From Lawn Darts To Hellfires: Childhood Chaos Meets Army Aviation (Jerry Binning)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Today is Thursday, October 16th, 2025.
We're talking with JerryBenning, who served United
States Army.
So good afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07):
Good afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07):
Happy to be here.
Thanks for making the trip upfrom Charlotte.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
Uh no problem.
Or some people call itCharlotte.
Exactly.
Well, if you don't want to spellit, say Charlotte.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Exactly.
People will understand.
Um so we'll start out realsimple today.
When and where were you born?

SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
I was born in Wood River, Illinois, uh, 1960.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
Okay.
Now, did you grow up in WoodRiver then?

SPEAKER_03 (01:31):
I spent three years there.
I don't remember much of that.
All right.
Where'd you go from there?
And we moved to Charlotte,Michigan uh after that.
Okay.
So I went to school all through,you know, the Charlotte school
system.

SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
All right.
Now tell me a little bit aboutgrowing up.
Did you have uh brothers andsisters?

SPEAKER_03 (01:51):
Okay, I had an older sister.
She was a half sibling on mydad's side, and uh a year
younger sister that that livedwith us.
Ended up uh my parents gotdivorced and ended up with a
younger sibling, brother, eightyears younger than me.
So Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
And did they all stay right in that Charlotte
area?

SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Uh no.
Just just me right now.
Okay.
Her sister was here until abouttwo years ago.
She moved to Florida.
Side as she liked warm weather.
Yeah, I have a brother and asister that both did that.

SPEAKER_01 (02:26):
They were in Arizona, so understand that.
Well, talk to me about growingup.
What was it like uh growing upin the 60s in uh in Charlotte,
Michigan?

SPEAKER_03 (02:35):
Uh well, I like seeing a lot of this stuff on
YouTube and whatever, as far asgrowing up back then and you
know, drinking out of fountainhoses, uh being kicked out of
the house, just as long asyou're back before dark.
Uh, you know, basically just uhran wild.

SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Yeah, I remember those days like you would uh
because I was born in 65, so nottoo far behind you.
Um, but yeah, look you the whenthe streetlights came on, you
knew it was time to go home.

SPEAKER_03 (03:02):
Oh yeah.
And uh I was watching HenryWinkler on a new program he does
about how dangerous things were.
You know, he did he did coveredtoys with uh with lawn darts,
which uh I don't really rememberanybody using them the way they
were supposed to be used, isjust throw them up in the air
and hope not to get hit.
Yeah, I remember throwing themup and then everyone would run.

(03:25):
Right, right, right.
And you know, I don't know ifyou remember the clackers.

SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Yeah, you'd be clacking away at those and then
they'd just disintegrate.
Yeah.
Yeah, or you'd hit yourself inthe I don't know.
I guess you're gonna be able todo that.
Oh yeah, I've done that too.
Yeah, or especially the wrist.
I had some nasty bruises aroundmy hand and wrist.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Did you ever did you ever uh so this was probably 70s
era, but do you remember the umIl Kinevel stunt cycle?
Yes.
Did you ever did you ever havethe pleasure of owning one of
those?
Oh I Oh, you missed out.
Yeah.
That was pretty cool.
Yeah, and I remember toys allhad sharp edges too.
They were made out of everyonehad sharp edges.

SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
I remember riding back in the back of a pickup
truck, too.
I was like, all right, you kids,y'all get back there.
And I remember my stepmom onetime, I think we was backing out
of an ice cream joint orsomething, and she backed out,
and before she came to acomplete stop, she dropped it
and drive and hit the gas, andwe just went flying up against
the tailgate.
Thankfully it it didn't comeopen.

SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Right.
Back when they made cars thatthat lasted, right?
Right.
Well, talk to me a little bitabout school then.

SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
Uh don't remember a whole lot about school.
I mean, it was just uh I was Idid the sports thing and you
know um softball, baseball,basketball, PV football.
I was pretty much involved inall the sports until I got to
high school.

(04:55):
And then I was more interestedin making money than playing on
the football team.

SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Okay.
Did you go right to work thenwhen you got to high school?

SPEAKER_03 (05:02):
Uh pretty much, yeah.
Started working at a pizzajoint.
Uh started out making pizzas andyou know, like doing the the
waiter thing, but then I kindagraduated to pizza delivery,
which is a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
There's some good money to be made in pizza
delivery.

SPEAKER_03 (05:23):
Well, and then the size of my town, which uh was
probably you know around 17,000,15,000, 17,000 back then.
It was, you know, easier tomemorize all the streets and
whatnot.

SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
So was that back when they had like the
guaranteed 30-minute delivery orsomething?

SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
Uh no, that came out later.
That was after I got away fromthat.
But yeah, so it wasn't weweren't exactly racing to to to
get to the place, but Charlottehas railroads that go through it
where sometimes you know you'dbe making delivery and you'd get
caught, you know, behind arailroad or whatever.
Oh, yeah.
Or a train going through.
And then they'd complain, well,what took you so long?

(06:03):
The train, you didn't hear it?

SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
It's a little loud.
Right.
Yeah.
So you uh you make it throughhigh school and uh did you
graduate?
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (06:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
And uh what what happens after high school?

SPEAKER_03 (06:17):
Okay, well, after high school, um I remember
having like two and then threedifferent part-time jobs.
I told them all I had twopart-time jobs that they had to
schedule with when I wasbasically juggling three.
Uh anyway, so I ended up gettinga manufacturing job after that.

(06:40):
And I don't know, things weregoing good.
I was making pretty decentmoney, and then uh I got laid
off from that, and it's like,well, it w it was hard, kind of
depressed back then as far asfinding good paying jobs.

SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
I'm not exactly sure how it is now, but I think it's
about the same.
And uh anyways, my stepdad wasNational Guard, Army.
He's like, You should go on youshould go into service.
And my cousin, who's a yearolder than me, had joined the
Air Force.
So I was thinking about going tothe Air Force myself.

(07:15):
And he's like, uh, have an armyrecruiter there with you.
You know, just to play them offof each other.
Well, and I Army recruiters cantalk circles around Air Force
recruiters as far as I'mconcerned.
And anyway, so that's the way Iended up going.
Uh I can't exactly remember whatI went through, but I remember

(07:36):
having to go to Detroit, uh themap station, and you know, they
do written tests and they dophysical tests and and and that
and whatever.
I got all through with that andI was talking to a sergeant, and
he says, Oh, so you want to be atanker?
Uh no.
I'm enlisting to be a dieselmechanic.
Uh, well, you need to talk toyour recruiter then, because

(07:59):
he's got you down here as atanker, uh, 19 Delta at the
time.

SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (08:04):
And anyway, so I did talk to him on the way back.
I'm like, they tell me I'm gonnabe a tanker.
It's like, well, yeah, that'sthat's right.
He's like, uh, well, they havediesel engines and you're sure
to work on them.
Spoken like a true recruiter.
Oh, yeah.
I was I was a little bit miffed,yeah, to say the least.
But I, you know, I didn't have ajob and I did want to get out of

(08:25):
there.
You know, I handed up after Ilost my job, had to move back
home with my parents, and it'slike they weren't happy about
it.
I wasn't happy about it.
So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
Now, do you stay at that really nice hotel?
What's it called?
I think we stayed at the MarinerHotel when I went to Detroit.
It was terrible.

SPEAKER_03 (08:41):
I I really don't remember the hotel much, other
than there was somebody yellingin the hallway wanting someone
to to drink with them.
Yeah.
Thinking tequila.
I don't know.
I didn't get involved.

SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
But I think they hire someone to do that because
I think I had that sameexperience.

SPEAKER_03 (08:56):
Like, no, I don't want to be doing that.
Yeah.
Anyway.

unknown (08:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (09:00):
Yeah.
So I did end up being a tanker.

SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (09:02):
Uh a driver.
Yeah, they sent me down to FortKnox.
Um, where'd you do basic?
It was at Fort Knox.

SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
Oh, right at Fort Knox.
Right.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
Well, you know, I wanted to go in right away, and
uh, they said like you can go intoday.
We'll take you right now, youknow, if you want to go to
Korea.
It's like, no, I don't think Iwant to go to Korea, you know.
I don't have any experience withthe military, and I'd, you know,
pretty much prefer to staystateside.
I'm gonna I want to staystateside.
So they said, well, you know,come back in like a 30 days or

(09:32):
whatever, and uh you go to FortHood, Texas.
And so anyway, like I say, Iwent to Fort Knox, and have you
ever seen the movie Stripes,Bill Murray?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They get off the bus and they gointo this dilapidated looking
building with signs all over itand stuff like that.
It's it was like the exact samething for me.

(09:53):
I got off a bus right there, itwas, I don't know, maybe 11 30,
midnight, something like that.
Go into that building, uh, getyelled at.
Of course.
And uh I don't know, I don'tthink they finished until around
two o'clock in the morning.
It's like, wow, I'm not likingthis so far.
But those those buildings theyshowed in that movie is exactly

(10:13):
what what was there when I wasthere.

SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Wow.
Yeah.
So you so did that movie comeout before you went to basic?
I'm trying to remember the time.
After was it after?
Okay.
Yeah, see, I get good because wegot that five-year difference,
so that's that's where I'mgetting thrown off.
So you get there, they they'reyelling at you, it's two o'clock
in the morning, and you start tomaybe rethink your your
decision.

SPEAKER_03 (10:36):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was I was kind of like forcedgump on that one.

SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
It's like, uh, maybe the army isn't the place for me,
but right.
But you uh got there.
Anything stick out in your mindabout basic training?

SPEAKER_03 (10:49):
Uh uh, this is my weapon, this is my gun.
I'm sure you heard that one.
Oh, yeah.
This is for fighting, this isfor fun.
Yep.
Uh that sticks out.
Uh learning to march.
We had some some Marines thattook basic there too.
And it's like they marchedeverywhere at half stop.

(11:10):
I mean, granted, my time they'refinished, they march really
well, they look good together.

SPEAKER_02 (11:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:16):
But I'm like, I'm thinking, I'm glad I'm not a
Marine, which my youngerbrother, he went Marines.

SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
Yeah, it's funny how the different services, like you
can tell, like when I went fromthe Navy to the Army, people
knew I had been in the Navy bythe way I marched.
Ah, okay, right.
They could like pick it out.
I'm like, I don't even know whatyou guys are talking about.
I'm just marching.
Yeah.
So you get through basic andthen is your was your AIT right
there at Yes, it was all oneunit.

SPEAKER_03 (11:43):
It was uh supposed to be three phases.
Uh-huh.
Um, you know, the first phase,how many other weeks it was?
I'm I'm gonna say four, but I'mI don't really remember.
It's a while back.
Yeah, it's been a few years.
You go through the first phaseand you can't have nothing at
the mess hall but milk and waterand and uh you know you pretty
much don't have any liberties.

(12:03):
Uh and then you go to the secondphase, you get uh like brigade
passes where you can go to thePX and stuff like that.
Uh and then uh the third phaseis like AIT have a lot more
liberties after that, but wekept screwing up.
We were the black sheep.
Uh we'd we'd come out of onephase, we would overdo, mess up,

(12:25):
and they put us back in phaseone.
And so my pretty much the wholething was spent in phase one for
me, because we went, you know,we went from phase one to phase
three and did the same thing.
It's like you couldn't give usany liberties where we didn't
just take a mile.

SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
You got really good at phase one, though, right?

SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Well, great.
And then you so you finish upAIT and then uh where do you go
from there?

SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
Uh I did want to tell one story before we finish
uh Christmas fell before I gotbefore I finished down there.
So we, you know, we basicallygot to borrow some leave time,
and I went back home to my seemy family.
Uh anyway, sitting down todinner, I was usually uh the

(13:12):
first one to the table and thelast one to leave.
I was a slow eater.
I was not a slow eater after somany weeks in the army because
if if you ate slow, you didn'teat.
Right.
So anyway, I come home and youknow it's it's home cooked food,
so it's good, and I'm justtearing it up, but not realizing

(13:33):
it.
I grab seconds, tear it up,grab, grab thirds, I think the
last whatever was there orwhatever, and I look up at my
family, and they're all juststaring at me like, oh my, this
is not the same person that lefthere how many ever weeks ago.
I think there were sparks comingoff my plate, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
That's highly possible.

SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
Anyway, it's like, oh, okay.
Better slow down on eating.
Try to be normal.
Right.
Some things have changed, right?
Right.
Well, I just remember, you know,like I say, if you didn't eat
fast, you didn't eat.
Yeah.
Especially if you're like one ofthe last ones in.

SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Did they do the thing where like when the last
person sat down, the firstperson had to get up in the
Choha?
I I vaguely remember somethinglike that when I was in basic
training.

SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
I don't remember that so much, but uh I just know
you had to be extremely fast ifyou were like one of the last
few people to get in, because Idon't know, I didn't time it.
Maybe they did, I don't know theuh drill sergeants, but it's
like, okay, so-and-so on yourfeet, we're out of here.
And I mean it was you had to getif because if you didn't get up

(14:39):
and start moving right then, youwere in trouble.
Right.
Yeah, they weren't messingaround with that kind of thing,
were they?
They were not.

SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Well, it's so is there anything else uh you want
to talk about uh through thatbase basic training AIT time
frame?
Uh no.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
So where do you go after uh AIT?
Did you come did you come homeagain?

SPEAKER_03 (15:04):
Or did you just go okay?
I come home and uh I had aactually I had a pickup truck at
home and my stepdad uh uh endedup selling that for me and
getting me a car.
Or, you know, it was actuallyhis mother's car, so it was a
poor galaxy anyways.
Like I think I'd prefer to havea a car over a truck and drove

(15:29):
down to Fort Hood.
Which had an interestinteresting story on that too.
They had like a snow slash icestorm, you know, out midwest
down into the down into Texas,and uh uh I was on a road in
Oklahoma and there were likepotholes in the road.

(15:52):
And with this ice on there, Imean it was just real terrible.
And I remember hitting this onepothole that actually busted the
belts on my tire and and dentedthe rim.
And but I had to I had to keepgoing, you know, because I only
had so much time to get downthere, and it's like, wow, this
is scary.
Yeah, because they don't want tohear your excuses when you get
down there.

(16:13):
Didn't you watch the weather?
It's like, yeah, it wasterrible.

SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Exactly.
That must have been a terrifyingdrive down.
It was.
It was, but I made it.

SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
And what was it what was it like for Hood then?

SPEAKER_03 (16:27):
Well, it was different.
I was, you know, I was raised inMichigan where you have four
seasons.
Uh, you know, you watch the thetrees change and and whatnot,
and you get down to Texas andit's like pretty much summer and
winter.

SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
And uh it was ungodly hot in the summer.
But I was I know I wasstationed, my first unit was uh
second to the fifth cav.
Uh and at Fort Hood they had uhthe Cav and then they had the
armor unit different sides ofthe of the base, and then I
think they had three corps orsomething like that there.

(17:05):
But uh so I went into second tothe fifth cav, and this was the
unit that was designated to testthe XM1, which is the first
production models of the of theM1 tank.

SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
You know, it hadn't been accepted by the Army yet,
they have to test it first.
Right.
Give it to us and see if we canbreak it.
So uh anyway, when I was firstthere, I think it might have
been maybe about a year beforewe got the XM1.
But uh anyway, we had to rebuildthe M60s, uh M60A1s, I think

(17:40):
they were.
You know, we had to put brandnew track on them and basically
replace whatever was replaceableon it.
Well, when when we had to dothat, Texas had a heat wave at
that time.
It was over 100 degrees for overa hundred days.
And so you'd be down in themotor pool and you you set this

(18:01):
big crescent wrench down orsomething like that, or a
tankers bar or something likethat, and you go to grab it like
30 seconds later and it wouldburn your hand.
Wow.
So yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Did you get some pot holders or something at the PX
to take care of that?

SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
No, they they changed their hours where we
started going down there in themorning uh before light, and
then I think we were pretty muchfinished uh before noon, by noon
or before noon, and then we wentback in there in the evening, so
kind of like split shifts, butyeah, they just it was really,
really hard to work with thatheat, you know, and and you not

(18:36):
being able to hold on to toolsand stuff.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, you can almost fry an eggon the sidewalk, couldn't you?
Absolutely.

unknown (18:43):
Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Just so I know where to clip that out.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh no, no, that's that's that'swhy we do it this way, right?
Right.
Um, so okay.
So what was the rest of yourtime like at uh at Fort Hood
then?
What kinds of what what kind ofduties did you have?
What kind of things did you do?

SPEAKER_03 (19:12):
Uh it was pretty much all that when we got to
XM1.
Uh huh.
It was because I mean we we gotit and uh like a little bit of
training on it and whatnot, andwe moved to the field uh for
like six months straight.
Uh we'd come back in every threeto five days, you know, because
we had married people.
Right.
It's like uh go home, see yourwife, be back in the morning.

(19:33):
That's nice.
Or go see your family.
Right, you know.
Right.
But uh I know one thing I didn'tlike about it, you know, it
wasn't too bad at first, butthen towards the end they got to
everybody wanted to see them.
You know, senators, congressmen,generals, and it's like, oh, I
gotta see this so they wanted tojust be uh parade ready as far

(19:56):
as how we looked.
Yeah.
You know, spit sign boots, uhand all that.
And you know, but we we wereliving in the field, so yeah,
you were still working.

SPEAKER_01 (20:06):
So anyway, yeah.
Every day's a dog and pony showwhen you're doing that kind of
stuff, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
I always wonder what that meant,because we said it all the time,
but I didn't really get what itmeant.
But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (20:19):
Yeah, well, that's pretty much it.
It's like, yeah, you gotta bespit shine and prayed you're
prayed ready or whatever, andyou you know, and you're living
in the field.
Yeah.
Yeah, it doesn't work very well.

SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
And so how long did you how long were you at Fort
Hood?

SPEAKER_03 (20:33):
Uh I was at Fort Hood for three and a half years,
I think.
Because I mean my enlistment wasthree years.
Right.
And I had made it through all Imean, I started out driving on
the M60, I ended up being adriver on the M1, and then as I

(20:57):
progressed to uh spec four, Iended up getting special duty
where they wanted me to be aJeep driver for for our EXO
executive officer.
So I'm like, okay, I can dothat.
So I drove for him for a verybrief period before I went on
leave.
Come back from leave, andeverybody says, hey, guess what?

(21:18):
You're the CO's driver now.
Like, no, no, you mean XO.
No, no, no, you're the CO'sdriver.
Apparently the driver he haddidn't know how to drive a
stick.

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Oh.

SPEAKER_03 (21:28):
And you know, pretty much uh the commander had to
have a driver that could A reada map, drive a stick, and be
able to talk on the radio.
And I could do all that.

SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
So well, and and the thing I don't think a lot of
people know is like officersaren't supposed to drive.
Right, right.
Correct.
That's that's enlisted workthere.
Then and it's there's I've beentold a few times.
Get out of there.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, I want to go back alittle bit though.
Tell me, what was it like to todrive a tank?

SPEAKER_03 (22:00):
Uh it was a little bit difficult at first.
I mean, especially when you'rebuttoned up, you can't see much
outside.
Right.
Uh I have this this one dealwhere I had switched tank
commanders, um, had a platoonsergeant who I'm not exactly
sure where he went, but I endedup with a new platoon sergeant,
and they, you know, theyoperated up there differently.

(22:22):
And I kept trying to tell thenew guy, it's like, look, if
you, you know, if I can't seewell enough or whatever, and you
want me to turn hard right, youhave to tell me turn hard right.
Don't just tell me turn right,because I'm gonna, you know,
turn right a little bit and thenlet go.

SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
And uh anyway, I don't know.
We had somebody in the tank withus, somebody that wanted to see
the M1s.
And I'm following other tanks inthe in the trailer, whatever.
And you have to imagine FortHood, it's all dry and dusty or
whatever.
It's basically the desert.

SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (22:56):
So I'm driving along, and all I see in front of
me is dirt, dust flying.
So uh we're coming up on a turn.
He says left turn.
So I turn left and straightenout, and he's like, no, no, no,
hard left, hard left.
Well, by the time it cleared, sowe ended up hitting a ditch, but
uh thankfully no one got hurt.

(23:17):
Yeah.
Uh it it was the suspensionsystem on the M1 is is pretty
amazing.
You uh wouldn't think much aboutit unless you probably came from
an M60 or like an M113.
Those things are terrible.
I mean like riding a graveltruck or something like that.
Oh man, they just jar yourteeth.
Yeah.
And then the M1, which is smoothand rock and roll.

(23:39):
And actually got one airborne uhshortly after we first got out.
We hit the I hit this ditch, andit's like, oh, that was neat.
I want to try it faster.
And my tank commander wasyelling at me, and it's like,
uh, hang on.
So I did a little bit faster,and I think the first half of
the road wheels came off thattime.
It's like, oh, okay, one moretime, and this time he's he's

(24:00):
with me.
He's like, Okay, let's hit itagain.
Did it pretty much full bore anduh it left the ground?
Wow.
Oh, that's awesome.
Well, you're supposed to testthem, right?
Well, right?
You were just doing your job.
I was.
That was one of my goodmemories.

SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so when you're you whenyou're driving, it's like a
little portal or something tolook at, because I'm not really
familiar with tanks, or do youhave like a periscope that you
use to drive, or how does thatwork?

SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
Well, you have three portals, one that looks out, I'm
gonna say thirty to four, well,not forty five, I'm gonna say
about thirty degrees left,thirty degrees right, and one
straightforward.
Okay.
Uh and then you can take thatone that goes straight forward
out, and you put a night visionuh system in there.
And pretty much when you'redriving at night, that's all you
can see is straightforward.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
So Well, and you don't uh with night vision, you
don't really have depth of fieldeither.
Like you're just seeing, but youdon't really know how far things
are, right?
Right, correct.
That must make for some fundriving.

SPEAKER_03 (25:00):
Uh that's true.
Well, on you know, like uh fullmoon nights, it's it's kind of
like daylight out there.
Uh but when you have no moonnights and very little stars,
it's it's really gets prettyhard to see to see.

SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
It's uh it's an acquired skill, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So uh where do you go from FortHood then?
Because your enlistment's up,right?
At the end of the year.

SPEAKER_03 (25:25):
It's coming up, yeah.
I actually had applied for uhflight school.
I had my platoon leader uh heapplied to flight school.
I'm like, wow, I didn't you knowI didn't know you could do that.
So I didn't get much informationfrom him, but it he told me that
you had to start out taking uh afast test, a flight aptitude

(25:48):
skills test.
And so I mean he had his packetput in and he pretty much left
right away.
So anyway, I went to take thisfast test and you know I passed
it.
So I started putting tried toput my packet together, and I
figured my battalionheadquarters would know how to

(26:09):
put this packet together becausehe did.
He did it all himself or hadhelp with someone else.
They knew nothing about thisstuff, so I ended up having to
go back to this place I testedat, and there was a sergeant
there.
Uh I think his name was SergeantBragg, Sergeant First Class.
Anyways, he he helped me put mypacket together.
And you know, so I passed thetest, got my packet together,

(26:31):
and sent it away.
And then I waited forever to uhyou know to get word on this,
and I got 15 days short.
No one knew it but me.
Oh I mean, I had 15 days left onmy ID.
That's that kind of close.
It is.
I'm like, oh come on, please,just send word down.

(26:51):
But anyway, um they sent us todraw new equipment from supply.
And I get up to the supplysergeant and he starts throwing
this stuff at me, and it's stillin bags, it's brand new.
I was like, oh, you know, Ireally don't want this stuff,
given that I'm probably gonnahave to turn it back in in a
couple of days.

(27:12):
He's like, What?
Like, yeah, that's right.
I'm 15 days short.
Do you want to give this to me?
He's like, wait a minute.
He runs off and calls the firstsergeant, comes back to me,
Benning, first sergeant wants tosee you.
And anyway, uh, I think he'ssupposed to know about things
like this, you know, likegetting lists down from

(27:32):
whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
He's supposed to come talk to you and all that
stuff, right?
That didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Exactly.
So I think it pretty muchembarrassed him, and he was a
little bit upset with me.
And he's like, I need to knowtoday, right now.
It's like a Friday, right?
Stay in right now.
Are you staying in or are yougetting out?
I'm like, oh well, firstsergeant.
He's like, fine.
Report to me Monday morning andget your clearance paperwork.

(28:00):
Okay, no problem.
So anyway, I went back to thisSergeant Bragg that helped me
put my packet together and toldhim, oh, you know, I appreciate
the help.
You did a good job.
It was fantastic.
I said, but I ain't heardnothing.
I said, I got 15 days.
First sergeant says I need toget out.
He's like, no, no, no, wait aminute.
Says if you're if you're waitingfor word on a school that you

(28:22):
had put a packet into orwhatever, you can extend six
months at a time.
I'm like, I can.
I did not know this.
So basically that's what I whatI did.
But when I went back to see thefirst sergeant Monday, I was
like, no, no, no, I've changedmy mind.
I'm not getting out.
I am not re-enlisting, but I'minstead extending.
He was not a happy case.

(28:43):
It was not the answer he wantedto hear.
No, him and I didn't get along.

SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
To say the least.
I can kind of hear it in yourvoice a little bit there.
Right, right.
So, anyways, ended up getting uhaccepted to flight school, and
the lady, I think she was adivision level, told me I was
accepted to flight school that Ishould be expecting orders

(29:08):
anytime because they said andsend this list down to brigade
and then brigade would send itdown to me.
And uh anyway, so I didn't getanything.
I called back and I was like, II've got nothing from.
It's like, well, let me giveBrigade a call.
So she called back and she says,uh, I gotta send them another
list because they can't findyour name on that list.

(29:31):
And still nothing.
So I'm like, well, how about ifI come and get that list from
you?
Because Brigade was telling methat I wasn't on it.
Right.
And take it to Brigade so I canpoint it out to this person
there where my name is on thelist.
And anyways, I found out theconfusion.
Everybody's name on that list ofuh, you know, be made up in

(29:52):
individual orders from thisblock list.
Everyone is typed in there, likeoff a computer, typewriter,
whatever, and my name is writtenin on the very top.
Oh well, so the lady at Brigadedidn't see it written in at the
top, and she's like, Oh, thereyou are.
She grabbed her copy.
Oh yeah.
So anyway, I ended up with likeuh five days to to clear and get

(30:16):
out of Fort Hood.
Uh-huh.
And went to flight school.

SPEAKER_01 (30:20):
Now, where'd you go to flight school at?
Fort Rucker, Alabama.
Oh boy.
That's a nice that's the that'seven warmer, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (30:27):
It is, but you know, I like for I like Fort Rucker.
Yeah.
I I could see myself living downthere even now.
It's uh it's very warm and humidin the summer, but most
generally uh not too bad in thewinter.
Yeah.
Uh it was a different world.

unknown (30:44):
Uh huh.

SPEAKER_03 (30:44):
I was not interested, you know, I wasn't
hadn't really been inspectedlike that, I guess.
Uh huh.
You know, playing that game withyou gotta have your underwear, t
shirts, and whatever rolled inhow many ever inches and having
A uh working display, theycalled it, where you know you
had to use it, but it had to beperfectly displayed.

(31:07):
Yeah, no uh no shaving cream andthe shaving cream lid and all
that stuff, right?
Exactly right.
Yeah.
And then starting out, you haduh you know, you had your
display locker, which had youruniforms and whatnot, and your
underwear, your your class A's,your your shoes, your boots, and
this.
But you had a uh shared lockerfor extra stuff.

(31:31):
And uh so you'd have like acombination locker that you both
had to combination to, andwhoever was in it last before
leaving for the morning orwhatever had to make sure it was
locked.
Well, we had gotten word from aguy that for whatever reason he
had to go back to the barracks,said I I think you guys' uh area

(31:51):
got trashed.
It's like what?
And I remember I had I was thelast one in that shared locker.
Did I forget to lock it?
I you know, because I mean thatwas that was an invitation to
trash your your displays if youleft it unlocked.
Right.
Uh anyway, sure enough, comeback and my area and his area is

(32:11):
just totally trashed and foundout the reason, you know, why it
was unlocked or whatever.
Uh they left uh the desk drawerupside down on top of our
garbage heap.
And he and my uh locker mate hadtaped the combination to the
bottom of the drawer.
Oh.
And it's like, you know, I mean,I didn't get I didn't get mad.

(32:34):
Yeah, I was more or lessrelieved that it wasn't me
because I was the last one init.
But it's like, really?
Seriously, you didn't think theywould find that?

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Yeah, that's yeah, but that's probably something
someone's done before.
Absolutely.
I'm sure they look for thatstuff.
So when you go to flight school,though, so you're enlisted um at
the time.
Are you going through officer orwarrant officer school then?

SPEAKER_03 (32:57):
Yes, yes, it's warrant officer candidate
development course.
And uh uh well, I'm if I come inoff the street or I'm enlisted,
they automatically bump you toE5 pay.
Unfortunately for me, I wasalready in E5, so And no bonus
for Yeah, I I didn't get anyextra money.

SPEAKER_01 (33:16):
Yeah, it's all the same.
And you didn't they there wasn'tlike a a college requirement or
any of that then for you to No,there you there was as far as
getting promoted later on.

SPEAKER_03 (33:26):
Right.
But uh CW2 from CW1 to WarrenOfficer 1 to CW2 was pretty much
automatic, but after that theywanted you to have college.
Okay.
You know, to three and four,which is all they had at the
time.
Now I believe they have like amaster warrant five, something
along those lines anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
The stuff all changes every couple of years, I
think.
So you're in Warren OfficerCandidate School then,
basically, and um Yeah, what'sother than other than having
your area trash, what's kind ofwhat what's the rest of that
like for you?

SPEAKER_03 (33:59):
Well, it's all structured.
I mean, they pretty much harassyou from the time that you get
up till the time that you go tobed.
And uh it's just all designed tosee if you can handle the
stress.
I mean, because we were takingornhoffic development course
right there at Fort Rucker,which you know is the flight
school for the Army helicopters.

(34:20):
So most of us were we're goingthat route.
Uh there were a few other ones,you know, it was going into
maintenance or finance or CID orstuff like that, but uh most of
us were going right from thedevelopment course right into
flight school.

SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
Okay.
So this is really this coursethat you're in right now, is
this is all just about being awarrant officer.
You're not even looking atcorrect.

SPEAKER_03 (34:46):
It's it's the equivalent of uh officer
candidate course, you know, foruh lieutenants, wannabe
lieutenants courses, same stuff.
We're just gonna make you wishyou weren't here.

SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
Right.
We're gonna find yourweaknesses, we're going to
exploit them.
Exactly.
Yeah, I missed that.

SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
It was very physical too, a lot of running and a lot
of uh carrying logs andteamwork, team building.

SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Yeah.
How long was that school?

SPEAKER_03 (35:15):
I wish I could remember.
I'm thinking it was about 10weeks, maybe 12 weeks, but uh I
don't think it was a shortschool by any means.

SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
No.
So any anything uh anythingstick out in your mind when you
think about Warren OfficerSchool?

SPEAKER_03 (35:31):
Oh, I love the way they used to trash your
displays, you know.
They would say, okay, we'regoing on uh these secret
missions or whatever into thisother country, but you have to
dress like a local.
So they would tell you how todress, you know, like a low
quarter on one foot and a booton the other, where your your
class A trousers with your, youknow, and they would just make

(35:51):
up this ridiculous uniform,right?
Which when you put it togetherand put it on was destroying
your display.
So you go on about fivedifferent missions or whatever,
one after another, and by thetime you were done, your display
was destroyed.

SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
It's all by design.
You know, when you were talkingabout that, it reminded me when
I was going through um uh OCS,uh, we were out in the field and
we were doing stand to at like,I don't know, six o'clock in the
morning, and um, all of asudden, the the instructor was
like, Oh my god, we have agolfer.

(36:28):
There's a golfer with us.
And we're like, what is hetalking about?
He's like just yelling at myfriend, like, oh, you're a
golfer, aren't you?
Well, he had put on his winteruh pants, his winter trousers
and his summer top.
Ah, and so the big joke wasgolfers' shirts and pants don't
match.
Ah, and so yeah, that was thebig thing.

(36:49):
I'll never I'll never forgetwhen you said that.
I it brought that right to mymind, like how you had a dress
like that.
That's funny.
Yeah, yeah, they they find everylittle thing while you're there.

SPEAKER_03 (37:00):
They do.
Yeah, that was the last time myuh display was destroyed like
that.
I mean, our bar locker wasalways locked after that.
But uh I mean that that's theworst because they turn
everything upside down, theyjust undo everything.

SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
Yeah, they ever tie like your boots to somebody
else's boots and that kind ofthing, too, when they're
trashing your lockers.
They used to do that to us.
Yeah, I don't so much rememberthat one.

SPEAKER_03 (37:26):
I just remember that it was a you know, because you
only had you everything wasstructured.
You only had so much time forworking on your personal stuff,
and when it's destroyed, it'slike, oh so then after the
secret mission, I it must havebeen a real nightmare trying to
put that all back together.
It was, but they they justweren't finding enough demerits

(37:46):
you know on their dailyinspections, like, okay, well
they got this, they're they're alittle bit too good at this, so
we're gonna have to send them onsome missions.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
So it's a little bit different from your basic
training experience then whenyou could set back to phase one.

SPEAKER_03 (38:00):
I wasn't uh I wasn't used to that, but I mean I did
come in knowing a lot more thanother people.
Like I could uh march people anduh stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
So what kind of mix was it between people who had
like military experience andpeople that were just coming in
sort of off the streets?

SPEAKER_03 (38:17):
Uh most of us had military experience.
There was there was a few thatand right offhand, uh I'm
thinking they didn't make it.
Like my uh locker mate, uh, hedidn't really handle the stress
too much.
He didn't like being yelled atall the time and and worrying
about this and that and theother thing.
Maybe he started he startedtalking to me later.

(38:40):
I I think I'm gonna I'm thinkingI'm gonna quit.
It's like look, they're justmessing with you, man.
If you want to, it's what youwant to do, you gotta get
through this part first.
Yeah.
Which he was wanting to go toflight school as well.
So I was like, if you don't getthrough this, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Well, the whole purpose is to make you quit.

SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
And they do the quitter.
They busted him.
Yeah.
That's too bad.
So you uh you uh obviously madeit through Warren Officer uh
school, and then so did you havea break before you went on to
flight school or kind of whatwas that transition like?

SPEAKER_03 (39:13):
No, it was it was pretty much right straight into
uh flight school.
And uh lots of memories fromthat.

SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
Yeah, what were you learning to fly?

SPEAKER_03 (39:25):
Well, at that time they were training us, they had
a TH 55, and it's uh littlehelicopter with uh like a pole
coming out the back with uh withtail rotor and uh three blades
for the main rotor and and thisthese bug eye looking
complexiglass windows, and whatlooked like a VW engine on the

(39:48):
back of it.

SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Like something you might build in your own garage.

SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But they were they were verydurable.
And uh so learning to fly thatthat was pretty good.
I mean, I started out having alittle pro little bit of problem
finding what they call the hoverbutton.
You know, everybody's out thereto the training airfields
practicing hovering, and youknow, you come back at night and

(40:14):
it's like, oh, I did it, I I gotit, you know.
So everybody's getting it exceptme.
That's what it felt like.
Right.
So I remember the next day I'mout with my instructor pilot.
He's like, Look, you know, Idon't I don't know what's what's
what's taking you so long to getthis or whatever, it's just but
look, uh uh call, we're gonna goto XX runway, column, and hover

(40:39):
down there.
I'll be on the controls withyou, and you know, just riding
along with you, and you fly itout there.
So I did all that, and I mean itwas not a problem.
I'm you're supposed to be uhhovering at three feet.
I was doing that, had theheading that I wanted, got to
the runway to where I wassupposed to take off.
Then I look over at him, andhe's got his foot up on the door

(41:03):
because we didn't have doors, sohe had to guess a jam or
whatever.
Yeah.
And he was kicked back smoking acigarette, and I lost it.
I'm like, I've been doing thismyself, you know.
I can't I can't hover.
And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And he comes on the controlswith me.
But anyway, after that, it'slike, okay, so obviously I can
do it.
I just need to get out of myhead.

(41:24):
And yeah.
And it was it was the othermemorable experience I have with
that was you know, after youlearn to hover or whatever, they
start doing uh solos where youknow you have two students, one
instructor pilot.
So the uh one student would flyfrom the the base field to the

(41:44):
training field.
And then the other one would flyit back at night.
And then you flew with theinstructor while you were at the
training field.
Uh so anyway, I'm flying back tothe to the base field, and we
had in the aircraft what'scalled a uh PWD proximity
warning device with all thosehelicopters flying around, they

(42:06):
they want this, you know, littleto let you know that someone's
around you.
So my PWD starts going off andit's got lights on it to tell
you basically which directionit's coming from and whether
it's above or below you.
And if it doesn't tell you aboveor below, it's the same level.
So if it's going off, it's nottelling me which direction.

(42:27):
It's not telling me whether it'sabove or below me.
I'm like, I'm lookingeverywhere, looking everywhere.
And then finally I see thisother TH-55 coming directly at
me with two pilots in it, youknow, so it was an instructor
pilot and a trainee.
But why he was there, you know,because they had specific
corridors that you were supposedto use or whatever, and it's why

(43:25):
he was coming at me on mycorridor.
I have no idea, but it's like Ihad to take evasive maneuvers.
And it's like, and I'm just I'mnot very far along to be flying
like this, you know.
Uh-huh.
Had to kind of like roll it overand lose altitude.
And anyways, it I still wonderwhat he was doing there.
It's like if you got aninstructor in there, he's

(43:47):
supposed to know better.

SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
So when you're um when you're like going out to
the training field, is that likea is it like this little line of
these these helicopters headingout?
Exactly, yeah.
And then in the night they'reall heading back in.
Correct.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (44:01):
All right.
Well, I mean, sometimes it waslike that.
Other times uh you would finishup, you know, at different
times.
So when when your instructor gotout, he would just, you know,
okay, take her back to the basefield, and then he got into a
bus with uh the other pilot andthey bust back to the base
field.

SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Okay.
And how long, how long is thisparticular school?
Is it a pretty long one?

SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
Uh it seems to me it's like uh six to nine months,
somewhere in there.
And then you I mean you gothrough stages, you have to this
was the basically learning howto fly, which uh wasn't long
after I got out.
They dropped the TH 55 andstarted training, training them
in the uh Huey, okay.
Uh H1, Iroquois, yeah, uhVietnam.

(44:49):
Uh I mean everybody knows ahelicopter from the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:51):
Every time you get in one, you hear the that that
Rolling Stone song playing inthe back of your head.
Yeah, I know exactly.
I flew in one of those a coupleweeks ago.
Did you?

SPEAKER_03 (44:59):
Yeah, down in Brighton.
Well, that was kind of what youknow.
I really wanted to get intoflight school after flying that
thing.
We had uh we flew in Fort Hoodand I was sitting in the inside.
My uh my feet were hangingoutside the helicopter, but they
were on the edge there, and theywere flying low, low, yanking
and banking.

SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
I was like, I want to do this.
Yeah.
You know the crazy thing aboutthat is I've never felt unsafe
in a helicopter.
I don't like heights.
Oh, right.
I've never felt unsafe in ahelicopter.
I love having the door open andjust awesome feeling having the
door open.
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
So you um how so you've youlearned to fly in these smaller

(45:37):
ones, and then uh so how do yougraduate into and figure out
what you're gonna do next?

SPEAKER_03 (45:41):
Well, so then they kind of it's kind of like uh a
qualification course.
You go from the TH 55 to theUH1, can you fly it?
Uh it's it's a very quick periodon there, though, of you know,
training you how to fly the Hueybefore they move you onto
instruments, which is uhinstruments is exactly like it

(46:02):
sounds you're flying offinstruments, you're not able to
see anything outside.
Uh you know, you go by uh radiobeacons and whatnot, and uh
anyway, that that takes up agood portion of flight school
right there.

SPEAKER_01 (46:19):
Yeah.
So how do they so when you'regetting trained to fly on
instruments, what do theyblindfold you?
Or they put something over thewindow, or how's that work?

SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
Um this this visor on your helmet that you know
it's kind of like uh uh thehorses in horse racing all over
where you can't see out to thesides.

SPEAKER_02 (46:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:39):
And they put uh tinfoil in the chin bubble of
the Huey, so you can't seenothing that way either.
And so you really can't see itout the upper window because you
got this bill coming out infront of you, and then you got
the blinders on the side, andyou're just focused on your
instruments.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (47:00):
So d does that really help you to trust those
instruments then?
Because is it isn't it possiblethat you could feel one way, but
your instruments are telling yousomething different?

SPEAKER_03 (47:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I had a problem with that.
Yeah.
I didn't know it at the time,but I'm susceptible to uh
flicker vertigo.
I don't know if you've heard ofit.
Never heard of that.
Um well, how it happened to me,I'll explain it.
Uh you know, I'm doing doingthis approach, and the sun is
behind me.

(47:29):
So I'm on my enterprise, I'mdoing this approach, doing
everything right.
But with the sun behind me, Igot this uh shadow of the blades
going across the instruments.
And you know, it's likeflashing.
Hands flicker vertical.
So I mean, this is doing this,and and you know, I'm starting
to feel like like I'm rollingright or rolling left or wanting

(47:54):
to do somersaults or whatever,and uh anyway, it it got
explained to me that that's youknow, that that's what was
happening to me, but it'sreally, really hard to fight.

SPEAKER_01 (48:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's when you really dohave to look at what's that
telling me.

SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:10):
Which I think they say is what happened to uh uh
Kennedy when he was flying thisplane.

SPEAKER_03 (48:16):
Well he had uh a spatial disorientation, I think,
where you couldn't tell from thefrom the sky to the horizon what
was what?
It all just kind of like meldedtogether with the with the stars
reflecting off the water andwhatever.

SPEAKER_02 (48:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (48:31):
And yeah, when when your brain's telling you, hey,
you know, you need to roll 30degrees, right, or whatever,
it's really, really hard tofight that.

SPEAKER_01 (48:40):
Right.
Which is why they have school.

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (48:43):
Yeah.
So then uh what so what happensafter you're flying the the UH1s
then?

SPEAKER_03 (48:48):
Uh the UH1s, so then you know, I mean that's like one
of the biggest parts of failingflight school is not being able
to get instruments, they'rehard.
Uh anyway, then you go into uhyour aircraft of what you're
gonna leave flight schoolflying.
Um they had at the time they youknow they had the the Cobras

(49:11):
OH-58 Scout helicopter, uh youcould stick with UH-1, uh and
they had Blackhawks coming outat that time.
And anyway, so I ended up goingthe scout route route, and uh I
actually really enjoyed that.
It was kind of like driving alittle sports car, a little MGB

(49:34):
type, you know.
Yeah, you can fit this thinganywhere and pretty much bend it
to your will.
Oh, it was just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 (49:43):
And that's a that's a single person?
Was that a single person?

SPEAKER_03 (49:47):
Well, a single pilot, you didn't have to have
another person in there, but uh,you know, you could have up to
four people in it.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (49:54):
All right.
They had front and rear seats.
And where do where did you endup flying that at?

SPEAKER_03 (50:01):
Did you say right there at the end Yeah, I I
trained and qualified in itright there at Fort Rucker and
then uh graduated flight school.
That's that's when they actuallypinned the uh the the bars on
you as far as now you're W1.
Because you I'm even though youpassed the Warren Officer
Development Course, you know,you have to pass whatever it is

(50:23):
or be good enough to to dowhatever it is wherever they
want you, whether it's you knowCID, finance, or or flight
school.
Right.
So anyway, so that's when I gotmy bars and got uh shipped off
to Fort Campbell.

SPEAKER_01 (50:37):
So was your family there when you graduated?
Yes.
And how was that?
Like what what what was theirreaction to all of this?

SPEAKER_03 (50:43):
Oh they were extremely proud.
I was uh I don't know, I wasextremely nervous, uh, because
just they're just on you abouteverything left and right, and
don't be late, and uh it wasstressful, it was a stressful
time.

SPEAKER_02 (50:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (51:00):
But I was married, uh had two kids, and you know,
my parents were divorced, butboth both sets of them came and
also my uncle on my mom's side,and it it was it was a pretty
enjoyable time.

SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
Oh, it's very cool that everyone could be there.
When when did you get married?
Somehow we missed that part.

SPEAKER_03 (51:22):
Actually, when uh I ended up re-enlisting because
you know, back when I wasextending a month at a time.
Right.
So every month I had to get inline to get paid.
I had to get in line to get anew ID card.
Next month I had to get in lineto get paid.
I had to get in line to get anew ID card.

(51:44):
So I did that for uh I'm notexactly sure, but like four or
five months, and finally I'mlike, well, you know what, uh
they're after on all this money,it had gone up in this time
frame.
Right.
Offering all this money forre-enlistment.
Like, I think I can, you know,do another three m three years,
take this money, and then if youknow if I get accepted flight

(52:07):
school, like you know, I can getout of it.
Uh so anyway, I re-enlisted,went home on leave, met my
future wife, uh, and when I cameback to after leave, she ended
up coming down months later orwhatever, and we ended up
getting married there rightthere on Fort Campbell.

SPEAKER_01 (52:27):
All right.

SPEAKER_03 (52:28):
At a chapel.

SPEAKER_01 (52:30):
That's a familiar scene.

SPEAKER_03 (52:33):
Uh that's a pretty weird story too, because uh the
chaplain wanted to meet with us,I think, three times or
whatever.
So we met with him twice, andthe third time was actually the
Sunday before we were supposedto get married, which ended up
being a Monday.
Um so we had services, he saidsee me after services, and

(52:55):
anyway, come time to get marriedthe next day, you know, after he
approved us to get married andsaid he would marry us or
whatever, he didn't show up.
It's like what?
And it's like I I don't reallyhave a phone number for this guy
other than you know for thechapel.
Right.
Uh eventually did get him,though.
I think uh I had talked to himonce before and he's like

(53:16):
denying that it's him.
And ended up getting him there,and you know, I'm just figuring
a chapel, they always havesomeone that can play the piano
or organ or whatever.
Right.
Um, so we didn't have anyone todo the wedding march, but I had
a platoon leader that's like,hey, if you let me practice a
little bit, I think I can do it.
Wow.

(53:37):
But I can't believe that uh, youknow, the chaplain who was
supposed to marry me didn't showup.
And no no excuse, and uh I don'tknow.
He might have said something Ireally is just all falling apart
for me.
Uh yeah after that.
It's like I can't believe this.

SPEAKER_01 (53:54):
But you got through it.
Yes.
You got married.
And then did you have kids likepretty much right away?

SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
Right away, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (54:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:01):
And so yeah, she ended up she uh was actually
pregnant with our second childwhen uh I went to flight school.
Oh, okay.
So that made it extra miserablefor her.
Yeah.
Well, like I say, Fort Rucker'spretty hot, and we did we did
that during the summer.

SPEAKER_01 (54:19):
Yeah, not a great place to be pregnant, I wouldn't
think.
I don't think so.

unknown (54:22):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (54:23):
So you uh you get done at Fort Rucker, though,
your family shows up, yougraduate, and then you head to
uh where'd you at?
Fort Campbell.
Fort Campbell, Kentucky.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (54:34):
Screaming Eagles.

SPEAKER_01 (54:35):
Yeah, so let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 (54:38):
Well I got there, got settled in, everything was
was was pretty good.
Um flying the OH-58, the scout,and like I said, I enjoyed
flying it because I wasn't realexperienced at it, but it didn't
take me long to get real realcomfortable with it.
And what I didn't know was FortCampbell like to or the attack

(55:03):
unit that I was in, they theylike to get scout pilots because
they couldn't get too many cobrapilots coming out of flight
school, but they could get scoutpilots.
So they'd grab a scout pilot,hang on to them for a few
months, and then send them backdown for a cobra transition.
Uh-huh.
That's how they got their cobrapilots.
And that's what happened to me.

(55:23):
It's like I just get comfortablein this aircraft and you're
sending me for a cobratransition.
But you know, driving aroundthat little sports car, really
fun and easy to drive, and nowI'm driving a garbage truck, you
know.

unknown (55:35):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (55:36):
What it felt like.

SPEAKER_01 (55:37):
Heavily armed garbage truck, though.

SPEAKER_03 (55:38):
Oh, yeah, I know, but I mean, just you know, if
I'm trying to put in pictures ofdriving something, you know.
Oh, yeah.
Driving a sports car all fun andeasy, you can zip in and out of
traffic.
Now you're driving a garbagetruck, and you you, you know, it
just takes that much moreattention to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (55:53):
Yeah, it's a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_03 (55:55):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (55:55):
So how long were you at uh at school to fly the the
bigger oh the bigger aircraft?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (56:01):
You know, I don't think the uh transition was all
that long.
It might have been like fourweeks, six weeks maybe.

SPEAKER_01 (56:08):
So in your experience though, is it like a
helicopter's helicopter then?
I mean, there's different subtledifferences, right?

SPEAKER_03 (56:14):
Right.
For the most part, uh you know,the the blades all turn the same
way.
You uh counteract a torque witha tail rotor, they all got the
tail rotors.
Um I never flew one, but aChinook, it's gotta be a little
bit different of a story.
Uh that's more like driving agreyhound, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (56:34):
Yeah, yeah, or great big delivery truck or something.

SPEAKER_03 (56:37):
Something.

SPEAKER_01 (56:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (56:38):
18 wheeler, I don't know.
I have ridden in them, but Ihaven't flown one.

SPEAKER_01 (56:43):
Yeah.
I uh I I flew I flew in one onetime and I remember there was uh
hydraulic fluid coming out ofone of the hoses.
Right.
And I I looked at the at thecrew chief, I'm like, I'm like,
hey, you know, there's fluidcoming out of there, right?
And he goes, Yeah, don't worryabout it unless it stops.

SPEAKER_03 (57:01):
I was like, okay, that must just be how these
things work.
Right, right.
We put extra in it.

SPEAKER_01 (57:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (57:07):
Just for that purpose.

SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Exactly.
So you got tricked into uh intoflying this new uh this new
helicopter, and uh you go off toschool and then you come back.
Did your wife stay at uh at FortCampbell.

SPEAKER_03 (57:22):
At Fort Campbell, then while you're it was just a
pretty quick turnaround.
Um more complicated theaircraft, uh the longer the
qualification course is.
But uh me and another guy frommy unit ended up the same thing.
He was a scout pilot, and it'slike now you're gonna be a cobra
pilot.
So we we went down theretogether and drove down there.

(57:43):
It's I'm thinking like four tosix hour drive from Fort
Campbell to Fort Rucker.
And anyway, got the Cobraqualification and back to Fort
Campbell we went.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (57:57):
And then so this would have been what uh late
eighties.
Uh together.

SPEAKER_03 (58:04):
Okay, so I started flight school in eighty-four,
graduated in eighty-five, and itwas like uh I really don't
remember what time of year itwas for the cover transition,
like say six months.
I'm gonna say it's stillprobably eighty-five when I went
down there, maybe eighty-sixwhen I came back.

SPEAKER_02 (58:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (58:25):
All right.
So you're back eighty-six, andthen what so what kind of things
are you doing there?

SPEAKER_03 (58:30):
Uh we're deploying a lot or going to the field a lot.
Yeah.
Um, you know, sometimes theywould load aircraft up into uh
an Air Force transport aircraft,which uh for us pretty much was
always a C5 for the aircraft.
I mean 141s could handle the thetrucks and the jeeps and
whatnot, but the aircraft alwayspretty much went into a C5.

(58:53):
Uh but we we flew differentplaces too with uh you know in
the aircraft and set up uh youknow camp someplace and play
army and week later we go backor two weeks later, go back to
Fort Campbell and but it wasalways training.
I mean serious day in, day outtraining.

(59:15):
Now, did you stay at Campbellfor a while?
Actually I stayed there quite awhile.
Actually I was there till uhuntil I got out in ninety one.

SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (59:26):
So uh I became a movement officer, uh, you know,
responsible for thesedeployments that I was talking
about, uh loading aircraft intothe C5, 141s for for the other
stuff, and then uh you know, Iwas in charge of people that

(59:47):
were in charge of other thingslike like the equipment, I'd
have someone in charge of that.
Uh another person would be anofficer, would be in charge of
all the personnel, you know,making sure they're where
they're supposed to be.
Yeah.
And then usually like uh uhsupply sergeant would be in
charge of building the pallets.

unknown (01:00:08):
They had to go with us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:10):
And so, like I said, I did that for quite a while,
and when it came down that ourunit was gonna be fielding the
age sixty four, uh the commanderchose people that he wanted to
keep in his unit, especiallywith the warrant officers, and
got them sent off to schools.

(01:00:31):
Me and myself and some friendsof mine uh went to the armament
course, the age 64 armamentcourse in Fort Eustace.
You know, that was kind of toget us locked in to, you know,
we're going to age 64 and we'regonna stay at Fort Campbell.
Okay.

(01:01:01):
So we were supposed to go down,you know, from Fallon Armor
course, go down to Fort Ruckeragain for the qualification
course.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:07):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:07):
Well, it kept getting grounded and kept
pushing it back and pushing ourdates back, and we finally made
it and had to go to Fort Hood tothe Apache training gate, is
what it was called, and thewhole unit would go down there
for like six months and train onthe tactics the pretty much the

(01:01:31):
same tactics as you usuallywould in a cobra, but you're in
a new aircraft, so go down thereand train for six months.
Months and then come back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:39):
You're still married at this time, too, right?
Correct.
Yeah.
So you're in and out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:44):
Yes.
I was uh the armor course, if Iremember right, was somewhere
three to four months long.
So I mean I'm out there fouruses without my wife and
children and come back and uh Ididn't want to rent a place or
or get a house or whatever.
So uh they ended up goingstaying with her her mother back

(01:02:07):
in Michigan, which is where I'mfrom, Charlotte.
Yeah.
And you know, I kept saying,Well, you can come down to Fort
Hood with me for those sixmonths.
So we had some wives andfamilies go down there, but they
kept pushing it back, pushing itback, pushing it back, and you
know, I'd already been fourmonths without my family, so
it's like, okay, well, I'm gonnarent a place.

(01:02:27):
I'd no sooner rented the placeand got them settled and
whatever, and off to Fort Hood Iwent.
It's how it works.
For six months, yeah.
It's like, okay, you were gonnago with me, but now you're not.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:39):
Well, and when you say they were ground, like
they're they were grounding thewhole fleet, right?
Yes, absolutely.
I don't remember exactly why orwhat, but you know, when when
they're unsure of something,they ground everything.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:49):
Well, you don't want don't want to take any risk,
right?
Exactly.
At least not not duringpeacetime when you don't have
to.
So you uh off to Fort Hood forsix months and then you come
back.
Um, I I want to go back to soyou mentioned Fort Eustace,
which I I hadn't heard that namein a long time.
I didn't really ri realize thatthey did anything at Fort

(01:03:10):
Eustace because uh because theyused to call it Fort Useless.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:14):
Right, right.
Even Uncle Sam thinks it sucks.
Yeah.
That was the acronym.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:20):
That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:23):
Yeah, I it was it's kind of interesting that they
they they had that course there.
Uh but there was a lot of uhwarrant officers you know, we'd
be mixed in with uh NCOs andwhatnot.
But uh I the class that I was inwas mostly officers.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:39):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:41):
So you get you get back and you uh start just kind
of going back into training modethen?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:47):
Exactly.
Deploying uh training, andagain, you know, you're you're
the first ones at Fort Campbell.
Uh so everybody wants to seeyou, you know, back to uh
deploying a lot and and dog andpony shows for whoever wants to
see you.
Back to your M1 days, right?
Exactly.
I've been through this, I knowwhat it's about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:09):
So it's kind of cool though that you got to be on
kind of the cutting edge of thenew tank and now the cutting
edge of these new helicopters.
Exactly.
Um yeah, not a I don't not a lotof people have that sort of
experience.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:19):
No, and and usually when you get uh, you know, uh
your advanced aircraft like mestarting out would have been the
Cobra.
Uh-huh.
Uh you know, and then of coursethey were transitioning to the
64, so I got into that.
But you're pretty much locked inflying a 64.
Oh uh, you can't like say, Oh, Iwant to fly Blackhawks.

(01:04:40):
No, no, no, no.
You we trained you to fly a 64,you're gonna fly a 64.
Right.
But uh there was you know, therewas a few people that that got
around that.
I had uh one guy in my unit thatended up uh going to the fixed
swing course.
Which I was pretty envious ofthat because I I just don't
imagine you know their jobs, butYeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:02):
I want to ask something.
So you I mean you talk aboutflying helicopters, like, oh, it
was my job, this is what I did,it was fun.
Wasn't it like really cool?
Like, was it did you ever likesit in that seat go and go, holy
crap, this is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:17):
Well, yeah, yeah.
Once you get comfortable withit, I mean when you're
uncomfortable in aircraft, it'slike uh it's a little bit
stressful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:25):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:26):
But you know, they you start out when you're
uncomfortable, whatever, anddon't have that much training.
You have uh either an instructorpilot or a a senior guy, uh, you
know, that would keep you fromgetting in trouble till you get
till you got trained up.
Yeah.
And then you become the seniorguy and you're training training
the newbies behind you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:45):
Yeah, I'm just yeah, I just can't wrap my head around
I'm flying this helicopter.
That would be so cool.
But then again, I got you know,I guess that's uh it's what you
trained for, it's what youwanted to do.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:55):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:55):
Yeah.
And then um, so you stayed at uhFort Campbell and you said till
you till you uh got out um afterdesert storm.
Yeah, so let's talk about that alittle bit.
Um what was the what was likethe lead up for Desert Storm
like and then what happens?

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:13):
Well they they locked us locked us down, you
know.
Uh they have this this dealwhere uh they send out an alert
and you're supposed to be readyto go, wheels up 18 within 18
hours.
And so that usually means yougot like an hour to report to to
your unit.
Once the alert goes out.

(01:06:34):
I mean, uh for us we had beepersback in the day.
So your beeper goes off, and youknow, you know that because you
you know you know that you wereon deck, basically.
Right.
And if your beeper beeper wentoff, you you report and
whatever.
So anyway, they they locked usin for about uh a week to two
weeks, something like that.

(01:06:54):
And they knew something wasgoing on, they're not saying
what, but and and I'm startingto do all these um loads for
aircraft, you know, which I'vealready had some done.
You know, basically this is howwe're gonna load out.
And they're like, oh, let's takeevery contingency.
This is make hundreds andhundreds of load plans.
And I'm I'm going nuts.

(01:07:15):
I don't know, I don't know whatit's all about or whatever, but
then uh find out that uh, youknow, because we're like we're
locked in, we're not being ableto go home and watch the news,
whatever, but come to find out,you know, Kuwait had been
invaded by Iraq.
Right.
So away we go.
And I don't know, it's it's kindof weird because they give us

(01:07:37):
sleeping pills when we get onthe on the aircraft.
Yep.
And um at work, I remember goingto sleep, but I don't remember
how many hours it was, but itwas quite a while that we landed
in Spain.
Then we went from Spain to uhKing Fod Airport, which was
still under construction then.
And I remember getting off theplane, it was like 100 plus

(01:07:59):
degrees, it was like 105, 106 orwhatever when we walked off the
plane.
It was like first thing in themorning, too.
It's not gonna get much betterthan that.
Holy crap, it's hot here.
I thought they sent me halfwayaround the world to die from
heat exhaustion because I meanwhen I get up to around, you
know, in the high 20s or low30s, you know, 132 or whatever,

(01:08:20):
it's like I can't deal withthis.
I don't think people realize howfreaking hot it is over there.
Oh, it was terrible.
And you know, everybody'swriting home about this and
whatever.
And and I think it lasted itlasted a good three months to
where the coolest it got waslike 104 degrees, and that was
you know, at night.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:38):
And after you've been there for a little while,
that's cold.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:41):
Yeah, well maybe not.
Yeah.
Well, that sweat in 24-7 getsgets really old.
Yeah, that's true.
And then um they weren't reallyprepared for you know, the
desert.
So we I mean, we had to wash ourclothes in in in uh like little

(01:09:01):
swimming pools.
Um you know, what you've seen inuh Vietnam movies as far as the
trains, that's what we had.
And this is on an airfield.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:13):
You know, an airport.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:15):
Uh I think too, like the during that whole time uh in
the you know, the late eighties,the early nineties, we were
still training for like a uh aRussian American ground battle
in the woods somewhere, right?
Not for anything in the desert.
Right.
Because nothing we had was readyfor the desert.

(01:09:37):
No.
And I you know, I was alwayscurious, how did the heat impact
the helicopter?
Like, does that change anythingfor you when you're flying?
Because it's so so hot asopposed to you know the how the
air is say in the States?

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:52):
Well, we wanted to get off uh as quickly as we
could.
Um one thing about the Apachethat I really, really like is
that it's air conditioned.
And it's not so much for youknow crew comfort.
Uh it's because of all theelectronics that it has, it has
to stay dry and it has to staycool.
So basically the airconditioning it has runs through

(01:10:13):
them first and then comes toyou.
Yeah.
Which didn't matter, I don'tmind sharing as long as I get
some.
Uh I'm trying to remember.
I'm I don't really remember ifthe Blackhawks were air
conditioned too, but it seemslike maybe they were.
But anyway, yeah, it wasn't toobad once you get uh once you got

(01:10:33):
up in the air or once you gotrunning.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:35):
Yeah.
And so what sort of things didyou do while you were there?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:39):
Uh a lot of training at first.
And then we had uh one thingthat I think was pretty cool, uh
we started training for thismission.
Uh it was named Normandy.
I don't know if you've heardabout it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:52):
I have not.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:53):
Okay, well at the beginning of the war, which I'm
thinking was January 17th, ifmemory serves me right, uh we
had uh not sure how manyaircraft it was, but I'm gonna
say uh two put two uh twocompanies go out.
And what we what they did wastake out these two uh radar

(01:11:14):
sites uh on the way to Baghdad.
So I I mean I was part of it andnot part of it.
Uh I trained for it.
I was uh backup to the backup.
So we all start up for this forthe mission with the backup and
the backup to the backup, whichis me or whatnot.

(01:11:37):
And you know, as long as the thebackup and the the other
aircraft can make it, backup tothe backup falls out, but then
uh the backup continues withthem to the jump point before
they went to the mission.
And the mission, like I say, wasto take out these radar sites
going into Baghdad, and Iremember being woke up, it

(01:11:58):
seemed like it was like aroundone o'clock in the morning, with
all these fixed wing aircrafttaken off with afterburners on.
You cannot sleep through this.
It's a little noisy.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, guess what?
I think the war is starting.
So anyway, basically we uh myunit was the one that fired
first shots first shots of theuh the war.

(01:12:21):
Oh, okay.
Took out the radar sites andtook out the radar sites, the
the Air Force came in throughthat gaping hole that we left
and bombed the heck out ofBaghdad.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:33):
And so the helicopters kind of have an
advantage too, right?
Because they can do that low flykind of under the radar sort of
thing and and get stuff donethat maybe the Jets can't do.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:43):
Exactly.
And like I say, we've beentraining for, we've been uh you
know, flying all these missionsinto Iraq, and uh what I didn't
like about it was we have theseuh radar detectors let you know
when basically when you're beingsilhouetted by anti-aircraft or
whatever.
Right.
Which I'm guessing uh maybe theAir Force's stuff looking at you

(01:13:07):
would set this off too, becauseI mean it's just like the whole
time we in Iraq, this this thingwas going off, and we you know
we can't fire back unless we'refired upon, so it almost would
have been better for me to havethe thing off.
Yeah, right.
Like, yeah, what's the point?
It's like um it's going off thewhole time we're in Iraq.
But anyway, like I say, wetrained for that and uh

(01:13:27):
basically figured out the routethat we wanted to use, and these
guys actually just recentlywithin this past year, uh,
because I mean it was secret andwhatnot, uh got a distinguished
uh uh flying medal, thedistinguished air medal, that's
it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:50):
Took them a little while, didn't it?
It did take them a little while,but that's like, oh good for
you.
Right, right.
Uh this was a pretty as wars go,this was pretty short though,
right?
So how long were you there?

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:01):
Uh actually was there from August uh 19th, 20th.
I think we took off the 19th andprobably landed uh there in on
the 20th.
Um and I did not leave to comeback until April.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:17):
Okay.
So you were there for a whilethen?

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:19):
Yeah, I mean a lot of it was standing around
waiting while the builduphappened.
Yeah.
Yep.
But they want everybody.
And then well, acclimating, thenlearning to fly in the desert.
It's like, here's your map, andthey hand you a piece of
sandpaper.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:33):
Yeah.
And it's like to me, uh, Kuwaitis like being on the moon.
It's that really fine sand thatgets into everything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:43):
There towards the end, you know, uh Hussein uh set
the oil rigs on fire andwhatnot.
That was that was weird flyingin that.
It's like because then it justseemed like everything was on
fire.
Wow.
Did you get any good pictureswhile you were there?
You know, I I don't know that Idid.

(01:15:03):
I I I think I have some.
I've been meaning to go throughthem and I haven't.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:09):
Yeah, I have a lot of that stuff that's just
sitting in a box somewhere thatsomebody I'll get to it, maybe.
That's protected for now.
So yeah, exactly.
And so uh anything else uh aboutyour deployment there that uh
you wanted to share?
I mean, that's already prettybig though, what you uh what you
guys accomplished just to getinto Baghdad.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:31):
Yeah, uh I'm gonna go back to when we were at the
Apache Training Brigade.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:36):
They have like an aircraft there that you're
supposed to trade one of yournew aircraft for for this
aircraft to kind of help youwith your maintenance flow.
And we ended up getting us Idon't know if you understand the
term, hangar queen.
I think it had been there one ofthe first aircrafts ever to go
to Fort Hood for the you knowApache Training Brigade.

(01:15:59):
But uh I'll explain a little bitabout hangar queen.
That's where this aircraft getsgrounded.
You order parts for it, and it'ssitting in the hangar waiting
for these parts.
In the meantime, two or threeother aircraft go down, and
they're like, oh well, we canget these two or three aircraft
up if we just take the parts offof this one we've got waiting

(01:16:20):
for this other part.
So they take the parts off ofit, and you know, they're on
order to so anyway.
This gets done over and overuntil this bird gets so picked
apart and stuck in the hangarand gets known as a hanger
queen.
And anyway, so we got stuck withthis aircraft, and um I remember
the last three numbers was 383.

(01:16:41):
Well, that's the aircraft I wastraining on to go onto this
Normandy mission.

unknown (01:16:44):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:45):
And while we were training, uh, we were gonna fire
a Hellfire missile, and it's thefirst time for me we were firing
a Hellfire missile.
I was like, oh man, this iscool.
I've seen it, but I've not doneit.
So we go out there and we'regonna fire this Hellfire
missile.
It I I don't know what waswrong, but it would not launch.
So we land, give it to anotheraircraft, they launch it or

(01:17:06):
whatever.
Well, when we get done with thatmission, we come back, and then
uh an armament officer and amaintenance officer go try to
diagnose why this thing isn'tfiring missiles.
Right.
And anyway, so they're they'resitting on the airfield, and I

(01:17:27):
don't know why, but uh we hadarmed aircraft pointed at each
other.
Oh no.
Well, they're working on thisaircraft trying to figure this
out.
It's armed, and this hellfirejust launches from the rail.
And we're, you know, towards thethe building, the airport side,
you know, and you so you got thethe ramp to go through, you all

(01:17:49):
these other aircraft parked outthere of all different sorts and
whatever.
Then on the edge before therunway are these Chinooks.
This missile takes off and kindof weaves its way through
everybody, misses everything.
Uh these crew chiefs wereworking on this uh Chinook just
for the runway, working on theengine, so they were on the on

(01:18:12):
the back of the aircraft.
Missile just misses them.
You know, it goes underneath therotor blades, right beside them,
and anyway, so it gets to therunway and does what's called a
G Blias climb.
It goes up in the air, it'slooking for a laser signal to
home in onto.
Right.
Well, it can't find one, but itcomes down and slams into the

(01:18:35):
Air Force's ammo depot on theother side of the runway.
Oh no.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I mean, I didn't see anyof this.
I'm in uh we're in uh basicallya parking garage where we were
living at the time, but I heardit take off.
I'm like, oh shit, that's not uha rocket, that's a hellfire.
And you know, it you hear it fora while, and then you hear this

(01:18:59):
kaboom.
It's like, oh, this is not good.
And then a louder, kaboom boom,boom, kaboom, kaboom, it's other
stuff going off.
It's like, you know, I mean, Iwas a safety officer, so I just
started putting my stuff on.
It's like I don't know whathappened, but I'm thinking they
want a safety officer downthere, so I'm gonna go.
Yeah, probably.
Well, come to find out, youknow, on this Air Force ammo

(01:19:21):
depot, they have two guards onit.
And of course, you can't smokeinside an ammo depot.
So one of them smoked, one ofthem didn't.
But the one that smoked says,I'm gonna go outside and have a
cigarette.
The other guy says, Oh, walkthem out there and talk to you
or whatever while you'resmoking.
So they're not actually in theammo depot when that thing hit.
Thank God.

(01:19:41):
The two luckiest guys on theplanet, right?
Oh man.
Yeah, the Air Force wanted toknow what we had against them.
It's like, well, you you weretoo close.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:49):
Yeah, somehow it's their fault.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:51):
Right, right.
But anyway, it's like, oh,that's just you.
Life is just crazier thananything you can make up.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:00):
Yeah, I can't even imagine that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:02):
That's like Well, you got all this open desert on
the other side of the runway.
Right.
You got one little ammo depotthere.
That's how that's and that's howthe missile goes.
It wasn't it wasn't designated,you know, it didn't have a laser
to track on it.
Why it went to that place, Ihave no idea.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:17):
Right.
It just somehow knew.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:20):
But anyways, like I say, that was that was my
aircraft that I was training on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:24):
And of course, they wanted to severely burn this
maintenance officer and armamentofficer.
Like, oh, you guys should haveknown better, blah, blah, blah,
whatever.
I was like, no, wait a minute.
You know, I mean, we had someIPs and some safety officers
stick up for them.
I was like, look, wait a minute.
McDonnell Douglas, which is whoowned the aircraft at the time,

(01:20:44):
it's uh Boeing now, butMcDonnell Douglas swore to us,
and for those of us who've beento the Army Corps, you cannot
launch a hellfire from theground.
I mean, you can trick it tothink it's in the air, but it
still will not launch a hellfirefrom the ground.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:59):
But yeah, we did.
Somebody was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:02):
Yeah.
It's like, you know, I mean, soanyway, uh, that aircraft
disappeared within about a week.
Yeah.
I mean, it was no good to us.
Well, I'm sure McDonnell Douglasdidn't want to hang it out there
anyway.
Right.
That's why I'm thinkingdisappeared.
Yep.
Although I don't remembergetting a replacement for it
either.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:21):
But well, that's how that works, too.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:23):
Yeah, that was that's this was this hanger
queen that they forced on us.
Like, you have to take this.
No if, ands, or buts about it.
And then, you know, we end upattacking the Air Force with it.
The Air Force paid for it.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:36):
That's too bad.
But an interesting story.
Yeah, yeah.
So it talked to me aboutredeployment.
What was that like coming backthen from uh from there?
Unless there's something elseyou wanted to talk about
redeployment.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:49):
Uh coming back, they were gonna pretty much send
everything back by ship.
Uh so we had to, you know,prepare vehicles and aircraft
and whatnot, and uh had to havelike a uh a person from the unit
travel with it.
I don't know if it's gonna allbe on one ship or separate ships

(01:22:11):
or whatever, but anyway, so I'min the middle of planning that.
And uh my platoon leader, forwhatever reason, he uh
volunteered to be one of theguys to go with this stuff.
But I had uh a family emergencyat home.
My stepfather was having uh likea quadruple bypass surgery, so I

(01:22:31):
didn't have to stick around forthat.
So you got to hop on a plane andyeah, I got to hop on a plane
and come back, but uh it took ittook him a while to get that
stuff to I think it went toFlorida.
Uh-huh.
And then, you know, once we wereall back at Fort Canva or
whatever, we had to fly downthere, pick up our aircraft and
fly it back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:52):
And then so this is 91.
Yeah.
Yep.
So this is right around the timeyou're getting out of the
military then?

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:00):
Right.
Uh you know, the war was prettyquick.
I think it only lasted four,maybe five days, if that.
And uh it's like we sat in Iraqfor maybe another week or two
after that just to make sure, Iguess, that it was really over.
Um, you know, and we went backto uh King Fod Airport, and then
it seemed like we was waitingforever.

(01:23:20):
Everybody wanted out at once.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:23):
Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:25):
Anyway, we got back, and one thing I remember about
that war is they didn't takeKing Fod, or not King Fod, they
did not take uh Hussein out ofpower.

unknown (01:23:35):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:35):
It's like this guy is a looney tune.
I said, you know, I mean, Iunderstand it's all political
and whatnot with all these otheruh Arab countries, but I have a
feeling he's gonna rear his uglyhead again and we're gonna end
up having to go back.
And that was my biggest fear,you know.
I I really hated being in Iraq.

(01:23:57):
The weather, I mean, there wasjust nothing good about it.
Yeah.
Um so when we got back and theyoffered this uh kind of like
after Vietnam reduction enforcedtype deal, we're gonna, we're
gonna we're gonna let you getout.
Not only that, but we're gonnapay you to get out.
Really?
Well, I I had 12 years at thetime.

(01:24:18):
And it's like, do I want to stayin?
Because I was I got orders, youknow, I put in for this, but I
got orders for Germany at thesame time.
And I'm really wrestling withit.
It's like, I I do not want to goback to Iraq.
And I'm thinking my thought iswe're gonna be back in there
within five years.
Of course, this is uh 92 by thenor whatever, but yeah, uh, I

(01:24:40):
think it ended up being what,2003 or was it 2001, somewhere
right, somewhere in there, but Imean I could have retired in
1999, you know, done my othereight years.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:50):
But I didn't.
Well, I don't blame you.
I mean, everybody's got theirtheir reasons for doing what
they do, right?
I mean, you went, you served,and uh, you knew it was time to
kind of pack up.
So you now was your family atCampbell with you then at this
time?

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:07):
Uh actually I got divorced paperwork while I was
over there.
Oh uh final divorce paperwork.
Oh.
So that was sad, but Yeah.
Yeah, not an unclean story, butit sucks.
I had been gone a long time, soshe was pretty much living
single anyway.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:25):
So she came back to Michigan then?
Yes.
Okay, and then you got out andyou came back to Michigan.
Uh did you go someplace elseafter that?

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:33):
Yeah, I came back to Michigan and then it wasn't it's
it was still hard to get a goodpaying job here.
Uh I think I had a job driving atruck for a little while, and
that wasn't paying like Ithought it would.
So I ended up moving down to uhSt.
Louis area, Illino Illinois sidewhere I'm from, Wood River area.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:55):
And uh ended up getting a job down there working
for uh on the Red Hostess, and Iwas also in uh uh the Army
Reserves flying Blackhawks at uhScott Air Force Base there and
which was about forty miles orso from St.

(01:26:15):
Louis.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:15):
Okay.
How long were you in thereserves for?

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:18):
I was in uh about three years.
Okay, that's going back to thebeginning where I say you don't
end up flying other aircraft.
I was in the Apache and then butthen uh this unit was nothing
but Blackhawks.
It was uh you know troop mover,so you had your sent me down for

(01:26:42):
a qualification, I got it, and Iwas flying for them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:44):
You had your fair share of uh flying different
aircraft though.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:47):
I did.
Uh you know, I mean between uhthe black hawk and the Apache, I
mean there's goods and goodthings and bad things about
about both of them.
Uh the Black Hawk ended upgetting grounded a lot there at
first, too.
Had a problem with the thestable later in the rear.
If it's scheduled down, youcouldn't you couldn't pull back

(01:27:09):
on the the cyclic far enough tokeep it from nose planting.
Oh and they they didn't know whyit was doing that.
Flying along and all of a suddenyou're uh a lawn dart.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:19):
Yeah, no good.
That goes back to the to thegames we played in the early
16th.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:23):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:23):
So yeah.
So you did that for about threeyears, and then um did you stay
in the St.
Louis area then when you got outof the reserves?

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:32):
I yeah, I did.
Uh, you know, like I say I wasworking for Wonderbed Hostess,
and they ended up going likebankrupt twice uh within four
years of each other.
And I was just about ready toget a retirement from them when
they closed the doors.
Oh, jeez.
Yeah.
So it's like, okay, I'm donewith this, and then left there

(01:27:54):
and moved back up to Michigan.
My parents were getting older.
I kind of wanted to see them intheir golden years and be around
for them.
I mean, my dad wasn't doing toogood at that time, and my mother
wasn't getting any younger.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:09):
Yeah, that's that's the interesting thing.
Like, I don't I feel like Iremember my parents being young.
Right.
And now they're old and I don'tknow what happened in between.
And then my kids are seeing thesame thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:21):
Oh, right.
Yeah, I mean, I was gone a lot,been in service, so I mean they
had a whole lot of life that uhthat they did that I wasn't part
of.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:29):
That's you know, that's interesting though,
because like when you go intothe military, um you know,
whether it's on a deployment orwhether you're just in the
military for a number of years,because I was I was out of state
for almost 10 years, um, lifegoes on.
Like it doesn't stop and waitfor you to come back.
Right, right.

(01:28:50):
Um so did you come you come backand you just did you go back to
work or what did you do when yougot the got back to Michigan?

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:57):
Okay, so uh yeah, when I came back to Michigan, uh
it was hard finding a job.
I mean, I uh eventually I thinkended up working for Walmart.
It's like uh they'll hire oldpeople, which I was old at the
time, so I wasn't uh wasn'tsocial security age yet, but I
definitely think there's uh anage discrimination to uh to

(01:29:21):
getting hired.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:23):
Well, think I mean if you think about look at your
career, you flew these I meanflying a helicopter is no small
thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:31):
All right, but I didn't I wasn't broadcasting
this to everybody when you knowwhen I was looking for a job or
whatever.
Yeah.
That's kind of something I keptclose to the vest.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:40):
Okay.
Yeah.
So you didn't really talk aboutit then.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:56):
No, I I I haven't.
I'm I I guess I could beclassified as an introvert, and
yeah, you know, once I letsomething out, you know, it's
it's like okay, well, we'regonna talk about that, and I
really don't like talking awhole lot.
So I don't know if you can tellor not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:12):
Well, actually, no, because you we've been talking
for almost uh uh hour and a halfhere.
Oh so yeah.
I got a lot out of you, and youdidn't even know it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:21):
Well, yeah, he's bringing stories out of me that
I hadn't prepared to share.
I mean, I've got somethingwritten down here.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:26):
Yeah.
Was there anything we haven'ttalked about that you want to
talk about?
Um I mean, this is your story.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:32):
Well, one was uh it was kind of sad when we were
doing that uh XM training, XM1training.
Uh they had us drive all aroundFort Hood, which is 364 square
miles, I think.
But so we're driving around onthese tank trails for like 18 to
24 hours.

(01:30:53):
You know, we'd stop and refueland whatever when we needed to,
and driving through the night.
Anyway, we we were coming uponto this uh I don't know
exactly what it was, but the thetrail went straight and they
wanted us to go up onto the thisroad and take this bridge and
cross and then go uh you knowcross the bridge to the other

(01:31:15):
side or whatever.
Well, this whole crew, I guess,fell asleep, but the uh the tank
was still going full speed orwhatever, and then it just
barreled into a granite cliff.

unknown (01:31:27):
Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:28):
Yeah, and no one survived.
I mean it was just it was it waspretty sad, but I I don't know
exactly how they did it becauseI was that tired myself, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:39):
You get driving on those trails and you just hear
this this kind of like roar withuh with a rhythmic beating of
the pads hitting the hitting thepavement, you know.
And they fell asleep.
Yeah, it's nothing to just closeyour eyes for half a second and
then another interesting thingwas you know, like we were

(01:32:01):
testing this to find faults andthings to I I wish I could
remember the exact number ofmodifications they made from us
braking stuff.
Right.
But um, you know, it was aturbine engine.
So when you would you wouldpark, and these these brakes
could stop that turbine engine.
I mean, I I don't I don't knowhow they worked, but they were

(01:32:23):
awesome.
So anyway, you you you take andbreak and then you uh set the
parking brake and then you shutthe shut the tank down.
Right.
Well, sometimes you'd have topaint our park on an incline,
and what we found out was uh,you know, you hit this button to
start the uh the turbine, youknow, sometimes it sounded like

(01:32:44):
it was starting, but then itwould uh abort, you know, it'd
have an abort light come on andit'd wind down, you'd have to
try it two or three times to getit going.
Well, because you were thinkingthat it was starting, you don't
have the green light yet, andyou don't have the abort light,
you undo the parking brake.
Well, but before this thing isspooled up, you don't have any

(01:33:07):
brakes when you undo the parkingbrake.
There's nothing there.
So if you're on a on a hill andwe had this uh this how we found
out about it, we had this onetank go barreling down into the
uh battalion commander's tank,and he was hot about it.
Okay, well, we're gonnainvestigate this.
Like, okay, so do not releasethe parking brake until you get

(01:33:28):
the green light that says you'restarted.

SPEAKER_02 (01:33:31):
Uh huh.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:31):
And I remember it it's really hot inside the
driver's compartment, especiallywhen you have the hatch closed.
And we're sitting up on thisoverlook uh on this mountain
with about it's about a 300-footdrop, I'd say.
And my loader wanted to wantedto switch places with me.
Like, oh yeah, I'll switchplaces with you.

(01:33:54):
I can get some air, you know.
So anyway, uh we get this thisorder to move or whatnot, and he
he hits the start button.
And I forget his name.
I'll just call him Fred.
Fred, do not release that clickparking break.

unknown (01:34:10):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:11):
I'm like, oh, did you release a parking brake?
Yeah, I released it.
Creep, creep, creep.
We start creeping towards thisthis edge, and I I I forget how
close we were, but we'recreeping towards this edge.
It's a 300-foot drop.
I'm not going with this thing.
Yeah.
I start climbing out.
I got the, you know, uh, I'mwired in with this helmet, but I

(01:34:31):
got the wire stretch as far asit goes, and I got the tank
coming here, you know.
Let me get back in there, getback in this tank.
I'm like, ass, I am not goingover that cliff.
And it it really took a longtime for it to start.
I thought it was gonna abort.
Yeah.
But still yet, I wasn't goingover the a cliff in a tank, but
uh it started and he stopped,and we're like on the edge, and

(01:34:54):
it's like I knew better, but Ididn't tell him in time.
I tried to tell him like suddenand then he released it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:02):
It's like, oh that's gonna be an awful feeling.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:05):
Right.
Like I said, I was I was I wasnot going over with that tank
though.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:10):
Yeah, you don't need to do that.
Well, we have talked about a lotof things here today, Jerry.
And for a guy who doesn't talk,we talked, like I said, for
we're we're over an hour and ahalf now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:22):
Oh, well, I I've got so many stories in me, and
that's why I said uh, you know,once I get started.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm I'm glad to hear allof them.
Um, you know, as we as we kindof get ready to wrap up, unless
there's something, anything elsethat you want to share, um the
only other question I have foryou is, you know, people will be
listening to this soon and youknow, years down the road, maybe
even after you and I are bothnot here anymore.

(01:35:48):
So the the kind of finalquestion is, you know, what
message would you like to leavefor people um about how you
lived your life and and youknow, just uh, you know, some
advice for them in the future.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:01):
I would just like to tell some of these young people
uh uh you know the the servicesneed good, smart people that
that uh that can handle handlethe challenge.
Uh don't expect it to be easy,they're not gonna give it to
you.
But uh I think you'll uh get alot of self confidence out of

(01:36:26):
it.
You'll get a lot of training,and uh for the most part you
will be a way better person onthe other side of it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:35):
So all right.
Well, thanks for sharing that.
Thanks for spending theafternoon with me.
I appreciate it, Jerry.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:40):
Hey, no problem.
Thanks for having me.
You're welcome.

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