February 26, 2025 • 24 mins
Dr. Temple Grandin shares insights on enhancing animal welfare through fear-free practices and understanding diverse thinking styles in veterinary medicine. She emphasizes the importance of exposure, mentorship, and empathy in creating positive experiences for animals in veterinary settings.
• Adoption of fear-free practices for better animal handling
• Importance of recognizing different thinking styles in veterinary staff
• Strategies for reducing fear in animals during veterinary visits
• Practical approaches to pain management in both pets and production animals
• Future of veterinary medicine and the impact of private equity on care quality
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bill Butler (00:01):
Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast
brought to you by Butler VetInsurance.
Hosted by Bill Butler, theVeterinary Blueprint Podcast is
for veterinarians and practicemanagers who are looking to
learn about working on theirpractice instead of in their
practice.
Each episode we will bring yousuccessful, proven blueprints
from others both inside andoutside the veterinary industry.
(00:21):
Welcome to today's episode andoutside the veterinary industry.
Welcome to today's episode.
Welcome to this episode of theVeterinary Blueprints podcast.
I'm your host, bill Butler, andthis is a special episode with
a special guest.
I'm honored to be joined by DrTemple Grandin.
She's a renowned animalbehavior expert, autism advocate
(00:44):
and professor at Colorado StateUniversity.
Diagnosed with autism at ayoung age, she utilized her
unique perspective torevolutionize humane livestock
handling designing facilitiesworldwide.
Her latest book, visualThinking the Hidden Gifts of
People who Think in Pictures,patterns and Abstractions,
delves into the strengths ofvisual thinkers and advocates
for their inclusion andeducation in the workplace.
(01:06):
Temple's life and work areportrayed in the Emmy
award-winning film TempleGrandin and in 2010, time named
her as one of the 100 mostinfluential people in the world.
So welcome, temple.
It's great to be here.
Thank you, so welcome.
Welcome.
Temple (01:22):
Temple.
It's great to be here.
Bill Butler (01:24):
Thank you.
So we got connected through DrMarty Becker, who is a connector
at large, and I'm just gratefulto have you on the podcast to
be able to share with ouraudience and what your thoughts
are in the current marketplacefor veterinarians and some
fear-free, which we'll dive into.
But my burning question tostart Temple is what, when you
(01:47):
were in high school or a youngwoman and you went to that farm
in New Hampshire, what was itabout horses that captivated you
at a young age?
Temple (01:55):
Well, I want to emphasize that students have to
get exposed to things to getinterested in them, and horses
and cattle I was exposed to bothas a teenager and I was not a
good student and they put me towork cleaning nine stalls every
day and taking care of thehorses and feeding the horses.
And then I also spent hoursgetting practicing for the 4-H
(02:17):
equitation show and for thetrail class, where you've got to
open the mailbox.
Spent a lot of time practicingthat.
I had a roommate, carol, and weboth rode horses together and
horses were a refuge away frombullying and teasing.
Bill Butler (02:35):
The cafeteria.
Temple (02:36):
That was like bullying and teasing.
That was the worst place.
And then I went out to myaunt's ranch at age 15, and I
got the love of the West startedand the beef cattle.
Again, students have to getexposed to things to get here.
Bill Butler (02:54):
Well, you mentioned being a poor student and I was
a very poor student in school aswell.
I had troubles in math andEnglish, probably some
undiagnosed ADHD and somespectrum issues that you know
you talk about in the book andit's a range of spectrum and I
really struggled to graduate.
My mom, as we had chatted aboutbefore coming on, was a special
(03:17):
education background, but Iwound up joining the military
and excelled when I was in themilitary because it was a very
structured environment.
I was able to excel because allthat what did you do in the
military?
I was in the infantry so I didyou know you go here and you
wear this.
You do that.
Temple (03:36):
I would tend to be attracted over to fixing
vehicles.
Sure, because in my book onvisual thinking I talk about a
kind of a thinker.
That's called an objectvisualizer.
And good with animals becauseanimals live in a sensory-based
world.
But object visualizer is alsovery good with mechanical things
, because you just see howsomething works.
(03:58):
But the weak area is algebra.
Algebra in the abstract justdoesn't make any sense to me.
Now I can learn a formula forsome specific thing, like sizing
an air cylinder on a piece ofequipment, because I then see
the piece of equipment.
And I worked with a lot of verytalented machinery designers
(04:19):
when I was out designingequipment.
They had big shops.
They couldn't do algebra either, but they could build anything.
And then another kind of mind isthe visual, spatial
mathematician.
They think in patterns.
Music and math go together.
They're the pattern thinker andthey do the types of
engineering that needmathematics.
But in order to build things,you need to have both visual
thinkers and the mathematicalthinkers.
(04:42):
And then, of course, there arethe word thinkers that think in
words.
Bill Butler (04:47):
Sure.
So you know, tying the kind oftwo first points together.
What are your thoughts onmaking sure exposing students to
things so that they know whatis a good fit for them?
How do you think helping youknow poor students who aren't
good?
I failed every algebra class.
I took my junior year of highschool kids with learning
(05:10):
disabilities, autism, who are onthe spectrum, to expose them to
as much as you can to find whatthey're good at.
Temple (05:16):
Well, you find out what they're good at, and it was
obvious when I was a little kidI was good at art and my mother
always encouraged that and sheencouraged me to do lots of
different media.
Then you have another kid'sgoing to take off with math and
we're not developing our mathkids.
I read all about the newChinese AI and the guy who
(05:36):
invented that was a total mathgeek.
I mean he did calculus for funwhen he was in ninth grade.
It's a math kid.
We're not developing them andthey get bored doing baby math
and they need to be moved ahead.
We need our different kinds ofminds.
We need my kind of mind.
Fix mechanical things, buildmechanical stuff.
(05:57):
If you like the water system towork, you're going to need my
kinds of mind.
And then the mathematician insomething like a food processing
plant designs a refrigeration,because that requires a lot more
math.
Bill Butler (06:12):
So, for a veterinary practice who has many
different people working at it,with different visual thinking
styles or not visual styles,different thinking styles what
do you recommend for, you know,a veterinary practice trying to
help work with a team acrossdifferent areas?
Temple (06:28):
Well, the first thing you have to realize is that
different thinking exists.
I didn't know that other peoplethought in words, until I was
in my late 30s, that was a shockto me and when I wrote the book
on visual thinking I wrote therough drafts of the chapters.
They were kind of disorganizedand Betsy, my wonderful verbal
co-author, she smoothed them allout.
(06:50):
So, that's the different kindsof minds working together.
Now you might have a veterinarytechnician who's a super visual
thinker.
That's just your animalwhisperer.
Bill Butler (06:59):
Gotcha.
Temple (06:59):
Because they they just, you know, since they think in a
sensory way, they just totallyrelate to the animals.
And I'm worried that a lot ofour educational programs are
screening out the objectvisualizers.
Because I can't do algebra, Inever have to do it in the
abstract.
And then I go out into thefield and I find people that own
giant metal shops and theycan't do algebra either.
(07:22):
Then there's other things.
You need algebra for Chemistry.
Yes, you need algebra.
I'm not going to be a chemist,but recognizing that we need
these different skills.
As I travel around I'm findingbroken elevators, broken
escalators, everywhere.
They're just not being fixedBecause there aren't enough
(07:46):
mechanical minds, visualthinkers, out there.
They probably would findthey're a lot more interesting
and I'm a big believer show kidslots of different things.
I heard an interestinginterview on the radio today.
A school in Colorado was gettinghigh school kids out doing
internships, maybe in a lawoffice maybe at a veterinary
(08:06):
clinic, maybe at a kindergarten,in different kinds of things,
where they could try ondifferent jobs.
Well, I think that's justwonderful.
That's critical, I want toencourage that and I was greatly
helped by mentors and andthere's a lot of problems with,
you know, short budgets andstuff in schools.
(08:26):
You know, maybe we could tapinto some of the retirees.
You know retired chemists tocome in and teach chemistry.
You know somebody retired froma retired veterinarian to come
in and teach a veterinary class.
Right now I'm 77.
I can't physically do thethings I used to do.
Bill Butler (08:43):
Yeah, but I can still teach.
Temple (08:45):
I don't climb up feed notes anymore to take a picture
that I wouldn't be caught deaddoing now?
Bill Butler (08:50):
Sure, one of the best things that I did in high
school is I did a mentorshipprogram for a trimester with a
photographer and actually got togo leave high school and go
work with a photographer as partof my photography class and
photography mentorship, and thatwas just.
It was so awesome being exposedto that while I was in school.
(09:11):
So I think that's a big piecethat's missing in education now.
Temple (09:20):
One of the things I'd be doing is putting all the
hands-on classes back in.
We've got kids growing up todaythat have never used a ruler.
I've had them in my classbecause they have to do a scale
drawing.
I had a student in my class.
I tried to explain to her thatif a cattle chute is 30 inches
wide, that's two foot six.
She didn't understand that.
She's a college student, oh my.
Maybe, they can do algebra, buthow about some of the practical
(09:41):
stuff?
Bill Butler (09:42):
Absolutely the simple math.
So we were introduced to eachother from Dr Marty Becker and I
know that you've been involvedin Fear Free and some of the
things that he's doing.
What are you doing withfear-free and how do you see
that as important to well-beingof animals and pets?
Temple (10:00):
I think it's really, really important and we've had a
similar movement in cattlehandling low-stress cattle
handling and one of theadvantage is less accidents to
both animals and people.
You're probably going to haveless dog bites.
If you're doing doing fear freeand what I have learned on
improving animal handling, Idon't care if it's handling a
(10:22):
dog or handling cattle.
The top manager of the placehas got to get totally behind it
and want to do it and want tomake it work.
Also, when you're learning lowstress methods, it is slower
when you're learning.
Now, once you learn it, it'sgoing to be faster.
There's an old saying in cattlehandling, slow is faster, but
(10:44):
it is going to take time tolearn it.
And then, once you learn it,it's going to be a whole lot
better and you're going towonder why did you do the old
ways of just forcing a dog down?
You also need to be workingwith owners of puppies to get
their puppy used to beinghandled by strange people, and
then going to the vet clinicscan be less scary, used to
(11:05):
having its paws held for treats,so it's desensitized to some of
these things.
Bill Butler (11:11):
Sure, I was watching one of the videos with
you and Dr Becker.
Actually ata practice andyou're talking about animals,
fear of falling, and the firstthing we do is we put them up on
a slippery table or or the the,because they are a visual, they
see something and something badhappens and they take a
snapshot of that.
Having different exam roomswhat are some simple things that
(11:31):
practices can do.
Temple (11:34):
Let's get a non-slip floor on the exam table.
And if you don't want to bother, let's say the busy
veterinarian doesn't want tobother washing the mats.
Well, you can have the ownerbring in a mat they bought from
Walmart with the rubber backingand then they take it home and
they clean it and it should be amat that the puppy is used to.
That's a very, very simple thingyou can do, and it's equally
(11:55):
important for cattle that have anon-slip floor and things like
the table jiggles that makestheir footing seem unstable.
Animals don't like that.
These are simple things thatyou can do.
Another thing I would not haveon the wall is big dog heads
with staring eyes.
Those pictures may look cute topeople, but they're threatening
(12:18):
to the pets.
Bill Butler (12:19):
Sure, and I know that if there's an incident in a
specific room, to document thatand then maybe have each exam
room look different.
Could you talk about that andwhy?
That's important for animals.
Temple (12:31):
Yeah, animals can get fear memories based on a bad
person, a bad place, somethingthey were seeing right when
something bad happened.
I know a dog who was terrifiedof men wearing baseball hats.
Baseball hats were bad.
Well, it was a rescue and itwas probably abused by a man
(12:53):
wearing a baseball hat.
That's an example of a visualfear memory.
There's dogs that have had badexperiences at the veterinary
clinic and as soon as the carmakes certain turns, it knows
where it's going.
Sure, you know that would be anexample of a fear memory.
They'll associate a place, aperson or maybe a piece of
equipment with something bad.
(13:14):
And it's very important that ananimal's first experience with
a new person, a new place, a newcar be a good first experience.
Sure, I'm going to teach thedog that it creates a good place
, because if it's firstexperience let's say with your
car is a really bad firstexperience, then it's going to
(13:34):
be afraid of your car.
Bill Butler (13:36):
Not getting in the car.
Temple (13:37):
Well, and then if you get a different car, it might be
somewhat better.
Okay, because sometimes thosevisual experiences are kind of
specific.
Bill Butler (13:45):
Okay, so my mom had her dog in it was a Gordon
Sutter and it must have had abad experience because they went
up the stairs at the practicewhen they brought it in and the
dog would not go down the stairswhen they were leaving.
And my mom said afterwards likewhat happened between then and
now that the dog doesn't want togo up or down the stairs.
Temple (14:08):
Did it ever fall downstairs?
Bill Butler (14:10):
Well, we don't know .
Temple (14:12):
It's a rescue, you don't know.
Bill Butler (14:14):
No, and it was in between, so it must have
happened at the practice, whileit was under treatment or
something.
Temple (14:20):
I don't know, but it may have fallen down the stairs.
Yeah, Another question thatcomes up is should the vet wear
the white coat?
It all depends upon how the petperceives the white coat.
If the first experience of thewhite coat is pets and treating,
you know, typical fear-free,then the white coat's going to
be a good thing.
Bill Butler (14:38):
Yeah.
Temple (14:39):
If the white coat's associated with being roughly
handled and held down, then takethe coat off.
Another thing that can help ischanging the location of where
you do the exam.
Maybe do it out in the waitingroom, do it out in the parking
lot.
That's because these fear.
Memories do tend to be specific.
Bill Butler (14:55):
Okay, and I know that there's some things on the
horizon that you're working onwith Dr Becker, as it relates to
pain-free or some foodproduction stuff.
What's on the horizon and whatwould you like to see happen in
the world of animal health?
Temple (15:09):
Well, animals definitely do feel pain.
I couldn't believe it.
Years ago they used to dosurgery on infants just with a
paralytic agent.
They didn't think little babiesfelt pain.
This is ridiculous.
And yeah, animals definitelyfeel pain.
Yeah, you need to be givingthem analgesics and and things
like that to relieve pain.
(15:30):
And it's the same thing incattle.
And the bad thing we've gotwith our farm animals, since
they're prey species, they tendto cover up the fact they're
hurting.
Bill Butler (15:44):
So we've got with our farm animals, since they're
prey species, they tend to coverup the fact they're hurting,
and so you need to spy on themwith video cameras so that they
don't think anybody's watching,and then they're more likely to
show the pain behaviors.
Okay, how?
How would that relate to aveterinary practice, or how
would you relate that to aveterinary practice?
Temple (15:54):
well, I think we need to be doing it.
You know a lot.
You know.
Make sure they're givenadequate painkillers for
different things that we do.
One of the problems we have outon the farm is controlled
substances out on a farm.
That's not something you wantto have.
Bill Butler (16:08):
Okay.
Temple (16:10):
There's too many abuse potential things.
Bill Butler (16:14):
Gotcha.
Well, in your book Thinking inPictures my Life with Autism,
you talk about believing that aplace that an animal dies is
sacred and bringing ritual intoconventional slaughter plants
and can be used to help shapepeople's behavior.
How is that important in thefood production?
But then also, how can that beadapted to a modern veterinary
(16:35):
practice?
Temple (16:37):
Well, let's give the dog a good experience.
I get asked all the time docattle know they're going to get
slaughtered?
And I found they behavedexactly the same way at the
slaughterhouse, going up thechute as they did in the
veterinary chute.
And when you look at theresearch, the stress levels
range from high to low dependingupon how good their handling
was, but it was the same range.
(16:58):
Cattle are more afraid of asharp shadow on the floor, a
reflection, seeing motionthrough a crack in the side of
the chute, seeing people upahead, coats on fences.
And you get rid of thesedistractions, then things can
really improve.
Bill Butler (17:16):
Sure.
So how would that relate to aveterinary practice and having
you know a specific room and anexperience that's different than
you know normal or you know forthe team and the pet, but also
the owners?
Temple (17:31):
Well, the important thing is to have you know you
want a calm animal coming in, somake that first experience
really good pets and treats andall that kind of stuff and then
you obviously want to get themvaccinated right away so you
might bring the puppy back inthat afternoon get the vaccine
done.
sure, you don't want to waitvery long on that because that
(17:51):
could be.
You know that could be aproblem, but we're working with
zoo animals.
One of the things we found isyou actually teach your animal
to tolerate a pinch that's goingto be worse than the injection,
and they're willing to come into get the yummy treats.
Bill Butler (18:10):
Sure, one thing I've noticed in zoo veterinary
stuff like there is so muchtreats and foods happening at a
zoo with those animals versuswhat's happening at a veterinary
practice with what you know DrBecker is trying to implement
with Fear Free across thecountry.
Temple (18:27):
Well, I've been to veterinary conferences and I've
got a picture of a lion puttingits paw up onto a grating and
having its nails trimmed whileit's being fed neat meatballs
out of some tongs, and I showedit at a veterinary clinic and
sometimes I kind of shocked.
There's a lion there trained toget a treat and put its paw up
(18:49):
on a screen so its nails can betrimmed.
Bill Butler (18:52):
I'm making a note about.
We have a tuxedo cat Louie andI'm going to make a note about
that to try and sort that outfor him.
Temple (19:01):
Well, they train it to jump up on a screen and put its
paws against the screen, wow.
And then you feed it treats,and then, of course, the nails
come through the screen.
Bill Butler (19:12):
Absolutely.
Temple (19:13):
And it makes it easy to trim them.
Bill Butler (19:16):
What are your thoughts on the future of
veterinary medicine overall?
You had talked about I heardyou speak at the Minnesota
Veterinary Medical Associationand you talked about not
screening out candidates andfinding the right people.
Where do you see the future ofveterinary medicine?
Temple (19:31):
Well, we need to find the right people.
I know there's a lot ofveterinarians that are getting
totally stressed out on longhours.
I don't really like the factthat private equity has bought
up vet clinics and also boughtup people clinics too, you know,
then it's just rush, rush, rushand not take the time to see
the patient and do things reallyright.
(19:54):
I'm not a fan of that.
Another one of my very bigconcerns is some of the dogs
we're breeding uh, bulldogs thatcan't breathe.
I have problems with that.
We're also breeding some cattlewith some problems.
We're breeding so much for meattraits they're getting crooked
feet or they're getting heartissues.
You know, because you've justpushed the biology too hard and
(20:17):
I really feel strong.
We have got to breed animalsthat function, whether it's a
livestock animal or it's a pet.
Bill Butler (20:25):
Sure, and in closing Temple, I just want to
say thank you again for takingthe time to join me on the
podcast and share some insightswith our guests.
If you were starting out inyour animal behavior career and
everything over, what would youlike to change or what would you
(20:47):
have done differently?
Temple (20:50):
Well, one thing that's happening in the cattle industry
is handling has gotten a wholelot better.
That's really good, and moreand more people are adopting
fear-free.
I think that's really a goodthing.
And there's some real problemanimals where you need to give
them a sedative.
The dog's just been tootraumatized.
But let's say with the newpuppies, let's work on training
them and doing them right.
Get them used to lots ofdifferent people, handling them
(21:12):
gently, getting treats, and thenyou won't have to give them
sedatives but there's sometraumatized pets where you're
just going to have to.
I know well, let's.
This cat's just so traumatizedyou're going to have to give it
sedatives sure but I I want towork on the behavior first.
Because, uh, first of allcattle.
We're not allowed to give themsedatives because they're food
(21:32):
animal absolutely, um.
Bill Butler (21:35):
In closing, I just again I want to say thank you.
We'll get some links up and Iknow that you have a lot of
speaking.
You're out on the circuitspeaking many, many places and
we'll get the list up of ofplaces you're speaking all
across the country, uh, in thecoming months, and I know that
that list is out on your websiteas part of the autism uh, uh,
autism research autism and we weneed the skills of people that
(21:58):
were autistic.
Temple (21:58):
Einstein was autistic.
I worked a lot of.
I've worked with some ranchersI'm pretty sure were autistic.
Bill Gates now has a new bookand he says he'd be diagnosed
with autism today if he was achild today.
Bill Butler (22:16):
If there was one piece of advice that you could
give parents out there to helpwith their children if they're
experiencing difficulties, whatwould it be?
Temple (22:25):
All right, I'll tell you how to get them off the video
games Car mechanics.
It's actually been verysuccessful and I think working
with animals also could do that.
You've got to replace the videogames with something else and
there's been five or six caseswhere young adults were weaned
off of video games with carmechanics and they found that
that was more interesting and weneed the skills of these people
(22:48):
.
Well, during covet I heard thatthe horse technician repaired
all the anesthesia machinesduring COVID.
Well, those are strictlymechanical devices, so he just
figured out how to fix them.
Bill Butler (23:02):
Sure Well, thank you for your time, Temple.
I really appreciate it andwe'll hopefully see you again
very soon.
Temple (23:12):
Well, no, and we need to get more and more veterinarians
getting into fear-free and intolow-stress ways and make sure
that first visit is a real goodtime.
Bill Butler (23:23):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much.
Temple (23:26):
Okay, great to talk to you.
Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast
brought to you by Butler VetInsurance.
Hosted by Bill Butler, theVeterinary Blueprint Podcast is
for veterinarians and practicemanagers who are looking to
learn about working on theirpractice instead of in their
practice.
Each episode we will bring yousuccessful, proven blueprints
from others both inside andoutside the veterinary industry.
(00:21):
Welcome to today's episode andoutside the veterinary industry.
Welcome to today's episode.
Welcome to this episode of theVeterinary Blueprints podcast.
I'm your host, bill Butler, andthis is a special episode with
a special guest.
I'm honored to be joined by DrTemple Grandin.
She's a renowned animalbehavior expert, autism advocate
(00:44):
and professor at Colorado StateUniversity.
Diagnosed with autism at ayoung age, she utilized her
unique perspective torevolutionize humane livestock
handling designing facilitiesworldwide.
Her latest book, visualThinking the Hidden Gifts of
People who Think in Pictures,patterns and Abstractions,
delves into the strengths ofvisual thinkers and advocates
for their inclusion andeducation in the workplace.
(01:06):
Temple's life and work areportrayed in the Emmy
award-winning film TempleGrandin and in 2010, time named
her as one of the 100 mostinfluential people in the world.
So welcome, temple.
It's great to be here.
Thank you, so welcome.
Welcome.
Temple (01:22):
Temple.
It's great to be here.
Bill Butler (01:24):
Thank you.
So we got connected through DrMarty Becker, who is a connector
at large, and I'm just gratefulto have you on the podcast to
be able to share with ouraudience and what your thoughts
are in the current marketplacefor veterinarians and some
fear-free, which we'll dive into.
But my burning question tostart Temple is what, when you
(01:47):
were in high school or a youngwoman and you went to that farm
in New Hampshire, what was itabout horses that captivated you
at a young age?
Temple (01:55):
Well, I want to emphasize that students have to
get exposed to things to getinterested in them, and horses
and cattle I was exposed to bothas a teenager and I was not a
good student and they put me towork cleaning nine stalls every
day and taking care of thehorses and feeding the horses.
And then I also spent hoursgetting practicing for the 4-H
(02:17):
equitation show and for thetrail class, where you've got to
open the mailbox.
Spent a lot of time practicingthat.
I had a roommate, carol, and weboth rode horses together and
horses were a refuge away frombullying and teasing.
Bill Butler (02:35):
The cafeteria.
Temple (02:36):
That was like bullying and teasing.
That was the worst place.
And then I went out to myaunt's ranch at age 15, and I
got the love of the West startedand the beef cattle.
Again, students have to getexposed to things to get here.
Bill Butler (02:54):
Well, you mentioned being a poor student and I was
a very poor student in school aswell.
I had troubles in math andEnglish, probably some
undiagnosed ADHD and somespectrum issues that you know
you talk about in the book andit's a range of spectrum and I
really struggled to graduate.
My mom, as we had chatted aboutbefore coming on, was a special
(03:17):
education background, but Iwound up joining the military
and excelled when I was in themilitary because it was a very
structured environment.
I was able to excel because allthat what did you do in the
military?
I was in the infantry so I didyou know you go here and you
wear this.
You do that.
Temple (03:36):
I would tend to be attracted over to fixing
vehicles.
Sure, because in my book onvisual thinking I talk about a
kind of a thinker.
That's called an objectvisualizer.
And good with animals becauseanimals live in a sensory-based
world.
But object visualizer is alsovery good with mechanical things
, because you just see howsomething works.
(03:58):
But the weak area is algebra.
Algebra in the abstract justdoesn't make any sense to me.
Now I can learn a formula forsome specific thing, like sizing
an air cylinder on a piece ofequipment, because I then see
the piece of equipment.
And I worked with a lot of verytalented machinery designers
(04:19):
when I was out designingequipment.
They had big shops.
They couldn't do algebra either, but they could build anything.
And then another kind of mind isthe visual, spatial
mathematician.
They think in patterns.
Music and math go together.
They're the pattern thinker andthey do the types of
engineering that needmathematics.
But in order to build things,you need to have both visual
thinkers and the mathematicalthinkers.
(04:42):
And then, of course, there arethe word thinkers that think in
words.
Bill Butler (04:47):
Sure.
So you know, tying the kind oftwo first points together.
What are your thoughts onmaking sure exposing students to
things so that they know whatis a good fit for them?
How do you think helping youknow poor students who aren't
good?
I failed every algebra class.
I took my junior year of highschool kids with learning
(05:10):
disabilities, autism, who are onthe spectrum, to expose them to
as much as you can to find whatthey're good at.
Temple (05:16):
Well, you find out what they're good at, and it was
obvious when I was a little kidI was good at art and my mother
always encouraged that and sheencouraged me to do lots of
different media.
Then you have another kid'sgoing to take off with math and
we're not developing our mathkids.
I read all about the newChinese AI and the guy who
(05:36):
invented that was a total mathgeek.
I mean he did calculus for funwhen he was in ninth grade.
It's a math kid.
We're not developing them andthey get bored doing baby math
and they need to be moved ahead.
We need our different kinds ofminds.
We need my kind of mind.
Fix mechanical things, buildmechanical stuff.
(05:57):
If you like the water system towork, you're going to need my
kinds of mind.
And then the mathematician insomething like a food processing
plant designs a refrigeration,because that requires a lot more
math.
Bill Butler (06:12):
So, for a veterinary practice who has many
different people working at it,with different visual thinking
styles or not visual styles,different thinking styles what
do you recommend for, you know,a veterinary practice trying to
help work with a team acrossdifferent areas?
Temple (06:28):
Well, the first thing you have to realize is that
different thinking exists.
I didn't know that other peoplethought in words, until I was
in my late 30s, that was a shockto me and when I wrote the book
on visual thinking I wrote therough drafts of the chapters.
They were kind of disorganizedand Betsy, my wonderful verbal
co-author, she smoothed them allout.
(06:50):
So, that's the different kindsof minds working together.
Now you might have a veterinarytechnician who's a super visual
thinker.
That's just your animalwhisperer.
Bill Butler (06:59):
Gotcha.
Temple (06:59):
Because they they just, you know, since they think in a
sensory way, they just totallyrelate to the animals.
And I'm worried that a lot ofour educational programs are
screening out the objectvisualizers.
Because I can't do algebra, Inever have to do it in the
abstract.
And then I go out into thefield and I find people that own
giant metal shops and theycan't do algebra either.
(07:22):
Then there's other things.
You need algebra for Chemistry.
Yes, you need algebra.
I'm not going to be a chemist,but recognizing that we need
these different skills.
As I travel around I'm findingbroken elevators, broken
escalators, everywhere.
They're just not being fixedBecause there aren't enough
(07:46):
mechanical minds, visualthinkers, out there.
They probably would findthey're a lot more interesting
and I'm a big believer show kidslots of different things.
I heard an interestinginterview on the radio today.
A school in Colorado was gettinghigh school kids out doing
internships, maybe in a lawoffice maybe at a veterinary
(08:06):
clinic, maybe at a kindergarten,in different kinds of things,
where they could try ondifferent jobs.
Well, I think that's justwonderful.
That's critical, I want toencourage that and I was greatly
helped by mentors and andthere's a lot of problems with,
you know, short budgets andstuff in schools.
(08:26):
You know, maybe we could tapinto some of the retirees.
You know retired chemists tocome in and teach chemistry.
You know somebody retired froma retired veterinarian to come
in and teach a veterinary class.
Right now I'm 77.
I can't physically do thethings I used to do.
Bill Butler (08:43):
Yeah, but I can still teach.
Temple (08:45):
I don't climb up feed notes anymore to take a picture
that I wouldn't be caught deaddoing now?
Bill Butler (08:50):
Sure, one of the best things that I did in high
school is I did a mentorshipprogram for a trimester with a
photographer and actually got togo leave high school and go
work with a photographer as partof my photography class and
photography mentorship, and thatwas just.
It was so awesome being exposedto that while I was in school.
(09:11):
So I think that's a big piecethat's missing in education now.
Temple (09:20):
One of the things I'd be doing is putting all the
hands-on classes back in.
We've got kids growing up todaythat have never used a ruler.
I've had them in my classbecause they have to do a scale
drawing.
I had a student in my class.
I tried to explain to her thatif a cattle chute is 30 inches
wide, that's two foot six.
She didn't understand that.
She's a college student, oh my.
Maybe, they can do algebra, buthow about some of the practical
(09:41):
stuff?
Bill Butler (09:42):
Absolutely the simple math.
So we were introduced to eachother from Dr Marty Becker and I
know that you've been involvedin Fear Free and some of the
things that he's doing.
What are you doing withfear-free and how do you see
that as important to well-beingof animals and pets?
Temple (10:00):
I think it's really, really important and we've had a
similar movement in cattlehandling low-stress cattle
handling and one of theadvantage is less accidents to
both animals and people.
You're probably going to haveless dog bites.
If you're doing doing fear freeand what I have learned on
improving animal handling, Idon't care if it's handling a
(10:22):
dog or handling cattle.
The top manager of the placehas got to get totally behind it
and want to do it and want tomake it work.
Also, when you're learning lowstress methods, it is slower
when you're learning.
Now, once you learn it, it'sgoing to be faster.
There's an old saying in cattlehandling, slow is faster, but
(10:44):
it is going to take time tolearn it.
And then, once you learn it,it's going to be a whole lot
better and you're going towonder why did you do the old
ways of just forcing a dog down?
You also need to be workingwith owners of puppies to get
their puppy used to beinghandled by strange people, and
then going to the vet clinicscan be less scary, used to
(11:05):
having its paws held for treats,so it's desensitized to some of
these things.
Bill Butler (11:11):
Sure, I was watching one of the videos with
you and Dr Becker.
Actually ata practice andyou're talking about animals,
fear of falling, and the firstthing we do is we put them up on
a slippery table or or the the,because they are a visual, they
see something and something badhappens and they take a
snapshot of that.
Having different exam roomswhat are some simple things that
(11:31):
practices can do.
Temple (11:34):
Let's get a non-slip floor on the exam table.
And if you don't want to bother, let's say the busy
veterinarian doesn't want tobother washing the mats.
Well, you can have the ownerbring in a mat they bought from
Walmart with the rubber backingand then they take it home and
they clean it and it should be amat that the puppy is used to.
That's a very, very simple thingyou can do, and it's equally
(11:55):
important for cattle that have anon-slip floor and things like
the table jiggles that makestheir footing seem unstable.
Animals don't like that.
These are simple things thatyou can do.
Another thing I would not haveon the wall is big dog heads
with staring eyes.
Those pictures may look cute topeople, but they're threatening
(12:18):
to the pets.
Bill Butler (12:19):
Sure, and I know that if there's an incident in a
specific room, to document thatand then maybe have each exam
room look different.
Could you talk about that andwhy?
That's important for animals.
Temple (12:31):
Yeah, animals can get fear memories based on a bad
person, a bad place, somethingthey were seeing right when
something bad happened.
I know a dog who was terrifiedof men wearing baseball hats.
Baseball hats were bad.
Well, it was a rescue and itwas probably abused by a man
(12:53):
wearing a baseball hat.
That's an example of a visualfear memory.
There's dogs that have had badexperiences at the veterinary
clinic and as soon as the carmakes certain turns, it knows
where it's going.
Sure, you know that would be anexample of a fear memory.
They'll associate a place, aperson or maybe a piece of
equipment with something bad.
(13:14):
And it's very important that ananimal's first experience with
a new person, a new place, a newcar be a good first experience.
Sure, I'm going to teach thedog that it creates a good place
, because if it's firstexperience let's say with your
car is a really bad firstexperience, then it's going to
(13:34):
be afraid of your car.
Bill Butler (13:36):
Not getting in the car.
Temple (13:37):
Well, and then if you get a different car, it might be
somewhat better.
Okay, because sometimes thosevisual experiences are kind of
specific.
Bill Butler (13:45):
Okay, so my mom had her dog in it was a Gordon
Sutter and it must have had abad experience because they went
up the stairs at the practicewhen they brought it in and the
dog would not go down the stairswhen they were leaving.
And my mom said afterwards likewhat happened between then and
now that the dog doesn't want togo up or down the stairs.
Temple (14:08):
Did it ever fall downstairs?
Bill Butler (14:10):
Well, we don't know .
Temple (14:12):
It's a rescue, you don't know.
Bill Butler (14:14):
No, and it was in between, so it must have
happened at the practice, whileit was under treatment or
something.
Temple (14:20):
I don't know, but it may have fallen down the stairs.
Yeah, Another question thatcomes up is should the vet wear
the white coat?
It all depends upon how the petperceives the white coat.
If the first experience of thewhite coat is pets and treating,
you know, typical fear-free,then the white coat's going to
be a good thing.
Bill Butler (14:38):
Yeah.
Temple (14:39):
If the white coat's associated with being roughly
handled and held down, then takethe coat off.
Another thing that can help ischanging the location of where
you do the exam.
Maybe do it out in the waitingroom, do it out in the parking
lot.
That's because these fear.
Memories do tend to be specific.
Bill Butler (14:55):
Okay, and I know that there's some things on the
horizon that you're working onwith Dr Becker, as it relates to
pain-free or some foodproduction stuff.
What's on the horizon and whatwould you like to see happen in
the world of animal health?
Temple (15:09):
Well, animals definitely do feel pain.
I couldn't believe it.
Years ago they used to dosurgery on infants just with a
paralytic agent.
They didn't think little babiesfelt pain.
This is ridiculous.
And yeah, animals definitelyfeel pain.
Yeah, you need to be givingthem analgesics and and things
like that to relieve pain.
(15:30):
And it's the same thing incattle.
And the bad thing we've gotwith our farm animals, since
they're prey species, they tendto cover up the fact they're
hurting.
Bill Butler (15:44):
So we've got with our farm animals, since they're
prey species, they tend to coverup the fact they're hurting,
and so you need to spy on themwith video cameras so that they
don't think anybody's watching,and then they're more likely to
show the pain behaviors.
Okay, how?
How would that relate to aveterinary practice, or how
would you relate that to aveterinary practice?
Temple (15:54):
well, I think we need to be doing it.
You know a lot.
You know.
Make sure they're givenadequate painkillers for
different things that we do.
One of the problems we have outon the farm is controlled
substances out on a farm.
That's not something you wantto have.
Bill Butler (16:08):
Okay.
Temple (16:10):
There's too many abuse potential things.
Bill Butler (16:14):
Gotcha.
Well, in your book Thinking inPictures my Life with Autism,
you talk about believing that aplace that an animal dies is
sacred and bringing ritual intoconventional slaughter plants
and can be used to help shapepeople's behavior.
How is that important in thefood production?
But then also, how can that beadapted to a modern veterinary
(16:35):
practice?
Temple (16:37):
Well, let's give the dog a good experience.
I get asked all the time docattle know they're going to get
slaughtered?
And I found they behavedexactly the same way at the
slaughterhouse, going up thechute as they did in the
veterinary chute.
And when you look at theresearch, the stress levels
range from high to low dependingupon how good their handling
was, but it was the same range.
(16:58):
Cattle are more afraid of asharp shadow on the floor, a
reflection, seeing motionthrough a crack in the side of
the chute, seeing people upahead, coats on fences.
And you get rid of thesedistractions, then things can
really improve.
Bill Butler (17:16):
Sure.
So how would that relate to aveterinary practice and having
you know a specific room and anexperience that's different than
you know normal or you know forthe team and the pet, but also
the owners?
Temple (17:31):
Well, the important thing is to have you know you
want a calm animal coming in, somake that first experience
really good pets and treats andall that kind of stuff and then
you obviously want to get themvaccinated right away so you
might bring the puppy back inthat afternoon get the vaccine
done.
sure, you don't want to waitvery long on that because that
(17:51):
could be.
You know that could be aproblem, but we're working with
zoo animals.
One of the things we found isyou actually teach your animal
to tolerate a pinch that's goingto be worse than the injection,
and they're willing to come into get the yummy treats.
Bill Butler (18:10):
Sure, one thing I've noticed in zoo veterinary
stuff like there is so muchtreats and foods happening at a
zoo with those animals versuswhat's happening at a veterinary
practice with what you know DrBecker is trying to implement
with Fear Free across thecountry.
Temple (18:27):
Well, I've been to veterinary conferences and I've
got a picture of a lion puttingits paw up onto a grating and
having its nails trimmed whileit's being fed neat meatballs
out of some tongs, and I showedit at a veterinary clinic and
sometimes I kind of shocked.
There's a lion there trained toget a treat and put its paw up
(18:49):
on a screen so its nails can betrimmed.
Bill Butler (18:52):
I'm making a note about.
We have a tuxedo cat Louie andI'm going to make a note about
that to try and sort that outfor him.
Temple (19:01):
Well, they train it to jump up on a screen and put its
paws against the screen, wow.
And then you feed it treats,and then, of course, the nails
come through the screen.
Bill Butler (19:12):
Absolutely.
Temple (19:13):
And it makes it easy to trim them.
Bill Butler (19:16):
What are your thoughts on the future of
veterinary medicine overall?
You had talked about I heardyou speak at the Minnesota
Veterinary Medical Associationand you talked about not
screening out candidates andfinding the right people.
Where do you see the future ofveterinary medicine?
Temple (19:31):
Well, we need to find the right people.
I know there's a lot ofveterinarians that are getting
totally stressed out on longhours.
I don't really like the factthat private equity has bought
up vet clinics and also boughtup people clinics too, you know,
then it's just rush, rush, rushand not take the time to see
the patient and do things reallyright.
(19:54):
I'm not a fan of that.
Another one of my very bigconcerns is some of the dogs
we're breeding uh, bulldogs thatcan't breathe.
I have problems with that.
We're also breeding some cattlewith some problems.
We're breeding so much for meattraits they're getting crooked
feet or they're getting heartissues.
You know, because you've justpushed the biology too hard and
(20:17):
I really feel strong.
We have got to breed animalsthat function, whether it's a
livestock animal or it's a pet.
Bill Butler (20:25):
Sure, and in closing Temple, I just want to
say thank you again for takingthe time to join me on the
podcast and share some insightswith our guests.
If you were starting out inyour animal behavior career and
everything over, what would youlike to change or what would you
(20:47):
have done differently?
Temple (20:50):
Well, one thing that's happening in the cattle industry
is handling has gotten a wholelot better.
That's really good, and moreand more people are adopting
fear-free.
I think that's really a goodthing.
And there's some real problemanimals where you need to give
them a sedative.
The dog's just been tootraumatized.
But let's say with the newpuppies, let's work on training
them and doing them right.
Get them used to lots ofdifferent people, handling them
(21:12):
gently, getting treats, and thenyou won't have to give them
sedatives but there's sometraumatized pets where you're
just going to have to.
I know well, let's.
This cat's just so traumatizedyou're going to have to give it
sedatives sure but I I want towork on the behavior first.
Because, uh, first of allcattle.
We're not allowed to give themsedatives because they're food
(21:32):
animal absolutely, um.
Bill Butler (21:35):
In closing, I just again I want to say thank you.
We'll get some links up and Iknow that you have a lot of
speaking.
You're out on the circuitspeaking many, many places and
we'll get the list up of ofplaces you're speaking all
across the country, uh, in thecoming months, and I know that
that list is out on your websiteas part of the autism uh, uh,
autism research autism and we weneed the skills of people that
(21:58):
were autistic.
Temple (21:58):
Einstein was autistic.
I worked a lot of.
I've worked with some ranchersI'm pretty sure were autistic.
Bill Gates now has a new bookand he says he'd be diagnosed
with autism today if he was achild today.
Bill Butler (22:16):
If there was one piece of advice that you could
give parents out there to helpwith their children if they're
experiencing difficulties, whatwould it be?
Temple (22:25):
All right, I'll tell you how to get them off the video
games Car mechanics.
It's actually been verysuccessful and I think working
with animals also could do that.
You've got to replace the videogames with something else and
there's been five or six caseswhere young adults were weaned
off of video games with carmechanics and they found that
that was more interesting and weneed the skills of these people
(22:48):
.
Well, during covet I heard thatthe horse technician repaired
all the anesthesia machinesduring COVID.
Well, those are strictlymechanical devices, so he just
figured out how to fix them.
Bill Butler (23:02):
Sure Well, thank you for your time, Temple.
I really appreciate it andwe'll hopefully see you again
very soon.
Temple (23:12):
Well, no, and we need to get more and more veterinarians
getting into fear-free and intolow-stress ways and make sure
that first visit is a real goodtime.
Bill Butler (23:23):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much.
Temple (23:26):
Okay, great to talk to you.
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