June 4, 2025 • 15 mins
Curious about what happens to your samples after they leave your clinic? Wonder why some tests come back with "no growth" despite clear clinical signs? This eye-opening conversation with microbiologist Kelli Maddock reveals the world of veterinary diagnostic laboratories and how you can leverage them for better patient outcomes.
Kelli, Guest Editor of JAVMA's supplemental issue "Diagnostic Laboratory Medicine: From Sampling to Test Interpretation," debunks common misconceptions about lab testing while offering practical advice for getting the most accurate results. The difference between a properly collected, promptly delivered sample and one that's "rolled around in your pickup for a week" can be the difference between diagnosis and mystery. Through real-world scenarios and research findings, Kelli demonstrates how proper communication with laboratory professionals directly impacts clinical decision-making.
The episode doesn't just cover technical aspects—it reveals the human element of laboratory medicine. Kelli shares her personal journey from human medicine to veterinary diagnostics, opening listeners' eyes to alternative career paths in veterinary medicine.
Whether you're a student, practicing veterinarian, or laboratory professional, this conversation offers valuable insights into strengthening the partnership between clinicians and diagnostic laboratories. Remember: the laboratory isn't just a service provider—it's your partner in patient care, eager to help you get the best possible diagnostic information. Subscribe, leave a review, and join us next week for another exploration of veterinary medicine's fascinating dimensions.
JAVMA editorial: https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.263.s1.s4
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Wright (00:01):
This is Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of the AVMA
Journals.
In this episode we chat aboutthe June JAVMA Supplemental
Issue Diagnostic LaboratoryMedicine From Sampling to Test
Interpretation with our guestKelly Maddock.
Lisa Fortier (00:15):
Welcome everyone.
I'm Editor-in-Chief LisaFortier, and with co-host Sarah
Wright.
Kelly, thank you so much forbeing with us here today from my
home state of North Dakota.
Kelli Maddock (00:26):
Thanks for having me Excited to be here.
Sarah Wright (00:28):
All right, let's dive right in.
So, kelly, you're the guesteditor for the JAVMA
supplemental issue.
Diagnostic Laboratory MedicineFrom Sampling to Test
Interpretation.
What can our readers expect totake away from these articles?
Kelli Maddock (00:41):
Yeah, I'm so excited to share this special
issue.
There are some really greatthings.
I have a suspicion that a lotof people maybe especially
working veterinarians don't havea lot of interaction with their
diagnostic laboratories,especially if they're working
with big commercial laboratories.
But the information containedin here there's some original
research, of course, and thensome reviews, and the reviews I
(01:05):
think are really helpful forjust reminding folks of some
really good tips to get the besttest results, because we always
make the assumption of I giveyou a sample and no matter what
that quality of that sample isgoing to get me the same test
result.
You know, maybe rolled around inyour pickup for a week,
compared to like fresh off theanimal delivered to the lab the
same day, there's a hugedifference and you can actually
(01:30):
miss getting an important testresult because that sample is
degraded.
So a lot of those reviews arereally touching on those things
that'll make sure that you getthat really great sample and
some things you couldpotentially miss if you aren't
getting the sample at the righttime, the right patient, right
site or providing that relevantclinical history.
So a lot of things that I thinkthe reviews and the original
(01:53):
research touch on are thatcollaboration and partnership
between the laboratory and theclinicians.
So a lot of that, the originalresearch I think is really
useful.
Clinicians so a lot of that,the original research I think is
really useful.
It's data coming out of thelaboratories and using some
evidence-based information,supporting either collection
requirements or extra tests thatmight be necessary for a
(02:17):
veterinarian to consider.
Lisa Fortier (02:20):
Yeah, thank you for stepping up to do this,
Kelly.
I was in academia for 35 plusyears and you know, even though
our diagnostic lab is half a fewsteps away, it's still really
important that people know howto submit these samples.
You know, synovial fluid wasthe bane of my existence for the
longest time, like please stopputting that in the port-a-cult,
(02:40):
please stop doing that andputting it in the refrigerator.
So, I really really deeplyappreciate you stepping up and
taking on this challenge ofmaking diagnostic laboratory
into a full supplemental issue.
It's going to be superimportant.
Kelli Maddock (02:53):
I really appreciate that opportunity to
do so, because anytime we canget laboratory information out
and remind folks that we existand we want to talk to you and
we want to help you get the bestresults, it's a great
opportunity.
So thank you.
Lisa Fortier (03:05):
Yeah, what sparked your interest in diagnostic
laboratory medicine?
Kelli Maddock (03:10):
Journey was kind of windy to the field.
I had started out, I wastrained in human medicine, loved
microbiology and so that waskind of my home.
But I ended up getting burntout at the hospital a lot of
hours and shifts, always lovedhelping but also didn't
necessarily want to be in frontof patients all the time.
So laboratory medicine it was avery appealing way to be able
(03:31):
to contribute those skills andlove for science and I wound up
at the vet lab because of DrClaire Burbick from.
She was at NDSU while I was amed tech and we took training
together and she ended uprecruiting me and I haven't
looked back.
I've almost been in vet med for10 years now, which is more
than I'd been in human med.
So it's been a good shift andI'm so proud of the diagnostic
(03:55):
lab medicine field and what wecan do and just love being able
to interface with folks and talkabout what we do.
Lisa Fortier (04:01):
Well, we're fortunate to have you in vet med
.
Thank you Every time we writean article, and especially when
you put together a supplementalissue.
I certainly learned a bunchreading all these articles.
What did you learn and what wassurprising to you when you read
this collection of articlesthat you had curated?
I?
Kelli Maddock (04:19):
absolutely loved that a recurring theme
throughout the articles was justcommunication with the
laboratory, regardless of thediscipline.
We have information frompathologists, toxicologists,
coagulopathy, severalmicrobiology articles, but a lot
of that just came down to goodsample and communication and
(04:43):
just really thinking about thewhole picture holistically and
just having a good open dialoguewith the lab and that all just
kind of organically cametogether and I would say that's
probably one of the biggestchallenges we have in the lab
and I'm sure clinicians too.
You're busy, you're out in thefield.
I know rural North Dakota.
They're in a truck middle ofnowhere, maybe going to have
spotty cell phone reception, andthey're trying to call the lab
(05:04):
and ask about a result.
Or what do I collect?
Or hey, I might have an anthrax.
Can you help me out?
So I mean just thatcommunication and connection
with the lab is so important andthat was a nice recurring theme
.
Lisa Fortier (05:17):
I really like what you said, that it's dialogue.
A lot of times people canperceive that laboratory,
clinical support, necropsy,those sorts of things are just
supporting infrastructures.
But you know, for me at least,and I would call the diagnostic
lab and ask a question,especially ClinPath they would
say did you think about this?
(05:39):
Because I've seen a coupleother cases and you might not
have seen it as the clinicianbut as the diagnostic laboratory
person.
So I really like that word,that it's not just one informing
the other, one relying on theother for a service.
It is truly a bilateraldialogue.
Kelli Maddock (05:56):
Definitely, and there are just so many little
things that can help sparkadditional information.
As a microbiologist, some ofyour keywords in your history is
going to make me choosedifferent culture media that
might get a bacterium to growthat wouldn't normally and
that's very true of pathologists, even molecular.
We might call you and say wouldyou like to add this test on?
(06:18):
That might be a little morecomplete.
So it is really helpful andthat's not just our little lab
in North Dakota making time tochat with our clients because
we're little.
Most diagnostic labs, I think,would be really happy to talk to
their clients and help get thatricher test result for the
clinician.
Sarah Wright (06:35):
I think that's one of my biggest takeaways for my
diagnostic medicine rotationswas don't neglect the history.
Don't just put a one linehistory like.
Give them the details they'regoing to need to help you
because ultimately you're goingto have a better outcome,
hopefully for your patient, amore holistic clinical picture
too.
Kelli Maddock (06:48):
For sure, and more than just I gave you money.
Here's a test result that mightsay mixed bacterial growth, but
you call me and I might be ableto tell you like maybe it would
benefit from collecting alittle bit more aseptically.
Or it's telling me it's normal,so maybe consider viral.
You know some of thosedifferent things.
It's very helpful.
Sarah Wright (07:07):
For those of you just joining us, we're
discussing the JAVMA DiagnosticLaboratory Medicine Supplemental
Issue with our guest, kellyMaddock.
So, kelly, what are the nextsteps for research in diagnostic
laboratory medicine?
Kelli Maddock (07:22):
steps for research in diagnostic
laboratory medicine, I thinkcontinual investigation into how
veterinarians are usinglaboratory results and then what
they either perceive thatthey're getting and using in
clinical practice versus whatwe're trying to give them.
So Diaz-Campos et al had done apaper for this special issue on
how veterinarians interpretedantimicrobial susceptibility
(07:44):
test reports, and this issomething we get all the time in
the lab is you only gave mefive drugs.
This other lab gives me 20.
And so she investigated didpeople have sufficient
information to make clinicaldecisions based on a smaller
report with more comments, ordid they prefer a longer laundry
(08:04):
list of drugs and ended upfinding that when the laboratory
took more time to have moretailored results, that
veterinarians made bettertreatment decisions that also
supported antimicrobialstewardship.
So there is a lot of evidencethat the way that we put our
reports together and theinformation we put out it does
actually inform clinicaldecision making and hopefully
(08:26):
helps you make better decisionswithout you having to be the
expert and sort through each ofthe little, each of the drugs on
the list and make the bestchoice.
You're busy.
You're trying to make thesedecisions quickly between
patients and a good lab reportshould help you do that quickly
should have sufficientinformation to let you know what
potential limitations are.
(08:47):
So, yeah, I think there's a lotmore that can be done that way,
not just in microbiology but inother areas of the field.
And then potentially looking atdifferent analytes there's so
many things that I think couldbe replicated from human
medicine.
Looking at different analytesthere's so many things that I
think could be replicated fromhuman medicine and just
investigating how that actuallytranslates to vet med and just
seeing what is actually going totranslate and how can we make
(09:08):
it better and make it work forour veterinarians.
Lisa Fortier (09:10):
You teed up my next question perfectly, so
you're clearly documentingdemonstrating a role for
non-veterinarians in veterinarydiagnostic medicine.
Kelli Maddock (09:26):
If for the listeners who might be
microbiologists or veterinarystudents or veterinarians
considering a career indiagnostic laboratory medicine,
what advice do you have for them, yeah, I would say just getting
that experience and just seeingwhat you like, because even if
you don't necessarily want to bein the laboratory, it is really
important to know what we'redoing.
Our laboratory hosts a lot ofstudents as student help or
interns, and the one thing Ialways try to emphasize if you
(09:48):
take one thing out of here, isjust know that your laboratory
likes to talk to you and theywant to talk to you.
They'd much rather have youcall and take a couple minutes
to get the right sample ratherthan them have to call you and
say I'm sorry, it's the wrongone.
It breaks our heart to not beable to help you and to have a
substandard sample.
We don't want that.
But for people considering acareer in lab medicine, it is a
(10:11):
really great way to be able tohelp people and animals of
course without actuallynecessarily interacting with
them, and it is still a reallyfulfilling career path, always
something changing.
It is really dynamic.
We always assume culture is thesame as it was 40 years ago.
(10:33):
It is very much not.
If your laboratory is keepingup with modern practices, it is
not the same as it was, however,many years ago.
There are some tried and truemethods that will never change,
but there's always things thatcan be optimized and I see that
all the time in lab medicine.
In the 15 years I've been in thefield I'm still blown away by
all the changes and things thatI never thought would happen in
my time.
So it's a really great dynamicfield and a really good option,
(10:56):
and I know our laboratory hashosted veterinarians that just
wanted to come through and tourso that'd be something to reach
out.
If you have a local lab andjust see, you might end up
finding out that you haveinterest in lab medicine and
maybe it would be a career shiftfor you.
If you're maybe getting burntout in the clinical practice not
that I want to poach any moreveterinarians from there, but it
is a really great option and,like in our lab lab, we are
(11:21):
having to get more creative.
We've got to get people to wantto come to North Dakota and
we've got to fill roles.
We're looking at starting atoxicology residency.
We've had to raise our ownpathologists, so there are a lot
of opportunities withinlaboratories for veterinarians
and not veterinarians alike.
Sarah Wright (11:37):
Yeah, I love our field.
I love how diverse the careerpaths are and you can do so much
.
I feel like a lot of people gointo small, like small medicine
I think they're going to anywaysand they start med school.
Then you come out and use youreyes.
There's open to all differentpossibilities.
Kelli Maddock (11:48):
So very, very many different things you can
dabble in and get into.
I had no idea vet med inmicrobiology was going to be
something I'd get into, and it'sperfect.
Sarah Wright (11:57):
Now Kelly, as you know, as a repeat guest on our
podcast, this next set ofquestions is going to be super
important for our listeners.
So, out of all the amazingarticles in this supplemental
issue, what is one piece ofinformation the veterinarian
should know about diagnosticlaboratory medicine in this
issue?
Kelli Maddock (12:24):
Pretty hard, but we want to talk to you and it
is really great if you can calland interact and just call ahead
before you're getting thatsample.
And I would also as frustratingas it can be to have someone
tell you you've got to recollecta sample take that as just a
learning experience and knowthat it's because they want you
to get the best sample, the bestresult.
There is a reason behind themadness in laboratory medicine.
(12:46):
We aren't just trying to makeyour lives harder, we do want to
help and I think that showsthrough in every article in this
supplemental issue in garbageout.
So yes, that is one of myfavorite ways and actually one
of the microbiology papers does,I believe, say specifically
(13:06):
garbage in, garbage out.
There's really great printablesample sheets that you can use
to help you collect goodmicrobiology samples too Awesome
.
Sarah Wright (13:13):
Great.
And then, on the other side ofthe relationship, what's one
thing that clients should knowabout this topic?
Kelli Maddock (13:19):
Yeah, and I think this can be really
challenging.
I had an email even just lastweek with a client frustrated
that their veterinarian hadasked for a culture and we got a
no growth, and so I explainedto them that no growth is still
supporting whatever yourveterinarian is trying to rule
out with a diagnosis.
So, understanding that there isa lot of value in paying that
(13:42):
extra money for a laboratorytest, whether it's they're
asking you to do a culture onceyou think you have a UTI, there
could be other issues that arecausing the animal to have
urinary symptoms.
So really considering thatdiagnostics can be worth the
money.
It isn't just a money grab,there is value for it.
It's just understanding thecontext and looking for those
results.
Lisa Fortier (14:03):
Fantastic.
We also know Kelly.
As we wind down, we like to aska personal question and before
I do that, I'm hoping to meetKelly in 3D when I go back for a
nephew's wedding in July, sohopefully we can have a coffee
together and exchange some greathorror stories.
Kelli Maddock (14:21):
Well, that would be great.
Lisa Fortier (14:22):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
So, Kelly and if you have itwith you, please feel free to
show it what is the oldest orthe most interesting item on
your desk or in your desk drawer?
Kelli Maddock (14:32):
Okay, so these have followed me since I
finished my internship.
But our fantasticmicrobiologist handmade little
clay bacteria.
It's a little bit to help usremember things, but also just
being silly.
They put it on culture loopsand gave it like a bouquet of
flowers, but a little ring ofStreptococcus, just reminding us
strep pyogenes.
(14:53):
She always personified bacteria, which would really help you
remember things.
I've got a little staff.
Some people would getCampylobacter, which she always
described as Farrah Fawcett andwith its flagella it was
whipping its hair around.
So these are on my desk.
I always think of Carol when Isee them.
They always make me happy.
Lisa Fortier (15:11):
Anthropomorphizing bacterium.
That's a new one for me.
Kelli Maddock (15:14):
Yeah Well, it's something pretty normal for us
microbiologists.
So good party trick, yep.
Sarah Wright (15:22):
You so good party, good party trick.
Yep, you make microbiologyseems so fun.
I love that.
Kelli Maddock (15:24):
It is super fun, there's no question about it
Awesome.
Sarah Wright (15:28):
Well, thank you so much, Kelly.
We appreciate you being theguest editor for this
supplemental issue and for alsosharing with our listeners some
insight into what they canexpect to gain from the articles
.
Kelli Maddock (15:38):
Awesome, so excited for everyone to check it
out.
A lot of really greatinformation inside.
Sarah Wright (15:44):
And to our listeners.
You can read the DiagnosticLaboratory Medicine Supplemental
Issue in Jafma.
I'm Sarah Wright with LisaFortier.
Be on the lookout for nextweek's episode and don't forget
to leave us a rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts or whatever
platform you listen to.
This is Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of the AVMA
Journals.
In this episode we chat aboutthe June JAVMA Supplemental
Issue Diagnostic LaboratoryMedicine From Sampling to Test
Interpretation with our guestKelly Maddock.
Lisa Fortier (00:15):
Welcome everyone.
I'm Editor-in-Chief LisaFortier, and with co-host Sarah
Wright.
Kelly, thank you so much forbeing with us here today from my
home state of North Dakota.
Kelli Maddock (00:26):
Thanks for having me Excited to be here.
Sarah Wright (00:28):
All right, let's dive right in.
So, kelly, you're the guesteditor for the JAVMA
supplemental issue.
Diagnostic Laboratory MedicineFrom Sampling to Test
Interpretation.
What can our readers expect totake away from these articles?
Kelli Maddock (00:41):
Yeah, I'm so excited to share this special
issue.
There are some really greatthings.
I have a suspicion that a lotof people maybe especially
working veterinarians don't havea lot of interaction with their
diagnostic laboratories,especially if they're working
with big commercial laboratories.
But the information containedin here there's some original
research, of course, and thensome reviews, and the reviews I
(01:05):
think are really helpful forjust reminding folks of some
really good tips to get the besttest results, because we always
make the assumption of I giveyou a sample and no matter what
that quality of that sample isgoing to get me the same test
result.
You know, maybe rolled around inyour pickup for a week,
compared to like fresh off theanimal delivered to the lab the
same day, there's a hugedifference and you can actually
(01:30):
miss getting an important testresult because that sample is
degraded.
So a lot of those reviews arereally touching on those things
that'll make sure that you getthat really great sample and
some things you couldpotentially miss if you aren't
getting the sample at the righttime, the right patient, right
site or providing that relevantclinical history.
So a lot of things that I thinkthe reviews and the original
(01:53):
research touch on are thatcollaboration and partnership
between the laboratory and theclinicians.
So a lot of that, the originalresearch I think is really
useful.
Clinicians so a lot of that,the original research I think is
really useful.
It's data coming out of thelaboratories and using some
evidence-based information,supporting either collection
requirements or extra tests thatmight be necessary for a
(02:17):
veterinarian to consider.
Lisa Fortier (02:20):
Yeah, thank you for stepping up to do this,
Kelly.
I was in academia for 35 plusyears and you know, even though
our diagnostic lab is half a fewsteps away, it's still really
important that people know howto submit these samples.
You know, synovial fluid wasthe bane of my existence for the
longest time, like please stopputting that in the port-a-cult,
(02:40):
please stop doing that andputting it in the refrigerator.
So, I really really deeplyappreciate you stepping up and
taking on this challenge ofmaking diagnostic laboratory
into a full supplemental issue.
It's going to be superimportant.
Kelli Maddock (02:53):
I really appreciate that opportunity to
do so, because anytime we canget laboratory information out
and remind folks that we existand we want to talk to you and
we want to help you get the bestresults, it's a great
opportunity.
So thank you.
Lisa Fortier (03:05):
Yeah, what sparked your interest in diagnostic
laboratory medicine?
Kelli Maddock (03:10):
Journey was kind of windy to the field.
I had started out, I wastrained in human medicine, loved
microbiology and so that waskind of my home.
But I ended up getting burntout at the hospital a lot of
hours and shifts, always lovedhelping but also didn't
necessarily want to be in frontof patients all the time.
So laboratory medicine it was avery appealing way to be able
(03:31):
to contribute those skills andlove for science and I wound up
at the vet lab because of DrClaire Burbick from.
She was at NDSU while I was amed tech and we took training
together and she ended uprecruiting me and I haven't
looked back.
I've almost been in vet med for10 years now, which is more
than I'd been in human med.
So it's been a good shift andI'm so proud of the diagnostic
(03:55):
lab medicine field and what wecan do and just love being able
to interface with folks and talkabout what we do.
Lisa Fortier (04:01):
Well, we're fortunate to have you in vet med
.
Thank you Every time we writean article, and especially when
you put together a supplementalissue.
I certainly learned a bunchreading all these articles.
What did you learn and what wassurprising to you when you read
this collection of articlesthat you had curated?
I?
Kelli Maddock (04:19):
absolutely loved that a recurring theme
throughout the articles was justcommunication with the
laboratory, regardless of thediscipline.
We have information frompathologists, toxicologists,
coagulopathy, severalmicrobiology articles, but a lot
of that just came down to goodsample and communication and
(04:43):
just really thinking about thewhole picture holistically and
just having a good open dialoguewith the lab and that all just
kind of organically cametogether and I would say that's
probably one of the biggestchallenges we have in the lab
and I'm sure clinicians too.
You're busy, you're out in thefield.
I know rural North Dakota.
They're in a truck middle ofnowhere, maybe going to have
spotty cell phone reception, andthey're trying to call the lab
(05:04):
and ask about a result.
Or what do I collect?
Or hey, I might have an anthrax.
Can you help me out?
So I mean just thatcommunication and connection
with the lab is so important andthat was a nice recurring theme
.
Lisa Fortier (05:17):
I really like what you said, that it's dialogue.
A lot of times people canperceive that laboratory,
clinical support, necropsy,those sorts of things are just
supporting infrastructures.
But you know, for me at least,and I would call the diagnostic
lab and ask a question,especially ClinPath they would
say did you think about this?
(05:39):
Because I've seen a coupleother cases and you might not
have seen it as the clinicianbut as the diagnostic laboratory
person.
So I really like that word,that it's not just one informing
the other, one relying on theother for a service.
It is truly a bilateraldialogue.
Kelli Maddock (05:56):
Definitely, and there are just so many little
things that can help sparkadditional information.
As a microbiologist, some ofyour keywords in your history is
going to make me choosedifferent culture media that
might get a bacterium to growthat wouldn't normally and
that's very true of pathologists, even molecular.
We might call you and say wouldyou like to add this test on?
(06:18):
That might be a little morecomplete.
So it is really helpful andthat's not just our little lab
in North Dakota making time tochat with our clients because
we're little.
Most diagnostic labs, I think,would be really happy to talk to
their clients and help get thatricher test result for the
clinician.
Sarah Wright (06:35):
I think that's one of my biggest takeaways for my
diagnostic medicine rotationswas don't neglect the history.
Don't just put a one linehistory like.
Give them the details they'regoing to need to help you
because ultimately you're goingto have a better outcome,
hopefully for your patient, amore holistic clinical picture
too.
Kelli Maddock (06:48):
For sure, and more than just I gave you money.
Here's a test result that mightsay mixed bacterial growth, but
you call me and I might be ableto tell you like maybe it would
benefit from collecting alittle bit more aseptically.
Or it's telling me it's normal,so maybe consider viral.
You know some of thosedifferent things.
It's very helpful.
Sarah Wright (07:07):
For those of you just joining us, we're
discussing the JAVMA DiagnosticLaboratory Medicine Supplemental
Issue with our guest, kellyMaddock.
So, kelly, what are the nextsteps for research in diagnostic
laboratory medicine?
Kelli Maddock (07:22):
steps for research in diagnostic
laboratory medicine, I thinkcontinual investigation into how
veterinarians are usinglaboratory results and then what
they either perceive thatthey're getting and using in
clinical practice versus whatwe're trying to give them.
So Diaz-Campos et al had done apaper for this special issue on
how veterinarians interpretedantimicrobial susceptibility
(07:44):
test reports, and this issomething we get all the time in
the lab is you only gave mefive drugs.
This other lab gives me 20.
And so she investigated didpeople have sufficient
information to make clinicaldecisions based on a smaller
report with more comments, ordid they prefer a longer laundry
(08:04):
list of drugs and ended upfinding that when the laboratory
took more time to have moretailored results, that
veterinarians made bettertreatment decisions that also
supported antimicrobialstewardship.
So there is a lot of evidencethat the way that we put our
reports together and theinformation we put out it does
actually inform clinicaldecision making and hopefully
(08:26):
helps you make better decisionswithout you having to be the
expert and sort through each ofthe little, each of the drugs on
the list and make the bestchoice.
You're busy.
You're trying to make thesedecisions quickly between
patients and a good lab reportshould help you do that quickly
should have sufficientinformation to let you know what
potential limitations are.
(08:47):
So, yeah, I think there's a lotmore that can be done that way,
not just in microbiology but inother areas of the field.
And then potentially looking atdifferent analytes there's so
many things that I think couldbe replicated from human
medicine.
Looking at different analytesthere's so many things that I
think could be replicated fromhuman medicine and just
investigating how that actuallytranslates to vet med and just
seeing what is actually going totranslate and how can we make
(09:08):
it better and make it work forour veterinarians.
Lisa Fortier (09:10):
You teed up my next question perfectly, so
you're clearly documentingdemonstrating a role for
non-veterinarians in veterinarydiagnostic medicine.
Kelli Maddock (09:26):
If for the listeners who might be
microbiologists or veterinarystudents or veterinarians
considering a career indiagnostic laboratory medicine,
what advice do you have for them, yeah, I would say just getting
that experience and just seeingwhat you like, because even if
you don't necessarily want to bein the laboratory, it is really
important to know what we'redoing.
Our laboratory hosts a lot ofstudents as student help or
interns, and the one thing Ialways try to emphasize if you
(09:48):
take one thing out of here, isjust know that your laboratory
likes to talk to you and theywant to talk to you.
They'd much rather have youcall and take a couple minutes
to get the right sample ratherthan them have to call you and
say I'm sorry, it's the wrongone.
It breaks our heart to not beable to help you and to have a
substandard sample.
We don't want that.
But for people considering acareer in lab medicine, it is a
(10:11):
really great way to be able tohelp people and animals of
course without actuallynecessarily interacting with
them, and it is still a reallyfulfilling career path, always
something changing.
It is really dynamic.
We always assume culture is thesame as it was 40 years ago.
(10:33):
It is very much not.
If your laboratory is keepingup with modern practices, it is
not the same as it was, however,many years ago.
There are some tried and truemethods that will never change,
but there's always things thatcan be optimized and I see that
all the time in lab medicine.
In the 15 years I've been in thefield I'm still blown away by
all the changes and things thatI never thought would happen in
my time.
So it's a really great dynamicfield and a really good option,
(10:56):
and I know our laboratory hashosted veterinarians that just
wanted to come through and tourso that'd be something to reach
out.
If you have a local lab andjust see, you might end up
finding out that you haveinterest in lab medicine and
maybe it would be a career shiftfor you.
If you're maybe getting burntout in the clinical practice not
that I want to poach any moreveterinarians from there, but it
is a really great option and,like in our lab lab, we are
(11:21):
having to get more creative.
We've got to get people to wantto come to North Dakota and
we've got to fill roles.
We're looking at starting atoxicology residency.
We've had to raise our ownpathologists, so there are a lot
of opportunities withinlaboratories for veterinarians
and not veterinarians alike.
Sarah Wright (11:37):
Yeah, I love our field.
I love how diverse the careerpaths are and you can do so much
.
I feel like a lot of people gointo small, like small medicine
I think they're going to anywaysand they start med school.
Then you come out and use youreyes.
There's open to all differentpossibilities.
Kelli Maddock (11:48):
So very, very many different things you can
dabble in and get into.
I had no idea vet med inmicrobiology was going to be
something I'd get into, and it'sperfect.
Sarah Wright (11:57):
Now Kelly, as you know, as a repeat guest on our
podcast, this next set ofquestions is going to be super
important for our listeners.
So, out of all the amazingarticles in this supplemental
issue, what is one piece ofinformation the veterinarian
should know about diagnosticlaboratory medicine in this
issue?
Kelli Maddock (12:24):
Pretty hard, but we want to talk to you and it
is really great if you can calland interact and just call ahead
before you're getting thatsample.
And I would also as frustratingas it can be to have someone
tell you you've got to recollecta sample take that as just a
learning experience and knowthat it's because they want you
to get the best sample, the bestresult.
There is a reason behind themadness in laboratory medicine.
(12:46):
We aren't just trying to makeyour lives harder, we do want to
help and I think that showsthrough in every article in this
supplemental issue in garbageout.
So yes, that is one of myfavorite ways and actually one
of the microbiology papers does,I believe, say specifically
(13:06):
garbage in, garbage out.
There's really great printablesample sheets that you can use
to help you collect goodmicrobiology samples too Awesome
.
Sarah Wright (13:13):
Great.
And then, on the other side ofthe relationship, what's one
thing that clients should knowabout this topic?
Kelli Maddock (13:19):
Yeah, and I think this can be really
challenging.
I had an email even just lastweek with a client frustrated
that their veterinarian hadasked for a culture and we got a
no growth, and so I explainedto them that no growth is still
supporting whatever yourveterinarian is trying to rule
out with a diagnosis.
So, understanding that there isa lot of value in paying that
(13:42):
extra money for a laboratorytest, whether it's they're
asking you to do a culture onceyou think you have a UTI, there
could be other issues that arecausing the animal to have
urinary symptoms.
So really considering thatdiagnostics can be worth the
money.
It isn't just a money grab,there is value for it.
It's just understanding thecontext and looking for those
results.
Lisa Fortier (14:03):
Fantastic.
We also know Kelly.
As we wind down, we like to aska personal question and before
I do that, I'm hoping to meetKelly in 3D when I go back for a
nephew's wedding in July, sohopefully we can have a coffee
together and exchange some greathorror stories.
Kelli Maddock (14:21):
Well, that would be great.
Lisa Fortier (14:22):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
So, Kelly and if you have itwith you, please feel free to
show it what is the oldest orthe most interesting item on
your desk or in your desk drawer?
Kelli Maddock (14:32):
Okay, so these have followed me since I
finished my internship.
But our fantasticmicrobiologist handmade little
clay bacteria.
It's a little bit to help usremember things, but also just
being silly.
They put it on culture loopsand gave it like a bouquet of
flowers, but a little ring ofStreptococcus, just reminding us
strep pyogenes.
(14:53):
She always personified bacteria, which would really help you
remember things.
I've got a little staff.
Some people would getCampylobacter, which she always
described as Farrah Fawcett andwith its flagella it was
whipping its hair around.
So these are on my desk.
I always think of Carol when Isee them.
They always make me happy.
Lisa Fortier (15:11):
Anthropomorphizing bacterium.
That's a new one for me.
Kelli Maddock (15:14):
Yeah Well, it's something pretty normal for us
microbiologists.
So good party trick, yep.
Sarah Wright (15:22):
You so good party, good party trick.
Yep, you make microbiologyseems so fun.
I love that.
Kelli Maddock (15:24):
It is super fun, there's no question about it
Awesome.
Sarah Wright (15:28):
Well, thank you so much, Kelly.
We appreciate you being theguest editor for this
supplemental issue and for alsosharing with our listeners some
insight into what they canexpect to gain from the articles
.
Kelli Maddock (15:38):
Awesome, so excited for everyone to check it
out.
A lot of really greatinformation inside.
Sarah Wright (15:44):
And to our listeners.
You can read the DiagnosticLaboratory Medicine Supplemental
Issue in Jafma.
I'm Sarah Wright with LisaFortier.
Be on the lookout for nextweek's episode and don't forget
to leave us a rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts or whatever
platform you listen to.
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