Joe Spackman's life reads like a novel spanning the Cold War to the pulpit, with unexpected twists that reveal how our darkest chapters can become our greatest ministry tools.
Born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1948 and raised in Lansing, Michigan, Joe's journey took a pivotal turn when his poor college grades resulted in a draft notice during Vietnam. Enlisting for an extra year to choose his training, he selected "fixed siphony repair" solely because it was the longest program available – unwittingly stepping into the world of secure voice communications with a clearance level reportedly higher than the president's.
Stationed in Berlin at the former Liebstandard Adolf Hitler barracks, Joe found himself at a surreal crossroads. Having previously embraced neo-Nazism and occult practices after being rejected when expressing interest in ministry as a teenager, he now stood 110 miles behind what would be enemy lines if hostilities erupted. Military police had clear instructions: ensure personnel like Joe destroyed sensitive equipment and, if necessary, shoot them rather than allow capture – a sobering reality that forced him to reevaluate his worldview.
After military service, Joe reconnected with Nona, whom he'd met at Lansing Community College. Their relationship blossomed into a 53-year marriage that began at Christ United Methodist Church. By 1974, both experienced profound spiritual conversion during a lay witness mission, igniting Joe's second calling to ministry – one that would be affirmed rather than rejected. His theological journey led him through seminary and a transformative year at Wesley's Chapel in London before serving multiple Michigan churches as a circuit pastor.
Perhaps most powerful is how Joe leveraged his journey through darkness to connect authentically with others struggling in similar spaces. When confronted by a troubled goth teenager claiming to be Satan, Joe replied simply, "I've seen Satan and you're not him, but you're always welcome here" – words that helped transform her life and exemplify his core belief that no one is "too bad, lost, or not grown up enough to change."
What unexpected chapters of your own story might become the foundation for helping others find their way?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning.
Today is April 7th, 2025.
We're talking with Joe Spackman, who served in the United
States Army.
So good morning, joe.
Good morning, it's great to seeyou here.
Nice to be here, yes, and we'reglad that you made it, even
though I gave you the wrongaddress.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
No, you gave me the right address.
It's just Miss Google gave memisdirection.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah well that's Google for you, right?
Well, we'll start out realsimple.
When and where were you born?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was born in Norfolk .
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Virginia in 1948, January of 1948.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, and did you live in Norfolk most of your
life or did you move around?
How'd that work out?
No, actually, my father was abaker a civilian baker for the
naval base and he got a joboffer in Michigan when I was
about three years old atSchaefer Baking Company.
By the time he got here withthe family, that job had been
(01:01):
filled, so he got another job onWest Saginaw at Goss Baking
Company in Lansing.
So that's how we got here toLansing and I've been here ever
since.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Wow, I remember the old Schaefer Bread place.
My uncle lived over there andwhen I would stay with him you'd
wake up in the morning and justsmell that fresh bread.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's pretty amazing .
It is yeah.
So whereabouts in Lansing didyou live.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I grew up.
The first house we lived in wason Cavanaugh Road, out by
Dunkel.
Then we moved.
When I was about five or six wemoved into Lansing on Pine
Street, went to Walnut StreetSchool, walked then to West
(01:51):
Junior, walked and went toSexton, graduated from Sexton in
1966 and walked there too untilI got my brother's car and got
to drive to school.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Oh, that's exciting.
Yeah, so you had a brother.
Did you have any other siblings?
No, okay, there's one brother.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
He's a retired bird colonel from the Army.
Oh all right, Engineers.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, Well, talk to me a little bit about what it
was like growing up.
Now I know your dad was a baker.
What did your mom do?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
She was a housemaker, and she did that until my
father um, until all both of uskids were out of the house, uh.
And then she got a job at napsokay and she worked in the linen
department I love that napstore by.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, I'm glad that they've kept it.
Yeah.
It's a beautiful place.
It is.
Yeah, so you know, if I were toask you, you know what is like
when you think about your mom,what is a memory that you have
of her.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh, I got lots of memories.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
She was how can I say this?
She was a typical middle,middle-class American woman, uh,
raising a family in Lansing.
She didn't work.
She never drove um, cause dadhad the car and he we used it to
(03:22):
go to work and brought themoney home, and that was fine.
When she got her own job, shealways rode the bus or walked to
work or one of us kids pickedher up.
So she was actually.
She was quite well known bysome folks.
(03:44):
When I was in the military, partof my job was to be a secure
voice communications specialistand when I got that job and got
sent to Berlin first and I hadto do secure voice checks around
(04:12):
the world just to check thesystem, and I once called the
National Guard headquarters hereon Washington Avenue and the
person who answered was thecolonel at the time and he
didn't know how to go secure andso I tried to talk him through
it and he says well, what buttondo I have to push?
(04:33):
And I said there should be alittle white thing on the phone
cradle.
Well, I don't have one of those.
Well, thanks.
He says, is there anything Ican do?
I said yes, my mother just youknow.
He says is there anything I cando?
I said yes, my mother works atNAPS.
Oh, I've been to NAPS lots oftimes.
And he says I can stop by thereand tell her that.
(04:55):
You said hi.
And I said okay.
So he did go up and my motherwrote to me and said this
gentleman came up and he saidyou had called him and that I
was fine.
So that was a pretty neat idea.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh yeah, so your mom would get random visits once in
a while.
Is that how that worked?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Thanks to you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, great.
So what about your dad?
What are some of your memoriesabout your dad?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Well, my dad played Santaus around that time of year
and he would go to naps andrent the costumes that they had
and I kind of picked up thatfamily business.
But we never had to to have the.
(05:43):
We had these moments of when hewe never lack for bread.
I can tell you that I believeit.
But one of the things that theyalways gave him around I can't
remember what holiday, but theyalways gave him lobsters for
(06:04):
some reason, oh, I can'tremember what holiday, but they
always gave him lobsters forsome reason, oh, and he would
bring them home and my motherwould have to put them in the
scalding hot water and thingslike that, uh-huh, but he always
kept them in the basement andour house on Pine Street had a
Michigan basement and he'dalways take them down there
(06:25):
because she didn't like to clean.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And so he would go down there and he'd take us kids
down there and look at them.
You want to put your hands inthe claws.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
No, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I learned that really quick.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's a lesson you only have to learn once, isn't
it?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Wow, so you and your brother?
Is your brother older oryounger?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Older, six years older.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Oh, okay, so it wasn't like you guys hung out
together as kids.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I do have a funny story about that.
Oh, I'd love to hear it.
It was wintertime because itwas just three blocks away.
Went to Seymour Avenue,methodist Church, german
Methodist Church, and one day hewas coming.
(07:17):
We had a big social event atthe church and he brought his
girlfriend home.
And, of course, at the churchand he brought his girlfriend
home and of course he wasdriving the car and I got out
and he was in the house with herand I hid in the back seat and
hunkered down and they both gotin the car and as I peeked up
(07:40):
over the back seat, he waskissing her and I thought that
was the funniest thing in theworld, because I was only like
11 or 12, right, and I juststarted laughing.
And the next thing I know, I getblows on the head, you know and
the door opens and he pushes meout, but I just I never stopped
laughing.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was just hilarious in my Well, speaking as a
younger brother, right, that'sthe kind of fun that you would
have.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
So let's talk a little bitabout school.
You kind of walk through thedifferent schools that you went
to and it's interesting becauseI think of all those schools,
sexton's the only one stillstanding.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That's correct.
Well, they're standing, butthey're no longer schools,
unlike one's still standing,that's correct well, well,
they're standing, but they're nolonger schools.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, unlikeeastern, which is gone now.
Yes, but that's a story foranother time.
Yeah, yes, for sure.
So what was school like for you?
It was hard, as I kindergarten.
I kindergarten was tough for mebecause I was a literal thinker
(08:44):
and my parents brought me upright, and so when we played,
had playtime, and one of thegirls asked me to play house or
whatever it was, and so I wasgetting ready to leave the house
(09:07):
and I gave her a kiss and thatwas a bad thing to do.
Even back then it wasn't, ohyeah.
So that was my first kiss andprobably my only one until a
long time after that.
Right, but I didn't know reallyhow to read until I got to
second grade and I had a reallygood teacher.
(09:29):
Her name is and I'll neverforget her name Mrs Wellman, and
she taught me how to read andgave me a book that I was really
interested in.
So kudos to her, wherever shemay be, because she was a gem,
yeah, and got me reading, andthat's got me reading all the
(09:52):
time now uh-huh, was that like a?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I have to think that was like a life changing moment,
like when you're able to read.
That changes the whole game forschool especially.
Yes, because you have to beable to read to do math.
You have to be able to read todo math.
You have to be able to read todo a lot of things.
Right, you do yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yes.
And then in third grade I havemany stories about it I almost
got kicked out of class forfighting.
But the teacher again, mrsSharp.
I remember these teachers,three teachers in grade school
very well.
Mrs Sharp just calmly took meout in the hallway and she says
(10:32):
you know, I don't think yourparents would be appreciative of
what you're doing and let's tryto get along with people a
little bit better.
And I said okay, and she saysI'm not going to send you to the
principal's office or anything,we're just going to try this
again.
But remember, this is your oneand only strike.
(10:54):
And.
I took that to heart, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So who's the third teacher?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Third teacher was Mrs Teddy.
Okay, she was my sixth gradeteacher and it was—she taught us
to sing songs and it didn'tmatter whether they were
religious or secular, it didn'tmatter at all.
She was just a pleasant personand I'll always remember she had
(11:24):
gotten her thumbs crushed whenshe was little and there was
thumbs just didn't do anything,they were just stuck out like
that and um.
But she was very, very open andwelcoming and it also when we
go out to recess, uh, one of thethings that uh was take me to
(11:50):
the nurse.
After we were playing softballand I was catcher and this
pitcher pitched the ball andthis sadistic batter hit the
ball directly between us, thepitcher and me, and we ran
together and hit heads and wewere both knocked out.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Oh, my gosh, just like the cartoons.
Yes, did you see little birdsor stars or anything?
I?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
was just flat out gone.
Yeah stars or anything.
I was just flat out gone, yeah,and the next thing I remember
is waking up with the nurse inthe nurse's office.
So somehow miss, miss teddy gotme into there, and the other
person too, because he wasknocked out.
Yeah so, and I learned how toduck at that time yeah, I'll bet
(12:42):
.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'll bet.
So this is a.
This is a point in time too,where there wasn't middle school
.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You had right, you went to sixth grade and you went
to junior high yes, junior highat west junior yeah, so tell me
a little about west junior well, that was my first fight that I
actually got into and that wasa person who sat behind me in
(13:08):
homeroom.
That was the first experienceof homeroom, but our teacher
didn't very often come inbecause he was also the
basketball coach and that typeof stuff.
So, he spent a lot of time inthe gym and he just figured we'd
be okay on our own.
And this kid behind me I wasprobably at that time one of the
(13:33):
biggest kids in school becauseI was bulked up, not muscular,
but just fat.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You and me both, brother, you and me both.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And he kept on flicking my ear.
He'd just bing, and me both.
And he kept on flicking my ear,you know, just bing.
And finally I just got so tiredof that that I turned around
and I said don't ever do thatagain.
And he says what are you goingto do?
So we went into the cloakroomand we started fighting and I've
never been a good boxer and sohe landed quite quite a few
(14:04):
punches.
But once I got a hold of him, Ijust got him in a headlock and
started ramming his head intothe wall and I didn't stop until
three kids got me off of himand he never touched me again.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I'll bet.
I'll bet everyone else thoughttwice about yeah too right yes
yeah, so all through, kind ofthrough that, how was junior
high school for you then?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
it was fine.
I was looking forward to beingin ninth grade because the ninth
graders had a football team andI always wanted to play
football.
So when I got into ninth gradeI tried out for the football
team and I made the team becauseI tackled the coach and because
(14:54):
I could tackle the coach, hesent me in to get my uniform and
that's how I started myfootball career.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, that could have gone one of two ways right, yes
, it could.
Oh my goodness, so whatposition did you play?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I played tackle, offensive tackle.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Oh wow, all right, so that was the start of your
football career.
Yes, and then I'm assuming yougo on to high school, did you
continue?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
to play.
I did, yeah, I played for wellfor one year with Russ Maples
and then two years with Majeski,and yep, that's what I did JV
first and then varsity in mysenior year.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and so did Sexton and Eastern still share a
field at that time.
Yes, Okay, because that wasalways fun and it seemed like we
when I was in school it seemedlike we always played Sexton for
our homecoming, which was kindof a nightmare, Cause that's a
pretty big rivalry.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, it is.
It always was a lot more sothan Everett.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean Everett was just kind of there, right.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, I remember those days, at least for me.
So apparently, uh, even evenback in the 60s, it was kind of
the same thing oh, yes, yes soyou graduated high school in 66.
You said correct, okay, well,let's talk about what happens.
Like you, you get throughschool, you're all set, you
graduate.
And then what?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
then it came, uh lcc uh-huh and I've got a student
deferment because there was thedraft.
Then Vietnam was going on and Ifound I got.
Another learning lesson wasthat the government watches your
grade point average and when mygrade point I was not a serious
(16:39):
student.
I met Nona there, but Right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
You were serious about Nona, just not about
school.
Right, I got you.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And she has a different story.
However, but I found out thatonce my grade point fell below
two points, I got my draftnotice on Halloween of 1967,
which told me to report forinduction, and I said, oh
(17:10):
thrilling.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, maybe I should have studied a little more.
That darn Nona she got me introuble.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It wasn't just her, I tell you.
It was the group I hung outwith.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, yeah, they weren't serious students either.
I take it no, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
But my one claim to fame is that I was one of the
founding members of the LCCMarching Kazoo Band.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Really yeah, and I'm familiar with that.
That thing's still going ontoday, isn't it, is it?
I don't know.
Yeah, well, I remember in highschool, it was still a thing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know aboutnow.
I went to lcc myself for alittle while.
So, yeah, so founding member.
Yeah, did you guys like uhmarch at uh at events, or was
just something you just did?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
well, you know, at that time we didn't really have
teams.
I mean, you know, it was just asmall thing as just one
building and we didn't have anyathletic facility or anything.
So we just hung around andmarched around with our kazoos
around the hallways or you knowwhatever.
And that was about it.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's quite a way to not attract attention.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yes, yes, it is.
Wow, that's pretty amazing.
That was about it.
That's quite a way to notattract attention.
Yes, yes, yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Wow, that's pretty amazing.
So you met Nona there.
Let's talk about that a littlebit.
So how'd that go?
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well, my story is that better because she also
worked at the corner qualitydairy, okay, and that's where I
really got to know her Uh-huh.
But I wanted to date herbecause I thought she was the
most beautiful woman that I'dever seen.
And I never had dates duringhigh school because I was one of
(19:05):
those kids that just was anoutcast and I lorded over that
you know, and I was a bully inmy neighborhood, you know.
So I had I had issues you hadstuff to work on.
Yeah, that's right, joe and andso when I wasn't terrorizing the
neighbors and I get, my mothersent me up for a lot of milk
(19:31):
during those days years.
And so I got to know her and Ifinally got the courage up to
ask her out for a date.
And it was the same day that,uh, she came into work and she
was crying oh, and uh, I, I.
(19:51):
But I went ahead with it and Iasked her out for a date and, um
, she didn't really want to goout because what had happened
was the the guy she was, the hadhappened, was the the guy she
was, the the other guy she wasdating.
Um, she wasn't dating me, but,uh, the other guy had told her
that he was getting married thatweek, and not to her oh my gosh
(20:14):
, yeah, wow so she got jiltedand I happened to be.
That was the day that I gotenough courage to ask her out.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Not a good time no, and thankfully not, because
you'd have been the rebound guyand nobody wants to be the
rebound guy right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, I wouldn't have minded, Right, right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh yeah, that's true.
I want to ask this is kind of aweird question, but was it the
Quality Dairy there on Cedar?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
No, it's the Quality Dairy on the corner of Pine
Street and Saginaw.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, very familiar.
I used to work at ConsumersEnergy.
So yeah, right down.
Okay, I was just trying to geta visual of where exactly this
was at.
So yeah, little quality dairiesin all these neighborhoods.
It was kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, they're still there too.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
They definitely are still selling milk.
Definitely, but yeah, so shegot jilted.
You asked her out.
Not a good time.
What happens next?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, I kept on asking her.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You're persistent.
I'm persistent.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yep.
And finally she decided to goout with me because she just
wanted to get it over with.
And so we went out and ourfirst date was memorable.
I took her to the movies at theGladmer Theater and we saw A
(21:32):
man for All Seasons.
And then there was a tornadoalert on that night, and so we
went out and chased tornadoes.
Oh, and we almost found oneover Grossbeck.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
What year would this have been?
That was what 1967 okay allright, yeah, yeah, some wild
times here.
So so you're out chasing.
So now you're like, oh well,maybe this is going to work out.
So did you get that second date?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I did Uh, but she has her own story about that.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And her perspective is well, let's, let's switch the
mic over and uh and uh, yeah,let's hear your story.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Well, he's uh accurate in a lot of the uh
information and the fact that Idid get jilted and the same day
that I found out that thatperson was getting married and
his first name, by the way, wasalso Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Oh, that's easy.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
And anyway, I kept putting him off, and putting him
off, and putting him off, andfinally I said, okay, let's just
get this over with.
So we went out on the date thedate uh was as he described, uh,
and as we were, he brought mehome, he walked me up to the
front door and he didn't evenattempt to kiss me and at the
(22:56):
time I wasn't sure if I wasrelieved or insulted.
Okay, and so he walked back tothe car and I went inside the
door.
And as soon as I walked insidethe door and closed it, I knew
he was going to be the one thatI married.
I did not like him at the time,but I knew he was going to be
the one that I would marry.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, I like the phrase.
I don't know if I was insultedor relieved.
You know I remember dating andas a guy even sometimes you're
like I don't know if this isgood or bad.
Right, exactly, so you justknew, like it wasn't love at
first sight, it was recognitionat first sight.
Then, Well in many ways, Ithink.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
God had a way of telling me that that was what
was going to happen.
I didn't recognize God'spresence in my life at that
point in time, but looking backon it, I really feel as though
God was nudging me and sayingyep, this is the one you're
going to marry.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Wow, and here you are .
So I don't want to get offtrack, but how many years have
you been married?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
then It'll be 53 in May.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah.
So that guy upstairs knew whathe was talking about, even if
you didn't agree with him at thetime.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
That's great Well, congratulations.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, thanks for sharing that part of the story.
Okay, I don't often get theperspective so this has been
kind of nice, all right.
So we've got her story.
She's here to keep you honest,joe oh, I know that yeah, so you
uh, so things are kind ofchugging along.
You're going to school, uh, youand nona are on the right path,
(24:37):
sort of um at least beginningright and then it sounds like,
and then you got your, yournotice I.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I got a draft notice on Halloween to report on, I
think in a week, so that wouldput it in November and went down
for my physical to Detroit andpassed that Wonderful.
And then the army provided mewith my first plane ride in an
(25:10):
old DC-3 to Louisville, kentucky, and then on a bus to Fort Knox
and spent my first week in theArmy taking a battery of tests,
and it was just so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Do I note a hint of sarcasm in your voice?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Is that what I'm hearing?
Just a little, yeah, okay, justwant to make sure.
And we stayed in the oldtwo-story barracks wooden
barracks from World War II, andone of the extracurricular stuff
(25:55):
that we had to do was and theyoffered anybody who was a
draftee if they wanted to enlistfor the extra year to be an
enlistee, they'd guarantee theschool of your choice.
So I said, where do I sign?
(26:17):
So I had to be discharged andthen enlist.
So that was a wonderful morning, thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Government Can't you just extend me for a year and
give me a school.
No, no, we got to throw thispaperwork.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's right.
So when I went in for to getall that done, the sergeant
there he says so what school doyou want to go to?
And I said I don't know.
You have all the informationbecause I hadn't shared it with
(26:54):
me yet.
And he gets out this list andhe's going well, these are all
the schools that you couldenlist in.
You know to go to after basictraining.
So I went down.
The only line that I went downwas how long the school was, and
they had this one that wascalled fixed siphony repair, 32
(27:16):
Foxtrot.
See, you get this stuff and younever forget it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
No, you don't.
It's in your head.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And it was 38 weeks and I and I said, boy, that's
almost a year, that's the one Iwant.
And he looks at it and he goesfix siphony repair.
Do you know what that is?
And I said, no, neither do I.
Well, what it was is, uh,secure voice communications
repair.
So I said, yeah, sounds good tome, you know.
(27:47):
Why not.
Yeah, it was 38 weeks.
That's more than a year.
So I did my two months at FortKnox, then through all the
wonderful conditioning and stufflike that.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Training your body and your mind.
Yes, all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, and so after, and the great thing was that I
learned really quick that Isigned up for every what do you
call it?
The?
That wasn't training, you know,hardcore you didn't have to do
(28:30):
calisthenics, but you had to goand learn about this and I
signed up for jump school andfixed pilot training and I
signed up for everything I couldbecause I got at least four
hours of comp time or trainingtime without having to do
calisthenics.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
It's a beautiful thing, Do you think, do you
think, though, that your timeplaying football helped you go
through basic training?
Were you, were you still kindof a big guy when you went
through basic.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, I was, but I got down.
The one good thing about basictraining was I got to my best
weight that I've ever been, andI was at the fittest.
Yeah.
There were several things thatthe Army gave me, and one of
them was I grew up.
That's a very important lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I wasn't the same person when I came back as I was
when I went in, yeah, but thatexperience, basic training, was
interesting because there wasonly, I would say, in my unit,
my company.
There was our platoon, I don'tknow what it is, but anyway,
(29:47):
most of them came from the south, alabama, georgia, louisiana,
and our sergeant was a northern,northern guy yeah our drill
sergeant and he got the uh sevenpeople that were not from the
South and he gave us all.
(30:09):
We were platoon leaders andacting sergeant.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
So there was a little bit of a benefit there, right?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, there was.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Probably because he could just understand what you
were saying mostly.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Probably, and he knew the caliber of education for
the south in those days right soso we got, we did get benefits
you got some leadership lessonstoo, I'm sure I yes, I did yeah
yep, because one of my, one ofthe uh guys in my unit, uh,
(30:43):
tried to go awol and we had togo down and search for him and
picked them up at the busstation before he got a chance
to go back to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
You know, interesting little side note when I went to
basic training in California inthe Navy and the Navy basic
training is right next to theMarine Corps basic training and
we had a guy who decided hedidn't want to be in the Navy
anymore so he hopped the fenceto go to the airport.
Didn't realize he was hoppingthe fence into Marine Corps
basic training and so and theykept him for like a week or two
(31:16):
and when he came back he was sohappy to be in the Navy.
Navy's the best thing that everhappened to him.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, so you, uh, you know you make it through basic
training and you've chosen thisfield, which I couldn't
pronounce if I tried yeah and uh.
So where did you stay rightthere at fort knox?
Should you go someplace else?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
no, they sent me to um, fort monmouth, new jersey.
Okay, uh, signal school.
And by the time I got out ofbasic training, they'd added
another equipment which made it48 weeks what a shame yeah, and
it's like wow, you know, that'smy year right right, yeah, so
you were in the signal core.
Though I was in the signal core,okay yep and uh got trained,
(31:59):
went to school uh, from 11 pm toto 7 am.
That was my school because itran 24 hours, oh my gosh, and
there were some interestingtimes there.
I learned how to smoke becauseI noticed that the guys that
(32:20):
smoked got breaks and I said Iwant a break.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
There's an incentive to start smoking.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So I did that.
So we had I graduated and oneother person and I were sent to
Berlin, Germany, to set thesystem up for the Berlin Brigade
.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay to set the system up for the Berlin Brigade
.
Okay, now, before we get toofar into that, did you come home
on leave and visit the lovelyNona at all?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Well, she came out to visit me in New Jersey.
Okay and we kind of gotconnected.
But you know, when you're goingto school and you get out at 7
am and it's summer, and you knowyou're just going, oh man, it's
am and it's summer and you'rejust going, oh man, it's a
bright sun and I was sleepy.
So I put my coat over my faceand took a siesta underneath a
(33:17):
tree where I was going to meether, and she never saw me.
Of course I can't blame her fornot lifting up the coat.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right right saw me.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Of course I can't blame her for not lifting up the
coat right right, uh, but theuh folks there were treated her
very kindly and got her set upto stay at the um what was it?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
the, the guest house oh, yeah, yeah, like I.
I know now they call it theArmy Lodge, right, yeah, yeah,
so okay, it'd be the guest house.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, and I came back .
You know, nobody showed up inmy conscious opinion, right?
And so the next thing I did wasgo back to my company, and
there's this Joe Spackman, yourgirlfriend is at the law.
Oh nice, oh okay company, andthere's this joe spackman, your
(34:10):
girlfriend is at the law, ohnice, oh okay, she did come.
Yeah, so we got together there,good good.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
So, and then you, uh, you fly off to germany to to
set, to set this equipment up.
Oh yes, so how was germany?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
germany was nice.
It was a lot better in vietnam,yeah, um, which I was very
happy for, uh, and after thetraining, or being trained for
this, um, it gave me thepotential to have a top secret
crypto clearance.
Um, and sa added on to thatspecial whatever, and that was
(34:50):
one step higher than thepresident has.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Oh, so you got to know things.
The president didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, supposedly.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, hypothetically speaking.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yes, yeah, it took five days to get all the
processing into Europe and thenon the duty train to Berlin
because at that time it was adivided country, right, and
Berlin was divided and gotthrough and picked up and taken
(35:23):
to the company and gets pickedup and taken to the company and
really at that point in my lifeI was not a Christian, I did
everything I could to circumventthe church and, lo and behold,
the company that I was in wasstationed in the former
(35:49):
Liebstandard Adolf Hitlerbarracks in Lichterfeld and I
thought I'd died and gone toheaven.
You, know, I was in the becauseI was into Nazism.
Right.
Neo-nazism and the occult, andI just thought, hey, this is
great.
(36:09):
So after that I got, when Ifinally my clearance finally
came, I got to go into the.
I did a lot of KP before that,right, because as you're waiting
to get your clearance to go tothe comm center, um, that's what
(36:30):
you do.
You do all the nasty stuff allthe stuff nobody else wants to
do, right, that's correct, butone of the advantages was that I
got to go up on the roof andclear the dummy uh mortar rounds
off the roof that the Sovietsand the East Germans shoot over,
just to let us know that theyhave us pinpointed.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Right and that they're still there.
Yes, I want to ask a quickquestion.
Yeah.
How was it that you foundyourself into neo-Nazism and the
occult?
Just curious, that's like youjust sort of said it like oh,
this is what normally happens,but no, so just kind of quickly,
how did you get involved inthat?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Well, when I was 15, I felt I had a call to go into
the ministry of the MethodistChurch and so I went and talked
to my pastor at that time and hesaid, after he stopped laughing
, he said no, I don't think so.
I think you misheard thatbecause the ministry is a
serious path of work and you'renot serious enough to do that,
(37:40):
maybe you should go into acting.
So I figured, if that's what hethought, then this is not the
place I want to be, and I justturned and rejected God at that
point in time, all right.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, I think he missed an opportunity.
To mentor a young man is whathe did.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, it's a great lesson though.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Oh yeah, right, even though it's kind of a negative
lesson, a great lesson to learn,yeah yeah, and I started
collecting uh literature on theoccult satanism, neo-nazism and
on all that stuff, because itjust interested me right um, and
actually it didn't change untilI got out of the Army and got
(38:27):
reconnected to her and thisyoung lady here she says why
don't you go to church with me?
And that's the first time I'dbeen in church since I got out
of left home so to speak, okay.
Because my parents never let meget out of going to church on
sunday right, good for good forthem, though.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Right, yeah, that's right all right, so we'll hold
that thought, we'll go, we'll goback to germany now.
Okay, I just wanted to kind ofget some background on that, uh,
just really for the audienceand for anyone who listens to
this later on in life, like Ididn't want to just breeze past
it.
So sure, yeah, so you're thereand you're kind of in the
homeland, basically.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And you're clearing the dummy rounds off the roof.
Yeah, that doesn't really soundlike a lot of fun to me, but I
guess it could be.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It was an awakening for me, because you know, you
(39:48):
know right off the bat that,because the mystique of Berlin
Brigade is that if a shootingwar heats up, heats up, the best
thing that could happen wouldbe that they'd, you know, the
East Germans and theussianswould, uh, erect signs all over
the place.
you're now prisoners of war, youknow, and without ever having
to close anything down right um,but um, it gave me a a sense
that, uh, that was true and uh,I have lots of stories about
being buzzed by bigs duringcrisis times and and things like
(40:26):
that.
And and to my job of fixingbasically carrying the daily
credit card or credit cards codecards up to the general's
office to be changed daily.
(40:46):
I had to also go to all theother spy agencies that had the
secure voice system that we'dset up and I didn't have to
change their cards, but I had torepair the equipment, yeah.
I didn't have to change theircards.
But I had to repair theequipment.
(41:07):
That's why I had the clearanceto get me into every spy agency.
There were 35.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Wow, that's a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh yeah, fortunately there were two of us.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Right, so you could split that up.
Yeah Well, it sounds like areally interesting job.
But also, if you think aboutthe time right, you're
potentially like front line toWorld War III if it were to
break out right now.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, one of the incidents that
I had, the infantry provided theguards to our comm center,
which was down in the basementof the building that we were in,
and they would change when wehad an alert and the MPs would
come and guard it.
And one day I was just shootingthe breeze with one of the MPs
(41:57):
and I said I've noticed this,why are you?
Why change the guard?
And he says well, it's likethis.
He says we're trained to makesure that you, if shooting war
starts and there's alert status.
He says we're here to make surethat you destroy all your
(42:19):
equipment if need be, and thenget you to the Grunewald where
to hold out for two weeks.
I always thought that was funny, but we're 110 miles behind
enemy lines and we're going tohold out for two weeks.
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Who came up with that ?
Probably someone who didn'thave a clearance.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
And he says to me he says well, well, if we can't get
you there, then our job is toshoot you so that you don't fall
into enemy hands.
And I said who is my enemy here?
right, yeah, who's the realenemy, wow so that was another
awakening, yeah, and I got a lotof incidents that happened
(43:10):
during that time.
It was very, very enlighteningfor me, but it was also
challenging because it shook myworldview, if you will, and
about how things run, if you'redoing what you need to do and I
(43:31):
haven't lost that yet yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can learn,
especially when you're in asituation like that.
It's like a, it's like you'reat war but you're not at war and
you just don't know what'sgoing to happen on a day-to-day
basis.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Really, Right and and the silliness and the inaneness
of the military.
Sometimes, Because I wascarrying coated material, I was
authorized to carry a weapon andthey gave me a .45 automatic, a
Colt .45 automatic, but theydidn't give me any bullets.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
You're not even Barney fife at that point and
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
What am I supposed to do with this gun?
Sure, I don't know, but I foundout.
I had a a very good opportunityto test the theory.
Um, when I was in the general'soffice I neglected to was in
the general's office.
I neglected to lock thegeneral's front door and so I
(44:31):
was in there and I had the safeopen and I was putting the cards
in and the cleaning woman camein.
She was German, to clean theoffice and my instinct was to
pull my weapon and point it ather and say halt, you know you
can't come in here.
And she saw that, point it ather and say halt, you know
you're right, you can't come inhere.
And she saw that gun pointingat her and she buckled and you
know, mop and everything elsewent falling all over the place.
(44:54):
She ran out.
I went over, locked the door,continued until I was done and
came out, and then I was facedwith 45 by the by Right.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
They want to know what you were doing right.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
That's right, that's right, yeah.
And so he was a sergeant and hewas going to just he just read
me the riot act, oh, it was justwonderful.
And I said you know, I wentthrough what I'd been trained to
do.
You are delaying a courier withsecure materials and I just
(45:31):
call the EO emergency operationsofficer, and he'll verify my
presence here.
Well, he didn't do that.
He called the duty officer, theregular duty officer, his duty
officer.
(45:51):
So then they were going to gangup on me here.
Right.
And he was telling me you'regoing to go to Leavenworth.
Oh okay, I just calmly sat downand got my arms across
everything and he had alreadytaken my unloaded weapon yeah,
wouldn't want you hurtingyourself with that, that's right
and so the uh officer of theday, um called the eo officer
(46:19):
and the eo officer read him theriot act and and the next thing,
I know that the uh he calls thesergeant and the sergeant is
sitting there and he says youcan go.
Thank you very much have a niceday.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Can I have my gun back?
Yes, yeah yeah wow.
So yeah, I mean that's.
That's interesting, like whenpeople don't understand what the
protocol is, they can, theythink they're, but they can get
themselves in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, yes.
So how long were you in Germanythen?
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I was there for 18 months.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Okay, all right, and then that was sort of your whole
enlistment, right?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Pretty much yeah, because with the year and in New
Jersey and two or three monthsin basic training and that was
it, yeah, I got.
I think I got out a month earlyokay because, I got out on what
?
Yeah, december, all right homein time for Christmas very nice,
(47:19):
very nice.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
So you fly back home and you've got some it sounds
like some maturity and someinteresting training.
And also you learned a lotwhile you were there.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I did.
I learned a lot about myself.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah, yeah, so you come home.
Did you come right back toMichigan then?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Well, I stopped off to see the sergeant who lived in
Lebanon, ohio, just outsideCincinnati, and he put me up for
a couple days and then he droveme up to Michigan.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Okay, all right, so did you out.
Process then right back at FortKnox I flew into New York.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
And at I think it was Fort Franklin or there in the
harbor someplace.
Yeah, Was discharged.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Okay, all right.
So you go to Ohio for a coupledays and you come back home.
And what was it like cominghome?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
It was nice coming home.
I hadn't changed too much.
I mean, inside I didn't feellike I'd changed some, but I had
really, yeah, and you know, gotreconnected with Nona and that
was when she invited me to go tochurch with her, when I first
walked into the church with her.
(48:46):
That began the process of metransforming back into something
that's not on the dark side ofthe force, right.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Right, you're going to start using your, your powers
, for good at this point right.
Yes, yeah, so I want to.
I got to ask, though, before weget too deep into this, like
was she still slinging milk atQuality Dairy when you got back?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
No, okay.
Speaker 4 (49:13):
No, she was going through the nursing program,
weren't you?
No, I was doing that when wefirst met at.
Quality Dairy.
When you came back, I believe Iwas working either at St
Lawrence.
No, I wasn't working at StLawrence, I was working at Pepsi
when?
At Pepsi.
Oh yes, okay so she's workingat Pepsi when you get back, okay
(49:35):
.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
All right, you reconnected, you go to church,
so let's talk about that.
Okay, you didn't get hit bylightning.
That was a good thing, becausethat's correct, because I would
have been afraid of that walkinginto church after all that time
.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
But yeah, so you go to church.
She was teaching Sunday school.
Uh-huh Little kids, two andthree-year-olds, yeah, and you
know what?
It was?
Christ United Methodist Churchon Jolly Road, and when I walked
in the door, one of the firstpeople that met me was my
homeroom teacher from Sexton.
(50:09):
Oh.
And he welcomed me and heremembered me and he didn't
treat me like a student.
He treated me like any otherperson that would come into the
church.
Yeah, and then I met my algebrateacher and my chemistry
(50:31):
teacher and I'm going and theyall treated me like I was not
one of their students now, butthey remembered me Right, you
were an adult.
I was an adult.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
And this was what?
1971?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
70, 71, yeah, Okay, all right, so it sounds like a
good experience when you firstget oh yeah it was wonderful,
yeah, and then we, we gotserious in our relationship and
we got married in the church andat 1972 and in 74 we both
accepted christ and we became uh, we, we took over the senior
(51:14):
high youth group okay, all right, before we talk about this,
something that's going to be agood story before we talk about
that, talk to me about, likethat moment that you like
realized in your heart you knowwhat I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Like anyone who's anyone who's a christian, who,
um, may not have been achristian before.
This is a moment where yourealize this is for me.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, right, so talk a little bit about that well, um
, we had gone, gone to a laywitness mission.
It was what?
Four days, yeah, from Thursdaythrough Sunday, and we first
signed up to help out in thekitchen and that type of stuff,
(52:01):
but we also attended and thetestimonies of the folks were
very moving, very authentic.
And at the end, with the finalworship, they asked anybody who
(52:22):
was convicted or you knowwhatever, to come forward.
And I went, know whatever, um,to come forward, and I went
forward.
She went forward and we criedand and uh, that's that changed.
That was a life changing event.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Absolutely.
And for anyone listening whodoesn't know understand that
word convicted, um, that's likeum.
It's hard to describe, but it'slike that feeling in your heart
that that you know it's, it'sjust time to give your life over
to Christ, and that's when wetalk about conviction in the
church.
That's really what we'retalking about.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It's what John Wesley talked about in his conversion,
when he felt his heartstrangely warm.
Yes, that he could believe inGod and Christ for salvation.
Yes.
And it's an amazing feeling.
It became real.
Yeah, it became real.
It was the difference betweenknowing about God and knowing
(53:17):
God.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
And it's really the difference between a feeling and
an actual conversion.
Yes, right, because you canfeel something that makes you go
to the altar and convert, butit's the actual, like change in
your life that happens, not justsome feeling you got.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, so you both on the same day.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yes, wow, at the same event.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, that's.
That's pretty amazing, it is.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah, and after that I felt the call again from God
and I went and talked to mypastor then and he affirmed it,
and maybe that's the difference.
I had to go through thistraining process.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
So do you think so?
Earlier on?
This is interesting to me.
So earlier on I made kind ofthe the comment that guy missed
out on a chance to to uh mentora young, a young man but do you?
I mean, when you look back,it's kind of god's plan.
You had to go through all thatother stuff right and figure out
that this is what you needed inyour life, and then here you
(54:20):
are right right.
So it's a whole.
Everything happens for a reason, but we can, you know, when we
look back on it.
Yeah, it all seems to makesense.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, and I look back on it as a training ground for
what I was going to be doing inministry Didn't really.
When I was serving in Allegan,one of our youth group in the
Allegan there was dating a girlwho was all dressed in black and
had the kind of like the whitepancake stuff a goth, yeah, and
(55:03):
he brought her to church where Iwas preaching and as she was
going out, she said hi, I'mSatan.
And I looked at her and I thinkshe was just trying to get a
shocking response from me.
But I said, no, I've seen Satanand you're not him.
(55:23):
And that stopped her short.
And she says well, I'm Satan.
No, I said I've seen Satan andyou are not him, but you're
always welcome here.
And that made all thedifference in her life.
She transformed her life.
(55:43):
She didn't go to our church,right, but she ended up going to
a church that would accept herfor who she was at that point
and she turned her whole lifearound.
So, but if I hadn't had theexperience of black sabbath and
all that other junk, um, maybe Iwould have reacted a different
(56:04):
way right but because I had, Ihad that, then I had.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Well, it's meeting people where they're at right.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
I think sometimes we forget, like Jesus, ate with tax
collectors and prostitutes.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Oh, yes, he did.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
He didn't hang out at the club and hang out with all
the good folk.
He hung out with people thatneeded him to hang out with them
.
Right, and sometimes I think weforget that.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Right, and sometimes I think we forget that.
Yes, yeah, so you're movingalong.
You got married in 1972, right.
And now you're going to tell methat you both were like over a
high school group or somethingbefore.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I rudely interrupted you.
We were the youth group leadersat Christ Church.
Okay.
We've been also youth leadersin about every church we've been
into except the last one andthat type of stuff.
(57:03):
We had people coming fromalmost every high school okamas,
sexton, everett, you know yeahwaverly um don't forget eastern
joe.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
I wouldn't forget that.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Okay, I just want to make sure uh, and you know they
didn't get along because youknow they were from every high
school in the area Right, andthe rivalries kept, you know,
and there were a couple fromthere was one from Everett and
one from Okemos Okemos, yes, andwe took the youth group 10 of
(57:40):
them to Frakes, kentucky, on awork and encounter mission and
the work part of it was that wehelped the community down there
with various tasks.
One of them was canning,because we went down in the fall
(58:02):
Summer yeah, you know canningand and painting and um, because
I was, they put me to workdriving truck and you know
things like that rounding upcattle you know whatever, just
sort of whatever needed to bedone.
It sounds like yeah and we wewere there with uh and doing
(58:26):
this with a youth group fromFlorida and we'd never met until
we got to Frakes and boy, thekids learned a lot about us and
we learned a lot about them.
But these two girls, one fromEverett and one from Okemos,
they didn't get along anytimeduring youth group and they were
(58:51):
put to a four day task ofpainting this little block
storage shed.
They had to work out theirdifferences and they did, and
they came back fast friends andthey still are, and you know,
(59:11):
that's amazing.
And over the years, we haveencountered—it's a good
word—encountered several of ourformer youth group people that
are still active in the church,and what that helps me, and both
of us think, is we made animpact, a positive impact, on
(59:37):
these people.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, the seed you planted grew right.
Yeah, not 100%, but a lot, yeahFor sure.
So when you left the military,you essentially went right into
ministry.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
Then no, okay um, we didn't know what god had in mind
.
We just knew that we wanted todedicate our service yeah uh,
for god's good okay and so wewere thinking about you know, we
we were thinking about goinginto missionary work, but it was
(01:00:11):
pretty definite that God wantedme to be a United Methodist
pastor and he wanted me to beordained.
Okay.
So we went to seminary and thisis a couple years after because
I was involved in the LakeLansing dredging project.
I was working at an engineeringfirm at the time and I worked my
(01:00:35):
way up from draftsman toinspector and then construction
inspector.
And that's where my boss sentme was to the Lake Lansing
dredging project, Cause it hadnever been done on that scale.
And I he told me what I neededto look for and I looked for
(01:00:56):
that and did all the things andhey, I got to drive a pickup
truck.
That's the only time I've everdriven a pickup truck.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Can't go wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I know and I had access to a, a pont pontoon boat
.
Never had a pontoon boat beforeeither, so everything's looking
good for you, joe, oh yeah yeah, so I was out there and for
about five years oh while theydredged yeah, that was a huge
project it was and it'll neverbe done again.
No, it's too expensive and toomuch controversy.
(01:01:27):
Yeah, but I learned a lot andthen after that my first job
after the military was at anarchitectural firm where I
worked my way up from office boyand gopher to a draftsman.
I was a plumbing draftsmanthere and then one of the
(01:01:48):
engineers left to go to SnellEnvironmental Group and they
needed another draftsman.
So he suggested that I call thecompany.
And called the company andinterviewed and got the job and
had another close group offriends yeah we hung out with
(01:02:10):
you know um, we almost gotkicked out of uh, clara's yes
clara's.
Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I remember clara's, yeah, downtown there and we?
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
we weren't drinking uh-huh we were just boisterously
involved in having fun, youknow.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Somebody thought you were drinking must be, yes, I
think so.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Because we were making too much noise.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
So how long were you there then, at the architectural
firm?
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
The architectural firm was only a couple years, I
got laid off and I was only offfor a month or so when I got a
call from Bob Newman aboutapplying at Snell Environmental
Group and Snell had bought thebuilding.
(01:02:57):
That was the church I grew upin.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Seymour Avenue, right in the corner of Saginaw and
Seymour.
Yeah, I know exactly whatyou're talking about, so I could
tell them a lot about thebuilding they were in.
Oh, I'll bet, because I knewevery nook and cranny of that
place.
Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
You knew all the hiding places?
Yeah, so did you go to I justwant to kind of put the timeline
together so did you go toseminary while you were doing
all of this, or you went toseminary after?
After, while you were doing allof this, or you went to
seminary after after, soseminary was like a second
career for you oh, yes, so howlong?
So how long were you at snell?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
I was there for about what?
Five, six years?
Okay, well at least six orseven.
Yeah, it could be.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, because I was a drafts person for two or three
years until they got thecontract for the lake dredging
project yeah and then I uh, thenI got connected with that okay,
so you're doing that for fiveyears, right, and then uh and I
was.
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
I had to finish up my undergraduate degree.
Okay, and I applied at michiganstate and they did not have any
religious studies there, right?
So I ended up going to SpringHarbor for my year and a half or
two years to get myundergraduate degree.
Okay, because I finished up mytwo-year degree from LCC yes, in
(01:04:22):
general education.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
I'd say I want to ask you a question about LCC.
Yeah, general education.
Yes, I want to ask you aquestion about LCC.
Yeah, so I went to LCC right outof high school and I got
terrible grades so I joined themilitary.
So, fast forward, I had to getmy undergrad when I went to
officer candidate school andthis was probably close to 30
(01:04:44):
years after I had gone to LCC.
But I was going back to LCC towork through their program and I
, even though it was 30 yearsago, they put me on academic
probation based on my gradesfrom years ago.
So I just wondered if they Iguess your grades were good
enough to be there but not goodenough to stay out of the
military Right, Whereas mygrades were horrible, but anyway
(01:05:05):
.
Yeah, so they held that againstme.
Did they do that to?
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
you?
Yes, they did.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Yeah, I was on probation until I got it up
above 2.
Okay yeah, I think I graduatedwith maybe a 2.8, but I was a
lot better student Right andthat's how low my grades got.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
You learned a few things right I did yeah so you,
uh, you get your undergrad andthen, um, at what point did you
go to seminary then?
What year would that have been?
Was?
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
that 1983 we went because I graduated in 87 yeah,
yeah, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Okay, so where'd you go to seminary?
Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
In Dayton, ohio, at United Theological Seminary.
Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Okay, and that was four years long then for you.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
It was well.
It was three years of classroom, but I took a year off to go to
England for a year.
Okay.
To be the student pastor atWesley's Chapel in London.
Oh how cool.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
That must have been a great experience.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Oh, it was.
Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
We learned more about Wesley and Methodism than we
ever thought we'd ever learn,even the backdoor stories.
Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Right right, Are they affiliated with the Wesleyan
College down in Virginia?
Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Well, wesleyan faith came out of that.
Methodism got started here inthe colonies in 1784 at the
Christmas conference inBaltimore, ohio, baltimore,
maryland yeah, not Baltimore.
Baltimore.
Maryland, baltimore, maryland,baltimore yeah, not Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Baltimore, maryland, baltimore, maryland.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Gotcha Yep and I had relatives that attended that.
Okay.
From Pennsylvania, becausethat's where my family's from.
Uh-huh.
And so I learned that and I'vehad a—I come from a line of
(01:07:13):
Methodists.
My one great great relative,great, great great relative in
the 1800s was a lay preacher forthe Methodist circuit in
Pennsylvania, centralPennsylvania, and I have his
(01:07:34):
certificate of of that.
He can do that.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, that's a nice piece of history for your family
.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
It is.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Yeah, oh, interesting , fun fact I was baptized at the
United Methodist Church onPennsylvania Avenue.
Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Yeah, it's not a Methodist church anymore, it's
something else.
But yeah, it was a Methodistchurch when I was a kid, calvary
.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
Yeah, sycamore Creek.
Yeah, it's Sycamore Creek now.
Yeah, but it was, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Didn't know that.
Didn't know that.
But yeah, it was the UnitedMethodist Church when I was a
kid.
So you go to England, you hangout there for a year.
Yep, learn a lot of great stuff, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Yes, I found out about a lot of religions because
one of the duties of thestudent pastor because they had
had several student pastors wewere the first to go.
I was the oldest to go, chosento go there's one a year and I
(01:08:35):
was the only married one to go.
And it was good that she wentalong because she helped set up
the computer system at Wesley'sChapel and she has that skill
because I don't.
And I found out that part of mytask was not only to assist the
(01:08:58):
pastor the head pastor on Sundaymornings but also do the
Thursday midweek service at noonfor the business district,
because City Road is in themiddle of the mile square of
central London and it'sbasically office buildings.
(01:09:20):
So we'd open up the church fortours of Methodists and anybody
else who wanted to come by.
But also we had a service everyweek and that was my job of
running that and then also beingthe free church chaplain at the
(01:09:41):
City of London Polytechnic andthe City University in
Clerkenwell and right across thestreet from the Tower of London
.
And as part of that my dutieswere to provide pastoral care
and services, if you will, toanybody who wasn't Anglican
(01:10:04):
Church of England or RomanCatholic anybody who wasn't
Anglican Church of England orRoman Catholic, so that included
Druids, baptists, everybodyelse that had Muslims, buddhists
, wow.
So I learned a lot about a lotof that stuff and the religions
just by osmosis.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Right.
What a great experience to haveunder your belt.
Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Oh, yeah, so when you come back.
Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
So how did that work?
You were two years in Ohio andthen a year.
Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
The first two years I was in Ohio attending classes
going through the regularseminary.
Third year we were in Londonand the fourth year then I came
back to my senior year to get mydegree.
Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Okay, all right, and then so in 1987, it sounds like
you got your degree.
Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Where'd you go from there?
Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Then I began to be a circuit pastor.
Okay.
From the churches and a circuitpastor from the churches.
Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
And a circuit pastor means you didn't have like one
church right.
Well that's very true.
Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
When I was going to Spring Arbor College to get my
undergraduate degree, I was astudent pastor at Mulliken,
which was quarter time, and whenI went to seminary, usually, in
(01:11:36):
the scheme of things, in theMethodist church you don't go
back to any place.
You've been for quite some time.
So when I got my firstappointment they had made that
they had made Mulliken and Cebua center out by uh uh, out West
side of you know, by Grand Ledge, sort of beyond there oh you're
(01:12:00):
fine and uh yeah, and she isfrom Sunfield, so that was like
going home for her and herparents became members of the
church and that's where theysent me for my first four years.
Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Then we went to three churches north of St John's and
then to one church in Alleganand one church in Pawpaw, and
then I retired and then I spent11 years at Delta Mills in
Northwest Lansing.
Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
Okay, familiar with that area too.
Yeah, so even though you'reretired, you weren't really
retired, no, yeah, now I'mretired.
Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Yeah, so you're not doing any of that now, yes, I am
, I'm teaching sunday school, ofcourse you just can't get away
like yeah, I retired from twodifferent jobs and I still do
this, so yeah yeah, I get itlike I think, if I didn't do
something I'd really yeah, yeah,and god's god still blesses me
with the skills he's, he's,taught me yeah and so I use them
(01:13:07):
yeah well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Now a question I have is I noticed that we didn't
talk about still blesses me withthe skills he's taught me, yeah
, and so I use them.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Now a question I have is Inoticed that we didn't talk
about children and I have to askyou did you have kids, or you
were just raising everybodyelse's kids?
Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Yes, we raised everybody else's kids.
We were not blessed withchildren?
Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Yeah, but it wasn't for lack of trying, yeah Well
you know, got to do what you gotto do there, joe, yeah, so yeah
, so you're retired, but you'restill teaching Sunday school,
right, we're doing pastoral careOkay.
Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Helping out with the pastoral care.
Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, so it sounds like it's a very I mean, it
sounds very fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
It is yeah, and it's a lot easier to do.
I don't have to worry about allthe paperwork or anything like
that, Right right.
Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
It's like being a reserve cop, right, Like you get
to do the good parts but youdon't have to worry about all
the other stuff yes.
Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.
So I mean, you've lived a fulllife and it's been interesting
to hear where you started andwhere you're at now.
So I do want to ask.
I have two questions.
The first one is is thereanything that we didn't talk
(01:14:15):
about that you would like tomake sure that we do talk about?
Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Oh yeah, I'm still involved with the folks that I
met in the military from Berlinand we meet every two years
anywhere in the country.
Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
We haven't been to Texas yet, but we've been to New
Hampshire.
We have one couple that livesin Muskegon, so we've been here,
they've come to our house andthings like that.
But we've also been Branson,missouri, ohio, ohio, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
When's the next one?
Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
This coming September we're going to York,
pennsylvania, that area.
Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Oh nice.
Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
And it'll be the first time for the guy that
lives there.
Uh huh.
Um, he's never been able to tomake any of them, so.
Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Isn't it really interesting to, to reconnect
with your army buddies, yourmilitary friends, Because for me
it always seems like, hey, wejust pick up where we left off.
Nothing really changes.
Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Right, and she was not a part of it because, I
wasn't married and the otherswere so far.
So, which was interesting, Ihung out with all these married
people.
Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
Right Probably kept you on the straight and narrow,
maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I think that was planned as well.
Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
Yeah, well, that's good that you stay connected.
Um, you know, I find thatpeople either do or they don't,
you know, but it's, it's reallygood.
Um, I think that's like it'spart of your history, right?
Yeah, and we're very goodfriends still with folks that I
worked with at snellenvironmental okay um, you know,
except for some losses we'vehad Right, but that happens in
life.
Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
Yeah, especially as we get older, right.
Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
I turned 60 today, so yeah, well, congratulations.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Happy birthday.
Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
Another time around the sun.
I guess I got.
So, that's good, so yeah, so,really, the only.
I have one final question toask you, and that is as people
listen to this story and hearabout your life, what message
would you have for them?
Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
You're never too bad, lost or not grown up enough to
change.
Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
Great message and I want to say thank you to both of
you for taking time out of yourday to be here with us, and I
look forward to talking with youagain.
Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Good morning.
Today is April 7th, 2025.
We're talking with Joe Spackman, who served in the United
States Army.
So good morning, joe.
Good morning, it's great to seeyou here.
Nice to be here, yes, and we'reglad that you made it, even
though I gave you the wrongaddress.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
No, you gave me the right address.
It's just Miss Google gave memisdirection.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah well that's Google for you, right?
Well, we'll start out realsimple.
When and where were you born?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was born in Norfolk .
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Virginia in 1948, January of 1948.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, and did you live in Norfolk most of your
life or did you move around?
How'd that work out?
No, actually, my father was abaker a civilian baker for the
naval base and he got a joboffer in Michigan when I was
about three years old atSchaefer Baking Company.
By the time he got here withthe family, that job had been
(01:01):
filled, so he got another job onWest Saginaw at Goss Baking
Company in Lansing.
So that's how we got here toLansing and I've been here ever
since.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Wow, I remember the old Schaefer Bread place.
My uncle lived over there andwhen I would stay with him you'd
wake up in the morning and justsmell that fresh bread.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's pretty amazing .
It is yeah.
So whereabouts in Lansing didyou live.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I grew up.
The first house we lived in wason Cavanaugh Road, out by
Dunkel.
Then we moved.
When I was about five or six wemoved into Lansing on Pine
Street, went to Walnut StreetSchool, walked then to West
(01:51):
Junior, walked and went toSexton, graduated from Sexton in
1966 and walked there too untilI got my brother's car and got
to drive to school.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Oh, that's exciting.
Yeah, so you had a brother.
Did you have any other siblings?
No, okay, there's one brother.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
He's a retired bird colonel from the Army.
Oh all right, Engineers.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, Well, talk to me a little bit about what it
was like growing up.
Now I know your dad was a baker.
What did your mom do?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
She was a housemaker, and she did that until my
father um, until all both of uskids were out of the house, uh.
And then she got a job at napsokay and she worked in the linen
department I love that napstore by.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, I'm glad that they've kept it.
Yeah.
It's a beautiful place.
It is.
Yeah, so you know, if I were toask you, you know what is like
when you think about your mom,what is a memory that you have
of her.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh, I got lots of memories.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
She was how can I say this?
She was a typical middle,middle-class American woman, uh,
raising a family in Lansing.
She didn't work.
She never drove um, cause dadhad the car and he we used it to
(03:22):
go to work and brought themoney home, and that was fine.
When she got her own job, shealways rode the bus or walked to
work or one of us kids pickedher up.
So she was actually.
She was quite well known bysome folks.
(03:44):
When I was in the military, partof my job was to be a secure
voice communications specialistand when I got that job and got
sent to Berlin first and I hadto do secure voice checks around
(04:12):
the world just to check thesystem, and I once called the
National Guard headquarters hereon Washington Avenue and the
person who answered was thecolonel at the time and he
didn't know how to go secure andso I tried to talk him through
it and he says well, what buttondo I have to push?
(04:33):
And I said there should be alittle white thing on the phone
cradle.
Well, I don't have one of those.
Well, thanks.
He says, is there anything Ican do?
I said yes, my mother just youknow.
He says is there anything I cando?
I said yes, my mother works atNAPS.
Oh, I've been to NAPS lots oftimes.
And he says I can stop by thereand tell her that.
(04:55):
You said hi.
And I said okay.
So he did go up and my motherwrote to me and said this
gentleman came up and he saidyou had called him and that I
was fine.
So that was a pretty neat idea.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh yeah, so your mom would get random visits once in
a while.
Is that how that worked?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Thanks to you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, great.
So what about your dad?
What are some of your memoriesabout your dad?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Well, my dad played Santaus around that time of year
and he would go to naps andrent the costumes that they had
and I kind of picked up thatfamily business.
But we never had to to have the.
(05:43):
We had these moments of when hewe never lack for bread.
I can tell you that I believeit.
But one of the things that theyalways gave him around I can't
remember what holiday, but theyalways gave him lobsters for
(06:04):
some reason, oh, I can'tremember what holiday, but they
always gave him lobsters forsome reason, oh, and he would
bring them home and my motherwould have to put them in the
scalding hot water and thingslike that, uh-huh, but he always
kept them in the basement andour house on Pine Street had a
Michigan basement and he'dalways take them down there
(06:25):
because she didn't like to clean.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And so he would go down there and he'd take us kids
down there and look at them.
You want to put your hands inthe claws.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
No, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I learned that really quick.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's a lesson you only have to learn once, isn't
it?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Wow, so you and your brother?
Is your brother older oryounger?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Older, six years older.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Oh, okay, so it wasn't like you guys hung out
together as kids.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I do have a funny story about that.
Oh, I'd love to hear it.
It was wintertime because itwas just three blocks away.
Went to Seymour Avenue,methodist Church, german
Methodist Church, and one day hewas coming.
(07:17):
We had a big social event atthe church and he brought his
girlfriend home.
And, of course, at the churchand he brought his girlfriend
home and of course he wasdriving the car and I got out
and he was in the house with herand I hid in the back seat and
hunkered down and they both gotin the car and as I peeked up
(07:40):
over the back seat, he waskissing her and I thought that
was the funniest thing in theworld, because I was only like
11 or 12, right, and I juststarted laughing.
And the next thing I know, I getblows on the head, you know and
the door opens and he pushes meout, but I just I never stopped
laughing.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was just hilarious in my Well, speaking as a
younger brother, right, that'sthe kind of fun that you would
have.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
So let's talk a little bitabout school.
You kind of walk through thedifferent schools that you went
to and it's interesting becauseI think of all those schools,
sexton's the only one stillstanding.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That's correct.
Well, they're standing, butthey're no longer schools,
unlike one's still standing,that's correct well, well,
they're standing, but they're nolonger schools.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, unlikeeastern, which is gone now.
Yes, but that's a story foranother time.
Yeah, yes, for sure.
So what was school like for you?
It was hard, as I kindergarten.
I kindergarten was tough for mebecause I was a literal thinker
(08:44):
and my parents brought me upright, and so when we played,
had playtime, and one of thegirls asked me to play house or
whatever it was, and so I wasgetting ready to leave the house
(09:07):
and I gave her a kiss and thatwas a bad thing to do.
Even back then it wasn't, ohyeah.
So that was my first kiss andprobably my only one until a
long time after that.
Right, but I didn't know reallyhow to read until I got to
second grade and I had a reallygood teacher.
(09:29):
Her name is and I'll neverforget her name Mrs Wellman, and
she taught me how to read andgave me a book that I was really
interested in.
So kudos to her, wherever shemay be, because she was a gem,
yeah, and got me reading, andthat's got me reading all the
(09:52):
time now uh-huh, was that like a?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I have to think that was like a life changing moment,
like when you're able to read.
That changes the whole game forschool especially.
Yes, because you have to beable to read to do math.
You have to be able to read todo math.
You have to be able to read todo a lot of things.
Right, you do yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yes.
And then in third grade I havemany stories about it I almost
got kicked out of class forfighting.
But the teacher again, mrsSharp.
I remember these teachers,three teachers in grade school
very well.
Mrs Sharp just calmly took meout in the hallway and she says
(10:32):
you know, I don't think yourparents would be appreciative of
what you're doing and let's tryto get along with people a
little bit better.
And I said okay, and she saysI'm not going to send you to the
principal's office or anything,we're just going to try this
again.
But remember, this is your oneand only strike.
(10:54):
And.
I took that to heart, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So who's the third teacher?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Third teacher was Mrs Teddy.
Okay, she was my sixth gradeteacher and it was—she taught us
to sing songs and it didn'tmatter whether they were
religious or secular, it didn'tmatter at all.
She was just a pleasant personand I'll always remember she had
(11:24):
gotten her thumbs crushed whenshe was little and there was
thumbs just didn't do anything,they were just stuck out like
that and um.
But she was very, very open andwelcoming and it also when we
go out to recess, uh, one of thethings that uh was take me to
(11:50):
the nurse.
After we were playing softballand I was catcher and this
pitcher pitched the ball andthis sadistic batter hit the
ball directly between us, thepitcher and me, and we ran
together and hit heads and wewere both knocked out.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Oh, my gosh, just like the cartoons.
Yes, did you see little birdsor stars or anything?
I?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
was just flat out gone.
Yeah stars or anything.
I was just flat out gone, yeah,and the next thing I remember
is waking up with the nurse inthe nurse's office.
So somehow miss, miss teddy gotme into there, and the other
person too, because he wasknocked out.
Yeah so, and I learned how toduck at that time yeah, I'll bet
(12:42):
.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'll bet.
So this is a.
This is a point in time too,where there wasn't middle school
.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You had right, you went to sixth grade and you went
to junior high yes, junior highat west junior yeah, so tell me
a little about west junior well, that was my first fight that I
actually got into and that wasa person who sat behind me in
(13:08):
homeroom.
That was the first experienceof homeroom, but our teacher
didn't very often come inbecause he was also the
basketball coach and that typeof stuff.
So, he spent a lot of time inthe gym and he just figured we'd
be okay on our own.
And this kid behind me I wasprobably at that time one of the
(13:33):
biggest kids in school becauseI was bulked up, not muscular,
but just fat.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You and me both, brother, you and me both.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And he kept on flicking my ear.
He'd just bing, and me both.
And he kept on flicking my ear,you know, just bing.
And finally I just got so tiredof that that I turned around
and I said don't ever do thatagain.
And he says what are you goingto do?
So we went into the cloakroomand we started fighting and I've
never been a good boxer and sohe landed quite quite a few
(14:04):
punches.
But once I got a hold of him, Ijust got him in a headlock and
started ramming his head intothe wall and I didn't stop until
three kids got me off of himand he never touched me again.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I'll bet.
I'll bet everyone else thoughttwice about yeah too right yes
yeah, so all through, kind ofthrough that, how was junior
high school for you then?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
it was fine.
I was looking forward to beingin ninth grade because the ninth
graders had a football team andI always wanted to play
football.
So when I got into ninth gradeI tried out for the football
team and I made the team becauseI tackled the coach and because
(14:54):
I could tackle the coach, hesent me in to get my uniform and
that's how I started myfootball career.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, that could have gone one of two ways right, yes
, it could.
Oh my goodness, so whatposition did you play?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I played tackle, offensive tackle.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Oh wow, all right, so that was the start of your
football career.
Yes, and then I'm assuming yougo on to high school, did you
continue?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
to play.
I did, yeah, I played for wellfor one year with Russ Maples
and then two years with Majeski,and yep, that's what I did JV
first and then varsity in mysenior year.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and so did Sexton and Eastern still share a
field at that time.
Yes, Okay, because that wasalways fun and it seemed like we
when I was in school it seemedlike we always played Sexton for
our homecoming, which was kindof a nightmare, Cause that's a
pretty big rivalry.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, it is.
It always was a lot more sothan Everett.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean Everett was just kind of there, right.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, I remember those days, at least for me.
So apparently, uh, even evenback in the 60s, it was kind of
the same thing oh, yes, yes soyou graduated high school in 66.
You said correct, okay, well,let's talk about what happens.
Like you, you get throughschool, you're all set, you
graduate.
And then what?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
then it came, uh lcc uh-huh and I've got a student
deferment because there was thedraft.
Then Vietnam was going on and Ifound I got.
Another learning lesson wasthat the government watches your
grade point average and when mygrade point I was not a serious
(16:39):
student.
I met Nona there, but Right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
You were serious about Nona, just not about
school.
Right, I got you.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And she has a different story.
However, but I found out thatonce my grade point fell below
two points, I got my draftnotice on Halloween of 1967,
which told me to report forinduction, and I said, oh
(17:10):
thrilling.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, maybe I should have studied a little more.
That darn Nona she got me introuble.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It wasn't just her, I tell you.
It was the group I hung outwith.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, yeah, they weren't serious students either.
I take it no, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
But my one claim to fame is that I was one of the
founding members of the LCCMarching Kazoo Band.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Really yeah, and I'm familiar with that.
That thing's still going ontoday, isn't it, is it?
I don't know.
Yeah, well, I remember in highschool, it was still a thing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know aboutnow.
I went to lcc myself for alittle while.
So, yeah, so founding member.
Yeah, did you guys like uhmarch at uh at events, or was
just something you just did?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
well, you know, at that time we didn't really have
teams.
I mean, you know, it was just asmall thing as just one
building and we didn't have anyathletic facility or anything.
So we just hung around andmarched around with our kazoos
around the hallways or you knowwhatever.
And that was about it.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's quite a way to not attract attention.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yes, yes, it is.
Wow, that's pretty amazing.
That was about it.
That's quite a way to notattract attention.
Yes, yes, yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Wow, that's pretty amazing.
So you met Nona there.
Let's talk about that a littlebit.
So how'd that go?
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well, my story is that better because she also
worked at the corner qualitydairy, okay, and that's where I
really got to know her Uh-huh.
But I wanted to date herbecause I thought she was the
most beautiful woman that I'dever seen.
And I never had dates duringhigh school because I was one of
(19:05):
those kids that just was anoutcast and I lorded over that
you know, and I was a bully inmy neighborhood, you know.
So I had I had issues you hadstuff to work on.
Yeah, that's right, joe and andso when I wasn't terrorizing the
neighbors and I get, my mothersent me up for a lot of milk
(19:31):
during those days years.
And so I got to know her and Ifinally got the courage up to
ask her out for a date.
And it was the same day that,uh, she came into work and she
was crying oh, and uh, I, I.
(19:51):
But I went ahead with it and Iasked her out for a date and, um
, she didn't really want to goout because what had happened
was the the guy she was, the hadhappened, was the the guy she
was, the the other guy she wasdating.
Um, she wasn't dating me, but,uh, the other guy had told her
that he was getting married thatweek, and not to her oh my gosh
(20:14):
, yeah, wow so she got jiltedand I happened to be.
That was the day that I gotenough courage to ask her out.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Not a good time no, and thankfully not, because
you'd have been the rebound guyand nobody wants to be the
rebound guy right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, I wouldn't have minded, Right, right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh yeah, that's true.
I want to ask this is kind of aweird question, but was it the
Quality Dairy there on Cedar?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
No, it's the Quality Dairy on the corner of Pine
Street and Saginaw.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, very familiar.
I used to work at ConsumersEnergy.
So yeah, right down.
Okay, I was just trying to geta visual of where exactly this
was at.
So yeah, little quality dairiesin all these neighborhoods.
It was kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, they're still there too.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
They definitely are still selling milk.
Definitely, but yeah, so shegot jilted.
You asked her out.
Not a good time.
What happens next?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, I kept on asking her.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You're persistent.
I'm persistent.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yep.
And finally she decided to goout with me because she just
wanted to get it over with.
And so we went out and ourfirst date was memorable.
I took her to the movies at theGladmer Theater and we saw A
(21:32):
man for All Seasons.
And then there was a tornadoalert on that night, and so we
went out and chased tornadoes.
Oh, and we almost found oneover Grossbeck.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
What year would this have been?
That was what 1967 okay allright, yeah, yeah, some wild
times here.
So so you're out chasing.
So now you're like, oh well,maybe this is going to work out.
So did you get that second date?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I did Uh, but she has her own story about that.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And her perspective is well, let's, let's switch the
mic over and uh and uh, yeah,let's hear your story.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Well, he's uh accurate in a lot of the uh
information and the fact that Idid get jilted and the same day
that I found out that thatperson was getting married and
his first name, by the way, wasalso Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Oh, that's easy.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
And anyway, I kept putting him off, and putting him
off, and putting him off, andfinally I said, okay, let's just
get this over with.
So we went out on the date thedate uh was as he described, uh,
and as we were, he brought mehome, he walked me up to the
front door and he didn't evenattempt to kiss me and at the
(22:56):
time I wasn't sure if I wasrelieved or insulted.
Okay, and so he walked back tothe car and I went inside the
door.
And as soon as I walked insidethe door and closed it, I knew
he was going to be the one thatI married.
I did not like him at the time,but I knew he was going to be
the one that I would marry.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, I like the phrase.
I don't know if I was insultedor relieved.
You know I remember dating andas a guy even sometimes you're
like I don't know if this isgood or bad.
Right, exactly, so you justknew, like it wasn't love at
first sight, it was recognitionat first sight.
Then, Well in many ways, Ithink.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
God had a way of telling me that that was what
was going to happen.
I didn't recognize God'spresence in my life at that
point in time, but looking backon it, I really feel as though
God was nudging me and sayingyep, this is the one you're
going to marry.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Wow, and here you are .
So I don't want to get offtrack, but how many years have
you been married?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
then It'll be 53 in May.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah.
So that guy upstairs knew whathe was talking about, even if
you didn't agree with him at thetime.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
That's great Well, congratulations.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, thanks for sharing that part of the story.
Okay, I don't often get theperspective so this has been
kind of nice, all right.
So we've got her story.
She's here to keep you honest,joe oh, I know that yeah, so you
uh, so things are kind ofchugging along.
You're going to school, uh, youand nona are on the right path,
(24:37):
sort of um at least beginningright and then it sounds like,
and then you got your, yournotice I.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I got a draft notice on Halloween to report on, I
think in a week, so that wouldput it in November and went down
for my physical to Detroit andpassed that Wonderful.
And then the army provided mewith my first plane ride in an
(25:10):
old DC-3 to Louisville, kentucky, and then on a bus to Fort Knox
and spent my first week in theArmy taking a battery of tests,
and it was just so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Do I note a hint of sarcasm in your voice?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Is that what I'm hearing?
Just a little, yeah, okay, justwant to make sure.
And we stayed in the oldtwo-story barracks wooden
barracks from World War II, andone of the extracurricular stuff
(25:55):
that we had to do was and theyoffered anybody who was a
draftee if they wanted to enlistfor the extra year to be an
enlistee, they'd guarantee theschool of your choice.
So I said, where do I sign?
(26:17):
So I had to be discharged andthen enlist.
So that was a wonderful morning, thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Government Can't you just extend me for a year and
give me a school.
No, no, we got to throw thispaperwork.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's right.
So when I went in for to getall that done, the sergeant
there he says so what school doyou want to go to?
And I said I don't know.
You have all the informationbecause I hadn't shared it with
(26:54):
me yet.
And he gets out this list andhe's going well, these are all
the schools that you couldenlist in.
You know to go to after basictraining.
So I went down.
The only line that I went downwas how long the school was, and
they had this one that wascalled fixed siphony repair, 32
(27:16):
Foxtrot.
See, you get this stuff and younever forget it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
No, you don't.
It's in your head.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And it was 38 weeks and I and I said, boy, that's
almost a year, that's the one Iwant.
And he looks at it and he goesfix siphony repair.
Do you know what that is?
And I said, no, neither do I.
Well, what it was is, uh,secure voice communications
repair.
So I said, yeah, sounds good tome, you know.
(27:47):
Why not.
Yeah, it was 38 weeks.
That's more than a year.
So I did my two months at FortKnox, then through all the
wonderful conditioning and stufflike that.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Training your body and your mind.
Yes, all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, and so after, and the great thing was that I
learned really quick that Isigned up for every what do you
call it?
The?
That wasn't training, you know,hardcore you didn't have to do
(28:30):
calisthenics, but you had to goand learn about this and I
signed up for jump school andfixed pilot training and I
signed up for everything I couldbecause I got at least four
hours of comp time or trainingtime without having to do
calisthenics.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
It's a beautiful thing, Do you think, do you
think, though, that your timeplaying football helped you go
through basic training?
Were you, were you still kindof a big guy when you went
through basic.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, I was, but I got down.
The one good thing about basictraining was I got to my best
weight that I've ever been, andI was at the fittest.
Yeah.
There were several things thatthe Army gave me, and one of
them was I grew up.
That's a very important lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I wasn't the same person when I came back as I was
when I went in, yeah, but thatexperience, basic training, was
interesting because there wasonly, I would say, in my unit,
my company.
There was our platoon, I don'tknow what it is, but anyway,
(29:47):
most of them came from the south, alabama, georgia, louisiana,
and our sergeant was a northern,northern guy yeah our drill
sergeant and he got the uh sevenpeople that were not from the
South and he gave us all.
(30:09):
We were platoon leaders andacting sergeant.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
So there was a little bit of a benefit there, right?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, there was.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Probably because he could just understand what you
were saying mostly.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Probably, and he knew the caliber of education for
the south in those days right soso we got, we did get benefits
you got some leadership lessonstoo, I'm sure I yes, I did yeah
yep, because one of my, one ofthe uh guys in my unit, uh,
(30:43):
tried to go awol and we had togo down and search for him and
picked them up at the busstation before he got a chance
to go back to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
You know, interesting little side note when I went to
basic training in California inthe Navy and the Navy basic
training is right next to theMarine Corps basic training and
we had a guy who decided hedidn't want to be in the Navy
anymore so he hopped the fenceto go to the airport.
Didn't realize he was hoppingthe fence into Marine Corps
basic training and so and theykept him for like a week or two
(31:16):
and when he came back he was sohappy to be in the Navy.
Navy's the best thing that everhappened to him.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, so you, uh, you know you make it through basic
training and you've chosen thisfield, which I couldn't
pronounce if I tried yeah and uh.
So where did you stay rightthere at fort knox?
Should you go someplace else?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
no, they sent me to um, fort monmouth, new jersey.
Okay, uh, signal school.
And by the time I got out ofbasic training, they'd added
another equipment which made it48 weeks what a shame yeah, and
it's like wow, you know, that'smy year right right, yeah, so
you were in the signal core.
Though I was in the signal core,okay yep and uh got trained,
(31:59):
went to school uh, from 11 pm toto 7 am.
That was my school because itran 24 hours, oh my gosh, and
there were some interestingtimes there.
I learned how to smoke becauseI noticed that the guys that
(32:20):
smoked got breaks and I said Iwant a break.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
There's an incentive to start smoking.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So I did that.
So we had I graduated and oneother person and I were sent to
Berlin, Germany, to set thesystem up for the Berlin Brigade
.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay to set the system up for the Berlin Brigade
.
Okay, now, before we get toofar into that, did you come home
on leave and visit the lovelyNona at all?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Well, she came out to visit me in New Jersey.
Okay and we kind of gotconnected.
But you know, when you're goingto school and you get out at 7
am and it's summer, and you knowyou're just going, oh man, it's
am and it's summer and you'rejust going, oh man, it's a
bright sun and I was sleepy.
So I put my coat over my faceand took a siesta underneath a
(33:17):
tree where I was going to meether, and she never saw me.
Of course I can't blame her fornot lifting up the coat.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right right saw me.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Of course I can't blame her for not lifting up the
coat right right, uh, but theuh folks there were treated her
very kindly and got her set upto stay at the um what was it?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
the, the guest house oh, yeah, yeah, like I.
I know now they call it theArmy Lodge, right, yeah, yeah,
so okay, it'd be the guest house.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, and I came back .
You know, nobody showed up inmy conscious opinion, right?
And so the next thing I did wasgo back to my company, and
there's this Joe Spackman, yourgirlfriend is at the law.
Oh nice, oh okay company, andthere's this joe spackman, your
(34:10):
girlfriend is at the law, ohnice, oh okay, she did come.
Yeah, so we got together there,good good.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
So, and then you, uh, you fly off to germany to to
set, to set this equipment up.
Oh yes, so how was germany?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
germany was nice.
It was a lot better in vietnam,yeah, um, which I was very
happy for, uh, and after thetraining, or being trained for
this, um, it gave me thepotential to have a top secret
crypto clearance.
Um, and sa added on to thatspecial whatever, and that was
(34:50):
one step higher than thepresident has.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Oh, so you got to know things.
The president didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, supposedly.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, hypothetically speaking.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yes, yeah, it took five days to get all the
processing into Europe and thenon the duty train to Berlin
because at that time it was adivided country, right, and
Berlin was divided and gotthrough and picked up and taken
(35:23):
to the company and gets pickedup and taken to the company and
really at that point in my lifeI was not a Christian, I did
everything I could to circumventthe church and, lo and behold,
the company that I was in wasstationed in the former
(35:49):
Liebstandard Adolf Hitlerbarracks in Lichterfeld and I
thought I'd died and gone toheaven.
You, know, I was in the becauseI was into Nazism.
Right.
Neo-nazism and the occult, andI just thought, hey, this is
great.
(36:09):
So after that I got, when Ifinally my clearance finally
came, I got to go into the.
I did a lot of KP before that,right, because as you're waiting
to get your clearance to go tothe comm center, um, that's what
(36:30):
you do.
You do all the nasty stuff allthe stuff nobody else wants to
do, right, that's correct, butone of the advantages was that I
got to go up on the roof andclear the dummy uh mortar rounds
off the roof that the Sovietsand the East Germans shoot over,
just to let us know that theyhave us pinpointed.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Right and that they're still there.
Yes, I want to ask a quickquestion.
Yeah.
How was it that you foundyourself into neo-Nazism and the
occult?
Just curious, that's like youjust sort of said it like oh,
this is what normally happens,but no, so just kind of quickly,
how did you get involved inthat?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Well, when I was 15, I felt I had a call to go into
the ministry of the MethodistChurch and so I went and talked
to my pastor at that time and hesaid, after he stopped laughing
, he said no, I don't think so.
I think you misheard thatbecause the ministry is a
serious path of work and you'renot serious enough to do that,
(37:40):
maybe you should go into acting.
So I figured, if that's what hethought, then this is not the
place I want to be, and I justturned and rejected God at that
point in time, all right.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, I think he missed an opportunity.
To mentor a young man is whathe did.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, it's a great lesson though.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Oh yeah, right, even though it's kind of a negative
lesson, a great lesson to learn,yeah yeah, and I started
collecting uh literature on theoccult satanism, neo-nazism and
on all that stuff, because itjust interested me right um, and
actually it didn't change untilI got out of the Army and got
(38:27):
reconnected to her and thisyoung lady here she says why
don't you go to church with me?
And that's the first time I'dbeen in church since I got out
of left home so to speak, okay.
Because my parents never let meget out of going to church on
sunday right, good for good forthem, though.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Right, yeah, that's right all right, so we'll hold
that thought, we'll go, we'll goback to germany now.
Okay, I just wanted to kind ofget some background on that, uh,
just really for the audienceand for anyone who listens to
this later on in life, like Ididn't want to just breeze past
it.
So sure, yeah, so you're thereand you're kind of in the
homeland, basically.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And you're clearing the dummy rounds off the roof.
Yeah, that doesn't really soundlike a lot of fun to me, but I
guess it could be.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It was an awakening for me, because you know, you
(39:48):
know right off the bat that,because the mystique of Berlin
Brigade is that if a shootingwar heats up, heats up, the best
thing that could happen wouldbe that they'd, you know, the
East Germans and theussianswould, uh, erect signs all over
the place.
you're now prisoners of war, youknow, and without ever having
to close anything down right um,but um, it gave me a a sense
that, uh, that was true and uh,I have lots of stories about
being buzzed by bigs duringcrisis times and and things like
(40:26):
that.
And and to my job of fixingbasically carrying the daily
credit card or credit cards codecards up to the general's
office to be changed daily.
(40:46):
I had to also go to all theother spy agencies that had the
secure voice system that we'dset up and I didn't have to
change their cards, but I had torepair the equipment, yeah.
I didn't have to change theircards.
But I had to repair theequipment.
(41:07):
That's why I had the clearanceto get me into every spy agency.
There were 35.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Wow, that's a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh yeah, fortunately there were two of us.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Right, so you could split that up.
Yeah Well, it sounds like areally interesting job.
But also, if you think aboutthe time right, you're
potentially like front line toWorld War III if it were to
break out right now.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, one of the incidents that
I had, the infantry provided theguards to our comm center,
which was down in the basementof the building that we were in,
and they would change when wehad an alert and the MPs would
come and guard it.
And one day I was just shootingthe breeze with one of the MPs
(41:57):
and I said I've noticed this,why are you?
Why change the guard?
And he says well, it's likethis.
He says we're trained to makesure that you, if shooting war
starts and there's alert status.
He says we're here to make surethat you destroy all your
(42:19):
equipment if need be, and thenget you to the Grunewald where
to hold out for two weeks.
I always thought that was funny, but we're 110 miles behind
enemy lines and we're going tohold out for two weeks.
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Who came up with that ?
Probably someone who didn'thave a clearance.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
And he says to me he says well, well, if we can't get
you there, then our job is toshoot you so that you don't fall
into enemy hands.
And I said who is my enemy here?
right, yeah, who's the realenemy, wow so that was another
awakening, yeah, and I got a lotof incidents that happened
(43:10):
during that time.
It was very, very enlighteningfor me, but it was also
challenging because it shook myworldview, if you will, and
about how things run, if you'redoing what you need to do and I
(43:31):
haven't lost that yet yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can learn,
especially when you're in asituation like that.
It's like a, it's like you'reat war but you're not at war and
you just don't know what'sgoing to happen on a day-to-day
basis.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Really, Right and and the silliness and the inaneness
of the military.
Sometimes, Because I wascarrying coated material, I was
authorized to carry a weapon andthey gave me a .45 automatic, a
Colt .45 automatic, but theydidn't give me any bullets.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
You're not even Barney fife at that point and
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
What am I supposed to do with this gun?
Sure, I don't know, but I foundout.
I had a a very good opportunityto test the theory.
Um, when I was in the general'soffice I neglected to was in
the general's office.
I neglected to lock thegeneral's front door and so I
(44:31):
was in there and I had the safeopen and I was putting the cards
in and the cleaning woman camein.
She was German, to clean theoffice and my instinct was to
pull my weapon and point it ather and say halt, you know you
can't come in here.
And she saw that, point it ather and say halt, you know
you're right, you can't come inhere.
And she saw that gun pointingat her and she buckled and you
know, mop and everything elsewent falling all over the place.
(44:54):
She ran out.
I went over, locked the door,continued until I was done and
came out, and then I was facedwith 45 by the by Right.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
They want to know what you were doing right.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
That's right, that's right, yeah.
And so he was a sergeant and hewas going to just he just read
me the riot act, oh, it was justwonderful.
And I said you know, I wentthrough what I'd been trained to
do.
You are delaying a courier withsecure materials and I just
(45:31):
call the EO emergency operationsofficer, and he'll verify my
presence here.
Well, he didn't do that.
He called the duty officer, theregular duty officer, his duty
officer.
(45:51):
So then they were going to gangup on me here.
Right.
And he was telling me you'regoing to go to Leavenworth.
Oh okay, I just calmly sat downand got my arms across
everything and he had alreadytaken my unloaded weapon yeah,
wouldn't want you hurtingyourself with that, that's right
and so the uh officer of theday, um called the eo officer
(46:19):
and the eo officer read him theriot act and and the next thing,
I know that the uh he calls thesergeant and the sergeant is
sitting there and he says youcan go.
Thank you very much have a niceday.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Can I have my gun back?
Yes, yeah yeah wow.
So yeah, I mean that's.
That's interesting, like whenpeople don't understand what the
protocol is, they can, theythink they're, but they can get
themselves in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, yes.
So how long were you in Germanythen?
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I was there for 18 months.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Okay, all right, and then that was sort of your whole
enlistment, right?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Pretty much yeah, because with the year and in New
Jersey and two or three monthsin basic training and that was
it, yeah, I got.
I think I got out a month earlyokay because, I got out on what
?
Yeah, december, all right homein time for Christmas very nice,
(47:19):
very nice.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
So you fly back home and you've got some it sounds
like some maturity and someinteresting training.
And also you learned a lotwhile you were there.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I did.
I learned a lot about myself.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah, yeah, so you come home.
Did you come right back toMichigan then?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Well, I stopped off to see the sergeant who lived in
Lebanon, ohio, just outsideCincinnati, and he put me up for
a couple days and then he droveme up to Michigan.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Okay, all right, so did you out.
Process then right back at FortKnox I flew into New York.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
And at I think it was Fort Franklin or there in the
harbor someplace.
Yeah, Was discharged.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Okay, all right.
So you go to Ohio for a coupledays and you come back home.
And what was it like cominghome?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
It was nice coming home.
I hadn't changed too much.
I mean, inside I didn't feellike I'd changed some, but I had
really, yeah, and you know, gotreconnected with Nona and that
was when she invited me to go tochurch with her, when I first
walked into the church with her.
(48:46):
That began the process of metransforming back into something
that's not on the dark side ofthe force, right.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Right, you're going to start using your, your powers
, for good at this point right.
Yes, yeah, so I want to.
I got to ask, though, before weget too deep into this, like
was she still slinging milk atQuality Dairy when you got back?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
No, okay.
Speaker 4 (49:13):
No, she was going through the nursing program,
weren't you?
No, I was doing that when wefirst met at.
Quality Dairy.
When you came back, I believe Iwas working either at St
Lawrence.
No, I wasn't working at StLawrence, I was working at Pepsi
when?
At Pepsi.
Oh yes, okay so she's workingat Pepsi when you get back, okay
(49:35):
.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
All right, you reconnected, you go to church,
so let's talk about that.
Okay, you didn't get hit bylightning.
That was a good thing, becausethat's correct, because I would
have been afraid of that walkinginto church after all that time
.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
But yeah, so you go to church.
She was teaching Sunday school.
Uh-huh Little kids, two andthree-year-olds, yeah, and you
know what?
It was?
Christ United Methodist Churchon Jolly Road, and when I walked
in the door, one of the firstpeople that met me was my
homeroom teacher from Sexton.
(50:09):
Oh.
And he welcomed me and heremembered me and he didn't
treat me like a student.
He treated me like any otherperson that would come into the
church.
Yeah, and then I met my algebrateacher and my chemistry
(50:31):
teacher and I'm going and theyall treated me like I was not
one of their students now, butthey remembered me Right, you
were an adult.
I was an adult.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
And this was what?
1971?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
70, 71, yeah, Okay, all right, so it sounds like a
good experience when you firstget oh yeah it was wonderful,
yeah, and then we, we gotserious in our relationship and
we got married in the church andat 1972 and in 74 we both
accepted christ and we became uh, we, we took over the senior
(51:14):
high youth group okay, all right, before we talk about this,
something that's going to be agood story before we talk about
that, talk to me about, likethat moment that you like
realized in your heart you knowwhat I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Like anyone who's anyone who's a christian, who,
um, may not have been achristian before.
This is a moment where yourealize this is for me.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, right, so talk a little bit about that well, um
, we had gone, gone to a laywitness mission.
It was what?
Four days, yeah, from Thursdaythrough Sunday, and we first
signed up to help out in thekitchen and that type of stuff,
(52:01):
but we also attended and thetestimonies of the folks were
very moving, very authentic.
And at the end, with the finalworship, they asked anybody who
(52:22):
was convicted or you knowwhatever, to come forward.
And I went, know whatever, um,to come forward, and I went
forward.
She went forward and we criedand and uh, that's that changed.
That was a life changing event.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Absolutely.
And for anyone listening whodoesn't know understand that
word convicted, um, that's likeum.
It's hard to describe, but it'slike that feeling in your heart
that that you know it's, it'sjust time to give your life over
to Christ, and that's when wetalk about conviction in the
church.
That's really what we'retalking about.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It's what John Wesley talked about in his conversion,
when he felt his heartstrangely warm.
Yes, that he could believe inGod and Christ for salvation.
Yes.
And it's an amazing feeling.
It became real.
Yeah, it became real.
It was the difference betweenknowing about God and knowing
(53:17):
God.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
And it's really the difference between a feeling and
an actual conversion.
Yes, right, because you canfeel something that makes you go
to the altar and convert, butit's the actual, like change in
your life that happens, not justsome feeling you got.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, so you both on the same day.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yes, wow, at the same event.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, that's.
That's pretty amazing, it is.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah, and after that I felt the call again from God
and I went and talked to mypastor then and he affirmed it,
and maybe that's the difference.
I had to go through thistraining process.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
So do you think so?
Earlier on?
This is interesting to me.
So earlier on I made kind ofthe the comment that guy missed
out on a chance to to uh mentora young, a young man but do you?
I mean, when you look back,it's kind of god's plan.
You had to go through all thatother stuff right and figure out
that this is what you needed inyour life, and then here you
(54:20):
are right right.
So it's a whole.
Everything happens for a reason, but we can, you know, when we
look back on it.
Yeah, it all seems to makesense.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, and I look back on it as a training ground for
what I was going to be doing inministry Didn't really.
When I was serving in Allegan,one of our youth group in the
Allegan there was dating a girlwho was all dressed in black and
had the kind of like the whitepancake stuff a goth, yeah, and
(55:03):
he brought her to church where Iwas preaching and as she was
going out, she said hi, I'mSatan.
And I looked at her and I thinkshe was just trying to get a
shocking response from me.
But I said, no, I've seen Satanand you're not him.
(55:23):
And that stopped her short.
And she says well, I'm Satan.
No, I said I've seen Satan andyou are not him, but you're
always welcome here.
And that made all thedifference in her life.
She transformed her life.
(55:43):
She didn't go to our church,right, but she ended up going to
a church that would accept herfor who she was at that point
and she turned her whole lifearound.
So, but if I hadn't had theexperience of black sabbath and
all that other junk, um, maybe Iwould have reacted a different
(56:04):
way right but because I had, Ihad that, then I had.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Well, it's meeting people where they're at right.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
I think sometimes we forget, like Jesus, ate with tax
collectors and prostitutes.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Oh, yes, he did.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
He didn't hang out at the club and hang out with all
the good folk.
He hung out with people thatneeded him to hang out with them
.
Right, and sometimes I think weforget that.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Right, and sometimes I think we forget that.
Yes, yeah, so you're movingalong.
You got married in 1972, right.
And now you're going to tell methat you both were like over a
high school group or somethingbefore.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I rudely interrupted you.
We were the youth group leadersat Christ Church.
Okay.
We've been also youth leadersin about every church we've been
into except the last one andthat type of stuff.
(57:03):
We had people coming fromalmost every high school okamas,
sexton, everett, you know yeahwaverly um don't forget eastern
joe.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
I wouldn't forget that.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Okay, I just want to make sure uh, and you know they
didn't get along because youknow they were from every high
school in the area Right, andthe rivalries kept, you know,
and there were a couple fromthere was one from Everett and
one from Okemos Okemos, yes, andwe took the youth group 10 of
(57:40):
them to Frakes, kentucky, on awork and encounter mission and
the work part of it was that wehelped the community down there
with various tasks.
One of them was canning,because we went down in the fall
(58:02):
Summer yeah, you know canningand and painting and um, because
I was, they put me to workdriving truck and you know
things like that rounding upcattle you know whatever, just
sort of whatever needed to bedone.
It sounds like yeah and we wewere there with uh and doing
(58:26):
this with a youth group fromFlorida and we'd never met until
we got to Frakes and boy, thekids learned a lot about us and
we learned a lot about them.
But these two girls, one fromEverett and one from Okemos,
they didn't get along anytimeduring youth group and they were
(58:51):
put to a four day task ofpainting this little block
storage shed.
They had to work out theirdifferences and they did, and
they came back fast friends andthey still are, and you know,
(59:11):
that's amazing.
And over the years, we haveencountered—it's a good
word—encountered several of ourformer youth group people that
are still active in the church,and what that helps me, and both
of us think, is we made animpact, a positive impact, on
(59:37):
these people.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, the seed you planted grew right.
Yeah, not 100%, but a lot, yeahFor sure.
So when you left the military,you essentially went right into
ministry.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
Then no, okay um, we didn't know what god had in mind
.
We just knew that we wanted todedicate our service yeah uh,
for god's good okay and so wewere thinking about you know, we
we were thinking about goinginto missionary work, but it was
(01:00:11):
pretty definite that God wantedme to be a United Methodist
pastor and he wanted me to beordained.
Okay.
So we went to seminary and thisis a couple years after because
I was involved in the LakeLansing dredging project.
I was working at an engineeringfirm at the time and I worked my
(01:00:35):
way up from draftsman toinspector and then construction
inspector.
And that's where my boss sentme was to the Lake Lansing
dredging project, Cause it hadnever been done on that scale.
And I he told me what I neededto look for and I looked for
(01:00:56):
that and did all the things andhey, I got to drive a pickup
truck.
That's the only time I've everdriven a pickup truck.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Can't go wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I know and I had access to a, a pont pontoon boat
.
Never had a pontoon boat beforeeither, so everything's looking
good for you, joe, oh yeah yeah, so I was out there and for
about five years oh while theydredged yeah, that was a huge
project it was and it'll neverbe done again.
No, it's too expensive and toomuch controversy.
(01:01:27):
Yeah, but I learned a lot andthen after that my first job
after the military was at anarchitectural firm where I
worked my way up from office boyand gopher to a draftsman.
I was a plumbing draftsmanthere and then one of the
(01:01:48):
engineers left to go to SnellEnvironmental Group and they
needed another draftsman.
So he suggested that I call thecompany.
And called the company andinterviewed and got the job and
had another close group offriends yeah we hung out with
(01:02:10):
you know um, we almost gotkicked out of uh, clara's yes
clara's.
Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I remember clara's, yeah, downtown there and we?
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
we weren't drinking uh-huh we were just boisterously
involved in having fun, youknow.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Somebody thought you were drinking must be, yes, I
think so.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Because we were making too much noise.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
So how long were you there then, at the architectural
firm?
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
The architectural firm was only a couple years, I
got laid off and I was only offfor a month or so when I got a
call from Bob Newman aboutapplying at Snell Environmental
Group and Snell had bought thebuilding.
(01:02:57):
That was the church I grew upin.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Seymour Avenue, right in the corner of Saginaw and
Seymour.
Yeah, I know exactly whatyou're talking about, so I could
tell them a lot about thebuilding they were in.
Oh, I'll bet, because I knewevery nook and cranny of that
place.
Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
You knew all the hiding places?
Yeah, so did you go to I justwant to kind of put the timeline
together so did you go toseminary while you were doing
all of this, or you went toseminary after?
After, while you were doing allof this, or you went to
seminary after after, soseminary was like a second
career for you oh, yes, so howlong?
So how long were you at snell?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
I was there for about what?
Five, six years?
Okay, well at least six orseven.
Yeah, it could be.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, because I was a drafts person for two or three
years until they got thecontract for the lake dredging
project yeah and then I uh, thenI got connected with that okay,
so you're doing that for fiveyears, right, and then uh and I
was.
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
I had to finish up my undergraduate degree.
Okay, and I applied at michiganstate and they did not have any
religious studies there, right?
So I ended up going to SpringHarbor for my year and a half or
two years to get myundergraduate degree.
Okay, because I finished up mytwo-year degree from LCC yes, in
(01:04:22):
general education.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
I'd say I want to ask you a question about LCC.
Yeah, general education.
Yes, I want to ask you aquestion about LCC.
Yeah, so I went to LCC right outof high school and I got
terrible grades so I joined themilitary.
So, fast forward, I had to getmy undergrad when I went to
officer candidate school andthis was probably close to 30
(01:04:44):
years after I had gone to LCC.
But I was going back to LCC towork through their program and I
, even though it was 30 yearsago, they put me on academic
probation based on my gradesfrom years ago.
So I just wondered if they Iguess your grades were good
enough to be there but not goodenough to stay out of the
military Right, Whereas mygrades were horrible, but anyway
(01:05:05):
.
Yeah, so they held that againstme.
Did they do that to?
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
you?
Yes, they did.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Yeah, I was on probation until I got it up
above 2.
Okay yeah, I think I graduatedwith maybe a 2.8, but I was a
lot better student Right andthat's how low my grades got.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
You learned a few things right I did yeah so you,
uh, you get your undergrad andthen, um, at what point did you
go to seminary then?
What year would that have been?
Was?
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
that 1983 we went because I graduated in 87 yeah,
yeah, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Okay, so where'd you go to seminary?
Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
In Dayton, ohio, at United Theological Seminary.
Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Okay, and that was four years long then for you.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
It was well.
It was three years of classroom, but I took a year off to go to
England for a year.
Okay.
To be the student pastor atWesley's Chapel in London.
Oh how cool.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
That must have been a great experience.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Oh, it was.
Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
We learned more about Wesley and Methodism than we
ever thought we'd ever learn,even the backdoor stories.
Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Right right, Are they affiliated with the Wesleyan
College down in Virginia?
Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Well, wesleyan faith came out of that.
Methodism got started here inthe colonies in 1784 at the
Christmas conference inBaltimore, ohio, baltimore,
maryland yeah, not Baltimore.
Baltimore.
Maryland, baltimore, maryland,baltimore yeah, not Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Baltimore, maryland, baltimore, maryland.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Gotcha Yep and I had relatives that attended that.
Okay.
From Pennsylvania, becausethat's where my family's from.
Uh-huh.
And so I learned that and I'vehad a—I come from a line of
(01:07:13):
Methodists.
My one great great relative,great, great great relative in
the 1800s was a lay preacher forthe Methodist circuit in
Pennsylvania, centralPennsylvania, and I have his
(01:07:34):
certificate of of that.
He can do that.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, that's a nice piece of history for your family
.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
It is.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Yeah, oh, interesting , fun fact I was baptized at the
United Methodist Church onPennsylvania Avenue.
Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Yeah, it's not a Methodist church anymore, it's
something else.
But yeah, it was a Methodistchurch when I was a kid, calvary
.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
Yeah, sycamore Creek.
Yeah, it's Sycamore Creek now.
Yeah, but it was, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Didn't know that.
Didn't know that.
But yeah, it was the UnitedMethodist Church when I was a
kid.
So you go to England, you hangout there for a year.
Yep, learn a lot of great stuff, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Yes, I found out about a lot of religions because
one of the duties of thestudent pastor because they had
had several student pastors wewere the first to go.
I was the oldest to go, chosento go there's one a year and I
(01:08:35):
was the only married one to go.
And it was good that she wentalong because she helped set up
the computer system at Wesley'sChapel and she has that skill
because I don't.
And I found out that part of mytask was not only to assist the
(01:08:58):
pastor the head pastor on Sundaymornings but also do the
Thursday midweek service at noonfor the business district,
because City Road is in themiddle of the mile square of
central London and it'sbasically office buildings.
(01:09:20):
So we'd open up the church fortours of Methodists and anybody
else who wanted to come by.
But also we had a service everyweek and that was my job of
running that and then also beingthe free church chaplain at the
(01:09:41):
City of London Polytechnic andthe City University in
Clerkenwell and right across thestreet from the Tower of London
.
And as part of that my dutieswere to provide pastoral care
and services, if you will, toanybody who wasn't Anglican
(01:10:04):
Church of England or RomanCatholic anybody who wasn't
Anglican Church of England orRoman Catholic, so that included
Druids, baptists, everybodyelse that had Muslims, buddhists
, wow.
So I learned a lot about a lotof that stuff and the religions
just by osmosis.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Right.
What a great experience to haveunder your belt.
Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Oh, yeah, so when you come back.
Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
So how did that work?
You were two years in Ohio andthen a year.
Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
The first two years I was in Ohio attending classes
going through the regularseminary.
Third year we were in Londonand the fourth year then I came
back to my senior year to get mydegree.
Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Okay, all right, and then so in 1987, it sounds like
you got your degree.
Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Where'd you go from there?
Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Then I began to be a circuit pastor.
Okay.
From the churches and a circuitpastor from the churches.
Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
And a circuit pastor means you didn't have like one
church right.
Well that's very true.
Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
When I was going to Spring Arbor College to get my
undergraduate degree, I was astudent pastor at Mulliken,
which was quarter time, and whenI went to seminary, usually, in
(01:11:36):
the scheme of things, in theMethodist church you don't go
back to any place.
You've been for quite some time.
So when I got my firstappointment they had made that
they had made Mulliken and Cebua center out by uh uh, out West
side of you know, by Grand Ledge, sort of beyond there oh you're
(01:12:00):
fine and uh yeah, and she isfrom Sunfield, so that was like
going home for her and herparents became members of the
church and that's where theysent me for my first four years.
Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Then we went to three churches north of St John's and
then to one church in Alleganand one church in Pawpaw, and
then I retired and then I spent11 years at Delta Mills in
Northwest Lansing.
Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
Okay, familiar with that area too.
Yeah, so even though you'reretired, you weren't really
retired, no, yeah, now I'mretired.
Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Yeah, so you're not doing any of that now, yes, I am
, I'm teaching sunday school, ofcourse you just can't get away
like yeah, I retired from twodifferent jobs and I still do
this, so yeah yeah, I get itlike I think, if I didn't do
something I'd really yeah, yeah,and god's god still blesses me
with the skills he's, he's,taught me yeah and so I use them
(01:13:07):
yeah well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Now a question I have is I noticed that we didn't
talk about still blesses me withthe skills he's taught me, yeah
, and so I use them.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Now a question I have is Inoticed that we didn't talk
about children and I have to askyou did you have kids, or you
were just raising everybodyelse's kids?
Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Yes, we raised everybody else's kids.
We were not blessed withchildren?
Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Yeah, but it wasn't for lack of trying, yeah Well
you know, got to do what you gotto do there, joe, yeah, so yeah
, so you're retired, but you'restill teaching Sunday school,
right, we're doing pastoral careOkay.
Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Helping out with the pastoral care.
Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, so it sounds like it's a very I mean, it
sounds very fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
It is yeah, and it's a lot easier to do.
I don't have to worry about allthe paperwork or anything like
that, Right right.
Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
It's like being a reserve cop, right, Like you get
to do the good parts but youdon't have to worry about all
the other stuff yes.
Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.
So I mean, you've lived a fulllife and it's been interesting
to hear where you started andwhere you're at now.
So I do want to ask.
I have two questions.
The first one is is thereanything that we didn't talk
(01:14:15):
about that you would like tomake sure that we do talk about?
Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Oh yeah, I'm still involved with the folks that I
met in the military from Berlinand we meet every two years
anywhere in the country.
Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
We haven't been to Texas yet, but we've been to New
Hampshire.
We have one couple that livesin Muskegon, so we've been here,
they've come to our house andthings like that.
But we've also been Branson,missouri, ohio, ohio, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
When's the next one?
Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
This coming September we're going to York,
pennsylvania, that area.
Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Oh nice.
Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
And it'll be the first time for the guy that
lives there.
Uh huh.
Um, he's never been able to tomake any of them, so.
Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Isn't it really interesting to, to reconnect
with your army buddies, yourmilitary friends, Because for me
it always seems like, hey, wejust pick up where we left off.
Nothing really changes.
Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Right, and she was not a part of it because, I
wasn't married and the otherswere so far.
So, which was interesting, Ihung out with all these married
people.
Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
Right Probably kept you on the straight and narrow,
maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I think that was planned as well.
Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
Yeah, well, that's good that you stay connected.
Um, you know, I find thatpeople either do or they don't,
you know, but it's, it's reallygood.
Um, I think that's like it'spart of your history, right?
Yeah, and we're very goodfriends still with folks that I
worked with at snellenvironmental okay um, you know,
except for some losses we'vehad Right, but that happens in
life.
Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
Yeah, especially as we get older, right.
Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
I turned 60 today, so yeah, well, congratulations.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Happy birthday.
Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
Another time around the sun.
I guess I got.
So, that's good, so yeah, so,really, the only.
I have one final question toask you, and that is as people
listen to this story and hearabout your life, what message
would you have for them?
Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
You're never too bad, lost or not grown up enough to
change.
Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
Great message and I want to say thank you to both of
you for taking time out of yourday to be here with us, and I
look forward to talking with youagain.
Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Yeah, thank you.
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