From Detroit to the Army: Ray Brennan's Journey

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Ray Brennan's journey through mid-century America captures an era when neighborhood connections formed the bedrock of community life. Growing up in Detroit during the 1940s and 50s, Ray paints a vivid picture of Catholic parish life, neighborhood games, and the close-knit families that shaped his worldview. His stories of attending Detroit Catholic Central High School reveal how education and athletics molded young men of his generation, creating bonds that would last a lifetime.

The heart of Ray's narrative revolves around family traditions, particularly the cottage at Rondo Park in Canada. This summer retreat became the center of Brennan family gatherings, where Ray personally built a basketball court that drew friends and neighbors together for impromptu games. His description of these summer days evokes a simpler time when personal connections weren't mediated by technology but forged through shared experiences and physical proximity.

Military service marks another chapter in Ray's life, from his comedic account of consistently failing blood pressure tests to his eventual stations at Fort Benjamin Harrison and Fort Bragg. It was during this period that Ray met his wife Loretta, beginning a relationship that would span over six decades. His amusing tale of following her home after a wedding reception "to make sure she got there safely" reveals the courting rituals of a bygone era.

Perhaps most remarkable is Ray's pivotal role in establishing Thomas Cooley Law School alongside his brother Tom. His firsthand account of transforming historic buildings—including the innovative conversion of a 14-story structure into a 10-story facility with higher ceilings—demonstrates how practical problem-solving and relationship-building contributed to creating an enduring educational institution. This portion of his story illustrates how ordinary individuals can contribute to extraordinary legacies through dedication and ingenuity.

The emotional highlight comes when Ray recounts recovering his grandfather's fire chief watch in Kingston, Ontario—a tangible connection to his family's past that had been lost for generations. This poignant moment underscores the enduring importance of heritage and memory in shaping personal identity.

What will you discover about your own family's journey through the generations? Listen now to gain perspective on how everyday choices and relationships create legacies that transcend time.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Today is Tuesday, september 23rd 2025.
We're talking with Ray Brennan,who served in the United States
Army.
So good afternoon, ray Goodafternoon Bill.
All right, so let's start outsimple.
When and where were you born?

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I was born in Detroit , michigan, at 10311 Morley
Avenue.
That was our home house and Iwas born in my parents' bedroom.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Oh, so no, hospital for you, no hospital.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
No Matter of fact, my older sister was born in the
first house in the same area,but my folks had, in 29, had,
lost their home.
Actually, they had always paidfor the payment every month and

(01:57):
then found out that the ownerthey were doing on a land
contract and so they found outthat he wasn't paying the oh
goodness.
So they lost everything thatthey put into it and they found
this other home about eight,nine blocks away.

(02:19):
Mm-hmm.
And so they bought that, and sothey bought that, and we lived
in there until, oh, 1959, Ithink.
Oh so you grew up then on thatstreet.
I grew up there went to school,epiphany Parish, and all five of

(02:41):
us went to Epiphany and ofcourse that was our marriage,
our school, and Epiphany went tothe eighth grade.
So everybody had to find a highschool and my oldest brother,
terry, went to Detroit CatholicCentral, went to Detroit

(03:04):
Catholic Central and I think hestarted in 40, was it 40, 45, 44
maybe?
Okay.
Anyways, because he was in theservice and my brother Tom, he

(03:24):
went in 47, and then I camealong in 55.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
So they laid the groundwork for you then.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Tom was eight years older than I am and Terry was 10
.
Okay, and I have a sister inbetween us, sally Joan, and she
just died.
She was 90 years old.
Oh, and she was born on the31st of May 31, 32, something

(03:58):
like that.
Okay, so, anyways, and then myhead came along and my younger
sister was born in 42.
And there was a little storyabout that, because my cousin,
jack Brennan, was in the, he wasserving in the Naval Academy

(04:31):
and he got married during hissenior year and my folks were
invited and according to mymother she said they were so
excited about that marriage andstuff that she got pregnant.

(04:54):
So my baby sister was born sixyears after I was.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
So it sounds like the kids were all pretty spread out
then.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
My older two were Terry and Tom, were two years,
maybe two and a half years apart.
Okay.
Then my sister was another, Idon't know three, four years
behind that.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
And then I was 10 years behind my oldest brother
and eight years behind my andfour years behind my sister.
Uh-huh.
So, and then I'm six yearsolder than my oldest son, so it
was all spread out Right Now.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
I'm assuming you guys didn't really like play
together, then I mean you kindof were.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, it was interesting because Brother Tom
was.
He loved games and he wouldinvent games for the
neighborhood.
Oh, okay, and one of them was,I don't know, in those days we

(06:14):
had rubber guns and he made arubber gun.
That was a machine rubber gun,in other words, it shot about
five or six.
And of course, in those days webought rubber tires and we cut
them down and that was theirelastic for those things.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Oh, you could really hurt somebody with that, so it
was.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, there was.
The longer the rifle, the morest it hit.
Yeah.
So, anyways, he invented a gameand he said he captured the
machine gun and he'd hide themachine gun and then all the

(07:01):
neighbors would be looking forthe machine gun and that was a
lot of fun.
And, as a matter of fact, thechurch there was a I don't think
it's there anymore, it's aMethodist church that was around
, you know about a block away,and the minister I remember his

(07:25):
name, oliver and Justine.
Oliver was my age, so you knowand they had a little lot next
door to their house and we'd godown there and play touch
football and stuff like that.

(07:58):
Anyways the church had this.
It was a building, it was awooden building and they had a
basketball court in there andthey had all their events there.
Okay, and there was a walkwaybetween that and the church, but
it was a covered walkway.

(08:18):
So, anyways, my brother thoughta great place to head and that
is on the top of that roof.
Oh no, and that was quite adeal.
But in my neighborhood we had alot of boys my age and right

(08:44):
across the street was the Bolandfamily and Mike Boland was my
age and he went to Epiphany, andthen we had Dave Davies, a few,
a few homes down the street,and then we had Bill Steen and

(09:05):
you know, all in one block andthen we had on the preceding
block we had Joe Giles and thenon the street behind us the
violin and Charlie Robinette hadhe had he was he was part of

(09:31):
that group and Carl Wilson wason that street.
And then the Hart family was onthat street, right in the corner
, and the Harts had eight kidsthese are all Catholic families
and the Harts had eight kids.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
These are all Catholic families.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
They're all well, the Harts were Catholic, but Davies
and Steen and Robinette andWilson were Protestant, okay,
though most of them went to thechurch right there.
So we're all pretty muchchurch-going people, you know.

(10:09):
Oh yeah, and on that streetthere was the Foley family, and
Dick Foley was a year ahead ofme, but they were all Biffany
people was a year ahead of me,but they were all Biphany people
and he had a brother, BrotherMike, and I'm forgetting, but my

(10:37):
brother Tom was friends withhis brothers.
So they all sort of had kidsthat matched up, so the
neighborhood was kind of a youknow, it was good old days,
really, because everybody kneweach other, right you?

Speaker 1 (10:51):
didn't have to go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, we didn't have to go and walking distance all
over the place.
Yeah, yeah, and the drugstorewas the guy was, he was a
Catholic too and he was his namewas Popsadlow.

(11:13):
We always called it Pods, andthat was kind of a neighborhood
gathering and all the kids, youknow my parents, say, where are
you going?
I'm going down to Pods.
You know, they knew where I wasgoing and you know pretty much
everybody's going to be thereand so that was a good time and

(11:36):
a good period of time for me.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
It sounds like a great place to grow up.
I'm curious could you tell me alittle bit about your parents,
about your mom and your dad?

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, my dad.
He was born in Detroit and hisparents were born in Kingston,
Ontario, and so they came over,probably in 1890-something, but

(12:13):
the whole family was born inDetroit.
My uncle they call him PJ hewas Patrick James and of course
my grandfather's name was JamesVincent, so that's where the
James come from and that's mymiddle name, James.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, Irish family right Huh Irish.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Irish family.
Oh yes, and matter of fact, mygrandmother's name was Devlin,
and that's pretty Irish too.
Yes, yes, it is.
And both of those, theirparents, came right from Ireland
and settled in Kingston,ontario.

(12:55):
Okay, and matter of fact,laurie and I went to Kingston
and found a lot of the stuff,and the church is still there,
beautiful church.
Oh, and so, anyway, we found alittle bit of our history, lot
of the stuff, and the church isstill there, beautiful church.
And so, anyway, we found alittle bit of our history, and

(13:18):
so that was fun.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
So, anyway, that was there.
So what did your mom do?
What was it?
You know how was she?

Speaker 2 (13:41):
My mother.
My mother worked for Ford MotorCompany, okay, and she was in
the office where the vicepresident was there and Ford was
there, so she knew Ford prettywell some people would say the
secretaries run the companieswell it was.
And she took what do you callit?

(14:05):
Shorthand, shorthand.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Oh, she could do that real good.
And, my matter of fact, fordwas so impressed when my folks
got engaged.
Engaged, he gave my mother aride in one of the boats what do

(14:29):
they call them?
The big?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Oh, the yacht.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, no, not the yacht, but the freighter.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Oh, oh the big boats, yeah, the Ford freighter, yeah,
so she got to.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know where they went, but she got to and I
remember my dad had sent herflowers and stuff.
It was really neat and so,anyways, when she got back she
got her sister a job.
Actually, she got her futuresister-in-law a job and her name

(15:09):
was Betty McGurn and BettyMcGurn was part of that group
and my Aunt, gertrude, was alsoa member of the Ford company, so
there was a lot of Ford Fordfamily Ford background yeah, Now

(15:30):
is that where?
your dad worked, then my dadworked, I'm trying to think he
worked for I think that thefirst job I can recall was he
worked for Studebaker, and healso worked for the Secretary of

(16:00):
State from Michigan, oh, and sohe got a little bit in politics
there.
But and they're you know, mygrandmother and my grandfather
and most of their kids wereDemocrats, but my dad was a

(16:21):
Republican.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
But that made for some interesting holiday meals.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Well, they never really argued or anything but it
was just.
And the newspaper.
There was two newspapers.
Actually there were threenewspapers in Detroit Detroit
News, free Press and DetroitTimes.
And the Detroit Times was aconservative paper so my dad

(16:50):
would buy that paper and theFree Press.
It was kind of in the middle alittle bit and the news was
pretty much democratic.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.

(17:12):
And so that was interesting.
My grandmother and grandfatherhad a home on Helen Avenue.
I believe it was had a home onHelen Avenue.
I believe it was only about twomiles from the island.

(17:35):
Belle Isle Belle.
Isle, belle Isle, okay, and so,as children in the area, I said
Belle Isle was the place to go.
Yeah.
And I got pictures of my uncleskating on the pond in Belle
Isle and stuff like that.
And when Lori and I got marriedwe went over to their house

(18:08):
married.
You know, we went over to theirhouse and my Uncle Jim and my
Aunt Anne and my grandmother wecalled her Miney and after the
meeting Laurie asked me.
He says well, when did Jim andAnne get married?
I says they didn't marry theirbrother and sister.
So they always took care of herand in those days the family

(18:35):
would go to.
They always went over to CanadaI'm trying to think of the
original site, but anyways, theyended up at Rondo Park, which
is about there's a couple ofsmall cities near Ridgetown and

(18:59):
Blenheim and not too far fromthe other.
Anyways, yeah, and in thosedays to get to the cottage it
was quite a trip.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Not as easy as it is today.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, the only way to get there was Highway 3.
I don't know if you ever heardof that.
No, highway 3 went along thelake and back and around, so it
was probably a three-hour tripfrom Detroit.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
No tunnel or bridge at this point.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Well, we had the tunnel and the bridge were both
there.
I think the bridge went in.
I'm trying to think 28, I think.
Oh, so it's been there for awhile.
And the tunnel was even olderthan that.
We always liked to take thebridge.
Right.
But the east side of the familyall took the tunnel because that

(20:09):
was the closer to go back.
Right, and so, anyways, thefamily finally found this place
in Rondo Park, finally foundthis place in Rondo Park, and my
uncle, pj, always rented acottage.

(20:31):
Every year the same cottage,and I don't know how many years
he had it.
And so we would.
You know, when we went there,we would visit him, and my
parents would always try to renta cottage there for two weeks

(20:53):
and that was a good time and Igot a picture of myself.
My parents got a picture ofmyself the first time I stood up
.
Oh, but I happened to be in thebathtub.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Oh, no yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
So I start naked and I'm standing up All your glory.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
They took the picture , like parents will do.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
So they always thought it was cute and I lived
with it.
Matter of fact, I still got thepicture and my brothers I think
both of them had.
There was pictures of brothersand sisters.

(21:42):
It was all kinds of pictures ofRondo Park.
Oh yeah, this was like yourannual trip, yeah and the Rondo
Park and it went through thewhole family.
Matter of fact, my mother was aSullivan and her brother went,

(22:05):
sister-in-law and matter of fact, back to Ford.
The sister-in-law worked atFord.
My mother introduced her to herbrother.
Oh, and they got married.
That's how it works.
It worked well.
That's how it works, it workedwell.
Of course, the building bearingground was Mount Olivet.

(22:36):
The west side was HolySepulcher.
It was huge.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
So let's go back a little bit.
We were talking about schooland how you ended up at Detroit
Catholic Central.
You kind of have a legacy there.
Did a lot of the kids from yourneighborhood go to Detroit
Catholic Central then?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
We had, as a matter of fact, one of my best friends,
bill Riley, and Bill Riley hada nickname called Buster and
Buster was called Bus and hismother called him Bus, so
everybody called him Bus.

(23:22):
You know Bus Riley and hebecame my best man.
So we knew each other for yearsand years and always been a
good friend, and theneighborhood got together.

(23:42):
A lot of the guys got togetheras we got older and Epiphany had
an outdoor basketball court andall the neighbors would show up
generally on a Sunday afternoonand play basketball.
Oh yeah, basketball you know ohyeah and uh, there was.

(24:04):
There was another thing where weuh, uh, we shot, uh um foul
shots for money and and and youwould shoot so many foul shots

(24:24):
and the other guy had tried tobeat it.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
If he didn didn't, you got your dime or whatever it
was.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
So they always played that and then they played the
game and it was a good time.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Sounds like a great time.
So how was high school for you?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
High school.
As I say, I went to school withBus Riley and Pat McSorley and
Ron Broadley.
I think that was the only threeor four of us that went from

(25:05):
Epiphany and Ron Bradley had anolder brother that went there
and a lot of times his olderbrother was a senior when we
were freshmen so we always got aride with him.

(25:28):
So that was kind of neat, Right, and to get to Catholic Central
on the bus I had to take theWyoming bus and transferred to
an auto drive bus and then theauto drive bus went past the

(25:50):
school and the school was 6565West Auto Drive.
I know exactly where it's at.
So, anyways, and right down thestreet was the girls Mercy High
School, okay, so a lot of theguys and girls knew each other,

(26:15):
so it was a pretty pretty neattime.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
So Detroit Catholic Central was a boys school then
All boys, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
And still is.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Oh, I did not know that.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
And it's located in Novi right now, beautiful campus
, and we've been there severaltimes.
And, the matter of fact, thefootball stadium was named after
an old Epiphany Parish guynamed Father Elmer, huh Elmer.

(26:51):
Father Elmer.
Oh okay, father Elmer, andFather Elmer and my brother Tom
and his brother were all CubScouts together.
Oh okay, so that was kind of aneat connection.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
That is interesting.
Now did you play sports?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I played basketball, okay, and though I never played
in grade school, so in highschool I said, well, I'll go off
the team.
I had no knowledge of what thehell basketball was about.

(27:36):
So I remember the first time Igo out and make a layup.
You know, and I bang, you know,throw the ball and the coach
says what the hell was that?
Anyways but it caught on.
I really started loving thegame.
Yeah.
And I played, and played, andplayed and finally made the

(28:01):
junior varsity team.
Mm-hmm.
And I made the senior team.
I was mostly a benchwarmer, butI got a letter.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, you suited up.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
So that was neat.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Now, so was the Detroit Catholic Central.
Were they the Shamrocks,Shamrocks?

Speaker 2 (28:20):
That's why I got the Shamrock flag out there.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, I was going to say.
Every time I go by your house,ray, I see that that's the
Shamrock flag, yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
And of course I do a lot of Shamrocks in my email.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yes, yeah.
So what year did you graduate?

Speaker 2 (28:36):
I graduated in 1955.
Okay, and we were the firstclass through that building and
we were the first class throughthat building.
So we started in 51, inSeptember of 51, and graduated
in June 55.
Okay, and so we were the firstclass to go all the way through
that school.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
So you christened the whole thing for four years.
Yeah, yeah, that's really neat.
So what did you do aftergraduation?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
neat.
So what did you do aftergraduation?
After graduation, well, theyear I graduated 1955, that was
a year my mom and dad bought alot.
Well, they didn't buy it.
They leased the land at RondoPark.
And they leased the land Ithink it was a 40-year lease,

(29:32):
yeah and so they built thiscottage.
My dad pretty much designed it.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Because it was a three-bedroom cottage and you
know, and it had.
One of the things it had was aporch on the side, screened-in
porch.
My dad loved that porch.
He went out on Sunday afternoonand he'd fall asleep.
So it was neat, yeah, and so,anyways, my mother just loved

(30:08):
that cottage and until she diedshe was going there all the time
.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, probably great memories and just a really nice
place to be.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, the original cottage where my uncle, PJ, was.
The shoreline was justbeautiful.
It's sand all the way in.
You could walk up to your kneesand it was beautiful.
Well, where PJ finally built acottage where my parents were,

(30:46):
there was a lot of rock stonynot rock.
And so the beach wasn't quiteas nice, but you could walk in
up to your knees and dive in.
It was a lot deeper and dive inyou know it was a lot deeper,
yeah, so, and that way it wasNate, you didn't have to wade

(31:09):
out to swim.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
And that cottage, as you say.
I was playing basketball a lotin those days and I built a
court right behind the and weput in I think it was a 24 by 24
slab of cement, uh-huh, whichwe mixed our own cement and two
of my buddies, and, matter offact, when we first went there

(31:51):
we had a bunch of guys and we'dmove a lot of sand, all with
shovels, you know, and wesmoothed it out and then we made
this court and I had a friendnamed Jerry Serpolowski and his
dad was a policeman and the dadfound some posts.

(32:19):
Yeah.
And he gave them to us and Itook the post and I had them all
welded together so that thebasket would be about six feet
away from the original post andour friend Morley Avenue, right

(32:45):
behind us was a gas station andthe guy that ran the mechanic he
was a World War II veteran and,matter of fact, he drove a lot
of motorcycles during theparades and stuff.

(33:05):
So anyways, he welded thisthing all together and I rented
a trailer and we went up and putthis thing in and I dug a hole.
I was four by four.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
And at least four feet deep, four, yeah, and at
least four feet deep.
And we put the thing in justfilled with cement, uh-huh, and
until this day it's there, andit's not moved it hasn't done.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
You can still go shoot some hoops there, huh yeah
.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Matter of fact, we would have Sunday afternoon
games.
Up there, and right next to ourcottage was the guy at cottage
and ed guyette was a guy.
He's a party guy, you know hejust every saturday he'd he'd
have all his buddies over andthey'd He'd have all his buddies

(34:08):
over and they'd sing songs allnight long.
Anyway, Sunday afternoon therewas a bunch of guys who knew how
to play and they'd all getaround and we'd have games of
basketball.
Wow that sounds like a lot offun, so it was a lot of fun, so
it was a lot of fun, yeah, andthen I had my friends would all

(34:28):
come over and I'd have, I'd stayat my place, and then so it was
neat, yeah, and we had two guysthat played college ball, and
so we're pretty good.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
So you put this all together after high school?
Then yes, that's when yourparents built the cottage.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, well, yeah, Because it was the year I
graduated.
I spent most of that summerpainting the cottage.

(35:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
They put you right to work Outside painting and doing
some yard work and stuff likethat.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
that summer painting the cottage, yeah, they put you
right to work Outside paintingand you know, and doing some
yard work and stuff like that.
So did you go to college thatfall, then that's interesting

(36:05):
because I had registered for theUniversity of Detroit and 1958,
my dad died and I had, and atthat time everything just
changed.
Yeah.
And I was.
As a matter of fact, my motherand I and my younger sister were

(36:26):
the only ones left at the home,and so I had to help with the
bills, so from 55 to 1958,though 55,.
No, I had gotten a job rightthe first summer or whatever.

(36:51):
Okay, yeah, matter of fact, thecompany was Unique Engineering,
uh-huh, and my and I had somepretty good graphic, yeah,
talents.
You know, in those days, you,you put everything on paper.

(37:11):
There's no computers.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Right, no computer-aided drafting.
Back then it was all on likeonion skin paper is there's no
computers.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Right, no computer-aided drafting.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
back then it was all on like onion skin paper is what
they called it.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yeah, yeah, it was, and so I was there for a while,
got laid off and then and thisis between the, you know,
between 55 and 58.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Okay, and then you had applied to the school, but
then your father passed away.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, I applied before, okay so, but my sister
was after me, yeah, so okay.
But anyways so, but anyways so.

(38:02):
Eventually I got a friend.
You know, my dad was stillalive when I got a job at
Detroit, Edison Okay.
And I think he had a connectionor whatever, and though I don't
know if it helped much, but Igot in and, as a matter of fact,

(38:28):
I started out in graphic artsdepartment and in the graphic
arts department I was a typesdepartment, and in the graphic
arts department I was atypesetter.
And a handset type.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, and you had to, everything had to be tight and
yeah.
Yeah, I was talking about.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, there was.
You know you had to lock thethings in and you take prints on
a roll over the.
Yeah, the platen, yeah, yeah,and so it was all done by hand
and I remember some of thoseguys that I knew in those days

(39:13):
and the friendship justdisappeared after a while.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
How long were you at Detroit, edison?

Speaker 2 (39:21):
I was at Detroit Edison.
I got drafted.
But they did mapping and ifsomebody bought a lot somewhere
in the suburbs, you know theywanted to know what the, the uh,

(39:41):
uh, the address of the street'sgoing to be.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
So we gave them.
You know we, we knew thenumbers and stuff.
And I says well, how do youlike this number?
And I, you like this number andthat's the number they had so
that was that was kind of neatand from there I always like to
build stuff and I pretty muchself taught.

(40:11):
And, matter of fact, the firstthing I bought on I think it
might have been on on what doyou call it when you buy
something on?

Speaker 1 (40:27):
time.
Oh yeah, with credit.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Credit, yeah, and I bought this beautiful saw and a
big heavy thing.
I still got it and it's.
I think I paid $300 for it andI just love that thing.

(40:54):
And I built my sister a.
What A bedroom outfit.
Oh, a bedroom outfit, a dresser.
A dresser and stuff A big thing.
I had nothing about it, but Iread books and that stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
You got it all figured out, I figured it out.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
And I don't know what happened to that.
I think they sold it.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
So what year did you end up getting drafted then?

Speaker 2 (41:27):
I got drafted in.
Let's see, I was in, was it?
1959 or 60 and that's part ofthe part of the story because I
got drafted and and I left,edison and we and the family was

(41:54):
going to go to Rondo Park andsay goodbye Right, have a big
going away party right.
And I had purchased a 1958Chevy convertible Impala and I

(42:16):
just loved that car.
Well, on the way to that thing,we got in an accident.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Oh no.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
And as a matter of fact I had in those days Edison
was selling seatbelts.
Uh-huh.
And I bought one and I had thisseatbelts.
Uh-huh, and I bought one and Ihad this seatbelt on, but it
doesn't have the shirt Right.
So when the guy hit me, he hitme, it was a rainy night and his

(42:48):
car was going sideways.
Uh-huh.
And I couldn't hit him.
So, anyway, I hit him and Itook a bite out of the steering
wheel, oh, and I lost a coupleof teeth.
So anyways, that was anotherpart of the old.
Another adventure story, yeah.
So you know I think.

(43:10):
Didn't that keep you out for?

Speaker 1 (43:14):
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well see, I had to go to the dentist and all that
yeah you had to wait, Didn'tthat keep you out for a little
bit?

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Well see, I had to go to the dentist and all that.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, you had to wait until you were all better,
right.
So I was better and so I didn'tgo back to work.
But my brother, Terry, sayswell, he says I've got a second
car you can have or can use.
He says, but on condition thathe had bought this old yacht and

(43:44):
it needed a lot of work.
So he hired me to work on it andI sanded it mostly a wooden
boat and I worked on it it wasmostly a wooden boat, yeah, and
I worked on that all summer long, and so he paid me to do it,
and so I never went back toEdison Right and finally I had

(44:14):
to go into the service and so Ithink, after several going away
parties, every time there was agoing away and I went down and I
never could pass the test oh no.
I was blood high pressure, butyeah, I was blood high pressure,

(44:36):
yeah, but yeah, I was prettywell feeling.
So, anyways, I went to my doctor, who happens to be the
physician for Catholic CentralFootball and good friends of my
brother, tom, and a matter offact, I think was it one of our

(45:03):
church was born with, oh, drRonay Ronay.
Well, now actually he quit orretired, remember Dr Monning,
and then he went and worked at asteel mill someplace.
Anyway, but they were goodfriends, uh-huh, and I remember

(45:29):
going to him and I says you know, I don't know why my blood
pressure's, and he says you'reall right.
And he says, hey, do you wantto get out of the service?
I says no.
I says you know, I ain't called, I'm going to do my duty.
So he says okay, so I went backand they never did get me a
good.
You know, I went back again andI, you know just part of the

(45:55):
excitement or something likethat.
So, anyways, we got on thetrain and went to Fort Knox and
I had my basic training thereand the MOS you know what that
is, that I don't MOS.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Oh, your military occupation, yeah yeah, yeah,
your MOS.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
You know what that is , that I don't MOS.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Oh, your military accommodation, yeah, yeah, yeah,
your MOS, yes, okay.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Yeah, and it was printing.
And so you know, instead of andthat was the time when Cuba was
the Cuba crisis was happening.
Right, yeah, when Cuba was theCuba crisis was happening, Right
, yeah, so you know.
The sergeant says well, all youguys are going to go to Cuba,

(46:41):
and oh shit, Anyways.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
They like to tell you that stuff when you're in boot
camp, don't they?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So, anyways, but you know, they sent me to Fort Ben
Harrison, indiana, uh-huh, andso I was there for about nine
months and during that time Imet Loretta.

(47:10):
And, matter of fact, I think Iwent to a wedding reception with
my sister and Loretta was inthe thing, and so she told my
sister I don't know how he gotWell, when he came with his
sister, I thought it was hisdate.
Okay, okay, so it was yoursister, not your date.
No, well, it was that date.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Right, right, it was his date.
Oh, okay, okay, so it was yoursister, not your date.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
No, well, it was that date.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Right right, it was somebody else, but it was my
sister, anyway.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So we finally made connections and after the
reception everybody went to thelocal bar, I think it was, and
so we were there and she'sdriving her car and I was
driving my car.

(48:02):
So anyways, we met and I said,you know, we're getting pretty
close here.
That's kind of neat, yeah.
So anyways, I said, well,you're going home?
She says yeah.
I says, well, I'm going tofollow you home because I want
to make sure you get there soanyway, the oldest trick in the

(48:24):
book and she swallowed it youknow, anyways.
so we got there and I think Ihad our first kiss there and
that was kind of neat.
So, anyways, then we decided,well, we're going to start
dating, and of course I was inthe service at the time.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Great.
Now how far was Fort BenjaminHarris from where?

Speaker 2 (48:51):
It's about four hours .
Yeah, a four-hour drive.
Yeah, okay, a little over 200miles.
Fort Benjamin Harris, fromwhere it's about four hours.
Yeah, four hour drive.
Yeah, okay, a little over 200miles, something like that,
because he came home everyweekend Every weekend, Of course
.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Of course.
You came home every weekend.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
I came home, my love of life was there, you know,
right, right.
So anyways, that was that waskind of neat, and and so anyways
, that was kind of neat and Iremember I think it was over a
holiday or something like thatthat I introduced her to Rondo

(49:28):
Park, so we were there, and sothat was kind of neat.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Now.
So what were you doing?
So your MOS was printing, yeah.
So what were you doing inIndiana?
What kind of work were youdoing there?
That's interesting, yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Because I didn't know how to you know the big
printing machines.
I never used them, right.
So they said well, you can workwith this woman that runs the
printing and she made me.

(50:08):
When the print was all done,you had to wrap them up and and
send them.
Well, I was the guy thatwrapped them up so that was your
job so I was wrapping up stuffand and sending you know,
sending out to the, the rest ofthe plant, I guess I don't know

(50:28):
where they're going.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Well, and how long were you in the Army then?

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Until I was there almost nine months when I got my
orders to go to Fort Bragg andI remember one of the guys I
think it was a sergeant orsomething out there and he says
oh geez, you've got nine months,you're almost a short timer

(50:59):
already, right, so he tried tokeep me there but he couldn't.
So, anyways, I had purchased acar that I had gotten the money
from the car that was in thecrash.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
I think it was $800 or something and it was a
Mercury stick shift which youknow, I know how to drive but I
never liked this.
But anyways, I had that for Idon't know several, a couple of
years, I don't know.
I took it to Fort Bragg, okay,so I was there at Fort Bragg.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
So did you do kind of the same thing at Fort Bragg
then?

Speaker 2 (51:47):
No, I was put into psychological warfare.
Oh okay, and psychologicalwarfare again.
I have no idea how to run amachine.
Mm-hmm.
But I had a little talent ofmaking with wood or something.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Yeah, yeah, working with wood or something.
Yeah, yeah, working with wood.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
And so I made a model of the printing plant and stuff
like that.
And I remember this boy I can'tremember his name, but he
became a good friend a black kid, and he was an artist.

(52:42):
So whatever I did, he paintedit.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Oh, some guys made a good team.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
So we were a good team.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
And and and pretty much that was my job at, at and
the, and I remember well that wehad gone to other facilities,

(53:20):
other Other bases, bases yeah.
And I forget one was the AirCorps.
Not the Air Corps, but I knowthey were famous for their
paratroopers.
Now, Bragg was the 82nd.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Right.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
So this must have been 101st, or something.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Down at Fort Benning.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
But anyways, we were there.
Mm-hmm but anyways, we werethere and the local, the guys
would put us up, yeah, but no,we went to a hotel.
It was a hotel, okay, but thehotel wouldn't let this black

(54:14):
kid in, so he, so they were ableto.
You know one of the armypersonnel, he would stay there,
but of course in those days theywere still segregated pretty
good, yeah, that was kind ofrough.
Yeah, it was, so I rememberthat pretty much.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
So you did that for another what like nine months
then.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Yeah, well, until I got out, got out in 64.
Yeah, I got out.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Now?
Were you still dating or hadyou gotten married by this time?

Speaker 2 (54:52):
No, yeah, we were still dating Okay.
Were you still dating or hadyou gotten married by this time?
No, yeah, we were still dating,okay, and so I would come home
every so often a week Fly home.
Huh, you used to fly.
Well, we had to fly home, yeah.
On standby.
Fly flew into what's the WillowRun?

(55:14):
Willow Run, oh yeah.
Willow Run Airport, yeah, yeahwe flew into Willow Run.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Oh yeah, willow Run Airport.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, we flew into Willow Run.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Flying military standby right.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Something like that.
I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Yeah, I think that's how they did it back then it was
an interesting time.
Oh yeah, so you got out in 1964, and then what did you do after
that?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
I went back to Edison , Okay, and that's when I
because I got out of the mappingand went over to the model shop
and of course I just kind ofloved that.

(56:01):
But I wasn't trained, I mean, Ididn't have a lot of the
training.
So I learned a lot of stuffwhen I was at the model shop and
I met some good friends thereand the model shop moved out to

(56:25):
Livinori I don't know what theycall it campus, but Livinori.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
And that was.
You know, they had the big shopand it was really kind of neat
and that was one of the the umaddison had.
I forget who one of his vicepresident or somebody but he had

(56:55):
an electric car that he hadworked on and this electric car
was at this area, yeah, and weused to go and look at it, and
every once in a while he got tobe an older man and he just took

(57:17):
a lot of the advantages ofgoing and puddling around with
it.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
And it worked again, yeah, so it was kind of neat how
long were you at Edison?
I was there about 18 years.
Okay, another side job there.
They had a truck with what doyou call the?

(57:46):
Oh boy.
The calliope.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Like an organ calliope.
Huh, a calliope.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Oh yeah, like an organ, calliope, yeah a calliope
, and Edison would loan thiscalliope to parades and stuff
like that.
Well, I was part of that, youknow, and I would take the
calliope and they would send aguy that could play the thing
with me and we'd go to the theparade.

(58:17):
Matter of fact, one of theparades was uh at, uh, saint
gerard's, where I was going tochurch at that time, and the
church had a big celebrationthere, and so we took the
calliope and the truck there andwent up and down the side seats
.
Yeah, you forgot to tell themwhen we were married in 65,

(58:40):
April.
I was married in 65.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Okay, so you've been married 60 years now.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah, okay, we bought a house and when we were
officially married, we movedinto the house.
Yeah, we bought the housebefore we were married in
Detroit.
Her father wasn't terriblypleased with that because he
didn't think Detroit was goingto be a very good place to live.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Right.
So did you live in that housefor the 18 years that you were
at Edison then?

Speaker 2 (59:14):
18 years with Edison.
Yeah, we lived pretty much inthat house, all right, and did
you have children there?
We had.
Yeah, I think all of them wereborn there, okay how many
children do you have?

Speaker 1 (59:26):
I?

Speaker 2 (59:26):
had three, okay, four , four.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Somebody's not going to be happy about that, right.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Ann was just born, about two years before we lived
and we built a dormer on thehouse to take care of the new,
the kids.
At the time, though, theneighborhood was changing.
We had our first blackneighbors moved right next door

(59:57):
uh-huh and they were neat peopleand and I think they had a
little little daughter orsomething and and laurie would
take care of her.
It was kind of neat.
so and and our good friends, thesheriff ellies, were down the
street and we used to go totheir house and play pinochle, I

(01:00:18):
think it was, and the guyswould cheat like hell and they'd
still lose.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Oh, that's how it goes.
That's how it goes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Anyway all of a sudden, oh, I got this full
house, what the hell.
Or I got double pinochle,anyway.
So it was fun, it was a goodtime, and they remained friends
for years.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
So how old were your kids then, when you moved?

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, Ann was two and Bridget was five.
Uh-huh, Bridget was yeah, fiveRJ was six and Katie was seven.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
And where did you so?
When you left that neighborhood, where did you go from there?

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
We went to East Lansing, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
And the reason we went.
Yeah, so why did you leave DTEand how did you end up in East
Lansing?

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Well, my brother Tom, had begun a new law school
called Thomas Cooley Law Schoolin Lansing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Oh, and he was the one he was the founder of that
school Uh-huh called ThomasCooley Law School in Lansing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Oh, and he was the one.
He was the founder of thatschool, uh-huh, and he had.
They had purchased a property,but in the first six months they
outgrew the property, and thatwas on Grand Street, I think it
was.
Uh-huh.
And so he purchased the MasonicLodge.

(01:02:03):
Masonic Lodge, an old building,and it was in terrible repair.
Uh-huh, but it was big.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
That's what he did.
It was big and it was abuilding.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Yeah, it was big and a building and he was just.
You know we're getting allkinds of students and the neat
part about Kulin Law School isthat they had three terms or
three classes and each class hadits own.
In other words, if you went tothe morning, you graduated from

(01:02:39):
morning, afternoon and thenevening.
Well then he started a weekendclass and he got them all over
the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
United.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
States came in and, of course, cooley was tough.
It wasn't a terribly toughschool to get into, but it was
tough to get out.
Yeah, he hired a lot of goodprofessors, mm-hmm.
And so, you know, the schoolrocketed, you know, oh yeah, and

(01:03:14):
we finally got a certification.
And so we got the certification.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Now, what were you doing at Cooley Law School then?

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Well, at the beginning I was the only one
that took care of the property.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Oh, okay, so.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
I hired the janitorials and of course I
hired the companies to do allthe electricians and the
plumbers.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
So you were the facility's supervisor manager.
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
And after a while I took over the purchasing
department, uh-huh, so I waskind of doing everything for a
while.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Well, what was it like to watch that happen?
Because Cooley's a big deal andso you got to see it from when
it wasn't a big deal.
Yeah, yeah, right.
So what was that like for youto see that happen?

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Well, of course we grew.
We bought the old JC Penneybuilding.
Yeah.
And we made that our library.
Mm-hmm.
And the building that we callthe center building.
Now, I don't forget what thename of it was, but it was my

(01:04:39):
brother.
It was a 14-story building andit was a cheap building.
And my brother said, oh, I gotit, I got it, that's location
and everything Right.
It was really nice and thebuilding would go and you could

(01:05:00):
get in the middle of one of thefloors and jump up and down and
you could feel it move.
Oh, yeah.
So it was a cheap building, yeah, so anyways, and it was only
eight-foot ceilings, mm-hmm andit was only eight-foot ceilings
and very little room to put anykind of ventilation system in.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
So you know, brother, and I sitting there thinking
about it and I said, well, Isays, you know, maybe if you
remove the floor above and makethat one floor, we could have

(01:05:44):
enough room.
And he started thinking aboutit.
I said, well, why don't we dothat for the whole building?
I said, well, we could do that.
Wow, so we made a 10-storybuilding out of a 14-story
building.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
You lost a few floors .

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Well, and of course, all steel work.
Yeah, I mean, we completelygutted it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Took all the infrastructure and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
We took everything it was pretty much a brand new
building and our architect wasan old friend from St Thomas and
my brother was a good friend ofhim and matter of fact St
Thomas.

(01:06:37):
Okay, and my brother was a goodfriend of him and, matter of
fact, he had that architect, haddesigned the St Thomas church.
So he was, and so, anyways, wegot together and and it became a
real project.

(01:06:58):
Yeah.
So and his name was Bernie,bernie Mayotte that his son was
just a newly a new architect.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
yeah, Newly minted architect.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
But he was quite talented.
So, anyways, mike and myselfwould get together and we would
make sure that this got togetherand made, and so he was quite a

(01:07:41):
friend after a while, becausewe really had to get together
and in those days we had aplumber team and we had

(01:08:03):
electrical and we had theHausman Construction Company,
yeah, and so all these companieswe had when we were in the new

(01:08:24):
building there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Yeah, the old building.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
In other words, we got friends with them at the
Masonic Temple.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
So we just carried all that stuff over.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
And I'm sure they were happy to have the business.
Oh that's oh a houseman.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Matter of fact, he was so he was so happy and we
paid our bills every month Right, and in those days, you know
they were lucky to get money in90 days.
Yeah, yeah, and so.
So, anyways, he would give us a10% discount.

(01:09:02):
Every time we gave him a billhe'd give us 10% off, and it
happened that the DARD people,the plumbers, would do the same
and the electrician would do thesame.
So every bill we got and wepaid them every month and they

(01:09:27):
gave us a 10% discount.
That's definitely worth it, sothat worked pretty good for both
, actually Right.
Because they all got paid everymonth.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Now, did you stay at Cooley right up until you
retired then?
Yes, Okay so you were there alongley, right up until you
retired then, yes, okay, so youwere there a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Yeah, the day we opened that building was, or the
year, I guess, the 2000.
Uh-huh, we had a bigcelebration and it was a black
tie.
Oh yeah, it was really neat.
Matter of fact, we got picturesof all our kids and their

(01:10:06):
spouses and stuff, so it wasreally neat.
Where did the name come from,thomas?

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Cooley was a Supreme Court Justice of the Michigan
Supreme Court.
We've been talking for a longtime, ray, so Thomas Cooley Law
School got its name from aMichigan Supreme Court justice
then.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
As a matter of fact, he was connected to the federal
government and his big thing wasthe railroad system.
Okay, so he was part of thatdesign and all for the federal
railroads.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
So his family was happy to lend his name to the
law school.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Yeah, because there were still some people left.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
And the first party we had when the school was being
new.
We had Raymond Burr.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Oh, raymond Burr, Raymond Burr, old Ironsides yeah
he gave a speech at the initial.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
How cool is that.
As a matter of fact Laurie andI were talking to Raymond is
that Laurie and I were talkingto Raymond and he says well, if
you ever get into, get toHollywood, huh, to Los Angeles.
No no to the Brennan's.

(01:11:54):
Brecht of St Brennan's, oh okay.
And New Orleans to.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
Brennan's breakfast at.

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
Brennan's oh okay, in Los Angeles.
No, new Orleans, new Orleans uh, huh and we talked about.
He says did you ever get that'sthe greatest place in the world
?
And he well, we never did.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
But it's never too late.
Yeah, it's never too late, yeahbut he highly recommended it uh
huh so he was.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
He was a neat guy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
So your family got to basically grow up in East
Lansing then and did you staypretty much in the same
neighborhood the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
No, Our first house was oh yeah.
Well, we to to our first house.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
This is our second, so and but you raised your
family at the everybody was.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
We lived on 1551 Greenview.
Yeah, harrison, yeah, okay, Ithink when we moved here, they
were all in college or they wereall gone.

(01:13:08):
So we were pretty much….

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Kind of empty nesters when you moved.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yeah, empty nesters when we first got here.
Okay, okay okay, that makessense and in those days Walnut
Hills had the had the women'stournament yeah, was it the
Buick Open?
Well, the Buick Open was inGrand Ledge, but I forget what.
I think it was.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
I forget what it I think it was I forget what it
was, but one of the One of thosecar companies, I think,
sponsored it Oldsmobile, yeah,the Oldsmobile, oldsmobile
Classic.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Now is this where you met the Pop-Offs?
Was it Walnut Hills?

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
No, I can't, no, I can't.
I think her dad was a member ofthe what's the club that all

(01:14:15):
the boating club.
No, well, the You're talkingabout your wife's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
Yeah, yeah, dan.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
Her father was a member of the football thing.
Oh, the football, the boostersyeah yeah, but you know they
meet every during the seasonthey meet every week, and her

(01:14:46):
father, I think, was a highmonkey in that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Okay, and that's Papa .
Yeah, yeah, because sheremembers you guys from when she
was a lot younger.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
Yeah, yeah, she does.
So she was Well, she was goodfriends with Brian too, right?

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Yes, brian Birch, brian Birch.
Yep, okay, so that's how sheknows you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
It could be, but I'm sure that her father was in that
.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Shoot.
You'll think of it after we'redone talking, I'm sure of it.
So yeah, so you came here, youworked for.
You basically helped buildCooley Law School, which is just
amazing to me.
I want to ask you anotherquestion, though, and I'm going
to get this all wrong, because Isaw this a while ago, but in

(01:15:37):
your office there's a picture onthe wall from I think it's a
newspaper article about a watchor a ring or something that was
your grandfather's watch.
Yeah, your grandfather's watch.
Oh, what's the story about that?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Well as.
I told you that both mygrandparents were from Kingston
Ontario.
Yeah, and my grandmother was aDevlin Her father was the

(01:16:21):
original fire chief in KingstonOntario, and in those days he
was.
They call him a taxi driver.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Well, a taxi was a horse and a drone buggy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
It wasn't a little yellow car, yeah, and they.
And because he knew theneighborhood, he knew the whole
thing that he was a volunteerfireman and then pretty soon
they made him the fire chief andin the later days they had a

(01:17:00):
building that the fire chief wasthere and of course the bottom
floor was where they keep thehorses and stuff and the upper
floor is where the people lived.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
And that building's still around and, matter of fact
, when we went to visit Kingston, we took a tour through that
building.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
Oh yeah, Tell them how the watch came about.
Yeah, how did he lose his watch?

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Well, the citizenship gave him the watch.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
And he had the watch for a number of years, and when
he died he gave it to mygrandmother.
My grandmother had the watch.
Well, she didn't think shewanted the watch, you know.
So she gave it back to the fireand they had a museum, I think,

(01:18:02):
at that time, and so the watchwas displayed in this museum.
Well, they shut down the museumand the watch was part of the
museum.
Well, they shut down the museum.
And the watch was part of thestuff and they put it in storage

(01:18:26):
.
So when RJ, my son, and I wentto Kingston, we visited the fire
department and we told themabout the watch and stuff and we

(01:18:47):
met the fire chief and, matterof fact, they gave us I think
they gave RJ a shirt or gave mea shirt and gave him a jacket.
With the you know.
With the name of the firedepartment yeah the fire

(01:19:08):
department on it, and so we wentback to the hotel.
We got a call about 10 o'clockat night.
It says we found your watch.
It says we'll be right over.
Wow.
And they brought and theycalled up the newspaper the

(01:19:30):
local newspaper, and so when wegot there they had the newspaper
people there and they took ourpictures and they got us their
story.
Matter of fact, I think thenext day we had lunch with the
lady that was writing thearticle and we told her all
about what was going on.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
Oh, that's a really cool story.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
Yeah, and the other connection we had with Kingston
was that her uncle, one of hiskids, lived there oh, lived

(01:20:22):
there and so while we were therewe talked to them and they
invited us over for dinner.
Well, it was like aThanksgiving dinner and all the
stuff was there and all theirkids were there and we all felt
like we were buttoned in.
But no, they really treated uswell.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
That's great.
So the watch now is in thatshadow box.
Yeah, oh, so that's where yousaw it.
Yeah, that's where I saw it wasin the office, in the shadow
box he had an estimate on it andI think it was worth what?

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
$800.
But he wanted, of course hewants to keep it.
We were going to try to get itto run again.
And we probably could have, butwe had to send it away.
I says I'm not going to takethat.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
That's a little risky , isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Yeah, I'm not going to take that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
RJ put his.
He says when Dad goes, watchhis mind.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Well, he was there when it got recovered.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
Yeah, yeah, so anyways, but that was another
story about.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Kingston, Ontario, Interesting.
Well, you know, we've beentalking for about an hour and a
half and we've covered a lot ofthings, stuff I never would have
known otherwise.
So a couple of things before wekind of wrap up.
Okay one is there anything thatwe didn't talk about that you
wanted to talk about?
Is there anything that youwanted to cover that we didn't

(01:21:48):
cover?

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
what was the?
I yeah no there's something, andit probably has nothing to do
with me, okay, but Pope Leo hada did a commentary on Charlie

(01:22:15):
Kirk.
Uh-huh, it was just a beautiful, beautiful thing and it lasted
maybe a half an hour anyways, ormaybe better, but he did all
the things about Charlie Kirkand he brought in the fact that
people are not going to churchanymore and he says you know,

(01:22:40):
charlie is responsible to getpeople back to church.
And that was a beautifultribute and I'll never forget
that.
But anyways, that was.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Well, this sort of leads me to my final question,
really, and that is when peopleare watching this or listening
to it, even years from now, whatmessage would you like to leave
them with?

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Well, I'm always a believer in heaven and you've
got to save your soul to getinto heaven, and I think that
people are not doing enough toget there and I hope I am, but I

(01:23:39):
don't know.
So now we continue to go tochurch and do our daily prayers.
As a matter of fact, I've got aSt Anthony thing that I do
daily prayers there.
And so, anyways, I just hope andI'm concerned that somehow

(01:24:04):
we're all going to get there,and so that's my promise and
hope.
So, anyways, if we and ifeverybody meets in heaven,
that'll be wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
I agree.
Yeah, I agree.
Well, thanks for taking theafternoon and talking with me.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Okay, I hope it was worth it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
It definitely was Ray , it was Okay.