Can independent veterinary practices really thrive alongside corporate giants? Join us live from the Western Veterinary Conference in Las Vegas as we challenge this myth with Tristyn Gies from Bank of America's practice lending division. Discover how a typical $750,000 loan can be a game-changer for aspiring veterinarians, providing the necessary funds for construction, equipment, and working capital. Tristan shares her wealth of knowledge on the financial durability of private practices and debunks misconceptions about their viability. Gain invaluable insight into the world of veterinary practice ownership, from crafting a solid business plan to the critical role of assembling an expert support team.
Travel across a vast territory with Tristyn as she discusses her experiences managing regions from Alaska to Iowa. Learn how building connections with local communities adds a personal touch to her work. This episode also offers practical advice on navigating the hurdles of starting a veterinary practice, highlighting the importance of early preparation and expert guidance. Whether you're a budding veterinarian or a seasoned professional, this episode is packed with tips and stories that underscore the rewarding journey to practice ownership. Don't forget to engage with us by liking, sharing, and commenting on this insightful episode!
Tristyn Gies
Bank of America Practice Solutions
Regional Business Development Officer |Veterinary Division
Cell: 614-746-9431 | Fax: 312-453-2158
Tristyn.Gies@bofa.com
LindedIn - linkedin.com/in/tristyn-gies-ms
Bank of America - Veterinary Practice Lending
Host Information
Bill Butler – Contact Information
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https://butlervetinsurance.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/billbutler-cic/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast
brought to you by Butler VetInsurance.
Hosted by Bill Butler, theVeterinary Blueprint Podcast is
for veterinarians and practicemanagers who are looking to
learn about working on theirpractice instead of in their
practice.
Each episode we will bring yousuccessful, proven blueprints
from others, both inside andoutside the veterinary industry.
(00:21):
Welcome to today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to this episode of the Veterinary
Blueprints Podcast.
I am your host, bill Butler,and I'm coming to you live from
West Vet, down in the WesternVeterinary Conference, down in
Las Vegas, nevada.
I am live at the Bank ofAmerica booth, of all places,
and I just I'm happy to be heremeeting so many great people on
(00:46):
this episode, and one of thoseindividuals that I've gotten to
know over the last month or soactually a little bit longer
than that, but is Tristan Geis,and she is a banker with Bank of
America and their practicelending division and I'm
grateful to have her on todayand I'll let her do a little
(01:06):
introduction first.
But we're here, day two atWestern Vet Conference, and boy
is it hopping.
And in fact Tristan and I wentout and had a great meal last
night as well with a coupleother associates.
So welcome to the podcast,tristan.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Hi Bill, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You're welcome.
Well, thanks for joining me.
We're going to have a lot ofbackground noise.
There's announcements andthere's a DJ that plays as well.
It's all part of the fun.
It is all part of the fun, sowhy don't you tell our listeners
a little bit about yourself andBank of America and what you do
in your role helping veterinarypractices and owners?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I am the business developmentofficer for the Pacific
Northwest and dipping into partsof the Midwest.
My job is solely focused tohelp support practice for small
and private practices and DVMswho are looking to either start
practice ownership, expand theirpractice you know anything that
they really need as far aspractice financials.
I'm here to be a resource and abig part of their team.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So if a veterinarian who wants some money to buy a
practice, build out a practice,open a second location, they
should talk to you at Bank ofAmerica.
That's what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Absolutely.
We only work with DVM, so it'sa very specialized niche market
that we're very excited to be apart of.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So just jumping right in, you know there's a lot of
lenders out there and we're not.
There's many avenues and Ithink you all do something
differently.
But I think what I'd like totalk to our listeners today
about with regards to lendingand you know, just hey, I'm an
associate somewhere and I'minterested in getting into
(02:42):
owning my own practice.
I think there's some myths outthere for veterinarians about
whether or not they can actuallyafford it, whether they can do
it, and one of the first thingsthat I want to ask is you know,
I don't think I can compete withcorporate-owned practices as a
startup, and why don't you talka little bit about that and how
(03:03):
you know an associate out therecan actually go out and compete?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, that's absolutely definitely a common
myth that we hear and I wouldcall it exactly that it is a
myth.
During 2020, you know, when therest of the world kind of shut
down, the veterinary divisionand business really took off as
a whole to a new height that wehad never seen and we had, you
know, as bankers, we saw thisuptick of corporate
consolidators and corporateowners really stepping into a
(03:28):
space that they had never beenbefore and it definitely had an
impact.
But, as with the pandemic, thathas definitely slowed down and
taken a step back.
And we're starting to see thependulum really swing and
champion private practiceownership.
So you know we're not here tohate on corporates and they
definitely exist and do a goodjob in that realm but we're
really here to champion theprivate practice owner and to
(03:50):
anyone who is considering it,it's definitely an untapped
market.
There's plenty of room forgrowth.
We see it all the time andwe're here to rally and champion
and make those dreams a reality.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
There's plenty of competition out there or plenty
of opportunity out there.
What's the average loan sizethat you're seeing come through
Bank of America right now?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So right now we're reallyfocusing between $700 and $750,
potentially pushing higher if wecan make that work, but I'd say
$750 is our sweet spot at themoment.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So your average loan size in the sweet spot where you
can get deals done is $750.
And the sweet spot where youcan get deals done is $750.
And what are you generallyseeing?
Associates who take out apractice loan with Bank of
America use that for.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
So they're definitely using, you know, a significant
piece towards construction.
We want to make sure you have abeautiful, well-run,
well-equipped practice.
We also break out a separatedivision of that for equipment
and then a third for workingcapital, so that way you know
when you start you're notstarting with nothing.
You have capital in there topay rent, buy supplies,
basically support all overheaduntil you break even in a few
(04:51):
months.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So you give them some money to get everything going
and get their foot off theground.
And I think across you knowhealth care and across dentists
and optometrists.
I've heard that veterinarianshave the lowest default rate on
loans, meaning that there's riskinvolved, obviously, with
starting a practice and takingout a loan, but generally, for
(05:17):
the most part, veterinarians arepretty successful and make a go
of it.
Otherwise you wouldn't beloaning the money the way you're
loaning it.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Absolutely.
We love veterinarians.
Right now, I think the bank haslike a less than 1% default
rate.
Don't quote me, I'd have to getreal down to it but less than
1%, and we love the vets.
It's very, very, very, veryhard to have a vet practice fail
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So I'd like to jump into another myth that I think
is out there, and that's thatall the corporate buyers out
there, the consolidators, arebuying all of the practices and
there aren't any practices forsale at all.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
That is absolutely not true.
Again, great question Iunderstand where this myth comes
from, but that is not the case.
We saw, when the corporateconsolidating really started
becoming prevalent and took areally big hit in 2020, 2021,
they were buying up a lot ofpractices you know one, one and
a half doctor, up to five, six,seven doctors.
You know they were kind ofpicking up everyone and as that
(06:12):
has really slowed down and theirattitude has changed a lot of
times we notice that corporatesare looking for the bigger
practices.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So those five or six doctor and up practices are the
ones that they're targeting, butthe ones that, from a financial
standpoint, make more sense forthem.
Now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Correct, getting a little more attention.
So there are definitely, youknow, one to two doctor
practices for sale.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And with that I've heard the reason that it's
harder for the consolidators ofthe corporate practices, because
if it's a one docdoc or two-docpractice and they leave, it's
very hard for them to replacethat core veterinarian, whereas
if it's a five or six-docpractice and one leaves, they're
(06:56):
still able to make it work.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, it's not as detrimental Not as detrimental
to them.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So the single-doctor practices out there, one or two
doctor practices, so those arethe ones that you're seeing a
lot more of a private practicedeals going through on.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then not only that, but alot of times, you know, we see
the transition be in house, somaybe an associate has come in
or you know, a family, friend orsomething, and they're taking
over that practice.
And not only are they takingover that practice, but they're
taking over the culture and thestaff that comes with it.
And so we see a lot of success,you know, kind of in that realm
of passing down and havinggenerational practices, and we
(07:33):
see a lot of doctors move forthose small practices too, you
know they're just as prevalent.
But when you take one doctorwho's really passionate about
private owner and replace themwith another doctor who is just
as equally passionate abouttaking care of their people and
their practice, it's a greatrecipe for success.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So with that you know , I think one of the other
hurdles that an associate whowants to purchase a practice has
run into is that you know theymight be calling a lot of the.
There's a lot of brokers outthere that will help buyers and
sellers of veterinary practicesand some of them aren't quite as
(08:10):
responsive when a veterinarianreaches out and says hey, I'm in
your market, I hear that you'rethe rep for X broker and I want
some help.
I'm in the market to buy apractice practice and they don't
get a call back.
I've heard the reason for thatis that generally the deals
(08:31):
aren't as big for the one andtwo vet practices and that some
of the brokers not all of them,but some of the brokers
generally want to play in thecorporate space because the
multiples are higher and themoney's bigger and so the single
doc practices or a veterinarianassociate looking to buy might
have a hard time finding someassistance in working with a
(08:51):
broker to get that deal oridentify a practice.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, you know, I definitely think that that might
be the case with some.
I know a couple of brokers whovery much champion that small
practice independent practiceowned.
So I would say that if you'rein a position where you're not
getting a callback, there are aton of great brokers out there
and there are a ton of options.
So just do your research.
(09:16):
One personality might not bethe best fit with the other, but
there are definitely ways tofind those practices.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And generally, lenders like yourself will know
which brokers are more inclinedto work with the private sales
versus the corporate sales, andso you know, getting connected
with a good lender is always agood starting point.
So, as far as you know themoney component and saying, well
(09:45):
, holy cow, I've got studentdebt, and you know, another myth
that that winds up coming upquite a bit in conversation is
I've got too much student debtto be able to get along.
And what would you?
What would you say to anassociate you know, a fourth
year, fourth year associatesaying I don't think I can get
along because I've got too muchstudent debt?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
fourth-year associate saying I don't think I can get
along because I've got too muchstudent debt.
Yeah, to expect a freshgraduate, two to three years out
of school, to not have any debtis absolutely asinine.
You know we're a lender, we'rerealistic, we deal with money.
We know you have student debt.
A lot of our borrowers, 90% ofour borrowers, have student debt
.
So if you're ever concerned,talk to a banker and get
pre-qualified.
(10:25):
But I would say that while itis a valid concern, it's not.
As long as you're willing andequipped and able to do it, it's
not going to stop you.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
So it kind of goes back to that earlier point that
I made about low default ratethat you confirmed.
It's that because there's sucha low default rate, if the math
makes sense in the practice, thebank's willing to take a risk
because they know it's low risk,Even though you personally have
debt.
The practice itself willgenerally tend to make money.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Absolutely.
I don't blink an eye when Ihear student loans.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So for veterinarians thinking about, or wanting to
start the process of thinking,well, maybe I'm ready to start
looking.
What are some things that, whenan associate comes to you, you
think I wish you had startedthis a month ago, or I wish you
had started this six months ago,or I wish you had started this
a month ago, or wish you hadstarted this six months ago, or
wish you had started working onthis 18 months ago, because you
(11:19):
know, here you are ready to jumpon this, but we've got to get
some things cleaned up.
So what's one of the firstthings that you know?
What's some things that youwould recommend an associate
who's contemplating ownershipstart to work on?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've probably got about threekey takeaways from this one.
The first one would be talk toa banker.
You know, there's a lot ofthought around the banks being
scary because it's just such alarge amount of money and we're
only interested in people whohave good credit or, you know,
excuse me, low student loans orwhatever it may be, and that's
just simply not the case.
If you want to, you know, lookat opening your own practice.
(11:52):
It is never too early to have aconversation with a banker,
Because if there's something toyour point that needs to, be
cleaned up or needs to be takencare of before you can start
working on that approval.
Wouldn't you rather know andhave that goal a year ahead of
time, instead of getting finallyready and then you know,
finding out that you have to putaway more money or you have?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
to work on something else.
You find the perfect space, andthen you call a banker and the
banker says, all right, well,we've got to get your credit
cleaned up and we'd like to seesome money in the bank first.
And you go well, the spot thatI want for lease right now.
What am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Right.
It's not in the banker's bestinterest to push you into a loan
before you're ready.
If that's the case, you knowthat's not a good fit for us.
So we will protect you and wewant to get you cleaned up and
is ready to go as soon as we can.
So it's never too early.
Talk to a banker.
We'll take care of you.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So you'll know what needs to happen, kind of when it
needs to happen.
So part of that building a plan, do you think that's another
good component?
And that's part of talking witha banker, obviously.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Absolutely.
So two and three kind of buildinto that.
You're going to want to buildyour plan and then you're also
going to want to build a teamaround that.
So you know, when you thinkabout owning a practice and
building a plan, what area doyou want to be on, how big, what
services do you want to offer?
You know, definitely have thatin the back of your mind and
have a direction and a dream,because that's going guide you.
And then you know.
Number three is probably themost important is build your
(13:13):
team.
Start with your banker, getpre-qualified, and then you know
our job is to not only get youpre-qualified but also know
everyone who plays in theveterinary space.
That's why we hang out at theseconferences, so we know the real
estate brokers, the equipmentreps, the lab reps, the
contractors everyone who isgoing to be a good fit and
veterinary specific, to makesure that we're able to help and
(13:34):
surround you with the best teamyou have.
So not only are you talking andgetting all of your financials
in order, but you're alsosurrounding yourself with people
who believe in your dream andwho know about veterinary
specific businesses to make yourtransition as easy as possible.
You're going to have enough onyour plate and enough mental
headspace going on.
You want to surround yourselfwith people who are going to
help lighten that load and takecare of you.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So the taking care of part before as they're getting
started and this is just from myown experience in working with
veterinarians insurance isusually thought of last, but
it's one of the things that theyshould start thinking about
ahead of time, because they'regoing to have to do it to do
alone, right.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Correct, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And then an attorney and down the road a CPA who
specializes in veterinary.
So banker attorney, cpainsurance, to get things going
because there's so much help outthere in the animal health
space.
So whether it's pharmaceuticalreps, equipment reps, there's a
(14:31):
lot of resources there, but thebusiness side there aren't as
many.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Correct, and you know , on top of that, you hit them
all in the head.
It's insurances, it's attorneys, it's CPAs, lenders, even, at
that point, a real estate broker, someone you'd want to have
early in as well.
Yes, surrounding yourself withthe people who know the business
acumen is incredibly beneficialand should not be taken lightly
.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
So for my own entrepreneurial career, I don't
have to think about knowingeverything with tax and I don't
have to think about knowingeverything with attorneys.
I hire an attorney.
In fact, I'm going to be movingmy office this year, and so I
was on a call yesterday herefrom the conference with my
attorney reviewing a lease, andwhile I can read a lease and
(15:15):
kind of understand the generalcomponents of it, he looks at
these every single day and knowsexactly what's right or wrong
and say, hey, you know, we wantto try and get this put in the
lease.
So, relying on those experts inspecific areas that they're
great at and you might not begood at as a veterinarian,
because you're really good atanimal health You're not good at
some of the business stuffpotentially, and so that's where
(15:36):
the team comes into play.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to be honest to you, likeyou've got enough in your head,
do you really want to add leasereview and all of that in there
as well?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I don't, I'd rather just be on a 20 minute call pay
the attorney and say what do we?
Need to put it.
Let's get that in place.
So what's the average time?
You know, if I'm a veterinariantoday and I've got clean
financials and I got some moneyin the bank and I don't have a
lot of credit card debt and I'm,you know, regardless of student
(16:07):
loan debt and I look prettygood, what's kind of the
timeline that you see or youknow, not fastest or slowest,
but what's the average time ittakes to get a deal through the
bank?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
From application to opening doors probably a year
give or take a couple months.
So you said it earlier.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
it's never too early to talk to a banker, so not hey,
I want to buy this practice insix months.
It's I'm 18 months to 12 monthsout.
We should start theconversation now.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yes, yes, we love to help all of our vets, but the
ones who can also help us giveyou enough notice and enough
time is highly appreciated.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Sure, and what are some of the things that slow or
have caused problems?
From your experience workingwith veterinarians, where you
know a veterinarian is superpassionate, ready to sign a
lease on a space and somethingcomes up, what are some of the
common pitfalls out there thatslow, deals down or stop them
dead on their tracks?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
You know, a lot of times it can be getting the
financing in place, whetherthat's.
You know you need a couple moremonths of savings, or you know
you need to maybe pay off acredit card debt, something
beforehand.
That can be a part of it.
Another big piece honestly wesee a lot is the real estate.
Even if you find that space, ifyou don't have that lease
reviewed, that can take up sometime, and then if you have to go
(17:25):
back to the landlord andnegotiate, I would say that real
estate is really one of thebigger ones that can put a pause
on everything.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
In fact, I was working on one and the
veterinarian had signed thepurchase agreement and had
signed it three different timesand the landlord or the property
owner had said no, okay, we'regoing to change this thing.
He's like wait a second, I hada contract here.
So you know, the importantthing is to understand that, as
(17:54):
Trista mentioned, it's gettingthat conversation started.
As soon as you have the thoughtbubble above your head hey, I
think I want to do this.
I should probably talk to abanker and every bank's going to
have a different process andwhat their requirements are.
Just for again, for theveterinarian out there who's
thinking all right, I'm 18months out or I'm a year out,
(18:17):
what's some stuff, or what arethe requirements that you have
to get going to get pre-approved?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
yeah, absolutely so.
We're going to want you to knowyour production.
If you have dreams of being apractice owner, it's likely that
you're going to be workingfull-time for quite a few years
until you build that staff upand build that revenue.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So, knowing what you're capable of and being able
to do you know, prove that andshow that that's really
important so you're going towant to see what that
veterinarian's been producing,not just last month, but over a
little bit of time.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, absolutely Over the last year, I would say.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
What if they can't get those?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
You know what?
That's a great question.
We do have a baseline creditthat we give full-time
veterinarians and we understandthat sometimes you don't want to
ask your boss, you don't wantto feel like you're tipping them
off to your plans.
So if you can't get those,that's okay.
It doesn't stop an application.
But if it's something that youcan know and have a conversation
about or at least have like avague idea, that is helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Another thing we think of is we would like you to
see, we would like to see somecash reserves have a rainy day
fund.
We don't require any downpayment on our startup loans,
but what we do is we want tomake sure that, if the worst
thing happens and you need totake some time off, that you
still have the ability to putfood on your table.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
pay your bills, you got a little money in the bank.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Absolutely have some money in the bank.
So that's the reason that welook at the cash reserves we
want to make sure that you're agood steward and you're prepared
.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So cash reserves aren't one month's expenses.
For the purposes of taking outan $850,000 loan, cash reserves
is somewhere like $20,000 to$50,000.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So question would it be better off I was an associate
say well, I'm going to crushdown my student loan payments
versus putting money in the bankbecause I'm going to take out a
loan.
What's better to do, pay downstudent debt or put money in the
bank?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Keep that money in the bank.
Keep it there Again.
We expect you to have studentloans.
We know it's a part of life.
We know that you've spent anincredible amount of years
becoming doctors.
We expect you to have it.
I would rather you save up yourmoney and keep those student
loans as they are, because wecan account for that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So pay down the credit card debt.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Pay it down, get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Pay down the credit card debt, but leave the student
loan debt because it'sgenerally a pretty low interest
rate Correct and put money inthe bank.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Correct.
And then once you're an ownerand you're making even more
money, then you can jump awaywith those student loans, then
you can pay those down.
That's right, have a plan.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So that's a good reason to talk to a banker early
.
So you're not going.
Well, I just dumped all mysavings into student loans to
try and get my student loan downwhen really it doesn't matter.
Oh, we've got somebody backingup here Exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Live and in person, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Don't worry, we're not getting run over, all right.
So, tristan, why don't we giveour veterinarians one last tip?
As they're embarking on theirjourney to ownership from the
mind of a banker.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Mind of a banker, all right.
So if our three tips are talkto a banker, build your plan and
build your team, number fourtip and this is a personal tip
that I always give out is worksmarter, not harder.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, I like that one .
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, have open, honest, painful conversations.
If your friend has opened up apractice, talk to them about
what they did or didn't like.
If you're looking at insurancesand you don't know what's going
on, reach out to someone.
You know, when we're sittinghere and we're making
connections and we're talkingabout building a team, you're
going to want to surroundyourself with people who believe
in what you do and you're goingto want to surround yourself
with people who believe in whatyou do and you're going to want
(21:41):
to have those honest, vulnerableconversations, because being a
practice owner is hard enough.
Make sure that you surroundyourself with good people who
know it and you're able to beprepared and have those hard
conversations.
You don't want to beat yourhead against the wall.
People are doing this every day.
You've got a ton of resourcesout there.
Start looking.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So to close, why are you so passionate about helping
veterinarians?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I've got a dog who has gone through two TPLO
surgeries and I've got a 13 yearold cat and a three-year-old
COVID kitten, and they are thelights of my life.
I love my veterinarians so much.
They definitely love my animalsmore than they love me, but I'm
very passionate about thepeople who take care of my
babies in this community,because it's just an incredible
(22:24):
group of people doing incrediblethings daily.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Veterinarians are great people and they're easy to
do business with.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Absolutely.
I love veterinarians.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Well, I really appreciate the insight.
Tristan, We'll make sure tohave your contact information on
the show notes, but if somebodywants to reach out to you,
what's the best way to get ahold of you at Bank of America?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Feel free to shoot me over anemail.
It's first name, tristan,t-r-i-s-t-y-n period.
Last name G-I-E-S, atB-O-F-Acom.
Or give me a call 614-746-9431.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And you handle the Upper Northwest.
So basically Alaska over toMinnesota over to Minnesota.
Yeah, that's a big territory.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I'm on the road a lot , so if you need me, I'm likely
driving somewhere.
I cover Alaska, Washington,Oregon, Idaho, Montana, the
Dakotas, Minnesota and Iowa.
Woo, I got lots of sweatshirtsand lots of stickers from
different places.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Well, you need them for that part of the country.
Maybe not this winter.
Well, tristan, it's been greathaving you on the podcast and
really enjoyed our time together.
We had a great meal last nightconnecting and just looking
forward to helping veterinarianswith the assistance of Bank of
America.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Bill, Thank you for all you do.
You're a great partner.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Thanks, tristan.
As always, veterinarians makesure to like, share and comment
on the podcast.
It helps with the algorithm andtune in to the next episode of
the Veterinary Blueprintspodcast, where business and
entrepreneurship meet the animalhealth community.
Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast
brought to you by Butler VetInsurance.
Hosted by Bill Butler, theVeterinary Blueprint Podcast is
for veterinarians and practicemanagers who are looking to
learn about working on theirpractice instead of in their
practice.
Each episode we will bring yousuccessful, proven blueprints
from others, both inside andoutside the veterinary industry.
(00:21):
Welcome to today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to this episode of the Veterinary
Blueprints Podcast.
I am your host, bill Butler,and I'm coming to you live from
West Vet, down in the WesternVeterinary Conference, down in
Las Vegas, nevada.
I am live at the Bank ofAmerica booth, of all places,
and I just I'm happy to be heremeeting so many great people on
(00:46):
this episode, and one of thoseindividuals that I've gotten to
know over the last month or soactually a little bit longer
than that, but is Tristan Geis,and she is a banker with Bank of
America and their practicelending division and I'm
grateful to have her on todayand I'll let her do a little
(01:06):
introduction first.
But we're here, day two atWestern Vet Conference, and boy
is it hopping.
And in fact Tristan and I wentout and had a great meal last
night as well with a coupleother associates.
So welcome to the podcast,tristan.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Hi Bill, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You're welcome.
Well, thanks for joining me.
We're going to have a lot ofbackground noise.
There's announcements andthere's a DJ that plays as well.
It's all part of the fun.
It is all part of the fun, sowhy don't you tell our listeners
a little bit about yourself andBank of America and what you do
in your role helping veterinarypractices and owners?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I am the business developmentofficer for the Pacific
Northwest and dipping into partsof the Midwest.
My job is solely focused tohelp support practice for small
and private practices and DVMswho are looking to either start
practice ownership, expand theirpractice you know anything that
they really need as far aspractice financials.
I'm here to be a resource and abig part of their team.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So if a veterinarian who wants some money to buy a
practice, build out a practice,open a second location, they
should talk to you at Bank ofAmerica.
That's what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Absolutely.
We only work with DVM, so it'sa very specialized niche market
that we're very excited to be apart of.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So just jumping right in, you know there's a lot of
lenders out there and we're not.
There's many avenues and Ithink you all do something
differently.
But I think what I'd like totalk to our listeners today
about with regards to lendingand you know, just hey, I'm an
associate somewhere and I'minterested in getting into
(02:42):
owning my own practice.
I think there's some myths outthere for veterinarians about
whether or not they can actuallyafford it, whether they can do
it, and one of the first thingsthat I want to ask is you know,
I don't think I can compete withcorporate-owned practices as a
startup, and why don't you talka little bit about that and how
(03:03):
you know an associate out therecan actually go out and compete?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, that's absolutely definitely a common
myth that we hear and I wouldcall it exactly that it is a
myth.
During 2020, you know, when therest of the world kind of shut
down, the veterinary divisionand business really took off as
a whole to a new height that wehad never seen and we had, you
know, as bankers, we saw thisuptick of corporate
consolidators and corporateowners really stepping into a
(03:28):
space that they had never beenbefore and it definitely had an
impact.
But, as with the pandemic, thathas definitely slowed down and
taken a step back.
And we're starting to see thependulum really swing and
champion private practiceownership.
So you know we're not here tohate on corporates and they
definitely exist and do a goodjob in that realm but we're
really here to champion theprivate practice owner and to
(03:50):
anyone who is considering it,it's definitely an untapped
market.
There's plenty of room forgrowth.
We see it all the time andwe're here to rally and champion
and make those dreams a reality.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
There's plenty of competition out there or plenty
of opportunity out there.
What's the average loan sizethat you're seeing come through
Bank of America right now?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So right now we're reallyfocusing between $700 and $750,
potentially pushing higher if wecan make that work, but I'd say
$750 is our sweet spot at themoment.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So your average loan size in the sweet spot where you
can get deals done is $750.
And the sweet spot where youcan get deals done is $750.
And what are you generallyseeing?
Associates who take out apractice loan with Bank of
America use that for.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
So they're definitely using, you know, a significant
piece towards construction.
We want to make sure you have abeautiful, well-run,
well-equipped practice.
We also break out a separatedivision of that for equipment
and then a third for workingcapital, so that way you know
when you start you're notstarting with nothing.
You have capital in there topay rent, buy supplies,
basically support all overheaduntil you break even in a few
(04:51):
months.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So you give them some money to get everything going
and get their foot off theground.
And I think across you knowhealth care and across dentists
and optometrists.
I've heard that veterinarianshave the lowest default rate on
loans, meaning that there's riskinvolved, obviously, with
starting a practice and takingout a loan, but generally, for
(05:17):
the most part, veterinarians arepretty successful and make a go
of it.
Otherwise you wouldn't beloaning the money the way you're
loaning it.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Absolutely.
We love veterinarians.
Right now, I think the bank haslike a less than 1% default
rate.
Don't quote me, I'd have to getreal down to it but less than
1%, and we love the vets.
It's very, very, very, veryhard to have a vet practice fail
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So I'd like to jump into another myth that I think
is out there, and that's thatall the corporate buyers out
there, the consolidators, arebuying all of the practices and
there aren't any practices forsale at all.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
That is absolutely not true.
Again, great question Iunderstand where this myth comes
from, but that is not the case.
We saw, when the corporateconsolidating really started
becoming prevalent and took areally big hit in 2020, 2021,
they were buying up a lot ofpractices you know one, one and
a half doctor, up to five, six,seven doctors.
You know they were kind ofpicking up everyone and as that
(06:12):
has really slowed down and theirattitude has changed a lot of
times we notice that corporatesare looking for the bigger
practices.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So those five or six doctor and up practices are the
ones that they're targeting, butthe ones that, from a financial
standpoint, make more sense forthem.
Now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Correct, getting a little more attention.
So there are definitely, youknow, one to two doctor
practices for sale.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And with that I've heard the reason that it's
harder for the consolidators ofthe corporate practices, because
if it's a one docdoc or two-docpractice and they leave, it's
very hard for them to replacethat core veterinarian, whereas
if it's a five or six-docpractice and one leaves, they're
(06:56):
still able to make it work.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, it's not as detrimental Not as detrimental
to them.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So the single-doctor practices out there, one or two
doctor practices, so those arethe ones that you're seeing a
lot more of a private practicedeals going through on.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then not only that, but alot of times, you know, we see
the transition be in house, somaybe an associate has come in
or you know, a family, friend orsomething, and they're taking
over that practice.
And not only are they takingover that practice, but they're
taking over the culture and thestaff that comes with it.
And so we see a lot of success,you know, kind of in that realm
of passing down and havinggenerational practices, and we
(07:33):
see a lot of doctors move forthose small practices too, you
know they're just as prevalent.
But when you take one doctorwho's really passionate about
private owner and replace themwith another doctor who is just
as equally passionate abouttaking care of their people and
their practice, it's a greatrecipe for success.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So with that you know , I think one of the other
hurdles that an associate whowants to purchase a practice has
run into is that you know theymight be calling a lot of the.
There's a lot of brokers outthere that will help buyers and
sellers of veterinary practicesand some of them aren't quite as
(08:10):
responsive when a veterinarianreaches out and says hey, I'm in
your market, I hear that you'rethe rep for X broker and I want
some help.
I'm in the market to buy apractice practice and they don't
get a call back.
I've heard the reason for thatis that generally the deals
(08:31):
aren't as big for the one andtwo vet practices and that some
of the brokers not all of them,but some of the brokers
generally want to play in thecorporate space because the
multiples are higher and themoney's bigger and so the single
doc practices or a veterinarianassociate looking to buy might
have a hard time finding someassistance in working with a
(08:51):
broker to get that deal oridentify a practice.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, you know, I definitely think that that might
be the case with some.
I know a couple of brokers whovery much champion that small
practice independent practiceowned.
So I would say that if you'rein a position where you're not
getting a callback, there are aton of great brokers out there
and there are a ton of options.
So just do your research.
(09:16):
One personality might not bethe best fit with the other, but
there are definitely ways tofind those practices.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And generally, lenders like yourself will know
which brokers are more inclinedto work with the private sales
versus the corporate sales, andso you know, getting connected
with a good lender is always agood starting point.
So, as far as you know themoney component and saying, well
(09:45):
, holy cow, I've got studentdebt, and you know, another myth
that that winds up coming upquite a bit in conversation is
I've got too much student debtto be able to get along.
And what would you?
What would you say to anassociate you know, a fourth
year, fourth year associatesaying I don't think I can get
along because I've got too muchstudent debt?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
fourth-year associate saying I don't think I can get
along because I've got too muchstudent debt.
Yeah, to expect a freshgraduate, two to three years out
of school, to not have any debtis absolutely asinine.
You know we're a lender, we'rerealistic, we deal with money.
We know you have student debt.
A lot of our borrowers, 90% ofour borrowers, have student debt
.
So if you're ever concerned,talk to a banker and get
pre-qualified.
(10:25):
But I would say that while itis a valid concern, it's not.
As long as you're willing andequipped and able to do it, it's
not going to stop you.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
So it kind of goes back to that earlier point that
I made about low default ratethat you confirmed.
It's that because there's sucha low default rate, if the math
makes sense in the practice, thebank's willing to take a risk
because they know it's low risk,Even though you personally have
debt.
The practice itself willgenerally tend to make money.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Absolutely.
I don't blink an eye when Ihear student loans.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So for veterinarians thinking about, or wanting to
start the process of thinking,well, maybe I'm ready to start
looking.
What are some things that, whenan associate comes to you, you
think I wish you had startedthis a month ago, or I wish you
had started this six months ago,or I wish you had started this
a month ago, or wish you hadstarted this six months ago, or
wish you had started working onthis 18 months ago, because you
(11:19):
know, here you are ready to jumpon this, but we've got to get
some things cleaned up.
So what's one of the firstthings that you know?
What's some things that youwould recommend an associate
who's contemplating ownershipstart to work on?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've probably got about threekey takeaways from this one.
The first one would be talk toa banker.
You know, there's a lot ofthought around the banks being
scary because it's just such alarge amount of money and we're
only interested in people whohave good credit or, you know,
excuse me, low student loans orwhatever it may be, and that's
just simply not the case.
If you want to, you know, lookat opening your own practice.
(11:52):
It is never too early to have aconversation with a banker,
Because if there's something toyour point that needs to, be
cleaned up or needs to be takencare of before you can start
working on that approval.
Wouldn't you rather know andhave that goal a year ahead of
time, instead of getting finallyready and then you know,
finding out that you have to putaway more money or you have?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
to work on something else.
You find the perfect space, andthen you call a banker and the
banker says, all right, well,we've got to get your credit
cleaned up and we'd like to seesome money in the bank first.
And you go well, the spot thatI want for lease right now.
What am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Right.
It's not in the banker's bestinterest to push you into a loan
before you're ready.
If that's the case, you knowthat's not a good fit for us.
So we will protect you and wewant to get you cleaned up and
is ready to go as soon as we can.
So it's never too early.
Talk to a banker.
We'll take care of you.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So you'll know what needs to happen, kind of when it
needs to happen.
So part of that building a plan, do you think that's another
good component?
And that's part of talking witha banker, obviously.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Absolutely.
So two and three kind of buildinto that.
You're going to want to buildyour plan and then you're also
going to want to build a teamaround that.
So you know, when you thinkabout owning a practice and
building a plan, what area doyou want to be on, how big, what
services do you want to offer?
You know, definitely have thatin the back of your mind and
have a direction and a dream,because that's going guide you.
And then you know.
Number three is probably themost important is build your
(13:13):
team.
Start with your banker, getpre-qualified, and then you know
our job is to not only get youpre-qualified but also know
everyone who plays in theveterinary space.
That's why we hang out at theseconferences, so we know the real
estate brokers, the equipmentreps, the lab reps, the
contractors everyone who isgoing to be a good fit and
veterinary specific, to makesure that we're able to help and
(13:34):
surround you with the best teamyou have.
So not only are you talking andgetting all of your financials
in order, but you're alsosurrounding yourself with people
who believe in your dream andwho know about veterinary
specific businesses to make yourtransition as easy as possible.
You're going to have enough onyour plate and enough mental
headspace going on.
You want to surround yourselfwith people who are going to
help lighten that load and takecare of you.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So the taking care of part before as they're getting
started and this is just from myown experience in working with
veterinarians insurance isusually thought of last, but
it's one of the things that theyshould start thinking about
ahead of time, because they'regoing to have to do it to do
alone, right.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Correct, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And then an attorney and down the road a CPA who
specializes in veterinary.
So banker attorney, cpainsurance, to get things going
because there's so much help outthere in the animal health
space.
So whether it's pharmaceuticalreps, equipment reps, there's a
(14:31):
lot of resources there, but thebusiness side there aren't as
many.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Correct, and you know , on top of that, you hit them
all in the head.
It's insurances, it's attorneys, it's CPAs, lenders, even, at
that point, a real estate broker, someone you'd want to have
early in as well.
Yes, surrounding yourself withthe people who know the business
acumen is incredibly beneficialand should not be taken lightly
.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
So for my own entrepreneurial career, I don't
have to think about knowingeverything with tax and I don't
have to think about knowingeverything with attorneys.
I hire an attorney.
In fact, I'm going to be movingmy office this year, and so I
was on a call yesterday herefrom the conference with my
attorney reviewing a lease, andwhile I can read a lease and
(15:15):
kind of understand the generalcomponents of it, he looks at
these every single day and knowsexactly what's right or wrong
and say, hey, you know, we wantto try and get this put in the
lease.
So, relying on those experts inspecific areas that they're
great at and you might not begood at as a veterinarian,
because you're really good atanimal health You're not good at
some of the business stuffpotentially, and so that's where
(15:36):
the team comes into play.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to be honest to you, likeyou've got enough in your head,
do you really want to add leasereview and all of that in there
as well?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I don't, I'd rather just be on a 20 minute call pay
the attorney and say what do we?
Need to put it.
Let's get that in place.
So what's the average time?
You know, if I'm a veterinariantoday and I've got clean
financials and I got some moneyin the bank and I don't have a
lot of credit card debt and I'm,you know, regardless of student
(16:07):
loan debt and I look prettygood, what's kind of the
timeline that you see or youknow, not fastest or slowest,
but what's the average time ittakes to get a deal through the
bank?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
From application to opening doors probably a year
give or take a couple months.
So you said it earlier.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
it's never too early to talk to a banker, so not hey,
I want to buy this practice insix months.
It's I'm 18 months to 12 monthsout.
We should start theconversation now.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yes, yes, we love to help all of our vets, but the
ones who can also help us giveyou enough notice and enough
time is highly appreciated.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Sure, and what are some of the things that slow or
have caused problems?
From your experience workingwith veterinarians, where you
know a veterinarian is superpassionate, ready to sign a
lease on a space and somethingcomes up, what are some of the
common pitfalls out there thatslow, deals down or stop them
dead on their tracks?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
You know, a lot of times it can be getting the
financing in place, whetherthat's.
You know you need a couple moremonths of savings, or you know
you need to maybe pay off acredit card debt, something
beforehand.
That can be a part of it.
Another big piece honestly wesee a lot is the real estate.
Even if you find that space, ifyou don't have that lease
reviewed, that can take up sometime, and then if you have to go
(17:25):
back to the landlord andnegotiate, I would say that real
estate is really one of thebigger ones that can put a pause
on everything.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
In fact, I was working on one and the
veterinarian had signed thepurchase agreement and had
signed it three different timesand the landlord or the property
owner had said no, okay, we'regoing to change this thing.
He's like wait a second, I hada contract here.
So you know, the importantthing is to understand that, as
(17:54):
Trista mentioned, it's gettingthat conversation started.
As soon as you have the thoughtbubble above your head hey, I
think I want to do this.
I should probably talk to abanker and every bank's going to
have a different process andwhat their requirements are.
Just for again, for theveterinarian out there who's
thinking all right, I'm 18months out or I'm a year out,
(18:17):
what's some stuff, or what arethe requirements that you have
to get going to get pre-approved?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
yeah, absolutely so.
We're going to want you to knowyour production.
If you have dreams of being apractice owner, it's likely that
you're going to be workingfull-time for quite a few years
until you build that staff upand build that revenue.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So, knowing what you're capable of and being able
to do you know, prove that andshow that that's really
important so you're going towant to see what that
veterinarian's been producing,not just last month, but over a
little bit of time.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, absolutely Over the last year, I would say.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
What if they can't get those?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
You know what?
That's a great question.
We do have a baseline creditthat we give full-time
veterinarians and we understandthat sometimes you don't want to
ask your boss, you don't wantto feel like you're tipping them
off to your plans.
So if you can't get those,that's okay.
It doesn't stop an application.
But if it's something that youcan know and have a conversation
about or at least have like avague idea, that is helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Another thing we think of is we would like you to
see, we would like to see somecash reserves have a rainy day
fund.
We don't require any downpayment on our startup loans,
but what we do is we want tomake sure that, if the worst
thing happens and you need totake some time off, that you
still have the ability to putfood on your table.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
pay your bills, you got a little money in the bank.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Absolutely have some money in the bank.
So that's the reason that welook at the cash reserves we
want to make sure that you're agood steward and you're prepared
.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So cash reserves aren't one month's expenses.
For the purposes of taking outan $850,000 loan, cash reserves
is somewhere like $20,000 to$50,000.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So question would it be better off I was an associate
say well, I'm going to crushdown my student loan payments
versus putting money in the bankbecause I'm going to take out a
loan.
What's better to do, pay downstudent debt or put money in the
bank?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Keep that money in the bank.
Keep it there Again.
We expect you to have studentloans.
We know it's a part of life.
We know that you've spent anincredible amount of years
becoming doctors.
We expect you to have it.
I would rather you save up yourmoney and keep those student
loans as they are, because wecan account for that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So pay down the credit card debt.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Pay it down, get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Pay down the credit card debt, but leave the student
loan debt because it'sgenerally a pretty low interest
rate Correct and put money inthe bank.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Correct.
And then once you're an ownerand you're making even more
money, then you can jump awaywith those student loans, then
you can pay those down.
That's right, have a plan.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So that's a good reason to talk to a banker early
.
So you're not going.
Well, I just dumped all mysavings into student loans to
try and get my student loan downwhen really it doesn't matter.
Oh, we've got somebody backingup here Exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Live and in person, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Don't worry, we're not getting run over, all right.
So, tristan, why don't we giveour veterinarians one last tip?
As they're embarking on theirjourney to ownership from the
mind of a banker.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Mind of a banker, all right.
So if our three tips are talkto a banker, build your plan and
build your team, number fourtip and this is a personal tip
that I always give out is worksmarter, not harder.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, I like that one .
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, have open, honest, painful conversations.
If your friend has opened up apractice, talk to them about
what they did or didn't like.
If you're looking at insurancesand you don't know what's going
on, reach out to someone.
You know, when we're sittinghere and we're making
connections and we're talkingabout building a team, you're
going to want to surroundyourself with people who believe
in what you do and you're goingto want to surround yourself
with people who believe in whatyou do and you're going to want
(21:41):
to have those honest, vulnerableconversations, because being a
practice owner is hard enough.
Make sure that you surroundyourself with good people who
know it and you're able to beprepared and have those hard
conversations.
You don't want to beat yourhead against the wall.
People are doing this every day.
You've got a ton of resourcesout there.
Start looking.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So to close, why are you so passionate about helping
veterinarians?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I've got a dog who has gone through two TPLO
surgeries and I've got a 13 yearold cat and a three-year-old
COVID kitten, and they are thelights of my life.
I love my veterinarians so much.
They definitely love my animalsmore than they love me, but I'm
very passionate about thepeople who take care of my
babies in this community,because it's just an incredible
(22:24):
group of people doing incrediblethings daily.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Veterinarians are great people and they're easy to
do business with.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Absolutely.
I love veterinarians.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Well, I really appreciate the insight.
Tristan, We'll make sure tohave your contact information on
the show notes, but if somebodywants to reach out to you,
what's the best way to get ahold of you at Bank of America?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Feel free to shoot me over anemail.
It's first name, tristan,t-r-i-s-t-y-n period.
Last name G-I-E-S, atB-O-F-Acom.
Or give me a call 614-746-9431.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And you handle the Upper Northwest.
So basically Alaska over toMinnesota over to Minnesota.
Yeah, that's a big territory.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I'm on the road a lot , so if you need me, I'm likely
driving somewhere.
I cover Alaska, Washington,Oregon, Idaho, Montana, the
Dakotas, Minnesota and Iowa.
Woo, I got lots of sweatshirtsand lots of stickers from
different places.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Well, you need them for that part of the country.
Maybe not this winter.
Well, tristan, it's been greathaving you on the podcast and
really enjoyed our time together.
We had a great meal last nightconnecting and just looking
forward to helping veterinarianswith the assistance of Bank of
America.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Bill, Thank you for all you do.
You're a great partner.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Thanks, tristan.
As always, veterinarians makesure to like, share and comment
on the podcast.
It helps with the algorithm andtune in to the next episode of
the Veterinary Blueprintspodcast, where business and
entrepreneurship meet the animalhealth community.
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