Growing Up Midwest, Leading America’s Soldiers (Jim Vetter)

Send us a text

A snowy drive, a borrowed Camaro, and a Christmas party recruiter set everything in motion. From a one-stoplight town in Wisconsin to Fort Knox, Jim Vetter charted an unlikely path: split-option enlistment, tank crew at 18, and a meteoric rise to drill sergeant and commandant. We walk through the first shock at the bus, the carefully engineered stress of reception, and the hard switch that forges civilians into soldiers. Jim shares the moments that stick—the grenade that hit the pit, a rifle flagged on the line, and the first time he stood in front of a formation as “the guy” and felt the purpose click into place.

Mentorship runs like a spine through his story. A first sergeant who mapped out every school and gate. Peers who pushed. Students who grew. Jim explains why rapid promotion isn’t luck; it’s readiness meeting need, with paperwork and performance to match. He later reclassed to support training missions in artillery and infantry and then moved into the Inspector General’s office, becoming the eyes, ears, and conscience of a two-star across seven states. Different uniforms, same mission: protect standards, grow people, and keep leaders out of ethical traps.

When the uniform came off in 2002, the systems stayed. Jim brought military-grade playbooks to General Motors plants, keeping production steady through water-main breaks and supply snags. He built partnerships with unions during the 2008 downturn, led COO turnarounds that pruned bad business and rebuilt teams, and eventually launched his own company before fully retiring to focus on health, grandkids, and a memoir his family has been waiting to read. The throughline is clear: say yes to challenge, find mentors, do the hard schools, and measure leadership by the lives you lift. If this journey resonates, follow the show, share it with a veteran or mentor who shaped you, and leave a review with the lesson you’ll carry forward.

Support the show

www.veteransarchives.org

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
Today is Monday, October 20th, 2025.
We're talking with Jim Vetter,who served the United States
Army.
So good morning, Jim.
Good morning.
Thanks for coming out early on aMonday morning to talk with us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
It was a beautiful drive.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Well, yes.
It's fall in Michigan.
I mean, you can't I guess youcould complain, but no one would
listen anyway.
Right.
Right.
So we'll get started.
We'll start out very simple.
When and where were you born?

SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
So I was born in uh uh Wisconsin, uh New London,
Wisconsin, uh 1965, February13th.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
All right.
And so did you grow up inWisconsin then?

SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I did, yeah.
Okay.
Grew up, uh, graduated highschool, uh, lived there till I
was probably in my mid-20s, anduh ended up coming up well, a
little later than that, I guess.
Uh came out here into Michiganuh in 2002.

(01:55):
2000.
Okay.
Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Um all right.
Well, let's uh let's talk alittle bit about growing up.
Did you have uh brothers andsisters or your only child?
I did.
I had an older brother and ayounger sister.
Okay.
So I was the middle child.
Yes, as was I.
So we could probably comparesome stories about that too.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Talk to me about growing up.
What was it like?
Uh small town.
Uh we had one stoplight, so itwas small.
Uh-huh.
Um, just about everybody kneweverybody else.
And uh, you know, we were likeeverybody else in that period
that you know, we'd go out andwhen the lights came on the at
night, the streetlights came on,we we'd have to go home.

(02:34):
And otherwise we played outsideall the time with our friends.
Uh, we walked to school.
Uh school was not close.
You know, even now as I driveback there and look at um, you
know, where I went to school, itwas like, wow, you know, that's
a long walk for a kindergartner.

SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
You're doing that like all four seasons, right?

SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Right, right, yeah.
I remember uh having a metal umlunchbox and just playing with
that in the snowbank as I walkedhome, you know, and just kind of
uh run it like a snowmobile orsomething, yeah, having that
imagination.

SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Was this so I gotta ask, wasthis like a Batman lunchbox?
Was it did it have something onit?

SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
It was I forget what was on it,but it was probably something
different every year because itbecause I probably rusted them
out from running them on thesnow banks, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
Right, right.
And did you have like the oldthermos, the ones that were like
like glass lined?

SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Yep, and they were in inside there, and yeah, so I
had everything I needed for theday, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (03:30):
I can't tell you how many of those things I broke.

SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
I was so happy when they came out with those plastic
ones.
Yep.
Yeah, so really like the sameschool system, like kind of the
same friends the whole time?

SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
No, so we we moved a bit.
Um, so we ended up um inkindergarten down in in Wywiga,
Wisconsin.
Um, and that's an Indian name,so here we rest.
Okay.
So we born in that area and thenuh kindergarten there, moved to
Florida, uh, Lakeland, Florida,did uh first grade and just half

(04:06):
of second grade, and then movedback to Fremont, Wisconsin, and
uh did uh the other half ofsecond grade there and then
finally moved to Wopaca where wefinished out high school and
everything right in that area.

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Now, did you move a lot because of work?

SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah, my dad's work.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So he was, you know, the factorythat he was working at went
under, so he had to find anotherjob and found something in
Florida.
Uh we have aunt and uncle downthere, so it worked out well.
You know, we had cousins to playwith.

SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
Yeah.
So you got to know your your uhextended family a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Yep.
Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
It was a good time.
Oh, that's great.
That's better than moving toFlorida and not knowing anybody,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Yeah.
So how was it for you to bouncearound a little bit like that?

SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Probably prepared me for the my life, yeah.
Right.
So it it wasn't bad.
You know, it was we we werestill young, we were making
friends everywhere we went, anduh it was it was kind of cool to
see the different areas.
Uh Florida, I remember just uhas a kid, always outside

(05:15):
playing, uh running, doingthings.
They have a moss there that hasuh jiggers, I think, in it, and
you know, we'd go out and playin the trees and come home just
itching and scratching, and oryou know, I'd be running and
turn around and slam right intoa tree or something like that.
So always something fun, right?
Silly things as a kid, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
Yeah.
Now, did you have any uhinterests in in high school?
Did you play sports?
Were you part of clubs?
What'd you do in high school?

SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
So my um sophomore year I played every sport.
Uh-huh.
Um so I played football, Iplayed uh I didn't do baseball.
Um played soccer, did did justtried everything one year.
Yeah.
And said, okay, I d I've donethat.
You know, basketball, uh, Ilettered in track that year, you

(06:05):
know.
So it was it was a good year.
I didn't work very hard attrack, I just could get out
there and run.
Right.
You know, which was good for mymilitary career.

SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, for anybody who's never been in the
military, you do a lot ofrunning.
Yeah.
It like seems to be a thing.

SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
Yeah, for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Well, that's that's awesome.
So you uh you uh get throughschool and um you did you
graduate from high school in min Wisconsin then?

SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Yes.
So what I did is I joined theArmy in between my junior and
senior year of high school.
Okay.
Uh went in on delayed entryprogram, and uh so I went and
did basic training between thejunior and high junior and
senior year.
After I kept graduated frombasic training, I came back home
and finished high school andthen went to my AIT or my

(06:53):
advanced training.

SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
So I'm I gotta ask, uh you know, I know a lot of uh
a lot of people uh in in likethe National Guard have done
that as well.
What did that change yourperspective like between your
junior and senior year going tobasic training and then coming
back and finishing out yoursenior year?
Were you were you kind of adifferent person or was it just
uh it was just something youdid?

SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
No, I think I was different.
I definitely um gave me more uhresponsibility and you know, a
reason for what I was doing, youknow.
Um it's an interesting story onhow I got to join up that early
because you know my parents hadto sign for it and everything.

(07:35):
But my stepfather was in uh theNational Guard and or Army
Reserve, sorry, and he was an E6uh in the community
communications.
We went to one of his Christmasparties, and uh long story to
get there, uh my car was kind ofa hoopty.
Uh so he borrowed me his Camaro.

(07:56):
Uh-huh.
It was a snowstorm, and mysister and I were gonna be a
little later than them.
So my mom and him went to thisChristmas party.
Um we came a little bit later,and on the way, we ended up
spinning out with his Camaro,took it up a hill, into the
ditch, up a hill, and put it, Iput it in park, and we're just

(08:17):
sitting there looking at eachother.
I go and uh I put it in reverse,go back out the same way I came
in, get out of the car, lookaround the car, it didn't damage
the car at all.

SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
So you're a lucky, lucky man.

SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yes, yeah, I'd have been dead on that one.
So we go to the we go to the uhChristmas party and we say we're
never gonna tell anybody thisstory, you know.
So um go to the Christmas party,and I get there and I just start
looking around and it's like,man, this is what I want to do.
Um, you know, there is equipmentand the people and the
everything else.

(08:50):
So I searched out a recruiterright away at this Christmas
party, and it's like, I need totalk to you.
And my parents, you know,stepfather and my mother saw me
over at the recruiter and theycame over to try to rescue me,
and uh, it was too late.
We were I was in, you know.
So it took a little convincingto get them to sign the paper to

(09:12):
say, yes, I could go.
I was probably 15 and a half atthat time.
I couldn't sign up until I was16.
Um, but you know, they signedand said yes, I could do it, and
you know, it was probably thebest decision I'm I made in my
life.

SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
So you were pretty young when you went to basic
training then.
Yeah, yeah.
Younger than most.

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Very young, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
Talk to me about that experience.
It was interesting, you know,and uh coming from a small town,
you know, we it was just uh andthen going to basic training was
just such a diverse group ofpeople that you know I hadn't
met before, the you know,difference in personalities or
the difference in cultures andthings like that.

(09:54):
So that was interesting to uh goto basic training at that young,
you know.
Um it was interesting to youknow be part of a group and you
know, have people listen to youand you know, take take orders
from you.
You know, I became uh squadleader and you know it was it

(10:14):
was pretty cool at that age toyou know manage people that were
older than me.

SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
Yeah.
And it it's funny because I Ithink you know, if I look back
on basic training, um agemattered if the guy was like 40
years old and going through bootcamp, right?
Because they were like the oldman, but when you were it didn't
matter how young you were.
No you you learned chain ofcommand and you learned uh
leadership and and all thefollowership and all those

(10:41):
things.

SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Yeah.
What was the experience likewhen you first got off the bus
though?

SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Um so that was an interesting it was you know, so
I went to the reception stationuh first, uh, went to Fort Knox,
Kentucky for basic training, uh,went to the uh reception station
and uh they were very nicethere.
Nice drill sergeants.
And they uh you know took us tothe different places, got us our

(11:08):
uniforms, you know, got us setup in these old World War II
barracks.
So I was a little nervous aboutwhat we're gonna get into.
Right.
You know, is this what it'sreally gonna be like?
And and uh so it was I think itwas two or three days at the
reception station, and they werejust as nice as could be, you
know.
Hey, come on over here, here,let's have dinner, you know.

(11:30):
It was so you know, they weresetting us up for something, you
know.
Oh yeah.
So then uh the day we jump onthe bus to go over to our actual
basic training site, um theywere there along with every
drill sergeant in Fort Knox thatwasn't busy.
Uh-huh.
And it just became, you know,Hell Week started.

(11:52):
Right.
You know, they get you on thebus, uh, got you off the bus.
And like I said, I think theyhad every drill sergeant that
wasn't busy there to help you.

SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
To welcome you aboard.
Right.
That's funny how they like lullyou into that false sense of,
oh, this is gonna be okay, andthen yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like, you know, I can dothis.
And then it's like, whoa, what'dI get into?
Right.
Yeah.
I think uh most people have likethat second thought, like for at
least a few seconds when theywhen they first start getting

(12:23):
yelled at.

SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah.
And and you can't do anythingright, you know.
Right.
You can't get off the bus fastenough, you can't get your
duffel bag quick enough, youknow, and it's there's not the
aisles aren't big enough on thebus.

SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Right.
It's not till year years laterwhere you realize, oh, that was
all by design.
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
When I became a drill start and then I realized,
oh that's why they do this.
Here's the plan.

SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Right.
There's always that one or twoguys that figures it out in
basic, but most of us were like,yeah, chasing our tails.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you uh you go to basic, uh,you come back home, you do your
senior year at high school.
Yeah.
Uh and then did you did you goback to Fort Knox for AIT?

SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because um I was I went in as atanker, uh-huh, our armor
crewman, and it's a one-stationunit training normally.
So you go in and you do yourbasic training and your AIT at
the same time.
Um, but with the delayed programand the split split option that
I did, I ended up um you knowgoing back this the second time

(13:26):
and getting normally what wouldhappen is you'd be put into a
unit that's already going.

SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
And uh what uh happened in this one, there were
so many split options comingback, they put us all together.
So it was kind of nice.
Everybody was brand new back atFort Knox again.
Uh-huh.
Uh at this point I was uh I wasan E2, so I got some rank in
there, so that was kind of cool.
Yeah.
Um and again, the drillsergeants weren't as harsh as

(13:57):
the basic training phase, butthey were still, you know,
pretty like basic traininglight.
Yeah, basic training light.
Yeah, they uh still uh you knowgetting us back into the uh the
spirit of things.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
What's funny because I was gonna ask you that.
Like when you uh when they dothe you know the the group goes
through all together, it wouldbe really tough to come back and
join a group that got in basictraining together because
they've formed all theserelationships, but it sounds
like they really did you guys asolid.
Yeah, it was a good goodopportunity there for us to uh
you know start start fresh.
Now how long was uh AIT for you?

SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
So eight eight weeks.
Okay.
So it was eight weeks.
Uh it was actually a fun periodof time because you know, at uh
you know, 17, 18 shooting tanksand driving tanks and doing all
that stuff was pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, you're not gonna get that working at
flipping burgers somewhere, areyou?
I'm always amazed, uh, you know,yeah, because I went in fairly
young myself, but I'm alwaysamazed looking back at the
amount of responsibility that wegive to very young people.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
When you think about special like pilots, you know,
at 2022, they're flying thesemulti-billion dollar machines,
and it's like, wow, you know.
Right, right.
And I'm sure that tank was too,but you know, we're not gonna
crash land a tank.

SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
No, and if you do, there's a big problem.
So uh once you got through AIT,uh where did you go from there?

SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
So I went to my unit.
I was in 84th division.
Um, it was a training unit.
Um, because when I joined up, uhthe recruiter asked me if I
wanted to be a drill sergeant.
And I thought that sounded likea great time.
I don't even didn't even knowwhat a drill sergeant really
was, other than seeing them onTV and movies, you know.
And it looks cool in the movies.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
So, you know, so I had to be atanker first, um, and then went

(15:50):
into the drill drill sergeantprogram.
So I got back.
Um, the one thing with uh drillsergeant program is they needed
drill sergeants bad.
So they were promoting peoplefairly fast.
Um, so I had to be an E4 to getsigned up for the drill sergeant
program.
So I caught I got that rankrather quick when I got back.

(16:13):
Um the second part of that wasuh when the class started, I had
to be an E5.
So I picked up E5 sergeantfairly quick.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
So you're a young sergeant, though.
I was, yeah, very young.

SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Yeah.
And uh, you know, but I'd alsotaken the heat of my first
sergeant.
My first sergeant did afantastic job when I got back to
the unit.
He uh laid out a path for me onhow to do all these things.
So I had all my schoolingcompleted as quick as I could,
you know, at a young age.
So when it came to E5, I hadeverything I needed to get

(16:48):
promoted.
Right.
And uh so then because the drillsergeant needed drill sergeant
program needed uh bodies, um theruling in at that time was
within once you graduate, youget your next rank.
So I already had all theschooling for that too.
So uh it was a one-year program.
Uh my battle buddy and I did theprogram together, and my other

(17:11):
battle buddy was a teacher.
Uh so you know it's kind of andwe kind of grew closer after
after that, but uh it was uh itwas a fun time.
We'd we'd get together in themorning on our motorcycles,
drive up to this place, uh,wherever the training was, uh do
our training all day long, comehome, study, you know, go back

(17:32):
the next day, do it again.
And wow, you know, just uhintense program of you know
leadership and how to do the dothe j do the job as a drill
sergeant.
So right.

SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
And I don't, you know, I don't want the point to
be lost either.
You um you you knew somebody whohad kind of walked you through
how to how to make sure you'reprepared for the next level.
And I think sometimes that justdoesn't happen.
I mean, you know, we're we'reresponsible for our careers, but
it's always great to havesomebody who's gonna kind of
help show you what you need todo so that you can be prepared.

SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
Yeah, and this guy, um uh first sergeant wrecker,
um, Roger Wrecker, he was uh amentor to not just me, but to
many people.
Two of his sons became firstsergeants, I became a first
sergeant, and I can't imaginehow many other people became
first sergeants because of his,you know, mentoring.
Yeah.
But you know, he laid out a laidout the path.

(18:28):
I mean, just exactly how Ishould have done it and how I
did it.
And, you know, I listenedluckily and was able to uh he's
uh 95 right now.
Really?
Still alive, and uh I'm hopingto see him maybe at Christmas
time.
Uh huh.
I saw his uh son, who's mybattle buddy, and uh just when I

(18:48):
went up there, went up to uhWisconsin a couple months ago,
so it was pretty cool.
And then we're gonna see ourother the two of us are gonna
get together and fly down toFlorida and see our other battle
buddy.

SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
So Oh, that's gonna be a good time.

SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Yeah, yeah, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
Yeah.
My my son who served in the armywas just visiting here uh and he
brought three of his battlebuddies that he had served with.
They hadn't seen each other in15 years, and they were all here
at the house hanging out,telling stories.

SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
So you can get together with these guys and
it's just like you never left.

SPEAKER_01 (19:17):
Yeah, pick up where you left off, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Yeah.
I've I've been out, you know, t24 years.
Yeah.
Or 20 22 years, and you know,we're still close today as we
were then, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a it's a great i and I itit's it I think the military is
the only place that you getthat, honestly.
I've worked in a lot ofdifferent areas, but the
military, those guys I can justpick up and and and and talk
with them and we're good.
You know, you said somethingelse there too, is uh, you know,
uh uh for Sergeant Wrecker was agreat leader, but you listened.

(19:50):
Yeah, you've got to be a greatfollower, otherwise you
otherwise you're not gonna getthese leadership lessons.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Yeah, I was young and hungry, you know.
Yeah.
So talk willing to learn, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
Talk to me about being a drill sergeant then.
So you make it through theschool and and you get promoted.
So now you're an E6 staffsergeant.

SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (20:07):
How old are you at that point?
You know, you're not very old.

SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
I should have wrote that down.

SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Yeah, it wasn't probably like 20 or something.

SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, 20, 22, 20.

SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Yeah, most of those guys are in the E4 mafia, but
you're a staff sergeant.

SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
It was uh a fun time.
It was uh, you know, interestingbecause you know, you know, the
kids would and I call them kids,but they're you know,
18-year-olds uh when we go inand push troops, uh, they would
just hit the walls, you know,get out of your way, do whatever
they had to do um to avoid pain.
Right.

(20:40):
Um I was in during the kindlerand gentler years of bragging,
you know, so it was kind ofcool.
You know, we there was stillwall-to-wall counseling, but uh
wasn't like it was in the past,you know, where you don't have
to beat up people to uh get yourget your uh point across.
Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
Um did they have stress cards?
No.
You weren't part of that year,though.

SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
No, no, we yeah.
No, we we gave them stress, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Right.
They needed it.
That's part of being in basictraining.

SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Yeah, so we we had a good good time.
You know, we'd go down as youknow, go as a unit um and get
assigned to a group.
Uh the beginning of basictraining is hell weeks.
Um, so about two weeks period oftime, you're there literally.
You have to get up in themorning, get dressed, get there

(21:30):
by five in the morning to wakethem up by five thirty.
Um you're there till eighto'clock, eight thirty at night
when you put them to bed.
You get home, you polish yourboots, get your uniform pressed,
you know, do everything likethat, and then go to bed and
start it over again the nextday.
And you do that for about everydrill sergeant does that for
about two, two to three solidweeks.

(21:51):
And then what happens is you uhas you start moving into the
different periods and phases ofthe basic training, you uh start
to lighten up a little bit.

(22:41):
So one drill sergeant does themorning PT, the other, then the
other drill sergeant comes in,then the you know, in the
evening one drill sergeant getscut loose early, and you know,
so it starts getting a littlebetter.
You can definitely see why thedivorce rate's so high in the
military, you know, especiallyin that that job, because you
are committed.

SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
That's your life, that's what you do, right?

SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
You've got to get those guys and you're you're in
charge of them through the wholething.
So then, you know, towards theend, excuse me.

unknown (23:10):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Let me try this towards the end of uh the the
phases, you know, it's theplatoon leader and the squad
leaders are doing all themarching and doing all the
cadence and doing everything,and you know, so it's kind of a
nice phase where the drillsergeant can kind of back off a
little bit.

(23:32):
Uh you know, you're still wakingthem up in the morning, you're
still putting them to bed atnight.
But you know, after that it'syou know the platoon sergeants
in charge of everything.
Platoon leader, excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
What's it so what's it like watching a group of
people come in who, you know,aren't clearly are not military,
and then seeing them come outthe other side.

SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
Yeah, so it's civilian to milit to military,
you know.
So it's you know, they're a lotof people come in with their
gangster attitudes and their,you know, I'm better, I'm not
better than you, but I'm badderthan you.

SPEAKER_01 (24:07):
And you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna get through this
without any ear BS, that kind ofthing.

SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, yeah, you gotta break them real quick or
they get recycled, you know, andthen you get recycled a couple
times, then they just send youhome.

SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
Right.
You know, so and how does thatreflect on the the the the drill
staff then when people getrecycled or get people get sent
home?
Is there a sense of how did Ifail that person?

SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
No.
And I'll tell you, the in thedrill certain program, in in the
drill cern academy, there's afallout rate.
Yeah, we know that.
So in basic training, we knowthere's gonna be a fallout rate,
and you know, we try our best toget them everything, but there's
some people that just are nevergonna get it or not made for the
military, and it's better tojust uh recycle them, put them

(24:52):
in another unit, see if they canstart over and start fresh.
Um, and if that like I said, ifthat doesn't work, then it's
time to go home.

SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Right.
Well, and not every noteverybody's suited for the
military.

SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
No, that's for sure.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
I'm sure you've seen your fair share of those folks.
Yeah.
So how long were you a drillinstructor?

SPEAKER_00 (25:08):
Too long.
So I was I got promoted to E8 atum oh I got my E7 fairly short,
maybe uh within my six-yearenlistment.

unknown (25:20):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
So um, but again, I had all my schools done, nobody
else had their schooling done.
Right.
So when this promotion came up,it was like, hey, he's got the
promotion.

SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Well, and I want to make a point too, because you
can you can check all thoseboxes, right?
But there's still you stillthere's things that you still
have to be a leader to get thosepromotions.
Yeah, you know, and I want to bevery clear about that.
Like, yeah, you got thesepromotions very quickly and very
young, but if you weren't readyfor them, you would not have
gotten them.

(25:50):
And I think that's a I don'twant to lose that point in this
conversation.

SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Yeah, and I had besides first sergeant record, I
had other good mentors that uhyou know pointed me in the right
direction and how to you knowwhat to do and how to do it
right.
You know, as a as a brand newdrill sergeant, you don't know
what you're getting into, youknow.
You've been trained, but youknow, it's it's all different
until you get in front of thetroops, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
So you don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
So I um and I want to stop for just one second
because you just said something.
What that if if you canremember, tell me about that
very first time where you're theyou're the man, you're the drill
instructor, and you get in frontof those troops.
What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
I think it was the coolest moment of my career,
yeah.
Just be able to do what I I wentin originally to signed up to be
a drill sergeant, and here I am.
I'm I'm there.
Um we'd go in pairs, you know,so we'd have two drill
sergeants, if not three persquad.
And uh it was uh it was veryinteresting.

(26:48):
We uh just to s you know seethese young men um you know
growing and learning andprogressing in the military was
fun.
You know, they stepped onthemselves a few times and

(27:10):
probably more than a few times,and you know, the the correction
was quick and and fairs.
Um one of my favorite things todo was um you know everybody had
to have their uniforms, everybutton buttoned up on their
uniforms, and these buttons,these uniforms had buttons
everywhere.
By design.
Yeah.
So I'd go around and check theuniforms in formation, and uh

(27:31):
they'd have to give me 10push-ups for each button I'd
find, and I could I could findbuttons, you know.
Right.
But uh so I had I had some kidsyou just owed me you know
hundreds of push-ups, you know,we knock out 20 right now, and
then we'd you know, come back,knock out 20 again.
And I had a good memory, so Ididn't uh miss anything.

SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
You were that guy, they were like, Oh, you're not
gonna get past this guy.

SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Yeah.
You know, I'll tell you oneinteresting story in basic
training, and I don't know what,you know, I was probably an E7
at that point, but uh all thedrill sergeants, it was a
Sunday, and Sundays morningswere usually a little more
relaxed.
Uh we let them go to church andwe let them clean their uniforms
and the barracks and things likethat.
And we were sitting in the drillsergeant's office, and uh a

(28:16):
young soldier came in and heknocked wrong on the door.
You have to knock three times,you have to announce yourself,
and then the drill sergeantsays, Enter.
And so he did it wrong.
Uh, came in, and all of hisdrill sergeants are around
there, and uh, so we give himpush-ups.
And then one of the drillsergeants asks him another

(28:37):
question, and he blows thatquestion and doing more
push-ups.
So eventually he can't do anymore push-ups, he's just his
arms are butter, right?
So then we give him a rifle andhave him do rifle drills, and
you know, we're so we're justasking these questions.
And one of the drill sergeantsin there knew every president
and what year they were, youknow, you know, presidents and

(29:00):
everything with this.
So this guy was just starting toask questions.
Who is the 54th president?
Who is you know, all thesedifferent things?
And this kid couldn't get any ofthem right.
So yeah, he was just butter atthe end and just a ball of
sweat.
And eventually it's like, okay,get out of here.
And uh, so we're sitting aroundkind of chuckling, and it's
like, what did he come in herefor anyway?
You know, and it ended up beinghe came in for a band-aid.

(29:23):
Oh man, you know, mistake.
Yeah, you know, you need yourbattle buddy for your band-aid,
not the drill sergeant.

SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
Lesson lesson learned, right?
Yeah, definitely.
You probably didn't knock onthat door again.
Never, never, yeah.
Good for him.

SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Learned a good lesson.

SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
Yeah.
Uh so you uh you see you you getthrough your first enlistment
six years, yeah, and uh youdecide this this is what you
want.
Like the military's for you, soyou decide to reenlist or talk
through that with me.

SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
I always said if it wasn't fun, I wasn't gonna do
it.
Yeah.
So it it was we were having fun.
Yeah.
Um, what was interesting aboutbeing a drill sergeant and
getting older was the troopswere still 18 and I was getting
older.
Right.
You know, so I was getting uh,you know, a little slower on my
running, a little slower on someother things and uh, you know,

(30:14):
to still push the troops, butuh, you know, some of the
younger drill sergeants, I letthem do the PT and I did the
other things, you know.
Right.
But I also got was very smartand I got a license in
everything I could get a licensein and trained in everything I
get training in.
I love training, I lovelearning.
Um, so when it came time to dothe forced march, you know, um

(30:38):
they looked around and said, Whohas uh who's a combat lifesaver?
And I was a combat lifesaver, sowho can drive the ambulance?
I had a license to drive theambulance.
So I'd be at the end of the endof the troops driving the
ambulance, you know, picking upall the stragglers instead of
being the guy with a backpack onmy back marching.

(30:59):
Right, you know, so learn how toget smarter than you know, I
could I could drive a deuce andhalf, a five ton, you know, I
could drive just about anything.
I had license for those, youknow.
So it's yeah, when it came up,you know, somebody needed
something, I had the license orI could do it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
So well, and and let's be honest, you you've
you've done the force march.
It's not like it's not likeyou've never done it, right?
It's not like you're askingthese guys to do something you
haven't done, you've done it.
And now it's somebody else'sturn.

SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
Yeah, multiple times, multiple times.
Yeah.
One of the uh some of the otherinteresting things in basic
training is in AIT is uh youknow the gas chamber.
Yeah, we all love that.
And uh going Going through it asa basic trainee, you know, was
interesting that they planted atree right outside the door.
So when you came out and youwere couldn't see anything and

(31:47):
you were slobbering and doingeverything else, people ran
right into that tree.
Uh years later, when I was adrill sergeant, that tree's
still there, but it's bigger.
Right.
So, but you know, to be in thatuh gas chamber with the gas mask
on and pushing troops throughit, you know, was different than
being the guy going through it,you know.
So it was it was fun.

(32:08):
The some of the other ones werelike grenades, you know, the
grenade range.
Um, you know, as a basictraining, you just there's a
fear there with that livegrenade.
Um, even though you practice alot and uh tried tried your
hardest, uh, you know, I didn'thave baseball in my background,

(32:28):
you know.
So it wasn't probably the bestthrow of my life, but uh, you
know, I got it out there.
But uh as a as a drill sir, andI was in the pit with this young
man, and uh he dropped it,pulled a pin, flipped it,
dropped it in our pit, and youknow, there was a sump in there.
It's it should have gone down inthe sump.

SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
I grabbed him, threw him over the wall.
I got over the wall and it wentoff.
I mean, it's like that's close.
That's a close call.
Super close.
Yeah.
Um, on the rifle range, Iremember a time where uh a
private um his weapon wasn'tworking, so he points it at me,
turns it and points it at me.

(33:10):
You know, I kick him in in thehead.
He had his hard hat on or hishelmet on, so he probably felt
it, but yeah, understood there'sa problem.

SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
But you didn't hurt him.

SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
Right, right.
So but just you know, the dumbthings that the privates do,
right?
You know, and you try to keepthem alive and everybody else
alive, including yourself, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
So Yeah, no one wants to get flagged on the
range.
That's not a good thing at all.
No.
Yeah.
So how long did you stay in inuh as a drill sergeant?
So I I mean you said too long,but really how long?

SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
Yeah, so I realized, you know, I was getting older,
and uh so I went and taught thedrill sergeant academy.
Okay.
Um so probably did uh drillsergeant maybe seven, eight
years.
Uh-huh.
And then I went to teach to thedrill sergeant academy.
Um, I did that for about twoyears, uh, then became the

(34:05):
commandant of the drill sergeantacademy.
And then uh uh right about thenDesert Storm broke out.
Yeah.
And the drills, you know, mynumber was up.
I was uh going.
And uh the general came out andsaid, anybody in the drill
sergeant academy is not goinganywhere.

(34:26):
And one of my buddies went myplace.
Um so that was Desert Storm,Desert Shield.

SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
Yeah, you know, period.
Yeah, the for like 91.
Was it 91?

SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Uh I think it was closer to 2000.
So yeah.
Oh, you're right.
Yeah.
I think it was nine ninety-nineor so.
Yeah.
And uh so again, I always saytell everybody to have a blessed
career, you know, right place,right time, uh-huh, you know,
with the promotions and with uheverything.
Um so I was a commandant of theacademy for quite a few years

(34:58):
and then finally got promoted tofirst sergeant, you know, and so
that was when I was kind of donewith the uh first sergeant,
though, was uh first sergeantover a company of drill
sergeants.
Oh, okay.
So I was still in the sametraining division and you know,
pretty much spent my wholecareer in training.

SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
So uh in between there, I went from a tanker to
artillery.
Um not that we ever worked onartillery because we were tank
drill sergeants, but right, youknow, the the people we were um
the the troops that we weretraining were artillery, so we
had to be artillery.

(35:37):
Um and then after that I went toinfantry uh later in my career.
And uh that was one of the againanother highlight, you know,
just uh reclass into infantry.
But so did you go to Benning asan instructor there or or you
were still so my uh so at thatpoint I was I was just finishing

(35:57):
up my drill sergeant, you know,career and going into the uh you
know academy and teaching theacademy and everything like
that.
So I reclassed in Fort Dix, NewJersey in the middle of a
hurricane.
And infantry in the middle of ahurricane is not fun.

SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
No, well, Fort Dix isn't fun to begin with.
No, no, let's just be honest,that place sucks.

SPEAKER_00 (36:20):
Nobody has a good good story about Fort Dix.

SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
No, I'd like to meet one person that does, but I
haven't met anybody yet.

SPEAKER_00 (36:25):
Right, right.
So it so it was good.
I got you know, three combatMOSs, um, proud of the infantry
one, uh, you know, the proud ofthe drill sergeant part of it,
and yeah, you know, and theneventually got promoted to E8 um
as a first sergeant in a as in acompany that's you know pushing

(36:48):
troops.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
So getting everyone prepared to to do what needs to
be done.
Yeah.
And that's you know, I thinkpeople I think people uh
sometimes discount theimportance of all of the
supporting elements that make itpossible to do what the army
does, right?
Yeah.
Like I I talk to people who say,Oh, well, I just served

(37:11):
stateside and supply orwhatever.
Yeah, but you made it possible,you know, to do what we had to
do.
I mean, if you don't havetrained troops, you're not going
to war.
Right.
Right.
You're not fighting the battle,you're not doing the job of the
military.
I think it's so important to beout there to be doing those
things.

SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
And everybody had a mission and yeah, exactly.
So you spent your whole yourwhole career then in training.
Doing what you wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Yeah.
So when I uh I was a firstsergeant for uh probably about a
year, year and a half.
Uh-huh.
And I had an opportunity tobecome uh assistant inspector
general.
And uh spent the last threeyears of my uh career as an
assistant inspector general,which was pretty cool.

(37:59):
Oh, that's awesome.
So I worked for a two-stargeneral and uh I worked for a
colonel, but we all worked forthe two-star general and the
two-star our our jobdescription, we were the eyes,
ears, and conscience of thisgeneral.
So our job was to keep him outof trouble.
Right.
So when a contractor would comeon base and say, Oh, I can
remodel your house for you forfree.

(38:21):
You know.
But get this contract.
Yeah, we were the we were theones that told told him no.
Yeah, we were the ones that uhdid investigations on
allegations of wrongdoing withinthe army.
And then uh I had a seven-statearea, or we did, we had a
seven-state area that we'd flyout to and inspect units every
year and make sure they wereready for war, you know, and

(38:45):
their mission.

SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
So wow.
Yeah, and and that's another uhimportant uh group.
The IG uh as a companycommander, you know, the IG can
be your friend.

SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
You know, it doesn't feel that way sometimes.
Right.
But they could be your friendbecause they do, they keep you
out of trouble.

SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Yeah, and it was interesting going in as an IG,
you know.
I had credentials from thegeneral and uh we'd go in, show
her the credentials.
They knew we were coming, andbut you know, the captains and
the colonels and everybody elsein in there were would get us
anything we requested, you know,so we could help them.

(39:24):
That's really what we're tryingto do, not just find issues, you
know.
But we didn't just find them,but we gave them suggestions on
how to fix them.

SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Uh-huh.
So you never had to use the oldline, which I have used in the
past, and that's don't don'tconfuse your rank with my
authority.
Right.
Right?
Because when it comes to that,there's the the the rank
matters, you have to berespectful, but uh you have a
job to do.

SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Absolutely.
So you uh you uh did you did youmove around a bit though?

SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
Um or were you kind of stationed in the same
stationed in the same area, youknow, just uh, you know, because
most of my work was in Fort Knoxand you know, we um the 84th
headquarters at that time was inMilwaukee, Wisconsin.
So, you know, and as an IG, Icould I could live anywhere and
fly to the seventh state area,you know.

(40:18):
Um, you know, if I had to, Idrove over.
I was originally over inWisconsin, and then I moved out
here in uh 2000.

SPEAKER_02 (40:26):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
So for a job.

SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
So you you came to Michigan for work then.

SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
Okay.
Were you married during all thistime?

SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
Yeah, my wife and I met.
I was an E4.

SPEAKER_01 (40:37):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (40:38):
And uh she she accepted it very well.
Uh her family didn't think I uhthat her and I were married
because uh, you know, when thefamily family functions came up,
I was never around.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
You know, you were a make-believe boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 (40:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Her her fam most of her familieswere here in Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (40:58):
And, you know, so we'd drive up or she'd have to
go up, and you know, I justwasn't I was always in training
or doing something, you know.
So it's you know, for many yearsthat was the joke, is if they're
even married, you know, becauseI I never showed up with them.
Yeah.
How'd you meet?
Uh so we met when I was veryyoung.

(41:22):
So we met in a bar.
Oh, well.
Wasn't that young, I guess, butit was drinking age was 18 at
the time.
You know, so we uh we uh kind ofmet at a bar.
Um she'll tell you tell you wemet at a movie theater.
Uh one of these other girls uhwanted to get with me.
Uh-huh.

(41:43):
And she was way young, and uh,you know, I wasn't interested,
but uh I met her there and thenuh met her at a bar uh just by
accident.
But uh as soon as I met talkedto her that night in the bar,
it's like I know this is the onefor me.
Yeah, you know, which wasamazing, you know, that you can

(42:04):
just have that feeling.
And we just hit our 40-yearanniversary October 5th.

SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
That's amazing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:11):
So you beat the odds.
Yeah, yeah.
We uh weren't even togethermaybe six months, and I proposed
to her uh and got married withina year and just you know Well,
congratulations, that's yeah,it's kind of a crazy story, but
it worked out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah, well, when you meet the right person, why why
mess around?
I mean, yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
Well, six months, that's longenough.
Right?
You probably knew right away,but you had to wait that
requisite six months.

SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
So I I proposed to a good Irish girl on St.
Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
Oh, well, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
You know, I can remember that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (42:47):
Yeah, that's not hard to do.
Hopefully you got married sothat you don't forget your
anniversary, too, right?

SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
Well, good.
So you uh you came to Michiganthen in the 2000s.
So you got when did you retirethen?
2002.
Okay.
So you left the military in 2002and and um so what what happens?
So first of all, I gotta askthis question before I say what
happens.
Yeah what was it like like thatlast day in uniform, and you

(43:18):
know that you're retiring andyou're gonna be leaving.
What was that like for you?
Because you spent your wholeadult life in the military.

SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
Yeah, I had I had my family there, uh huh, uh, which
was cool.
And uh it was in Milwaukee atthe headquarters.
The uh two-star general pinnedon a meritorious service medal
for me, which was pretty cool.
And the, you know, had a and Iand another medal.
I can't think of what it was,but the meritorious service is

(43:46):
one of them I was really hopingto get before I retired.
And uh, you know, to have thewhole my entire family there, my
kids and my uh my wife, thegrandparents, and everybody
else, it was pretty cool, youknow.
And then we had a little partyafterwards, and you know,
because cool part when youretire, they don't make you stay

(44:08):
the whole day.
Yeah, yeah.
You can you can you can go now,right?
So yeah, they in front of aformation headquarters company,
you know, it's like wow, youknow, so that was yeah, pretty
touching.

SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
That's pretty amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now you have you said you havekids?
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
How many?
So I have uh two.
Uh huh.
A daughter that's older and uhson that's younger.
So I started writing a bookabout my military career, yeah,
which is right here.
But um I I really did it becausemy kids never knew what I did in
the military.
Right.
You know, which is you know, ifand you think about it, most

(44:46):
veterans don't talk about whatthey did in the military.

SPEAKER_01 (44:48):
No, that's what that's what we that's what we
try and get people to do here.

SPEAKER_00 (44:51):
You probably know better than anybody, yeah.
So the uh but I would tell mywife, you know, I'm right gonna
write this book because my kidsdon't know what I what I did.
Yeah.
And uh she says, Well, I don'tknow what you did, and I was
married to you.
It's like, well, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
Supposedly married, right, according to the family.

SPEAKER_00 (45:10):
Right, right.
Yeah.
So it's it's uh been aninteresting journey.
I uh you know, as I write, youknow, some of these stories come
back to me and it's like, wow,you know, I remember that.
And then uh and uh then I'll Iwon't have, you know, for a
while I I'm just not motivatedto write or, you know, have that
writer's block or whatever, andthen I'll go back to it and uh

(45:30):
just hit it for a while and thenI'll stop for a while.
And I think I March was the lasttime I wrote in the book, you
know.
So it's been an interestingjourney trying to get it out,
you know.
I'd like to have it finishedhere soon so you know I can get
it to a first art and record.
Yeah.
And so he can read, you know,because I I certainly wrote some

(45:51):
nice pages about him.

SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Well, you know, I think everybody deserves that.
I I call it the it's a wonderfullife moment, you know, where you
get to see how you positivelyimpacted people.
I think so many people don't getthat, right?
And for him to be able to see,you know, there's some part of
him that understands it how heimpacted you, but for him to
read it and understand that youknow that he's the guy that

(46:14):
really helped you, yeah, that'sgonna mean a lot to him, I
think.
Yep, yep.
Yeah.
So you you get out in 2002 andum what what's next for for you
know retard retired firstsergeant veteran?

SPEAKER_00 (46:30):
So I worked uh for a contract company in commercial
real estate.
Uh-huh.
And um went in as a facilitymanager into a General Motors
plant.
The uh it was a Rhymlesstransmission, so just a small uh
rented property that GeneralMotors had, uh 280,000 square

(46:51):
foot.
And my job was to manage thefacilities.
And it was one of their first uhoutsourcing attempts of getting
the UAW and everybody else outof facilities and just letting
the UEW and everybodyconcentrate on making
transmissions.
Yeah.
So I went in there, um was ableto put in systems, and I I

(47:16):
relate the systems back to whatwe did in the military.
Um, you know, everything was asystem on how you do basic
training, how you do everything,you know.
So we put I put systems in thatuh the newest person on my team
could pick up and just go andrun with.
And uh in uh General Motorsliked what I was putting

(47:38):
together and they copied some ofmy systems and used them uh in
throughout all the rest of theirtheir buildings.
And so eventually GM liked whatwe did and said, Hey, we're
gonna do this at other plants.
Would you bid on these otherplants?
So we my uh boss and I would gettogether when a a bid would come

(47:59):
out and we'd put a packettogether and bid on these
plants.
And I went from 280,000 squarefoot facility to over six
million square feet infacilities, uh, from Toledo to
Ypsilani to Romulus, and we'restill we were still growing.
Yeah.
And uh, you know, my boss wouldsay to people, I don't know what

(48:21):
he's doing, he just does it, youknow.
So so eventually I went from afacility manager to a um senior
facility manager to vicepresident to you know moving up
in the chain to you know thevice president in charge in this
company, vice president offacility management.

(48:41):
Um so but I would always dosales and then always putting
these systems every time wemoved into one of these places.
And so one of the systems, I'llgive you an example.
You know, if we had a 10-inchwater main break, which took out
the water to the entire plant,um, we had systems in place that

(49:02):
within a half hour we'd haveporta potties in the plant, we'd
have porta sinks in the plant,we'd have 3,000 gallon trucks
coming in putting water in theircoolant systems.
So we never slowed down orstopped the production.
Um because it anytime you sloweddown or stopped the production,
you'd have every vice presidentin the company standing in front
of you, similar to the military.

(49:23):
Right.
You know, trying to figure outwhy you you can't get this
fixed.
So we put these systems in placeto fix them, which was very
similar to what we did in themilitary, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (49:33):
So it sounds like they were scalable too, right?
Yeah.
Like you put a system in placefor a small facility, you could
scale that up or scale that downdepending on what you're doing.
Yeah, correct.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is so important becausethen you're not reinventing the
wheel every time you dosomething.

SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
Yeah, and we used other unions.
Uh-huh.
So we didn't get in trouble withthe UEW.
They couldn't say much becauseit was union.
Right.
Right.
And uh, but we also, their otherunions were very creative.
And uh, you know, so theythey're also the ones that were
building the other manufacturingsites around the area.

(50:07):
So in 2008, when things got bad,you know, I went to the unions
and said, let's partner up.
Let's figure out how you knowthese C-level suite people.
I want to know them.
Right.
You know, we can do great thingstogether, you know, with uh
running the management, yourunning the people through.
So we built the business evenstronger through those racial

(50:30):
relationships, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (50:31):
And that was a tough time.
Yeah.
That was a really tough day.
That's a tough time to keep ajob.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (50:37):
Yeah, and we were growing and everybody everybody
else in our company was, youknow, staying still or going the
wrong direction.

SPEAKER_01 (50:45):
Right.
You might be building less, butyou're still building stuff.
Yeah.
Right.
And you can't again, you can'tafford a slowdown when you're
doing that.
Right.
And I, you know, it it'sinteresting you talk about
building that partnership withwith the union because uh it's
if you're in a unionenvironment, that's so
important, uh, to to get rid ofthe us and them mentality and

(51:06):
and and come back with a wementality that you can work
together.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
And I think that's just uh good leadership from the
military.
Yeah.
We have to figure out how towork together and uh complete
the mission.

SPEAKER_01 (51:19):
If you if you think about military structure, I
mean, honestly, you havemanagement, which is kind of the
officer corps, and you have thethe union, which I think the
first sergeant's like your unionsteward, right?
He's there to take care of theenlisted people.
Right.
Also there to get the themission done, you know, that's
that's been worked out, but totake care, to make sure the
enlisted folks are taken careof.
Right.
Yeah.
Yep.
So you've worked both sides ofthat uh that equation.

SPEAKER_00 (51:42):
Yep.
So I did that for yeah, okay,cool.
Uh 13 years in the GeneralMotors plants.
Uh-huh.
Um, then I moved on to uh COOposition of a 17 million dollar
company and did that for about ayear downtown downtown Detroit
and uh got oper an opportunityto uh I had a few other little

(52:04):
things in there, but uh I had anopportunity to be a COO of a$70
million company downtown Detroitand uh to turn them around.
They were stuck at$70 millionfor um about four years, uh-huh.
Couldn't grow, couldn't make anyforward progression.
So I came in and we changed theworld on them.

(52:28):
And the CEO let me do it.
You know, we divorced$9 millionworth of business, what was bad
business that wasn't good forhim.
The brought in another ninemillion dollars of new business
that was good business, uh, madethem money, um, changed
department heads, changedpeople, you know, just got the
right players in the right seatsand you know, moved the company

(52:51):
forward.
But, you know, after the uhafter the uh about a year, uh
the the CEO came to me and said,Hey, thanks.
I got it from here once I fixedit for him.
Right.
You know, so it's like okay, Ican see where this is going, you
know.

SPEAKER_01 (53:07):
Thank you for your service.
See you later.

SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, but I think againit was the military kind of the
background of you know, gettingeverybody kind of in lockstep
and right doing the right thingsand that helped that
progression, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (53:24):
So you left there and did you continue working
then?

SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
So I left there and I took a year, you know.
Trying to find a COO position isa very hard, right?
Hard uh thing to do.
You know, there's not that manyof them out there and not many
that are open.
Yeah.
So um uh took took some othersmaller jobs, you know.
You know, I was eitheroverqualified or I was uh, you

(53:51):
know, they they didn't have thejob, you know.
You know, so uh so I took someother smaller jobs just to do
that.
I also started my own businessat that time, uh property
management company.
Uh picked up uh five fivebuildings or five properties um
that were smaller, and so I justdid that on the part-time yeah
and uh eventually um I did wellmy first year doing that, and I

(54:15):
looked at the books andeverything and said, you know,
maybe I've got something here.
So I started my own business andstopped working for other people
and building their business andstarted building my business.
So from 2018 on up until thisyear, I had my own business
going.
So uh this year I officiallyretired at 60.

SPEAKER_01 (54:37):
So yeah.
You're not really retiredthough, you're gonna find
something to do up that.

SPEAKER_00 (54:41):
I'm retired.
Yeah, I sold all the trucks, allthe tools, everything.
I'm I'm retired, you know.
But I had some health issues andjust uh trying to get healthy
now.
Yeah, you know, and not worryabout the silly stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (54:55):
Time to build some systems for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, t tell me a little bitabout your kids.
What are they doing now?

SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
So my son worked for me for a little while, about a
year and a half.
Um, but he he was working at FMGconcrete cutting and uh doing
really well in that company.
Um worked for me for about ayear and a half, and then uh
they came back and made him anoffer he couldn't refuse, so
he's back there doing that.
Oh he goes all over the state ofMichigan and uh cuts concrete.

(55:25):
He he drills holes from bigholes to little holes.
Uh-huh.
But uh he's so he's in all theseplants that I used to be in.
You know, so it's kind of coolto hear some of the stories, you
know.
Um my daughter is a stay-at-homemom.
Um she has two children with herfirst husband.

(55:46):
Um she has um just got marriedher second time.
She has or she has another childwith uh new husband.
And um he had two children.
So she has children right nowfrom 18 to 3.
Oh, she's busy.
Oh, yeah.
She's super busy.

(56:06):
Yeah, and they're all inMichigan then.
Yeah, right here in Howell.
Oh, right in Howell.
Excellent.
Both of them.
So that's kind of cool.
We get to see my son has uh uheight-year-old.
Uh huh.
So you know, we get to see himevery now and then.

SPEAKER_01 (56:19):
So yeah.
It's nice to be a grandparent,isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (56:22):
It is, it's fun.
Yeah, I took my youngest um thisweek, and we went off and just
did things.
We went to a pawn shop and uhand uh just looked around at the
pawn shop and kept him busy fora little while.
Went to McDonald's, had lunch,took him to get a haircut, so it
was kind of cool to just spendthe day with him.

(56:43):
Yeah.
My uh wife and my daughter werewondering if I was ever coming
back.

SPEAKER_01 (56:49):
Did you find they exhaust you?

SPEAKER_00 (56:51):
Yeah, at the end he did, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
At the end he was I was tryingto pull something off my
computer and get information,and he didn't want to hang out
with grandma.
He wanted to hang out with me,you know.
Of course.
So I was like, wow, can I justget a break for a second here?
You know, right.

SPEAKER_01 (57:06):
I just need a couple minutes.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:08):
Get this paperwork done.

SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Well, we've we've talked about a lot of stuff
tonight, uh this actually thismorning.
Um, is there anything we haven'tcovered that you wanted to talk
about?

SPEAKER_00 (57:17):
Um, so I'll tell you one interesting thing.
As a 16-year-old kid gettingready to join the army, I had to
go to Milwaukee, Wisconsin forMEPS.
Yeah.
And that's your entry program,military entry program, where
they do your physical and see ifyou're fit to be in the
military, and then they assignyou your duty or your MOS, your

(57:38):
military occupation specialistspecialty, which was a tanker
for me.
Um, I originally wanted to go inas a cook.
I was a McDonald in McDonald'sas a young man, uh, AW
McDonald's, you know, I wascooking, and uh, and they said
the recruiter told me I couldget uh E3 right away when I
joined because I could because Ihad experience and I thought, oh

(57:59):
there you go, I get in rank.
And uh I went into maps andfound out I was colorblind,
which which I knew.
Uh huh.
And they said you can't be acook.
And it's like, why?
Salt and pepper, black andwhite.
Right.
I don't understand, you know.
But they said, Do you want to bea tanker?
And you know, and it's like,yeah.

(58:19):
Well, you can't be a cook, butyou can drive a tank.
Right, right.
That's funny.
It was it was interesting.
Um, but you know, we went inthere and uh it was just an
eye-opening.
It took the bus for the firsttime in my life to get down
there.
Uh-huh.
Uh about two-hour drive in abus.
And uh so had a lot of firsts.

(58:39):
Uh got a hotel room.
Uh, so myself and another guywere teamed up in this hotel
room that was going throughmaps.
Uh, didn't know him fromanybody, and he didn't know me.
And so we're sitting in thisroom going, hey, what should we
do?
And we decide to go out on theand walk around town.
Yeah.
And obviously, this wasn't inthe best place of town, but we

(59:02):
16, you don't know that.
You don't know that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (59:04):
MEPS rarely is in the good part of town.
Right.
Rarely.

SPEAKER_00 (59:07):
So we uh we go out and start walking around the
town, get get probably fourblocks down the road, and um
these ladies of the night arehooting and hollering at us and
yelling for us to come over andsee them.
And uh, you know, here I am, 16,going, what the heck did I just
get into?
So this guy and I decide we'regonna run.

(59:28):
We're running back to the hotel.
This is not for us, we got toget somewhere safe.
Um, so we're running, they'rerunning after us.
Um, we're we're cruising, justabout get to the hotel, and they
cut through an alley that theyknew the place better than we
did.
Yeah, and all of a sudden theygot us cornered and they're
like, Oh, come on, you know, Ithink there's four girls.

(59:48):
Uh-huh.
And it's like, oh my God, youknow, I have no money.
I'm 16.

unknown (59:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:53):
I'm gonna do anything anyway.
I I just want to get back to thehotel room and get out get away
from this.
But you know, so finally we wejust we got out of there, got
back to the hotel room, and theyrealized we we broke, right?
Broke kids, you know.
Right.
So that was that was done.
But it was an interesting storythat you know I don't think I've
ever told anybody because youknow, maybe my buddies, you

(01:00:15):
know.
Right, yeah, yeah.
But you know, it's like, oh mygoodness.
So next day we go to MEPS andwe're going through everything,
and the uh, you know, we we getin this big room, the doctor
comes in, and we're in ourt-shirts and skivvies, and
doctor says, turn around andface the wall.
We all turn around and face thewall, and uh basically says,

(01:00:40):
drop your drawers.
So we'll do that.
And uh he says, Bend over, grabyour cheeks.
And naturally there's one guy inthere that grabs grabs his
cheeks.
Right.
And they weren't drillsergeants, but they were acted
like drill sergeants at thattime, and they were all over
this guy, and say, No, you thinkyou're funny, wrong cheeks, you
know.

(01:01:00):
So we had that experience, youknow, at S16 wasn't uh pleasant,
pleasurable or wanted.
But uh, you know, came out ofthat and you know, signed the
paper, raised her hand, and youknow, as a group and got sworn
in.
So yeah, that was frequent.
Then jumped on the bus and wentback home.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:19):
Wow.
Yeah.
Learned a lot in a very shortperiod of time.
Yeah, yeah, as a young man.
Exactly, exactly.
Well, thanks for sharing that.
And also, um, you know, as wekind of wrap things up, I I like
to ask people kind of the samequestion every time, and that is
you know, people listening tothis story years from Now,
whether it's family, friends, orjust someone who wants to know

(01:01:41):
about our military history, whatuh you know, what would you like
to leave them with?
What piece of advice or or youknow about how you lived your
life, what you did in themilitary, you know, what would
you like to leave for people?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:53):
I I think it was the best decision I ever made in my
life.
I think it uh shaped my life, mycareer.
I think it shaped, you know, theway I led in work and in the
family.
Uh sometimes good, sometimesbad.
Uh, you know, the drill sermonin me would come out every now
and then.
And I try really hard not to letthat guy come out.

(01:02:14):
But uh, you know, just think ofwhat a blessed career I had.
You know, when I retired fromthe military, the guy who took
my spot six months later wentoverseas.
And so I was right in thiswindow.
You did everything the firstsergeant record told me to do,
you know, got, you know, like Isaid, right place, right time,

(01:02:35):
had a blessed career.
Um, the opportunities I had tomeet people, shoot things, do,
you know, just the weaponssystems I was able to shoot, uh,
different things, you know, itwas it was pretty cool.
I always said it was not fun,I'm not gonna do it.
And it was fun, you know.
It was uh and you don't realizewhat a good decision staying in

(01:03:00):
the 20 years and retiring.
I retired at 37.
Yeah.
And uh I've been out longer thanI was in.
But the blessings that arehappening right now when I'm 60,
you know, my retirement comes inevery month, my health insurance
is paid for, you know, I payvery little every month for my

(01:03:22):
TRICARE.
And, you know, it's like, wow,you know, I was self-employed
for you know, seven years, and Iknow what paying health
insurance costs.
Right.
You know, it's and to see thishealth insurance that the
government's taking care of me.
The VA takes great care of me.
I mean, all the diff just thedifferent benefits that you
have, I think, is you know,people just don't realize what

(01:03:44):
that opportunity afforded them.

unknown (01:03:46):
You know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:48):
Well, and I think, you know, we go in for one
reason and we come out, andthere's all these other things
we didn't think about that wereyeah, you know, they're
blessings for us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:55):
And I didn't think about them until later in life.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, wow, youknow, hindsight here, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:01):
Oh, exactly.
All right.
Well, Jim, thanks for comingout.
I know it took us a little whileto get together, but I'm glad
that we finally did.
Yeah.
Um, thanks for sharing yourstory.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:08):
All right, thank you.