May 22, 2025 • 77 mins
From the quiet suburbs of St. Clair Shores, Michigan to the chaotic streets of Mogadishu, Kevin Justice's military journey spans over twenty years and four major conflicts that shaped modern American history. Kevin's story begins with his 1989 enlistment in the Army as a petroleum supply specialist, following in his father's military footsteps.
The conversation takes us through Kevin's evolution from a fresh recruit at Fort Leonard Wood to a combat veteran deployed to Desert Storm, Somalia, Bosnia, and Iraq. His vivid descriptions of Somalia are particularly gripping - "If you could find a place on this earth that was the rottenest place in the world, that was probably one of them." As a driver navigating Mogadishu's dangerous streets, Kevin faced daily threats while restrictive rules of engagement tied soldiers' hands from adequately protecting themselves.
What emerges through Kevin's story is how military service fundamentally rewires your thinking. "Everywhere I go - where's the exit? What will I do if this happens?" This heightened situational awareness becomes second nature, a permanent lens through which veterans view the world long after their service ends. His philosophy is powerfully simple: "Follow your instincts. It's your gut that's going to get you through life and hard times. If you second guess your gut, you're going to second guess your life."
After retiring as a drill sergeant in 2009, Kevin's transition to civilian life included work in corrections, education, and finally hospital security, where his military training continues to serve him well. His ability to handle challenging situations has earned him the respect of medical staff who know they can count on him in crisis situations.
Have you listened to a veteran's story lately? Their experiences offer valuable perspective on resilience, adaptability, and maintaining composure under pressure - lessons that transcend the battlefield and apply to everyday life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today is Thursday, may 22nd 2025.
We're talking with KevinJustice, who served the United
States Army.
So good morning, kevin.
Good morning.
It's a pleasure to be here inbeautiful West Branch today, by
the way.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I don't know about so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
It's a little.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What do they say?
So beautiful?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
A little questionable there, huh, uh-huh, all right.
Well, we'll get started, andreally the first question I have
is when and where were you born?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was born April 27, 1971, in Detroit, michigan, grew
up in St Clair Shores, michigan.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Okay, so how was it that you?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
were born in Detroit I believe it was Detroit Mercy,
uh-huh but then we moved to StClair Shores.
Okay, and so so did youbasically grow up in St Clair
Shores then?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, I grew up in St Clair Shores, all right.
Well, tell me a little bitabout childhood.
You have brothers and sisters.
I've got one brother and twosisters, okay, and where do you
fall in the pecking order withall that?
I'm the oldest one, okay, soyou're the oldest child.
I have an older sister whothinks she's my boss, even still
today.
Is that kind of how you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Not so much so so, yeah, so tell me about being a
kid at St Clair Shores.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, grew up in St Clair Shores, went to a
parochial school, uh, st IsaacJogues.
From first grade through eighthgrade played basketball, played
baseball.
I started baseball when I wasyoung, in first grade, and
continued all the way outthrough eighth grade, including
(01:42):
the Catholic Youth Organizationorganization elite, which is a
spring league, then playedsummer ball.
I started basketball in fifthgrade and played basketball all
the way out to 12th grade ofhigh school.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, so you're in parochial school up through like
middle school.
Then yes, all right.
Was this still at a time whennuns would hit your fingers with
the ruler, or?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
any of that?
We didn't.
I had one nun as a teacher andthat was second grade.
She liked to flip desks.
Oh, so I'm not sure about thehitting of the ruler, but I know
what you're talking about.
Flipping a desk will definitelyget your attention.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, so what was it like transitioning from
parochial school then intopublic school?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So what was it like transitioning from parochial
school then into public school?
A lot of my classmates from theparochial school went to the
public school, but I knew someof them from playing baseball in
summer league with them.
But other than that, it wasn'tthat bad, okay.
And how was school for you?
School wasn't that bad, okay.
And how was school for you?
(02:44):
School wasn't that bad.
I mean, I didn't excel like Iprobably should have, but I
found out later that, yeah, I'mpretty smart.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have to be outside of the
school setting to find out howsmart you really are Not
everybody excels sitting in aclassroom.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, my brother is very similar.
Didn't do well in school at all, but really excelled when he
got out, so, yeah, so anythingfrom school or any memories from
school that you'd like to share, anything kind of stick out in
your mind.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
One thing is that I was on a baseball team that my
dad coached and we wentundefeated and took the
championship, and I was analternate for the All-Star team
that year Wow, so if I could doit over again, I probably would
have stayed in baseball insteadof going to basketball.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was really good athitting, but my defense was yeah
(03:49):
okay.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, you said your dad coached that team.
Tell me a little bit about yourdad well.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
He did a lot for us growing up.
He passed away six years agodue to cancer.
So I get involved with peoplethat have cancer.
I have a friend that lives inColorado, that's part of a
(04:18):
cancer group, who's also aveteran.
She served in the same branchas my brother did.
I became friends with her andshe did a lot as far as cancer
awareness.
He taught us the do's and thedon'ts.
So did my mom.
I'm not going to say theydidn't.
(04:44):
Let us get away with what kidsget away with now.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Right, there was some accountability in your house.
Yes, yeah, what did your dad dofor a living?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He worked at GM Okay Computer data processor.
He was also a vet.
He served two years in theUnited States Army.
Um, he went to school, or hewent during the, or he was in
basic during Vietnam.
Uh, from what the stories hetold us is that he was.
(05:17):
He came down on orders twice togo to Nam and they rescinded
his orders both times due to hisjob.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Uh huh, so Okay.
And then, what about your mom?
What are some of your memoriesof your mom?
She was a lunch lady at theschool so you didn't get away
with anything at school, did you?
You couldn't really get awaywith anything at school, not?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
not at grade school, or and not as synagic jokes.
Yeah, she also told us, right,you know, taught us right and
wrong, what to do, what not todo, if we would get in trouble,
if they and they would alwaysfind out if we did something
(05:56):
wrong, right, so you couldn'tget anything past them yeah well
, I always told my kids nomatter what you can think of
doing, I've done it and beencaught doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So good luck.
Oh yeah, that was kind of myspiel to them.
So you cruise along throughhigh school.
You switched from baseball tobasketball.
I'm assuming you graduated highschool then?
Yes, okay, and then so whathappened after graduation?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well, after graduation, I didn't have very
good grades, so I didn't seemyself as a college type, so I
joined the military.
Okay, and that was.
I graduated in May of 89, and Ijoined in September of 89.
All right.
And then why the Army?
I tried the Air Force.
They told me I had to wait sixmonths in order to reapply again
(06:45):
.
I tried the Navy.
The Navy didn't.
I didn't like any of the jobsthat the Navy offered and I
wasn't going to go into theMarines, You're right.
So I joined the Army.
The jobs that I was offered?
None of them felt appealingexcept patrolling a supply
(07:07):
specialist, Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And that's what you.
So, then, that's what youcontracted for.
Uh-huh, all right, yes, now you.
So where'd you go to basictraining?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I went to basic training, fort Leonard Wood.
Oh, okay, yeah, fort Lost inthe Woods, very familiar with
Fort Leonard.
Wood.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
They have a great German restaurant just outside
the gates, so I don't know if itwas there when you were there.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I was there, I wouldn't know.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, you probably just were.
So tell me about basic trainingOnce you get there and you hop
off that bus.
What was that like?
We?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
were at reception for the weekend, because we arrived
on the weekend, so it wasn't.
I mean, granted, we had dutiesthat we had to do, but there was
a lot of downtime becausenothing was open, right, um.
And then all of a sudden wewere like okay, here comes the
week, so I know a lot of us aregoing to be going out.
(07:58):
Uh, from what my memory serves,we saw one drill sergeant and
he didn't say a word.
We got on what they calledcattle trucks and once we got on
the cattle trucks, he stood atthe door and that was it.
As soon as we got to ourcompany, oh yeah, it's like all
(08:20):
hell broke loose, right, fortLeonard Wood at that time was
still all male, so we didn't seeany women in the military at
all.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, because everything was still pretty well
segregated between male andfemale at that time.
So what are some of the thingsyou remember most about basic
training?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Some of the things I remember most was physical
training was pretty difficultand hard at times.
We had really good drillsergeants my platoon.
We had one private whose one ofhis relatives passed away and
(09:06):
when he came back he wasn't thesame.
We had another one that justwasn't the same.
He tried to go AWOL.
What else can I remember aboutFort Leonard Wood?
Oh, I've never seen somebody goto sleep in a push up position
until then or in other positionsthat the drill sergeant put
(09:28):
them in.
Or one of our drill sergeantsgot all the platoon in one bay
and they took this other privateover the same private into
another bay and smoked them infull mop four gear.
Yeah, uh, that's a great weightloss program, um, but the
(09:48):
kicker about the whole thing isthat we ended up getting honor
platoon uh-huh we had first time, we had best pt average, we had
best scores qualification, wehad best overall score of end of
cycle testing.
And I mean we went from.
They have phases white, blue,red and basic training was nine
(10:12):
weeks long and now I think it'slike 12 or 13 weeks long, but we
stayed in white phase for thelongest while the other platoons
went into blue phase.
We got into blue phase and allof a sudden we were going into
red phase.
So, yeah, we stayed in whitefor a while, but we still ended
up getting on our platoon.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's pretty amazing .
What a great honor to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Did your parents or family come down on your
graduation?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yes, my mom and dad came down for graduation.
Okay, how was that?
It was pretty good.
Yeah, yes, my mom and dad camedown for graduation.
Okay, how was that?
It was pretty good.
They've never been to that partof Missouri, I guess, so
neither have I.
We didn't have very much time.
Okay, graduation, and then Iwas off the next day to Fort Lee
, virginia, to do my MOStraining.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Okay, and so no break in between you weren't right to
AIT.
No, I went straight to AIT.
Okay, so tell me a little aboutAIT.
How was?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
that we got to AIT and we ended up being there on
the weekend due to the fact thatwe graduated basic right before
Thanksgiving.
So we were like, okay, so wegot in, we were in a holding
company and we didn't knowexactly what companies we were
(11:30):
going to until the followingweek, so we didn't have drill
sergeants in this holdingcompany, but then we knew they
were around, so we really didn't, yeah.
So it was kind of very similarto basic training that when you
first got there just kind ofyou're there we, uh, I got to
(11:50):
hotel company uh at fort lee,which was at that time 77 fox
trots, and that's when westarted seeing females and we
were like we didn't see these inbasic okay.
Um, we were kind of shocked atfirst but then everybody was
(12:12):
like okay, you know, females hadtheir own platoon.
I was in another platoon,didn't really see our drill
sergeant that much because hehad another class, and later on
down the road I found out whyyou didn't see a drill sergeant
that that much, because he hadanother class.
And later on down the road Ifound out why you didn't see a
drill sergeant that that muchbecause they had different
classes and they had to takecare of these classes graduating
(12:32):
before they get to the nextclass.
And so Fort Lee wasn't too badhow long were you there?
I was at Fort Lee from 89 to 90.
I was November to April.
(12:54):
Okay, I think it's 13 weeks, 14weeks long.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And then, what was your first duty station after
that?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, after I got done with Fort Lee lee, I went
on to fort dix, new jersey, as aadvanced skill identifier
driving trucks.
Due to my mos of 77 fox, we hadto learn how to drive trucks,
okay.
So I learned how to drive.
A could be a tanker, 5k tanker,a semi, uh, five ton.
(13:25):
So that was actually pretty fun.
That was a little bit morelenient.
We were considered.
We weren't considered permanentparty, but we weren't
considered in training, eitherright or we weren't considered.
So we were kind of sort of inbetween.
There were drill sergeants, butthey were a little bit more
lenient.
We had free time on theweekends.
(13:46):
We didn't have GI parties likeyou did at BASIC or AIT, so that
wasn't too bad there and thatwas only like five weeks long,
okay.
And then from there my firstduty station was Okinawa, japan.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Okay, how'd you like Okinawa?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Oh, I loved Okinawa.
I actually got to learn my job.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah.
So you really like many timespeople like get training, get a
job, and then, because of howthings work out, they end up
doing something else.
But you actually got to do yourjob.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.
In Okinawa, what kind of stuffdid you do?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
We supplied.
My battalion, supplied thewhole island, along with the 7th
Fleet, with fuel.
Okay, it was a fixed pipelinesystem, so we worked on tank
farms.
I got to learn from theOkinawans that worked on the
tank farms how to go ahead andsend fuel through the lines,
(14:44):
test fuel or get fuel out, howto scrape a line, how to go
ahead and receive fuel fromships from a mooring pier, how
to inspect the ships.
Right before I left Okinawa, Iwas trained to be a ship
inspector While I was at OkinawaDesert was trained to be a ship
(15:05):
inspector While I was atOkinawa.
Desert Storm, desert Shieldkicked off, or Desert Shield,
desert Storm.
There were 12 of us that camedown on orders because they were
expecting a lot more casualtiesthan what actually transpired
it was a very quick war.
(15:26):
Yes, that initial yeah, we 12 ofus, we actually we had three
volunteer.
Those three volunteers ended upgoing with special force
special forces groups, or unitsto support special forces groups
, then units to support specialforces groups.
Then I guess they saw that hey,there's an overabundance over
(15:49):
there, we need more of them.
So 12 more of us got orders togo over there.
We left Okinawa, we went toFort Knox for training.
Yes, I got to see Fort Knoxagain.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So you went from Japan to Fort Knox for training
and then you Desert Shield,desert Storm.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Okay, once I got over there I had orders for 18th
Airborne Corps.
But we all had orders for 18thAirborne Corps, but then, once
we got there, they split us up.
I ended up going myself andanother buddy went to 3rd ACR,
3rd Armored Cav Regiment.
Once we got there I was withthe transport unit.
(16:36):
He ended up going to one of theline units.
Okay, I stayed 10 kilometersoff the border the whole time
until after the actually, afterthe war is when we went over and
cleaned up quite a bit of theline company's messes.
I know all about Pipeline Road.
(16:58):
I know all about Log Base,charlie, because we traveled to
it constantly, charlie, becausewe traveled to it constantly.
30 ACR was part of that sweepthat came down from the north.
Yes, I saw all the maneuveringelements going through the
desert, watched them go through.
(17:18):
I know exactly where theMarines were encountered at Half
Arrow, bottom.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
What was that like to see all that going on.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
As an 18-year-old, 19-year-old At first scary, yeah
.
But then you start thinkingit's like, okay, what to do next
?
What happens if this?
What happens if this?
What to do next?
What happens if this?
(17:50):
What happens if this you'reused?
You start getting a mindset ofwhat you're going to do if this
happens, right, um, what willyou know?
What will you do if you seethis?
You know, as a as as young aswe were, now there were veterans
with us from Panama or otherplaces.
I mean, in basic, our drillsergeants scared us to bits and
(18:12):
pieces because Panama kicked off, right, and they basically said
that you're not going to yourjob, you're going down to Panama
just because.
And I'm like, oh lovely, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right.
Looking back on that, thatdidn't make any sense right?
No, at the time you're like ohboy here we go.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But being a veteran of a foreign war that young, it
doesn't really hit you.
Once we got back to KhobarTowers we were all trying to
hook back up.
We were all trying to hook backup and it didn't hit me until
(18:48):
actually if I back up a littlebit at Cobar Towers about six of
us met back up again.
We were trying to go back toour base in Okinawa.
Now, these are all statesideunits so they didn't want no
part of us, so we kind of gotthrough as outcasts.
So we hooked up and the e5 thenwent with us.
(19:11):
We finally met up with him atcobar towers.
Well, he had family at travis.
So we were like okay, if wecould get to travis airboys air
force base in california we cancatch a hop to okinawa.
Now, mind you, we brought ourown weapons with us, right?
So we couldn't, you know, wecouldn't leave our weapons.
(19:33):
So once we got a hop because wefinally got a hop to Westover
Air Force Base, I think inMassachusetts we're like okay,
(19:53):
not a problem, once we getstateside we can hop.
Yeah.
Well, luckily for me, I was oneof the very few that kept orders
, uh, bringing us over there.
So once we got to air forcebase and this is where hit me
the most was that I was havingkids come up asking me for their
(20:16):
auto, for my autograph.
And then I heard I hear LeeGreenwood song, constantly proud
to be an American, and that'swhen it hit.
I'm a veteran of a foreign war.
Right From that moment on I waslike I can't believe this.
You know, once we got toWestover Air Force Base and we
(20:39):
saw all this and all thewelcoming and Vietnam vets
welcoming us back, I was likeawesome.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, I think we got treated pretty well when we came
in.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, a lot better than Vietnam vets, and I'm glad
to see that they're actuallystarting to get what due to them
.
Absolutely so, once we werethere, we had to put our weapons
in their armory.
Well, we were able to get intouch with our battalion back in
Okinawa and they basically sayyou can come back on the same
(21:11):
orders you flew over there on.
Okay, does anybody have a setof orders?
Yeah, I still got a set.
Well, one slight problem westill had weapons, and we were
able to fly on civilian aircraftthen, and they're like well,
(21:32):
this is what we can do.
Luckily, I had an extra duffelbag that wasn't packed all the
way.
So we broke down our weapons,put the bolts in one, put the
weapons in the other, and wewere allowed to carry them on
the airplane and we flew backcivilian style all the way back
to Okinawa.
Oh nice, so long flight, though.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, that's not a short flight at all, so how long
did you stay in Okinawa?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That was two years Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And then where from?
There?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I went to Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah Georgia.
Uh-huh and let's see, I gotthere in 92.
As soon as I got there I wastasked out to go to another unit
for their training exercisethat was just coming up on Fort
(22:22):
Stewart.
I got tasked out quite a bitwhen I got there, Probably
within the first six months Iwas there.
I think I saw the field fourmonths out of that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And so this was different too, because now
you're refueling vehicles andaircraft.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Actually, we weren't doing any kind of refueling.
Oh, okay, we were in aquartermaster battalion but
working in the motor pool doingany kind of refueling.
Okay, I was in a.
We were in a quartermasterbattalion but working in the
motor pool.
Okay, now we had an airfieldand we had a platoon or we had a
.
You know, some people work inthe airfield but everybody had
to start in the motor pool atfirst.
Right, we also had a tank farmand I started in the motor pool.
(23:04):
Hurricane andrew hit, so we gotuh deployed down florida for
hurricane andrew.
I was driving what they call ans&p trailer, five ton s&p
trailer, so I was doing a lot ofline hauling with that uh trash
or you know, you know any kindof equipment that we could set
up a what they call a ROM siteor a rope.
(23:28):
You site refuel on the movesite and didn't really get to do
my job.
I was more okay.
Preventive maintenance, checksand services constantly.
Well, if you know anythingabout Georgia Georgia's hot
during the summertime- yes, itis.
(23:51):
So I got stationed there.
Well then, hurricane Andrew hit.
We spent 30 days down in MiamiHomestead.
Got to go on a cruise to theBahamas.
That is R&R.
Got to see the Miami Dolphincheerleaders Came back while or
(24:17):
after we got back.
Somalia kicked off OperationRestore Hope.
Yeah.
And we got deployed over there.
Okay, I don't remember the year, it was probably 93, beginning
of 93.
January 93, february 93.
We're over in Somalia doingwater, because as a fueler you
(24:47):
can also do water.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, just basically transferring liquids.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, there's a little bit more stuff to water,
but at the time there wasn't anywater supply units available in
the United States Army, so webasically used the same kind of
equipment, just a little bitdifferent, but not too much
different.
Okay, so we got deployed overto Operation Restore Hope.
(25:16):
Somalia was an eye-opener.
Somalia was.
If you could find a place onthis earth that was the
rottenest place in the world.
That was probably one of them.
I know there's probably otherplaces, but Somalia was an
(25:39):
experience.
I got tasked out to being adriver, driving around a
lieutenant and a civilian to goahead and set up sites or go to
meetings or whatever, allthroughout Mogadishu.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Not a safe place either.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
No, it's not.
Yeah, as a driver, you don'thave the luxury of trying to
protect yourself.
Well, I did.
I ended up getting an end of acot and I had a metal pole right
next to me just in case becauseI couldn't use my weapon and
rules of engagement over therewe were.
(26:21):
Our hands were tied Right.
Weapon and rules of engagementover there we were, our hands
were tied right.
Um, but I've had.
I had people try to come up andtry to take stuff off of me and
threaten me with knives andeverything else.
Had this one guy come up and assoon as he come up to the
window, I took that metal poleand just did like whack, like
that.
Luckily he got his hands out ofthe way before I could get his
(26:41):
hands.
He cursed me out left and rightIn this cut V we had people
trying to hop in the back, tryto take stuff out.
So you had to watch your backwhile you were traveling.
Yeah, an incident happenedwhile we were going from the
(27:03):
city because I was leading aconvoy.
We're going by the Newport andan incident happened with the
Marines there.
We're like we're going down tothe old port because that's
where we were stationed, orthat's where we had our unit, at
right, next to the Italians.
And well, the Marines told uswell, if you go down this road
(27:26):
and then take a right on thisroad, you'll be out of the
danger zone.
Okay, we listened to what theysaid.
We took the left.
Okay, we're out of danger.
Then, all of a sudden, we tooka right.
Now I have five Humvees or'reout of danger.
Then, all of a sudden, we tooka right.
Now I have five Humvees, orfive, five tons following me.
(27:47):
When we took the right and Itold the leader, I was like, sir
, this isn't good.
They put us right in the middleof this thing.
No, we'll be okay, we'll beokay.
No, sir, now, mind you, I'monly an E4 at that time, a
specialist Right, and as soon aswe started driving, all you
(28:11):
started seeing were rocks flying.
The second lieutenant went inand said what I want you to do
is step on the gas and haul, getthrough this.
Well, I stepped on the gas.
Well, I was smart enoughbecause I didn't want to get hit
by a glass or a rock.
Right, I put my Kevlar upagainst the window, driving like
(28:34):
this, and I just floored it.
Luckily, I didn't breakanything on the vehicle, had a
rock hit the hood, had a rockhit the back window, had a rock
hit the the hood, had a rock hitthe back window, had had a rock
hit the mirror on my side.
So, yeah, I was close on beingrocked at that time and we made
(28:55):
it through.
But we had what they call airgunners on the back of these
five tons mm-hmm.
Well, they got in, they gotdown and they just started
shooting up in the air.
Go ahead and stop these peoplefrom throwing rocks.
We didn't know until later whathappened and apparently one of
the Marines shot one of theSomalians and, yeah, all hell
(29:16):
broke loose then.
So once we got down there, ourunit, our platoons, kind of sort
of switched.
We went from doing water tostart doing fuel and water.
So we ended up moving oneplatoon back to the airport to
(29:40):
go ahead and start doing waterand also doing fuel at the same
time, because I guess one of theunits and I don't remember who
it was they were leaving sonobody was doing fuel.
Well, that's our job, we knowhow to do it.
Yeah, I ended up.
I ended up going with anotherunit over and being in charge of
(30:02):
a marshalling area that was onkind of sort of the back side of
Mogadishu.
It used to be a five-star hotelI actually saw a picture of it
when it was actually good.
Yeah, we had kids try to comein.
It was a marshalling area forall units coming from the inner
cities to leave in the country.
(30:24):
Somebody I went to basic with Iactually saw there.
Oh, so I didn't see hardlyanybody.
I went to basic with after basicor AIT with after I left AIT
and ASI.
We all went to different unitsWow, to different units.
I actually saw him there.
(30:45):
And while we were there, well,big cement wall surrounding this
whole area with different guardposts up and didn't stop them
from coming in, so you had to beon your toes.
They'd go ahead and chip awayat the cement and make a hole
(31:06):
and get it bigger and bigger andbigger, go in there and steal
stuff either.
You know whatever they couldsteal.
If you hear, if you heard azing coming, you better be
ducking because they hadslingshots and they were very,
very accurate with slingshots.
Oh, in those, that zing thatyou heard was a rock flying at
(31:29):
you.
I did some, you know.
One second All right, go ahead.
(31:49):
Rules of engagement over there,they weren't all that great.
We were under one command whilewe were there.
Then NATO took, or the UN tookover.
So rules of engagement evenactually went worse.
We couldn't do any kind of harmto anybody, even if we were at
(32:13):
harm.
And did I fire my weapon atanybody?
No.
Did I point it at somebody?
Yes, and I didn't care how oldthey were.
It's either your life or mylife and it's not going to be my
(32:34):
life.
So we had some soldiers getinjured in that marshalling area
because of these rocks comeflying.
We had them get injured becauseof other stuff that came flying
.
So I wasn't going to take achance.
They knew exactly if you didsomething, as in raise your
(32:55):
weapon up, they stopped throwingrocks and you can say these
were kids or adults, anywherebetween the ages of five and up.
Well, they don't have anything.
So they were trying to get foodor whatever.
We had one platoon that wasdown the street, about a mile
(33:15):
and a half to two miles down thestreet.
They were right across from youknow kitty corner, from one of
Adid's houses, and they weregetting shot at.
Every night I found out I'mlike no, uh-uh, I'm not playing
this game.
So it was our turn to leave andwe got back to Georgia.
(33:39):
About two weeks later we foundout the Pakistanis got ambushed
on October 21 Road.
Well, I know exactly where thatroad is at.
I traveled it constantly.
It was like two miles down fromwhere one of our platoons was
working out of Right.
Well, I was downtown inSavannah at a club.
(34:04):
Next thing I see are localpolice, local law enforcement,
coming in.
Police coming in, saying allmilitary personnel need to
report back to their units.
Okay, I get back to my unit,and, sure enough, that's when
the Blackhawks went down.
Now this was probably about amonth after we left.
And, sure enough, that's whenthe Blackhawks went down.
(34:25):
This was probably about a monthafter we left.
They were asking for volunteersor we asked if you know, are
they taking anybody over there?
24th ID got alerted before theychanged it to I think it's 3rd
ID now, but 24th got alerted andwe supplied 24th along with the
(34:56):
ranger bat that was on HunterArmy Airfield.
Once 24th got alerted, 12 of usvolunteered to go with 24th
over there to go get our peopleout.
I know exactly where thoseBlackhawks went down.
I traveled the city constantly.
Yeah, I was one of the 12.
They said, no, you're not goingover there because y'all are
going to take matters into yourown hands.
(35:16):
And we were like, yes, we are,because those are our people.
Rules of our hands were tied.
Our hands are not going to betied.
And from that moment on I'mlike this is the second war or
second second conflict that I'ma veteran of.
No, I'm not.
(35:38):
I'm not leaving any more fallencomrades or fallen people
behind.
They told us no, so we didn'tgo.
Well, I was there from 92 to 93.
November of 93, I PCS'd toGermany because I re-enlisted
(35:58):
for Germany.
That's when I actually got backto doing my job again.
I was an aviation unit over inGermany and I learned quite a
bit again.
Yeah, I loved aviation.
Aviators take care, it doesn'tmatter if you're a crew chief,
if you're a pilot, they willtake care of their own Right?
(36:19):
Yeah, they take care of you.
They need you.
Mm-hmm, they're you know, we'retheir own Right.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, they take care of you.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
They need you, mm-hmm , they're, you know, we're their
bread and butter.
They can't go nowhere, mm-hmm.
So I had a great battalioncommander.
I had a great battalionsergeant major.
When I first got there, I neverthought of a sergeant major or
a battalion commander invitingsingle soldiers over to their
(36:45):
house for a holiday.
And they did just that.
I was like you're kidding me.
No, we're going over there.
I got to see a lot of Germanybecause I was part of a
Volksmarching club you know whatthey call Wander, part of a
Volksmarching club, what theycall Wanderer, and I'd go
(37:06):
Volksmarching every weekend,stayed in shape that way.
I'd go do 5, 10, 15, 20ks aweekend, yeah.
Or sometimes I'd go ahead anddo 60 to 80Ks a weekend Two 20s
on Saturday and another two 20son Sunday.
I had fun doing it, it was ablast.
(37:27):
I ended up doing a marathon,what they call a 45k, and the
person I went with she actuallydid one in about her best time
was about six hours.
Yeah, I did it in five and ahalf.
Yeah, I did it in five and ahalf 45 Ks.
(37:49):
If you break it down, 6.2 milesa K, is it 6.2?
I think it's 6.2 miles.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
a K, well, 5k is 3.1 miles.
Okay, so it's About 30 miles.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, I did that in five and a half hours.
Wow, I got a lot.
You know, every time I went,some folks marching, I get got
something from it.
I had pewter shot glasses, Ihad mugs, uh, I had some trains.
Um, I got met somebody overthere, got married over there,
(38:18):
adopted her two older and we hada daughter of our own.
While I was there I ended updoing what they called Mountain
Shield 1 and Mountain Shield 2,which was prepping up for Bosnia
(38:40):
.
My unit got when I was firstthere.
We got decommissioned becausethey didn't want two attack
helicopter battalions and one ofthe battalion commander of the
other one was brand new and mybattalion commander was actually
leaving.
So we went from being 4th ID to3rd ID.
(39:01):
No, we went from 4th ID tobeing 1st ID while I was over
there and they didn't want twoattack helicopter battalions, so
we decommissioned.
A lot of them went to 3-1.
I went down to 7-1, whichbecame 2-1 again.
So I went because I was atfirst in an attack helicopter
(39:23):
battalion Apaches.
But then we went to what theycall a lift helicopter
Blackhawks.
I got to fly in a 58.
I got to fly in a Blackhawk.
I refueled Apaches Galore, bothhot and cold.
Numerous field exercises Got tosee actually what a boar looks
(39:48):
like over there, and they're alot bigger than the ones here.
They're a lot more dangeroustoo, yeah, they're virtual.
So while being over there, I gottasked out to being in one unit
for one mountain shield and gottasked out to being in another
unit for mountain shield two,and then, after prepping with
(40:13):
those units, came back to myunit.
Those units never went.
My unit ended up going overthere.
My unit ended up going overthere and I actually followed.
Later, after I tried to argueand argue, my ex had the baby
(40:35):
and that's when I went over toBosnia, because one of the
soldiers over there was PCSingor ETSing out, so they needed
somebody else Went to Bosnia.
When they tell you to stay onthe sidewalk, you stay on the
sidewalk Because if you gooutside the sidewalk you may be
stepping into a lot of mines orunexploded ordnance.
(40:57):
Right, and I saw all that.
Yeah, so by this time made Imade e5.
So I was like, okay, so now I'manother, now I'm a veteran of
something else.
So how long were you in bosnia,for I was in bosnia for, I think
(41:18):
, four months okay and then youwent back to germany went back
to germany all right, and thenhow long were you in germany?
I was in germany for seven years.
Oh okay, uh, germany is one ofthose places that you could stay
there, uh-huh um, and you couldget lost in the system,
(41:41):
basically, if you just keepgoing throughout the whole
Germany.
But it was my time to PCS andI'm like, okay, it's time to go.
So we got their citizenshipdone, got their visas, and we
ended up PCSing back to theStates.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Okay, and then where did you end up?
In the States?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Well, during our pcs move, 9-11 kicked off yeah and
we ended up, uh, we ended upbeing in fort sill, oklahoma,
uh-huh.
Yeah, that was a fieldartillery unit, right?
So I was the only.
(42:25):
I was a senior patrollingsupply specialist of the
battalion, so and the battalionI went to was MLRS multiple
launch rocket systems.
Right and back in the motorpool again.
Can't do anything about it,right, that's just how it is
right that you know.
(42:46):
That's how I.
You know so I I spent most ofmy time up in the battalion with
s4 and supply, because therewas no need for me to be down in
the motor pool.
You know.
So I learned the supply system,okay, um, I was in charge of
all the fuelers of the battalion.
Even though I had, even thoughthey were in other batteries, I
(43:11):
was still in charge of them.
I've actually, you know, that'swhen we, that's when I learned
how to set up ROM, a ROM siterefuel on the move.
So basically, we'd get out infront and I learned this out in
the field We'd go ahead and setup, then all these the batteries
would come through, theheadquarters unit come through,
(43:34):
we'd be the last ones to leave.
Yeah, because we refueled thewhole battalion.
It was actually pretty fun atfirst, but then it got boring.
Then, of course, operationIraqi Freedom came about.
I've never seen such a gung-holieutenant colonel just because
(44:00):
he wants to make his full-blowncolonel.
And so we actually loaded up onthe trains, we shipped our
equipment over there, we flewover there, met our equipment
over there, we sent an advanceparty at first.
At first it was not a big thing.
(44:21):
At first it was not a big thing, and then, all of a sudden,
this battalion commander wantedto go ahead and okay, he wanted
to be the first one into Baghdad.
Uh-huh.
Well, if you know anything aboutwar doctrine, I feel artillery
fights from the back Right wegot in front of maneuver three
(44:45):
times.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, because you're there to provide support.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Uh-huh, yeah, we saw we had tanks rolling through our
perimeter.
We had you know.
It was like this is crazy.
We got up to the berm and whenthey said it's time to go, we
crossed over and I'm like mybattalion not once ran out of
(45:09):
fuel because of the effortsbetween myself and the S4.
Right, we stayed going thewhole time.
Time we it's nothing, seeing anm1, a1 abrams tank dead on the
side of the road and not in thefight because they don't have
(45:30):
any more fuel.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
That's how fast they were going and the supply lines
were two days back yeah, I don'tthink people understand how,
during that time, we outran oursupply lines in a lot of
instances, yeah, so it's veryimportant that they had those
plans ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
I had one tank commander come up to me and say,
hey, can we get some fuel so wecan get back in this?
I was like you got to go askthat captain up in front, right
there we ended up getting five,5k tankers tasked out to us and
these were National Guardmembers that were driving them
and we're like we're not gonnarun out of fuel.
(46:09):
Uh-uh, I refuse to have thisunit run out of fuel.
As we were traveling to baghdad, um, we got stuck.
We had our unit up in front thetalk, and they were actually at
the airport Baghdad Airportalready, but we weren't sure if
(46:32):
it was clear or not.
Uh-huh, because word came downthat enemy was starting to
surround and come down down.
We got stuck in an alley,nowhere to go, nothing to do.
We were there for about four,five hours.
We got there during when it wasstill light outside, and I went
(46:58):
up to the front and I startedlistening to what everybody was
saying.
I'm like we need to do a recon,because we heard that enemy was
trying to surround us.
One grenade, one rpg hits thetanker, hits the mogas pod, it
(47:20):
takes out the convoy right andfrom that moment on I'm like,
look, we need to do a recon.
After I said it, about an hourand a half went by okay, we're
gonna do a recon.
During all my other experiencesand by this time I'm in the E5,
(47:44):
I'm a leader, I'm an NCO, ncos,lead from the front I was like,
look, I am not going to sit hereand watch people go ahead and
get killed or die on my watchwhile y'all are contemplating
what to do next.
So we finally got some peopletogether to do a recon.
(48:10):
I had two captains and acivilian say okay, we're going
to go do a recon.
I basically said, like hell,you are.
They looked at me, stupid.
I'm like you're not going outthere without firepower.
What are you going to?
(48:32):
You got a 9mm, I've got an M16.
I'm qualified in a 249, a saw.
I can take that saw over therebecause I've positioned two
guards at entry points.
I can take that saw.
I can give him my 16 and I'mgoing to take that and go with
y'all.
I had the supply sergeant comeup.
(48:54):
He's like no, you're not.
I'm like, yes, I am.
And he's like no, you're not.
I'm like who's going to stop me?
I'm not letting these twocaptains and the civilian go
down that road without any kindof backup.
I'm gonna stop you.
No, you're not I.
(49:16):
And then he.
To this day, these words stickI'm not gonna let you go because
I'm not gonna be the one totell your family what happened
to you, if anything happens.
I looked at him like you're tooclose to retirement.
I'm not gonna let you gobecause you're getting ready to
retire and I'm not gonna be theone to tell your family that you
(49:37):
did something what we calleddumb at that time because he was
too close to retirement.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
So we ended up both going.
We ended up making a pact rightthen and there that we were
going to cover each other'sbacks and there's nothing nobody
can say or do about it.
I was like you don't tell myfamily, I won't tell yours, his
wife, basically, uh-huh.
(50:05):
I was like you don't tell myfamily, I won't tell yours, his
wife, basically.
And we ended up, you know, wedid that recon with those two
and we walked out and we cameback there was nobody around.
I did another recon of abuilding because I saw a red
light.
So I took three soldiers withme and did a recon.
It ended up being some kind ofa timer that puts lights on this
building or whatever.
(50:25):
So we made it to Baghdad airport.
We were getting low on oil andsupply lines were so far back,
maintenance was getting low onstuff and it's like we need to
get stuff, we need toacquisition somehow some way.
So we did a recon of theairport and we found some
(50:48):
connexes.
We're like, okay, let's see ifwe can find anything in there.
It was myself, uh, companycommander, who's a captain, uh,
an e6, and somebody else.
They went into one building,myself and the commander went
into a Connex.
We started looking around.
I ended up finding a box thatwas wet, had a wire running from
(51:15):
it.
I looked at him.
I was like, sir, with all duerespect, get the hell out.
And pushed him out.
I was like what, what, what,what, what, what?
I got a box with a wire andit's wet, get out.
I pushed him out.
We ended up telling uh, some uhspecial forces people that was
(51:37):
on the other side about what wefound over there.
Never knew what happened withit.
Uh, later on that day, he'slike, sir, you weren't going to
go ahead and go up in that,conics, and neither was I.
And you can go ahead and giveme an Article 15 for pushing you
and putting my hands on you.
That's fine.
He's like no, you did the rightthing.
When all of it was said anddone, we not once ran out of
(52:04):
fuel.
All of us came back to FortSill.
Not a single life was lostwhile over there.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
How long were you there?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
We were there.
What five months?
Okay, five and a half months.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
When you make it back to Fort Sill and what happens
from there.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
I actually I did a congressional because I was in a
non-promotable MOS and I wantedto go ahead and be CID, army
Criminal Investigation Division,right.
So I got tasked out to go workat the, or I got attached to go
work at the detachment of CIDover on Fort Sill.
(52:49):
After I did a congressional andorders came down and, oh yeah,
the battalion commander didn'tlike it.
Oh well, he actually.
I found out later on that he,as I was at Fort Sill, I ended
(53:14):
up going to BNOC BasicNon-Commissioned Officer Academy
at Fort Lee.
So I saw Fort Lee again as Iwas doing my assignment at CID.
I ended up getting myassociate's degree and I was
working on my bachelor's degreeat the same time and I was close
(53:36):
to finishing up my bachelor's.
Well, some E-8 on a boardsomewhere said, well, no, we
don't want him, even though theattachment and the MP brigade
that the attachment fell under,everybody wanted me.
So I ended up going back to myunit, which was kind of awkward
(53:59):
because nobody would talk to me.
No, everybody thought I wasalready cid and if they, all
they had to do was ask are youcid?
no, I'm not cid, I just did,yeah you're just, you know you
know, I got you know, I got youknow, tasked out over there for
six months, great, great.
So how long were you at FortSill?
(54:21):
I was at Fort Sill from 2009 tono, from 2001 to 2006.
Okay, five years.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
And then where?
So where'd you go from FortSill?
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Well, I put in I was about to put in a packet because
I'm like this is a dead-endsituation.
Right, I can't get promoted.
Okay, I can't get to the boarddue to the fact of, if you're
not field artillery, you're justput on the back burner, right,
even though it's the supportMOSs that actually support y'all
(55:02):
.
So I was in the process ofsubmitting my recruiter packet,
I came down on orders.
I was like, okay, great, wheream I going?
Because I talked to myretention NCO.
Well, you're going to Fort Lee.
Well, I looked up at Fort Lee.
(55:25):
I'm like, okay, there ispermanent party there.
I'm like, great, okay, fort Leeis boring, but, but you're
going as an instructor, cool,okay, I get to teach what I've
been taught and what I'velearned to.
You know private.
So you're really doing your job.
I'm doing my job again.
I'm like great, not a problem.
(55:46):
Well, the next day, theretention site.
So I was talking to theretention and they're like, um,
you're not going to that type ofinstructor.
Yeah, what are you talkingabout?
That's the only thing.
That's the only instructorsthat are there.
No, come to find out.
(56:07):
I got DA selected for drillsergeant, okay, and I was like
you're kidding me.
Yeah, so I PCS'd.
I went to Fort Lee first beforemy family came.
I did about 30 days or twomonths training with drill
(56:31):
sergeants there under theirwatchful eyes, before I went off
to drill sergeant school.
And, sure enough, I went backto Fort Leonard Wood for drill
sergeant school, and drillsergeant school taught a lot.
I was already a good leader,but you can become a better
(56:53):
leader.
It's all on how you phrasethings, how you word things.
Okay, uh, firm believer innever say never, right, never
thought I'd see Fort LeonardWood again after basic.
Never thought I'd see Fort Leeagain after AIT Boy, was I wrong
?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
So you end up back at Fort Lee.
So how long were you at FortLee?
Speaker 2 (57:15):
I was at Fort Lee from 2006 till I retired in 2009
.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Okay, so you retired as a drill instructor, okay,
well.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
I got off the trail right before I retired.
Okay, so you retired as a drillinstructor?
Yes, okay, well, I got off thetrail right before I retired.
Okay, all right, but I ended upgetting my bachelor's degree
and worked on my.
I was working on my master'sdegree while I was a drill
sergeant there at Fort Lee.
Oh, nice, I finished up mymaster's degree after I retired.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Okay, so talk to me about retirement.
What was it like?
Like that last time you put onthe uniform and it was time to
leave.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
It was different, you're so used to structure and
this has this getting adapted tocivilian life was like, okay,
how do I do this?
Yeah, you're not used to itanymore, right?
And then drill sergeantactually put me on the pace of
(58:22):
okay, you're going back to thecivilian world, you can go, you
know.
You can, you know, relate yourmilitary background as a drill
sergeant to working wherever youwork next in civilian life.
Well, we had, you know, ourdaughters were in Oklahoma, so
(58:45):
we moved back to Oklahoma and Iended up working at the Comanche
County Detention Center as adetention officer.
So I worked that job from 2009till 2015.
Okay, so six years, yeah, yeah,a few years.
Speaker 1 (59:04):
Well, it six years.
Yeah, yeah, a few years.
Speaker 2 (59:06):
Well, 2014.
Mm-hmm, I was like I got fed upwith what my ex was doing, so
separated.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
So at some point here you split up after you got to
Oklahoma.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah, okay, yep, okay .
We separated.
I tried to help somebody getout of a bad marriage but come
to find out they didn't want it.
So I helped them move down toTexas and I went back up or
(59:43):
moved them back down to Texasand they couldn't figure out
what they wanted.
So I, during separation, I metsomebody else down in of get to
(01:00:10):
my sister's place to see whatI'm going to do from there, kind
of regroup.
Yeah, I didn't want to go aheadand be a burning on my mom and
dad, even though they would haveloved me coming back.
I'm on my own.
I've been on my own.
If I don't like it inKentuckyentucky, I can always
move back to michigan.
Michigan still didn't.
They have very many jobs, right?
(01:00:31):
So I was like, okay, well, Iended up spending the night at
this person's house because Iwas tired and I I'm like you
know something, I'm not going tomake it.
I'll see if they'll let me stay, because I actually broke up
with them.
They let me stay.
Well, that one night stay endedup being until now, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
So this is how you ended up in Texas.
Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
You never made it to Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Nope, okay, I actually have gone there to
visit my sister once.
Yeah, I ended up working at theschool as a teacher assistant
with special need kids.
Well, I taught privates.
I can relate my training tothese kids Absolutely.
(01:01:21):
You know how to take care ofthem, what to do with this, give
them some structure that kindof yeah, yeah so I did that for
about two years and then, uh, Iwas like you know, you're not
making anything doing this andthe only way to make something
in the education system isbecome a teacher, right?
Well, the only thing I couldteach was either military
(01:01:45):
science, law enforcement or, uh,criminal law or physical
education.
Well, I saw the educationsystem and I'm like, if I'm a
teacher, you're not going totell me what to do, what to give
a kid a grade, and I'm sorry,no, if they don't put out, if
(01:02:09):
you give them ample enoughchances, they don't put out,
then they fail.
If you're playing simple, Right.
You know, I understand theconcept of never leave a kid
behind, but if that kid doesn'twant to put the effort in, well,
I'm not going to put the effortin.
I'm not letting him behind.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
I could have gone and taught at college.
I'm like I really don't want to, because you still have to
follow a curriculum, but atleast you don't have somebody
telling you what to do as far aswhat grade to give, right, I
actually I didn't see it, butheard firsthand that a teacher
gave a student a failing gradeand the administration changed
the grade.
I'm like, so that tells me youdon't trust your teachers and
(01:02:52):
you, yeah, and it's all aboutfinancial goals, and I'm like,
nope, not going to do this.
So teaching wasn't for you no.
Yeah.
So I moved over to Walmart.
I ended up stocking, working instocking produce, the produce
department, the meat departmentand then also in the bakery, and
(01:03:12):
sometimes I went into the deli,but they kept me more in the
produce and meat department, didthat for a while and then I
moved up to asset protection.
Asset protection is where youcatch thieves.
(01:03:33):
I'm like, oh, right up my alley, I can do this, great, but
there's still rules that you'vegot to follow.
And all of a sudden, at thistime then you started having
these school shootings come up,these store shootings.
So they basically were trainingtheir people.
(01:03:57):
If you know an active shooter,you go run and you go hide.
Run, hide, bite and we're usedto shoot, move, communicate
that's not what my trainingdictates, right, my training
dictates completely somethingdifferent.
I'm not gonna run, I'm notgonna hide, and by the time law
enforcement gets there, I'mprobably going to have this
individual subdued, if not takendown and de-armed.
(01:04:21):
And some people didn't like mytheory of thinking and I'm like
I've got the background, I cantake somebody out with no
problem.
I don't need a gun to take themout.
There's enough weapons inWalmart that I can use and you
blend in.
You know, throw something thatway.
(01:04:41):
They're going to go that way.
Look, you go the other way,right, so shoot, move,
communicate Well, get theirattention over that way.
They're going to go that way.
Look, you go the other way,right, so shoot, move,
communicate well, get theirattention over that way.
You move around them and thenyou take care of them.
And some people didn't like myway of thinking on that right.
Your philosophy didn't coincidewith their that's because you've
(01:05:01):
never been in the military.
You don't have a militarymindset, right?
I've got a military mindsetEverywhere I go.
Where's the exit?
Everywhere I go.
What will I do if this happens?
What will I do if this happens,if somebody comes up to me with
(01:05:25):
a weapon?
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
what am I going to do to them?
It's not going to be me.
It really goes all the way backto sitting on that berm
watching all of that happen,starting to think about what do
I do, what are yourcontingencies?
So you?
This is carried through all theway up until this point.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
So being a veteran of foreign wars has taught me
quite a bit on what to do incase of this.
Right, I left Walmart and Iended up being armed security at
a hospital which I am currentlyat now, okay, and I have the
medical staff and the fellowofficers I work with.
(01:06:00):
They think highly of a lot ofus, work with they.
They think highly of a lot ofus because, if something happens
, patients being unrulybehavioral patients granted,
these are patients not allowedto touch them.
They suffer from dementia oralzheimer's or any of the you
know, any type of medicalcondition that they may have.
(01:06:24):
Well, for that split second,they know exactly what they're
doing.
I work night shift, 12-hourshift.
I love my job and a lot of themedical staff there love, you
know, love me working.
If something happens, they cancall me, call you know, call on
(01:06:46):
me, without calling some codefor everybody to come up there.
Hey, can you do this Sureenough?
Well, I'm going to take care ofit, so they can count on you.
Yeah, yeah.
And they can count on.
A couple of other officers thatI work with at nighttime Love
(01:07:06):
the job.
I can relate a lot of myexperiences to it.
You know I'm always like whathappens if this Right, right, if
there's a?
You know, I've had people comeup to me and say, basically you
would actually take somebody'slife and I'm like, let me ask
(01:07:31):
you this would you like to beyour life or their life?
Well, my life.
I'm like there's your answer.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Not that you want to, but you have to do what you
have to do right it's either youor them.
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Yeah, okay, and it's not going to be me, right?
Um, I've been trained in waysthat only military veterans or
military personnel wouldactually understand.
People that have been workingcivilian life their whole life.
They may not understand some ofthe training that we go through
(01:08:09):
.
A prime example my sister'swedding.
Apparently, some people weregetting drunk in the parking lot
, mouthed off to a couple kids.
Well, these kids ended upthrowing some rocks and I walked
outside.
I'm like, okay, where'd they go?
(01:08:32):
Well, they went down that way.
So I started walking down thatway and my sister came up.
She's an MP, or she was an MPin the National Guard Reserve no
reserve and I had somebody else.
He came up drunk.
I got your back.
(01:08:56):
I'm like you, drunk as a skunk.
You don't have my back.
You have no idea what I'mcapable of doing.
Go back over there.
I literally told him that I'mcapable of doing.
Go back over there.
I literally told him that heactually left and went back over
there.
I'm like you idiot.
Um, my sister came up.
It's like what you're gonna doif you catch him?
I'm like I'm not gonna catchhim.
(01:09:18):
They're long gone by now rightyou know, there were some
railroad tracks there.
They're long gone.
It's dark outside.
I ain't gonna to catch them,but if they see somebody
starting to follow where theywere at, they're not going to
come back either.
So I don't look for trouble andI don't find trouble.
Sometimes trouble finds you.
(01:09:40):
You just got to know what to doand how to handle it.
Right, right, and myexperiences have taught me that
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
I'd like to shift gears a little bit.
Are you still married to thegal from Texas, Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
we're not married.
Uh, we're engaged, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
So we're not married.
Yes, we're still together.
Very good.
And what are your, what areyour kids doing now?
Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Uh, I know my oldest daughter.
She is working oklahoma statebureau of investigation in
oklahoma.
Uh, the middle daughter is ingermany.
She married a military member.
Um, what she's doing over there, I don't know.
Yeah, the youngest daughter Idon't have any contact with
because of my ex.
(01:10:22):
Okay, um, hopefully she'llfinally come around and yeah
yeah, that would be nice.
um, I'm assuming, or um guessing, that she's working in with
animals.
Um, last thing I heard is thatthey were raising, or what's the
(01:10:46):
word.
I'm looking for Not raising,but breeding.
Thank you, rottweilers.
Okay, so she wanted to be aveterinarian or work with
animals?
So that's the last thing Iheard.
Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Well, hopefully she's doing that.
Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Oh, yeah, so do I.
Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
So we've covered a lot of ground.
You've done a lot of things inyour life.
I just really have one morequestion for you, okay, and that
is someone listening to this.
Years from now maybe, whenneither one of us are here
anymore, what message would youlike them to take away from this
conversation and really how youlived your life?
(01:11:22):
This?
Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
conversation and really how you lived your life.
Listen to those that raised you, follow Well, I'm not going to
say follow, but kind of lookinto their footsteps, walk in
their footsteps.
Follow your instincts.
It's your gutting, yourinstincts, in which I'm a firm
(01:11:46):
believer, in both of them,that's going to get you through
life and get you through hardtimes.
If you second guess your gut,you're going to second guess
your life.
I've had an enjoyable life.
I've had an enjoyable life.
I've had great experiences.
(01:12:07):
If you do join the military,listen to your veterans.
Your veterans are going to getyou through whatever is to come.
I've had lots of veterans thatI've actually listened to and
(01:12:30):
they got me through quite a bitand you know we got through each
other.
I work with quite a bit ofveterans and I like listening to
their stories.
They like listening to mine.
One of those veterans he was sfduring Vietnam.
(01:12:50):
I know exactly what he does,even though he doesn't say it,
because as a veteran, you've gotthat same mindset.
I came in on the tail end ofthe old army and the beginning
of the new army.
This new way can't stand.
It don't like.
(01:13:10):
It never will Needs to go backto the old way.
Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
All right, well, thanks for sharing that.
Thanks for taking time out on aThursday morning to talk with
me.
You're welcome.
Today is Thursday, may 22nd 2025.
We're talking with KevinJustice, who served the United
States Army.
So good morning, kevin.
Good morning.
It's a pleasure to be here inbeautiful West Branch today, by
the way.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I don't know about so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
It's a little.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What do they say?
So beautiful?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
A little questionable there, huh, uh-huh, all right.
Well, we'll get started, andreally the first question I have
is when and where were you born?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was born April 27, 1971, in Detroit, michigan, grew
up in St Clair Shores, michigan.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Okay, so how was it that you?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
were born in Detroit I believe it was Detroit Mercy,
uh-huh but then we moved to StClair Shores.
Okay, and so so did youbasically grow up in St Clair
Shores then?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, I grew up in St Clair Shores, all right.
Well, tell me a little bitabout childhood.
You have brothers and sisters.
I've got one brother and twosisters, okay, and where do you
fall in the pecking order withall that?
I'm the oldest one, okay, soyou're the oldest child.
I have an older sister whothinks she's my boss, even still
today.
Is that kind of how you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Not so much so so, yeah, so tell me about being a
kid at St Clair Shores.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, grew up in St Clair Shores, went to a
parochial school, uh, st IsaacJogues.
From first grade through eighthgrade played basketball, played
baseball.
I started baseball when I wasyoung, in first grade, and
continued all the way outthrough eighth grade, including
(01:42):
the Catholic Youth Organizationorganization elite, which is a
spring league, then playedsummer ball.
I started basketball in fifthgrade and played basketball all
the way out to 12th grade ofhigh school.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, so you're in parochial school up through like
middle school.
Then yes, all right.
Was this still at a time whennuns would hit your fingers with
the ruler, or?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
any of that?
We didn't.
I had one nun as a teacher andthat was second grade.
She liked to flip desks.
Oh, so I'm not sure about thehitting of the ruler, but I know
what you're talking about.
Flipping a desk will definitelyget your attention.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, so what was it like transitioning from
parochial school then intopublic school?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So what was it like transitioning from parochial
school then into public school?
A lot of my classmates from theparochial school went to the
public school, but I knew someof them from playing baseball in
summer league with them.
But other than that, it wasn'tthat bad, okay.
And how was school for you?
School wasn't that bad, okay.
And how was school for you?
(02:44):
School wasn't that bad.
I mean, I didn't excel like Iprobably should have, but I
found out later that, yeah, I'mpretty smart.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have to be outside of the
school setting to find out howsmart you really are Not
everybody excels sitting in aclassroom.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, my brother is very similar.
Didn't do well in school at all, but really excelled when he
got out, so, yeah, so anythingfrom school or any memories from
school that you'd like to share, anything kind of stick out in
your mind.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
One thing is that I was on a baseball team that my
dad coached and we wentundefeated and took the
championship, and I was analternate for the All-Star team
that year Wow, so if I could doit over again, I probably would
have stayed in baseball insteadof going to basketball.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was really good athitting, but my defense was yeah
(03:49):
okay.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, you said your dad coached that team.
Tell me a little bit about yourdad well.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
He did a lot for us growing up.
He passed away six years agodue to cancer.
So I get involved with peoplethat have cancer.
I have a friend that lives inColorado, that's part of a
(04:18):
cancer group, who's also aveteran.
She served in the same branchas my brother did.
I became friends with her andshe did a lot as far as cancer
awareness.
He taught us the do's and thedon'ts.
So did my mom.
I'm not going to say theydidn't.
(04:44):
Let us get away with what kidsget away with now.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Right, there was some accountability in your house.
Yes, yeah, what did your dad dofor a living?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He worked at GM Okay Computer data processor.
He was also a vet.
He served two years in theUnited States Army.
Um, he went to school, or hewent during the, or he was in
basic during Vietnam.
Uh, from what the stories hetold us is that he was.
(05:17):
He came down on orders twice togo to Nam and they rescinded
his orders both times due to hisjob.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Uh huh, so Okay.
And then, what about your mom?
What are some of your memoriesof your mom?
She was a lunch lady at theschool so you didn't get away
with anything at school, did you?
You couldn't really get awaywith anything at school, not?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
not at grade school, or and not as synagic jokes.
Yeah, she also told us, right,you know, taught us right and
wrong, what to do, what not todo, if we would get in trouble,
if they and they would alwaysfind out if we did something
(05:56):
wrong, right, so you couldn'tget anything past them yeah well
, I always told my kids nomatter what you can think of
doing, I've done it and beencaught doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So good luck.
Oh yeah, that was kind of myspiel to them.
So you cruise along throughhigh school.
You switched from baseball tobasketball.
I'm assuming you graduated highschool then?
Yes, okay, and then so whathappened after graduation?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well, after graduation, I didn't have very
good grades, so I didn't seemyself as a college type, so I
joined the military.
Okay, and that was.
I graduated in May of 89, and Ijoined in September of 89.
All right.
And then why the Army?
I tried the Air Force.
They told me I had to wait sixmonths in order to reapply again
(06:45):
.
I tried the Navy.
The Navy didn't.
I didn't like any of the jobsthat the Navy offered and I
wasn't going to go into theMarines, You're right.
So I joined the Army.
The jobs that I was offered?
None of them felt appealingexcept patrolling a supply
(07:07):
specialist, Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And that's what you.
So, then, that's what youcontracted for.
Uh-huh, all right, yes, now you.
So where'd you go to basictraining?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I went to basic training, fort Leonard Wood.
Oh, okay, yeah, fort Lost inthe Woods, very familiar with
Fort Leonard.
Wood.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
They have a great German restaurant just outside
the gates, so I don't know if itwas there when you were there.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I was there, I wouldn't know.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, you probably just were.
So tell me about basic trainingOnce you get there and you hop
off that bus.
What was that like?
We?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
were at reception for the weekend, because we arrived
on the weekend, so it wasn't.
I mean, granted, we had dutiesthat we had to do, but there was
a lot of downtime becausenothing was open, right, um.
And then all of a sudden wewere like okay, here comes the
week, so I know a lot of us aregoing to be going out.
(07:58):
Uh, from what my memory serves,we saw one drill sergeant and
he didn't say a word.
We got on what they calledcattle trucks and once we got on
the cattle trucks, he stood atthe door and that was it.
As soon as we got to ourcompany, oh yeah, it's like all
(08:20):
hell broke loose, right, fortLeonard Wood at that time was
still all male, so we didn't seeany women in the military at
all.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, because everything was still pretty well
segregated between male andfemale at that time.
So what are some of the thingsyou remember most about basic
training?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Some of the things I remember most was physical
training was pretty difficultand hard at times.
We had really good drillsergeants my platoon.
We had one private whose one ofhis relatives passed away and
(09:06):
when he came back he wasn't thesame.
We had another one that justwasn't the same.
He tried to go AWOL.
What else can I remember aboutFort Leonard Wood?
Oh, I've never seen somebody goto sleep in a push up position
until then or in other positionsthat the drill sergeant put
(09:28):
them in.
Or one of our drill sergeantsgot all the platoon in one bay
and they took this other privateover the same private into
another bay and smoked them infull mop four gear.
Yeah, uh, that's a great weightloss program, um, but the
(09:48):
kicker about the whole thing isthat we ended up getting honor
platoon uh-huh we had first time, we had best pt average, we had
best scores qualification, wehad best overall score of end of
cycle testing.
And I mean we went from.
They have phases white, blue,red and basic training was nine
(10:12):
weeks long and now I think it'slike 12 or 13 weeks long, but we
stayed in white phase for thelongest while the other platoons
went into blue phase.
We got into blue phase and allof a sudden we were going into
red phase.
So, yeah, we stayed in whitefor a while, but we still ended
up getting on our platoon.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's pretty amazing .
What a great honor to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Did your parents or family come down on your
graduation?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yes, my mom and dad came down for graduation.
Okay, how was that?
It was pretty good.
Yeah, yes, my mom and dad camedown for graduation.
Okay, how was that?
It was pretty good.
They've never been to that partof Missouri, I guess, so
neither have I.
We didn't have very much time.
Okay, graduation, and then Iwas off the next day to Fort Lee
, virginia, to do my MOStraining.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Okay, and so no break in between you weren't right to
AIT.
No, I went straight to AIT.
Okay, so tell me a little aboutAIT.
How was?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
that we got to AIT and we ended up being there on
the weekend due to the fact thatwe graduated basic right before
Thanksgiving.
So we were like, okay, so wegot in, we were in a holding
company and we didn't knowexactly what companies we were
(11:30):
going to until the followingweek, so we didn't have drill
sergeants in this holdingcompany, but then we knew they
were around, so we really didn't, yeah.
So it was kind of very similarto basic training that when you
first got there just kind ofyou're there we, uh, I got to
(11:50):
hotel company uh at fort lee,which was at that time 77 fox
trots, and that's when westarted seeing females and we
were like we didn't see these inbasic okay.
Um, we were kind of shocked atfirst but then everybody was
(12:12):
like okay, you know, females hadtheir own platoon.
I was in another platoon,didn't really see our drill
sergeant that much because hehad another class, and later on
down the road I found out whyyou didn't see a drill sergeant
that that much, because he hadanother class.
And later on down the road Ifound out why you didn't see a
drill sergeant that that muchbecause they had different
classes and they had to takecare of these classes graduating
(12:32):
before they get to the nextclass.
And so Fort Lee wasn't too badhow long were you there?
I was at Fort Lee from 89 to 90.
I was November to April.
(12:54):
Okay, I think it's 13 weeks, 14weeks long.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And then, what was your first duty station after
that?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, after I got done with Fort Lee lee, I went
on to fort dix, new jersey, as aadvanced skill identifier
driving trucks.
Due to my mos of 77 fox, we hadto learn how to drive trucks,
okay.
So I learned how to drive.
A could be a tanker, 5k tanker,a semi, uh, five ton.
(13:25):
So that was actually pretty fun.
That was a little bit morelenient.
We were considered.
We weren't considered permanentparty, but we weren't
considered in training, eitherright or we weren't considered.
So we were kind of sort of inbetween.
There were drill sergeants, butthey were a little bit more
lenient.
We had free time on theweekends.
(13:46):
We didn't have GI parties likeyou did at BASIC or AIT, so that
wasn't too bad there and thatwas only like five weeks long,
okay.
And then from there my firstduty station was Okinawa, japan.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Okay, how'd you like Okinawa?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Oh, I loved Okinawa.
I actually got to learn my job.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah.
So you really like many timespeople like get training, get a
job, and then, because of howthings work out, they end up
doing something else.
But you actually got to do yourjob.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.
In Okinawa, what kind of stuffdid you do?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
We supplied.
My battalion, supplied thewhole island, along with the 7th
Fleet, with fuel.
Okay, it was a fixed pipelinesystem, so we worked on tank
farms.
I got to learn from theOkinawans that worked on the
tank farms how to go ahead andsend fuel through the lines,
(14:44):
test fuel or get fuel out, howto scrape a line, how to go
ahead and receive fuel fromships from a mooring pier, how
to inspect the ships.
Right before I left Okinawa, Iwas trained to be a ship
inspector While I was at OkinawaDesert was trained to be a ship
(15:05):
inspector While I was atOkinawa.
Desert Storm, desert Shieldkicked off, or Desert Shield,
desert Storm.
There were 12 of us that camedown on orders because they were
expecting a lot more casualtiesthan what actually transpired
it was a very quick war.
(15:26):
Yes, that initial yeah, we 12 ofus, we actually we had three
volunteer.
Those three volunteers ended upgoing with special force
special forces groups, or unitsto support special forces groups
, then units to support specialforces groups.
Then I guess they saw that hey,there's an overabundance over
(15:49):
there, we need more of them.
So 12 more of us got orders togo over there.
We left Okinawa, we went toFort Knox for training.
Yes, I got to see Fort Knoxagain.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So you went from Japan to Fort Knox for training
and then you Desert Shield,desert Storm.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Okay, once I got over there I had orders for 18th
Airborne Corps.
But we all had orders for 18thAirborne Corps, but then, once
we got there, they split us up.
I ended up going myself andanother buddy went to 3rd ACR,
3rd Armored Cav Regiment.
Once we got there I was withthe transport unit.
(16:36):
He ended up going to one of theline units.
Okay, I stayed 10 kilometersoff the border the whole time
until after the actually, afterthe war is when we went over and
cleaned up quite a bit of theline company's messes.
I know all about Pipeline Road.
(16:58):
I know all about Log Base,charlie, because we traveled to
it constantly, charlie, becausewe traveled to it constantly.
30 ACR was part of that sweepthat came down from the north.
Yes, I saw all the maneuveringelements going through the
desert, watched them go through.
(17:18):
I know exactly where theMarines were encountered at Half
Arrow, bottom.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
What was that like to see all that going on.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
As an 18-year-old, 19-year-old At first scary, yeah
.
But then you start thinkingit's like, okay, what to do next
?
What happens if this?
What happens if this?
What to do next?
What happens if this?
(17:50):
What happens if this you'reused?
You start getting a mindset ofwhat you're going to do if this
happens, right, um, what willyou know?
What will you do if you seethis?
You know, as a as as young aswe were, now there were veterans
with us from Panama or otherplaces.
I mean, in basic, our drillsergeants scared us to bits and
(18:12):
pieces because Panama kicked off, right, and they basically said
that you're not going to yourjob, you're going down to Panama
just because.
And I'm like, oh lovely, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right.
Looking back on that, thatdidn't make any sense right?
No, at the time you're like ohboy here we go.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But being a veteran of a foreign war that young, it
doesn't really hit you.
Once we got back to KhobarTowers we were all trying to
hook back up.
We were all trying to hook backup and it didn't hit me until
(18:48):
actually if I back up a littlebit at Cobar Towers about six of
us met back up again.
We were trying to go back toour base in Okinawa.
Now, these are all statesideunits so they didn't want no
part of us, so we kind of gotthrough as outcasts.
So we hooked up and the e5 thenwent with us.
(19:11):
We finally met up with him atcobar towers.
Well, he had family at travis.
So we were like okay, if wecould get to travis airboys air
force base in california we cancatch a hop to okinawa.
Now, mind you, we brought ourown weapons with us, right?
So we couldn't, you know, wecouldn't leave our weapons.
(19:33):
So once we got a hop because wefinally got a hop to Westover
Air Force Base, I think inMassachusetts we're like okay,
(19:53):
not a problem, once we getstateside we can hop.
Yeah.
Well, luckily for me, I was oneof the very few that kept orders
, uh, bringing us over there.
So once we got to air forcebase and this is where hit me
the most was that I was havingkids come up asking me for their
(20:16):
auto, for my autograph.
And then I heard I hear LeeGreenwood song, constantly proud
to be an American, and that'swhen it hit.
I'm a veteran of a foreign war.
Right From that moment on I waslike I can't believe this.
You know, once we got toWestover Air Force Base and we
(20:39):
saw all this and all thewelcoming and Vietnam vets
welcoming us back, I was likeawesome.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, I think we got treated pretty well when we came
in.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, a lot better than Vietnam vets, and I'm glad
to see that they're actuallystarting to get what due to them
.
Absolutely so, once we werethere, we had to put our weapons
in their armory.
Well, we were able to get intouch with our battalion back in
Okinawa and they basically sayyou can come back on the same
(21:11):
orders you flew over there on.
Okay, does anybody have a setof orders?
Yeah, I still got a set.
Well, one slight problem westill had weapons, and we were
able to fly on civilian aircraftthen, and they're like well,
(21:32):
this is what we can do.
Luckily, I had an extra duffelbag that wasn't packed all the
way.
So we broke down our weapons,put the bolts in one, put the
weapons in the other, and wewere allowed to carry them on
the airplane and we flew backcivilian style all the way back
to Okinawa.
Oh nice, so long flight, though.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, that's not a short flight at all, so how long
did you stay in Okinawa?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That was two years Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And then where from?
There?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I went to Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah Georgia.
Uh-huh and let's see, I gotthere in 92.
As soon as I got there I wastasked out to go to another unit
for their training exercisethat was just coming up on Fort
(22:22):
Stewart.
I got tasked out quite a bitwhen I got there, Probably
within the first six months Iwas there.
I think I saw the field fourmonths out of that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And so this was different too, because now
you're refueling vehicles andaircraft.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Actually, we weren't doing any kind of refueling.
Oh, okay, we were in aquartermaster battalion but
working in the motor pool doingany kind of refueling.
Okay, I was in a.
We were in a quartermasterbattalion but working in the
motor pool.
Okay, now we had an airfieldand we had a platoon or we had a
.
You know, some people work inthe airfield but everybody had
to start in the motor pool atfirst.
Right, we also had a tank farmand I started in the motor pool.
(23:04):
Hurricane andrew hit, so we gotuh deployed down florida for
hurricane andrew.
I was driving what they call ans&p trailer, five ton s&p
trailer, so I was doing a lot ofline hauling with that uh trash
or you know, you know any kindof equipment that we could set
up a what they call a ROM siteor a rope.
(23:28):
You site refuel on the movesite and didn't really get to do
my job.
I was more okay.
Preventive maintenance, checksand services constantly.
Well, if you know anythingabout Georgia Georgia's hot
during the summertime- yes, itis.
(23:51):
So I got stationed there.
Well then, hurricane Andrew hit.
We spent 30 days down in MiamiHomestead.
Got to go on a cruise to theBahamas.
That is R&R.
Got to see the Miami Dolphincheerleaders Came back while or
(24:17):
after we got back.
Somalia kicked off OperationRestore Hope.
Yeah.
And we got deployed over there.
Okay, I don't remember the year, it was probably 93, beginning
of 93.
January 93, february 93.
We're over in Somalia doingwater, because as a fueler you
(24:47):
can also do water.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, just basically transferring liquids.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, there's a little bit more stuff to water,
but at the time there wasn't anywater supply units available in
the United States Army, so webasically used the same kind of
equipment, just a little bitdifferent, but not too much
different.
Okay, so we got deployed overto Operation Restore Hope.
(25:16):
Somalia was an eye-opener.
Somalia was.
If you could find a place onthis earth that was the
rottenest place in the world.
That was probably one of them.
I know there's probably otherplaces, but Somalia was an
(25:39):
experience.
I got tasked out to being adriver, driving around a
lieutenant and a civilian to goahead and set up sites or go to
meetings or whatever, allthroughout Mogadishu.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Not a safe place either.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
No, it's not.
Yeah, as a driver, you don'thave the luxury of trying to
protect yourself.
Well, I did.
I ended up getting an end of acot and I had a metal pole right
next to me just in case becauseI couldn't use my weapon and
rules of engagement over therewe were.
(26:21):
Our hands were tied Right.
Weapon and rules of engagementover there we were, our hands
were tied right.
Um, but I've had.
I had people try to come up andtry to take stuff off of me and
threaten me with knives andeverything else.
Had this one guy come up and assoon as he come up to the
window, I took that metal poleand just did like whack, like
that.
Luckily he got his hands out ofthe way before I could get his
(26:41):
hands.
He cursed me out left and rightIn this cut V we had people
trying to hop in the back, tryto take stuff out.
So you had to watch your backwhile you were traveling.
Yeah, an incident happenedwhile we were going from the
(27:03):
city because I was leading aconvoy.
We're going by the Newport andan incident happened with the
Marines there.
We're like we're going down tothe old port because that's
where we were stationed, orthat's where we had our unit, at
right, next to the Italians.
And well, the Marines told uswell, if you go down this road
(27:26):
and then take a right on thisroad, you'll be out of the
danger zone.
Okay, we listened to what theysaid.
We took the left.
Okay, we're out of danger.
Then, all of a sudden, we tooka right.
Now I have five Humvees or'reout of danger.
Then, all of a sudden, we tooka right.
Now I have five Humvees, orfive, five tons following me.
(27:47):
When we took the right and Itold the leader, I was like, sir
, this isn't good.
They put us right in the middleof this thing.
No, we'll be okay, we'll beokay.
No, sir, now, mind you, I'monly an E4 at that time, a
specialist Right, and as soon aswe started driving, all you
(28:11):
started seeing were rocks flying.
The second lieutenant went inand said what I want you to do
is step on the gas and haul, getthrough this.
Well, I stepped on the gas.
Well, I was smart enoughbecause I didn't want to get hit
by a glass or a rock.
Right, I put my Kevlar upagainst the window, driving like
(28:34):
this, and I just floored it.
Luckily, I didn't breakanything on the vehicle, had a
rock hit the hood, had a rockhit the back window, had a rock
hit the the hood, had a rock hitthe back window, had had a rock
hit the mirror on my side.
So, yeah, I was close on beingrocked at that time and we made
(28:55):
it through.
But we had what they call airgunners on the back of these
five tons mm-hmm.
Well, they got in, they gotdown and they just started
shooting up in the air.
Go ahead and stop these peoplefrom throwing rocks.
We didn't know until later whathappened and apparently one of
the Marines shot one of theSomalians and, yeah, all hell
(29:16):
broke loose then.
So once we got down there, ourunit, our platoons, kind of sort
of switched.
We went from doing water tostart doing fuel and water.
So we ended up moving oneplatoon back to the airport to
(29:40):
go ahead and start doing waterand also doing fuel at the same
time, because I guess one of theunits and I don't remember who
it was they were leaving sonobody was doing fuel.
Well, that's our job, we knowhow to do it.
Yeah, I ended up.
I ended up going with anotherunit over and being in charge of
(30:02):
a marshalling area that was onkind of sort of the back side of
Mogadishu.
It used to be a five-star hotelI actually saw a picture of it
when it was actually good.
Yeah, we had kids try to comein.
It was a marshalling area forall units coming from the inner
cities to leave in the country.
(30:24):
Somebody I went to basic with Iactually saw there.
Oh, so I didn't see hardlyanybody.
I went to basic with after basicor AIT with after I left AIT
and ASI.
We all went to different unitsWow, to different units.
I actually saw him there.
(30:45):
And while we were there, well,big cement wall surrounding this
whole area with different guardposts up and didn't stop them
from coming in, so you had to beon your toes.
They'd go ahead and chip awayat the cement and make a hole
(31:06):
and get it bigger and bigger andbigger, go in there and steal
stuff either.
You know whatever they couldsteal.
If you hear, if you heard azing coming, you better be
ducking because they hadslingshots and they were very,
very accurate with slingshots.
Oh, in those, that zing thatyou heard was a rock flying at
(31:29):
you.
I did some, you know.
One second All right, go ahead.
(31:49):
Rules of engagement over there,they weren't all that great.
We were under one command whilewe were there.
Then NATO took, or the UN tookover.
So rules of engagement evenactually went worse.
We couldn't do any kind of harmto anybody, even if we were at
(32:13):
harm.
And did I fire my weapon atanybody?
No.
Did I point it at somebody?
Yes, and I didn't care how oldthey were.
It's either your life or mylife and it's not going to be my
(32:34):
life.
So we had some soldiers getinjured in that marshalling area
because of these rocks comeflying.
We had them get injured becauseof other stuff that came flying
.
So I wasn't going to take achance.
They knew exactly if you didsomething, as in raise your
(32:55):
weapon up, they stopped throwingrocks and you can say these
were kids or adults, anywherebetween the ages of five and up.
Well, they don't have anything.
So they were trying to get foodor whatever.
We had one platoon that wasdown the street, about a mile
(33:15):
and a half to two miles down thestreet.
They were right across from youknow kitty corner, from one of
Adid's houses, and they weregetting shot at.
Every night I found out I'mlike no, uh-uh, I'm not playing
this game.
So it was our turn to leave andwe got back to Georgia.
(33:39):
About two weeks later we foundout the Pakistanis got ambushed
on October 21 Road.
Well, I know exactly where thatroad is at.
I traveled it constantly.
It was like two miles down fromwhere one of our platoons was
working out of Right.
Well, I was downtown inSavannah at a club.
(34:04):
Next thing I see are localpolice, local law enforcement,
coming in.
Police coming in, saying allmilitary personnel need to
report back to their units.
Okay, I get back to my unit,and, sure enough, that's when
the Blackhawks went down.
Now this was probably about amonth after we left.
And, sure enough, that's whenthe Blackhawks went down.
(34:25):
This was probably about a monthafter we left.
They were asking for volunteersor we asked if you know, are
they taking anybody over there?
24th ID got alerted before theychanged it to I think it's 3rd
ID now, but 24th got alerted andwe supplied 24th along with the
(34:56):
ranger bat that was on HunterArmy Airfield.
Once 24th got alerted, 12 of usvolunteered to go with 24th
over there to go get our peopleout.
I know exactly where thoseBlackhawks went down.
I traveled the city constantly.
Yeah, I was one of the 12.
They said, no, you're not goingover there because y'all are
going to take matters into yourown hands.
(35:16):
And we were like, yes, we are,because those are our people.
Rules of our hands were tied.
Our hands are not going to betied.
And from that moment on I'mlike this is the second war or
second second conflict that I'ma veteran of.
No, I'm not.
(35:38):
I'm not leaving any more fallencomrades or fallen people
behind.
They told us no, so we didn'tgo.
Well, I was there from 92 to 93.
November of 93, I PCS'd toGermany because I re-enlisted
(35:58):
for Germany.
That's when I actually got backto doing my job again.
I was an aviation unit over inGermany and I learned quite a
bit again.
Yeah, I loved aviation.
Aviators take care, it doesn'tmatter if you're a crew chief,
if you're a pilot, they willtake care of their own Right?
(36:19):
Yeah, they take care of you.
They need you.
Mm-hmm, they're you know, we'retheir own Right.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, they take care of you.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
They need you, mm-hmm , they're, you know, we're their
bread and butter.
They can't go nowhere, mm-hmm.
So I had a great battalioncommander.
I had a great battalionsergeant major.
When I first got there, I neverthought of a sergeant major or
a battalion commander invitingsingle soldiers over to their
(36:45):
house for a holiday.
And they did just that.
I was like you're kidding me.
No, we're going over there.
I got to see a lot of Germanybecause I was part of a
Volksmarching club you know whatthey call Wander, part of a
Volksmarching club, what theycall Wanderer, and I'd go
(37:06):
Volksmarching every weekend,stayed in shape that way.
I'd go do 5, 10, 15, 20ks aweekend, yeah.
Or sometimes I'd go ahead anddo 60 to 80Ks a weekend Two 20s
on Saturday and another two 20son Sunday.
I had fun doing it, it was ablast.
(37:27):
I ended up doing a marathon,what they call a 45k, and the
person I went with she actuallydid one in about her best time
was about six hours.
Yeah, I did it in five and ahalf.
Yeah, I did it in five and ahalf 45 Ks.
(37:49):
If you break it down, 6.2 milesa K, is it 6.2?
I think it's 6.2 miles.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
a K, well, 5k is 3.1 miles.
Okay, so it's About 30 miles.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, I did that in five and a half hours.
Wow, I got a lot.
You know, every time I went,some folks marching, I get got
something from it.
I had pewter shot glasses, Ihad mugs, uh, I had some trains.
Um, I got met somebody overthere, got married over there,
(38:18):
adopted her two older and we hada daughter of our own.
While I was there I ended updoing what they called Mountain
Shield 1 and Mountain Shield 2,which was prepping up for Bosnia
(38:40):
.
My unit got when I was firstthere.
We got decommissioned becausethey didn't want two attack
helicopter battalions and one ofthe battalion commander of the
other one was brand new and mybattalion commander was actually
leaving.
So we went from being 4th ID to3rd ID.
(39:01):
No, we went from 4th ID tobeing 1st ID while I was over
there and they didn't want twoattack helicopter battalions, so
we decommissioned.
A lot of them went to 3-1.
I went down to 7-1, whichbecame 2-1 again.
So I went because I was atfirst in an attack helicopter
(39:23):
battalion Apaches.
But then we went to what theycall a lift helicopter
Blackhawks.
I got to fly in a 58.
I got to fly in a Blackhawk.
I refueled Apaches Galore, bothhot and cold.
Numerous field exercises Got tosee actually what a boar looks
(39:48):
like over there, and they're alot bigger than the ones here.
They're a lot more dangeroustoo, yeah, they're virtual.
So while being over there, I gottasked out to being in one unit
for one mountain shield and gottasked out to being in another
unit for mountain shield two,and then, after prepping with
(40:13):
those units, came back to myunit.
Those units never went.
My unit ended up going overthere.
My unit ended up going overthere and I actually followed.
Later, after I tried to argueand argue, my ex had the baby
(40:35):
and that's when I went over toBosnia, because one of the
soldiers over there was PCSingor ETSing out, so they needed
somebody else Went to Bosnia.
When they tell you to stay onthe sidewalk, you stay on the
sidewalk Because if you gooutside the sidewalk you may be
stepping into a lot of mines orunexploded ordnance.
(40:57):
Right, and I saw all that.
Yeah, so by this time made Imade e5.
So I was like, okay, so now I'manother, now I'm a veteran of
something else.
So how long were you in bosnia,for I was in bosnia for, I think
(41:18):
, four months okay and then youwent back to germany went back
to germany all right, and thenhow long were you in germany?
I was in germany for seven years.
Oh okay, uh, germany is one ofthose places that you could stay
there, uh-huh um, and you couldget lost in the system,
(41:41):
basically, if you just keepgoing throughout the whole
Germany.
But it was my time to PCS andI'm like, okay, it's time to go.
So we got their citizenshipdone, got their visas, and we
ended up PCSing back to theStates.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Okay, and then where did you end up?
In the States?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Well, during our pcs move, 9-11 kicked off yeah and
we ended up, uh, we ended upbeing in fort sill, oklahoma,
uh-huh.
Yeah, that was a fieldartillery unit, right?
So I was the only.
(42:25):
I was a senior patrollingsupply specialist of the
battalion, so and the battalionI went to was MLRS multiple
launch rocket systems.
Right and back in the motorpool again.
Can't do anything about it,right, that's just how it is
right that you know.
(42:46):
That's how I.
You know so I I spent most ofmy time up in the battalion with
s4 and supply, because therewas no need for me to be down in
the motor pool.
You know.
So I learned the supply system,okay, um, I was in charge of
all the fuelers of the battalion.
Even though I had, even thoughthey were in other batteries, I
(43:11):
was still in charge of them.
I've actually, you know, that'swhen we, that's when I learned
how to set up ROM, a ROM siterefuel on the move.
So basically, we'd get out infront and I learned this out in
the field We'd go ahead and setup, then all these the batteries
would come through, theheadquarters unit come through,
(43:34):
we'd be the last ones to leave.
Yeah, because we refueled thewhole battalion.
It was actually pretty fun atfirst, but then it got boring.
Then, of course, operationIraqi Freedom came about.
I've never seen such a gung-holieutenant colonel just because
(44:00):
he wants to make his full-blowncolonel.
And so we actually loaded up onthe trains, we shipped our
equipment over there, we flewover there, met our equipment
over there, we sent an advanceparty at first.
At first it was not a big thing.
(44:21):
At first it was not a big thing, and then, all of a sudden,
this battalion commander wantedto go ahead and okay, he wanted
to be the first one into Baghdad.
Uh-huh.
Well, if you know anything aboutwar doctrine, I feel artillery
fights from the back Right wegot in front of maneuver three
(44:45):
times.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, because you're there to provide support.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Uh-huh, yeah, we saw we had tanks rolling through our
perimeter.
We had you know.
It was like this is crazy.
We got up to the berm and whenthey said it's time to go, we
crossed over and I'm like mybattalion not once ran out of
(45:09):
fuel because of the effortsbetween myself and the S4.
Right, we stayed going thewhole time.
Time we it's nothing, seeing anm1, a1 abrams tank dead on the
side of the road and not in thefight because they don't have
(45:30):
any more fuel.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
That's how fast they were going and the supply lines
were two days back yeah, I don'tthink people understand how,
during that time, we outran oursupply lines in a lot of
instances, yeah, so it's veryimportant that they had those
plans ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
I had one tank commander come up to me and say,
hey, can we get some fuel so wecan get back in this?
I was like you got to go askthat captain up in front, right
there we ended up getting five,5k tankers tasked out to us and
these were National Guardmembers that were driving them
and we're like we're not gonnarun out of fuel.
(46:09):
Uh-uh, I refuse to have thisunit run out of fuel.
As we were traveling to baghdad, um, we got stuck.
We had our unit up in front thetalk, and they were actually at
the airport Baghdad Airportalready, but we weren't sure if
(46:32):
it was clear or not.
Uh-huh, because word came downthat enemy was starting to
surround and come down down.
We got stuck in an alley,nowhere to go, nothing to do.
We were there for about four,five hours.
We got there during when it wasstill light outside, and I went
(46:58):
up to the front and I startedlistening to what everybody was
saying.
I'm like we need to do a recon,because we heard that enemy was
trying to surround us.
One grenade, one rpg hits thetanker, hits the mogas pod, it
(47:20):
takes out the convoy right andfrom that moment on I'm like,
look, we need to do a recon.
After I said it, about an hourand a half went by okay, we're
gonna do a recon.
During all my other experiencesand by this time I'm in the E5,
(47:44):
I'm a leader, I'm an NCO, ncos,lead from the front I was like,
look, I am not going to sit hereand watch people go ahead and
get killed or die on my watchwhile y'all are contemplating
what to do next.
So we finally got some peopletogether to do a recon.
(48:10):
I had two captains and acivilian say okay, we're going
to go do a recon.
I basically said, like hell,you are.
They looked at me, stupid.
I'm like you're not going outthere without firepower.
What are you going to?
(48:32):
You got a 9mm, I've got an M16.
I'm qualified in a 249, a saw.
I can take that saw over therebecause I've positioned two
guards at entry points.
I can take that saw.
I can give him my 16 and I'mgoing to take that and go with
y'all.
I had the supply sergeant comeup.
(48:54):
He's like no, you're not.
I'm like, yes, I am.
And he's like no, you're not.
I'm like who's going to stop me?
I'm not letting these twocaptains and the civilian go
down that road without any kindof backup.
I'm gonna stop you.
No, you're not I.
(49:16):
And then he.
To this day, these words stickI'm not gonna let you go because
I'm not gonna be the one totell your family what happened
to you, if anything happens.
I looked at him like you're tooclose to retirement.
I'm not gonna let you gobecause you're getting ready to
retire and I'm not gonna be theone to tell your family that you
(49:37):
did something what we calleddumb at that time because he was
too close to retirement.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
So we ended up both going.
We ended up making a pact rightthen and there that we were
going to cover each other'sbacks and there's nothing nobody
can say or do about it.
I was like you don't tell myfamily, I won't tell yours, his
wife, basically, uh-huh.
(50:05):
I was like you don't tell myfamily, I won't tell yours, his
wife, basically.
And we ended up, you know, wedid that recon with those two
and we walked out and we cameback there was nobody around.
I did another recon of abuilding because I saw a red
light.
So I took three soldiers withme and did a recon.
It ended up being some kind ofa timer that puts lights on this
building or whatever.
(50:25):
So we made it to Baghdad airport.
We were getting low on oil andsupply lines were so far back,
maintenance was getting low onstuff and it's like we need to
get stuff, we need toacquisition somehow some way.
So we did a recon of theairport and we found some
(50:48):
connexes.
We're like, okay, let's see ifwe can find anything in there.
It was myself, uh, companycommander, who's a captain, uh,
an e6, and somebody else.
They went into one building,myself and the commander went
into a Connex.
We started looking around.
I ended up finding a box thatwas wet, had a wire running from
(51:15):
it.
I looked at him.
I was like, sir, with all duerespect, get the hell out.
And pushed him out.
I was like what, what, what,what, what, what?
I got a box with a wire andit's wet, get out.
I pushed him out.
We ended up telling uh, some uhspecial forces people that was
(51:37):
on the other side about what wefound over there.
Never knew what happened withit.
Uh, later on that day, he'slike, sir, you weren't going to
go ahead and go up in that,conics, and neither was I.
And you can go ahead and giveme an Article 15 for pushing you
and putting my hands on you.
That's fine.
He's like no, you did the rightthing.
When all of it was said anddone, we not once ran out of
(52:04):
fuel.
All of us came back to FortSill.
Not a single life was lostwhile over there.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
How long were you there?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
We were there.
What five months?
Okay, five and a half months.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
When you make it back to Fort Sill and what happens
from there.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
I actually I did a congressional because I was in a
non-promotable MOS and I wantedto go ahead and be CID, army
Criminal Investigation Division,right.
So I got tasked out to go workat the, or I got attached to go
work at the detachment of CIDover on Fort Sill.
(52:49):
After I did a congressional andorders came down and, oh yeah,
the battalion commander didn'tlike it.
Oh well, he actually.
I found out later on that he,as I was at Fort Sill, I ended
(53:14):
up going to BNOC BasicNon-Commissioned Officer Academy
at Fort Lee.
So I saw Fort Lee again as Iwas doing my assignment at CID.
I ended up getting myassociate's degree and I was
working on my bachelor's degreeat the same time and I was close
(53:36):
to finishing up my bachelor's.
Well, some E-8 on a boardsomewhere said, well, no, we
don't want him, even though theattachment and the MP brigade
that the attachment fell under,everybody wanted me.
So I ended up going back to myunit, which was kind of awkward
(53:59):
because nobody would talk to me.
No, everybody thought I wasalready cid and if they, all
they had to do was ask are youcid?
no, I'm not cid, I just did,yeah you're just, you know you
know, I got you know, I got youknow, tasked out over there for
six months, great, great.
So how long were you at FortSill?
(54:21):
I was at Fort Sill from 2009 tono, from 2001 to 2006.
Okay, five years.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
And then where?
So where'd you go from FortSill?
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Well, I put in I was about to put in a packet because
I'm like this is a dead-endsituation.
Right, I can't get promoted.
Okay, I can't get to the boarddue to the fact of, if you're
not field artillery, you're justput on the back burner, right,
even though it's the supportMOSs that actually support y'all
(55:02):
.
So I was in the process ofsubmitting my recruiter packet,
I came down on orders.
I was like, okay, great, wheream I going?
Because I talked to myretention NCO.
Well, you're going to Fort Lee.
Well, I looked up at Fort Lee.
(55:25):
I'm like, okay, there ispermanent party there.
I'm like, great, okay, fort Leeis boring, but, but you're
going as an instructor, cool,okay, I get to teach what I've
been taught and what I'velearned to.
You know private.
So you're really doing your job.
I'm doing my job again.
I'm like great, not a problem.
(55:46):
Well, the next day, theretention site.
So I was talking to theretention and they're like, um,
you're not going to that type ofinstructor.
Yeah, what are you talkingabout?
That's the only thing.
That's the only instructorsthat are there.
No, come to find out.
(56:07):
I got DA selected for drillsergeant, okay, and I was like
you're kidding me.
Yeah, so I PCS'd.
I went to Fort Lee first beforemy family came.
I did about 30 days or twomonths training with drill
(56:31):
sergeants there under theirwatchful eyes, before I went off
to drill sergeant school.
And, sure enough, I went backto Fort Leonard Wood for drill
sergeant school, and drillsergeant school taught a lot.
I was already a good leader,but you can become a better
(56:53):
leader.
It's all on how you phrasethings, how you word things.
Okay, uh, firm believer innever say never, right, never
thought I'd see Fort LeonardWood again after basic.
Never thought I'd see Fort Leeagain after AIT Boy, was I wrong
?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
So you end up back at Fort Lee.
So how long were you at FortLee?
Speaker 2 (57:15):
I was at Fort Lee from 2006 till I retired in 2009
.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Okay, so you retired as a drill instructor, okay,
well.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
I got off the trail right before I retired.
Okay, so you retired as a drillinstructor?
Yes, okay, well, I got off thetrail right before I retired.
Okay, all right, but I ended upgetting my bachelor's degree
and worked on my.
I was working on my master'sdegree while I was a drill
sergeant there at Fort Lee.
Oh, nice, I finished up mymaster's degree after I retired.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Okay, so talk to me about retirement.
What was it like?
Like that last time you put onthe uniform and it was time to
leave.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
It was different, you're so used to structure and
this has this getting adapted tocivilian life was like, okay,
how do I do this?
Yeah, you're not used to itanymore, right?
And then drill sergeantactually put me on the pace of
(58:22):
okay, you're going back to thecivilian world, you can go, you
know.
You can, you know, relate yourmilitary background as a drill
sergeant to working wherever youwork next in civilian life.
Well, we had, you know, ourdaughters were in Oklahoma, so
(58:45):
we moved back to Oklahoma and Iended up working at the Comanche
County Detention Center as adetention officer.
So I worked that job from 2009till 2015.
Okay, so six years, yeah, yeah,a few years.
Speaker 1 (59:04):
Well, it six years.
Yeah, yeah, a few years.
Speaker 2 (59:06):
Well, 2014.
Mm-hmm, I was like I got fed upwith what my ex was doing, so
separated.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
So at some point here you split up after you got to
Oklahoma.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah, okay, yep, okay .
We separated.
I tried to help somebody getout of a bad marriage but come
to find out they didn't want it.
So I helped them move down toTexas and I went back up or
(59:43):
moved them back down to Texasand they couldn't figure out
what they wanted.
So I, during separation, I metsomebody else down in of get to
(01:00:10):
my sister's place to see whatI'm going to do from there, kind
of regroup.
Yeah, I didn't want to go aheadand be a burning on my mom and
dad, even though they would haveloved me coming back.
I'm on my own.
I've been on my own.
If I don't like it inKentuckyentucky, I can always
move back to michigan.
Michigan still didn't.
They have very many jobs, right?
(01:00:31):
So I was like, okay, well, Iended up spending the night at
this person's house because Iwas tired and I I'm like you
know something, I'm not going tomake it.
I'll see if they'll let me stay, because I actually broke up
with them.
They let me stay.
Well, that one night stay endedup being until now, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
So this is how you ended up in Texas.
Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
You never made it to Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Nope, okay, I actually have gone there to
visit my sister once.
Yeah, I ended up working at theschool as a teacher assistant
with special need kids.
Well, I taught privates.
I can relate my training tothese kids Absolutely.
(01:01:21):
You know how to take care ofthem, what to do with this, give
them some structure that kindof yeah, yeah so I did that for
about two years and then, uh, Iwas like you know, you're not
making anything doing this andthe only way to make something
in the education system isbecome a teacher, right?
Well, the only thing I couldteach was either military
(01:01:45):
science, law enforcement or, uh,criminal law or physical
education.
Well, I saw the educationsystem and I'm like, if I'm a
teacher, you're not going totell me what to do, what to give
a kid a grade, and I'm sorry,no, if they don't put out, if
(01:02:09):
you give them ample enoughchances, they don't put out,
then they fail.
If you're playing simple, Right.
You know, I understand theconcept of never leave a kid
behind, but if that kid doesn'twant to put the effort in, well,
I'm not going to put the effortin.
I'm not letting him behind.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
I could have gone and taught at college.
I'm like I really don't want to, because you still have to
follow a curriculum, but atleast you don't have somebody
telling you what to do as far aswhat grade to give, right, I
actually I didn't see it, butheard firsthand that a teacher
gave a student a failing gradeand the administration changed
the grade.
I'm like, so that tells me youdon't trust your teachers and
(01:02:52):
you, yeah, and it's all aboutfinancial goals, and I'm like,
nope, not going to do this.
So teaching wasn't for you no.
Yeah.
So I moved over to Walmart.
I ended up stocking, working instocking produce, the produce
department, the meat departmentand then also in the bakery, and
(01:03:12):
sometimes I went into the deli,but they kept me more in the
produce and meat department, didthat for a while and then I
moved up to asset protection.
Asset protection is where youcatch thieves.
(01:03:33):
I'm like, oh, right up my alley, I can do this, great, but
there's still rules that you'vegot to follow.
And all of a sudden, at thistime then you started having
these school shootings come up,these store shootings.
So they basically were trainingtheir people.
(01:03:57):
If you know an active shooter,you go run and you go hide.
Run, hide, bite and we're usedto shoot, move, communicate
that's not what my trainingdictates, right, my training
dictates completely somethingdifferent.
I'm not gonna run, I'm notgonna hide, and by the time law
enforcement gets there, I'mprobably going to have this
individual subdued, if not takendown and de-armed.
(01:04:21):
And some people didn't like mytheory of thinking and I'm like
I've got the background, I cantake somebody out with no
problem.
I don't need a gun to take themout.
There's enough weapons inWalmart that I can use and you
blend in.
You know, throw something thatway.
(01:04:41):
They're going to go that way.
Look, you go the other way,right, so shoot, move,
communicate Well, get theirattention over that way.
They're going to go that way.
Look, you go the other way,right, so shoot, move,
communicate well, get theirattention over that way.
You move around them and thenyou take care of them.
And some people didn't like myway of thinking on that right.
Your philosophy didn't coincidewith their that's because you've
(01:05:01):
never been in the military.
You don't have a militarymindset, right?
I've got a military mindsetEverywhere I go.
Where's the exit?
Everywhere I go.
What will I do if this happens?
What will I do if this happens,if somebody comes up to me with
(01:05:25):
a weapon?
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
what am I going to do to them?
It's not going to be me.
It really goes all the way backto sitting on that berm
watching all of that happen,starting to think about what do
I do, what are yourcontingencies?
So you?
This is carried through all theway up until this point.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
So being a veteran of foreign wars has taught me
quite a bit on what to do incase of this.
Right, I left Walmart and Iended up being armed security at
a hospital which I am currentlyat now, okay, and I have the
medical staff and the fellowofficers I work with.
(01:06:00):
They think highly of a lot ofus, work with they.
They think highly of a lot ofus because, if something happens
, patients being unrulybehavioral patients granted,
these are patients not allowedto touch them.
They suffer from dementia oralzheimer's or any of the you
know, any type of medicalcondition that they may have.
(01:06:24):
Well, for that split second,they know exactly what they're
doing.
I work night shift, 12-hourshift.
I love my job and a lot of themedical staff there love, you
know, love me working.
If something happens, they cancall me, call you know, call on
(01:06:46):
me, without calling some codefor everybody to come up there.
Hey, can you do this Sureenough?
Well, I'm going to take care ofit, so they can count on you.
Yeah, yeah.
And they can count on.
A couple of other officers thatI work with at nighttime Love
(01:07:06):
the job.
I can relate a lot of myexperiences to it.
You know I'm always like whathappens if this Right, right, if
there's a?
You know, I've had people comeup to me and say, basically you
would actually take somebody'slife and I'm like, let me ask
(01:07:31):
you this would you like to beyour life or their life?
Well, my life.
I'm like there's your answer.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Not that you want to, but you have to do what you
have to do right it's either youor them.
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Yeah, okay, and it's not going to be me, right?
Um, I've been trained in waysthat only military veterans or
military personnel wouldactually understand.
People that have been workingcivilian life their whole life.
They may not understand some ofthe training that we go through
(01:08:09):
.
A prime example my sister'swedding.
Apparently, some people weregetting drunk in the parking lot
, mouthed off to a couple kids.
Well, these kids ended upthrowing some rocks and I walked
outside.
I'm like, okay, where'd they go?
(01:08:32):
Well, they went down that way.
So I started walking down thatway and my sister came up.
She's an MP, or she was an MPin the National Guard Reserve no
reserve and I had somebody else.
He came up drunk.
I got your back.
(01:08:56):
I'm like you, drunk as a skunk.
You don't have my back.
You have no idea what I'mcapable of doing.
Go back over there.
I literally told him that I'mcapable of doing.
Go back over there.
I literally told him that heactually left and went back over
there.
I'm like you idiot.
Um, my sister came up.
It's like what you're gonna doif you catch him?
I'm like I'm not gonna catchhim.
(01:09:18):
They're long gone by now rightyou know, there were some
railroad tracks there.
They're long gone.
It's dark outside.
I ain't gonna to catch them,but if they see somebody
starting to follow where theywere at, they're not going to
come back either.
So I don't look for trouble andI don't find trouble.
Sometimes trouble finds you.
(01:09:40):
You just got to know what to doand how to handle it.
Right, right, and myexperiences have taught me that
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
I'd like to shift gears a little bit.
Are you still married to thegal from Texas, Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
we're not married.
Uh, we're engaged, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
So we're not married.
Yes, we're still together.
Very good.
And what are your, what areyour kids doing now?
Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Uh, I know my oldest daughter.
She is working oklahoma statebureau of investigation in
oklahoma.
Uh, the middle daughter is ingermany.
She married a military member.
Um, what she's doing over there, I don't know.
Yeah, the youngest daughter Idon't have any contact with
because of my ex.
(01:10:22):
Okay, um, hopefully she'llfinally come around and yeah
yeah, that would be nice.
um, I'm assuming, or um guessing, that she's working in with
animals.
Um, last thing I heard is thatthey were raising, or what's the
(01:10:46):
word.
I'm looking for Not raising,but breeding.
Thank you, rottweilers.
Okay, so she wanted to be aveterinarian or work with
animals?
So that's the last thing Iheard.
Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Well, hopefully she's doing that.
Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Oh, yeah, so do I.
Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
So we've covered a lot of ground.
You've done a lot of things inyour life.
I just really have one morequestion for you, okay, and that
is someone listening to this.
Years from now maybe, whenneither one of us are here
anymore, what message would youlike them to take away from this
conversation and really how youlived your life?
(01:11:22):
This?
Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
conversation and really how you lived your life.
Listen to those that raised you, follow Well, I'm not going to
say follow, but kind of lookinto their footsteps, walk in
their footsteps.
Follow your instincts.
It's your gutting, yourinstincts, in which I'm a firm
(01:11:46):
believer, in both of them,that's going to get you through
life and get you through hardtimes.
If you second guess your gut,you're going to second guess
your life.
I've had an enjoyable life.
I've had an enjoyable life.
I've had great experiences.
(01:12:07):
If you do join the military,listen to your veterans.
Your veterans are going to getyou through whatever is to come.
I've had lots of veterans thatI've actually listened to and
(01:12:30):
they got me through quite a bitand you know we got through each
other.
I work with quite a bit ofveterans and I like listening to
their stories.
They like listening to mine.
One of those veterans he was sfduring Vietnam.
(01:12:50):
I know exactly what he does,even though he doesn't say it,
because as a veteran, you've gotthat same mindset.
I came in on the tail end ofthe old army and the beginning
of the new army.
This new way can't stand.
It don't like.
(01:13:10):
It never will Needs to go backto the old way.
Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
All right, well, thanks for sharing that.
Thanks for taking time out on aThursday morning to talk with
me.
You're welcome.
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