Redefining Gender Roles: Lead Dads and Equitable Parenting

In this episode VEST Member Claudia Naím-Burt co-founder and COO of Keep Company, a group learning platform helping employers care for the caregivers on their teams, talks to Paul Sullivan, former New York Times financial columnist and founder The Company of Dads, a platform supporting “Lead Dads”—men who are the “go-to” parents whether they work full-time, part-time, or are devoting all their time to their families.

Join us as we talk about how we as a society and company leaders should embrace lead dads and how together we can counteract unhelpful gender norms both at work and at home.

About our Guests

Paul Sullivan is the founder of The Company of Dads, the first platform dedicated to creating a community for Lead Dads. Its mission is to help Lead Dads feel less isolated and more confident that they have made the correct choice to take on the bulk of the parenting and family duties - or at the very least not embrace stereotypes around who does what at home. As a Lead Dad himself, Paul understands intimately the joys, frustrations, isolation and reticence around talking about being a Lead Dad. It’s a role that is growing in numbers but is far from normalized. Before starting The Company of Dads in 2021, Paul wrote the Wealth Matters column in The New York Times for 13 years. He also created the Money Game column in GOLF Magazine. As a journalist for 25 years, his articles also appeared in Fortune, Money, Conde Nast Portfolio, The International Herald Tribune, Barron’s, The Boston Globe, and Food & Wine. From 2000 to 2006, he was a reporter, editor and columnist at the Financial Times. He is the author of two books Clutch: Why Some People Excel Under Pressure and Others Don’t and The Thin Green Line: The Money Secrets of The Super Wealthy. Paul lives in Connecticut, with his wife and their three daughters and three dogs. Connect with Paul on LinkedIn.

Claudia Naím-Burt is the co-founder and COO of Keep Company, a group learning platform that helps employers care for, and keep, the parents and caregivers on their teams. Previously, Claudia was a member of the leadership team at Framebridge, a direct-to-consumer custom framing company, where she led Brand and Communications. As the 10th employee to join the company, she helped scale the business to over 400 employees, retail locations and past $82M in venture funding. After Framebridge, Claudia served as an entrepreneur in residence at NEA, and as a strategic advisor to several high-growth businesses, including Poppy Flowers. Claudia has held marketing and communications roles at American Express and Edelman Public Relations. She holds an MBA from NYU Stern School of Business and a BA with honors from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. Originally from Caracas, Venezuela, Claudia lives in Washington D.C. with her husband and two boys. Connect with Claudia on Lin

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor Podcast, where we

(00:23):
explore the invisible barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
And I became that go-to parent.
Now did I tell anybody in mytown that I was the lead dad?
Hell no.
You know I live in a town wherecaregiving is done by moms and
paid caregivers.
You know I was the undercoverlead dad.
Did I tell anybody at the NewYork Times that I was a lead dad
?
Hell no.
Even though all of my editorswere women working moms at the
New York Times.

(01:00):
I was afraid that if I toldthem I would be seen as
insufficiently committed to myjob.
Did I tell any of my friendsaround town that I was a leave
dad?
Hell no, why.
What were men who were taken onthis role?
What were they called.
They were called Mr Mom, theywere called a house husband.
People said, oh, are youretired?
There's no good term for this.

(01:21):
You know.
A stay-at-home anything is nota good term.
Stay-at-home no good term forthis, you know.
Stay at home anything is not agood term.
Stay at home mom, stay at homedad.
Nobody actually stays home.
You're actually running a wholesystem.
There are 25 million men in theUnited States who are lead dads
or could be lead dads.
That's a third of all fathersand it's being driven by men in
their 20s and 30s, but men likeme in our 40s and 50s.
Covid was that wake up call.

(01:42):
We can work differently and bemore involved with our families,
more involved with our spouses,and help with all of that
invisible labor at home.
But guess what?

Speaker 1 (01:57):
We can also be advocates for working moms and
caregivers.
A group learning platformhelping employers care for the
caregivers on their teams.
Talks to Paul Sullivan, formerNew York Times financial
columnist and founder of theCompany of Dads, a platform
supporting lead dads men who arethe go-to parents, whether
they're working full-time,part-time or they're devoting

(02:17):
all of their time to theirfamilies.
Join us as we talk about how weas a society and as company
leaders should embrace lead dadsand how together we can
counteract unhelpful gendernorms, both at work and at home.
For our guests, full bios andshow notes, go to wwwbestherco.

(02:44):
Forward slash podcast.
If you enjoy the episode, shareit with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
This episode is brought to youby Vest Her Ventures, a peer
network of professional womenand investment fund for women
led companies in the careeconomy and future of work.
To learn more, go towwwvestherco.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session with

(03:06):
Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Tell us a little bit about the journey here At Keep
Company.
We really try to.
We try to approach these topics, I think, as like whole people,
so feel free, like theinterwoven, the interweaving of
the personal and theprofessional, is what we think
the baseline should be.
So, with that assumption, whatpersonally and professionally,

(03:33):
led you to start the company ofdads?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Great, thank you.
So to give it away, it wasCOVID.
But to sort of backtrack, I'llstart by defining, you know, the
term lead dad that we use allthe time, and a lead dad is the
go-to parent, whether he worksfull-time, part-time or devotes
all of his time to his family.
And then we say in many caseshe's there to support his wife

(03:56):
or partner in whatever they'redoing.
We say in many cases because18% of fathers in the United
States are divorced, widowed orotherwise single.
And then the last thing we sayis in every instance, a lead dad
is there to be an ally toworking moms and caregivers in
general in the office.
So I can weave the personalwith the professional, because
that's really what this story is.
It begins as I say.

(04:18):
You know, my parents werehorrendous at being married and
it turns out they were evenworse at being divorced.
So I grew up in a town calledLudlow, massachusetts, which is
exit seven off the Mass Pike.
I will give a fancy dinner toanyone who's ever stopped there.
Many people go past it asquickly as they can, and I had
two goals in my life.
One was not to live in myhometown when I was older, and I

(04:42):
accomplished that by going offto college and never returning.
And the second was I wanted towrite for the New York Times,
which seemed absolutelyludicrous growing up in this
depressed bill town in WesternMassachusetts, but it worked out
In 2008,.
I became a columnist for theTimes the year before I got
married, and I'll give a coupleof dates here that lead up to
another key year before thepandemic.

(05:02):
That's 2013.
I got married and I'll give youa couple of dates here that
lead up to another key yearbefore the pandemic.
That's 2013, 2007.
I was married.
2008.
I become a columnist.
2009.
Our first daughter is born.
2010.
My first book comes out andpeople like it.
They like it enough that theystart paying me to give keynote
talks.
I don't even know that thisindustry exists before that.
This is amazing.
I seem to have an aptitude forit.
I love every bit of it.

(05:23):
2012, our second daughter isborn.
I've already sold my secondbook.
Life is.
I could not even have imaginedas a child, growing up with
divorced parents yelling at eachother in Ludlow, massachusetts,
that this is where I would be.
And in 2013, my wife, who'salways worked in asset
management, said you know what?
I think this is the time tostart my own business.

(05:44):
And I said 100%, you have to doit.
My life this is more.
I'm more professionallyaccomplished than I ever
imagined that would be.
I want to support you.
And she says I'm going to tellyou one thing, though you may be
mad at me.
And I'm like, why would I getmad at you?
Well, I'm going to go tell mypartner tomorrow the truth.
I'm going to tell him that inthree months I'd like to leave

(06:04):
and start my own firm and we'regoing to put the clients first,
like we've always talked about.
And that's what I'm going to do.
And I said you're right,whatever you do, don't tell him
that.
And she said no, no, no, thisis what I believe I'm going to
tell him.
I don't know if anybody herehas worked in financial services
, but the minute she went totell her partner a man, that she
was going to do this, he firedher immediately.

(06:26):
And then the attorneys called.
And then she came home and shesaid what are we going to do?
And I said well, laura, I'msure, growing up as a little
girl in Atlanta, you dreamt ofone day marrying a New York
Times columnist.
But guess what?
The person who works in assetmanagement earns a lot more
money.
So I think you start thebusiness today.
And she said well, what are wegoing to do about the kids?
And that's when I said I'llbecome the lead dad and she said

(06:48):
what does that mean?
And I said, laura, is it reallya time to panic?
This is a bit of a crisis we'rein, and what it meant was I
could step into this role that Isort of created.
I'd heard somebody use the termyears ago, but I really embraced
it and I became that go-toparent.
Now did I tell anybody in mytown that I was the lead dad?
Hell no.
I live in a town wherecaregiving is done by moms and

(07:10):
paid caregivers.
I was the undercover lead dad.
Did I tell anybody at the NewYork Times that I was a lead dad
?
Hell no.
Even though all of my editorswere women working moms at the
New York Times, I was afraidthat if I told them I would be
seen as insufficiently committedto my job.
Did I tell any of my friendsaround town that I was a leave
dad?
Hell, no, why.

(07:33):
What were men who's taken onthis role?
What were they called?
They were called Mr Mom.
They were called a househusband.
People said, oh, are youretired?
There's no good term for this.
You know, a at home Anything isnot a good term.
Stay at home mom, stay at home,dad.
Nobody actually stays home.
You're actually running a wholesystem.
And so I did this as anundercover lead dad and I had

(07:53):
lots of funny stories about it,including one time interviewing
a White House cabinet officialin front of my daughter's ballet
studio and having to hang up onher so I could take the call
from the pediatrician, and notfeeling like I could tell her
that, even though she had kids,that I could tell her
pre-pandemic that I had to takethis call from the pediatrician.
So what happens?
We get to 2020.
We get to the pandemic and Irealized that being a lead dad

(08:17):
and a New York Times columnistis not tenable.
I'm as busy as I can possiblybe at the times.
My wife is as busy as she canpossibly be with her asset
management firm.
She's got five or six employeesnow she's worried that this is
going to be 2008.
She may have to fire people andmy kids, as happened with so
many other people, are sittingin my living room.
I now have three daughters andI think this is not.
I don't know how to do it.

(08:37):
And so what did I do?
I went online thinking that theGoogle, because the Google is
the source of all knowledge inour world, the Google would
solve my problem for me.
The Google did not solve myproblem.
The Google showed me thatthere's tons of stuff for moms,
all the stuff for parents,really for moms and the only
things for dads were dads insome form of distress horrendous
divorce, drinking problem,formerly incarcerated, super

(09:01):
important but not what I needed.
And so I did what anyjournalist would do and I said
how many lead dads are there inthe United States?
And that was the moment where Isaid I think there's something
here.
There are 25 million men in theUnited States who are lead dads
.
It could be, yes, that's athird of all fathers, and it's
being driven by men in their 20sand 30s, but men like me in our
40s and 50s.

(09:21):
Covid was that wake-up call.
We can work differently and bemore involved with our families,
more involved with our spousesand help with all of that
invisible labor at home, butguess what?
We can also be advocates forworking moms and caregivers in
the office.
I then thought how will I knowif this is real?

(09:42):
And I said I cannot ask menbecause men will lie to me.
I would have lied to me ifsomebody came up to me and said
caller, you're a lead data.
No, no, no, I'm a New YorkTimes columnist.
Perhaps you saw my series oftalks that I gave in Chile last
year.
Five cities, five days.
Never in a million years wouldhave said that I was a lead data

(10:11):
.
So I asked them you know, whatdo you think of this idea?
And they fell into threebuckets.
That was my husband.
I wish that term existed.
His friends all made fun of him, but he helped me develop the
career that I have today.
The second was I love myhusband, but we've had some kids
.
He doesn't do much at home.
It's really causing friction.
I wish he'd developed some sortof lead-dad bootcamp.
And the third group, the onethat really hurt me, because
this is my childhood.
I divorced my husband X numberof years ago.
He could never wrap his headaround me being the higher
earner.
It was very difficult, but Iwish you well so that other

(10:34):
people don't have to go throughthis.
And that was the combination ofall of that.
And I have three daughters.
My wife has been verysuccessful on Wall Street a male
dominated world.
I said I have to do something.
I have this platform, so I leftthe Times at the end of 21,.
Started the company of dads atthe beginning of 22 and do three
things media, community andworkplace education.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
I love it.
No, I think there's a womannamed Eve Rodsky who wrote a
book.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
She's on my board.
She's a good friend of mine.
She's, yes.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yes, so I.
For anybody that's not familiarwith Eve Radzky, she wrote her
first book is called Fair Playand, to kind of bottom line it,
she says we need more men tostep into their power in the
home so that more women can stepinto their power out in the
world, and I just love thatphrase.

(11:26):
So my first question for you,Paul, is really what does it
look like for men to step intotheir power in the home?
What are the changes orstructures we need to put in
place for that to be morepossible, more accessible to
more men?

Speaker 2 (11:44):
So in some ways and I love Eve not only is there the
book Fair Play, but she has awhole system of cards, and many
of you may know about this, andthese cards help you have very
difficult conversations.
In some ways, I think it iseasier.
It's important for men to stepinto their power, as you're
saying, in the home, but alsofor them to be allies for

(12:04):
working moms in the office.
And I think in some ways, it'seasier to do it in the home.
Why?
Because the home is a privatespace.
You know, eve uses cards.
We use something a little evenlower tech.
Uh, we call it paper test andit's simply we ask if it's a
husband and wife pair.
We ask the husband to writedown a piece of paper all the
stuff that he thinks he does inthe home and all the stuff that

(12:24):
he thinks his wife does in thehome and then vice versa and we
ask him to have a conversation.
We guarantee a hundred percentthat those lists will never
match up.
And the reason we do that is,you know, as a child of the four
parents, I know that resentmentdoesn't spring fully formed
overnight.
Resentment builds up.
It's, you know, if any of ushave and look under our couch
when we go home tonight, ifwe're not at home, chances are

(12:45):
there's dust under there.
That dust doesn't get there oneday, it just it's an accretion.
And that's what resentment isand that's what causes problems.
You know, no working mom on dayone has taken on 20 or 25 extra
tasks that her husband is notdoing.
It has happened one by one, byone, and there's not been a
conversation.
We add stuff to our stuff.
We add stuff Eve uses a greatphrase mental load.

(13:06):
We add stuff and we take onthis mental load.
At home it starts with thatsimple conversation and to sort
of, you know, nobody givingpeople ownership, giving
ownership of those assets.
Where I do more of my work iswith companies, because in the
office, really, the research youknow pre-pandemic, that men who
put their hands up this iscoming out of Austin College men
who put their hands up to bewhat we call lead dads.

(13:27):
But anybody else who calls itthe fully involved father were
penalized at work.
They were seen asinsufficiently committed to
their job.
Now every working mom on thiscall is going to say hey, hey,
buddy, you know, haven't youever heard of the motherhood
penalty?
And of course I have.
But two things can at the sametime.

(13:47):
Companies have a very genderedview of who is going to do what
in the workplace and a verygendered view of who should be
promoted, who should be paidmore, and it's not true anymore
and it hasn't been true for along time.
But the one thing that COVIDdid is it accelerated all these
trends that were alreadyhappening.
So we really push for men to belead dads at work, not just for
themselves.
Great, good for them, but it'sgreat for all those working moms

(14:08):
because they have an ally.
It's also great for all thosehiring managers because they
could say wait a second, I'vegot lead dads, I've got working
moms, caregivers.
We can make small changes thathave a big impact.
Now.
This question may come later on,but we can see like a company
like Deloitte just steppedforward this year, at least
yesterday in the UK and theyannounced that all their dads
are going to get six months ofparental leave, and they did

(14:31):
that, and they said it straightout.
They said that not because wewant to be a great company and
give dads time to bond withtheir children.
That's an ancillary benefit.
They said it because they wantto be able to promote more
female partners and they want tobe able to identify the best
partners, and the way you dothat is, you know something as
simple as forcing people to takeequal parental leave, because I

(14:51):
have three kids.
My wife had taken 20 weeks foreach child and I had taken one
week for each child.
There's a 57 week delta.
That's happening at giantcompanies, and therefore people
are getting promoted, maybe justbecause they're there, and they
may not be the best person,though, so there's a huge
economic benefit to embracinglead dads as as allies to
working moms, both in the homeso everybody gets stuff done but

(15:13):
really, uh, in the office, sothat we can create these
equitable, resilient companiesfor the future yeah, absolutely
so.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
Um, you know, the stat that we often come back to
is up to 73% of the workforce istaking care of somebody at home
, right?
So when we talk about companypolicies, oftentimes they're
focused on not just moms, butnew moms, and so what we see is
a lot of the benefits and, ofcourse, we haven't done even

(15:42):
nearly enough.
There In the US, there is notpaid leave on and on, but
understanding that often whatthat leaves out is moms of
elementary age kids, moms ofteenagers, dads of teenagers,
dads of adult children that havesome sort of caregiving
responsibility sandwichgeneration folks caring for

(16:04):
parents, right?
So really, what we?
Yes, people with disabilities.
There are so many types ofcaregiving.
People often talk, they postpictures of their kids in
Halloween costumes in thecompany Slack.
They often don't talk aboutcaregiving, and so that stigma
that I don't want to tellanybody about this because I

(16:25):
will be perceived as lessambitious, less capable is
pervasive, right?
And so one of the kind ofquestions I have for you you
talked about Deloitte what areother policies that you have
seen companies implement thatyou have seen be really
effective in creating this kindof culture shift where more dads

(16:48):
feel comfortable to one dad outloud like talk about their
fatherhood and to step into moreprimary responsibilities in the
home.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
It's a great question .
So a couple of things, and youknow we I'll talk about three
different policies, that we talkabout a lot, that all fit under
our rubric of small changesthat have a big impact.
And they all come back to onething, and that one thing is
honest the ability to be honestwith your responsibilities and

(17:20):
therefore to be both a betterparent or caregiver or a better
worker and therefore, to be botha better parent or caregiver or
a better worker.
So the first one we talk aboutis care days, and a care day is
not a sick day, it's not avacation day, it's not a
personal day, it's not abereavement day.
It is a day when there is a careemergency and we've talked to
companies about implementingthis.
Give people five care days,give people 10 care days, and

(17:45):
what does it allow you to do?
It allows you to be honest andtransparent when you have a care
emergency.
When I first proposed this, Igot this very heartfelt LinkedIn
message from this woman whoremembered her mom calling in
sick whenever she was sick, andit struck her as why is my mom
lying?
My mom told me never to lie andshe's calling in to work saying
that she's sick when I'm reallythe one who's sick.
She has to stay home to takecare of me.

(18:06):
So that honesty is reallyimportant and we've had examples
of leaders, you know, puttingit on their calendar.
I am taking a care day and atfirst and look, unfortunately,
this is not going to start withyour entry level employee.
This has to start withmanagement, because management,
you're not going to fire,they're not going to get fired
and they're going to be able tolead by their calendar.
When they announce they'retaking a care day, all the

(18:28):
people on the same level aregoing to say what the hell's the
care day?
What's this guy doing?
And then they're going tounderstand what he's doing.
But all the people below thatperson are going to say, okay,
if it's okay for him to take thecare day, it's okay for me to
take care of it.
The second thing we talk aboutare care shifts, and care shifts
could be for a parent, anycaregiver, and essentially the

(18:50):
idea is you agree to a dedicatednumber of hours each day in
which you're going to worksynchronously.
So say, you're going to worknine to 3.30 or nine to four.
It doesn't mean those are theonly hours you're going to work
each day.
It means those are the hoursthat you're going to work
synchronously and that gives youtime, you know, to pick up
something.
Maybe if you have elder care,an adult in elder daycare you
can go pick up.
And then it recognizes that noteverything that we do in the

(19:13):
office happens synchronously.
We've got PowerPoints, wealways have emails that we're
answering at night or in themorning.
We have longer projects thatbenefit from a lot of things and
I get pushback on this.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Sometimes People will say you know, that's a crazy
idea, you know who's doing that?

Speaker 2 (19:28):
The Sierra Club.
I was like I don't know.
I don't know what the SierraClub is doing.
They never talked to me, but Ican tell you who is doing it and
that's a company calledDimensional Fund Advisors.
And they'll say DimensionalFund Advisors.
What's that?
I said, well, the name of thebusiness school is the Booth
School of Business and DavidBooth is the founder of
Dimensional Fund Advisors andhis name is on the business

(19:48):
school at Chicago.
And I say, oh, and I said letme just tell you, you don't get
your name on the business schoolof the University of Chicago by
attending every alumni reunion.
You get your name on thebusiness school of the
University of Chicago by, in hiscase, donating $300 million.
So David Booth is running themost for-profit, for-profit
company you can imagine.
And he instituted care shiftsat DFA because he wanted to
retain workers, he wanted toallow them to be productive.

(20:11):
But he also wanted toacknowledge that it's easier to
focus in a certain time when youdon't have all these care
things swirling around you,knowing that you have time to do
those later on.
And then the third thing we talkabout are care compabs.
And what is a care compab?
It's no more than havingparenting groups that really

(20:32):
call men in Because I don't knowif I can show hands.
Probably won't be veryimportant, but I love the Barbie
movie.
I'm not sure how many peoplehere have seen the Barbie movie.
I went to see the Barbie movie.
My daughter this will come as noshock to you dressed me up as
Ken, not the cool Ken, one ofthe other nerdy Ken, but that's
a different story.
And when you watch the Barbiemovie, there's a point in there
where all the men they'vediscovered the term patriarchy
and they're going crazy and Kenis leading them and they're all

(20:53):
in the Mojo Dojo Casa houseexcept for Alan Like.
Alan is the nerdy guy who theBarbies don't really like and
the Kens don't really like.
Well, when you have a parentingERG now and 100 people show up,
97 are going to be working momswho have lots of things to talk
about.
The other three are going to bethe Allens.
Those Allens are the three guyswho least need to be there.
What we do when we have thecare comp house is we get some

(21:15):
of those Kens from the Mojo DojoCasa house and we get some of
those Kens from the Mojo DojoCasa house to come over and be
part of that parenting group andyou create allyship with that.
Suddenly, people are talkingabout their kids, they're
talking about their parentingresponsibilities, they're being
honest that we're not moms ordads, we're caregivers and we
can do our jobs at a high leveland still be parents and still

(21:37):
be the.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yes, absolutely so.
Care days, care shifts, callingmen in.
I think that a lot of what wesee we work exclusively with
employers and very much resonatewith a lot of what you're
sharing and one of the thingsthat we see is that when
leadership parents out loud,talks about themselves as a

(22:00):
whole person, it creates thisimplicit permission to do that
too, right?
So if I can take the time andspace and I am an executive,
then this creates kind of animplicit permission and I would
say this is an invitation toeverybody in this conversation.
You have more power than youthink you do in shifting the

(22:21):
culture of your organization andmore people are watching than
you think.
Right To, when you parent outloud in lots of different ways.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
So one that's a great point.
I just want to add one thingbecause people are parenting out
loud, whether they think theyare or not, and so we want
really people to parent out loudin an intentional, positive way
, a lot of guys, a lot ofmanagers, will be out there
saying, oh yeah, you know you'retaking that time off.
I remember when I was your age.

(22:51):
I worked all the time.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Do you have any idea how?

Speaker 2 (22:54):
much I missed.
I missed a lot.
That's parenting out loud, butin a negative way.
My wife remembers when she wasa junior associate in asset
management, one of her seniormanagers, a woman, was sort of
bragging that she was going intolabor on her BlackBerry still
working.
That's a way of parenting outloud, but in a negative way.
We want people to see you know,post-pandemic, that it is

(23:15):
important to be parents becausethe more focused you are at work
, the happier you are at work,the least likely you are to
leave, Like at the end of theday.
We talk of all these policiesas retention tools.
That's what they are.
These are the things to savecompanies money, but they're
retention tools and beingintentional, how you're
parenting out loud, is really atthe crux of a lot of this.

Speaker 4 (23:36):
Absolutely, and what we find often is that they're
skills.
Right, these are skills.
We need managers to have, thisskill, for example, of
self-awareness, to think abouthow they are communicating
implicitly or explicitly to yourpoint, how they, and therefore

(23:58):
the company, feels about you,talking about your family or
your big job at home in additionto your big job at work.
What do you recommend on thatfront, and are there any
companies that you see doing agood job in terms of manager
training, in terms of upskillingmanagers, to be kind of

(24:18):
advocates for building moreeffective cultures where people
can stay and have differentseasons of family too?

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah.
So two companies that come tomind with two very different
approaches.
One is the carrot approach andthe other is the stick approach
and they're doing it to sort ofachieve similar ends.
The stick approach a companycalled Bailey Gifford, which is
an asset management firm basedin Edinburgh, but it's a global,
gigantic asset management firm.
They require that moms and dadstake equal leave, and they

(24:51):
really require it to the pointwhere, if you're caught, you
know cheating and going backinto the system, um, you'll be
locked out.
And this is not like oh geez,what's claudia's cell phone
number I got.
I want to send her a funny textof me and my child.
This is okay, I'm logging inand I'm going on these meetings
and I'm trying to figure stuffout while I'm supposed to be on.
Who does this?

(25:11):
The vast majority are men whoare doing this and Bailey
Gifford shuts them off.
They are cut off.
And again, they are doing thisnot because they want them to
bond with their children.
They are doing this becausethey want them to bond with
their children.
They are doing this becausethey want to create an equitable
workforce and they know thatthe world is changing and the
great asset managers of todaymay not be the great asset

(25:31):
managers of tomorrow, and theseare people who are managing
pensions for the state ofOklahoma.
We have someone from Oklahoma.
They're managing teacherpensions, they're managing
firefighter pensions.
This is important stuff andthey want to make sure that they
make the best choices inselecting the people to be their
future leaders, not justselecting the people who are
there.
So they use that stickerapproach.
A carrot approach is.
Pwc does an awesome job and theyhad a woman I would highly

(25:53):
recommend her.
She's just left to start herown consultancy.
Her name is Deanne Awesome.
It was about the best last nameyou could possibly have to do
this job A-U-S-S-E-M-D-N.
Awesome.
And she created a wellnessprogram at PwC way before the
pandemic.
This is like 11, 12 years oldand what Deanne did is she
looked to get the most inclusiveprogram she could.

(26:14):
It was parents, it wascaregivers, it was disabled
people, it was non-binary people.
She cast this big tent and madePWC a place that you wanted to
work.
And it's so important when youthink of something like
consulting or professionalservices, because these are
companies or I know you work alot with law firms I mean these

(26:40):
are companies where people canliterally get up and leave and
get the same job next door withmore money and more benefits.
And so this is not a groupwhere they're all making I don't
know Cybertrucks or somethinglike that.
Maybe if you can't go acrossthe street and make your own
Cybertruck, they are knowledgeworkers, they're super smart and
they can literally.
I don't like what PwC is doing.
I'm going to go to Deloitte orI'm going to go to Bain and I'm
going to do the same job in adifferent environment.

(27:02):
So they were so smart to takethis carrot approach, starting,
you know, 11, 12 years ago, toreally get workers involved and
to really particularly aroundparenting, to make both the
birthing and the non-birthingparent feel like they were given
time off to be parents, to sortof ease into this role and at
the same time because youmentioned this earlier on,
claudia it's not like, you know,you could give somebody a year

(27:24):
off for a parental leave, butit's not like on the 366 day,
parenting somehow becomes easier.
I mean, my kids are 7, 12, and15.
And my wife and I sometimesjoke that we wish we could go
back to those sleepless nightsof changing diapers at 2am.
I mean, the child can't move,nothing can happen, and so I
think companies need to say likeokay, this is a parenting

(27:46):
journey, how can we supportpeople on this parenting journey
?
And when they think in thoseterms, that's when a lot of
those policies will be wildlyapplicable to caregivers in
general.
Because you have a loved onewith cancer, you have a loved
one who's injured that couldcome at any point in your career
.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
Let's talk about community.
So let's talk about theloneliness epidemic.
Let's talk about the SurgeonGeneral's latest advisory on
parental mental health.
This is something I'm reallypassionate about and something
that brought kind of Erica and Itogether, and you know this.
This Zoom is a testament to it.

(28:25):
Right, talk a little bit aboutthe role you see community and
deepening relationships amongdads playing in creating this,
this change.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I'll talk about in two formats.
And you know, after readingthat Surgeon General's report it
was like the one-two punchfirst loneliness, then parenting
, and I thought to myself likeshould?

Speaker 3 (28:45):
I just take up smoking.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Would that be like better for me?

Speaker 5 (28:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Like you know, I've somehow avoided smoking and I
thought that would be the rightthing for parenting.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
Who knew it was hazardous to my health?
Well, the data said it.
So, just for context, so foranybody that didn't, at, the
Surgeon General Vivek Murthy'soffice has been issuing several
advisories.
One that was issued was aboutthe loneliness epidemic the
amount of adults in the US thatreport ongoing chronic
loneliness, and the stat inthere was that acute, ongoing

(29:16):
chronic loneliness is as bad foryour physical health as 15
cigarettes a day something crazylike that and so the outcomes
are pretty dramatic and prettypervasive.
And then the most recentadvisory was essentially we have
a mental health crisis amongstparents and the stress that

(29:37):
they're under, and so itoutlined some recommendations
around that, and that was issuedabout two weeks ago.
So just for anybody that isn'tlike you know, nerds like us
watching the Surgeon General'soffice press wire every day-
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
So, to answer the question, two ideas for
community for dads comes to mind.
I mean, one of the things thatwe're doing at the company for
dads is we have monthly onlinemeetups that allow people to
come from wherever they are notwholly dissimilar from what this
is here.
And then we have, usually twoor three times a year, we have
in-person meetings in thegreater New York area, and this
allows men who are lead dads tocome and be with other lead dads

(30:19):
and talk about what they'redoing.
And I always remember this story, claudia, from when I the final
column ran in the New YorkTimes.
I talked about why I wasleaving, what I was going to go
do, and this good friend of minehis wife is a super senior
partner at a big, prestigiouslaw firm in New York City and he
is the lead dad.
And he came up to me and hesaid I love what you're doing.
He works in real estate, he hasa full-time job as well.

(30:41):
Uh, I love what you're doing,I'd like to be a part of this.
But, um, can I do itanonymously?
And I said I'm sorry, I, youknow, maybe you saw a draft
proposal of the community.
We.
We got rid of the throwingpuppies as far as you could into
the stream.
We thought that was really badfor our brand.
It just come together and joinit.
And he looked at me likestone-faced, not laughing at all

(31:02):
, all saying like no, no, no, Idon't want the people I work
with to know that I'm doing this.
And so what kind of world do welive in when putting your hand
up as a lead dad is somehowsomething to be embarrassed of?
And so one of the things we dowith these community meetings is
really draw men in and allowthem to talk, and we've tried to

(31:23):
show men who have thesethriving, wonderful careers, who
are lead dads and are alsomasculine.
One of our board members playedfor the Philadelphia Eagles and
won a Super Bowl against thePatriots Sacked some guy named
Tom Brady I don't know who thatguy is I don't pay attention to
guys with great hair and so he'sa lead dad, but he's a very
masculine lead dad.

(31:44):
The other side of this is, youknow, one of your first
questions, claudia, was talkingabout equalizing things in the
home, and this is always when Iget a question like this, I try
to use it as a shout out to moms, to the allies, to dads.
And you know we jokingly saythere is no lonelier, scarier,
awkward place in America for alead dad than the playground.

(32:06):
You show up at a playgroundwith a young kid and it's filled
with moms and caregivers.
Nobody talks to you, nobodyinvites you over.
If they do, it's rare.
And they're not looking at youas what you are.
What you are is a parent.
What you are is a parent who'sthere to give your child some
exercise, some socialization,perhaps a play date.

(32:27):
You're not some creepy dudetrying to chat up the ladies and
this is.
You know, time and time again,when I talk to lead dads who
devote all of their time to thefamilies what some people call
stay-at-home dads again, wedon't use that term.
When I talk to those lead dads,that's what they talk about
again and again the lonelinessthey feel and the isolation.
And one of the things you knowwe can have small, incremental

(32:50):
change is what we go for.
A guy, a Harvard trained doctor.
He and his husband moved out toaround me, a town called Wilton
, connecticut, not too long agoand he was at a playground and
mom came up to him, saw the twodads playing with their kids.
Mom comes up to him and saysyou know, I'm sorry, I can ask

(33:11):
you something.
I don't want you to think it'sawkward, but which one of you in
this relationship is the mom?
And he was rightly immediatelyoffended and said we are both
the dads.
This is a Harvard traineddoctor, his husband is a Cornell
, trained psychiatrist and he's.

(33:31):
And the mom backed up and saidI'm really sorry, I didn't mean
to offend you.
He tells me this story.
He calls me, we become goodfriends.
Tells me the story.
And I said I got to be honestwith you, ramon, dr Ramon, I got
to be honest with you.
You're going to do somethingthat my Irish Catholic
grandmother taught me how to do,and that's you're going to use
guilt to bring about change.
And he says what do you mean?
I said you're going to callthat woman back and you're going

(33:54):
to say look, I'm a parent likeany other parent and I want
access to that Wilton Facebookmoms group, just like every
other mom in Wilton gets.
And he said why do I want that?
And I said if you want yourkids to have a childhood in
which you actually know what isgoing on, in which you actually
know how to get a used pair ofice skates for them to skate for
a month and a half before theyrealize they don't really like
ice skating, you need to be onthe Wilton moms group.

(34:17):
And he did that.
And he used guilt and of coursethis woman felt horrendous, as
she should.
Guilt.
And of course this woman felthorrendous as she should, and
the Wilton Facebook group is nolonger called the Wilton Moms
group.
It's called the Wilton Parentsgroup, and that's an example of
something like these.
Things are not gendered.
I mean, if you want to have agroup and you want to talk about
going out to dinner with allthe moms, have at it.
But these groups are reallyrepositories of information.

(34:37):
So the more that we can invitemen into these repositories of
information in the community,the easier it becomes for moms
and dads to share that burden ofparenting, or for the dad to
take over more of it, because hehappens to be the one who likes
to.
You know, find the used pair ofice skates for his kid is going
to ice skate for six weeks.

Speaker 4 (34:58):
I love it.
I think I think a lot of thethread today has been calling
people into the conversation,but I saw pushing into the
conversation Right Like that isa good example of somebody who
had the skills to push in andit's really powerful.
I would love to stay on thistopic of how moms can call dads

(35:20):
in and I would love a couplelike what do women get wrong?
This is a group of women.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou think, maybe two or three
practical things that womencould think about doing today to
call in more men to Father OutLoud at work, or call maybe the

(35:43):
dads in their life to call themin.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
This is about the most delicate question I've ever
been asked in my life.
What can a white bald guy in anorange shirt tell women?
I was like this is like talkabout a minefield here, claudia.
What are you setting me up herefor?

Speaker 4 (35:59):
I think we've built enough trust in this
conversation, to be able to knowwe're all coming from a place
of partnership.
So I think I will speak for theroom and say we're good here,
go for it.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
All right, Okay, so I'll say this.
You know, in my previous lifeat the New York Times, I was a
business columnist and every sooften you'd hear the story of
somebody would die young andunexpectedly and they'd have all
their personal business assetswere all in disarray.
And whenever you'd write astory like that, you get all
these calls and emails andpeople suddenly would say, holy

(36:38):
cow, I've got to get my, I'vegot to write an estate plan,
I've got to write a will, I'vegot to get all this.
And it took that moment ofcrisis for them to sort of act
on it.
So one of the things I use thatanalogy to say if you are a
senior female leader and you,when you had your children, if
you remember feeling alone, ifyou remember your husband
feeling like he had to go backto work immediately, even if he

(37:01):
didn't really want to do that,you know, use your power, use
your position to encourage bothmoms and dads to take the time
off and not just say, hey, whydon't you go, take parental
leave as well?
you know, put a policy in placethat gives them those guardrails
so that you can have that offramp.
You can have that time.
However, you know, many weeksyou get whatever it is something

(37:21):
better, nothing.
You, you can have that time offand then you can have the
on-ramp to come back and thatperson you know, figure of
choosing a woman really needs towork with the other managers.
This is not about, you know,hiring a company to create the
world's greatest HR plan.
This is about bringing in, youknow, people like you and me,
claudia, to sort of helpcompanies message these things.

(37:41):
You know the second thing, andI've been a beneficiary of this
it only takes one or two moms onthe playground to sort of reach
out to those dads.
Now, to be completely fair, whoare the moms that historically
have reached out to me when Iwas an undercover lead dad and
helped plan?
They're mostly working moms.
They're working moms becausethey're trying to juggle all
this stuff too, but it's youknow you want moms to be.

(38:02):
You know your your ally outthere, and I think you know the.
The third thing um, I think,when it comes to things in the
home, don't ever let frustrationbuild up.
Um, you know, when we talkabout paper test, or if you have
Eve's, you know uh cards, dothat in a time, not an extremist
time.
Do it in a, in a quiet time.

(38:24):
And I always say do it on aSaturday, do it on a Sunday, you
know.
Do it when your kids are doingtheir homework or something, and
get an hour, have a cup of teaor, if you like wine, have a
glass of wine and have thatconversation, because nothing is
ever solved when people areyelling at each other because
somebody has forgotten to pickup dinner or somebody has left a
child at an activity.
That is not the time to havethat conversation.

(38:46):
So if you, so if you want tocall your partner and you want
to call your husband, do it on aSaturday or Sunday afternoon
and really start thatconversation and say what do you
think you do, here's what Ithink that you do, here's what I
do, what do you think I do.
And that really moves things on.
Because, again, I come at thatfrom a very personal point of
view, not just as the husband ofa very successful woman in
finance, not just as the dad ofthree daughters, but as the only

(39:09):
child of divorced parents and Iwould like to make all three of
those things better I'd likepeople to find a way to come
together and not get divorced.
I would like my three daughtersto be able to become lead moms
or marry a lead dad, or not getmarried.
Married to do whatever theywant, not feel that just because
they're women that they have totake on these non-gendered
parenting responsibilities.
And, of course, I want my wifeto continue to have success in

(39:32):
her career.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
I have a lot more questions, but I'm going to ask
one more before opening up thefloor.
So start thinking about yourquestions.
As I asked this, this last onemaybe not last one because I
have a few more that might sneakin during the Q&A but what has
surprised you in this company ofdad's journey?
Certainly you started on amission.

(39:57):
You are still on that mission,but, as we all know it is, we
are always evolving in ourfamily lives and our
professional lives.
So is there anything that hassurprised you or that you didn't
expect as you started thisjourney?
That you as you, as you look atwhat you've achieved over the
last couple of years?

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, it's good.
I don't want to sound arrogant,I don't.
I knew it was a good idea at agreat time and it's proved to be
just that.
Um, and I've been reallyheartened I wouldn't say
surprised I've been reallyheartened by the number of men
all different either jobs, alldifferent ones reached out and
said I'm really glad this exists.

(40:37):
And I've also been reallyheartened by so many of the
senior female executives whobring me in.
I mean, this is the case.
Maybe it's kind of surprising.
It's not often men in theseroles are hiring the company of
dads to come in and give a talk.
It's that senior femaleexecutive who's seen what we're
putting out, who understands theimportance of this, who perhaps

(41:00):
had an experience herself witha spouse or partner, and they're
bringing it in.
So I guess, if there's onething that I would like to see
differently because once I go inthere's plenty of men in the
room I would like a senior maleexecutive to say hey, paul, I
want the company to come into myXYZ company and give a talk and
have him be the one who'sintroduced.

(41:20):
But you know what, as long as Ikeep giving these talks, doing
these seminars, I'm happy.
So whoever wants to bring me in.
Bring me in, but I wish moremen would be the one to initiate
that conversation.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
I hear a lot of hope in that.
You know, the data right nowaround loneliness and mental
health crisis amongst parents isreally devastating, so I think
I too have.
I mean, this is why you becomean entrepreneur, right?
You think that maybe you canput in, as we say in Spanish,
like you're a little piece inmaking it better, and I do think

(41:51):
there's a lot of hope right nowthat people are ready for some
change, and so I appreciate yourhopefulness.
I will let everybody jump inwith questions Again.
I have a lot, so if anybody hasany, let me know, and if not, I
can keep going.
I see one in the chat fromErica.
Is this for everyone across thecountry or limited to New York

(42:15):
based?

Speaker 2 (42:17):
It's for everybody across the country and we
actually maybe it's surprising,maybe it's not we have a lot of
Canadian lead dads and so Ithink maybe Canada is a slightly
more progressive country thanthe United States, but we have a
lot of Canadian lead dads, butit's all across, and that's
honestly why we do the monthlymeetups on Zoom and we do 8.30

(42:40):
Eastern at night, because theneven people on the West Coast
can kind of find a way to slotin.
So yeah, that's good, it'snational.
Another shout out like you know, there are some good models of
this in the UK and Australia.
I think those two countries aredoing a much better job than we
are, or at the very leastthey're further ahead than we

(43:01):
are in helping working parents,both moms and dads.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, absolutely Any other questions?

Speaker 5 (43:09):
Claudia.
I have a question, if I can.
Well, first of all, thank you,paul and Claudia.
This has been an awesomesession and I'm a little bit
nervous.
I haven't been to a VESTsession before, so I appreciate
the VEST community letting someof guys uh join today.
But um, I know we've talkedcalling you in chris we're
calling that's the message right, I feel it, I love it.

(43:30):
Um, and I don't want to skew usbecause I have a question that's
not about workplace, really, orcommunity, but with two teenage
daughters at home, I'm curiousof what you think the role of
lead dads might be ininfluencing the next
generation's perceptions ofgender roles.
So maybe we can kind of getahead of it in a proactive way.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, I mean thank you, chris.
I mean there's one, one thingthat I'm a hundred percent
certain of, uh, that I'll giveyou your money back.
Guarantee is that your children, just like my children, are
watching what you do a lot morethan they're listening to what
you say, and so you know therelationship that my wife and I
have as partners, both working,both doing stuff.

(44:12):
You know, in the home, as I say, like I'm a guy who schedules
every playdate, every birthdayparty, but you know, when it's
Christmas I'm just as surprisedas my daughter.
So my wife loves to buy thepresents.
So we found a way to sort ofsplit up and do the things that
we like to do.
But they see how we partner andthey see how we interact.
So my 15 year old is seeingthis as a model and when she

(44:34):
comes home she's always tryingto get my wife friends and she
say hey, you know, so-and-so'smom is a working mom.
You know, maybe you guys canhave coffee and so she knows
that model.
Same with my 12-year-old.
To sort of add on to thatquestion, probably the way
you're asking it, I don't knowif it's an issue for you, but
you know some guys will say tome, you know, when they have

(44:56):
four or five-year-old kidsthey'll say stuff like oh boy, I
have daughters.
Like I better really spend allmy time with them now because
once they become teenagersthey're not going to want
anything to do with me.
And maybe I thought that whenmy daughter was three or four,
but it's just not the case,because I've been there with my
kids throughout and so now atnight sometimes I'll go in and

(45:16):
sit on my daughter's bed andread with her while she's doing
her homework, or she'll come andask certain questions to me
that she doesn't ask my wife,and vice versa.
So I always tell you know, dads, that, like you know, think of
it.
This is a real investment andif you don't want to be that dad
who is alienated from histeenage daughter, and I only
know daughters.
I only have three daughtersInvest that time and keep doing

(45:38):
it, keep being there.
It pays off.
But again, to come back to thatquestion, as long as you're
modeling the world, you want toexist, even if it's not the
world we live in that's what ourkids are looking at and that's
what they're looking at.

Speaker 4 (45:59):
Yeah, I appreciate that so much.
I think I feel so stronglyabout normalizing many seasons
of care throughout a career,many different seasons where
family will pull hard.
I think parents of teenagersright now need a lot of support.
It is a very tough job.
There's a lot of unprecedentedchallenges.
I think that what we oftenencourage folks to do is it

(46:20):
might mean that it's a time fornew skills.
Like different stages ofparenting and caregiving require
different skills, and theskills that you need for
teenagers are sometimesdifferent than the skills that
you need for younger kids or formanaging aging parents, and so
we often lean into likelistening as a skill with
teenagers, the power of that.
But it's interesting, we keepcoming back to these themes of

(46:43):
like when to call folks in, whento push in, and I think what
I'm hearing Paul say is push inright, find your way to push in
and to be present if that'ssomething that that's important
to you.
So I love that that has kind ofemerged as a theme today.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, and I'd also add, claudia, one thing like if
somebody were to put on theircalendar, you know, going to
Sally's soccer game or going toBilly's middle school graduation
, nobody would bat an eye.
But those are what we callevent dads.
We want people to be lead dads,and so what I want to see
people do is put on theircalendar having ice cream with

(47:25):
teenage daughter and block outtwo hours and knowing that
you'll be back.
So I would love to get awaywith the OOO, the out of office,
as comfortable as you are.
Being honest, there's sometimes, with my teenage daughter, the
issues she had.
I need to just go and get anice cream with her, I need to go
and walk in town with her for45 minutes and then I get back

(47:47):
to work and that's.
Every parent has that happening, and the more honest we can be
about it, the more we cansupport each other in the
community.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Paul, let's stay there for a second if you don't
mind.
Bring that to life for us alittle bit.
So if Chris that two-hour blockon his calendar and let's say,
10 people on his team see thatblock, what do you think that
does?
What is the impact of thatpractically on the people that
see it?

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Well, immediately it tells you if your manager is a
jerk or not.
You've got that going for you.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
He likes ice cream.
How bad can he be?

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I don't know, I mean who doesn't like ice cream, you
know, but I'm fortunate to livein a town that has four ice
cream parlors, so we do havepretty heated family debates as
to which ice cream parlor is isthe best, but what it does is,
on a serious note, it shows youlike are you really supported at
work?
You know, I have a good friendwho's about to leave a wildly
high paying job at Goldman Sachsto go somewhere else, and he's

(48:45):
doing that because when hismother-in-law was really, really
sick, Goldman's you know, wordsdid not were not backed up by
their actions.
You know, after a week or so ofhim being home taking care of
his kids, still getting on Zoommeetings, they wanted him back
in the office and he said thisis absurd.
My mother-in-law has beenairlifted to a hospital and she
may die.
He is now looking for anotherjob and that's because he was
honest and they were in a sense,they were honest and so that

(49:08):
told him something.
On a positive note, you know,what does it do?
Well, it starts a conversationand it allows those other people
in your organization who arethe same level as you, maybe,
who are beneath you, reportingto you, say, okay, it really is
okay.
You know, my company talksabout the whole person.
My company talks aboutwork-life balance, but if they
don't actually support you knowChris or me going for ice cream

(49:30):
for 45 minutes with a daughterand coming back then there's a
hypocrisy there and, just as Isaid to Chris to answer Chris's
question, just as our kids arewatching us more than they're
listening to us when we look atcompanies now in this
post-pandemic world, we'rewatching to see if their actions
and their words align, andhypocrisy is the clearest
indication that perhaps, if wehave the choice, if we're able

(49:52):
to, perhaps we may want to finda different employer who
supports us in the way we needto be supported.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
Erica, I see your hand is up and we also have one
in the chat, so do you want totake it away, and then we'll?
We'll hit Kayla's question.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, yeah, and definitely Kayla's is a great
question.
So I don't.
I don't want to take too muchtime, but I I hear doctor, not
doctor, but professor Gallowaytalk often about the loneliness
the young men are experiencingand how that's translating into
toxic masculinity or seeing, uh,you know, males who do have

(50:31):
this mentality of non-genderroles and stuff as beta males.
How do we, um, how do weaddress that?

Speaker 2 (50:42):
It's a great question and I'll be honest because it's
something I always tell mydaughters Just because somebody
asks you a question, you don'thave to answer it.
If you don't know the answer, Idon't have an answer.
I don't have a good you knowanswer to that.
I don't know why my cousin, whois 20 years old and is a
financial aid student in college.
I don't know why he wants tovote for Donald Trump, um, but

(51:04):
he does, and there's somethingin the pro culture, uh, that the
more bombastic you are, themore appealing it is.
And it's a kid who's a supersweet kid, who's gone on
vacations with us and and beenaround with us, and so I don't.
I don't.
Unfortunately, I don't have ananswer for it, and it baffles me
and it breaks me, so we have agirl dad here.

Speaker 4 (51:24):
I'm a boy mom, so I feel so passionately about this
topic and I do think thatGalloway, who's a professor at
NYU Stern, has a couple ofawesome podcasts.
If anybody's interested in thistopic is doing interesting work
in kind of reducing the stigmaand adding to this conversation.
I think Kayla has a greatquestion.

(51:46):
What do you think makes morecountries more progressive with
lead dad parenting?

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, I mean.
This always comes back to theScandinavian countries Sweden,
finland, Denmark.
What makes them moreprogressive is they have a more
robust social safety net andthey have government that
stepped in and said your jobwill be guaranteed for you.
Um, and you know, I was talkingto somebody the other day and I
think it's denmark um, prettysure it's denmark where it's now

(52:11):
become, uh, you're stigmatizedif you don't take your parental
leave.
As a man, it's like, well, whatare you doing?
Like why wouldn't you?
Like you're the father, likeyou helped create this child,
why would you not then go beinvolved?
So it's actually seen as anegative, but it's the
government that has created thissupport system so that
companies aren't able to firepeople.
Or you know, I'm sure you'veshared this or the case of your

(52:34):
co-founder not able to changesomebody's you know job or
responsibilities when they'reout on parental leave
responsibilities when they'reout on parental leave.
So it's something that we'resorely lacking here.
A couple of states have triedto make inroads in this to
support it, but it's really thatgovernment wrapper that says
this is what you can do and thisis what you can't do.
And if we think about it,people may say well, I don't

(52:55):
know, can government do this?
Well, government helps us doall kinds of things.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Government helps with health insurance Government
helps with 401k plans.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
If companies had a program the way a company rolls
out its 401k plan to get themost people enrolled as possible
, that seems like they're doingit for the good of their
employees and in some way theyare.
But everybody who's ever workedon a 401k plan knows that the
more employees you get enrolledat lower salaries, the more
people at the higher salariescan put in.

(53:23):
So it's this kind ofself-serving altruism, but it's
something that they make a realpush for.
So if the government was ableto mandate that companies are
going to have to do some sort oftraining or guaranteed jobs
around both men and women whotake leave, I think that would
change the support because it'dbe a social safety net.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
just the Scandinavian countries have yeah, I think
you find in these conversationsoften it's very hard, when
you're talking about workingparents and caregivers, working
caregivers, to separate theindividual and the system.
So we have to talk about how toequip, empower, support, the,

(54:02):
but if they're in a system thatwas designed to not work, for
them, there will be limits, andso, whether we're talking about
the organizational system or thegovernment system, the
relationship between thosebecomes really important in this
conversation.
Jennifer, last question.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Yeah, thank you guys so much for this information,
and I think mine is more gearedtowards the how do you help
small businesses?
I'm a small business gettingready to move into the next
realm and a lot of my clientsthat I help with the back office
support within the humanresource policy procedure,
things like that.

(54:39):
This is a great thing, and whenyou try to talk to those
organizations and say, hey,let's build this, the first
thing that I get is pushback isoh, I can't afford.
Like, give the five care days,right, okay, that's just more
cost out of my pocket, it's notbillable expense.
How do you, is there a way thatI could help to convince them

(55:01):
that the trade-off in theproductivity with being flexible
in the hours, the flexschedules do you have any words
of advice or words of wisdom?
Because this is a veryimportant topic to me personally
?
And just a little background Imoved my parents right next door
to me three years ago because Iknow I will eventually be that

(55:26):
person, so I know the importanceof this within an organization.
I just can't seem to get otherbusiness owners to understand
that as well.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
I mean, claudia, I'm sure you have some great
thoughts here.
I'll just go very quickly.
You know, my wife's firm now isabout eight or nine employees
and one of her employees, a man.
His wife had their second childand so she was very passionate
about treating him as a lead dad, of giving him that time off.
And what she did?
She just planned.
She was able to plan for it.
You know, no surprise, he toldher quite early on, you know,

(55:59):
three or four months in, whenhis wife was pregnant and so she
knew, found out about when hewould go out on leave and he was
out for two months and sheplanned for it.
Was it a cost to her?
Absolutely, but she's taking along-term view.
This is somebody who's workedwith her for 10 years.
She depends on him, she countson him.
He has so much institutionalknowledge she wants him to get

(56:19):
in work for for her for another10 years.
So for him to be gone for twomonths, um, it just was a blow
she had to take.
Was she able, with a company ofeight people, to get somebody to
take over, um, all that he wasdoing?
No, she, she wasn't.
It was a.
It was a tough two-month period, but it was an investment for
the long term.
When you're talking about alarger company, um, it's just a

(56:40):
lack of wanting to do it.
There's really no excuse.
When you have these bigcompanies, there are people to
fill in.
I remember, though, oncetalking to somebody who was a
CHRO at one I won't out theperson, but at a very large
national pharmacy chain, verylarge national pharmacy chain,
and they had figured it out.
They were struggling because itwas really easy for them to

(57:03):
give parental leave toexecutives, because they could
have somebody else come in andtake over portions of that
person's job when he or she wasaway.
But it was really difficult forthem to figure it out for the
hourly workers, because,essentially, if you gave an
hourly worker that amount oftime off.
You then had to replace thatperson with somebody else.
They didn't figure it out.
I thought wonderful personshared the story with me.

(57:26):
So sure they tried, but Ithought that that was just a
lack of imagination, becauseit's such a gigantic company.
Obviously there'd be lots ofpeople going out.
But what are you doing?
A positive example coming atthe Home Depot, they're always
reinvesting in their employeesand their hourly employees and
they give them certain benefits,they give them money, they have
a fund If something happens, afamily tragedy, a roof, and they

(57:48):
are investing so that thosehourly workers stay.
And my childhood best friendfrom Ludlow, massachusetts, has
been an hourly worker at HomeDepot for, I think, 23 years now
and he has no desire to leavebecause they really take care of
him as if he is a salariedworker or an executive.
So it's really small companiesplanning see it as an investment

(58:09):
in the future.
Large companies really just noexcuse and a lack of imagination
.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Yeah, I would say ROI .
The cost of attrition is somuch higher than anybody talks
about.
In law firms, which Paulmentioned, we work with quite a
bit, and professional servicesfirms.
In law firms, it costs $650,000when one associate leaves, and
so doing some of that rigorouswork about cost of attrition is

(58:36):
valuable.
I put in the chat a carecalculator that we have on our
website.
That can be helpful, because Ithink my second point is it's so
many more people than anyonethinks.
Right, this is not niche, thisis the majority of your team,
and so, yes, I'm sure that Paulhas awesome resources on his
website.
So there's so much educationthat you can do to empower

(58:57):
people to be better advocatesfor this.
And then the last thing I'llsay is it's very convenient for
this to be a binary decisionthis.
And then the last thing I'llsay is it's very convenient for
this to be a binary decision andit's not.
So it's very convenient to sayeither we do this or we don't do
this.
The reality is there is a lotin the in-between.
Okay, so if cost is not a leverthat you can pull, what are the

(59:18):
other levers in terms ofawareness, education, leadership
from the top, all of theawesome recommendations that
Paul gave us today.
So I think my challenge wouldbe it's not binary.
This is no longer a yes or noquestion.
This is how.
How are you going to figure itout?

Speaker 1 (59:33):
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