From Drill Weekends to Disability: Susan McCain's Path Through Military and Civilian Life

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today is Wednesday, june 4th 2025.
We're here with Susan McCain,who served in the Michigan Army
National Guard.
So welcome, susan.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you so much, Bill.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
All right, so we're going to start out really easy
and maybe the questions will getharder as we go along.
But when and where were you?

Speaker 2 (00:13):
born.
I was born in Mount Clemens,michigan, at St Joseph's
Hospital.
Okay, in what year?
1962.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Okay, all right.
Okay, in what year?

Speaker 2 (00:21):
1962.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
All right, so you're a 60s, 70s kid then yes, I am.
We probably have some similarstories, right, I would imagine.
So did you grow up in MountClemens?

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I did not.
I spent my first five years inUtica, michigan, and then we
moved to our new home inSterling Heights.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Okay, and then so how old?
So you were like five when youmoved to Sterling Heights.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, I was between five and six because I started
first grade.
I'd done kindergarten at theold house.
Uh huh, first grade at the newhouse.
Okay, brothers and sisters.
I have four.
I had four, okay, um, my oldestbrother, ken.
He's five years older than I am.
My brother Ken, kevin, is fouryears older than me and my

(01:10):
brother Curtis was just a yearand a half older than I am, but
he was born with Down syndrome.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
So he just passed this last September, so things
are a little raw when I talkabout him.
We were the closest in age outof all my siblings, and then I
have a younger sister who's twoyears younger than I am.
Her name is Cheryl with an Sand it's Curtis with a K.
Okay, that's what he always sayCurtis with a K.
Lampar, L-A-M-P-A-R.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
How nice, that was my main name.
Okay, alright, so you got to bethe baby for a couple of years
then.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I did.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
I really did.
Did you hear any stories aboutwhat it was like when the new
baby got there and you realized?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
it wasn't you anymore .
Well, before the new baby gotthere, I had already earned the
name the Brat, so you canimagine the first girl being
born after three boys.
My mom said my dad was walkingon clouds.
And so yeah, I was the goldenchild for two years and I used
to say that my sister came alongand ruined everything, but she

(02:22):
has been a blessing in my lifeand I'm glad I have a sister.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh good, yeah Well, you know, siblings aren't a
blessing until has been ablessing in my life and I'm glad
I have a sister.
Oh good, yeah, Well, you know,siblings aren't a blessing until
they are a blessing, right?

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Exactly so talk a little bit about growing up.
What was it like for you andyour family as a kid?
It was, I mean, prettydysfunctional, considering you
know you got five children andmy dad worked for Michigan Bell.
So he made a decent income butneeded to work a lot of overtime
so he wasn't home a lot and hesuffered with depression, manic

(02:55):
depression.
So he was on lithium basicallyfor his whole adult life.
He only lived to 74, and he wasalso an alcoholic on top of
that.
So that created a lot ofchallenges for my mother and us
children.
So, um, but we always knew wewere loved, right?

(03:20):
you know, yeah, so um, we alwayshad food, and you know, shelter
and cars, you know.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
All the stuff you needed, exactly, yeah, yeah.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour mom.
What was she like?

Speaker 2 (03:34):
My mom was basically raised as an only child.
She was like later in lifechild and had several older
brothers and she was somewhat ofa perfectionist.
Both her and my father grew upin the Catholic church and
Catholic schools so there wassome remnants of guilt and sin

(04:00):
and a lot of the things thatcome with that faith and I've
learned to appreciate it andglad that I was able to have
some foundation in my faith andmy spiritual life and I always
tell people I was born andbaptized Catholic, married

(04:28):
Presbyterian and then we raisedour son in a Southern Baptist
church.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
That's a big change.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
So I consider myself very well-rounded in the
spiritual realm and I still, tothis day, very strongly keep
close contact with God every day, and I'm grateful for that
heritage.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, that foundation means a lot.
It does.
It doesn't seem to at the timewhen you were a kid.
I don't think Right, but itreally does mean a lot.
So did you go to Catholicschools then?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
I did not.
No, all my siblings and I wentto public school.
Okay, what was school like for?

Speaker 1 (05:03):
you.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
It was a playground.
I was told by one of my bossesI was a social, not a social
butterfly, but a social animal.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Not quite a butterfly though.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Right.
So it was my time to get aroundmy friends and just hang out.
I wasn't real academicallyorientated.
I struggled with readingcomprehension.
I can speed read, but Icouldn't tell you what I just
read.
So, um, I think, I think I'madhd, if I had to diagnose

(05:40):
myself.
I've never been tested, but um,yeah, so there's that That'll
present its own challenges,right?

Speaker 1 (05:49):
so is there anything in particular I mean other than
social aspects anything inparticular in school that really
stands out to you or that youreally appreciated?

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yes, I had an English teacher in middle school who
tutored me with all of the nounsand verbs and pronouns and all
of that.
And then I had one otherteacher, that was Mrs Jarkey,
and then I had Mr Smith when Iwas in high school who was my
algebra teacher.
And later on, when I was 26, Imarried my college algebra tutor

(06:24):
.
Oh, because I didn't do mathvery well.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
I failed algebra twice, chemistry once, so math
wasn't my strong suit either.
Okay, it's kind of cool howthere's always that those one or
two teachers that you reallyremember and that stick out to
you yeah, so you made it throughschool and you graduated.
What happens next?

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, I don't want to forget to mention Mrs Stewart.
She was an elementary teacher,that stands out.
She was very instrumental inshaping me.
Anyways, what was the lastquestion?

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Oh, just so.
When you graduated high school,what was kind of the next step
for you?

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, I wanted to be married.
I had a boyfriend I'd beendating since I was 16, and we
stayed together for about threeto four years and I just decided
that I wanted more than what hewanted.
And so I kissed my baseballcoach.
I started playing softballafter high school, Moved out of

(07:30):
the house when I was 18 and gota job working for Macomb and
Reedy at school district.
As soon as I turned 18, Iturned in the application.
I got hired just a couplemonths after that to be a
teacher's assistant for specialneeds children and adults like 0

(07:52):
to 26.
So that was basically my career.
So I did that for five yearsand at 23 I decided I can't
afford to go to college exceptfor one class a semester and I'd
be there, ended up taking me 37years to get my first

(08:12):
associate's degree.
But I really wanted a familymore than a career and um.
So my quest was to find MrWright and I found Mr McCain.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
And he was Mr Wright, but not Mr Wright.
Now, right.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Exactly exactly.
But we had known each other andtaught at the same school
district and at 23 I decided tojoin the military so I could get
help with paying for collegeand going to nursing.
Thinking that I was going tomake more than I did as a

(08:51):
teacher's aide.
I didn't want to be a teacher'saide for the rest of my life,
ended up staying over 35 yearsjust transferring to different
positions in order to, you know,get new experiences and

(09:14):
different age groups, differentdisabilities.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
So you and Mr McCain met.
Were you dating then when youjoined the military, or were you
married at the time?

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, no, there was John.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Oh, so there's more to the story yes, okay so you
met mr mccain, but you didn'tquite get married yet.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
And then you met john yeah, we, we worked together in
the same building because hewould sub in the summertime,
because my job, my position wasyear round okay and his what.
He was off in the summer so hewould come and sub in our
building.
So I knew of him and he hadwanted to ask me out.
But I always had softballpractice after work when
everybody else was going out tothe bars.

(09:53):
So he's like, yeah, you nevercame out to the bars.
So I joined the military in 85and joined the military in 80,
no, 85, and getting my thoughtsmixed up.
So I joined in 85, hoping to gointo nursing, did my basic

(10:19):
training, did my combat medictraining down at Fort Sam
Houston, did my basic at FortDix, New Jersey.
And when I got out is when Itook the entrance exam for the
nursing program and they saidyou didn't do too well in the
math section.
We want you just to go take acouple of remedial math classes

(10:42):
at the college.
And so I said okay.
So I did that.
And then I took the nextalgebra because I knew for any
degree I was going to have tohave more than just 100 classes.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Right, right, the 100 classes to get you ready for
the next class.
Right, Exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
So I get into algebra and I'm like totally lost.
And one of my coworkers saidcall Terry McCain, he's over at
the high school and he runs thealgebra program.
So he said, well, send me somethings through the van mail and
I'll let you know if I can helpyou.
And so I did, and I actuallyended up getting transferred

(11:22):
into his building.
Oh, and he was working at thehigh school for severely
emotionally impaired adolescentsat the time and there happened
to be an opening and I appliedfor it, and so he would
literally tutor me after thekids left in the classroom and
he would say X equals Y, becauseand I would say I don't know

(11:47):
when I would cry and just carryon.
And we found out our birthdayswere a day apart, in November.
This is the 21st and mine's the20th.
There's like four years inbetween as far as our ages,

(12:10):
between as far as our ages.
But, um, anyways, uh, he said,do you want to come out?
We're going to go see a bandwith some of the teachers that
we work with.
They play in this band at night.
So we went to this local barit's called, uh, wooden nickel,
and they had meatloaf sandwicheson the marquee.
Oh, there you go.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Can't be all bad.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Now, his older sister is four years older than him
and he's four years older than Iam, but her birthday is also on
November 21st.
They were born exactly fouryears apart.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
So I said I knew your mother was organized and a
planner, but that's ridiculous.
That's out there.
Anyways, my father-in-law was aPresbyterian minister, so
that's why I marriedPresbyterian and Terry was
tutoring me in algebra and theninvited me to church and I loved

(13:02):
his saying but I can't carry atune to save my life.
So he asked me to join thechoir and I'm like I love it, I
love to sing.
Well, little did he know.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
How long did you stay in the choir?

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Actually we were the choir, we were the elders, we
were the school teachers.
You know school teachers.
So we did a lot of.
Everything was a very smallcongregation.
It was cumberland presbyterian,so it was a small sect, and
there's only two churches inmichigan that I'm aware of, but
um, was it a big deal for him toinvite you to church?

Speaker 1 (13:41):
for me it was I don't , I never asked him, but I'm
sure it was yeah, I mean, insome religions you don't just
bring anybody to church with you, it usually means something's
going on right, yeah well, Iwant to, I want to put a pin in
that, I want to back up a littlebit, though.
So you, um, you joined.
You joined the national guardor the army, right?

Speaker 2 (14:00):
away.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I'm the national guard, okay, so a lot of people
don't know this, that and I'membarrassed to say I didn't know
it either for a long time isthat you can't just join the
national guard.
Yeah right I always thought,because I was prior service, I
always thought, oh, it's justfor people prior service that
want to serve still, nope, youcan join the national guard,
just like join the army or anyother branches of service right

(14:22):
reserves is the same yeah, soyou, uh if I'm hearing right,
though your your reasoningbehind joining the national
guard was to be able to go tonursing school.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Then right and I I really didn't want to lose my
job, yeah.
So it's kind of like the bestof both worlds I can keep this
job that I've had for five years.
I, I've got seniority, I've gota salary, a pension and all of
that.
So I just moved forward and I'mlike, okay, cool, they have to

(14:54):
let me go and they have to letme come back.
And contractually, at the timeI was dating John, who was the
union rep's brother.
So interesting thing about JohnJohn was married prior to us
dating and recent, like I, washis rebound basically.

(15:18):
Yeah.
But he was a cook and he was theone that went with me to see
his recruiter at his unit.
And that's the unit I joined,which was 207th Evacuation
Hospital Unit in Detroit,michigan.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Okay so, and this is back when it really was like one
weekend a month.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Two weeks.
Two weeks in the summer.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, it's not like that anymore.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
It's not.
What is it like now?

Speaker 1 (15:47):
It's.
So I got out, I retired in 2010and, um, if you think about the
op tempo during, uh, all thewars that were going on, um, you
were either deploying or you'repreparing to deploy.
So a lot of times it was, youknow, three or four weeks here
and there, long weekends.
You know, hopefully they getback to the one weekend a month,

(16:09):
two weeks during the summer,but it really has changed quite
a bit.
There's a lot more emphasis onnot being home.
That's how it's kind of changed.
But, yeah, and when I firstjoined it, it was, you know, the
two, two weeks out of the year,one week in a month anyway.
So, yeah, so it's perfect ifyou have a job, um, you know,

(16:32):
you know that you're going to begone, um, I guess.
The other question I have is italways seemed like drill
weekend fell on a weekend wherethere was something going on
that I wanted to do right.
Always there was always awedding or something going on,
right?
Is that kind of the same wayfor?
You yes, yeah, yeah.
So tell me a little bit about,um, what was it like getting to

(16:54):
basic training and?
Here's another interestingthing.
So I've interviewed a lot ofwomen veterans and Fort Dix, uh,
seems to be the place, likethat 80s time frame, where a lot
of women soldiers went.
So you get to Fort Dix, wereyou on a bus or did you fly a
plane there?
How did that?

Speaker 2 (17:12):
work.
I took a plane, I took a vanand they picked me up in a van
at the airport in Philadelphiaand then we drove from the
Philadelphia airport airport inPhiladelphia and then we drove
from the Philadelphia airport.
I actually got to go back tothat airport because I missed my

(17:33):
flight one time when I was inVegas at a conference and like
cool, I'm getting off.
I had a little layover so I wasable to go get me a
Philadelphia sweatshirt Perfect.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Perfect.
So what?
What was it like?
Stepping off, stepping out ofthat van then into basic
training, Were you like preparedfor?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
it.
I don't know if I ever wouldhave been prepared for the
unknown, but I think I was.
I think I was physically andmentally and somewhat
emotionally, you know,emotionally, as you can be
stable at 23.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Right?
None of us were yeah.
So how was?
How was basic training then?

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, um, they just basically take everything that
you think you could have hadwith you and take it away, and I
became X 703.
That was my, my number, numberyour prison number yeah right,
so you were no longer susanmccain, you were x703 and

(18:35):
anyways it was.
Um, it was a challenge becauseI'm small and they didn't have
boots to fit my three and a half, so they had a special order
and make three and a half size,three and a half for me, and
everybody was mad because I gotto do pt and everything in
tennis shoes.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, so it took a while for those boots to get
there, didn't it?

Speaker 2 (18:57):
right, and then my my uniform tags came back and it
was spelled Lamar.
So I told everybody for aboutthree weeks I was P-less because
I didn't have a P in my lastname on my tag.
They corrected me.
The right ones, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Okay, and then you anything stick out in your mind
about basic training Any like,is there anything that like when
you think about it?
Oh, that's what I remember.
Yeah, the shotguns like isthere?

Speaker 2 (19:23):
anything that like when you think about it, oh,
that's what I remember.
Yeah, the, the shotguns.
I mean just walking betweendesks and there was people in
between each desk with a shotgun, giving you an immunization of
some sort right, you didn't wantto move either, because those
things I know and I'm like hey,where's my list of what you guys
are injecting me with?

Speaker 1 (19:43):
I want to know what this is all about.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right, and I still wonder to this day how I could
find that information out.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Somewhere there's a record.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
I don't know if we can get to it, but it's there
somewhere.
So you graduate basic training.
Did your family come out foryour graduation or anything like
that?

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yes, my mom and my dad and my brother curtis um
came and they um their firsthotel wasn't acceptable, and my
mother so they found a holidayinn.
Uh-huh and um, I was able to goand spend the night with them
before I shipped out the nextday.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Okay, so, holiday inn was a big deal too.
Like right, it was the place tostay exactly yeah, I remember
the big sign with all theflashing lights.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny that that would be what
your mom had to have yeah, andfor my dad to drive from detroit
to new jersey, like that was abig deal.
My dad was like I was sharingwith you.
He was still a very nervousperson, yeah, especially with
fear of the unknown and um, buthe was a wonderful man.

(20:47):
I never heard anything anybodysay anything bad about my dad.
You know, my friends used tocome over.
My brother used to get around.
He goes, yeah, my friends comeover to have a beer with my dad,
but they don't come over andhave a beer with me, right?

Speaker 1 (21:00):
So yeah, yeah.
So you, uh, you graduate andgraduate and you, um, you ship
out, you head to your ait, soyou're gonna be a combat medic.
How was that school for you?

Speaker 2 (21:13):
well, oh no, I was gonna be a medical specialist.
That's what the recruiter toldme right I never heard the term
combat medic until I was drivingin the bus from the airport
into Fort Sam Houston and therewas this huge old sign and said
welcome to the home of thecombat medic.
And I'm thinking I wonder whatthey do.
I got on the wrong bus and I'mlike, oh, I'm a combat medic.

(21:39):
And I mean nowadays people say,oh, you're a combat medic.
I never served during combat,but that was the title and I
kind of say it proudly.
Yeah, because I did enjoy thetraining and in my service time
I didn't suffer with any MST,aside from my boyfriend at the

(22:01):
time, who was the cook in ourunit, cheated on me while we
were standing in line, you know,for information.
I seen him over there talkingto some girl and then I wanted
to find out.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, welcome to the National Guard.
Yeah, I know I hate to say that.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Okay, john, I was kind of rocking the cradle over
there because he was youngerthan me.
Yeah.
But very good looking andhandsome and you know I mean
when you're in a, a unit and youknow one of the cooks, it's a
good deal right, right, well,and you don't want that person
to be mad at you exactly forsure?

Speaker 1 (22:40):
so you, uh, so this was the end of you and John.
Then.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
So that was before I got back and took the nursing
entrance exam and I lost my wayas we were talking.
I get sidetracked very easily,but anyways, so I go back get my
college algebra tutor.
Mr McCain.
We go out for the birthdaycelebration and he sweeps me off
my feet on the dance floor.
We both had like one beer andhe's like hey you want to dance?

(23:12):
I'm like, yeah sure Neverdanced with a guy that knew how
to take control of me and I waslike he actually knows what he's
doing.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So, first of all, guys don't like to generally
dance anyway, so that's a scoreright there.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Right, he can actually dance yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, and that first date, my sister was also there
because my sister's birthday isin November.
So I called her and I go, Ihave this date and I'm like I'm
not really attracted likephysically to him, but I really
like him.
He has goals, he has, you know,he has a teaching degree and
he's working on his master's,he's got plans and you know,

(23:52):
some direction and so, differentfrom all these other guys I'd
ever dated, you know.
So, anyways, um, she came, youknow, to be part of the
celebration and to you know,kind of support me in this like
maybe first date, right.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Always good to have a wing person.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Especially with your sister.
Why not Right Now?
That story could have gone adifferent way.
He could have liked your sister, and then you just never know.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
And there's that yes.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
So he asked you to dance and you danced.
Was it like love at first dance?

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yes, literally.
Wow.
I mean it was kind of like afairytale thing that I didn't
expect, because I wasn't reallyphysically attracted to him
initially and when he wastutoring me he'd come over to my
house and I would make himdinner and then we would do our
studying and he would keeptrying to get closer and closer

(24:51):
and elbow me and I was tellingmy cousin.
I said I really like this otherguy at college and I wish he'd
asked me out, but Terry keepshitting on me and I don't know
what to do.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Wow, so how long have you been married then?

Speaker 2 (25:07):
It'll be 37 years this June.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, some spark must have been there at some point.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Good thing you didn't date that college guy Well or
did you?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Um, no, no, no, he.
He never asked me out, um, andTerry knew that I wanted to get
my mom some perfume but Icouldn't afford it.
So they always have these offbrands that's supposed to smell
like it.
So little did I know.
He had terrible allergies andI'm asking him to smell this

(25:38):
because my roommate had theperfume and I had the fake stuff
.
So I said, can you just tell me, doesn't this smell close
enough, you know?
And he's like, yeah, I thinkthat'll work.
Well, he ended up going out andbuying me a bottle of the real
stuff and didn't wrap it oranything, just had it in this

(25:59):
old jacket that I couldn't standand pulled it out and gave it
to me as a birthday present.
So another bonus.
You know he was chalking uppoints left and right, right,
well, he listened.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
Exactly, he listened.
He could dance and he listened.
So, yes, that's awesome,absolutely.
So how long did you date them?

Speaker 2 (26:23):
We dated about two years because we were married on
June 25th in 1988.
Okay.
The hottest day of the year was104 degrees Oof.
No air conditioning in thechurch.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Oh, my goodness, was it the Presbyterian church?
I'm assuming the Presbyterianchurch, right?
Yes?

Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's a small country church in the midst of a big
city is what their little quotewas Is that their draw?
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Well, I want to ask, though so there was no real
spark for a while what finallyconnected for you with him that
you knew that you were going tomarry this guy?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Well, my sister was pregnant at the time out of
wedlock, and she needed aroommate.
So I moved from my cousin'shouse when I got out of the
military into an apartment withher while she was pregnant
because I wanted to make sureshe was taking good care of
herself.
And anyways, I couldn't sleepat night after the baby was born

(27:28):
, because they wake up all thetime as babies will do yeah.
And so Terry and I were datingand I said hey, do you think you
could talk to your roommatesand see if I could move in?
And he goes oh, I don't know.
One was a teacher that weworked with in the same building
and the other one was anassistant, like myself at the
time, so all four of us wouldwork at the same high school and

(27:55):
that was quite a treat.
But I said I'm not moving inwith you until you put a ring on
my finger.
I said I've already lived withone guy and I'm not doing it
again until somebody's gonnamake a commitment to me.
And he said are you asking meto marry?
You Said well, I guess I am.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Wow, now this whole story is just so different from
anything I've ever heard.
It's like I'm trying to wrap myhead around it.
I do want to back up just alittle bit, though.
So how long did you serve inthe national guard then?

Speaker 2 (28:31):
eight years.
Okay, when I enlisted it wastwo by six, and if you that
meant six active, two inactivein the ir and or three five, so
three active five and you got a$2,000 bonus if you signed on
six years.
And I'm like you know, evencollege is only a four year

(28:56):
commitment.
I think I'll give this threeyears and then I can always re
up if it goes well.
Yeah and uh, and I and Terryand I didn't want to have any
children until my obligation wasfulfilled.
Right, that obligation wasfulfilled on april 26 1993 and

(29:18):
our son was born on july 6 1993.
Okay, good planning goodplanning well that was my
husband's, yeah yeah, planning,because he, when I married him,
he did not want to have anychildren and we both taught, so
we were children all day.
And he said I just, you know,I'm getting older, I'm gonna be

(29:42):
60 when our kids walking acrossthe you know, getting his
diploma or whatever.
And so we waited five yearsuntil after we were married and
then I finally said, okay, am Igonna continue, you know,
pursuing a career in college orare we gonna start a family?
And he said, do you mindwaiting until september?

(30:02):
This was like between Christmasand New Year's, yeah, and I
said I've waited five years,what's another nine months?
Right, how could that hurt?
So his in his mind our schoolgoes from his school Go went
from September to June.
And so we figured if we startedtrying in September, that would

(30:23):
give us that time and maybe thebaby would be conceived in the
summertime when we were both offwork.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, my daughter's a schoolteacher.
Oh, cool so yeah, and her andher husband do not want kids.
She loves teaching school, sheloves kids, she doesn't want her
own.
I can understand that a littlebit, so I do want to kind of
close the chapter on themilitary.
Is there anything from yourmilitary time that you'd like to

(30:50):
share as we kind of moveforward in?

Speaker 2 (30:52):
your life with your husband and your children.
Yes, I guess I came to therealization.
What I really signed up for waswhen we did two weeks of
simulated wartime up in Graylingand I got to drive a deuce and
a half in a convoy several timesthere and back to Grayling and

(31:13):
there and back to Battle Creekfor one of our two weeks.
But when we were in Graylingwas when I really got a vivid
picture of what it would havebeen like if this was wartime.
And prior to going to this twoweek summer camp, the supply

(31:35):
sergeant who I helped out within supply he would call me spud
Because all of the gas maskswere on nails.
It was numbered and so I wouldhelp him pass out the gas masks
when we were doing that trainingand I could never reach most of
them because they were allabove.
So, he called me Spud.

(31:55):
I don't know if you're familiarwith Spud McKenzie.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, the dog with the.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
No, this, and I always get the dog and the guy
mixed up, and I think his lastname may be McKenzie, but Spud
was a basketball player and hewas really short but really good
and so anyway, so I've been thebrat and I've been Spud, and

(32:21):
then when I worked in the gym Iwas jim su, so and I like
nicknames yeah, it was uh, to meit's endearing, you know I
can't let my wife hear this,because she gets, she gets.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
She's got a million nicknames for me.
I think I have one nickname forher and she's like why don't
you have nicknames for me?
I'm like it's not a nicknamekind of guy, so she cannot
listen to this, so okay.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
So yeah, like you kind of got a glimpse of this
isn't really what I want to bedoing yeah, and the supply
sergeant had asked me to join orto be on the nuclear,
biological and chemical warfareteam mbc team and so he told me
what it entailed and I washonored that he asked me and I
respected him as a leader.

(33:06):
Well, if there's anybody thatI'd want to work under, it'd be
you, so I was really gratefulfor that time.
Pat Harrington SergeantHarrington was wonderful.
He kind of I never had to worryabout black men in the military
.
They were always veryrespectful and I was small, so I

(33:31):
didn't really feel vulnerableeven though I was small.
But I felt more threatened bywhite officers than I did any of
the enlisted or you know.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Is there something that?
Is that just something likethis part of you, or was it
something that happened thatmade you feel?

Speaker 2 (33:53):
that way.
Well, there were several womenin my unit that would gossip and
I'm sure I joined all in.
But you know there was hearsayabout who slept with who to get
rank and, you know, get promotedor whatever, and I just thought
I'm not that kind of person andI lost some respect for some of

(34:18):
those women.
But I also didn't understand alot at 23.
I also didn't understand a lotat 23.
Right, and so now that inretrospect I look back and think
, well, they were doing whatthey were doing in a man's world
to try to get ahead.
Yeah, so I can't fault them forthat today.

(34:39):
Right, you know it's theirstory to tell and their life to
live, not mine.
Yeah, you know it's their storyto tell and their life to live,
not mine.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, people make decisions that are different
from what we would do for allkinds of reasons.
So, yeah, so it sounds likethere's a lot of things kind of
coming together that you decidethis, it's time to pack it in
and go.
Besides, you wanted to start afamily, right?
Yes, I did yeah to start afamily right yes, I did yeah

(35:07):
yeah yeah.
So you, you get out and youstart that family pretty quick,
um.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
So how many children do you have?
We have one son, uh-huh, iancolin mccain.
I have a little song that Imade up for him.
Anyway, I'm not gonna say ityou sure but he's uh, he's, one
of the loves of my life.
Yeah, he'll be turning 32 thisJuly 6th.
Okay, and he was like his dad,he was born on his due date.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Everything right down to where it should be right,
All regimented.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, so we still had a couple months at home with
him before my husband had to goback to work in September.
Uh-huh School and I took threeyears off.
I was able to take two yearsparental leave, or one year
maternity leave and then twoyears parental leave, um, and it
worked out well, cause one ofmy coworkers wanted to work

(35:59):
halftime and I wanted to workhalftime, and it was working in
the preschool program at thetime, and so she needed the
benefits and I didn't, becausemy husband had them, and so it
worked out well.
We were able to share a jobshare, so I could stay home
another two years oh, that'sperfect, and I wouldn't lose my
position.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
You know, they always have to have a position for me,
but they didn't have to savethat position and they've been.
And my one of my goals when Istarted with the school district
was I wanted to work with thebabies before I retired.
And then, when I retired, Iwanted to retire from let's
school for work experience,because that's the older, higher
functioning adults.

(36:39):
And so, in my mind, that was myplan.
And and and, lo and behold, Iwas able to do that.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Wow, so did having a special needs brother kind of
shape the things that you wantedto do as an adult.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Absolutely my entire life, curtis and I.
He took care of me when I waslittle.
We shared the same bedroom andcribs and he used to pull me out
and teach me how to get out ofmy crib.
There's a story of a couple ofpoopy diapers that got smeared

(37:17):
all over the room while my momwas pregnant with my sister.
Oh no, she called my dad.
Like you've got to go homeright now.
They have everywhere go homeright now they have everywhere.
So my mom said that he wouldcarry me to her around my neck,

(37:38):
like he just put both his armsaround my neck and carry him.
And so he took care of me whenI was young and then I took care
of him while he was old yeah,so it was uh, yeah, he's such a
special person.
He called me his twin one timewhen we were going in to change
guardianship for my mom to me.
My mom was ailing and, um, likeno one's ever wanted to call me

(38:03):
their twin.
Like what an honor.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
So yeah, I treasure that moment well, and curtis
sort of beat the odds too.
I mean, he was born at a timewhere children with Down
syndrome weren't expected tolive a full life.
Right, but he really did.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
He did what a blessing he never had the
typical heart defect that a lotof Downs have to have heart
surgery.
He didn't have a hole in hisheart.
Of downs, I have to have heartsurgery.
He didn't have a hole in hisheart.
He was always very um, veryhealthy, very hyper, and my mom
actually walked picket lines forspecial education to get so he

(38:41):
could go to school.
Yeah, and the programs they hadavailable for him when he was
like under five was at an oldschool house and they would put
him in a straitjacket to straphim in a chair to be able to
teach him and show him stuff,because that was prior to

(39:02):
Ritalin Right, and then theRitalin really helped as he got
older and aged and went tocenter program.
School is what it's called forspecial needs children.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Well, if you think about the time the 70s and the
80s I just don't feel like wereally knew how to take care of
people that had special needs.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
People did the best they could yeah, that was the
one thing that saddened megrowing up was watching all of
like the birthday parties that Iwas invited to and going
bowling and going to the showand like people didn't take
children like that out in public.
It was almost a shame.
Yeah, you know, and my brother,thanks to my mother, who was

(39:51):
very involved in getting himeverything and anything he could
she sold, sold things fororganizations and um to raise
money for these non-profits thatwould help children and adults
like that and um, I alwaysrespected her for that, you know
.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yeah, yeah well, he's your brother too, I mean that's
absolutely yeah, so you, um,you uh, take a couple years off,
you go back to working at theschool, and you said you were at
the school.
For how long um over 35 years atthe school district and you
were able to, like, accomplishthose things that we talked

(40:30):
about.
Then the different places youwanted to work, and all of that,
yes, I did.
You don't seem like the kind ofperson that takes no.
I mean, you seem very nice, butI think if someone told you no,
you might get around it somehow.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I can be a little persistent.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Surely, if you talk to my husband, I'm sure,
although he sounds like he mightbe persistent too.
Yes, he is he got the, he gotthe girl that wasn't attracted
to him to marry him and have afamily.
So, yeah, so at this time too.
Then you changed religions.
Right, because?
You were presbyterian and nowyou're raising your son in the
baptist church.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Southern baptist church yes, what happened was my
father-in-law was retiring andso we were interviewing and
looking for pastors and femalepastor came in and took over and
threw away all my husband'schristian education things and
files and she was just clearinghouse and making herself at home
, without considering people'sfeelings and years of things.

(41:36):
So my husband, I came home froma church elders meeting and he
said I will not be going tofaith church and I said, okay,
can you explain to me why?
Why so then?
And then actually at that eldermeeting that I was at, the
pastor was talking negativelyabout my sister-in-law who was

(41:58):
the Quaker director oh no and soI said well, I'm really glad
you said that, because I don'treally want to go back either.
She said some things that Iwasn't really fond of about
Sherry and I you know, I don'tknow what's going on and he said
you know, christmas is coming,it's right around the corner.

(42:20):
He said why don't we just trysome other churches that are
within walking distance?
Because, he said, when I wasyoung, we always walked from the
manse to the church.
Yeah, you know, on sundaymornings.
And he, he remembers doing thatand he enjoyed it.
So I said, I think that's great.
So that's what we did.
And we ended up at lakesidecommunity church and they call

(42:42):
themselves a a community churchas opposed to a Southern Baptist
, but they were affiliated withthe Southern Baptist convention.
So it wasn't your, you know,can't wear pants, can't dance
type of Baptist church, right.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
And I've noticed that a bit Like there used to be
South Baptist Church here inLansing and it's just South
Church now.
Kind of taken the Baptist outof the name.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, because it had so many negative connotations.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
That came along with it.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Well, it kind of reminds me of a little joke that
somebody once told me, and I'llshare it with you in the
audience, hopefully I don't getin trouble for this.
So this this guy passes awayand he goes to heaven.
He meets saint peter and saintpeter's gonna give him like a
tour of heaven.
And uh, there's this longhallway with all these doors and
the guy says, what are allthese doors?
And the guy goes well, theseare all different denominations,

(43:39):
and so he goes.
He goes I'll show you what'sgoing on.
So you know they go to the firstdoor and they he goes you gotta
be real quiet.
So he opens the door and it'sthe Catholic church.
You know it's quiet and they'reworshiping in their way of
worshiping, and you know heworks his way down the hall.
They go to the Pentecostalchurch and man, you really feel
like you opened the door there.
And finally, after like an hour, they get to this door way at

(44:02):
the end of the hallway, and StPeter puts his hand on the
doorknob and goes to open thedoor.
He goes, now hold on a second.
You need to be really, reallyquiet when I open this door,
because these are the Baptists.
They think they're the onlyones up here, so I think that's
how it used to be.
No offense to my Baptistfriends out there, but that's

(44:26):
one of my favorites.
But yeah, so you end up findinga church that fits your needs.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
It feels like home to you then yes, and our, our son,
felt comfortable there.
The first sunday we weresupposed to go, I was actually
sick, so my husband still tookour son and they still went.
So I was really pleased aboutthat.
And while he was there, one ofmy dearest friends to this day
asked him to join the choir.

(44:49):
Can he sing?
So yes, he can.
He's had voice lessons and he'splayed the guitar and so he's
very musically talented this guysounds amazing.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
He really I'm not gonna lie like.
You've really built thispicture for me.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
Well, I'm really glad , because I don't always tell
him.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
So now he gets to join the.
Did they ask you to join thechoir?

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Not right away, and Ian was young and I was a very
involved mother.
So I we had decided when wewere at Faith Church with us
being such a small congregation,we were involved in so many
things I said it's it's not fairto Ian that we're both in
leadership positions because oneof us was not going to be able

(45:38):
to go if he got sick and so onand so forth.
So I said if you want tomaintain your leadership at the
church, I'm going to take a stepdown and take care of Ian and
be able to be available for himand not have additional
responsibilities at this time.
So that worked out well.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Okay, so you've got a new church and then kind of
fast forward a little bit,you've gone back to work.
I don't want to just breezeover.
Hey, I worked 35 years at theschool system.
Give us some highlights aboutwhat it was like to be working
in the schools.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
When I first started, when I was 18, I subbed and I
learned what a severely multiplyimpaired child was, and that
meant they were mentallyimpaired and had more than two
physical handicaps.
So the majority of the childrenwe cared for were

(46:34):
institutionalized and then busedfrom the nursing home to our
school.
So we were getting studentsfrom the community as well.
But those that wereinstitutionalized came from
Warren Village at the time inWarren, michigan, and then
several of them came fromClinton Air Nursing Home where

(46:55):
my mom actually worked part-time.
So it was sad.
When I first started in 18, andI remember coming home and
asking my mom, I said you knowhow come?
You know these kids have to beborn this way and why?
You know it just doesn't seemfair.
And she said well, one thingthat you have to decide for

(47:18):
yourself.
She said somebody has to takecare of these children and you
just have to decide if you'regoing to be one of them.
And that's all I needed to hear.
So my mother is yeah, she was awealth of wisdom and we were
very close.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Yeah, what a great message.
Yeah, what a great way toexplain it to an 18-year-old.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
I know right and obviously it made an impression.
It stuck with me all theseyears.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, it's almost like she knew what she was doing
.
Yeah, had stuck with me allthese years.
Yeah, it's almost like she knewwhat she was doing.
Yeah, right, so yeah.
So you talked to me a littlebit about the rest of your time
then at the school to share someof the things that you did and
the people you met along the way.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
So typically I would stay in positions for about five
years.
When I would look back at mycareer I'm like oh, it looks
like you needed a change aboutevery five years.
I would kind of figure out whatmy position was and the
challenges.
And then I'd be at thechallenges and then I was ready

(48:22):
for something new.
So I had the opportunity towork with a severely multiply
impaired and then I transferred.
After that.
I was actually involuntarilytransferred because while I was
in the military my boyfriend atthe time was the sister to my

(48:43):
union rep, so he was stationednear Fort Sam Houston or in Fort
Sam Houston for something, andso we were able to get together
and he said you need to call mysister because they're
eliminating your position.
They're closing that schooldown because both of the nursing
homes are getting rid of thespecial needs children, because

(49:04):
they make more money withgeriatrics instead of pediatrics
, because pediatrics are there alot longer and they require a
lot more care where, yeah, Idon't even want to get into that
, but anyways.
So I had to make a decision.
While I was in Fort Sam Houstonthey gave me 10 business days.
They gave me three choices andone of the choices was to work

(49:47):
with severely mentally impairedadults.
Well, you know, being five feettall and not weighing very much
either, I wasn't really thrilledabout the options I had.
But that was the only permanentone.
So I knew the teacher and Iknew the aid and so I'm like,
well, we're just going to gowith it.
So I moved into a school one ofthe schools that my brother
also attended.
It's called Glenn H Peters inChesterfield Township, and I was
only there for about six monthsand I went to the

(50:09):
superintendent's office and Isaid there for about six months.
And I went to thesuperintendent's office and I
said this was an involuntarytransfer and I am not meeting my
students' needs because I'mafraid of them and so I'm really
doing a disservice.
And I said I go home and I cryevery night because I'm so upset

(50:30):
and disservice.
And I said I go home and I cryevery night because I'm so upset
and I just need to know whenthere's going to be another
opening somewhere else because Ireally need to transfer.
It's not fair to them and it'snot fair to me.
And shortly thereafter I hadtaken my nursing entrance exam
and that's when I gottransferred to the severely

(50:51):
emotionally impaired adolescentbuilding.
It's called neil reed highschool and that's in clinton
township, michigan, and that'swhere my husband taught, so he
was running the algebra programwhile he was working on his
master's for special ed.
Oh so.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
So now you got?
You said you got your nursingdegree.
Is that what I heard?

Speaker 2 (51:13):
No, oh, okay, when I was working towards that, oh,
okay.
Yes.
And as time went on I realizedthat in order to be a nurse, you
become an LPN back then alicensed practical nurse and it
would have been a lateral movefrom being a teacher's aid to
being a nurse's aid and I wouldhave to go back to working

(51:36):
weekends and holidays andsummers.
So it kind of was I'm like, doI really want this career?
And you know, then my husbandand I decided we were going to
start a family, so we didn'thave to worry about that aspect
anymore and I continued to takelike one class a semester here

(51:59):
and there, not while my son wasyoung, but after.
Like I said, it took me 37years to get my first general
studies associate's degree andthen I continued on and got my
degree in mass communicationsand digital video production and
photography.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Wow.
And so how?
How old were you when you gotyour degree?
Let's see your bachelor'sdegree.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
All right, you know I don't do math, so that was.
It was 2009 for the generalstudies and 2011 for the
production degree.
Video production degree.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
So did you find it easier going to school at an
older age or easier going toschool when you were younger?
Which one did you prefer?

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Oh, much older.
Yeah.
Yeah, I still had way too muchenergy before Ian was born.
Well, he took care of that.
Yeah, that's what kids do?

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I was just curious.
I got my undergrad when I was38, and then I got my master's
when I was 50.
And it was just a differentexperience than when I tried
going to college when I was 18.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, was it easier for you.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
It was easier for me because I understood the game,
but it was a little bitdifficult too, because I had to
show some restraint, uh, when itcame to some of the things that
people would say that hadn'thad the same life experiences
that I had had.
Right.
So I had to show people grace,sure.
So I think I learned thatwasn't part of the curriculum,

(53:27):
but I certainly learned it.
But it was a very tough, toughlesson to to learn to be honest
with you.
So I enjoyed it.
I wouldn't I don't think I'd doit differently, that's for sure
.
So how'd it feel like finallyget your degree, though, after
all that time?

Speaker 2 (53:42):
It was amazing.
I'm I'm so glad that my dad wasstill alive and he my brother
was able to bring him in awheelchair, so he got to see me
get my my first general studiesdegree and, um, god bless his
soul, he passed in 2010.
So he passed in between my twofinishing my two degrees and, um

(54:04):
, I didn't have money for acomputer, so I was going and
taking all these digitalphotography classes,
photojournalism, video and Ididn't have a computer.
But they had computers at thecollege, so I was actually
trained on a Mac and a PC, whichwas beneficial, but I always

(54:26):
liked the Macs better.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
I was just going to ask that question because I'm a
huge mac fan yeah, apple, ifyou're listening right but yeah,
they're just more intuitive andthere's like they have a lot
more power to them.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
I think yeah, and I I can't remember if it was the
80s or 90s.
It might have been the 90s whenthey came out with uh, it
looked like a spaceship kind oflike and it glowed yeah yeah,
the first one of the first max,and they started getting them in
at the school for the studentsbut also for the staff and

(54:58):
grades, and you know theplethora of things that we use
our computers for today, rightthey we were just getting
started.
So, yeah, I, yeah, I learned onthe Mac spaceship.
That's what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
It's funny because my younger brother owned a
computer store in Minneapolisand we went to visit him and so
this would have been in the2000s, because my kids were
still little.
And anyway, he had those.
He had a couple of those in theback room.
And he gave them to my kids andthey just loved them.
They were so cool.
They're like had the coolcolors.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
I know Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, we also had a gatewaywhen our son was young with the
cow patch gateway logo.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
I was at my sister's house a couple of weeks ago down
in Arizona and she's got agateway computer and I'm like
you got a gateway computer theydidn't make these anymore.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
I know I was shocked to hear they were still around.
Like that name is still around.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
And they're great.
I guess they're great computers.
She loves hers, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
With the, with the ginormous towers.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Nope, nope, I remember those a lot.
Uh, I think my dad, my stepdad,bought a gateway.
He was a cpa so we were likethe first people to have
computers on our block when Iwas a kid.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
but I remember the great big boxes yeah, gateway
computer that looked like cowswell, my brother-in-law is an
electrical engineer, so he kindof came over and helped us get
told us you know kind of what tobuy, where to start and yeah
because my husband was alsoteaching, so he was learning the
computer on the job, as was Iyeah, so you're kind of building

(56:36):
the plane as you were flying itat that right, exactly, exactly
.
But I thought it was fascinatingbecause I always was interested
in electronics.
In fact I I tried to get intothe air force and the navy
because I wanted to go intocommunications or learn some
type of electronic skills,because I knew electricians made
a lot of money, right?
Yeah so I thought well, if Icould get that training.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
But my math skills thought so yeah electronics,
math, they all kind of go handin hand.
And it's funny because I wasterrible at math.
But when I went into the navy Iwas a guided missile computer
technician and so I learned mathreally fast because I didn't
want to get kicked out of myschool.
But yeah, it helped me get myjob at Consumers Energy that

(57:20):
background so yeah, I got thedraw to the computers and all
that.
So you spent 30, so 35 years inthe school system.
When did you retire?

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Retired in 2018 at the age of 55.
Nice yes.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
That's a good age.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yes, the contract said 30 years service at the age
of 55.
Those were the two criteria inorder to, you know, get your
full pension Right.
And unfortunately, at 47, Iwent out on disability.
I was severely emotionallyimpaired myself after working

(58:03):
seven years with severelyemotionally impaired adolescents
.
Yeah.
At the high school level.
That was a split position.
So I was the gym assistant atthe high school for four hours.
Four classes in the morning,and then at lunchtime I'd get in
my car and drive over to themiddle school and then I had

(58:24):
eight classes in the afternoonbecause we did two classes at a
time.
Because they were, because theywere severely emotionally
impaired.
The class size was a lotsmaller and you had.
You had aides that came withthem, so that was very helpful.
But in the seven years that Iserved in that gym position, I

(58:44):
had 12 teachers come and go.
I survived seven.
Only one of them survived threeyears was the one that was long
.
They're the longest.
So 12 teachers, seven, you know.
Yeah, yeah, I'm getting allmixed up.
How did that?
How did that?
impact your, um, your home lifeit was very challenging,

(59:08):
especially my son's tumultuousteen years.
Um, he started gaining weightin the fifth grade and then by
the time he got in middle schoolhe was um, teased a lot, yeah,
and for any mother that'sheartbreaking when your kid's
being picked on and so on and soforth.
But we got through it and when Iwent out on disability he was

(59:34):
just finishing middle school andgetting ready to start high
school and I was on and offdisability for three years so I
was able to take him to schooland be more attentive to him,
because usually when I startsomething or get involved in
something, I give 110%.
Um, and I've learned throughthe years that there's

(59:58):
repercussions for that.
And um he said yeah, mom, Ididn't like you too much in the
middle school years.
I go, well, most middleschoolers don't like their
parents at that age, I said, butI was becoming out of control
emotionally myself and I didn'tknow what to do and my body
started attacking itself.
I came up with a lot of theseautoimmune that they couldn't

(01:00:24):
identify anything and you know,uh well, what's the fibromyalgia
?
yeah that's, that's everybody'sgo-to, and they can't find
anything, at least with womenand um.
So they said I had peripheralneuropathy in both my feet and
the carpal tunnel in both myhands and I had neck problems

(01:00:46):
and I was a pitcher for severalyears in my 20s and then when I
got the gym position, well, Ilove softball, so we played
softball more than we didanything else.
But with this population youcouldn't just hand them a
softball and say pitch it toyour classmate, because they'd

(01:01:07):
throw it at them, or whatever,and a lot of them hit off of a
tee.
So I was the designated pitcherand I didn't realize what I was
putting my body through, becausethen I would go play softball
at night on my teams and myprincipal came up to me he said

(01:01:28):
how many pitches do you thinkyou pitch a day?
I said, chris, I I don't reallyknow and I said I wish you'd
never asked me that question.
Now I'm really starting to thinkabout you, know yeah and so I
do have some degener, somedegeneration on my neck, inside

(01:01:48):
of my neck, but anyways, I'maging and you know all kinds of
job hazards and I'm like, yeah,all I got to pitch.
What a job hazard, what a badjob hazard.
Yeah there's a lot of worsethings out there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
I'm just curious.
So when you were off ondisability you were kind of
having some emotional problems.
Was there ever a part of youthat wondered if you were going
to have like the same problemsthat your father had?

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Absolutely, absolutely, and especially
because at 40, my dad retiredwhen he was 47 from Michigan
Bell he was offered I think itwas called a zip package at the
time because they were weaningout the old and bringing in the
less paid younger ones.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I'm familiar with that concept.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
It was recommended to him, instead of going out on
medical or mental disability, totake the zip package.
It was much more beneficial andthere wasn't all this follow up
with doc, their doctors and allthat, so, um, it was a good
decision in some ways.
Unfortunately, my dad didn'thave any.
Um, he, he didn't really doanything, didn't have any

(01:03:03):
hobbies, hobbies.
That's why I couldn't come upwith that word um yeah so he sat
around and that just gave moretime to drink and smoke yeah and
um and my mom.
When I was in middle school, mymom went back to work, um, and
that was really hard on me,being the oldest daughter, me

(01:03:26):
starting middle school, likethat's a whole new season of
life.
You're getting exposed to allthese new kids, and so I I mean
my dad was home in the evening,but he would come home and take
his couple shots of scotch andeat his dinner and as soon as he
was snoring, we partied in thebasement all night long till my
mom.
My mom wouldn't be home till,so we had to go to school.

(01:03:48):
But still I wish that I wouldhave made better decisions in
high school.
But I know I have a guardianangel, because things could have
gotten a lot worse.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, could have gotten really out of hand.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yeah, do you see?
Do you draw like some parallelsbetween?
I see some similarities betweenlike how you grew up and then
how it was when you were raisingyour family right?
Your dad left work at 47.
You were on disability at 47.
Uh, your son was pretty angrywith you through, you know,

(01:04:29):
junior high, middle schoolbecause you were sort of absent
for him, sort of like how yourmom had to be absent for you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
And I put that together.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Yeah, yeah, we, we.
I think there's a part of methat always has.
You know, I strive to not be myparents, but the older I get,
the more I realize that thosepaths sort of run parallel in
some instances.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
I just wondering if you kind of that that brings me
some comfort, because I didn'tknow how to parent that age,
because I wasn't being parentedwhen I was that age Right, and
actually my mother-in-law helpedme in that parenting arena

(01:05:12):
because she would tell myhusband remember what you did
when you were that age.
And so it's really nice whenpeople bring us back around to
reality instead of what we wantour reality to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Right.
Yeah, we have our own idea ofwhat happened, but then there's
what really happened.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
And well, my sister has struggled, as all of us do,
with mental health throughoutthe years and when she gets in a
manic state, I automatically gooh my gosh, am I like that?
Am I talking incessantly likethat?

(01:05:52):
And I, you know, how do peoplesee me?
You know that has been aconcern of mine throughout my
life and trying to make my wayin the business world and
starting my own um media montageproduction company, um, I just
realized I, I am not cut out forthis and the business world

(01:06:17):
teaches you different things anddifferent leadership styles.
Right, that it, it didn'talways like jive with me and I
would think, well, that's aninteresting statement.
I, I don't think I agree withthat.
And so it actually gave me theopportunity to see things for

(01:06:42):
what they really were and toestablish my own opinion as an
adult and go oh okay, you don'tneed people to keep validating
you all the time, but I do.
I stay in counseling for thatsimple fact because I don't want
to go back, you know, into thewrong mindset.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
I should say Right, right, well, no, as a suicide
survivor myself, I can tell whenI'm starting to go down a
rabbit hole again.
You know, I don't want to bethere.
Right, yeah, so you retired atthe ripe old age of 55.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
And then you.
So you went into business foryourself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Yes, while I was on disability, I found out that I
had a gluten intolerance.
A chiropractor diagnosed it andI wasn't celiac but had had a
build-up, and it always haddigestive issues my whole life.

(01:07:48):
Right and um, it had reachedits peak and so my body was like
you can't keep doing this to me.
I'm gonna fight you back likeI'm in control, you or, and yeah
.
So one of those years when Iwas on disability, my motto was
I'm so not in control, and in away, it was a time of peace,

(01:08:13):
because then I could say oh,this is what it's like to let
God lead you and not think thatyou've got it all figured out,
or that you have to get it allfigured out.
Yeah, you know, and you don'thave to be perfect, you don't
have to fit into every littlebox that people want to put you

(01:08:34):
in.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
I used to work for someone who said she actually
sent me a picture.
I think I have it in my officesomewhere, but anyway it's.
It says you know, I know thatblessings are coming my way, but
the how is none of my business,Right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Yep, so you sometimes .
Well, control is just a fallacy.
Anyway, it's something to makeus feel better, but we're never
in control of anything, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
It's just not how it works.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
So you learned that hard lesson.
I mean, this sounds like a lotof stuff happened at 47 and um,
so what made you decide to gointo business then?

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
well, I wanted to have a plan b and I thought well
, if I'm going to be doingphotography and video?
Fortunately, before I had ourson, we had rented a small
little.
It was a cottage.
It was 500 square feet and theyput a furnace in in the middle

(01:09:33):
of the house and you had to walksideways to get into the
bathroom.
And anyways, the neighbor KittyCorner from us, had his own
video company TerraVisions iswhat he called it, you know and
he had the big old VHS cameras,put it over your shoulder, yeah,

(01:09:54):
like a boombox kind of yeah.
So one summer, when I met himand realized that he did, that
he needed some help, andrealized that he did that he
needed some help.
So he took me under his wingand he was a retired Border
Patrol electrician and he alsoserved in the Navy, and I don't

(01:10:16):
know why.
I didn't find that significant,aside from the fact that I
never viewed myself as a veteranand I never owned or claimed or
touted that I was combat medicin the army national guard.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
I just did what I did because I did it right, you did
it, you got out and you movedon yeah and uh.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
it wasn't until 2018, after I retired, that I started
tapping in, re-tapping into theveteran community, met a woman
who helped me on my veteranstatus and I was told that
guardsmen aren't, you're not aveteran Like, because I don't,

(01:11:00):
I'm not eligible for benefits.
And I said, well, I stillserved in the regular army when
I did my training, yeah, youknow.
And later on I found that theperson that said that to me
didn't know what they weretalking about, or they just
didn't want to deal with that atthe moment when I came into the

(01:11:22):
office.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Yeah.
Well, here's the thing too, andthis is something that I've
changed the way that I talk,because I was a veterans program
manager for four years, and soI don't ask people if they're
veterans anymore.
I ask them, if they served,okay Right.
If they served, okay Right.

(01:11:44):
Because there is that thoughtprocess that, unless I was in
combat, I'm not really a veteran, which is totally not true, um,
but if you ask people if theyserved, they served, you served.
I mean, you're a veteran butyou served, and so that's a lot
easier question to answer.
You know, hey, did you serve?
Yep, I did, I did, um.
People are much more likely toright to come out and talk about

(01:12:05):
it at that point, but that theword veteran has a lot of
different connotations.
I mean, I know it's in our nameveterans archives but, um, the
first question I ask people isdid you serve?
And I talked to people who, um,who.
I interviewed a guy a fewmonths ago, um, who didn't make
it out of bootcamp he served for, for he was in bootcamp and he

(01:12:29):
got injured really bad, so hewas in the military for a while
recuperating Um, and he's now atthe Michigan veterans home, uh,
because he was on active dutyand, because of the time, the
amount of time he was in hequalified for benefits, which is
a little bit different, butamount of time he was in he

(01:12:49):
qualified for benefits, okay,which is a little bit different.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
But my, my point is that I talked to people who
served for 40 years and I talkedto people who served for a year
and a half and, um, they're allveterans to me.
Well, I have a girlfriend, dawn.
That same way I don't know ifshe completed basic or she left,
it doesn't matter I said, dawn,you signed on the dotted line,
you gave your life for yourcountry, you laid your life down
for your country.
I don't care how long or whereyou, what you did or why or

(01:13:13):
anything.
And so she's finally coming outto female veteran events and,
um, yeah, she's just, she's likethe life of the party.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
I just love her to death, yeah, I mean anytime,
that anytime someone has served,they've signed a blank check
for their country, right, andthat's the important distinction
.
Now, people may disagree withme, and that's okay, cause we're
not all going to agree oneverything, so yeah.
Right, so anyway.
So you meet this guy.
He does video production, hewas in the Navy and at some

(01:13:45):
point someone talks you into thefact that you are a veteran.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Yes.
So having that background, withmy neighbor, macomb Community
College put in the newspaperthat they just had this
state-of-the-art studio put inat the college and they were
starting video productiondegrees.

(01:14:09):
Wow, and like that's what Iwant to do.
That's what I want to do when Igrow up.
So, and I never want to grow upRight, of course not, but um,
so that was my plan B.
If I was to retire at 55 and Iwould have I would still have a

(01:14:33):
purpose and have something tooccupy my time, something to
challenge me and still serve.
Yeah, you know, and and Ireally did not have this part of
my life planned, I didn't have,you know, aside from, like,

(01:14:54):
finishing my degree and lovingphotography and video and
wanting to be a part of thatindustry, um, even though it's
predominantly male, um, thatdidn't matter to me because I, I
felt like I had an eye and aand a feel for it.
Yeah, so, um, where are wegoing from?

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
there.
So we're talking about.
You started your business.
Um, it sounds like you learnedsome things from that and
realized that that's notnecessarily what you wanted to
do.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Right when I was diagnosed with the gluten
intolerance, my good friend,simone I spoke of her earlier
who invited my husband to singin the choir.
Yeah, her and I have stayedfriends and we raised our kids
together but she had invited meto this health and wellness
class that she was part of.

(01:15:47):
She said I just joined thisorganization, it's called
Arbonne International and it's ahealth and wellness company.
And she goes I'd really likefor you to come, because it's
all plant-based and it'sgluten-free.
And I said, well, another,another, divine I look at them
as divine intervention right,like was something I needed at

(01:16:10):
the time.
So I'm like, yes, I'll be there.
And I had been so sick that weekand I was starting to feel
better I was hesitant to go, butit was like you need to go and
I was pretty low because I'dbeen on disability and I was
starting to get back to work.
And she invited me to thisthing and I fell in love with

(01:16:30):
Arbonne International and theyoffered you could become a
consultant for $35.
And they had Arbonne Universityyou could learn all about this
health and wellness.
It's exactly what I needed toget my body back, you know, and
my mind.
But, um, so I am still aconsultant for Arbonne

(01:16:55):
International.
That was in 2012 when I wasintroduced, became a consultant
shortly thereafter and I'm not asalesperson I give the farm
away before I make any money andso that but I thought it was

(01:17:17):
going to be a good businessfoundation for me to learn how
to order things online, how tokeep track of a client list, how
to find leads.
So there was a lot I learnedalong the way that was totally
different than teaching specialed.
And I'd been to a seminar andthey were talking about this

(01:17:40):
wheel of occupations and theywere saying how sometimes our
wheels aren't aligned and we'rein a position that we're really
not cut out for and sometimes wedon't know how to get out of it
because we can't afford it.
You know, or you know, multitudeof circumstances.

(01:18:01):
So, anyways, I was gratefulthat I had that experience and
basically at the end of myArbonne consulting or trying to
get the business part of itgoing I was asked to step down
because I totally did not agreewith my upline and how she lied

(01:18:24):
to customers and tried to upsellthem about this and that and I
mean these were my close friendsand relatives, you know what I
mean and I had a totallydifferent relationship with
people than she did.
Yeah and um.
So I found out that I could bowout for six months and then I
could come back in undersomebody else.

(01:18:45):
So that's exactly what I didand that's.
I'm still with the organizationbecause I really do believe in
the product.
I just don't believe in theirbusiness model.
Right and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Yeah yeah, so we're um this is right like, right
around.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
What like 2018, 2019, then is that kind of where
we're at um time timeline wisethat's when I retired.
Yeah, and um, I had met a girlby the name of shelly rude.
She runs the female peersupport groups for the state of
Michigan.
It's a grant program andthere's several chapters that
have started around the state,and so she hired me for $14 an

(01:19:35):
hour to help recruit women vets.
And I had started going andworking and volunteering for
resource fairs and this and that.
And one of the resource fairs Iran into, jeffrey Devere to me
to volunteer for a non-profitveteran organization to do pro

(01:20:09):
bono photography and video, andhe and he said you just found
one with his big, deep voice.
And, uh, so Jeffrey has beenone of my, um, I want to say
counselors, because he reallyhas, you know, counseled and he
always checks up on me.

(01:20:30):
You know, he's just one ofthose people that also came home
from the air force and wasn'table to make good decisions for
himself.
And, uh, one of the treatmentcourt um, I don't know if it was
the attorney or the judge, I'mthinking it was one of the
judges and she saw the potentialhe had and so she fed him and

(01:20:58):
gave him what he needed to gethis life back in order, and so
now he's doing what you're doing.
Yes, I was doing the resourcefairs and volunteered for
Michigan Veteran Affairs Agencyas a buddy to buddy and because

(01:21:19):
I love people and it's just likeI don't want to do sales.
And I tried a couple of jobs.
I worked at Selfridge for fourmonths and I worked for the
Michigan veteran trust fund forfour months.
I was nuts and my husband'slike you know, you really don't
have to work and I'm like, okay,I just needed to hear you say

(01:21:42):
that, right.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
So we have talked about a lot of things in life.
Yes, we have Tons of stuff and,you know, as we get close to
wrapping up, I want to make surethat we've covered everything
you want to talk about.
So is there anything that youwant to talk about that we
haven't talked about?

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Well, I can talk to the cows come home.
So I think you have guided meand led me and got me back on
track.
I guess the one thing that youknow, the one message that I
would like to get out is it'sokay to not be okay like you're

(01:22:19):
saying.
I know it's kind of cliche now,but it's in those moments when
we're not okay that we needsomebody else to tell us that
it's okay to not be okay.
And you know you're not crazy.
No, you're not crazy.
And even if you were, it's justa season in time.

(01:22:41):
You're not crazy.
And even if you were, it's justa season in time.
And I've been in and out of thecraziness in my head so many
times and you need to go back tothose times because you're a
survivor, you're resilient,you're strong and you don't want
to give up.
Nobody wants to give up, but bethe person that cares and that

(01:23:05):
listens, and that's what we dofor each other as veterans.
You know, just be the listeningear and you don't even have to
say anything, and that's whatI'm learning more and more.
I'm learning how to be a muchbetter listener, because I don't
need any help talking, that'sfor sure, but, um, I don't know,

(01:23:31):
I don't, I don't really knowhow to end this, because I've
enjoyed it so much.
I've enjoyed getting to knowyou a little bit as well, and,
um, I'll look forward tolistening to your interview.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
Yes, that's coming up .

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
Is it?
Oh, I thought maybe it wasalready on your website.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
So there is a on our podcast.
There is an interview that Idid with Talking Dog Pictures.
They're a video production thatworks for nonprofits, so that's
out there.
But my son is coming to see mefor Father's Day weekend.
He's a veteran and so my planis we're going to record his

(01:24:09):
story and then he's going tointerview me, so that'll be the
one to look for.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
Wow, that's amazing.
I just assumed that yours wasalready done.
I mean, I know you said youhave had opportunities to tell
your story, but I don't know ifany.
I didn't know if anybody justassumed you.
Somebody recorded you by now.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
Well, yes, so if you go out to themothorg, I have a
couple stories out there.
They've featured them duringVeterans Day actually.
And then there's the USA TodayStorytellers Project.
There's some stories out thereas well.
But just to sit down and dowhat we've done I haven't done

(01:24:53):
that yet because I'm theinterviewer, but I've got to get
somebody to do it for me, and Ithink my son will be
interviewing me very soon, soI'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
What a great Father's Day present.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I've had some great ones overthe years.
I mean I think my son will beinterviewing me very soon, so
I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
What a great Father's Day present.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
I've had some great ones over the years, but I think
this will be a really good one.

Speaker 1 (01:25:08):
How old is your son?
Oh gosh, he was born in 88.
So he will be 37 this year.
No 30.
1988, 25.
37.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
Yeah, 37.
37, yeah, 37 yeah, you got itright the first time I did.
I see, your math isn't all asbad as you thought it was, is it
?
No, and that was one thing thatI realized when I was selling
or trying to sell our bond.
Like, my math is fine when Ineed it.
Yeah, you know, I, I convincedmyself, you know that I just

(01:25:44):
couldn't learn it.
You know da-da-da-da-da.
And that was one of the thingsI gained from doing that little
aspect in my life.
And I want to put a plug out,if that's okay.
Oh yeah absolutely.
I'd like to put a plug out tothe Woven National Women's group
of veterans.
Women Veteran Network isbasically like the acronym or

(01:26:09):
whatever, but the word woven, itkeeps us.
We're all entwined together inour lives, especially veterans,
in a very unique way and theyoffer peer support, training,
but they also keep us connected,keep us woven, and I mean I

(01:26:31):
have friends in North Carolinathat I've never met.
They're all over the UnitedStates.
In fact, june 7th, woven ishaving a women recognition
opportunity because it's on aSaturday and so we do like Woven
birthday celebrations on aSaturday, like from 10 to 2.
And you don't have to be amember, you can just get on and

(01:26:56):
you just go to wovenorg,w-o-v-e-norg and all the
information.
Just keep doing all thedrop-downs and you'll find the
information you need to become amember or to get hooked up with
a buddy.
There's also the Women VeteranPeer Support that I mentioned,

(01:27:16):
that is available throughout thestate of Michigan and that you
can find at Women VeteransStrong.
I believe that's a com, or youcan just Google Shelly Rood and
she's the one that started theprogram.
I don't know who wrote thegrant, but she's the one that's

(01:27:38):
maintaining it as well.
And then there is she's the onethat's maintaining it as well.
And then there is I mentionedno Veteran Left Behind with
Jeffrey Dovrow in Detroit.
And there is WINK Women inCombat, which is located in

(01:27:59):
Lexington.
No, not Lexington Ludington.
I get those mixed up because Ilive near Lexington.
No, not Lexington Ludington.

Speaker 3 (01:28:07):
I get those mixed up because I live near Lexington,
so I say that one first but it'sLudington, michigan, for the
women in combat and you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
You don't have to have served in combat, it's for
all women veterans.
It was just the acronym whenthat was created, because it was
created by a woman thatsuffered severe trauma and
created that organization tohelp support women vets.
And she, her name, is ZanettaAdams.
You may have heard of her.
She was the director of theMichigan Veteran Affairs Agency.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
I interviewed her when I did a podcast for
Consumers Energy.
I know Zanetta.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Oh, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
I've got to get her back in here to do her whole
story though.

Speaker 2 (01:28:49):
Yes, well, she's making strides for all of us
veterans in Washington becauseshe was replaced by somebody in
Michigan, because she had thisother awesome opportunity that
was given to her to, uh you know, get a voice for us women
veterans.
And I want to mention AlexisDeRizzo, who runs Motown Women

(01:29:15):
Veterans and, um, she is.
She wants to get women outbecause we isolate ourselves.
All veterans can get intoperiods where we isolate and
just want to stay in our owncomfort zones, and so she plans

(01:29:36):
trips.
There's a Myrtle Beach trip.
There's this retreat I'm goingto this week, four nights and
five days in Petwater, michigan,and we just did a first-ever
female veteran fashion show downat Masonic Temple in Detroit,

(01:29:58):
which was a blast and a lot ofwork for Alexis, but I can't say
enough about what a greatexperience it was.

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
Oh, very good.
So lots of organizations outthere to help veterans.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
That's great.
Well, I appreciate you comingin.
It's been great getting to knowyou.
You kind of flipped that overon me but, yeah, great getting
to know you.
Thanks for spending a Thursdayafternoon with me and have so
much fun at your retreat and Ilook forward to kind of hearing
how that went.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
Thank you very much, appreciate you.

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