March 13, 2024 • 20 mins
An innovative veterinary pharmaceutical clinical trials program has been operating at a central Illinois pet clinic for more than 10 years, allowing pet owners to enroll their dogs and cats in breakthrough drug treatment research.
Pets benefit from potential life-changing and life-saving medicines being developed, treating such conditions as flea infestations and osteoarthritis afflictions, in addition to a wide range of other medical conditions. In the meantime, a pet owner can benefit from free-of-charge attentive medical care for their pet when options for treatment for a medical condition may be non-existent.
Veterinary Today Podcast host, Joanne Carlson, DVM, talks with Larry Baker, DVM, DAVDC, FAVD, owner/operator of Northgate Pet Clinic in Decatur, about the clinical trials program that partners with both pharmaceutical companies and pet owners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the veterinary today podcast
produced by the Illinois StateVeterinary Medical Association.
I'm Kelley McLaughlin yourpodcast moderator.
Veterinary today shares currentand developing trends in the
veterinary profession, providinginformation so veterinary
professionals can serveclients in their pets livestock
and manage their practicesand to establish a more
(00:22):
informed, knowledgeable andeducated clinical staff.
Veterinary today also allows petowners and animal producers
to view into the world ofveterinary medicine from
clinicians and techniciansshedding light into the world
of animal care and treatmentsfrom their experienced
professional points of view. Ourhost is Dr. Joanne Carlson,
(00:42):
Chief Medical Officer at LovingCare Animal Clinic in Palatine
and immediate past presidentof the is VMAs Board of
Directors Dr.
Carlson Hello. Hi, zoic sogood to be back with you and our
listeners.
I'm excited to discuss today'stopic episode something
unique to Illinois.
Yeah, not only is it veryintriguing, but interestingly,
(01:02):
our guest today is my formerveterinarian when I lived in
Decatur, Illinois, kind of asmall world, right.
Isn't that right? How funny theway our lives crossed paths.
Well, this is a nice readingyou for your joy.
Absolutely.
Beyond being an outstandingvenery practitioner.
Dr. Larry Baker is a veterinarypioneer in central Illinois.
(01:24):
Beyond his state of the artVeterinary Clinic indicator.
He has built a regionallyrenowned Animal Hospital
comprised of three buildings,offering services not typically
found in our veterinarypractices.
North Gate Pet Clinic featuresall the medical services
you would expect from a smallanimal veterinary practice
true, but it also featuresveterinary dentistry services
(01:46):
for all kinds of animals.
Dr. Baker is a board certifiedveterinary dentist.
How about that?
Essentially, there are about 200of these folks in the United
States.
Dr.
Baker's dentistry practice alsooffers dental training seminars
and labs for students andveterinarians, from which
to learn and grow in a dedicatedtraining facility.
(02:09):
On the fun side of the operationis a bakery that makes all kinds
of delicious treats for clientspets. But what's super
intriguing about Dr.
Baker and his team is theyoffer a clinical trial program
for pharmaceutical researchfor both dogs and cats that
pet owners can voluntarilysign up for in exchange for
(02:30):
medical services and treatmentfor their beloved pets.
Very interesting and somethingyou don't see everyday.
Right, Dr.
Carlson?
Absolutely, indeed.
And this clinical trial programhas a dedicated facility
with its own veterinarianrunning the trial procedures
with Dr.
Baker's oversight.
So let's allow Dr.
Baker to tell us about thisclinical trial program, how it
came to be, what to researchand how clients can get their
(02:53):
furry friends involved.
Welcome, Dr. Baker.
Dr.
Carlson, thank you for the kindintroduction.
That was very nice of you.
Joy, I think I'd enjoy talkingabout clinical trials, because I
don't have a chance to do thatvery often. And we have a
I think we have probablythe only building building
in the United States that'sprivate, dedicated to clinical
(03:14):
trials. We have three buildingsand what I'm this used to be
dedicated to the Humane Society,and they needed a larger
place. And so we turned it intoclinical trials. So that's
what we do here in the building.
And that's all we do there. AndI enjoy it.
That is so interesting.
Can you share with us any ofthe pharma companies in which
(03:36):
you've engaged at your clinicaltrial facility, I see that
you offer a variety of options.
Actually, do we have trialsfrom all almost all of the major
pharmaceutical companies is evensome private trials. I remember,
especially an interestingprivate trial was from a retired
physician who wanted to usecapsulation.
(03:57):
And he used capsulation intojoints, because the nerves
get I can I can turn thataround get used to capsulation.
So he thought if the nervesin the tongue is katholischen,
which is why many peoplethat like spicy foods can
(04:19):
eat hotter and hotter foods thatmight work in the joints
too. That was one trial thatdidn't go very far.
But it was fun to do aninteresting so it was just happy
to be an instrument trial. Butmost of the trials are from
major pharmaceutical companies.
And often they have companiesthat work for them that promote
and provide the clinical trialsthrough us. I see that you have
(04:41):
several that involve theosteoarthritis and the senior
pets. We do been something veryinteresting to me the monoclonal
antibodies, it as we have,there are more and more studies
involving monoclonal antibodiesin humans as well.
I'm just reading about that thismorning.
But actually, all this startedwith a, if I could go back to
(05:04):
2014, we weren't even doing anyosteoarthritis trials, then we
were doing Exia products on themarket called Derek Cox.
And then I'm sure you'refamiliar with, and that need
for that asked me to, if I'mused to doing.
They didn't use the wordclinical trial, because at
that time, I don't thinkthere are many clinical trials.
They asked me if I wouldcheck and see with them if if
(05:27):
Dr. Cox it was effectivefor dental pain? And I said,
Sure, how do I do that. Sothey just kind of told me
how to do it. And it's a, itwasn't nearly as complicated
as it is now. But we didthat and found out that the
animals that we provided theterracotta to, didn't show the
(05:49):
signs of clinical pain thatother animals without it
did. And I didn't even reallyknow how to recognize all the
signs of pain and animals.
So I had to do a little researchwith education, found out
a lot of things about animalsand how they can show pain,
other than just yelping orbarking or screaming or running
away, you know. And so, as aresult of that trial, I actually
(06:12):
got to speak pretty much allthe United States.
And I think probably our trialsgot out there and in the
government, one of thegovernment websites, and I
started getting calls. Andso that's what started our CO
clinical trial program back in2014. And the osteoarthritis
trials.
Now we've done both dogs andcats, and we've had requests
(06:35):
to do quite a few. So wecan only do one at a time. We
don't want to impose upon onecompany, when we're doing
clinical trials forosteoarthritis, where another
company asked us to do that. Sowe separate those trials,
we've got quite a few ofthem going on different
times. How do you staff thisoperation?
How many team members do youemploy?
(06:55):
And who's responsible forspecific duties?
That's a good question.
I'm the Principal Investigator.
So I tried to look overeverything.
But I also hired a veterinarian,that just actually that's
what he does is the trialsthemselves.
And we have a coordinator,Tory, who takes all the calls
from various companies, lets himknow if we be interested
(07:17):
in or not, and often asked meif we're interested, for
example, anything dentistry,I'd be interested in something
like maybe cardiac trials, Iwouldn't be because we may not
see enough cases there. ButTory takes care of all that
lets me know. And then if I'minterested, we tell the company
and they send us a protocol,and we sign the protocol.
(07:41):
And then they normally send aperson to us, or even sometimes
by a zoom call. That explainswhat they want us to do. If we
can do that, then we we signup for it.
They tell us the type ofcomputer program they want
to use.
And because there's a couplecompanies out there that
(08:04):
basically does computer programsfor clinical trials.
And then we sign up and wehave, we have our assistants
that generally do a lot of thepaperwork and the pharmaceutical
handling and reports back to thecompany.
It's actually quite an involvedprocess compared to what it
(08:24):
used to be it's very similar tohuman trials.
And we'll be right back afterthis.
Consider your ISVMA your onestop shop for all of this CE
you need to renew your Illinoislicense, whether you're a
veterinarian or a CVT.
From veterinary medicine topractice management to
(08:47):
technician tracks, and yourcareers ongoing development.
Your ISVMA has compiled coursesfrom its annual convention
and from collaborativeveterinary educational providers
that allows you to earnpractical CE for licensed
renewal.
You can also sign up formandated courses required by the
state of Illinois for youand your staff, including sexual
(09:09):
harassment prevention, training,and opioid management training.
So let's talk aboutaffordability.
Your ISVMA provides all of thesecourses at incredible cost
savings to you. It even providesvalue added courses in
collaboration with veterinaryrelated professional
organizations offered at a greatdiscount, giving you more
(09:29):
variety than ever before,leverage your membership
by taking advantage of thesetimely and relevant courses at
an incredible value.
Visit the ISV AMA'swebsites@www.isvma.org and click
on the ISVMA drop down menuat the top of the page. Then
click on is VMA eventregistration to read about all
(09:52):
the courses available to youtoday. And now back to
veterinary today with your hostDr. Joanne Carl's To and special
guest, Dr.
Larry Baker with Northgate petclinic. So how do the clients or
the client components of theseclinical trial programs
work? Can you please share withus how the pet owners sign up
(10:13):
their dog or cat?
And what kinds of concernsdo they express about enrolling
their pet into the trials?
I'm sure there's lots ofquestions.
Sure.
Well, for example, let's justpick a trial like let's say
a fleas in cats, we've doneclinical trials, using a
drug for fleas and cats, andyou for to kill fleas and cats.
And so what we normallydo is, in that case, I would
(10:37):
call the groomers in ourarea, all the groomers and say,
Hey, if you come across acat, with fleas, if you want
to, don't treat it, send it tous, we'll, we'll pay you a
stipend for sending it to us.
We'll treat the pet forfree. And we get some clinical
results that can help otherpets as well.
That's one example.
(10:59):
Other things like, let's say,a nerve block for post operative
pain in cats, we might askanyone coming in, that's
going to have surgery done ontheir cats if they'd like to be
involved in the clinicaltrial. And until and they always
have questions like, Is this isthis dangerous is you know, and
(11:20):
boy, I don't remember over theyears, I don't remember, one
problem, real problem with theclinical trial, causing a
serious injury or death of apet ever.
Now, the other thing to keep inmind is even though we do that,
about 9070 to 90% of theclinical trials, fail to show a
(11:43):
pharmacy pharmaceutical, that'sbetter than the one we already
have, for example, still, it'sinteresting.
And often in our office,often we use a drug that's well
known, for example, for pain,as a counterpart to drug we're
using as an investigatedrug. And so that's, that's how
(12:05):
we pretty much handle that. Ialso, we can go through our
records for, for example,let's say we've got they want
to do a cat osteoarthritisstudy, we simply go through our
records, look at all thecats that have had trouble
that we might think haveosteoarthritis, call the owner,
(12:25):
say, Hey, if you want toget into clinical trial, we
can do that. It doesn't cost youanything.
You can perhaps even getpaid for it, we'll provide
the drugs, we'll do a CBCcomplete blood count some
bloodwork, your analysis, goodexams, and we might have to do
at the beginning of thetrial, in during the trial
(12:46):
itself at the end of the trial,perhaps even later, because
some of these trials maylast for two weeks.
And some trials may last foryears. So there's all depends on
the trial that we're doing andand what kind of trial it is.
So clearly, the benefits for thepet owner is perhaps preliminary
(13:07):
lab work, and also thenpromising outcomes as far as the
osteoarthritis.
So I know that I've beenthrilled with the Solensia
for the cage, because there'svery few pain options for
osteoarthritis in cats.
Yes. And you know, what'sinteresting is, I had to look
(13:30):
back and see, because some ofthese trials, the drug we're
using might be labeled B 23. Youknow, we don't know what that
is. And then if it gets on themarket, we often know it. And
what's nice, is some of thesetrials do have a placebo.
So maybe we'll be using thedrug, and two out of three
cats, and a placebo and oneout of three. So a lot of
(13:50):
times we depend have to dependupon the owner, the owners
diary, they keep every dayon what the pit is doing or
not doing.
And so generally thesepharmaceutical companies
are really good about this sortof thing, if it looks like
to them that the newinvestigative drug is working.
And the placebo has notbeen they will often provide at
(14:14):
the end of the trial, theinvestigating drug to the people
that had the placebo.
And normally that people getpaid by simply medic medications
for mass or office costs ormass or whatever in the future,
whatever it's worth. And itdepends.
It used to get paid prettywell. And the cvcs the profiles
(14:37):
and analysis can easilyadd up to three or$400 for for a
client that they wouldn'twould be paying otherwise.
So you know, what have youlearned from conducting these
trials as to why it has beenimportant for Animal Health
Care?
Sounds like you've had some verypositive outcomes.
But what are some of thechallenges you face Dr. Baker?
(14:59):
I think Maybe the biggestchallenge sometimes is
ascertaining whether thepatient is better or not that
clients may be better atthat. And some of the trials are
difficult in terms of the clientmust have a computer must check
in every day, they must besome of the trials, that
(15:21):
computer has to be quiet hasto be computer savvy. And
if they're not, we can't puthim in the trial. On the other
hand, there are pets thatcan't get into trials.
Because the been on a drugrecently, within the last week,
within the last month, andsometimes there are only a
limited number of pets wecan put into trials.
(15:43):
And so for example, we wecouldn't put a pin in a clinical
trial that's been on an antiarthritic drug during the past
month. So that's probably thebiggest thing. It seems like
it's not a problem.
I'm, I'm kind of excitedabout the clinical trials. So
it's not a problem for me totalk to a client about it.
(16:04):
And most of the clients I'vetalked with, are, are interested
in and they, you know, have someclients?
Well, I said, you know,you're an hour and a half away,
you probably don't want to comefor this.
Oh, yeah, we'd like to do it.
So we have quite a few clientsinterested whether they're
old or are not local?
Well, obviously, these medicaltrials are a unique opportunity
in central Illinois.
(16:24):
But how unique is this operationthat you have?
Well, you know, I've had severalveterinarians call me and
they've heard that I do clinicaltrials, clinical trials,
and they are interestedin him. So I give him the
company's name, and name andphone number.
And they call and I don't know,anyone is taken advantage
of that yet. I think it'sbecause it's pretty involved
(16:48):
in terms of keeping track of thepatient, of doing exactly
the way the pharmaceuticalcompany wants it done. We
don't cut any corners,everything if it's not, if
it's not written, it's notdone, you know. So it's not,
it's difficult, and you can'texactly work a clinical
(17:08):
trial, in your, with yourregular appointments with our,
we have these we do clinicaltrials all day long in this
building, that makes it a loteasier.
But if you're a veterinarian,and you want to do clinical
trials, you've really got todedicate yourself to doing
it and making sure you do theaccurate record keeping and have
employees who can assistwith it.
(17:32):
I can tell by your enthusiasmthat you really enjoy
facilitating this program.
I do I do.
i i And I can say I've doneit since 2014. And it's really
nice to see, sometimes the humancounterpart counterparts
to this, I've seen.
So when I read in, I think theNew England Journal of Medicine
(17:54):
too, as well as the JAMA,and ISVMA.
Any reports and so when Iread any of these, I always
kind of compare him to see whattrials in humans are compared
to trials in pets, andoftentimes every Safar
especially some of the Browseinvolving genetics, you know,
(18:14):
10 years and running.
So what is the future of thisprogram?
Dr. Baker?
Well, we don't tend to stop Ilike doing it. And he could, we
just have to turn down sometrials, because we don't have
the time to do it.
So I think you know, I workedour pay on keeping doing as
long as we can. This has beenreally fun talking about
this. And I have to say I'malways amazed at the different
(18:37):
facets of Veterinary Medicineand the things that we we
can do and we participatein and I'm just thrilled.
So for clients that might belistening, how can they find
out more about your clinicaltrials at your facility, and our
fellow veterinary colleagues?
How do they find out more aboutthese trials?
Dr. Baker, I have no problemwith him calling me directly
(18:59):
at my at Northgate Pet Clinicindicator and I have no problem
with them calling on my cellphone 217-520-4653 I'd be
glad to tell them how theycould do clinical trials and
many I'm certainly could beinterested in it.
You know, I know that our ourteacher and mentor dr. Irwin
small is up there clappingright now and haven't saying go
(19:23):
align I veterinarians.
Dr. Spa was one of my favoriteinstructors.
And I spent quite a bit oftime with him and really enjoyed
his teaching.
He was good.
Well, he was he was the best.
I'm sure he's very proud ofyou. So thank you for joining us
today was nice to meet you.
Thank you for having me. Iappreciate it. Really appreciate
(19:43):
to being able to discuss ourclinical trials.
Thank you, doctor, speaker andCarlson for yet another
insightful view into theveterinary medical profession
here in Illinois.
And thanks to our listenersfor tuning into this episode.
Join us again and check out ourprevious podcast episodes there
Available at veterinary todaypodcast homepage or wherever you
download your favorite podcastson Shelley McLaughlin thanks
(20:06):
again for joining us
Hello and welcome to the veterinary today podcast
produced by the Illinois StateVeterinary Medical Association.
I'm Kelley McLaughlin yourpodcast moderator.
Veterinary today shares currentand developing trends in the
veterinary profession, providinginformation so veterinary
professionals can serveclients in their pets livestock
and manage their practicesand to establish a more
(00:22):
informed, knowledgeable andeducated clinical staff.
Veterinary today also allows petowners and animal producers
to view into the world ofveterinary medicine from
clinicians and techniciansshedding light into the world
of animal care and treatmentsfrom their experienced
professional points of view. Ourhost is Dr. Joanne Carlson,
(00:42):
Chief Medical Officer at LovingCare Animal Clinic in Palatine
and immediate past presidentof the is VMAs Board of
Directors Dr.
Carlson Hello. Hi, zoic sogood to be back with you and our
listeners.
I'm excited to discuss today'stopic episode something
unique to Illinois.
Yeah, not only is it veryintriguing, but interestingly,
(01:02):
our guest today is my formerveterinarian when I lived in
Decatur, Illinois, kind of asmall world, right.
Isn't that right? How funny theway our lives crossed paths.
Well, this is a nice readingyou for your joy.
Absolutely.
Beyond being an outstandingvenery practitioner.
Dr. Larry Baker is a veterinarypioneer in central Illinois.
(01:24):
Beyond his state of the artVeterinary Clinic indicator.
He has built a regionallyrenowned Animal Hospital
comprised of three buildings,offering services not typically
found in our veterinarypractices.
North Gate Pet Clinic featuresall the medical services
you would expect from a smallanimal veterinary practice
true, but it also featuresveterinary dentistry services
(01:46):
for all kinds of animals.
Dr. Baker is a board certifiedveterinary dentist.
How about that?
Essentially, there are about 200of these folks in the United
States.
Dr.
Baker's dentistry practice alsooffers dental training seminars
and labs for students andveterinarians, from which
to learn and grow in a dedicatedtraining facility.
(02:09):
On the fun side of the operationis a bakery that makes all kinds
of delicious treats for clientspets. But what's super
intriguing about Dr.
Baker and his team is theyoffer a clinical trial program
for pharmaceutical researchfor both dogs and cats that
pet owners can voluntarilysign up for in exchange for
(02:30):
medical services and treatmentfor their beloved pets.
Very interesting and somethingyou don't see everyday.
Right, Dr.
Carlson?
Absolutely, indeed.
And this clinical trial programhas a dedicated facility
with its own veterinarianrunning the trial procedures
with Dr.
Baker's oversight.
So let's allow Dr.
Baker to tell us about thisclinical trial program, how it
came to be, what to researchand how clients can get their
(02:53):
furry friends involved.
Welcome, Dr. Baker.
Dr.
Carlson, thank you for the kindintroduction.
That was very nice of you.
Joy, I think I'd enjoy talkingabout clinical trials, because I
don't have a chance to do thatvery often. And we have a
I think we have probablythe only building building
in the United States that'sprivate, dedicated to clinical
(03:14):
trials. We have three buildingsand what I'm this used to be
dedicated to the Humane Society,and they needed a larger
place. And so we turned it intoclinical trials. So that's
what we do here in the building.
And that's all we do there. AndI enjoy it.
That is so interesting.
Can you share with us any ofthe pharma companies in which
(03:36):
you've engaged at your clinicaltrial facility, I see that
you offer a variety of options.
Actually, do we have trialsfrom all almost all of the major
pharmaceutical companies is evensome private trials. I remember,
especially an interestingprivate trial was from a retired
physician who wanted to usecapsulation.
(03:57):
And he used capsulation intojoints, because the nerves
get I can I can turn thataround get used to capsulation.
So he thought if the nervesin the tongue is katholischen,
which is why many peoplethat like spicy foods can
(04:19):
eat hotter and hotter foods thatmight work in the joints
too. That was one trial thatdidn't go very far.
But it was fun to do aninteresting so it was just happy
to be an instrument trial. Butmost of the trials are from
major pharmaceutical companies.
And often they have companiesthat work for them that promote
and provide the clinical trialsthrough us. I see that you have
(04:41):
several that involve theosteoarthritis and the senior
pets. We do been something veryinteresting to me the monoclonal
antibodies, it as we have,there are more and more studies
involving monoclonal antibodiesin humans as well.
I'm just reading about that thismorning.
But actually, all this startedwith a, if I could go back to
(05:04):
2014, we weren't even doing anyosteoarthritis trials, then we
were doing Exia products on themarket called Derek Cox.
And then I'm sure you'refamiliar with, and that need
for that asked me to, if I'mused to doing.
They didn't use the wordclinical trial, because at
that time, I don't thinkthere are many clinical trials.
They asked me if I wouldcheck and see with them if if
(05:27):
Dr. Cox it was effectivefor dental pain? And I said,
Sure, how do I do that. Sothey just kind of told me
how to do it. And it's a, itwasn't nearly as complicated
as it is now. But we didthat and found out that the
animals that we provided theterracotta to, didn't show the
(05:49):
signs of clinical pain thatother animals without it
did. And I didn't even reallyknow how to recognize all the
signs of pain and animals.
So I had to do a little researchwith education, found out
a lot of things about animalsand how they can show pain,
other than just yelping orbarking or screaming or running
away, you know. And so, as aresult of that trial, I actually
(06:12):
got to speak pretty much allthe United States.
And I think probably our trialsgot out there and in the
government, one of thegovernment websites, and I
started getting calls. Andso that's what started our CO
clinical trial program back in2014. And the osteoarthritis
trials.
Now we've done both dogs andcats, and we've had requests
(06:35):
to do quite a few. So wecan only do one at a time. We
don't want to impose upon onecompany, when we're doing
clinical trials forosteoarthritis, where another
company asked us to do that. Sowe separate those trials,
we've got quite a few ofthem going on different
times. How do you staff thisoperation?
How many team members do youemploy?
(06:55):
And who's responsible forspecific duties?
That's a good question.
I'm the Principal Investigator.
So I tried to look overeverything.
But I also hired a veterinarian,that just actually that's
what he does is the trialsthemselves.
And we have a coordinator,Tory, who takes all the calls
from various companies, lets himknow if we be interested
(07:17):
in or not, and often asked meif we're interested, for
example, anything dentistry,I'd be interested in something
like maybe cardiac trials, Iwouldn't be because we may not
see enough cases there. ButTory takes care of all that
lets me know. And then if I'minterested, we tell the company
and they send us a protocol,and we sign the protocol.
(07:41):
And then they normally send aperson to us, or even sometimes
by a zoom call. That explainswhat they want us to do. If we
can do that, then we we signup for it.
They tell us the type ofcomputer program they want
to use.
And because there's a couplecompanies out there that
(08:04):
basically does computer programsfor clinical trials.
And then we sign up and wehave, we have our assistants
that generally do a lot of thepaperwork and the pharmaceutical
handling and reports back to thecompany.
It's actually quite an involvedprocess compared to what it
(08:24):
used to be it's very similar tohuman trials.
And we'll be right back afterthis.
Consider your ISVMA your onestop shop for all of this CE
you need to renew your Illinoislicense, whether you're a
veterinarian or a CVT.
From veterinary medicine topractice management to
(08:47):
technician tracks, and yourcareers ongoing development.
Your ISVMA has compiled coursesfrom its annual convention
and from collaborativeveterinary educational providers
that allows you to earnpractical CE for licensed
renewal.
You can also sign up formandated courses required by the
state of Illinois for youand your staff, including sexual
(09:09):
harassment prevention, training,and opioid management training.
So let's talk aboutaffordability.
Your ISVMA provides all of thesecourses at incredible cost
savings to you. It even providesvalue added courses in
collaboration with veterinaryrelated professional
organizations offered at a greatdiscount, giving you more
(09:29):
variety than ever before,leverage your membership
by taking advantage of thesetimely and relevant courses at
an incredible value.
Visit the ISV AMA'swebsites@www.isvma.org and click
on the ISVMA drop down menuat the top of the page. Then
click on is VMA eventregistration to read about all
(09:52):
the courses available to youtoday. And now back to
veterinary today with your hostDr. Joanne Carl's To and special
guest, Dr.
Larry Baker with Northgate petclinic. So how do the clients or
the client components of theseclinical trial programs
work? Can you please share withus how the pet owners sign up
(10:13):
their dog or cat?
And what kinds of concernsdo they express about enrolling
their pet into the trials?
I'm sure there's lots ofquestions.
Sure.
Well, for example, let's justpick a trial like let's say
a fleas in cats, we've doneclinical trials, using a
drug for fleas and cats, andyou for to kill fleas and cats.
And so what we normallydo is, in that case, I would
(10:37):
call the groomers in ourarea, all the groomers and say,
Hey, if you come across acat, with fleas, if you want
to, don't treat it, send it tous, we'll, we'll pay you a
stipend for sending it to us.
We'll treat the pet forfree. And we get some clinical
results that can help otherpets as well.
That's one example.
(10:59):
Other things like, let's say,a nerve block for post operative
pain in cats, we might askanyone coming in, that's
going to have surgery done ontheir cats if they'd like to be
involved in the clinicaltrial. And until and they always
have questions like, Is this isthis dangerous is you know, and
(11:20):
boy, I don't remember over theyears, I don't remember, one
problem, real problem with theclinical trial, causing a
serious injury or death of apet ever.
Now, the other thing to keep inmind is even though we do that,
about 9070 to 90% of theclinical trials, fail to show a
(11:43):
pharmacy pharmaceutical, that'sbetter than the one we already
have, for example, still, it'sinteresting.
And often in our office,often we use a drug that's well
known, for example, for pain,as a counterpart to drug we're
using as an investigatedrug. And so that's, that's how
(12:05):
we pretty much handle that. Ialso, we can go through our
records for, for example,let's say we've got they want
to do a cat osteoarthritisstudy, we simply go through our
records, look at all thecats that have had trouble
that we might think haveosteoarthritis, call the owner,
(12:25):
say, Hey, if you want toget into clinical trial, we
can do that. It doesn't cost youanything.
You can perhaps even getpaid for it, we'll provide
the drugs, we'll do a CBCcomplete blood count some
bloodwork, your analysis, goodexams, and we might have to do
at the beginning of thetrial, in during the trial
(12:46):
itself at the end of the trial,perhaps even later, because
some of these trials maylast for two weeks.
And some trials may last foryears. So there's all depends on
the trial that we're doing andand what kind of trial it is.
So clearly, the benefits for thepet owner is perhaps preliminary
(13:07):
lab work, and also thenpromising outcomes as far as the
osteoarthritis.
So I know that I've beenthrilled with the Solensia
for the cage, because there'svery few pain options for
osteoarthritis in cats.
Yes. And you know, what'sinteresting is, I had to look
(13:30):
back and see, because some ofthese trials, the drug we're
using might be labeled B 23. Youknow, we don't know what that
is. And then if it gets on themarket, we often know it. And
what's nice, is some of thesetrials do have a placebo.
So maybe we'll be using thedrug, and two out of three
cats, and a placebo and oneout of three. So a lot of
(13:50):
times we depend have to dependupon the owner, the owners
diary, they keep every dayon what the pit is doing or
not doing.
And so generally thesepharmaceutical companies
are really good about this sortof thing, if it looks like
to them that the newinvestigative drug is working.
And the placebo has notbeen they will often provide at
(14:14):
the end of the trial, theinvestigating drug to the people
that had the placebo.
And normally that people getpaid by simply medic medications
for mass or office costs ormass or whatever in the future,
whatever it's worth. And itdepends.
It used to get paid prettywell. And the cvcs the profiles
(14:37):
and analysis can easilyadd up to three or$400 for for a
client that they wouldn'twould be paying otherwise.
So you know, what have youlearned from conducting these
trials as to why it has beenimportant for Animal Health
Care?
Sounds like you've had some verypositive outcomes.
But what are some of thechallenges you face Dr. Baker?
(14:59):
I think Maybe the biggestchallenge sometimes is
ascertaining whether thepatient is better or not that
clients may be better atthat. And some of the trials are
difficult in terms of the clientmust have a computer must check
in every day, they must besome of the trials, that
(15:21):
computer has to be quiet hasto be computer savvy. And
if they're not, we can't puthim in the trial. On the other
hand, there are pets thatcan't get into trials.
Because the been on a drugrecently, within the last week,
within the last month, andsometimes there are only a
limited number of pets wecan put into trials.
(15:43):
And so for example, we wecouldn't put a pin in a clinical
trial that's been on an antiarthritic drug during the past
month. So that's probably thebiggest thing. It seems like
it's not a problem.
I'm, I'm kind of excitedabout the clinical trials. So
it's not a problem for me totalk to a client about it.
(16:04):
And most of the clients I'vetalked with, are, are interested
in and they, you know, have someclients?
Well, I said, you know,you're an hour and a half away,
you probably don't want to comefor this.
Oh, yeah, we'd like to do it.
So we have quite a few clientsinterested whether they're
old or are not local?
Well, obviously, these medicaltrials are a unique opportunity
in central Illinois.
(16:24):
But how unique is this operationthat you have?
Well, you know, I've had severalveterinarians call me and
they've heard that I do clinicaltrials, clinical trials,
and they are interestedin him. So I give him the
company's name, and name andphone number.
And they call and I don't know,anyone is taken advantage
of that yet. I think it'sbecause it's pretty involved
(16:48):
in terms of keeping track of thepatient, of doing exactly
the way the pharmaceuticalcompany wants it done. We
don't cut any corners,everything if it's not, if
it's not written, it's notdone, you know. So it's not,
it's difficult, and you can'texactly work a clinical
(17:08):
trial, in your, with yourregular appointments with our,
we have these we do clinicaltrials all day long in this
building, that makes it a loteasier.
But if you're a veterinarian,and you want to do clinical
trials, you've really got todedicate yourself to doing
it and making sure you do theaccurate record keeping and have
employees who can assistwith it.
(17:32):
I can tell by your enthusiasmthat you really enjoy
facilitating this program.
I do I do.
i i And I can say I've doneit since 2014. And it's really
nice to see, sometimes the humancounterpart counterparts
to this, I've seen.
So when I read in, I think theNew England Journal of Medicine
(17:54):
too, as well as the JAMA,and ISVMA.
Any reports and so when Iread any of these, I always
kind of compare him to see whattrials in humans are compared
to trials in pets, andoftentimes every Safar
especially some of the Browseinvolving genetics, you know,
(18:14):
10 years and running.
So what is the future of thisprogram?
Dr. Baker?
Well, we don't tend to stop Ilike doing it. And he could, we
just have to turn down sometrials, because we don't have
the time to do it.
So I think you know, I workedour pay on keeping doing as
long as we can. This has beenreally fun talking about
this. And I have to say I'malways amazed at the different
(18:37):
facets of Veterinary Medicineand the things that we we
can do and we participatein and I'm just thrilled.
So for clients that might belistening, how can they find
out more about your clinicaltrials at your facility, and our
fellow veterinary colleagues?
How do they find out more aboutthese trials?
Dr. Baker, I have no problemwith him calling me directly
(18:59):
at my at Northgate Pet Clinicindicator and I have no problem
with them calling on my cellphone 217-520-4653 I'd be
glad to tell them how theycould do clinical trials and
many I'm certainly could beinterested in it.
You know, I know that our ourteacher and mentor dr. Irwin
small is up there clappingright now and haven't saying go
(19:23):
align I veterinarians.
Dr. Spa was one of my favoriteinstructors.
And I spent quite a bit oftime with him and really enjoyed
his teaching.
He was good.
Well, he was he was the best.
I'm sure he's very proud ofyou. So thank you for joining us
today was nice to meet you.
Thank you for having me. Iappreciate it. Really appreciate
(19:43):
to being able to discuss ourclinical trials.
Thank you, doctor, speaker andCarlson for yet another
insightful view into theveterinary medical profession
here in Illinois.
And thanks to our listenersfor tuning into this episode.
Join us again and check out ourprevious podcast episodes there
Available at veterinary todaypodcast homepage or wherever you
download your favorite podcastson Shelley McLaughlin thanks
(20:06):
again for joining us
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