August 27, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Vanessa Scaringi, a licensed psychologist and co-owner of CALM Counseling in Austin, TX. Dr. Scaringi recently authored an insightful article in TIME magazine examining the psychological effects of modern identity trends like the "soft girl" and "tradwife" movements, which are gaining popularity among Gen-Z women.
Together, we'll dive into the psychological implications of these trends, including the "childless cat lady" stereotype and the polarization of women’s roles. We'll discuss how these labels shape our identities, influence societal expectations, and affect mental well-being—and explore strategies for challenging and redefining these narratives.
Ready to rethink how society labels modern women? Join us as we explore the multifaceted identities of women today and the psychological toll of labels like 'soft girl,' 'trad wife,' and 'childless cat lady.' With Dr. Vanessa Scaringi, a licensed psychologist, we uncover how these stereotypes shape societal expectations and contribute to rising mental health issues among Gen Z women. We'll discuss the fear and challenges of embracing multiple identities in a politically polarized world, and why community support is crucial for women redefining their roles.
Curious about the societal judgments women face when they don't fit neatly into one box? We tackle the complexities women encounter in balancing diverse roles, like being a businesswoman and a traditional wife or mother. Using a recent article criticizing a successful woman for her traditional lifestyle as a starting point, we delve into how societal pressures can be both hurtful and limiting.
About our Guest
Dr. Vanessa Scaringi is a licensed psychologist in Austin, TX. Vanessa co-owns a group therapy practice called CALM counseling. Vanessa has dedicated much of her career to working in the eating disorder field, currently she offers supervision and consultation to clinicians hoping to specialize in eating disorders. Additionally, she enjoys writing and presenting on topics related to women's health and the therapy field more generally.
Vanessa recently authored a compelling article in TIME discussing the psychological impacts of modern identity trends, such as the "soft girl" and "tradwife" movements. These trends, particularly popular among Gen-Z women, reflect a shift from the "Girlboss" era to more rigid definitions of femininity. Connect with Vanessa on LinkedIn.
Show Notes
A Side of Freud Newsletter, social commentary and critiques filtered through the lens of a psychologist. By Dr. Vanessa Scaringi.
Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell
There Are Moms Way Worse Than You: Irrefutable Proof That You Are Indeed a Fantastic Parent by Gle
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the invisible barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know, culturally we're sort of in a position to
be at odds with one another,which not always, but I think
that there's this tendency formen to be able to have more
identities and be more sort oflike, you know, yeah, men work
and have kids, like that doesn'tmean that their dad identity is
now and they're, you know,switching their hat off.
(00:58):
One thing I talk about intherapy a lot with clients is we
all have everything within us,you know, and so when we have a
part of our identity that's more, um, maybe I do like to be at
home with my kids and you know,how can we work towards
embracing those parts ofourselves versus being rejecting
or judging?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I identify right now as a trad wife because I don't
have a job and I'm at home likecooking for my husband, but then
also I am a childless cat ladybecause I don't have kids, I
have cats.
I'm like incredibly liberal butI think there's like this
politicalization of themovements and I'm just curious
about like the thoughts of the,you know, far right embracing
(01:44):
trad wives, or the leftembracing the single, you know,
childless cat lady, and likewhat that does and how that I
think is controlling thenarrative a little bit and not
allowing us to actually embraceeverything and whatever role you
want to be be.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
How could we as a community one, just get loud and
also like support our peersabout really owning multiple
identities?
I feel like society and mediaand politics in a lot of ways
wants to like take from us aswomen.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
In this episode, we're joined by Dr Vanessa
Scaringi, a licensedpsychologist and co-owner of
Calm Counseling in Austin, texas.
Dr Scaringi recently authoredan insightful article in Time
Magazine examining thepsychological effects of modern
identity trends like the softgirl and trad white movements.
Together we'll dive into thepsychological implication of
(02:43):
these trends, including thechildless cat lady stereotype
and the polarization of women'sroles.
We'll discuss how these labelsshape our identities, influence
societal expectations and affectour mental well-being, all
while also exploring strategiesfor challenging and redefining
these narratives.
For our guests' full bios andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco
(03:09):
forward slash podcast.
If you enjoy the episode, shareit with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
This episode is brought to youby Vesther Ventures, a peer
network of professional womenand investment fund for
women-led companies in the careeconomy and future of work.
To learn more, go towwwvestherco.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session with
(03:34):
Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
How are modern identity trendslike the soft girl, the trad
wife, cat lady movements shapingwomen's mental health and
self-perception?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting.
So I actually came across thesoft girl trend.
I think it was in a glamormagazine article, maybe the year
prior, and I had no, I'm not onTikTok, I'm not really on a lot
of social media so I didn'tknow what this was, and when I
read the piece I was just sortof dumbfounded, like wait a
(04:09):
minute, it's 2023.
At that point, what's happeninghere?
I was a women's studies majorand I'm old, and so that was in
2002, 2003, you know, and I feltlike at that point the tides
were turning and women werebecoming more rooted in, you
know, empowering themselves and,um, feeling like they could
(04:33):
have high achieving jobs andmake a lot of money, and so to
see this like trend picking upand gaining steam was really
terrifying.
Um, so I'm derailing from youractual question, but in terms of
how it's shaping women, I justI think I got concerned like
wanting to understand how it isshaping women.
In my therapy practice I do seea lot of the Gen Z folks leaning
(04:58):
on some of those, I guess, thementality of sort of a soft girl
, not necessarily embracing thatculture completely, but just um
, having a hard time.
You know there's a rise in Iwork in eating disorders.
There's a rise in eatingdisorders.
There's a rise in depressionand suicidality and all these,
um, in that generationspecifically, and I I was
thinking about, is there a linkbetween these two things?
(05:20):
Like, is there some kind of umpressure I'm not seeing in women
to stay at home, or I don'teven just mean not work, but
just not push themselves andsort of not?
I think there's all this debateabout young workers, so anyway,
but that's what led me tothinking more about these things
(05:40):
and as far as, how is itshaping women?
I think there's a mental healthimplication.
I think I, what I see is thatthat's happening.
Um, I think young women mightfeel a little fearful of pushing
themselves or achieving certainthings when there's sort of
this whatever cat cult like youknow that comment that was made
(06:01):
um, there's fear.
There's a lot of fear, a lot oftrepidation about what it means
to be able to push yourselfnowadays and get out of your
comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And also I think it has to do a lot with like your
atmosphere right.
Like a lot of our best membersare actually in the middle of
the country where you know, theenvironment in which you operate
, the environment in which youlive, can actually dictate a lot
of how you show up at work.
And you know I often before someof the members joined, leslie
(06:36):
and I were joking about some ofmy social media presence, which
is all over the place, you know.
But I get asked all the time, ortold all the time that you know
, given backhanded complimentsby people saying, well, you know
, if I, if I acted like you orif I showed up like you on
social media, I wouldn't be ableto do anything Right, because
I'm very politically engaged, wewould never tell men that I
(07:00):
have friends, ceos, cfos,partners that are always
engaging in politics, alwaystalking about why they support
one thing over the other.
Yeah, we just see that asnormal, but when women do it,
it's like, oh, my gosh.
Now I do tend to be a littlebit on the I say whatever it's
on my mind, but I just,unfortunately, I still see how
(07:20):
this perception of how you know,how we impose as a society,
things on women that make themthink, oh, I should act like
this or I should fit more onthis, based on what is most
acceptable in your environmentor in the culture that you're
currently residing.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, and there's a lot of fear involved of what
we'll have.
What will the repercussions beif I put myself out there?
It's very scary For sure.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For sure.
In your Time article youdiscuss how these identity
trends can create both comfortand constraint for women.
Can you elaborate on thepsychological impact of
embracing these identities andhow you know they can empower
but also limit women in somesense?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, I was thinking about in that piece the comfort
part.
I think is more sort of it's abottlenecking experience where
it might provide some instantcomfort, where there's avoidance
.
I think in the piece I talkedabout like treat culture and
(08:28):
sort of ignoring some of theother you know bigger things
that we might have on our plates, and I don't know if people are
familiar with treat culture.
There's nothing wrong with it.
But it's like the idea of oh,I've got a hard day, so I'm
going to like treat myself to ahard day, so I'm going to like
treat myself to, you knowwhatever, a coffee or I do that
(08:52):
spend $8 on a latte today, likethese things are expensive and
they feel really good and warmand yummy in the moment, but
over time what are we avoidingif we're not really tackling the
bigger, the bigger picture?
And then there's this otherside, part of like financially
as women, what are we?
How are we positioningourselves if we're ignoring how
expensive things have gotten orif, you know, we sort of hide
behind some of these otheravoidance strategies?
(09:14):
So I think in that regardthere's some comfort in the
short term, but ultimately Ithink embracing some of these
trends can be really damaging inthe longterm.
For you know how can you sustainyourself if you're avoiding it?
You know how, how, what happensif you're hiding behind some
kind of identity.
Or I think there was a piece onthe stay at home, stay at home
(09:38):
girlfriend trend and I think itwas in the Washington street
journal.
I think so, but just thefinancial impact of like.
You know, I don't know how manystay at home girlfriends there
really are, but there are a lotof influencers on social media
that portray themselves that way, who also, ironically, make a
lot of money from being oninfluencers on social media.
(09:58):
But you know, if you'redependent on other people for
your income and not you knowworking to provide for yourself,
how are you hurting yourselfultimately in the long run?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I'm actually I'm currentlyreading a book Cultish, I'm not.
Has anybody read that book?
You know, creating community,right, like sometimes we
identify with a trend orsomething because we desperately
crave community.
And you know, and I feel thatway, here I am bringing my bias,
(10:33):
but you know, I feel like thiscat lady movements.
I'm like hell yeah, I'm not inmy life and I'm actually not
necessarily a cat person, butnow I'm like I identify as a
childless cat lady.
You don't even know how to be abeautiful girl, but I think
it's more like I wanted acommunity, right, like, hey,
unapologetic women who aresaying what they need to say,
(10:55):
for whatever reason, and so Ifeel like sometimes, to your
point, the comfort is to createcommunity, to find some sense of
belonging.
I think it's super important aswell.
But long term, like I also haveto remind myself hey, you also
(11:17):
need to talk to women whodisagree with you and understand
why.
Let's talk about the trad wife.
I did not know anything aboutthis until Courtney and Jay and
Gabby brought this to me, and sois everybody familiar.
Raise your hand if you've reada little bit or saw the TikToks
or the.
I was like completely clueless.
But this is actually a ballerinabased on one creator that's a
(11:40):
ballerina farm, I believe verysuccessful, has created a very
successful brand, decided tolive more.
So the Trad Wife is traditional, like I literally had to look
it up because I was yeah, sotraditional wives, but meaning
you know, I'm going to live in afarm, I'm going to, you know,
race.
I think they have eightchildren.
I can't remember how manychildren.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I'm sure they've lost count too.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right, right, right, right, uh, but they, they live
off of the farm, but then theyalso create content and then now
they sell items and they'velike made millions and they have
she, they have she has likeeight million people or
something following her, um, herdad or I think it's her dad or
his dad also owned or owns jet,so there's also a lot of money
(12:25):
that they've had.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for, if you haven't beenfollowing this, this is again
somebody that very successfuland has kind of made a career
off of being this trend, thisidentity.
But recently there was anarticle I forget you guys are
going to have to help me, gabbyand Courtney here but there was
(12:46):
an article that kind of was veryjudgmental of her choices.
So, courtney, you want toelaborate on that?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, she had a I don't know if it was a
contributor or an editor fromthe Times come out to their farm
to do a piece on she and herfamily.
She thought the conversationwent really well and then, of
course, the piece aired andexploded and really like
pinpointed a singular identityof her life, um, which was the
(13:18):
much more traditional way ofliving versus like speaking
wholly about like what they'vecreated and they are.
She is very much like abusinesswoman and um, so just
kind of created this like reallydifficult narrative that she
felt wasn't fully encompassingand didn't at all expect that
(13:41):
the conversation was going toend up and air in that way, and
so it felt really burned by that, which I think leads to an
interesting point.
Like we as women, a lot oftimes maybe we identify as more
like traditional wives or momsand families, but it doesn't
mean that we can't be and dothese other things and own that
(14:03):
too.
And I think society I want tosay it was a woman that wrote
that article, gabby, I'm notsure, but even like sometimes
women to women can like try toput each other in a single box,
which is just so dangerous.
So I actually have followedValerie in a farm for a long
time and I really enjoy her as acreator and I think it's
(14:24):
amazing what she and her familyhave built and find a lot of
admiration for her.
But this article just in recentdays and conversation is really
blown up in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, and I think you know that that's where I was
going with my point.
It's like so in one way youhave the trad wife and then in
another one, you know you havethe nominee for vice president.
You know calling women whochoose some, you know whether
they choose or whatever, forwhatever reason, they don't have
(14:58):
children.
You know.
Because they don't havechildren, they can't be
productive members of societyand they're not contributing to
society and therefore theyshouldn't vote and all of this
stuff and the child cap ladymovement kind of takes form.
So my question is how can we aswomen you know what are the
implications of us as womenattaching ourselves so much to
(15:24):
one or the other, and then howwe as women need to be more
supportive and understanding andnot be not lashed out right at
the other just for choosing adifferent lifestyle?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think you're also talking about
something just more generally,even just how hard it is to have
discourse and to sit withpeople who disagree.
But, yes, as women, I thinkthere's an added component.
I remember, back in my collegeyears I think, there was a book
called the Mommy Wars and it wasabout stay-at-home moms versus
(16:01):
working moms.
And, um, you know, culturallywe're sort of put in a position
to um be at odds with oneanother, which not always, but I
think that there's this umtendency for men to be able to
have more identities and be moresort of like you know, yeah,
(16:21):
men, I'm using air quotes, buty'all can see me.
But men work and have kids.
Like that doesn't mean thattheir dad identity is now and
they're, you know, switchingtheir hat off.
And I think that for women,there's probably some fear base,
like I imagine that woman goingout to ballerina farms and
interviewing, feeling veryfearful of like what is this
(16:43):
going to mean if people likethis one, the Ballot Arena Farms
brand, like was it, is it goingto take us back?
Like I don't think there's.
I think there's a lot of fearpotentially.
And I also think that one thingI talk about in therapy a lot
with clients is we all haveeverything within us, you know,
(17:05):
and so when we have a part ofour identity that's more um,
maybe I do like to be at homewith my kids and you know how
can we work towards embracingthose parts of ourselves, versus
being rejecting or judging orum, and I think if we could
extend that sort of grace toothers, we could understand why.
(17:26):
You know, maybe there's a goodreason.
Someone's doing what they'redoing.
I think with the Tradwife brandor sort of trend, it's so
provocative and it's so likeit's also so clearly they're
making money from this, and sowhat they're promoting is also
like, um, obviously not whatthey necessarily do or believe.
(17:48):
Like I actually don't know muchabout the ballerina firms room,
but I was thinking about anotherone, um, and I wish that they
would just, if they could justsay openly like I make a lot of
money from this, that mightdisarm people so that they could
be more curious.
Um, but I think there's thislike you know, in the influencer
world, we want to believesomeone is just living their
whole life in the way thatthey're telling us, but the
(18:15):
reality is, I'm sure thatwoman's going to business
meetings.
I'm sure she's up to date onwhat new products they're
launching or whatever, and if wecould know more it would
actually be more helpful.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, 100%, and I think you nailed it right.
It's like even just having theconversation.
That's why this session was soimportant for us to have it,
because I really do think thatwe are at a crucial moment where
, you know, regardless of howyou feel about certain issues,
women's rights are being are atstake, right, we actually have
(18:43):
less rights that we did just afew years ago that our mother
grandmothers fought so hard for.
And I always say to people thatare like you know, I mean, I
think we're all pro life.
I mean who's who's anti, youknow?
But I always say to my friendswho are, you know, uncomfortable
(19:04):
with even saying the wordabortion, it's like, listen,
it's not about taking that rightaway from you If you don't want
to have one, or if you, youknow, you can believe whatever
religious belief you want tobelieve, but we can't impose it
on other people, right, and wehave to protect other people.
And then also, we're talkingabout privacy, all of these
things, but, but for me, Ialways take it very
(19:26):
intentionally to say, hey, it'sokay, I'm this way, I love
working, I think I'm a bettermom when I'm working, and I
think my girls will attest tothat, and you know, and but.
But I also respect women thatchoose to stay at home for
whatever reason, right.
And so how do we create moreconversations about being
(19:48):
supportive and understanding ofdifferent lived experiences, of
different you know women withdifferent backgrounds, just
because my experience may becompletely different than
somebody else's here in the room?
And we need to have empathy inthe room, in the safe room, to
have those conversations so thatwe can be even more supportive,
(20:10):
particularly, like I said, intimes like today when our rights
and women's contribution arebeing diminished at the national
level.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I mean, there's always the concern that I have
If women are at odds with oneanother, then we're not fighting
for things that are reallyimportant, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Exactly Right.
We're over here discussing thetrad wife and chalice when in
reality we should be talkingabout you know.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I mean it's all very interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
but yeah, I mean it's very interesting but yeah, yeah
, hi, I'm Leah, excuse me.
I think that everyone should bewhatever they want and I don't
care.
I identify right now as a tradwife because I don't have a job
and I'm at home like cooking formy husband, but then also I am
(21:02):
a childless cat lady because Idon't have kids, I have cats.
I'm like incredibly liberal,but I think there's like this
politicalization of themovements and I'm just curious
about like the thoughts of the,you know far right, embracing
trad wives, or the leftembracing the single, you know,
(21:22):
childless cat lady and like whatthat does and how that, I think
, is controlling the narrative alittle bit and not allowing us
to actually embrace everythingand whatever role you want to be
.
And I actually think this likealso plays into like this very
binary, you know, view of life,especially maybe on the, where
(21:44):
you just you have to be onething that gets, and that, to me
, gets in the way of like policywhen you're talking about, you
know, gay rights or trans kidsor abortion or whatever.
And I'm curious to know aboutthe thoughts that everybody has
about kind of how we've takenthis and made everything
political.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, and also how other people are defining what
we should be, and you're eitherhere or here as opposed to us,
right?
That's a great question.
What do you think, Vanessawives?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
being for men.
I think that men are sort ofperpetuating, I think, the I
forget what school it was, butsome speech.
Someone came out and talkedabout how women should be a
certain whatever.
Yeah, ascribing roles to women,and yeah, I think men are
(22:43):
perpetuating a lot of therhetoric around that.
I also think that you knoweverything being binary,
everything being like you'rehere, you're against me if you
believe one thing just there'sno progress that comes from that
.
And, unfortunately, I do thinkthat with social media, there's
(23:07):
a lot of that's just what getsclicks and there's a lot of
that's just what gets clicks andthere's a lot of incentive to
sort of stay in those very likedichotomized lanes.
And I don't know if it actuallylike as we're sitting here
talking, it sounds like we'reall sort of probably agreeing
that like we can agree todisagree.
There's space for nuance, butwhen you translate any of that
(23:28):
online, it's just like there'sattacking.
There's there is no space fornuance on online, which is
really scary, and that's whereso many people get their
messaging.
That's where so many.
That's just where people live.
I think there was a study abouthow many hours we spend online
a day and it's something likesix hours, so if that's where
(23:50):
you're spending all your days,yeah, you sort of think of the
world in these ways and it's notreality.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
So that actually leads to my next question
perfectly how can we, giveneverything we just talked about,
how can women maintain a strongsense of identity while facing
all of these societal pressures,whether you're in social media
or not?
And how do we combat conformingto roles that are defined by
(24:20):
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, I mean that's like a lifelong of therapy right
there.
But I think, ultimately,surrounding yourself with other
women who are uplifting and arecurious, rather than, you know,
combative or prescriptive, and Ialso think, really trying to
(24:44):
internalize, like I can beanything in any moment, like
maybe this is a phase of my lifewhere I'm doing more of X or
less of Y, but it doesn't haveto define me, and knowing that
that's okay and that I mean Ithink it's so much easier said
than done.
I think the surroundingyourself with other women helps
you sort of helps inoculateyourself to the rhetoric that we
(25:08):
can all be exposed to.
But I have friends who are, youknow, stay at home moms.
I have friends who work.
I have friends who are inbetween, like being able to come
together and support oneanother in those journeys and
know that none of that is areflection on me, like what
they're deciding to do withtheir lives is like that doesn't
necessarily affect me, unlessthey're telling me I'm wrong.
(25:28):
But I don't have a lot offriends that do that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You talked about the need for therapy, right, and I
know that, and we haven't in away, de-thismatize it, but not
have we really like.
How many women are you actuallyseeing that are reaching out
for therapy support, forprofessional support, and how
(25:55):
can they find it?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, so another area I'm quite biased in is finding
good therapy.
I mean, I think right nowthere's also we're sort of
inundated with I might get alittle on my soapbox, but a lot
of the VC backed therapy worlds,which is like BetterHelp.
I mean you can't listen to apodcast without being exposed to
(26:20):
a commercial for BetterHelp.
Inherently wrong with a lot ofwhat better help does.
But, um, I think there's thetendency for some of those
platforms to really reinforcethe idea that there's some that
we should be better, that weneed to, like, have a problem
and recover from it.
Um, and, and some of that'sjust reflected in, like they,
(26:43):
they give a lot ofquestionnaires about your
progress and your therapy andthings like that, which none of
that's inherently wrong, butwhen we're told that we need we
have problems that we need tofix, versus, like, being really
curious in a long-term kind ofcapacity, um, that's where I do
long-term therapy.
I do a lot of group therapy andI think real healing comes from
(27:03):
that kind of experience.
Um, so I, as far as, like, Ithink women might be more.
I mean, women are more likelyto reach out for therapy.
Um, it's a little less of astigma still heavily there,
probably dependent on where youlive.
I'm in Austin, very liberal Iyou can spit and hit a therapist
(27:24):
here, um, so I know it's verylike a normalized experience
here.
But gosh, you go do two hoursand I know it's not Um.
So, yeah, I think, uh,approaching if you are going to
go to therapy with, like how canI just use this time to be
curious about myself?
And you know, group therapy I'malso really biased about.
(27:45):
I think that's where it's justtransformative Um, I think a lot
of women, especially um, canfind themselves like re
stretching the limit on in termsof how they um can take in
people.
I'm just thinking about whatwe're talking about with nuance.
Um, group therapy is such aplace to build that capacity for
(28:07):
nuance because you can sit withpeople from different
backgrounds and know that you'reall there for the same reason
of trying to develop morecuriosity, empathy, healing, and
that's that can be reallyuplifting.
I think you would ask, like,what about where you can reach
out or find things?
Yeah, I mean, right now we'resort of inundated with a lot of
(28:28):
money being spent on advertisingfor therapy, and so I would.
I would turn to like the momand pop kinds of therapists in
your community, um, if possible.
I know there's barriers andaccessibility there, but ask
about sliding scale, um, thingsyou know being work with someone
to maybe try to get that needmet in a different way.
(28:51):
And it doesn't have to be iftheir fee is something that they
won't budge, and not to deteranyone from better help or
anything like that, but just becurious.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
You know, going back to something that you said about
letting other people define ouridentity and imposing that, and
that being primarily malesdoing that.
One of my biggest issues withthis is and even just this whole
conversation is that once again, we're focusing on fixing women
(29:20):
Right.
What do we need to do, you know, to fix ourselves as if there's
something wrong with us, whenin reality and to your point
earlier, when you say you know,we're so focused on having these
conversations, which, in my myargument is we should instead be
focusing on what leads women toquit the labor force in general
.
Right, and a lot of times hasto do with workplaces were never
(29:45):
designed with us in mind, andyou know, sometimes workplaces
are so rigid they don't have theflexibility that not just women
, but working parents, you knowcaregivers have to do, and so
you know I always I have like alove-hate relationship with the
fact that women are launchingbusinesses faster than our male
(30:05):
peers Latina, six times faster.
But I also know why, right, andit's because the corporate
setting doesn't work for us, andso we then have to be creative
and figure out how to bringadditional revenue to the home.
So I want to have thoseconversations, right, because
then that places theresponsibility on us as a
(30:27):
society and as a community tolook at workspaces, right, our
workspaces.
How can we make them moreflexible, more supportive for
the workers?
Right, not just the owners andemployers?
So I hope that one of thetakeaways for the VAS members
here is that you know, whenwe're having these conversations
(30:47):
, they're important to have andwe need to see, like, how do we
keep ourselves accountable, howdo we embrace other
personalities or other you knowidentities, if you will?
But also, how do we take thisback to the larger conversation
of like, what leads us to behavea certain way or to do certain
(31:07):
things?
I wish that the whole on thetrad wife my bias was.
You know, I am concernedsometimes on how much the
decision was made by women rightTo live a traditional life, to
be the wife, to have X amount ofkids, to do certain things.
If it was genuinely hers, thenI'm all for it, right, and I
(31:31):
hell, let me invest in you andlet me invest in your company
and whatever.
But sometimes I just feel likewe were led to those identities,
we're led to making some ofthose decisions.
So just want to encourage Vestmembers to keep that in mind, as
you continue like, as we havethese conversations and other,
to look at the broader pictureof how it's affecting us from a
(31:53):
societal perspective.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Does anyone have anyone in their lives that they
disagree with on these topics,Like are they fielding comments
about their own work or Ipersonally experienced it with
my sister, and it is not herchoice, so I just feel like an
(32:17):
entanglement of, like my stomachjust drops and I've seen her
become a shell of a person overthe last 15 years.
I get really emotional talkingabout it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, that's tough too, right.
That's something that I also inreading and educating myself on
.
On, again, the ballerina dealit's not her, so let's take the
persona or the.
It's just you know and I aminto cults recently, so not
saying that you know anything,it's a cult or anything, but
just how the psychology right ofwhat leads you again to to to
(32:57):
join certain groups, to, um,identify with certain identities
, um, and then you know,especially if it's somebody that
you love, like you want to help, you want to say something, but
then you know, especially ifit's somebody that you love,
like you want to help, you wantto say something, but then you
know that sometimes that justmakes it worse.
So what do you do?
Do we do?
Are you just supportive and letyou know whoever be, whoever
they need to be, or what is ourrole in that?
(33:20):
Or how would you coach us,vanessa?
How would you provide therapyto us if we're in that situation
?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's really hard.
Thank you so much for sharing I.
I think when there's a lack ofchoice for, you know, especially
with something so big andprofound as your career and your
, this big part of your identity, um, we do.
We lose passion, we lose, youknow, friends, we lose, start to
(33:48):
lose ourselves and, as far asyou know, um coaching anyone
around this, I was thinkingabout just how to help someone
regain the sense of choice.
Um, but it's also really hard.
I mean, we're literally talkingabout a time for women where
we're losing our, you know,freedoms and choices.
Um, and so just being someonethere to talk to without
(34:12):
judgment is a huge win, becausehopefully there is a time where
someone sort of can come out ofthat and regain some of the
feelings of choice orempowerment.
I think of having young kids.
I have two littles and you dofeel like you don't.
I mean choices just start to goout the window.
(34:33):
If I have to pick up one of mykids from school, I have to
cancel my clients for the restof the day.
There's just realities andhelping people to know that
ultimately, there's going to bea time that I'm going to move
away from that my kids are goingto be older.
I'm not going to have to runoff and pick them up and helping
(34:54):
them tolerate that.
Being a year to listen in thosemoments can be really impactful
.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Thank you so much for sharing, Emily.
I know that's tough.
If there's anything that we cando collectively to support you
during this time, even if it'sjust to listen without judgment,
please reach out one on oneduring the Vest sessions.
Whatever we need to do, whoelse wants to share?
Speaker 8 (35:22):
I wanted to add something really quickly to what
Vanessa said, and I thinkwhat's important is us
advocating for each other whenyou're in a position of power
and talking about it openly,what it could look like.
And so, like you know,throughout my career, my husband
(35:43):
was in the military and did aton of deployments and I was
raising two kids by myself butworking full time minutes.
And I was raising two kids bymyself but working full time.
And when we talk about likechildcare and how expensive that
is, and then how, like, leastflexible your schedule can be,
and so when I started in my rolenow at BBV, the thing I told my
board was like I need anextremely flexible schedule
because I have no other options.
I don't have family that livehere.
(36:03):
I'm a great fit for this roleand I want to do good, but I
need these other things.
And they were really on board,which was helpful.
But that also meant that when Ihad team members who were
struggling with it, we wouldtalk about it and I'd say, okay,
here's what I've done and beenin your situation, so there's a
lot of solutions.
So it doesn't always have tolook like the black or white,
(36:24):
like I have to stay home or Ican work, or like there's so
much of an opportunity to reallythink outside the box.
And I feel like a lot of timeswe get stuck in this narrative
of like, well, if you can't beat work from nine to five or
eight to four, whatever thatlooks like, then you have to be
a stay at home.
You know, spouse, and that'snot really true.
(36:46):
So, as employers, I think wereally need to do a better job
of helping people seealternatives.
You know the thing for us.
I have a lot of young singleparents on my team, and so we
implemented full remote summers,and it's because I needed it.
My kids are 12 and 16, but Istill need it.
(37:07):
And so Memorial Day to Labor Day, we're 100% remote, and if you
need to come into the office,maybe to meet with a client or
whatever that looks like, likework it into your schedule, but
how?
And so I think that's the bigopportunity that we have is, as
a workplace, showcasing whatcould be, because a lot of times
, when we talk to smallbusinesses and they're like well
(37:28):
, this is what it's supposed tolook like, I'm like it's
supposed to look like thatbecause other people told you
that it's your business.
Make it look like what worksfor you and what works for your
team so you can hire people.
And when we talk to people,they're like I can't hire enough
people.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's like well, then you're going to have to get
creative on what those roleslook like and how you ask people
(38:03):
to show up, and so I think wehave a responsibility to really
be blame into the individual orthe woman or the person Right,
and then it places it on us as asociety, as employers, as you
know, colleagues, if you're not,you know in our position of
power, because the more we learnthat, oh shit, we're going
(38:28):
through the same stuff.
You know, even though I'm inventure and you're a nonprofit
and you're over here, we'reactually dealing with the same
struggles and we just perhapsjust need to be more
understanding and compassionatetowards one another and really
try to, like you said at thebeginning, vanessa, be curious
about learning from each other'sexperiences.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, fighting the system and not each other.
Like start there 100%.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
As we are heading into the election, it's hard not
to talk about.
You know, kind of, how thisimplicates this discussion on a
broader level, on a politicallevel, without you know asking
anybody to vote a certain way orto follow a certain thing.
It's just listening to howpeople talk about these issues.
(39:20):
That's all I ask, right?
It's to listen how people aredefining women, listen to how
people are putting people ondifferent boxes.
What resonates and what willlead us to your point, vanessa,
to then fix systems rather thaneach other or ourselves.
Because I think that thisconversation is so timely, as
(39:43):
everything that's evolving onthe political spectrum and it
can be very hateful and it'sactually hurting the way we get
along with our neighbors iscausing more harms in our
communities, is causing moredivision.
You know it might seem likesomething that's societal, but
it's actually being implementedin policies, right, that are
(40:03):
actually hurting women at work.
Women, if you're anentrepreneur, your ability to
access capital, you know yourability to build companies and
be empowered to do that if youwant to.
It's more than just a culturalshift.
(40:24):
It's more than just a trend.
It's something that we need tojust continue to have
conversations on and not be shyabout it, right?
Not say, well, it's notpolitically correct to do so.
Or well, even if the fear isthere, right, even if the fear
is there, we have to lean intowards it.
It's OK to feel uncomfortable.
It's actually part of feelinguncomfortable is because we're
(40:46):
growing it.
It's okay to feel uncomfortable.
It's actually part of feelinguncomfortable is because we're
growing, and one of my biggestconcerns is that, as a society,
we've gotten away from feelingthat discomfort, like we want to
just feel okay and we want tobe in our own bubble and we want
to build community just withpeople that think like us.
So I just challenge ourselvesto continue to have these
conversations, vanessa, intalking about this how can this
(41:09):
community support one anotherwhen we're navigating identity
challenges?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're reiterating some of the
getting curious, you know, justbeing able to hold on to nuance
and understand, you know,develop empathy, understand
where someone's coming from, sothat you can ultimately uplift
one another.
And I think if you reallyunderstand where someone's
(41:36):
coming from, there's lessjudgment, um, there's the desire
to really um, walk in theirshoes and help them, versus,
like, judge or cast criticism,or I think really obviously a
group of women coming togetherhere, everyone's sort of
invested in being part of acommunity and uplifting one
(41:58):
another.
So that's already you're doingthe work right there.
But if you can just deepen thatcuriosity with one another, I
think that's huge.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But if you can just deepen that curiosity with one
another.
I think that's huge.
I have to ask this because oneof the things that I have
noticed is, if we're talkingabout these identities and these
trends, right, when we'retalking about the soft girl and
trad wife, it's hard not tonotice the lack of diversity in
women of color being represented.
Women of color beingrepresented, it seems to be
(42:31):
primarily white women that arekind of leading this and and and
doing this.
Is that just me that just sawthat, Because this is like I'm
coming in late to this.
Is that something you've seen?
Is that something that you'veseen in practice?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I mean I, to be honest, I don't see a lot of
like soft girl like.
Given that I'm not on socialmedia, I don't necessarily take
in a lot of that information.
I think the origins of softgirl were rooted in something
that was women of colorinitially, but I think it was
sort of hijacked.
The soft girl stuff is like a.
(43:10):
It's really based in anaesthetic, um of like makeup,
looking a certain way andwanting, you know, this quiet
luxury and all these sort of GenZ, um types of styles, um and I
.
But I do think at the end ofthe day there's definitely a
bias and white women probably ummore present in that world, um,
or at least what are what whitewomen probably um more present
in that world, um, or at leastwhat are what white women being
covered more.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
You know there's also that part, the attention given
based upon my friendship circle,have seen it true that, um,
women of color are being hiredinto those roles and are not
being supported sufficiently inthose roles, kind of being the
(43:55):
first and leave them becauseit's not a sustainable
environment, and so I think thatthere's a real crisis there of
(44:15):
making sure that we createspaces that will sustain women
of color in leadership roles sothat they're not, you know
(44:38):
they're not the first and thelast A hundred percent, shannon,
and they don't have this extraincome, but that's truly just
like who they are, maybe whatthey're choosing to embody by
choice, or maybe they're beingled there, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
But how could we, as a community one, just get loud
and also like, support our peersand women about really owning
kind of the and and celebratingmultiple identities beyond kind
of getting curious, but that'ssomething I feel like the
(45:15):
society and media and politicsin a lot of ways wants to like
take from us as women is beingable to like, own and be loud
about like, owning the power ofand.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Oh for sure.
Well, I I think you know strictgender roles are damaging to
everyone.
They're damaging to men too,and I think women are
historically not encouraged toget mad.
But I think this is a moment toget really mad and to talk
openly about the anger of like.
(45:47):
Please don't pigeonhole me, or,you know, if someone's a stay
at home parent, like thatdoesn't only define me.
It doesn't mean anything.
Being able to really advocatefor oneself in whatever they're
deciding and know that if it'sbecause they're wanting to do
that, then you know being ableto own that and it doesn't have
to be rigid.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
That's so powerful.
I love that.
I love how you stated thatquestion, courtney, and it's
actually for me.
It's like you know, we want tobe intentional of also
recruiting more women into thenetwork.
And how do we recruit morewomen that you know immediately
network.
And how do we recruit morewomen that you know immediately,
maybe intentionally or you knowunconsciously, put us in a
bucket, right?
Oh that's, they're just a bunchof liberal ladies you know, and
(46:35):
I'm like, hey, we're here tosupport one another, right, um,
and we have different.
We're not a cult.
We have different beliefsystems, we have different, you
know, um, I'm just alwaysthinking about that, like, and I
want to put it on to the vastmembers how can we recruit more
members who might have notnecessarily the wrong impression
, but the idea that maybe thisis not a space, a safe space for
(46:59):
them, right, because they mightnot 100% identify with how we
stand and how we show up thelimited view that they have?
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Erica, it's Leah Courtney, thank you for saying
that.
So I very much have alwaysidentified as someone who does
not have children.
Like I made a very strongchoice when I was like a kid
myself that I was not going todo it.
It's not for me.
I think one of the major issueswith all of this is that
there's so many assumptions Likethat.
(47:32):
That's the problem, I think, isthat people make assumptions
like oh well, maybe you can'thave children or you hate
children.
Like none of those.
That's not true.
I want to be invited to yourkid's birthday party.
Like I want to be able tosupport.
But, like you know, there I havesome friends that just assume
that because I've made choicesthat I've been vocal about, that
(47:53):
I don't understand or I don'twant to do something, or I don't
want to be a part of it.
And I think across the board,regardless of which direction
you're going, if we could alltake a step back and like try to
remove some of thoseassumptions and go in and Erica,
you've said this before withcuriosity and trying to figure
out, like okay, why, why do Ifeel this way about your
(48:13):
decision?
Right, and I, I, I think we canall start there and it really
is just like putting yourassumptions in the trash can and
like moving on with your life.
And it's a richer life too,because you get to meet so many
more people and understand somany more points of views.
And I think social media justputs you in this box and you
assume so much more because ofit, because it's like right
(48:35):
there in your face all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
That tends to be the one thing I'm black and white
about is social mediaconsumption.
It's like less is better.
Speaker 7 (48:45):
Less is best.
Yeah, hey, I'm kind of gigglinghere at all the like cat
references, the word words,usage, curiosity and things like
that have been popping up andI'm just back here laughing.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, thesegirls are going to think I'm
crazy.
I'm back here giggling, butit's just kind of funny because
I'm a cat person and like I'mjust hearing all these cat
(49:10):
little cat things all over theplace.
But everybody's awesome and Ilove it when people expand their
minds.
And to me, labeling evenyourself which is why I joined
this call today, by the way isbecause of stuff I'm battling
within myself, labeling yourselfeven.
I mean, give yourself a break.
(49:31):
I've labeled myself to death,you know, because I'm a mom, I'm
, you know all these things.
I've been a career woman andI'm not.
You know you.
You kind of pin yourself downinto this little box and you
just go what?
You have no wiggle room forgrowth.
You have no wiggle room forgrowth and I want to challenge
(49:52):
everybody to give everybodyhumanity and grace and kindness
and not pin them down in a box.
Because I kind of feel sorryfor men right now man, because,
like women rock, we are blastingthe roofs off of businesses and
employers are just like whatare we doing?
These girls have, like,accelerated our revenue, what
you know in one year's time.
I mean it's just.
I think that we as women have ahuge opportunity to share what
(50:19):
we've been given to otheryounger women, and that's what
I'd like to do, I mean like amentorship here.
I would love to do somethinglike that to encourage, like
Emily talking a minute ago.
I would love to do somethinglike that to encourage, like
Emily talking a minute ago.
I feel like I would be reallygood to talk with her because I
think I could could hurt her ina constructive way.
But you know, I think y'all areawesome.
Thank you for speaking up.
(50:40):
Sorry to talk so long.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Okay, first of all, never apologize at a best
session for contributing, firstrule of thumb.
But thank you so much forsharing, shelly, and thank you
for offering to support Emily.
Yeah, I think that's why we'rehere right To like create not
just group support and peersupport, but one-on-one support.
So thank you for that.
Well, unfortunately, once again, we've run out of time, so I
(51:06):
want to be respectful ofeveryone's time.
But, vanessa, I definitely wantpeople.
First of all, we want to keepreading your article, so please
keep them going, keep us intouch with us and we're happy to
amplify them.
But how can best members inanybody listening to the podcast
later on get a hold of you andconnect with you?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, email.
I don't know if there's a.
If you blast out my emailVanessa Scaringi, a PhD at Gmail
, so I can write it in the chatand I have a sub stack.
So I'm new to the writing worldbut really enjoying it.
And if you subscribe you'll seemy articles quickly.
It's called A Side of Freud.
(51:45):
I love it.
I'm in the psychology field.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You can't tell, stop telling people that you're new
to writing because, based onyour Times article, it doesn't
cover that, so you don't need tosay that.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, not apologetically new, just getting
really into it now, reallyenergized by it, newly energized
by it.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Any last minute takeaways, Vanessa, for us.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
I think I just I'm so lucky that I got connected with
you.
I think just continue to dowhat you're doing.
It sounds like growing thisnetwork and building on that is
huge.
Women supporting women is sucha big deal and so important, so
you're already doing it more ofit.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwbestherco and applytoday.
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the invisible barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know, culturally we're sort of in a position to
be at odds with one another,which not always, but I think
that there's this tendency formen to be able to have more
identities and be more sort oflike, you know, yeah, men work
and have kids, like that doesn'tmean that their dad identity is
now and they're, you know,switching their hat off.
(00:58):
One thing I talk about intherapy a lot with clients is we
all have everything within us,you know, and so when we have a
part of our identity that's more, um, maybe I do like to be at
home with my kids and you know,how can we work towards
embracing those parts ofourselves versus being rejecting
or judging?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I identify right now as a trad wife because I don't
have a job and I'm at home likecooking for my husband, but then
also I am a childless cat ladybecause I don't have kids, I
have cats.
I'm like incredibly liberal butI think there's like this
politicalization of themovements and I'm just curious
about like the thoughts of the,you know, far right embracing
(01:44):
trad wives, or the leftembracing the single, you know,
childless cat lady, and likewhat that does and how that I
think is controlling thenarrative a little bit and not
allowing us to actually embraceeverything and whatever role you
want to be be.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
How could we as a community one, just get loud and
also like support our peersabout really owning multiple
identities?
I feel like society and mediaand politics in a lot of ways
wants to like take from us aswomen.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
In this episode, we're joined by Dr Vanessa
Scaringi, a licensedpsychologist and co-owner of
Calm Counseling in Austin, texas.
Dr Scaringi recently authoredan insightful article in Time
Magazine examining thepsychological effects of modern
identity trends like the softgirl and trad white movements.
Together we'll dive into thepsychological implication of
(02:43):
these trends, including thechildless cat lady stereotype
and the polarization of women'sroles.
We'll discuss how these labelsshape our identities, influence
societal expectations and affectour mental well-being, all
while also exploring strategiesfor challenging and redefining
these narratives.
For our guests' full bios andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco
(03:09):
forward slash podcast.
If you enjoy the episode, shareit with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
This episode is brought to youby Vesther Ventures, a peer
network of professional womenand investment fund for
women-led companies in the careeconomy and future of work.
To learn more, go towwwvestherco.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session with
(03:34):
Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
episode.
How are modern identity trendslike the soft girl, the trad
wife, cat lady movements shapingwomen's mental health and
self-perception?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting.
So I actually came across thesoft girl trend.
I think it was in a glamormagazine article, maybe the year
prior, and I had no, I'm not onTikTok, I'm not really on a lot
of social media so I didn'tknow what this was, and when I
read the piece I was just sortof dumbfounded, like wait a
(04:09):
minute, it's 2023.
At that point, what's happeninghere?
I was a women's studies majorand I'm old, and so that was in
2002, 2003, you know, and I feltlike at that point the tides
were turning and women werebecoming more rooted in, you
know, empowering themselves and,um, feeling like they could
(04:33):
have high achieving jobs andmake a lot of money, and so to
see this like trend picking upand gaining steam was really
terrifying.
Um, so I'm derailing from youractual question, but in terms of
how it's shaping women, I justI think I got concerned like
wanting to understand how it isshaping women.
In my therapy practice I do seea lot of the Gen Z folks leaning
(04:58):
on some of those, I guess, thementality of sort of a soft girl
, not necessarily embracing thatculture completely, but just um
, having a hard time.
You know there's a rise in Iwork in eating disorders.
There's a rise in eatingdisorders.
There's a rise in depressionand suicidality and all these,
um, in that generationspecifically, and I I was
thinking about, is there a linkbetween these two things?
(05:20):
Like, is there some kind of umpressure I'm not seeing in women
to stay at home, or I don'teven just mean not work, but
just not push themselves andsort of not?
I think there's all this debateabout young workers, so anyway,
but that's what led me tothinking more about these things
(05:40):
and as far as, how is itshaping women?
I think there's a mental healthimplication.
I think I, what I see is thatthat's happening.
Um, I think young women mightfeel a little fearful of pushing
themselves or achieving certainthings when there's sort of
this whatever cat cult like youknow that comment that was made
(06:01):
um, there's fear.
There's a lot of fear, a lot oftrepidation about what it means
to be able to push yourselfnowadays and get out of your
comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And also I think it has to do a lot with like your
atmosphere right.
Like a lot of our best membersare actually in the middle of
the country where you know, theenvironment in which you operate
, the environment in which youlive, can actually dictate a lot
of how you show up at work.
And you know I often before someof the members joined, leslie
(06:36):
and I were joking about some ofmy social media presence, which
is all over the place, you know.
But I get asked all the time, ortold all the time that you know
, given backhanded complimentsby people saying, well, you know
, if I, if I acted like you orif I showed up like you on
social media, I wouldn't be ableto do anything Right, because
I'm very politically engaged, wewould never tell men that I
(07:00):
have friends, ceos, cfos,partners that are always
engaging in politics, alwaystalking about why they support
one thing over the other.
Yeah, we just see that asnormal, but when women do it,
it's like, oh, my gosh.
Now I do tend to be a littlebit on the I say whatever it's
on my mind, but I just,unfortunately, I still see how
(07:20):
this perception of how you know,how we impose as a society,
things on women that make themthink, oh, I should act like
this or I should fit more onthis, based on what is most
acceptable in your environmentor in the culture that you're
currently residing.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, and there's a lot of fear involved of what
we'll have.
What will the repercussions beif I put myself out there?
It's very scary For sure.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For sure.
In your Time article youdiscuss how these identity
trends can create both comfortand constraint for women.
Can you elaborate on thepsychological impact of
embracing these identities andhow you know they can empower
but also limit women in somesense?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, I was thinking about in that piece the comfort
part.
I think is more sort of it's abottlenecking experience where
it might provide some instantcomfort, where there's avoidance
.
I think in the piece I talkedabout like treat culture and
(08:28):
sort of ignoring some of theother you know bigger things
that we might have on our plates, and I don't know if people are
familiar with treat culture.
There's nothing wrong with it.
But it's like the idea of oh,I've got a hard day, so I'm
going to like treat myself to ahard day, so I'm going to like
treat myself to, you knowwhatever, a coffee or I do that
(08:52):
spend $8 on a latte today, likethese things are expensive and
they feel really good and warmand yummy in the moment, but
over time what are we avoidingif we're not really tackling the
bigger, the bigger picture?
And then there's this otherside, part of like financially
as women, what are we?
How are we positioningourselves if we're ignoring how
expensive things have gotten orif, you know, we sort of hide
behind some of these otheravoidance strategies?
(09:14):
So I think in that regardthere's some comfort in the
short term, but ultimately Ithink embracing some of these
trends can be really damaging inthe longterm.
For you know how can you sustainyourself if you're avoiding it?
You know how, how, what happensif you're hiding behind some
kind of identity.
Or I think there was a piece onthe stay at home, stay at home
(09:38):
girlfriend trend and I think itwas in the Washington street
journal.
I think so, but just thefinancial impact of like.
You know, I don't know how manystay at home girlfriends there
really are, but there are a lotof influencers on social media
that portray themselves that way, who also, ironically, make a
lot of money from being oninfluencers on social media.
(09:58):
But you know, if you'redependent on other people for
your income and not you knowworking to provide for yourself,
how are you hurting yourselfultimately in the long run?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I'm actually I'm currentlyreading a book Cultish, I'm not.
Has anybody read that book?
You know, creating community,right, like sometimes we
identify with a trend orsomething because we desperately
crave community.
And you know, and I feel thatway, here I am bringing my bias,
(10:33):
but you know, I feel like thiscat lady movements.
I'm like hell yeah, I'm not inmy life and I'm actually not
necessarily a cat person, butnow I'm like I identify as a
childless cat lady.
You don't even know how to be abeautiful girl, but I think
it's more like I wanted acommunity, right, like, hey,
unapologetic women who aresaying what they need to say,
(10:55):
for whatever reason, and so Ifeel like sometimes, to your
point, the comfort is to createcommunity, to find some sense of
belonging.
I think it's super important aswell.
But long term, like I also haveto remind myself hey, you also
(11:17):
need to talk to women whodisagree with you and understand
why.
Let's talk about the trad wife.
I did not know anything aboutthis until Courtney and Jay and
Gabby brought this to me, and sois everybody familiar.
Raise your hand if you've reada little bit or saw the TikToks
or the.
I was like completely clueless.
But this is actually a ballerinabased on one creator that's a
(11:40):
ballerina farm, I believe verysuccessful, has created a very
successful brand, decided tolive more.
So the Trad Wife is traditional, like I literally had to look
it up because I was yeah, sotraditional wives, but meaning
you know, I'm going to live in afarm, I'm going to, you know,
race.
I think they have eightchildren.
I can't remember how manychildren.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I'm sure they've lost count too.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right, right, right, right, uh, but they, they live
off of the farm, but then theyalso create content and then now
they sell items and they'velike made millions and they have
she, they have she has likeeight million people or
something following her, um, herdad or I think it's her dad or
his dad also owned or owns jet,so there's also a lot of money
(12:25):
that they've had.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for, if you haven't beenfollowing this, this is again
somebody that very successfuland has kind of made a career
off of being this trend, thisidentity.
But recently there was anarticle I forget you guys are
going to have to help me, gabbyand Courtney here but there was
(12:46):
an article that kind of was veryjudgmental of her choices.
So, courtney, you want toelaborate on that?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, she had a I don't know if it was a
contributor or an editor fromthe Times come out to their farm
to do a piece on she and herfamily.
She thought the conversationwent really well and then, of
course, the piece aired andexploded and really like
pinpointed a singular identityof her life, um, which was the
(13:18):
much more traditional way ofliving versus like speaking
wholly about like what they'vecreated and they are.
She is very much like abusinesswoman and um, so just
kind of created this like reallydifficult narrative that she
felt wasn't fully encompassingand didn't at all expect that
(13:41):
the conversation was going toend up and air in that way, and
so it felt really burned by that, which I think leads to an
interesting point.
Like we as women, a lot oftimes maybe we identify as more
like traditional wives or momsand families, but it doesn't
mean that we can't be and dothese other things and own that
(14:03):
too.
And I think society I want tosay it was a woman that wrote
that article, gabby, I'm notsure, but even like sometimes
women to women can like try toput each other in a single box,
which is just so dangerous.
So I actually have followedValerie in a farm for a long
time and I really enjoy her as acreator and I think it's
(14:24):
amazing what she and her familyhave built and find a lot of
admiration for her.
But this article just in recentdays and conversation is really
blown up in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, and I think you know that that's where I was
going with my point.
It's like so in one way youhave the trad wife and then in
another one, you know you havethe nominee for vice president.
You know calling women whochoose some, you know whether
they choose or whatever, forwhatever reason, they don't have
(14:58):
children.
You know.
Because they don't havechildren, they can't be
productive members of societyand they're not contributing to
society and therefore theyshouldn't vote and all of this
stuff and the child cap ladymovement kind of takes form.
So my question is how can we aswomen you know what are the
implications of us as womenattaching ourselves so much to
(15:24):
one or the other, and then howwe as women need to be more
supportive and understanding andnot be not lashed out right at
the other just for choosing adifferent lifestyle?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think you're also talking about
something just more generally,even just how hard it is to have
discourse and to sit withpeople who disagree.
But, yes, as women, I thinkthere's an added component.
I remember, back in my collegeyears I think, there was a book
called the Mommy Wars and it wasabout stay-at-home moms versus
(16:01):
working moms.
And, um, you know, culturallywe're sort of put in a position
to um be at odds with oneanother, which not always, but I
think that there's this umtendency for men to be able to
have more identities and be moresort of like you know, yeah,
(16:21):
men, I'm using air quotes, buty'all can see me.
But men work and have kids.
Like that doesn't mean thattheir dad identity is now and
they're, you know, switchingtheir hat off.
And I think that for women,there's probably some fear base,
like I imagine that woman goingout to ballerina farms and
interviewing, feeling veryfearful of like what is this
(16:43):
going to mean if people likethis one, the Ballot Arena Farms
brand, like was it, is it goingto take us back?
Like I don't think there's.
I think there's a lot of fearpotentially.
And I also think that one thingI talk about in therapy a lot
with clients is we all haveeverything within us, you know,
(17:05):
and so when we have a part ofour identity that's more um,
maybe I do like to be at homewith my kids and you know how
can we work towards embracingthose parts of ourselves, versus
being rejecting or judging orum, and I think if we could
extend that sort of grace toothers, we could understand why.
(17:26):
You know, maybe there's a goodreason.
Someone's doing what they'redoing.
I think with the Tradwife brandor sort of trend, it's so
provocative and it's so likeit's also so clearly they're
making money from this, and sowhat they're promoting is also
like, um, obviously not whatthey necessarily do or believe.
(17:48):
Like I actually don't know muchabout the ballerina firms room,
but I was thinking about anotherone, um, and I wish that they
would just, if they could justsay openly like I make a lot of
money from this, that mightdisarm people so that they could
be more curious.
Um, but I think there's thislike you know, in the influencer
world, we want to believesomeone is just living their
whole life in the way thatthey're telling us, but the
(18:15):
reality is, I'm sure thatwoman's going to business
meetings.
I'm sure she's up to date onwhat new products they're
launching or whatever, and if wecould know more it would
actually be more helpful.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, 100%, and I think you nailed it right.
It's like even just having theconversation.
That's why this session was soimportant for us to have it,
because I really do think thatwe are at a crucial moment where
, you know, regardless of howyou feel about certain issues,
women's rights are being are atstake, right, we actually have
(18:43):
less rights that we did just afew years ago that our mother
grandmothers fought so hard for.
And I always say to people thatare like you know, I mean, I
think we're all pro life.
I mean who's who's anti, youknow?
But I always say to my friendswho are, you know, uncomfortable
(19:04):
with even saying the wordabortion, it's like, listen,
it's not about taking that rightaway from you If you don't want
to have one, or if you, youknow, you can believe whatever
religious belief you want tobelieve, but we can't impose it
on other people, right, and wehave to protect other people.
And then also, we're talkingabout privacy, all of these
things, but, but for me, Ialways take it very
(19:26):
intentionally to say, hey, it'sokay, I'm this way, I love
working, I think I'm a bettermom when I'm working, and I
think my girls will attest tothat, and you know, and but.
But I also respect women thatchoose to stay at home for
whatever reason, right.
And so how do we create moreconversations about being
(19:48):
supportive and understanding ofdifferent lived experiences, of
different you know women withdifferent backgrounds, just
because my experience may becompletely different than
somebody else's here in the room?
And we need to have empathy inthe room, in the safe room, to
have those conversations so thatwe can be even more supportive,
(20:10):
particularly, like I said, intimes like today when our rights
and women's contribution arebeing diminished at the national
level.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I mean, there's always the concern that I have
If women are at odds with oneanother, then we're not fighting
for things that are reallyimportant, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Exactly Right.
We're over here discussing thetrad wife and chalice when in
reality we should be talkingabout you know.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I mean it's all very interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
but yeah, I mean it's very interesting but yeah, yeah
, hi, I'm Leah, excuse me.
I think that everyone should bewhatever they want and I don't
care.
I identify right now as a tradwife because I don't have a job
and I'm at home like cooking formy husband, but then also I am
(21:02):
a childless cat lady because Idon't have kids, I have cats.
I'm like incredibly liberal,but I think there's like this
politicalization of themovements and I'm just curious
about like the thoughts of the,you know far right, embracing
trad wives, or the leftembracing the single, you know,
(21:22):
childless cat lady and like whatthat does and how that, I think
, is controlling the narrative alittle bit and not allowing us
to actually embrace everythingand whatever role you want to be
.
And I actually think this likealso plays into like this very
binary, you know, view of life,especially maybe on the, where
(21:44):
you just you have to be onething that gets, and that, to me
, gets in the way of like policywhen you're talking about, you
know, gay rights or trans kidsor abortion or whatever.
And I'm curious to know aboutthe thoughts that everybody has
about kind of how we've takenthis and made everything
political.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, and also how other people are defining what
we should be, and you're eitherhere or here as opposed to us,
right?
That's a great question.
What do you think, Vanessawives?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
being for men.
I think that men are sort ofperpetuating, I think, the I
forget what school it was, butsome speech.
Someone came out and talkedabout how women should be a
certain whatever.
Yeah, ascribing roles to women,and yeah, I think men are
(22:43):
perpetuating a lot of therhetoric around that.
I also think that you knoweverything being binary,
everything being like you'rehere, you're against me if you
believe one thing just there'sno progress that comes from that
.
And, unfortunately, I do thinkthat with social media, there's
(23:07):
a lot of that's just what getsclicks and there's a lot of
that's just what gets clicks andthere's a lot of incentive to
sort of stay in those very likedichotomized lanes.
And I don't know if it actuallylike as we're sitting here
talking, it sounds like we'reall sort of probably agreeing
that like we can agree todisagree.
There's space for nuance, butwhen you translate any of that
(23:28):
online, it's just like there'sattacking.
There's there is no space fornuance on online, which is
really scary, and that's whereso many people get their
messaging.
That's where so many.
That's just where people live.
I think there was a study abouthow many hours we spend online
a day and it's something likesix hours, so if that's where
(23:50):
you're spending all your days,yeah, you sort of think of the
world in these ways and it's notreality.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
So that actually leads to my next question
perfectly how can we, giveneverything we just talked about,
how can women maintain a strongsense of identity while facing
all of these societal pressures,whether you're in social media
or not?
And how do we combat conformingto roles that are defined by
(24:20):
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, I mean that's like a lifelong of therapy right
there.
But I think, ultimately,surrounding yourself with other
women who are uplifting and arecurious, rather than, you know,
combative or prescriptive, and Ialso think, really trying to
(24:44):
internalize, like I can beanything in any moment, like
maybe this is a phase of my lifewhere I'm doing more of X or
less of Y, but it doesn't haveto define me, and knowing that
that's okay and that I mean Ithink it's so much easier said
than done.
I think the surroundingyourself with other women helps
you sort of helps inoculateyourself to the rhetoric that we
(25:08):
can all be exposed to.
But I have friends who are, youknow, stay at home moms.
I have friends who work.
I have friends who are inbetween, like being able to come
together and support oneanother in those journeys and
know that none of that is areflection on me, like what
they're deciding to do withtheir lives is like that doesn't
necessarily affect me, unlessthey're telling me I'm wrong.
(25:28):
But I don't have a lot offriends that do that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You talked about the need for therapy, right, and I
know that, and we haven't in away, de-thismatize it, but not
have we really like.
How many women are you actuallyseeing that are reaching out
for therapy support, forprofessional support, and how
(25:55):
can they find it?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, so another area I'm quite biased in is finding
good therapy.
I mean, I think right nowthere's also we're sort of
inundated with I might get alittle on my soapbox, but a lot
of the VC backed therapy worlds,which is like BetterHelp.
I mean you can't listen to apodcast without being exposed to
(26:20):
a commercial for BetterHelp.
Inherently wrong with a lot ofwhat better help does.
But, um, I think there's thetendency for some of those
platforms to really reinforcethe idea that there's some that
we should be better, that weneed to, like, have a problem
and recover from it.
Um, and, and some of that'sjust reflected in, like they,
(26:43):
they give a lot ofquestionnaires about your
progress and your therapy andthings like that, which none of
that's inherently wrong, butwhen we're told that we need we
have problems that we need tofix, versus, like, being really
curious in a long-term kind ofcapacity, um, that's where I do
long-term therapy.
I do a lot of group therapy andI think real healing comes from
(27:03):
that kind of experience.
Um, so I, as far as, like, Ithink women might be more.
I mean, women are more likelyto reach out for therapy.
Um, it's a little less of astigma still heavily there,
probably dependent on where youlive.
I'm in Austin, very liberal Iyou can spit and hit a therapist
(27:24):
here, um, so I know it's verylike a normalized experience
here.
But gosh, you go do two hoursand I know it's not Um.
So, yeah, I think, uh,approaching if you are going to
go to therapy with, like how canI just use this time to be
curious about myself?
And you know, group therapy I'malso really biased about.
(27:45):
I think that's where it's justtransformative Um, I think a lot
of women, especially um, canfind themselves like re
stretching the limit on in termsof how they um can take in
people.
I'm just thinking about whatwe're talking about with nuance.
Um, group therapy is such aplace to build that capacity for
(28:07):
nuance because you can sit withpeople from different
backgrounds and know that you'reall there for the same reason
of trying to develop morecuriosity, empathy, healing, and
that's that can be reallyuplifting.
I think you would ask, like,what about where you can reach
out or find things?
Yeah, I mean, right now we'resort of inundated with a lot of
(28:28):
money being spent on advertisingfor therapy, and so I would.
I would turn to like the momand pop kinds of therapists in
your community, um, if possible.
I know there's barriers andaccessibility there, but ask
about sliding scale, um, thingsyou know being work with someone
to maybe try to get that needmet in a different way.
(28:51):
And it doesn't have to be iftheir fee is something that they
won't budge, and not to deteranyone from better help or
anything like that, but just becurious.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
You know, going back to something that you said about
letting other people define ouridentity and imposing that, and
that being primarily malesdoing that.
One of my biggest issues withthis is and even just this whole
conversation is that once again, we're focusing on fixing women
(29:20):
Right.
What do we need to do, you know, to fix ourselves as if there's
something wrong with us, whenin reality and to your point
earlier, when you say you know,we're so focused on having these
conversations, which, in my myargument is we should instead be
focusing on what leads women toquit the labor force in general
.
Right, and a lot of times hasto do with workplaces were never
(29:45):
designed with us in mind, andyou know, sometimes workplaces
are so rigid they don't have theflexibility that not just women
, but working parents, you knowcaregivers have to do, and so
you know I always I have like alove-hate relationship with the
fact that women are launchingbusinesses faster than our male
(30:05):
peers Latina, six times faster.
But I also know why, right, andit's because the corporate
setting doesn't work for us, andso we then have to be creative
and figure out how to bringadditional revenue to the home.
So I want to have thoseconversations, right, because
then that places theresponsibility on us as a
(30:27):
society and as a community tolook at workspaces, right, our
workspaces.
How can we make them moreflexible, more supportive for
the workers?
Right, not just the owners andemployers?
So I hope that one of thetakeaways for the VAS members
here is that you know, whenwe're having these conversations
(30:47):
, they're important to have andwe need to see, like, how do we
keep ourselves accountable, howdo we embrace other
personalities or other you knowidentities, if you will?
But also, how do we take thisback to the larger conversation
of like, what leads us to behavea certain way or to do certain
(31:07):
things?
I wish that the whole on thetrad wife my bias was.
You know, I am concernedsometimes on how much the
decision was made by women rightTo live a traditional life, to
be the wife, to have X amount ofkids, to do certain things.
If it was genuinely hers, thenI'm all for it, right, and I
(31:31):
hell, let me invest in you andlet me invest in your company
and whatever.
But sometimes I just feel likewe were led to those identities,
we're led to making some ofthose decisions.
So just want to encourage Vestmembers to keep that in mind, as
you continue like, as we havethese conversations and other,
to look at the broader pictureof how it's affecting us from a
(31:53):
societal perspective.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Does anyone have anyone in their lives that they
disagree with on these topics,Like are they fielding comments
about their own work or Ipersonally experienced it with
my sister, and it is not herchoice, so I just feel like an
(32:17):
entanglement of, like my stomachjust drops and I've seen her
become a shell of a person overthe last 15 years.
I get really emotional talkingabout it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, that's tough too, right.
That's something that I also inreading and educating myself on
.
On, again, the ballerina dealit's not her, so let's take the
persona or the.
It's just you know and I aminto cults recently, so not
saying that you know anything,it's a cult or anything, but
just how the psychology right ofwhat leads you again to to to
(32:57):
join certain groups, to, um,identify with certain identities
, um, and then you know,especially if it's somebody that
you love, like you want to help, you want to say something, but
then you know, especially ifit's somebody that you love,
like you want to help, you wantto say something, but then you
know that sometimes that justmakes it worse.
So what do you do?
Do we do?
Are you just supportive and letyou know whoever be, whoever
they need to be, or what is ourrole in that?
(33:20):
Or how would you coach us,vanessa?
How would you provide therapyto us if we're in that situation
?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's really hard.
Thank you so much for sharing I.
I think when there's a lack ofchoice for, you know, especially
with something so big andprofound as your career and your
, this big part of your identity, um, we do.
We lose passion, we lose, youknow, friends, we lose, start to
(33:48):
lose ourselves and, as far asyou know, um coaching anyone
around this, I was thinkingabout just how to help someone
regain the sense of choice.
Um, but it's also really hard.
I mean, we're literally talkingabout a time for women where
we're losing our, you know,freedoms and choices.
Um, and so just being someonethere to talk to without
(34:12):
judgment is a huge win, becausehopefully there is a time where
someone sort of can come out ofthat and regain some of the
feelings of choice orempowerment.
I think of having young kids.
I have two littles and you dofeel like you don't.
I mean choices just start to goout the window.
(34:33):
If I have to pick up one of mykids from school, I have to
cancel my clients for the restof the day.
There's just realities andhelping people to know that
ultimately, there's going to bea time that I'm going to move
away from that my kids are goingto be older.
I'm not going to have to runoff and pick them up and helping
(34:54):
them tolerate that.
Being a year to listen in thosemoments can be really impactful
.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Thank you so much for sharing, Emily.
I know that's tough.
If there's anything that we cando collectively to support you
during this time, even if it'sjust to listen without judgment,
please reach out one on oneduring the Vest sessions.
Whatever we need to do, whoelse wants to share?
Speaker 8 (35:22):
I wanted to add something really quickly to what
Vanessa said, and I thinkwhat's important is us
advocating for each other whenyou're in a position of power
and talking about it openly,what it could look like.
And so, like you know,throughout my career, my husband
(35:43):
was in the military and did aton of deployments and I was
raising two kids by myself butworking full time minutes.
And I was raising two kids bymyself but working full time.
And when we talk about likechildcare and how expensive that
is, and then how, like, leastflexible your schedule can be,
and so when I started in my rolenow at BBV, the thing I told my
board was like I need anextremely flexible schedule
because I have no other options.
I don't have family that livehere.
(36:03):
I'm a great fit for this roleand I want to do good, but I
need these other things.
And they were really on board,which was helpful.
But that also meant that when Ihad team members who were
struggling with it, we wouldtalk about it and I'd say, okay,
here's what I've done and beenin your situation, so there's a
lot of solutions.
So it doesn't always have tolook like the black or white,
(36:24):
like I have to stay home or Ican work, or like there's so
much of an opportunity to reallythink outside the box.
And I feel like a lot of timeswe get stuck in this narrative
of like, well, if you can't beat work from nine to five or
eight to four, whatever thatlooks like, then you have to be
a stay at home.
You know, spouse, and that'snot really true.
(36:46):
So, as employers, I think wereally need to do a better job
of helping people seealternatives.
You know the thing for us.
I have a lot of young singleparents on my team, and so we
implemented full remote summers,and it's because I needed it.
My kids are 12 and 16, but Istill need it.
(37:07):
And so Memorial Day to Labor Day, we're 100% remote, and if you
need to come into the office,maybe to meet with a client or
whatever that looks like, likework it into your schedule, but
how?
And so I think that's the bigopportunity that we have is, as
a workplace, showcasing whatcould be, because a lot of times
, when we talk to smallbusinesses and they're like well
(37:28):
, this is what it's supposed tolook like, I'm like it's
supposed to look like thatbecause other people told you
that it's your business.
Make it look like what worksfor you and what works for your
team so you can hire people.
And when we talk to people,they're like I can't hire enough
people.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's like well, then you're going to have to get
creative on what those roleslook like and how you ask people
(38:03):
to show up, and so I think wehave a responsibility to really
be blame into the individual orthe woman or the person Right,
and then it places it on us as asociety, as employers, as you
know, colleagues, if you're not,you know in our position of
power, because the more we learnthat, oh shit, we're going
(38:28):
through the same stuff.
You know, even though I'm inventure and you're a nonprofit
and you're over here, we'reactually dealing with the same
struggles and we just perhapsjust need to be more
understanding and compassionatetowards one another and really
try to, like you said at thebeginning, vanessa, be curious
about learning from each other'sexperiences.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, fighting the system and not each other.
Like start there 100%.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
As we are heading into the election, it's hard not
to talk about.
You know, kind of, how thisimplicates this discussion on a
broader level, on a politicallevel, without you know asking
anybody to vote a certain way orto follow a certain thing.
It's just listening to howpeople talk about these issues.
(39:20):
That's all I ask, right?
It's to listen how people aredefining women, listen to how
people are putting people ondifferent boxes.
What resonates and what willlead us to your point, vanessa,
to then fix systems rather thaneach other or ourselves.
Because I think that thisconversation is so timely, as
(39:43):
everything that's evolving onthe political spectrum and it
can be very hateful and it'sactually hurting the way we get
along with our neighbors iscausing more harms in our
communities, is causing moredivision.
You know it might seem likesomething that's societal, but
it's actually being implementedin policies, right, that are
(40:03):
actually hurting women at work.
Women, if you're anentrepreneur, your ability to
access capital, you know yourability to build companies and
be empowered to do that if youwant to.
It's more than just a culturalshift.
(40:24):
It's more than just a trend.
It's something that we need tojust continue to have
conversations on and not be shyabout it, right?
Not say, well, it's notpolitically correct to do so.
Or well, even if the fear isthere, right, even if the fear
is there, we have to lean intowards it.
It's OK to feel uncomfortable.
It's actually part of feelinguncomfortable is because we're
(40:46):
growing it.
It's okay to feel uncomfortable.
It's actually part of feelinguncomfortable is because we're
growing, and one of my biggestconcerns is that, as a society,
we've gotten away from feelingthat discomfort, like we want to
just feel okay and we want tobe in our own bubble and we want
to build community just withpeople that think like us.
So I just challenge ourselvesto continue to have these
conversations, vanessa, intalking about this how can this
(41:09):
community support one anotherwhen we're navigating identity
challenges?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're reiterating some of the
getting curious, you know, justbeing able to hold on to nuance
and understand, you know,develop empathy, understand
where someone's coming from, sothat you can ultimately uplift
one another.
And I think if you reallyunderstand where someone's
(41:36):
coming from, there's lessjudgment, um, there's the desire
to really um, walk in theirshoes and help them, versus,
like, judge or cast criticism,or I think really obviously a
group of women coming togetherhere, everyone's sort of
invested in being part of acommunity and uplifting one
(41:58):
another.
So that's already you're doingthe work right there.
But if you can just deepen thatcuriosity with one another, I
think that's huge.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But if you can just deepen that curiosity with one
another.
I think that's huge.
I have to ask this because oneof the things that I have
noticed is, if we're talkingabout these identities and these
trends, right, when we'retalking about the soft girl and
trad wife, it's hard not tonotice the lack of diversity in
women of color being represented.
Women of color beingrepresented, it seems to be
(42:31):
primarily white women that arekind of leading this and and and
doing this.
Is that just me that just sawthat, Because this is like I'm
coming in late to this.
Is that something you've seen?
Is that something that you'veseen in practice?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I mean I, to be honest, I don't see a lot of
like soft girl like.
Given that I'm not on socialmedia, I don't necessarily take
in a lot of that information.
I think the origins of softgirl were rooted in something
that was women of colorinitially, but I think it was
sort of hijacked.
The soft girl stuff is like a.
(43:10):
It's really based in anaesthetic, um of like makeup,
looking a certain way andwanting, you know, this quiet
luxury and all these sort of GenZ, um types of styles, um and I
.
But I do think at the end ofthe day there's definitely a
bias and white women probably ummore present in that world, um,
or at least what are what whitewomen probably um more present
in that world, um, or at leastwhat are what white women being
covered more.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
You know there's also that part, the attention given
based upon my friendship circle,have seen it true that, um,
women of color are being hiredinto those roles and are not
being supported sufficiently inthose roles, kind of being the
(43:55):
first and leave them becauseit's not a sustainable
environment, and so I think thatthere's a real crisis there of
(44:15):
making sure that we createspaces that will sustain women
of color in leadership roles sothat they're not, you know
(44:38):
they're not the first and thelast A hundred percent, shannon,
and they don't have this extraincome, but that's truly just
like who they are, maybe whatthey're choosing to embody by
choice, or maybe they're beingled there, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
But how could we, as a community one, just get loud
and also like, support our peersand women about really owning
kind of the and and celebratingmultiple identities beyond kind
of getting curious, but that'ssomething I feel like the
(45:15):
society and media and politicsin a lot of ways wants to like
take from us as women is beingable to like, own and be loud
about like, owning the power ofand.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Oh for sure.
Well, I I think you know strictgender roles are damaging to
everyone.
They're damaging to men too,and I think women are
historically not encouraged toget mad.
But I think this is a moment toget really mad and to talk
openly about the anger of like.
(45:47):
Please don't pigeonhole me, or,you know, if someone's a stay
at home parent, like thatdoesn't only define me.
It doesn't mean anything.
Being able to really advocatefor oneself in whatever they're
deciding and know that if it'sbecause they're wanting to do
that, then you know being ableto own that and it doesn't have
to be rigid.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
That's so powerful.
I love that.
I love how you stated thatquestion, courtney, and it's
actually for me.
It's like you know, we want tobe intentional of also
recruiting more women into thenetwork.
And how do we recruit morewomen that you know immediately
network.
And how do we recruit morewomen that you know immediately,
maybe intentionally or you knowunconsciously, put us in a
bucket, right?
Oh that's, they're just a bunchof liberal ladies you know, and
(46:35):
I'm like, hey, we're here tosupport one another, right, um,
and we have different.
We're not a cult.
We have different beliefsystems, we have different, you
know, um, I'm just alwaysthinking about that, like, and I
want to put it on to the vastmembers how can we recruit more
members who might have notnecessarily the wrong impression
, but the idea that maybe thisis not a space, a safe space for
(46:59):
them, right, because they mightnot 100% identify with how we
stand and how we show up thelimited view that they have?
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Erica, it's Leah Courtney, thank you for saying
that.
So I very much have alwaysidentified as someone who does
not have children.
Like I made a very strongchoice when I was like a kid
myself that I was not going todo it.
It's not for me.
I think one of the major issueswith all of this is that
there's so many assumptions Likethat.
(47:32):
That's the problem, I think, isthat people make assumptions
like oh well, maybe you can'thave children or you hate
children.
Like none of those.
That's not true.
I want to be invited to yourkid's birthday party.
Like I want to be able tosupport.
But, like you know, there I havesome friends that just assume
that because I've made choicesthat I've been vocal about, that
(47:53):
I don't understand or I don'twant to do something, or I don't
want to be a part of it.
And I think across the board,regardless of which direction
you're going, if we could alltake a step back and like try to
remove some of thoseassumptions and go in and Erica,
you've said this before withcuriosity and trying to figure
out, like okay, why, why do Ifeel this way about your
(48:13):
decision?
Right, and I, I, I think we canall start there and it really
is just like putting yourassumptions in the trash can and
like moving on with your life.
And it's a richer life too,because you get to meet so many
more people and understand somany more points of views.
And I think social media justputs you in this box and you
assume so much more because ofit, because it's like right
(48:35):
there in your face all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
That tends to be the one thing I'm black and white
about is social mediaconsumption.
It's like less is better.
Speaker 7 (48:45):
Less is best.
Yeah, hey, I'm kind of gigglinghere at all the like cat
references, the word words,usage, curiosity and things like
that have been popping up andI'm just back here laughing.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, thesegirls are going to think I'm
crazy.
I'm back here giggling, butit's just kind of funny because
I'm a cat person and like I'mjust hearing all these cat
(49:10):
little cat things all over theplace.
But everybody's awesome and Ilove it when people expand their
minds.
And to me, labeling evenyourself which is why I joined
this call today, by the way isbecause of stuff I'm battling
within myself, labeling yourselfeven.
I mean, give yourself a break.
(49:31):
I've labeled myself to death,you know, because I'm a mom, I'm
, you know all these things.
I've been a career woman andI'm not.
You know you.
You kind of pin yourself downinto this little box and you
just go what?
You have no wiggle room forgrowth.
You have no wiggle room forgrowth and I want to challenge
(49:52):
everybody to give everybodyhumanity and grace and kindness
and not pin them down in a box.
Because I kind of feel sorryfor men right now man, because,
like women rock, we are blastingthe roofs off of businesses and
employers are just like whatare we doing?
These girls have, like,accelerated our revenue, what
you know in one year's time.
I mean it's just.
I think that we as women have ahuge opportunity to share what
(50:19):
we've been given to otheryounger women, and that's what
I'd like to do, I mean like amentorship here.
I would love to do somethinglike that to encourage, like
Emily talking a minute ago.
I would love to do somethinglike that to encourage, like
Emily talking a minute ago.
I feel like I would be reallygood to talk with her because I
think I could could hurt her ina constructive way.
But you know, I think y'all areawesome.
Thank you for speaking up.
(50:40):
Sorry to talk so long.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Okay, first of all, never apologize at a best
session for contributing, firstrule of thumb.
But thank you so much forsharing, shelly, and thank you
for offering to support Emily.
Yeah, I think that's why we'rehere right To like create not
just group support and peersupport, but one-on-one support.
So thank you for that.
Well, unfortunately, once again, we've run out of time, so I
(51:06):
want to be respectful ofeveryone's time.
But, vanessa, I definitely wantpeople.
First of all, we want to keepreading your article, so please
keep them going, keep us intouch with us and we're happy to
amplify them.
But how can best members inanybody listening to the podcast
later on get a hold of you andconnect with you?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, email.
I don't know if there's a.
If you blast out my emailVanessa Scaringi, a PhD at Gmail
, so I can write it in the chatand I have a sub stack.
So I'm new to the writing worldbut really enjoying it.
And if you subscribe you'll seemy articles quickly.
It's called A Side of Freud.
(51:45):
I love it.
I'm in the psychology field.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You can't tell, stop telling people that you're new
to writing because, based onyour Times article, it doesn't
cover that, so you don't need tosay that.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, not apologetically new, just getting
really into it now, reallyenergized by it, newly energized
by it.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Any last minute takeaways, Vanessa, for us.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
I think I just I'm so lucky that I got connected with
you.
I think just continue to dowhat you're doing.
It sounds like growing thisnetwork and building on that is
huge.
Women supporting women is sucha big deal and so important, so
you're already doing it more ofit.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwbestherco and applytoday.
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