is what Adam Grantcalls it.
So the people who don't mindcalling BS from time to time and
don't mind telling you whenyou're out over your skis a bit.
Sometimes that one's even moreuseful For me.
I have my parents.
My grandmother is a realstraight talk in old school,
(49:05):
Didn't grow up with much andreally gives me the perspective
of appreciating everything thatI have, even when in the moment
it feels like it's all kind ofin chaos and my kids right
Understanding what we're workingfor.
For me, I don't want my kids toever encounter the publisher
(49:28):
story Like that stuff's for thebirds, and I don't want the next
generation of women to havethat same challenge.
And I have a few good friendsthat I can say exactly what I
think, and I would put Annaamong them, by the way.
I can tell her I'm sorry Ican't talk today because my kids
are self-destructing and mydeal has gone sideways and I'm
(49:52):
going to be in banker and lawyertown until the end of time.
So I'm sorry, I'm not available.
And she just kind of smiles andsays I hope it works out.
So I think having friends thatyou can sort of put your ugly on
the table and they just kind ofsay, yeah, I got that too, or
(50:13):
oh, I'm so sorry and don't sweatit, that's critical and having
something that's screen free hasbeen a revelation for me too.
So my grandmother is teachingme how to quilt and that is like
the most stereotypical Americanart form in a certain way.
(50:36):
Right In the sense that it'sthis very traditional, but it is
old school.
You cannot cut corners inquilting and if you don't
measure precisely and take yourtime and your seams are not the
quarter-inch that they're meantto be, nothing fits.
And so it really teaches me tobe present and focused and to
(51:00):
delight in the details, evenwhen they're driving units, and
I think I take some of that backinto, like parenting.
I take it back into, you know,being a working woman, but I
definitely take it back into thechaos that is sort of like
turnaround and restructuringmanagement that we do.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
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