June 27, 2025 • 24 mins
Veterinary teams are complex systems where communication, shared goals, and mutual respect directly impact workplace satisfaction and staff retention. In this enlightening conversation, researchers Natasha Janke and Jason Coe reveal groundbreaking findings on the power of relational coordination in veterinary practice.
Originally developed in the airline industry to understand Southwest Airlines' exceptional performance, relational coordination has transformed healthcare delivery across multiple fields. Now, for the first time, this powerful framework has been applied to veterinary medicine with remarkable results. Natasha explains that relational coordination thrives in environments characterized by time pressure, uncertainty, and interdependence between roles—a perfect description of the veterinary workplace.
Their research demonstrates significant positive associations between relational coordination and healthier psychological workplace climate, increased job satisfaction, and perhaps most critically for practices struggling with staffing challenges, reduced intention to leave. By focusing on seven core components—frequent, timely, accurate, and problem-solving communication, alongside shared goals, shared knowledge, and mutual respect—veterinary teams can transform their workplace culture.
Dr. Coe's twenty-year journey pursuing this research reveals how veterinary practices can use relational coordination as a diagnostic tool to identify specific areas for improvement rather than implementing broad, sweeping changes. The visual mapping of role interdependencies provides practice leaders with clear insights into team dynamics that might otherwise remain invisible. Both researchers emphasize the importance of including clients in the relational coordination framework, recognizing pet owners as essential members of the veterinary healthcare team.
Listen now to discover how strengthening your team's relational coordination could revolutionize your practice culture, improve staff retention, and ultimately enhance patient care. The evidence is clear—how we work together truly matters for everyone involved in veterinary medicine.
JAVMA article: https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.24.09.0570
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of
the AVMA Journals.
In this episode, we chat abouthow veterinary team relational
coordination is associated withhealthier perception of
workplace psychological climate,increased job satisfaction and
reduced intention to leave withour guests Natasha Janke and
Jason Ko.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Veterinary Vertex.
I'm Editor-in-Chief, lisaFortier, and I'm joined by
Associate Editor, sarah Wright.
Today we have Natasha andrepeat guest and very prolific
JABMA contributor.
So thank you, jason, forjoining us.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thanks for having us back.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It's great to be here .
All right, let's dive right in.
So, Natasha, your JABMA articlediscusses the important role
that relational coordination mayhave for veterinary practices,
specifically in fosteringemployees' perceptions of the
workplace psychological climate,enhanced job satisfaction and
reducing employee attrition.
Please share with our listenersthe background on this article.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, I'd be happy to Sarah.
I think it's important to startwith some background information
on what relational coordinationis for any listeners who may
not be familiar with the concept.
So relational coordination is atheory that describes the
mutually reinforcing process ofcommunicating and relating for
the purpose of accomplishingwork tasks that require
(01:22):
interdependency among differentroles or even within the same
role.
It's been identified to be mostcritical in settings that are
characterized by time pressures,uncertainty, and consists of a
high level of interdependencybetween roles within a team.
And so, as you can imagine,veterinary medicine is an ideal
(01:44):
setting to start researchingrelational coordination, because
we have seen that patient careincreasingly involves veterinary
personnel in different roleswith different levels of
experience, training andresponsibilities.
So relational coordination wasinitially developed in the
airline industry, actually, andthere's been quite extensive
(02:05):
research done within humanhealth care, and consistently
it's been found that anassociation has been found
between relational coordinationand a reduction in medical
errors, improved efficienciesand overall positive health
outcomes for human patients.
So this is actually the firststudy that we are aware of to
(02:26):
measure relational coordinationin the context of veterinary
medicine, which is reallyexcited to take that first step
into this world of relationalcoordination within the
veterinary profession.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Very cool.
We are very happy to have thatwork in JAPMA.
So what are some of theimportant take-home messages
from this article?
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, Sarah.
I think one of the biggesttake-home messages here is that
how teams work together reallydoes make a difference for not
only veterinary teams butclients and, of course, patients
, and we're really just startingto create a foundation of
evidence around this work withinthe veterinary profession.
(03:11):
I think the results do speak forthemselves, in that we found a
significant positive associationbetween relational coordination
and workplace psychologicalclimate as well as job
satisfaction, and then we alsofound a reduction in employees'
intention to leave their currentrole, found a reduction in
employees' intention to leavetheir current role, and so we
see that by promoting frequent,timely, accurate and
problem-solving communication,as well as shared goals, shared
(03:34):
knowledge and mutual respect,which are the seven components
of relational coordination,there is an opportunity to
positively enhance workplaceculture and retention.
There is an opportunity topositively enhance workplace
culture and retention.
I think I would also add tothat to say that the article
provides a foundation from whichmore work can be accomplished,
(03:59):
and the alignment between ourfindings and what we're seeing
from large-scale reviews inhuman medicine really speaks to
the fact that there areopportunities to leverage
findings from human medicine inorder to develop interventions
that we can.
Opportunities to leveragefindings from human medicine in
order to develop interventionsthat we can then test within the
veterinary profession, in orderto identify training that can
be implemented to improve teamdynamics as well as outcomes of
care, by enhancing relationalcoordination among team members.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, thanks, natasha , that's a really great
explanation among team members.
Yeah, thanks, Natasha, that's areally great explanation.
Now I'll turn to Jason for asecond.
Jason, your team has looked atall different aspects of
veterinary medicine and whenthis one came in and I read it
the first time, I was surprisedand I thought Natasha did a
great job of saying it reallystarted in airline.
How did you find out about thisrelational coordination and
(04:42):
what sparked your interest in itin veterinary medicine?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, so this brings me back 20 years, and I think I
was doing my PhD when I cameacross the concept of relational
coordination and I don'tremember if it was.
I had attended a presentationby Jody Hoffer-Gattel or I had
learned or been introduced to it.
Yet, as Natasha mentioned, Iwas introduced to this concept
that was developed in theairline industry by Jody
(05:07):
Hoffer-Gattell back in the 1990s, and at that time this was
Jody's PhD work, where Jody wentin and looked at the airline
industry, because all of theairline industries were
struggling at that time exceptfor one, which was Southwest,
and so it was really trying tounderstand what is Southwest
doing differently from the otherairline industries, and so, by
(05:27):
examining how Southwest wasoperating, they were able to, or
she, came up with this conceptor theory of relational
coordination, as Natasha'snicely described.
It has since gone into humanhealthcare and I think it's now
studied in about 70 differentindustries, and so since that
time I've been really interestedin understanding how might this
(05:48):
relate to what we do inveterinary practice?
Because, as Natasha mentioned,it's been identified as a work
process or system that reallylends well to environments where
there's high uncertainty, wherethere's time pressures and
where there's highinterdependency between roles
and if we think about veterinarymedicine, that describes
veterinary medicine in that youdon't know what's going to walk
(06:09):
through the door.
We always are talking about thetime pressures we're under, and
then we appreciate theinterdependency of roles, and
it's not interdependency ofrelationships, it really is
looking at the role level interms of that, and so, because
of that interest, I probablyabout 2010, did a study with Dr
Irene Moore and somecollaborators, which were
(06:30):
published in JAVMA in 2014, Ibelieve where we developed a
team effectiveness tool forveterinary medicine, and part of
that was out of my interest inrelational coordination, which
led to an interest in looking atteams, and in that study, we
actually did measure relationalcoordination and we used it as
one of our validations of ourteam effectiveness tool.
(06:50):
In terms of the correlation withour measure of team
effectiveness, I had hoped to domore with it at that point in
time and, though team and teamdynamics I wouldn't say was an
area that was getting a lot ofattention, was an area that
there was a lot of supportfinancially in terms of funding
to pursue research Move forward.
(07:10):
I had many years, and I wouldsay four years ago, when the
pandemic hit.
I think that the veterinaryprofession experienced a
situation where there was a lotof attention by many
organizations on how we work asteams, and so it created an
environment, along with fundingthat came along in the form of
my VCA Canada Chair inRelationship Centred Veterinary
Medicine.
(07:30):
There was really perfect timingto again revisit this concept,
and so it really positioned usto go out and do this work, and
so, again, this has been a pieceof research I've wanted to do
for 20 years, and yet it justwasn't.
The timing wasn't right, andnow that timing has come and
we've been able to produce thispaper, which I believe will be
the start of only a whole workarea.
(07:50):
So, lisa, you mentioned thatyou were a bit surprised that
this came across.
I expect we will have many morepublications in this area over
the next little while.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Excellent.
Look forward to reading those,and I won't be so surprised,
given all that you both knowabout what things you saw in the
airline industry and all theother industries that you
mentioned by an aggregate, jason, what things in this article
surprised you that might beunique to the veterinary field?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, I think that's the piece is that I wouldn't say
that there was anything thatjumped out as a surprise per se.
I think what is reallyimportant is that we have now
taken something that has beenestablished in other areas and
shown that it is relevant toveterinary medicine, and so I do
think that it's like anything,things are transferable, but
until people see it in their owncontext, it's hard to
(08:39):
understand how it will fit intoour context, and so, as Natasha
mentioned earlier, what thisallows us is to take the work in
roughly 70 other industries,look at the things that they've
been able to demonstrate whichwere things that we expected and
why we looked at some of theoutcomes we did in this study
and start to use that not onlyto assess relational
(09:00):
coordination with veterinarymedicine, but actually start to
take some of the learnings on.
How can we continue to enhancehow we work as teams through
this concept of relationalcoordination.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
So we talked about how this is just the beginning,
really.
So, natasha, what are the nextsteps for research in veterinary
team relational coordination?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Well, sarah, that's a very exciting question because
we are already in the midst ofthose next steps, and so what
I'll share about this study isthat we examined relational
coordination at the level of anentire veterinary organization,
which included over 100veterinary clinics, and so, with
that in mind, we didn't quitereach the response rate to be
(09:41):
able to look at relationalcoordination at the level of an
individual hospital, where we'reseeing the perceptions of teams
that are working together dayto day, and so our next steps
are to narrow down our focus toinclude a smaller number of
hospitals and aim for thathigher response rate, and we've
(10:01):
been working really closely towork on increasing our response
rate from research participantsso that we can look at
relational coordination at thelevel of a hospital rather than
the entire organization level ofa hospital rather than the
entire organization.
So looking at those individualhospital-level results would
allow us to use those results asa baseline in order to develop
(10:24):
team training interventions thatare more tailored to those
individual hospitals rather thana more standardized approach
that is, across a number ofhospitals, and, long term, we do
hope that this can be ascalable training so that we can
reach a larger number ofhospitals through this training
(10:47):
approach to increase relationalcoordination, while also
remaining individualized, sothat when we're teaching or
training teams how to worktogether and improve their
relational coordination, we arefocused on results and data
that's coming from them as ateam, rather than general
(11:08):
results that are gathered fromacross a number of hospitals.
So it's really exciting to seeand think about where the
direction of this work is going.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Natasha and Jason, do you know about our technical
tutorial video manuscripts?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
We do.
I think we may have actuallysubmitted a couple, so thank you
.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I think you have.
I think this would be a greatteaching learning tool to
consider for a technicaltutorial video.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
We'll take that.
Thanks, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
A self-serving pitch and a lot of people learn right
better through watching anexample than reading it and, as
you know, for the listenersthey're also transcribed, so you
can read and watch at the sametime.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Really feeds to different learning styles, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And for our listeners .
If you want to see some oftheir already published work,
you can look at the TalkingPhysical Exam, which is one of
our technical tutorial videos,on YouTube, our website and our
social media channels.
So AI is obviously a pretty hottopic and we're starting to see
more AI in veterinary medicine.
We actually just published asupplemental issue in AJBR just
on AI and veterinary medicine.
(12:22):
So, jason, do you see a rolefor AI in this area of research?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah, it's an interesting question just
because of where we are with AIand the explosion of AI, and so
I do feel like AI is going tohave such a role in veterinary
medicine, probably atransformative role in
veterinary medicine over thenext number of years.
Exactly what that is, I'm sureyou know we've got some ideas
based on some of the things thatare out there, yet I think you
(12:49):
know could be anything wehaven't even thought of in terms
of what AI's role is, and so Ithink, in the work we're doing
whether it be team-basedclinical communication, I think
the role of AI and how thatcontributes to relationships,
particularly relationshipsbetween veterinary professionals
and their clients, veterinaryteam members and how they work
together AI is going to have arole, and so we're going to have
(13:12):
to keep on top of that and seehow that plays into the dynamics
, Because, as Natasha mentioned,part of relational coordination
is that relational dynamicthat's based on shared goals,
shared knowledge, mutual respect, and so I think AI could have a
role in making sure people haveshared knowledge, particularly,
which contributes to sharedgoals and mutual respect.
(13:33):
In terms of AI and the workthat we're doing specifically,
Natasha and I were chattingabout this and it's interesting.
You know, I see relationalcoordination as a potential
diagnostic tool for veterinaryteams to look at their team and
identify where the areas thatseem to be working well and what
are opportunities for us tomake some tweaks or adjustment.
And I think, as we learn moreand as systems come in place, to
(13:55):
use this diagnostic tool to putin place tailored as Natasha
mentioned strategies forstrengthening a team or aspects
of a team.
I'm curious as what AI couldoffer in that, in terms of
putting inputs in In thebackground.
This AI is doing the things tomake tailored recommendations
for a team and aspects of theteam to continually look at
(14:17):
opportunities to enhance thework that's being done, Because
I think by enhancing that teamwe enhance the culture of that
team, as our publication hasidentified, and by enhancing
that culture of the team weultimately impact the clients
and the patients that we carefor.
And so, to that point, I dothink that the future is a
little bit unknown in terms ofthat, but I do see the future as
(14:39):
really having some realexciting opportunities,
potentially in the realm of AI.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Very cool.
We're actually compiling theseresponses, so it's pretty
interesting to see what everyonesays to that question.
And for those of you justjoining us, we're discussing
veterinary team relationalcoordination with our guests
Natasha and Jason.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Natasha, a lot of our listeners are junior authors or
first or couple time authors,and so this next question can
really help them understand howyou got to this finish line,
understand how you got to thisfinish line.
So how did your training andprevious work really prepare you
to get all the way done andthrough, to get this all the way
done to publication and now onthe podcast, yeah, that's a
(15:24):
great question and thanks forasking it, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
I would say the foundation of my work has been
clinical communication.
So I completed a PhD inveterinary epidemiology with a
focus on clinical communication,veterinarians and their clients
(15:48):
, and then that expanded toexamine the role of veterinary
technicians to now involving theentire veterinary team.
And since clinicalcommunication or sorry,
communication is a corecomponent of relational
coordination theory, I had thatbackground coming into this work
.
But there's definitely a secondcomponent that I would add to
that, beyond my PhD research.
So over the last couple ofyears my work has began to
(16:12):
heavily focus on team-basedveterinary health care and I
actually completed a two-yearpostdoctoral fellowship through
an organization in Canada calledMyTax and they promote
collaborations between academiaand industry called MyTax, and
they promote collaborationsbetween academia and industry.
So through that postdoc I wasable to spend a lot of time
hands-on working with veterinaryteams while I was conducting my
(16:35):
research and I think thatreally gave me the opportunity
to immerse myself in theeveryday of what we were
researching.
So you don't always get thatopportunity, but I think that
was what really rounded out thecommunication and team-based
veterinary medicine that youknow came together to form this
work and there's somethingreally powerful about being able
(16:57):
to, you know, live theexperiences or live in the
environment that you're studying, because you get to see things
that numbers don't alwayscapture and that can help you
make sense of those numbers whenyou're collecting survey data,
like we did with this study.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Definitely something to be said about being boots on
the ground, that's for sure.
Now, Jason, as you know, thisnext set of questions is going
to be super important for ourlisteners.
The first one is going to beabout the veterinarian's
perspective.
So, Jason, what is one piece ofinformation the veterinarian
should know about veterinaryteam relational coordination.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, that's a big question and I think what I
would say is we all appreciatethat teams are complex, how
teams work, and so particularlyfor veterinarians, oftentimes in
that leadership role, whenlooking for how do I enhance my
team or maybe the team's notfunctioning in the way that as a
whole we want the team to work,where can I make changes?
(17:53):
Because it's challenging tomake one broad, sweeping change
and expect that to reallyenhance the entire team.
And so what I think relationalcoordination does is it offers
us an opportunity to work tolook at veterinary practices or
teams within a veterinarypractice, sort of at that system
level, by looking at theinterdependency between roles.
And so in our publication thereis a figure called a relational
(18:16):
map and if you look at that itreally demonstrates the
complexity of theinterdependency of roles within
a veterinary practice.
And yet that map can also beused to identify where are some
of the elements as it relates torelational coordination working
really well within our team andwhere are some opportunities
that we could work with aconnection within our team to
really enhance that area ofrelational coordination.
(18:39):
And you can use relationalcoordination at the practice
level, as we did, or you coulduse it on a very specific work
process, and so I think itoffers a lot of different
opportunities.
And so, as I mentioned earlier,it becomes that diagnostic tool
that we can get someinformation, reflect on that
information and hopefully createa plan for how we want to
support that area of our team.
(19:01):
We implement that and then wereevaluate and it becomes this
sort of cycle that we can use toreally continue to support our
team and bring our team up andsupport it in areas that we can
identify through this theory andparticularly those relational
maps.
And so I'd encourage people totake a peek at that in the
article because it's prettyimpressive to me on how complex
(19:23):
a team is when you look at it inthat way.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Natasha on the other side of the relationship.
What's one thing that clientsshould know about this topic?
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I love this question because I try to always think
about the client when I'mconducting research.
So clients can play a veryimportant role in relational
coordination and I always thinkof clients as being part of the
veterinary team when I'mthinking about team-based
veterinary health care.
So, with respect to relationalcoordination, I would highlight
(19:54):
the component of shared goals,because clients have an
opportunity to enhance thisaspect of relational
coordination with theirveterinary team by sharing their
preferences, their values andtheir goals that they have for
their pet with that team, sothat the client's goals become
integrated with the goals of theteam.
(20:14):
And I might be cherry pickingthis aspect of relational
coordination because I have donea lot of work around shared
decision making, so I do have anaffinity towards that component
of relational coordination.
But if we're thinking about anyaspect, any of the seven
aspects of relationalcoordination, I do think it's
(20:37):
important for veterinaryprofessionals to view clients as
team members because theyreally are such an essential
component to providing care forthat animal outside of the
clinic.
And, as Jason was talking aboutthe relational maps, I have a
goal of one day incorporatingthe client into that so that
we're getting that full 360perspective of relational
coordination that actuallyincludes the client's view on it
(20:58):
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And I would just jump in to say, like I can't
overemphasize Natasha'shighlighting of the client as
being part of this relationalcoordination map in terms of
their role, and it's often leftout, and so in human medicine,
relational coordination at itsfullest would include the
patient as part of that and inour context, the client.
And yet it's often left out andso we didn't have a way of
(21:23):
doing that.
Yeah, I think Natasha's pointis critical that we should be
thinking of the client as partof this team, because it's going
to impact all the outcomeswe're going for, whether it be
within our team, our clients orour patients.
So just want to emphasize that.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I think that's particularly important when
people veterinarians or medicalprofessionals are first starting
like to really listen to theclient and take their feedback.
You know, I remember when I wasfirst starting and somebody
would, you know, mentionsomething and I was like, well,
that's not medically important,but you know, just to really
empower them to share thatinformation and be part of the
(21:57):
journey, at least they get toask the fun question.
Great, thank you guys again forbeing with us.
Uh, super important topicacross.
As for us being our ownpatients or clients, really look
forward to your futurecontributions.
And as we wind down, we ask alittle more fun question, sarah,
and I think we can most of thetime predict this, but we'll see
(22:19):
.
So we'll start with Natasha andthen go to Jason.
When you complete a puzzle,natasha, do you start with the
border in the exterior or themiddle?
Do you start with a pattern, acolor?
How do you go about attacking apuzzle?
Speaker 4 (22:33):
I think I probably take a pretty common approach by
starting with the exterior, butI do, as I'm pulling out those
pieces, I do look for, you know,if I'm seeing patterns that are
in the interior that might beprobably easier to put together
and I might pull those out andstart working on both at the
same time.
I think it's rare that I wouldcomplete the border without
(22:56):
having started the interior aswell.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I had you for a hybrid as well.
Hybrid approach, Jason.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Transparently.
I don't know the last time Idid a puzzle, and yet when I
think about approaching a puzzle, I do think about the border,
because I can see where that issupposed to go.
And so I start there.
And yet, as I was reflecting onthis question, I was thinking I
mean, I really approachresearch as a puzzle and so if I
was to say how do I approachresearch, I probably approach
research from the middle,working out to the borders, in
(23:28):
terms of trying to understandand letting that guide me to
where the next piece would be.
So it's an interesting analogywhen I start thinking about it
in that way.
Lisa.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, great analogy.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, way to tie in research to that.
You're actually the firstperson to do that, I think,
jason, and we ask that questiona lot.
Well, thank you again, jasonand Tasha, for being here with
us and also for submitting yourresearch to JAVMA.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having usand to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
you can read Jason and Tasha's article in JAVMA.
I'm Sarah Wright with Visa40A.
Be on the lookout for nextweek's episode and don't forget
to leave us a rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts or whatever
platform you listen to.
You're listening to Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of
the AVMA Journals.
In this episode, we chat abouthow veterinary team relational
coordination is associated withhealthier perception of
workplace psychological climate,increased job satisfaction and
reduced intention to leave withour guests Natasha Janke and
Jason Ko.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Veterinary Vertex.
I'm Editor-in-Chief, lisaFortier, and I'm joined by
Associate Editor, sarah Wright.
Today we have Natasha andrepeat guest and very prolific
JABMA contributor.
So thank you, jason, forjoining us.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thanks for having us back.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It's great to be here .
All right, let's dive right in.
So, Natasha, your JABMA articlediscusses the important role
that relational coordination mayhave for veterinary practices,
specifically in fosteringemployees' perceptions of the
workplace psychological climate,enhanced job satisfaction and
reducing employee attrition.
Please share with our listenersthe background on this article.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, I'd be happy to Sarah.
I think it's important to startwith some background information
on what relational coordinationis for any listeners who may
not be familiar with the concept.
So relational coordination is atheory that describes the
mutually reinforcing process ofcommunicating and relating for
the purpose of accomplishingwork tasks that require
(01:22):
interdependency among differentroles or even within the same
role.
It's been identified to be mostcritical in settings that are
characterized by time pressures,uncertainty, and consists of a
high level of interdependencybetween roles within a team.
And so, as you can imagine,veterinary medicine is an ideal
(01:44):
setting to start researchingrelational coordination, because
we have seen that patient careincreasingly involves veterinary
personnel in different roleswith different levels of
experience, training andresponsibilities.
So relational coordination wasinitially developed in the
airline industry, actually, andthere's been quite extensive
(02:05):
research done within humanhealth care, and consistently
it's been found that anassociation has been found
between relational coordinationand a reduction in medical
errors, improved efficienciesand overall positive health
outcomes for human patients.
So this is actually the firststudy that we are aware of to
(02:26):
measure relational coordinationin the context of veterinary
medicine, which is reallyexcited to take that first step
into this world of relationalcoordination within the
veterinary profession.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Very cool.
We are very happy to have thatwork in JAPMA.
So what are some of theimportant take-home messages
from this article?
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, Sarah.
I think one of the biggesttake-home messages here is that
how teams work together reallydoes make a difference for not
only veterinary teams butclients and, of course, patients
, and we're really just startingto create a foundation of
evidence around this work withinthe veterinary profession.
(03:11):
I think the results do speak forthemselves, in that we found a
significant positive associationbetween relational coordination
and workplace psychologicalclimate as well as job
satisfaction, and then we alsofound a reduction in employees'
intention to leave their currentrole, found a reduction in
employees' intention to leavetheir current role, and so we
see that by promoting frequent,timely, accurate and
problem-solving communication,as well as shared goals, shared
(03:34):
knowledge and mutual respect,which are the seven components
of relational coordination,there is an opportunity to
positively enhance workplaceculture and retention.
There is an opportunity topositively enhance workplace
culture and retention.
I think I would also add tothat to say that the article
provides a foundation from whichmore work can be accomplished,
(03:59):
and the alignment between ourfindings and what we're seeing
from large-scale reviews inhuman medicine really speaks to
the fact that there areopportunities to leverage
findings from human medicine inorder to develop interventions
that we can.
Opportunities to leveragefindings from human medicine in
order to develop interventionsthat we can then test within the
veterinary profession, in orderto identify training that can
be implemented to improve teamdynamics as well as outcomes of
care, by enhancing relationalcoordination among team members.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, thanks, natasha , that's a really great
explanation among team members.
Yeah, thanks, Natasha, that's areally great explanation.
Now I'll turn to Jason for asecond.
Jason, your team has looked atall different aspects of
veterinary medicine and whenthis one came in and I read it
the first time, I was surprisedand I thought Natasha did a
great job of saying it reallystarted in airline.
How did you find out about thisrelational coordination and
(04:42):
what sparked your interest in itin veterinary medicine?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, so this brings me back 20 years, and I think I
was doing my PhD when I cameacross the concept of relational
coordination and I don'tremember if it was.
I had attended a presentationby Jody Hoffer-Gattel or I had
learned or been introduced to it.
Yet, as Natasha mentioned, Iwas introduced to this concept
that was developed in theairline industry by Jody
(05:07):
Hoffer-Gattell back in the 1990s, and at that time this was
Jody's PhD work, where Jody wentin and looked at the airline
industry, because all of theairline industries were
struggling at that time exceptfor one, which was Southwest,
and so it was really trying tounderstand what is Southwest
doing differently from the otherairline industries, and so, by
(05:27):
examining how Southwest wasoperating, they were able to, or
she, came up with this conceptor theory of relational
coordination, as Natasha'snicely described.
It has since gone into humanhealthcare and I think it's now
studied in about 70 differentindustries, and so since that
time I've been really interestedin understanding how might this
(05:48):
relate to what we do inveterinary practice?
Because, as Natasha mentioned,it's been identified as a work
process or system that reallylends well to environments where
there's high uncertainty, wherethere's time pressures and
where there's highinterdependency between roles
and if we think about veterinarymedicine, that describes
veterinary medicine in that youdon't know what's going to walk
(06:09):
through the door.
We always are talking about thetime pressures we're under, and
then we appreciate theinterdependency of roles, and
it's not interdependency ofrelationships, it really is
looking at the role level interms of that, and so, because
of that interest, I probablyabout 2010, did a study with Dr
Irene Moore and somecollaborators, which were
(06:30):
published in JAVMA in 2014, Ibelieve where we developed a
team effectiveness tool forveterinary medicine, and part of
that was out of my interest inrelational coordination, which
led to an interest in looking atteams, and in that study, we
actually did measure relationalcoordination and we used it as
one of our validations of ourteam effectiveness tool.
(06:50):
In terms of the correlation withour measure of team
effectiveness, I had hoped to domore with it at that point in
time and, though team and teamdynamics I wouldn't say was an
area that was getting a lot ofattention, was an area that
there was a lot of supportfinancially in terms of funding
to pursue research Move forward.
(07:10):
I had many years, and I wouldsay four years ago, when the
pandemic hit.
I think that the veterinaryprofession experienced a
situation where there was a lotof attention by many
organizations on how we work asteams, and so it created an
environment, along with fundingthat came along in the form of
my VCA Canada Chair inRelationship Centred Veterinary
Medicine.
(07:30):
There was really perfect timingto again revisit this concept,
and so it really positioned usto go out and do this work, and
so, again, this has been a pieceof research I've wanted to do
for 20 years, and yet it justwasn't.
The timing wasn't right, andnow that timing has come and
we've been able to produce thispaper, which I believe will be
the start of only a whole workarea.
(07:50):
So, lisa, you mentioned thatyou were a bit surprised that
this came across.
I expect we will have many morepublications in this area over
the next little while.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Excellent.
Look forward to reading those,and I won't be so surprised,
given all that you both knowabout what things you saw in the
airline industry and all theother industries that you
mentioned by an aggregate, jason, what things in this article
surprised you that might beunique to the veterinary field?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, I think that's the piece is that I wouldn't say
that there was anything thatjumped out as a surprise per se.
I think what is reallyimportant is that we have now
taken something that has beenestablished in other areas and
shown that it is relevant toveterinary medicine, and so I do
think that it's like anything,things are transferable, but
until people see it in their owncontext, it's hard to
(08:39):
understand how it will fit intoour context, and so, as Natasha
mentioned earlier, what thisallows us is to take the work in
roughly 70 other industries,look at the things that they've
been able to demonstrate whichwere things that we expected and
why we looked at some of theoutcomes we did in this study
and start to use that not onlyto assess relational
(09:00):
coordination with veterinarymedicine, but actually start to
take some of the learnings on.
How can we continue to enhancehow we work as teams through
this concept of relationalcoordination.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
So we talked about how this is just the beginning,
really.
So, natasha, what are the nextsteps for research in veterinary
team relational coordination?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Well, sarah, that's a very exciting question because
we are already in the midst ofthose next steps, and so what
I'll share about this study isthat we examined relational
coordination at the level of anentire veterinary organization,
which included over 100veterinary clinics, and so, with
that in mind, we didn't quitereach the response rate to be
(09:41):
able to look at relationalcoordination at the level of an
individual hospital, where we'reseeing the perceptions of teams
that are working together dayto day, and so our next steps
are to narrow down our focus toinclude a smaller number of
hospitals and aim for thathigher response rate, and we've
(10:01):
been working really closely towork on increasing our response
rate from research participantsso that we can look at
relational coordination at thelevel of a hospital rather than
the entire organization level ofa hospital rather than the
entire organization.
So looking at those individualhospital-level results would
allow us to use those results asa baseline in order to develop
(10:24):
team training interventions thatare more tailored to those
individual hospitals rather thana more standardized approach
that is, across a number ofhospitals, and, long term, we do
hope that this can be ascalable training so that we can
reach a larger number ofhospitals through this training
(10:47):
approach to increase relationalcoordination, while also
remaining individualized, sothat when we're teaching or
training teams how to worktogether and improve their
relational coordination, we arefocused on results and data
that's coming from them as ateam, rather than general
(11:08):
results that are gathered fromacross a number of hospitals.
So it's really exciting to seeand think about where the
direction of this work is going.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Natasha and Jason, do you know about our technical
tutorial video manuscripts?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
We do.
I think we may have actuallysubmitted a couple, so thank you
.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I think you have.
I think this would be a greatteaching learning tool to
consider for a technicaltutorial video.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
We'll take that.
Thanks, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
A self-serving pitch and a lot of people learn right
better through watching anexample than reading it and, as
you know, for the listenersthey're also transcribed, so you
can read and watch at the sametime.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Really feeds to different learning styles, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And for our listeners .
If you want to see some oftheir already published work,
you can look at the TalkingPhysical Exam, which is one of
our technical tutorial videos,on YouTube, our website and our
social media channels.
So AI is obviously a pretty hottopic and we're starting to see
more AI in veterinary medicine.
We actually just published asupplemental issue in AJBR just
on AI and veterinary medicine.
(12:22):
So, jason, do you see a rolefor AI in this area of research?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah, it's an interesting question just
because of where we are with AIand the explosion of AI, and so
I do feel like AI is going tohave such a role in veterinary
medicine, probably atransformative role in
veterinary medicine over thenext number of years.
Exactly what that is, I'm sureyou know we've got some ideas
based on some of the things thatare out there, yet I think you
(12:49):
know could be anything wehaven't even thought of in terms
of what AI's role is, and so Ithink, in the work we're doing
whether it be team-basedclinical communication, I think
the role of AI and how thatcontributes to relationships,
particularly relationshipsbetween veterinary professionals
and their clients, veterinaryteam members and how they work
together AI is going to have arole, and so we're going to have
(13:12):
to keep on top of that and seehow that plays into the dynamics
, Because, as Natasha mentioned,part of relational coordination
is that relational dynamicthat's based on shared goals,
shared knowledge, mutual respect, and so I think AI could have a
role in making sure people haveshared knowledge, particularly,
which contributes to sharedgoals and mutual respect.
(13:33):
In terms of AI and the workthat we're doing specifically,
Natasha and I were chattingabout this and it's interesting.
You know, I see relationalcoordination as a potential
diagnostic tool for veterinaryteams to look at their team and
identify where the areas thatseem to be working well and what
are opportunities for us tomake some tweaks or adjustment.
And I think, as we learn moreand as systems come in place, to
(13:55):
use this diagnostic tool to putin place tailored as Natasha
mentioned strategies forstrengthening a team or aspects
of a team.
I'm curious as what AI couldoffer in that, in terms of
putting inputs in In thebackground.
This AI is doing the things tomake tailored recommendations
for a team and aspects of theteam to continually look at
(14:17):
opportunities to enhance thework that's being done, Because
I think by enhancing that teamwe enhance the culture of that
team, as our publication hasidentified, and by enhancing
that culture of the team weultimately impact the clients
and the patients that we carefor.
And so, to that point, I dothink that the future is a
little bit unknown in terms ofthat, but I do see the future as
(14:39):
really having some realexciting opportunities,
potentially in the realm of AI.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Very cool.
We're actually compiling theseresponses, so it's pretty
interesting to see what everyonesays to that question.
And for those of you justjoining us, we're discussing
veterinary team relationalcoordination with our guests
Natasha and Jason.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Natasha, a lot of our listeners are junior authors or
first or couple time authors,and so this next question can
really help them understand howyou got to this finish line,
understand how you got to thisfinish line.
So how did your training andprevious work really prepare you
to get all the way done andthrough, to get this all the way
done to publication and now onthe podcast, yeah, that's a
(15:24):
great question and thanks forasking it, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
I would say the foundation of my work has been
clinical communication.
So I completed a PhD inveterinary epidemiology with a
focus on clinical communication,veterinarians and their clients
(15:48):
, and then that expanded toexamine the role of veterinary
technicians to now involving theentire veterinary team.
And since clinicalcommunication or sorry,
communication is a corecomponent of relational
coordination theory, I had thatbackground coming into this work
.
But there's definitely a secondcomponent that I would add to
that, beyond my PhD research.
So over the last couple ofyears my work has began to
(16:12):
heavily focus on team-basedveterinary health care and I
actually completed a two-yearpostdoctoral fellowship through
an organization in Canada calledMyTax and they promote
collaborations between academiaand industry called MyTax, and
they promote collaborationsbetween academia and industry.
So through that postdoc I wasable to spend a lot of time
hands-on working with veterinaryteams while I was conducting my
(16:35):
research and I think thatreally gave me the opportunity
to immerse myself in theeveryday of what we were
researching.
So you don't always get thatopportunity, but I think that
was what really rounded out thecommunication and team-based
veterinary medicine that youknow came together to form this
work and there's somethingreally powerful about being able
(16:57):
to, you know, live theexperiences or live in the
environment that you're studying, because you get to see things
that numbers don't alwayscapture and that can help you
make sense of those numbers whenyou're collecting survey data,
like we did with this study.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Definitely something to be said about being boots on
the ground, that's for sure.
Now, Jason, as you know, thisnext set of questions is going
to be super important for ourlisteners.
The first one is going to beabout the veterinarian's
perspective.
So, Jason, what is one piece ofinformation the veterinarian
should know about veterinaryteam relational coordination.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, that's a big question and I think what I
would say is we all appreciatethat teams are complex, how
teams work, and so particularlyfor veterinarians, oftentimes in
that leadership role, whenlooking for how do I enhance my
team or maybe the team's notfunctioning in the way that as a
whole we want the team to work,where can I make changes?
(17:53):
Because it's challenging tomake one broad, sweeping change
and expect that to reallyenhance the entire team.
And so what I think relationalcoordination does is it offers
us an opportunity to work tolook at veterinary practices or
teams within a veterinarypractice, sort of at that system
level, by looking at theinterdependency between roles.
And so in our publication thereis a figure called a relational
(18:16):
map and if you look at that itreally demonstrates the
complexity of theinterdependency of roles within
a veterinary practice.
And yet that map can also beused to identify where are some
of the elements as it relates torelational coordination working
really well within our team andwhere are some opportunities
that we could work with aconnection within our team to
really enhance that area ofrelational coordination.
(18:39):
And you can use relationalcoordination at the practice
level, as we did, or you coulduse it on a very specific work
process, and so I think itoffers a lot of different
opportunities.
And so, as I mentioned earlier,it becomes that diagnostic tool
that we can get someinformation, reflect on that
information and hopefully createa plan for how we want to
support that area of our team.
(19:01):
We implement that and then wereevaluate and it becomes this
sort of cycle that we can use toreally continue to support our
team and bring our team up andsupport it in areas that we can
identify through this theory andparticularly those relational
maps.
And so I'd encourage people totake a peek at that in the
article because it's prettyimpressive to me on how complex
(19:23):
a team is when you look at it inthat way.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Natasha on the other side of the relationship.
What's one thing that clientsshould know about this topic?
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I love this question because I try to always think
about the client when I'mconducting research.
So clients can play a veryimportant role in relational
coordination and I always thinkof clients as being part of the
veterinary team when I'mthinking about team-based
veterinary health care.
So, with respect to relationalcoordination, I would highlight
(19:54):
the component of shared goals,because clients have an
opportunity to enhance thisaspect of relational
coordination with theirveterinary team by sharing their
preferences, their values andtheir goals that they have for
their pet with that team, sothat the client's goals become
integrated with the goals of theteam.
(20:14):
And I might be cherry pickingthis aspect of relational
coordination because I have donea lot of work around shared
decision making, so I do have anaffinity towards that component
of relational coordination.
But if we're thinking about anyaspect, any of the seven
aspects of relationalcoordination, I do think it's
(20:37):
important for veterinaryprofessionals to view clients as
team members because theyreally are such an essential
component to providing care forthat animal outside of the
clinic.
And, as Jason was talking aboutthe relational maps, I have a
goal of one day incorporatingthe client into that so that
we're getting that full 360perspective of relational
coordination that actuallyincludes the client's view on it
(20:58):
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And I would just jump in to say, like I can't
overemphasize Natasha'shighlighting of the client as
being part of this relationalcoordination map in terms of
their role, and it's often leftout, and so in human medicine,
relational coordination at itsfullest would include the
patient as part of that and inour context, the client.
And yet it's often left out andso we didn't have a way of
(21:23):
doing that.
Yeah, I think Natasha's pointis critical that we should be
thinking of the client as partof this team, because it's going
to impact all the outcomeswe're going for, whether it be
within our team, our clients orour patients.
So just want to emphasize that.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I think that's particularly important when
people veterinarians or medicalprofessionals are first starting
like to really listen to theclient and take their feedback.
You know, I remember when I wasfirst starting and somebody
would, you know, mentionsomething and I was like, well,
that's not medically important,but you know, just to really
empower them to share thatinformation and be part of the
(21:57):
journey, at least they get toask the fun question.
Great, thank you guys again forbeing with us.
Uh, super important topicacross.
As for us being our ownpatients or clients, really look
forward to your futurecontributions.
And as we wind down, we ask alittle more fun question, sarah,
and I think we can most of thetime predict this, but we'll see
(22:19):
.
So we'll start with Natasha andthen go to Jason.
When you complete a puzzle,natasha, do you start with the
border in the exterior or themiddle?
Do you start with a pattern, acolor?
How do you go about attacking apuzzle?
Speaker 4 (22:33):
I think I probably take a pretty common approach by
starting with the exterior, butI do, as I'm pulling out those
pieces, I do look for, you know,if I'm seeing patterns that are
in the interior that might beprobably easier to put together
and I might pull those out andstart working on both at the
same time.
I think it's rare that I wouldcomplete the border without
(22:56):
having started the interior aswell.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I had you for a hybrid as well.
Hybrid approach, Jason.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Transparently.
I don't know the last time Idid a puzzle, and yet when I
think about approaching a puzzle, I do think about the border,
because I can see where that issupposed to go.
And so I start there.
And yet, as I was reflecting onthis question, I was thinking I
mean, I really approachresearch as a puzzle and so if I
was to say how do I approachresearch, I probably approach
research from the middle,working out to the borders, in
(23:28):
terms of trying to understandand letting that guide me to
where the next piece would be.
So it's an interesting analogywhen I start thinking about it
in that way.
Lisa.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, great analogy.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, way to tie in research to that.
You're actually the firstperson to do that, I think,
jason, and we ask that questiona lot.
Well, thank you again, jasonand Tasha, for being here with
us and also for submitting yourresearch to JAVMA.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having usand to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
you can read Jason and Tasha's article in JAVMA.
I'm Sarah Wright with Visa40A.
Be on the lookout for nextweek's episode and don't forget
to leave us a rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts or whatever
platform you listen to.
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