June 4, 2024 • 37 mins
Vetsplanation's latest episode features Dr. Sugerman and Dr. Petra Černá, the Crazy Cat Vet, discussing the fundamental needs of cats and how to address common behavioral issues. Learn about the five pillars that are crucial for a cat's happiness and health, and gain practical advice on environmental enrichment and proactive care. Tune in to become the ultimate cat parent and enhance your pet's quality of life.
What You Will Learn:
- The five fundamental needs of cats: safe place, resources, play, social interaction, and smell
- How to create a cat-friendly environment to prevent behavioral issues
- Practical tips for addressing cat stress and anxiety
- The importance of proactive care versus reactive problem-solving
- How to identify signs of stress in cats and address them effectively
- The role of safe spaces and high perches in a multi-cat household
- Why it's essential to respect a cat's sense of smell and provide unscented litters
- The benefits of using puzzle toys and interactive feeders for mental stimulation
- Best practices for setting up litter boxes and feeding stations
- Insights into cat socialization and how to foster positive human-cat interactions
Resources
Crazy Cat Vet Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Sugerman (00:00):
Think your cat's content with just food, water,
and a cozy corner to nap in?
Think again.
It turns out our feline friendshave five fundamental needs,
known as the five pillars.
The safe place, ample resources,opportunities for play and
predator-like behavior, socialinteractions, and the use of
smell.
Today on our podcast, we'rediving into the fascinating
(00:22):
world of cat behavior with noneother than Dr.
Černá, affectionately known asthe Crazy Cat Vet.
We'll uncover why misbehavingmight just be your cat's way of
saying that one of theseessential needs is not being
met.
Join me, Dr.
Sugerman, on Vetsplanation, thepodcast that simplifies pet
health.
As we learn from Dr.
Černá how truly to understandour feline companions and
(00:44):
transform ourselves into theultimate cat parents.
Tune in and elevate your catcaregiving game.
All right, welcome back toVetsplanation everybody.
Thank you so much for returningto our show.
We actually have the Crazy CatVet on again today, Dr.
Petra Černá.
And we're going to be talkingabout cat behavior today, which
I'm sure lots of cat parents arereally excited to learn about.
(01:08):
How are you doing, Dr.
Černá?
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:09):
I am great.
So nice to be here again andactually talk about one of my
favorite topics, which is catbehavior.
Dr. Sugerman (01:16):
I feel like just cat, cat topics in general is
your favorite.
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:20):
Yes, for sure.
I definitely wouldn't be heretalking about dogs.
Dr. Sugerman (01:24):
Right.
In veterinary medicine, we talka lot about environmental
enrichment and likeenvironmental modifications, but
I feel like that's like more ofa response to a problem and not
really thinking about how we canset up these environmental needs
for cats before it becomes aproblem.
So how do you think that is adifferent thinking?
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:43):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
for example, I have beenbreeding cats for almost 20
years, actually.
Dr. Sugerman (01:51):
That's a long time.
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:52):
Exactly.
And it's impossible to breedcats with one cat.
So I have always had multi cathouseholds.
And the only time I have notbeen breeding cats was for about
five years of my life.
And it was through myinternships and residencies.
Dr. Sugerman (02:10):
I can see why.
Dr. Petra Cerna (02:11):
I had no time and no money to actually provide
a really good environment formulti cat household.
So I took a little break thereand just last year we had our
first litter after five years.
And I just have six kittens athome actually right now.
But I bought a four bedroomhouse for my cats.
Dr. Sugerman (02:33):
For just you and your cats if I remember
correctly, right?
It's like literally just for thecats, yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (02:37):
I don't need that much in my life.
So I have a big house.
We have two catios, one for theboy, and then the girls share
their own, like a huge catio aswell.
And when I was actually lookingfor my house, I was, I was like
with the HOAs well, I need to,before I signed my contract, I
was like, I need to make surethe HOA is going to allow that I
(02:58):
have a catio.
And I really just see like whenI enter a house, I'm like, Oh my
God, this is great for the cats.
This is not, but I alsounderstand that not everybody is
this crazy, right?
That's why I'm the Crazy CatVet..
Crazy cat lady.
Dr. Sugerman (03:13):
Yep.
Dr. Petra Cerna (03:14):
Because I think nobody is this crazy to go and
buy a house for their cats.
Dr. Sugerman (03:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially like a four bedroomhouse for the cats, right?
There's you could have maybe abedroom.
Dr. Petra Cerna (03:23):
Yeah.
Exactly.
No, my, my cats definitely haveplenty of space.
And even when I moved to UnitedStates, actually first time, the
only two things that were in myhouse, they're inflatable
mattress, cat tree, And the nicecat litter robot.
So they had way more furniturethan I had when I moved in.
(03:44):
But again, I really do notexpect people to spend fortune
and all their money and alltheir savings on their cats.
But I still think we can reallybe very proactive and really,
when we are looking at our houseand maybe even considering
getting a second cat or thirdcat into the household or even
(04:04):
sometimes making changes whenour cats age, right?
We spoke about some senior carein the talk last time.
So all of these areenvironmental modifications that
we can do.
And I promise they're not gonnacost you your life savings.
Dr. Sugerman (04:17):
Absolutely.
What do you think about tryingto be more proactive about it,
though, versus just trying torespond to the situations
instead?
Dr. Petra Cerna (04:24):
Yeah, I think being proactive is very, very
important.
So I think thinking veryproactively about what, what
cats are like in nature.
So we all know that cats areboth predators, but they also
prey in nature, right?
So they really want to go andhunt mice and birds and all of,
all of those little critters.
(04:46):
But also they really, are beingalso prey for some other larger
animals.
And so for example, if we havedogs in the house, we really
should make sure the cats have asafe place to hide.
For example, and this could belike above, ground levels.
So it's somewhere very safe forthe cats where the cat feels
(05:08):
safe and knows that no one elsecan get there.
So simply putting shelves on thewall, for example, provides a
lot of safety.
So I've had one client that.
Whose cat had behavioral issuesand was very anxious.
And I was like do you have likesafe places for, for the cat?
Because they had a toddler atthat time and they were like,
(05:28):
yeah, yeah.
We have six hiding boxes andthey were all on the floor.
Dr. Sugerman (05:32):
Where the toddler can get to.
Dr. Petra Cerna (05:34):
Exactly.
So the cat had absolutely nospace to get to where the
toddler couldn't, couldn't reachher.
That's always like just tryingto think where the cat would
feel safe, for example.
And most of these are actuallylike above, above the ground
level.
Or for example, on the wall, Ihave a full one wall where we
(05:55):
have like shelves that go fromthe bottom to the top.
And the two top ones are alwaysthe ones that are constantly
full.
Even though there's 20 of them,nobody lays on the intermediate
levels.
Everybody always lays on the toplevel.
So it's really thinkingproactively.
How I can make my cat feel safein my house.
Dr. Sugerman (06:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
We even have a cat that she willonly hide in the pantry.
That's, we have shelves andstuff up for them.
We definitely have high places,but she is one of the older
cats, she's 14.
So I think that getting up therehigher is much harder, but we've
definitely had to adapt to like,she wants to be in the pantry.
She gets to go in the pantry.
We have we've set up an area towhere she has a little hidey
(06:36):
hole that she can get into, andthen nobody else can see her
after that.
Dr. Petra Cerna (06:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
When just now, when one of mycats actually was pregnant, her
favorite place was really tohide in between all my, all my
cooking stuff.
Dr. Sugerman (06:50):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (06:52):
And I was like, this is like, you know, and I
have like a lot of space for herto hide..
Exactly.
And literally she would just begoing and and, and sleeping in
between my cooking appliances.
It's, like, oh my God.
Dr. Sugerman (07:05):
You're like I'll just have to re wash these every
time I use them.
Fine.
Dr. Petra Cerna (07:08):
Exactly.
Dr. Sugerman (07:10):
Even if we've tried to make sure that we've
been proactive about this, like,how do you think cats show
stress?
Do they readily show stresslike, like a lot of dogs do, or
do they hide it a lot?
Dr. Petra Cerna (07:20):
I think cats definitely hide things very,
very well.
So with stress, it couldactually be that they are just
hiding and they don't want to bearound us or in the environment
where they don't feel safe.
But cats definitely can be verydifficult to show us that they
are stressed.
They're not feeling comfortablewith something as well.
(07:41):
So I think really watching outthen just subtle changes like.
The cat just not being sofriendly towards the owner and
they don't want to cuddle asmuch as they used to, or really
just like keeping to themselves,all of these signs could be
potentially, we could see thatour cats are stressed.
Dr. Sugerman (07:58):
Do you see other behavioral things such as like
urinating outside the litterboxes as things like stress?
Dr. Petra Cerna (08:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we really need toget away from this
misconceptions of this is a meancat.
And he is peeing all over myhouse because he's mad, and he
wants me to be mad.
And this like vengeance or angrycats and all of that.
I really, really dislike thistype of like very negative
language with cats, because Ireally believe that cats are
(08:27):
very misunderstood creaturesvery often and cats never do
anything intentionally, right?
So they will not go and pee inour favorite spot on a sofa
because, you know, they areupset and they want us to be
upset or something.
Usually for them, it's reallyshowing us that something's
(08:47):
wrong with them and that we needto do something to help them
out.
Dr. Sugerman (08:52):
Yeah, I had one of my technicians had mentioned the
other day that her cat had peedand the laundry basket.
We talked more about it.
I learned that it's because thecat had to get past a baby gate
past where another cat was thatthey don't like in order to be
able to get to that litter box.
And talked about how it wasn'tbecause it was the cat was angry
at them or vengeful.
(09:13):
Like it was really just thatthey were afraid.
Dr. Petra Cerna (09:17):
Exactly.
And I think this is really,really important kind of
mentality when we think aboutbehavioral issues with cats,
because I really don't thinknot, and not just cats, right?
No animal is really born evilor, or vengeful.
This is what we do as humans.
And that's same with children,right?
And how we develop us adulthuman beings.
(09:39):
It's the experiences we have inour life and is the same for
cats and other animals as well.
So I really think we really,when these things are happening,
we really need to look intosometimes even just very, very
small things, right?
For example, I know one of mycats gets very anxious when I
travel for work.
So I'm being very proactiveabout what we are doing.
(10:01):
So we have a lot of puzzle toysand all of these things that the
cats can, keep them company.
I have these cameras that givethem treats when I'm away so I
can like still interact withthem and so on.
So there are so many, especiallylike in the times we live now,
like all this technology andeverything, we have so many ways
to, to, actually keep our petshappy.
(10:22):
And so I really think we justneed to consider that the cat is
just telling us something.
For example, like you mentionedthat, Oh, it's too hard for me
to get to my litter box.
Not because Oh, I woke up todayand I think let's just pee
inside my owner's..
Dr. Sugerman (10:36):
Right.
Right.
I'm angry because my owner is onvacation.
So I'm just going to pee intheir clothes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, when you're gone, you hadactually mentioned that you have
a lot of cats.
Do you feel like cats are verysocial creatures?
Dr. Petra Cerna (10:49):
I think it really depends.
Some of my cats are really verysocial.
Dr. Sugerman (10:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (10:53):
So for some of my cats they really love people.
Like, I just came back fromvacation on Sunday, because my
brother was getting married, andI came home and they were
literally all four of them weresitting by the door and all want
to be pet when I came home andeverything.
So my cats and I have pedigreecats and I've bred most of them
(11:13):
or had them, most of them sincethey were little kittens.
So they of course just, beenaround me and they love being
around me and everything.
So I work a lot with our kittenswhen they are growing to make
sure they're very social, butnot every cat is.
And I think that's mainly withthe experiences they get from
life as well, because somekittens were born from a feral
(11:36):
mom and their mom was not usedto being around humans.
So then it's really hard forthem to learn being around
humans as well.
When they see their mom isafraid as well.
Dr. Sugerman (11:47):
Yeah.
Do you feel like that can changeover time?
Dr. Petra Cerna (11:50):
I think it can definitely change if we start
early, so it's very important todefinitely work with young
kittens because theirsocialization period, around
like the 6-8 weeks of age isvery, very important.
And so I think if you're veryproactive at that age, then it
can change.
(12:11):
Very likely some of these catswill never be like super social.
I want to be around humans allthe time.
And sometimes they want to bearound that one human, right?
That they trust and they, theylove and they are used to, and
then they come to us in theclinic, for example, and they've
never seen us and it's, it'sjust, they're very anxious and
they are very worried what'sgoing on.
Dr. Sugerman (12:32):
What do you think about with other cats?
Do you think they're very socialwith other cats?
Dr. Petra Cerna (12:36):
I think this is also very individual and very
not just kind of cat to a cat,like this cat will be social
with everybody.
I have one cat that, everybodyloves, she loves everybody.
But then I have two cats that,they tolerate each other, but I
never see them sleeping next toeach other or something like
that.
While I see three of my othercats constantly being playing
(12:59):
together or sleeping next toeach other, but then the two
other cats together but thenbetween the one and they just
don't they tolerate each other,but they definitely do not love
each other.
So I think this is veryindividual and it's not gonna be
same between all the cats in thehousehold so there is always
some hierarchy right anddifferent interactions and I
(13:20):
also think it's same withhumans, right?
If I will be put in a room of 10people, there will be some
people I'm going to like more.
Some people I'm going to likeless.
Dr. Sugerman (13:28):
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (13:28):
People you're not going to be able to stand.
And yeah, so I think it's samewith very similar to humans as
well.
And this is very hard definitelyto change because sometimes when
cats really develop someaversion towards each other, and
this could be like a pastexperience or it just could be
how the cats smell or how theyjust interact together.
(13:51):
And I think it's also prettymuch like breed related as well.
So some breeds definitely aremore social and are happier with
other cats.
Some cats are more dominant thanthe others.
I was just now judging at thecat show last weekend and there
was this beautiful Devon Rex.
She was a female neutered cat.
And, Devon Rex is our smallcats.
(14:12):
They're like..
Dr. Sugerman (14:12):
Yeah.
Tiny.
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:14):
Exactly.
So she was like a three kilocat.
And she actually lived in acattery of Maine Coons and the,
the..
Dr. Sugerman (14:23):
Who are much, much bigger.
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:24):
Exactly.
Who are like, 10, 10 kilos, evensometimes the big males.
And it was the caregiver who areshowing her.
She was like she's like the bossof the family.
She's like the smallest in thehousehold.
And she's the boss of all theMaine Coons.
And I was like, I'm notsurprised because the breed she
is, she's the more dominantbreed.
(14:45):
And compared to the Maine Coonswho really are often compared to
being like dog-like, and Ialways explain to people, that's
not a compliment for a cat.
Dr. Sugerman (14:53):
Yeah,
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:55):
But yeah.
So it's also depends a lot onthe breed you have.
Dr. Sugerman (14:59):
Yeah, You had mentioned about like your cats
sleeping together.
Do you feel like when they sleeptogether and they eat together,
does that mean that they likeeach other or does that mean
they more just tolerate eachother?
Dr. Petra Cerna (15:10):
I think the sleeping and I have some of
them, especially I have like momand daughter and they really
like sleep absolutely liketouching each other and so close
to each other and they're verycomfortable with that.
However, when it comes to food.
Food is very, very important andit's a key environmental
resource that we have for cats.
So I still, I do not feed mycats in the same place.
(15:31):
So they all get their own plateand they are all fed in the
kitchen.
But they don't have their bowlsnext to each other because I
think, sharing food is not nicefor the cat.
So we have different dry food.
We have different stationsthroughout the house.
And then when I feed them cannedfood, I have it in different
spots as well.
(15:52):
So I do not feed my four cats inthe same spot.
Dr. Sugerman (15:55):
Yeah.
So if they are like eating fromthe same bowl, it doesn't
necessarily mean that that'sbecause they like each other.
Really, they're just toleratingit for the moment.
Dr. Petra Cerna (16:03):
Exactly.
They tolerate it for the momentbecause they have no other
options.
I think if we gave them anopportunity to eat in different
spaces, they probably would.
The sleeping, I think it's adifferent story because, they
choose to sleep next to eachother.
Nobody's forcing them to dothat.
But I think that's us ascaregivers for the cats in multi
cat households.
I think the feeding is actuallyone of the most common triggers
(16:27):
for intercats tension, becausethat's a really important, like
key resource.
And the same thing with toilets,right?
So we have the key environmentalresources like food, water,
toilet, scratching areas, playareas, and like resting or sleep
areas as well.
And we really should beproviding options for these cats
(16:47):
to either be together.
So if all my cats want to sleepon the sofa together, they have
the option, but they also havethe option to sleep separately.
Dr. Sugerman (16:55):
With the toilets, you're talking about the litter
boxes.
How many litter boxes do yourecommend per cat?
Dr. Petra Cerna (17:01):
Yeah, so we always recommend kind of the
numbers of cats plus one, and Ithink it's really important that
people just don't consider thenumbers of the litter boxes, but
also where the litter boxes are,because I was dealing with a
consult where we had a cat, itwas urinating outside of the
litter box.
And it was, the owner was like,Oh my god, I have four litter
(17:22):
boxes for two cats.
I don't know what else to do.
And then they were all in thecorridor, in the same spot, and
it was very stressful for thecats to go to the litter box
when the other cat was in theother litter box just next to
it, for example.
It was also in a very busy area.
Nobody wants to pee on a mainstreet.
Dr. Sugerman (17:41):
Right.
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (17:42):
I wouldn't want to do that either.
So I think it's really importantthat we provide a very safe
space for the food, for thesleeping, and for the litter
boxes as well.
Dr. Sugerman (17:53):
Okay.
With the litter boxes too, doyou feel like they should have
different types of litter in thelitter boxes?
All the same types of litter?
Dr. Petra Cerna (18:00):
I think it depends on the preference for
the cat.
So I think if we are seeing anyissues with the cat trying to
urinate outside of the litterbox, we should definitely offer
more options.
I know it's not very popularhaving these like silicone based
litters.
A lot of cats actually don'tlike it.
It's very crunchy.
It's not nice to their paws.
I actually just tried touchingit myself and it wasn't very
(18:22):
nice.
So a lot of cats might not likethose but owners seem to really
like those.
I personally i'm not a huge fanbecause they don't clump and
like for four cats I have toreally replace it every two,
three days so it doesn't smelland everything.
But for a single cat household,a lot of owners or caregivers
will, will like those.
But I think it's important thatwe provide options if we believe
(18:46):
that the cat might not like thecurrent litter.
I have just one type of litterat home.
Everybody is used to it.
I am lucky I don't have anyurinating outside of the litter
issues, even with the multi cathousehold, but definitely
something to consider.
Also, one thing that's veryimportant is, it's really now
popular to start using thesescented litters.
(19:10):
And it's really not great forthese cats.
Cats have very sensitive senseof smell.
It's actually one of their mostdeveloped senses and it is very
important for them to feelcomfortable in those litter
boxes.
Plus, more and more cats aredeveloping lower airway disease
like asthma and these scentedlitters can cause issues with
that as well.
(19:30):
So I always recommend unscentedlitters.
Dr. Sugerman (19:34):
What do you think about these new litters that
change colors to be able to tellyou like if there's blood in it
or I don't even remember all thethings but like it'll change
colors for different things.
Dr. Petra Cerna (19:44):
Yeah, I think it's potentially useful for cats
that have lower urinary tractissues.
So we can earlier recognizebecause it's, I think hard,
especially in multi cathouseholds, for me, I have these
like little robots.
So it actually monitors howoften my cats pee and everything
and who comes into the litterbox and when.
But otherwise if I just hadregular litters, it would be
(20:06):
really hard for me to say like,how much is my cat peeing.
And is it small or large pile ofpee and so on and so on.
So I think this might be helpfulfor our patients or cats that
have some history of lowerurinary tract disease
potentially.
So owners can be more proactivewhen they see blood there.
Dr. Sugerman (20:24):
Okay, and what do you think about covered litter
boxes versus open litter boxesversus robot litter boxes?
Dr. Petra Cerna (20:30):
Yeah, I think that's all great questions
because I think, again, it comesdown to the cat's preference,
right?
So some cats are totally fine.
They prefer closed litter boxesbecause they feel safer in them.
On other hand, a lot of cats,especially older ones with like
degenerative joint disease, theymight struggle to get into big
(20:51):
closed litter box.
So they might want to have avery, low edge litter box for
them so it's easier for them toget into those.
And then the litter boxes, Iknow I've had them for probably
15 plus years, but I know Irecommended it to a friend of
mine who has two cats and shewas like, none of the cats would
ever go into it.
(21:12):
So I think it's again, very,very personal for those cats.
The one thing I absolutelydislike and it's starting to be
like now really popular arethese litter boxes that you
actually have to jump up and godown and then jump up again.
I understand that it doesn'tmake like as much mess.
And I, I have to vacuum fourtimes a week with all the hair
and the litter I have all overmy house to keep it clean
(21:34):
because I'm definitely a cleanfreak.
But it's something, I just feelit's so unnatural, especially
older cats with somecomorbidities, degenerative
joint disease, like about 80-90percent over the age of 10 of
these cats will have some degreeof degenerative joint disease.
So imagine someone build you, Idon't know how they call it now
(21:55):
in English, they run it atOlympics.
You have to jump..
Dr. Sugerman (21:58):
Oh, yeah the hurdles the hurdles.
Yeah.
Yeah
Dr. Petra Cerna (22:00):
Imagine someone built you a hurdle in front of
your bathroom and you had to gothrough it before you were able
to pee.
I think that's also something toreally consider for especially
older cats.
Dr. Sugerman (22:14):
Yeah, I think that they, I've heard a lot of people
using those because they havedogs and they don't want the
dogs getting into the litterboxes.
Because they can definitely getthrough the doors and
everything, but I feel like theydon't really get into the tops
of them.
Dr. Petra Cerna (22:27):
Yeah, so they actually have these now, like
you can actually buy microchipcat doors.
So I think building the litterbox into kind of like a, a
closet, where the cat can onlypass through or having a cat
door through there or smallerhole that the dog cannot get
through.
I probably think that would bean easier solution than building
all of this for the cats to, toget into.
(22:49):
And I think it's probably funfor younger cats sometimes if
they're okay with it, but forthe older cats, I just don't
think it's great.
Dr. Sugerman (22:56):
Yeah, so you gotta remember that young cat's going
to turn into an older cat, soYou might as well have those
things in place beforehand, beproactive about it, not, not
responding to it.
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:06):
Exactly.
Dr. Sugerman (23:07):
We have this thing in veterinary medicine we've
called the five pillars.
But what are the environmentalneeds of these cats?
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:14):
Yeah.
So I think, we always talk aboutthese five pillars when it comes
to us respecting cats and theirnatural behavior and everything.
So we've discussed the numberone that is the most important
and it was the providing thesafe place, right?
So we already discussed that alot.
We spoke about providing thoseenvironmental key resources like
food, water, toilets, and so on.
(23:36):
Then very important, and I thinkthis is something people really
underestimate.
So cats really are predatoryspecies, and they really love to
play and fulfill their kind ofpredatory behavioral.
And this doesn't mean that Ihave to go buy a live mouse and
let it..
Dr. Sugerman (23:51):
Yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:52):
Run in the house for my cats to play with
and everything.
But I think providing a lot oftoys and opportunities,
especially for younger cats toplay with.
And then we also try to focus onthe fourth pillar is providing
positive and consistent and alsopredictable human to cat social
(24:14):
interactions.
So cats do not like changes,right?
So suddenly, if they are used toone human and now there's a new
baby, for example, they don'twant to suddenly that the baby
runs to them and tries to liftthem when they were never used
to that before.
So we need to always try to bepredictable for the cats and not
just suddenly start doing thingsthe cats were not used to.
(24:38):
And the other, the last pillaris providing safe environment
that also respects theimportance of the cat senses,
especially the sense of smell.
That's what we already spokeabout, right?
Like using those scented littersor a lot of people are using
those diffusers or, I do not usemy, I only use perfume in a room
(25:01):
like where my cats are, I haveone room where my cats are not
allowed to, so I usually, when Iwant to put perfume on, I
usually do it in that room andso on, because like I said,
smell is one of the mostdeveloped senses in cats, so
they should be respectful ofthat as well.
Dr. Sugerman (25:17):
I do find so many cats that come in with asthma
attacks and when I start talkingto the pet parents about it,
finding out, that they haveplugins or these scented
candles, or using incense, orscentsy, those scentsy things
now.
Yeah, I find that they've donethat right before their cat had
an asthma attack, and that's howthey found out that their cat
had asthma.
Dr. Petra Cerna (25:38):
Yeah, exactly.
Or smokers, right?
So smoking environment, which Ithink it's less common in US
compared to Europe, for example.
So I feel like here, most almostnobody smokes inside.
But yeah, I..
Dr. Sugerman (25:52):
I do find a lot of people who smoke pot inside, and
I, so I, so I do find catshaving asthma attacks from that
as well.
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:00):
Yeah.
And I think that's probably abig concern too, because of
course that's toxic to cats aswell.
So we definitely, that's anotherconcern as well for a lot of
those, a lot of those cats.
Dr. Sugerman (26:11):
Yeah.
Do you have any other tips forparents so they can be the best
pet parents?
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:15):
Yeah.
I think, we spoke about the playas well that I mentioned and
those like scratching trees andjust, I think cats, when it
comes to scratching.
I think scratching might beanother issue people that do not
like to deal with.
So now I can give a long speechyet, actually, despite having a
scratching tree in every singleroom of my house and, providing
(26:39):
what we call, because some catshave preference for horizontal
scratching and some cats forvertical scratching.
So really providing differentoptions to the cats, but then it
seems that my cats are confusingour newest sofa from Ikea with..
Dr. Sugerman (26:53):
Oh, no.
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:54):
Is a natural behavior of a cat.
So we really are strictlyagainst declawing.
I am not a fan of caregiversputting those..
Dr. Sugerman (27:04):
The soft paws?
Dr. Petra Cerna (27:05):
Exactly the soft paws.
If you don't want your cat toscratch your furniture, I think
you should not get a cat becausethis is a natural cat
behavioral.
Absolutely natural, and that'swhat cats do.
They actually have scents intheir, in their paw pads.
So they have scented glandsthere.
So they actually also arereleasing some kind of scent
(27:28):
with that.
They are doing that same whenthey are rubbing with their
cheeks as well.
So that's also how they releasea kind of smell into, and then
how they mark their territory aswell.
So I think all of these arereally, really important.
And I think, we should provide alot of scratching opportunities,
and we should provide a lot ofplay opportunities as well.
(27:50):
We actually are because a lot ofpeople are often playing with
like lasers and stuff with theircats.
And we actually are these daysrecommending not to do that
because cats can never catchthat.
So it can cause a frustration inthose cats as well.
So we usually really like thoselike kind of feather toys or
something that we can play withthe cats and they can actually
(28:11):
catch it.
So they have, they get somereward afterwards.
One of my kittens, actually, sheloves to fetch.
So even, you know.
She literally, I never eventaught her.
Like I remember one time I wasin bed and I was like really
tired and she was a singlekitten and I just like really
wanted to sleep and she like waslike a little bit bothering me
(28:32):
and I just threw this ball and Ithought she was gonna like chase
and play with it.
And she literally she just ranand brought it back to me and
wanted to play again and I waslike oh my god.
And I, I'm the type of personwho I feel like cats teach us
and we shouldn't be teachingcats tricks and stuff, but yeah,
(28:53):
she definitely loves that andall my cats really love to play
with, with those feather toysand I have kind of activity
boards with treats as well.
So especially when I'm leaving,it gets completely full.
And when I come home from like aweekend or something, it's
always empty.
So it just gives them kind ofsome stimulation because I keep
(29:15):
my cats indoor only because welive by a main...
two main roads, actually.
I am a little bit worried forthem.
They have the catio, so theyhave access outside and they
love being there, butunfortunately they can't just
roam outside.
So I'm really trying to providesome environmental enrichment
for them where they can reallysatisfies those kind of
predatory needs.
Dr. Sugerman (29:35):
With the activity boards, where, where do you get
them from?
Do you just get them on Amazonor..
Dr. Petra Cerna (29:40):
Yeah, exactly.
Amazon or other, like Chewy orlike all of these companies.
I like, there is one, I thinkit's from Trixie.
It's like a very, because Itried throughout the years, like
multiple and sometimes ifthey're not sturdy enough, I've
had the cats just go and..
Dr. Sugerman (29:55):
Just it.
Dr. Petra Cerna (29:55):
Their paws and knock it all over.
But I have one that's like alittle labyrinth and it has four
different sessions.
So one of my cats doesn't reallyfigure out how to get it from
the plastic ball, but they arelike three other options where
she gets the treats from.
So I think that's also quiteimportant.
And I think probably one morething we didn't discuss that
(30:17):
much was just with theenvironmental needs and the key
resources, we also shouldn't bekeeping like food and water next
to the litter boxes.
So I actually have a litter boxand like I said, I have a big
house, so it's a, it's adifferent story, but I have a
litter box in one place andwater fountain in a different
space and their food bowls indifferent space as well.
(30:38):
Really just providing theseresources in different spaces.
Dr. Sugerman (30:43):
Are you okay with having food and water in the
same place?
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:46):
I prefer not to cause my cats also, we have
water fountains and they loveplaying with the water as well.
Dr. Sugerman (30:51):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:52):
yeah,
Dr. Sugerman (30:53):
I haven't had any cats who play with the water
yet.
So...
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:55):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I literally spent a fortune onfinding a water fountain that
the cats wouldn't run outbecause when there was the water
bowl next to it..
Like literally I, I, my, myplace was flooded every other
day because the cats just likelove to play with the water and
they were like spraying it outon each other and stuff paws and
(31:17):
just like playing with it.
So it took me like a really longtime, I think good six to eight
months to find one that's likeceramic.
And it's the water is runningall the time, but there is like
not a huge bowl.
So it's very, the bowl that isthere, it's like on the top and
it's pretty flat.
So they cannot do too much messwith it.
And now they're actually takingit off the markets.
(31:39):
I ordered five of them to justkeep them because that was like
a huge issue for us.
But I just even think the foodstill should be in a different
space and water.
And if you're very limited, it'sprobably one thing we can allow,
but I wouldn't be putting itlike if I had to decide if I
have to put, because I'm limitedwith space, if I have to put
water and food next to eachother, but it's far from the
(32:01):
litter box, then that's probablywhat I would choose.
But ideally, we want to justplace these separately,
especially we have more cats,right?
Because maybe the one cat isdrinking.
The other cat wants to come andeat.
So that's why also these shouldbe in different places.
Dr. Sugerman (32:14):
Nice.
Okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:15):
The only exceptions where we want to
hoard these resources for catsis when we have older sick cats,
for example, where they are notmoving so much.
So cats with like degenerativejoint disease or cognitive
dysfunctions, so dementia.
So we want to keep those keyresources in their very close
proximity.
So that's only one time where Ireally try keeping everything
(32:39):
close to each other and that'sfor the comfort for the cat.
Dr. Sugerman (32:42):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Can I ask real quick, what doyou do about your cats ruining
your Ikea sofa?
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:49):
Yeah.
I just live with it.
Dr. Sugerman (32:53):
I assudme that.
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:54):
I do not spend too much money on my sofas
because it is just, it is justwhat it is.
So yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (33:01):
Yeah, we have the same thing between like kids and
dogs and cats.
We're just, it is what it is.
Dr. Petra Cerna (33:06):
Yeah, I am lucky enough that I, nobody
like, urinates in an..
Uh, you know, and we don't evencall it now like inappropriate
places because it seems whenit's, it's not an inappropriate
place for the cat.
So that's what we are reallytrying to, again, the language
and the terminology when wedescribe cats and talk about cat
(33:26):
behavioral and behavioralproblems.
It's not..
At that moment for that cat, itseems appropriate.
So we just no longer call itlike inappropriate urination.
We usually try to say in anabnormal, place or something
like that or undesired by theowner for example, some
undesired urination, forexample.
(33:48):
But, yeah, because the caturinates there because it's
appropriate at that time forthat cat there for all the
reasons we mentioned before.
And yeah, I just unfortunatelylive with it.
So I do not spend too much moneymy sofas.
I actually really desperatelyneed a new one now, but I'm
going to replace it when thelittle kittens leave, because
(34:09):
also the kittens, when they aretiny, they want to try to jump
up.
Sometimes it doesn't work out.
So they just like hang there bytheir claws and then lift their
butts up there too.
So I'm just like, maybe we'llget one after the kittens leave.
Dr. Sugerman (34:23):
I know that they do have furniture that is pretty
hardy.
We got some, I think it'smicrofiber or something like
that, but we have a Great Danewho she runs literally in her
sleep constantly.
I say that that's how she getsmost of her exercise because
it's, she just runs all the timein her sleep, but she has such
big nails too.
It doesn't matter how short Ikeep them, right?
(34:43):
So she like constantly is likealmost ripping up the, the
furniture.
And the sofa we had before she'drip up constantly versus the one
we have now, I have one, onetiny little rip.
I feel like there are ways toget around this.
Dr. Petra Cerna (34:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I might now need to look intothat.
I just found out that there islike a special bed sheets that
do not like keep the hair on it.
Because always like I lovesummer and I love warm weather
and I love sun and I love all ofthis.
But the only thing I do not likeabout summer is that all my cats
are shedding.
Dr. Sugerman (35:15):
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Petra Cerna (35:18):
So I'm actually like considering getting like a
Devon Rex or a Burmese.
One of those that like do notshed as much because I have
ragdolls and British shorthairand that's literally, and I
bought them and everything.
But it's, it's just insane howmuch hair I have.
I vacuum like nonstop and still.
Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (35:37):
We actually have, so we have a Labrador and a
Great Dane and then the cats.
So the Great Dane doesn't shedat all, but the Labrador sheds
constantly.
She actually sheds more than thecats do, I think.
Dr. Petra Cerna (35:49):
Yeah, I know.
And it's also this like tiny,the hair that's sticks into
everything.
Yeah.
I actually love labradors and mybrother has a golden retriever.
So I think that's like probablyone of the few breeds I could
imagine if I had to get a dogsomeday for some reason.
Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (36:05):
Yeah, they're pretty good.
I think they're, she's, she'sreally good with the cats for
sure.
Yeah.
All right, Dr.
Černá, do you have anything elseyou want to share with us real
quick?
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:14):
I think that's probably, I think we've covered,
I think I could, probably wecould be discussing cat
behavioral for like hours andhours.
Dr. Sugerman (36:22):
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:22):
I think we probably covered most of the
important points.
Dr. Sugerman (36:26):
Perfect.
Thank you again, and everybodycan find Dr.
Černá at the crazycatvet.com.
If I remember correctly, right?
Yep.
Yep.
We'll put a link to it at thebottom of our show notes, and
we'll be talking to Dr.
Černá again, more about cats inthe future.
So thank you again.
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:41):
Thank you.
And I look forward to talkingabout cats in the future again.
Dr. Sugerman (36:45):
Perfect, thanks.
As we wrap up today'senlightening conversation with
Dr.
Černá, we've only just scratchedthe surface of understanding the
complex world of our felinefriends.
Remember that being the ultimatecat parent goes beyond the
basics.
It's about tuning into the fivepillars that fulfill their
lives.
Security, resources, play,social interaction, and smell.
(37:07):
We hope you're walking away withthese insights, not only to
deepen your bond with your cat,but also to improve their well
being.
A big thank you to Dr.
Černá, as always, the Crazy CatVet, for sharing her expertise
and passion with us.
Don't forget to show your catsome extra love today and pay
attention to those five criticalneeds.
Next, we will be revisitingpancreatitis just in time for
(37:28):
our Father's Day weekend whenall the barbecues come out.
Thank you again to Shawn Hybergfor the great work you do on the
editing of the podcast, and toKelly Dwyer for the great work
you do on the website.
Until then, keep your petshappy, healthy, and safe.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you in the next
episode.
Think your cat's content with just food, water,
and a cozy corner to nap in?
Think again.
It turns out our feline friendshave five fundamental needs,
known as the five pillars.
The safe place, ample resources,opportunities for play and
predator-like behavior, socialinteractions, and the use of
smell.
Today on our podcast, we'rediving into the fascinating
(00:22):
world of cat behavior with noneother than Dr.
Černá, affectionately known asthe Crazy Cat Vet.
We'll uncover why misbehavingmight just be your cat's way of
saying that one of theseessential needs is not being
met.
Join me, Dr.
Sugerman, on Vetsplanation, thepodcast that simplifies pet
health.
As we learn from Dr.
Černá how truly to understandour feline companions and
(00:44):
transform ourselves into theultimate cat parents.
Tune in and elevate your catcaregiving game.
All right, welcome back toVetsplanation everybody.
Thank you so much for returningto our show.
We actually have the Crazy CatVet on again today, Dr.
Petra Černá.
And we're going to be talkingabout cat behavior today, which
I'm sure lots of cat parents arereally excited to learn about.
(01:08):
How are you doing, Dr.
Černá?
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:09):
I am great.
So nice to be here again andactually talk about one of my
favorite topics, which is catbehavior.
Dr. Sugerman (01:16):
I feel like just cat, cat topics in general is
your favorite.
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:20):
Yes, for sure.
I definitely wouldn't be heretalking about dogs.
Dr. Sugerman (01:24):
Right.
In veterinary medicine, we talka lot about environmental
enrichment and likeenvironmental modifications, but
I feel like that's like more ofa response to a problem and not
really thinking about how we canset up these environmental needs
for cats before it becomes aproblem.
So how do you think that is adifferent thinking?
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:43):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
for example, I have beenbreeding cats for almost 20
years, actually.
Dr. Sugerman (01:51):
That's a long time.
Dr. Petra Cerna (01:52):
Exactly.
And it's impossible to breedcats with one cat.
So I have always had multi cathouseholds.
And the only time I have notbeen breeding cats was for about
five years of my life.
And it was through myinternships and residencies.
Dr. Sugerman (02:10):
I can see why.
Dr. Petra Cerna (02:11):
I had no time and no money to actually provide
a really good environment formulti cat household.
So I took a little break thereand just last year we had our
first litter after five years.
And I just have six kittens athome actually right now.
But I bought a four bedroomhouse for my cats.
Dr. Sugerman (02:33):
For just you and your cats if I remember
correctly, right?
It's like literally just for thecats, yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (02:37):
I don't need that much in my life.
So I have a big house.
We have two catios, one for theboy, and then the girls share
their own, like a huge catio aswell.
And when I was actually lookingfor my house, I was, I was like
with the HOAs well, I need to,before I signed my contract, I
was like, I need to make surethe HOA is going to allow that I
(02:58):
have a catio.
And I really just see like whenI enter a house, I'm like, Oh my
God, this is great for the cats.
This is not, but I alsounderstand that not everybody is
this crazy, right?
That's why I'm the Crazy CatVet..
Crazy cat lady.
Dr. Sugerman (03:13):
Yep.
Dr. Petra Cerna (03:14):
Because I think nobody is this crazy to go and
buy a house for their cats.
Dr. Sugerman (03:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially like a four bedroomhouse for the cats, right?
There's you could have maybe abedroom.
Dr. Petra Cerna (03:23):
Yeah.
Exactly.
No, my, my cats definitely haveplenty of space.
And even when I moved to UnitedStates, actually first time, the
only two things that were in myhouse, they're inflatable
mattress, cat tree, And the nicecat litter robot.
So they had way more furniturethan I had when I moved in.
(03:44):
But again, I really do notexpect people to spend fortune
and all their money and alltheir savings on their cats.
But I still think we can reallybe very proactive and really,
when we are looking at our houseand maybe even considering
getting a second cat or thirdcat into the household or even
(04:04):
sometimes making changes whenour cats age, right?
We spoke about some senior carein the talk last time.
So all of these areenvironmental modifications that
we can do.
And I promise they're not gonnacost you your life savings.
Dr. Sugerman (04:17):
Absolutely.
What do you think about tryingto be more proactive about it,
though, versus just trying torespond to the situations
instead?
Dr. Petra Cerna (04:24):
Yeah, I think being proactive is very, very
important.
So I think thinking veryproactively about what, what
cats are like in nature.
So we all know that cats areboth predators, but they also
prey in nature, right?
So they really want to go andhunt mice and birds and all of,
all of those little critters.
(04:46):
But also they really, are beingalso prey for some other larger
animals.
And so for example, if we havedogs in the house, we really
should make sure the cats have asafe place to hide.
For example, and this could belike above, ground levels.
So it's somewhere very safe forthe cats where the cat feels
(05:08):
safe and knows that no one elsecan get there.
So simply putting shelves on thewall, for example, provides a
lot of safety.
So I've had one client that.
Whose cat had behavioral issuesand was very anxious.
And I was like do you have likesafe places for, for the cat?
Because they had a toddler atthat time and they were like,
(05:28):
yeah, yeah.
We have six hiding boxes andthey were all on the floor.
Dr. Sugerman (05:32):
Where the toddler can get to.
Dr. Petra Cerna (05:34):
Exactly.
So the cat had absolutely nospace to get to where the
toddler couldn't, couldn't reachher.
That's always like just tryingto think where the cat would
feel safe, for example.
And most of these are actuallylike above, above the ground
level.
Or for example, on the wall, Ihave a full one wall where we
(05:55):
have like shelves that go fromthe bottom to the top.
And the two top ones are alwaysthe ones that are constantly
full.
Even though there's 20 of them,nobody lays on the intermediate
levels.
Everybody always lays on the toplevel.
So it's really thinkingproactively.
How I can make my cat feel safein my house.
Dr. Sugerman (06:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
We even have a cat that she willonly hide in the pantry.
That's, we have shelves andstuff up for them.
We definitely have high places,but she is one of the older
cats, she's 14.
So I think that getting up therehigher is much harder, but we've
definitely had to adapt to like,she wants to be in the pantry.
She gets to go in the pantry.
We have we've set up an area towhere she has a little hidey
(06:36):
hole that she can get into, andthen nobody else can see her
after that.
Dr. Petra Cerna (06:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
When just now, when one of mycats actually was pregnant, her
favorite place was really tohide in between all my, all my
cooking stuff.
Dr. Sugerman (06:50):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (06:52):
And I was like, this is like, you know, and I
have like a lot of space for herto hide..
Exactly.
And literally she would just begoing and and, and sleeping in
between my cooking appliances.
It's, like, oh my God.
Dr. Sugerman (07:05):
You're like I'll just have to re wash these every
time I use them.
Fine.
Dr. Petra Cerna (07:08):
Exactly.
Dr. Sugerman (07:10):
Even if we've tried to make sure that we've
been proactive about this, like,how do you think cats show
stress?
Do they readily show stresslike, like a lot of dogs do, or
do they hide it a lot?
Dr. Petra Cerna (07:20):
I think cats definitely hide things very,
very well.
So with stress, it couldactually be that they are just
hiding and they don't want to bearound us or in the environment
where they don't feel safe.
But cats definitely can be verydifficult to show us that they
are stressed.
They're not feeling comfortablewith something as well.
(07:41):
So I think really watching outthen just subtle changes like.
The cat just not being sofriendly towards the owner and
they don't want to cuddle asmuch as they used to, or really
just like keeping to themselves,all of these signs could be
potentially, we could see thatour cats are stressed.
Dr. Sugerman (07:58):
Do you see other behavioral things such as like
urinating outside the litterboxes as things like stress?
Dr. Petra Cerna (08:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we really need toget away from this
misconceptions of this is a meancat.
And he is peeing all over myhouse because he's mad, and he
wants me to be mad.
And this like vengeance or angrycats and all of that.
I really, really dislike thistype of like very negative
language with cats, because Ireally believe that cats are
(08:27):
very misunderstood creaturesvery often and cats never do
anything intentionally, right?
So they will not go and pee inour favorite spot on a sofa
because, you know, they areupset and they want us to be
upset or something.
Usually for them, it's reallyshowing us that something's
(08:47):
wrong with them and that we needto do something to help them
out.
Dr. Sugerman (08:52):
Yeah, I had one of my technicians had mentioned the
other day that her cat had peedand the laundry basket.
We talked more about it.
I learned that it's because thecat had to get past a baby gate
past where another cat was thatthey don't like in order to be
able to get to that litter box.
And talked about how it wasn'tbecause it was the cat was angry
at them or vengeful.
(09:13):
Like it was really just thatthey were afraid.
Dr. Petra Cerna (09:17):
Exactly.
And I think this is really,really important kind of
mentality when we think aboutbehavioral issues with cats,
because I really don't thinknot, and not just cats, right?
No animal is really born evilor, or vengeful.
This is what we do as humans.
And that's same with children,right?
And how we develop us adulthuman beings.
(09:39):
It's the experiences we have inour life and is the same for
cats and other animals as well.
So I really think we really,when these things are happening,
we really need to look intosometimes even just very, very
small things, right?
For example, I know one of mycats gets very anxious when I
travel for work.
So I'm being very proactiveabout what we are doing.
(10:01):
So we have a lot of puzzle toysand all of these things that the
cats can, keep them company.
I have these cameras that givethem treats when I'm away so I
can like still interact withthem and so on.
So there are so many, especiallylike in the times we live now,
like all this technology andeverything, we have so many ways
to, to, actually keep our petshappy.
(10:22):
And so I really think we justneed to consider that the cat is
just telling us something.
For example, like you mentionedthat, Oh, it's too hard for me
to get to my litter box.
Not because Oh, I woke up todayand I think let's just pee
inside my owner's..
Dr. Sugerman (10:36):
Right.
Right.
I'm angry because my owner is onvacation.
So I'm just going to pee intheir clothes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, when you're gone, you hadactually mentioned that you have
a lot of cats.
Do you feel like cats are verysocial creatures?
Dr. Petra Cerna (10:49):
I think it really depends.
Some of my cats are really verysocial.
Dr. Sugerman (10:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (10:53):
So for some of my cats they really love people.
Like, I just came back fromvacation on Sunday, because my
brother was getting married, andI came home and they were
literally all four of them weresitting by the door and all want
to be pet when I came home andeverything.
So my cats and I have pedigreecats and I've bred most of them
(11:13):
or had them, most of them sincethey were little kittens.
So they of course just, beenaround me and they love being
around me and everything.
So I work a lot with our kittenswhen they are growing to make
sure they're very social, butnot every cat is.
And I think that's mainly withthe experiences they get from
life as well, because somekittens were born from a feral
(11:36):
mom and their mom was not usedto being around humans.
So then it's really hard forthem to learn being around
humans as well.
When they see their mom isafraid as well.
Dr. Sugerman (11:47):
Yeah.
Do you feel like that can changeover time?
Dr. Petra Cerna (11:50):
I think it can definitely change if we start
early, so it's very important todefinitely work with young
kittens because theirsocialization period, around
like the 6-8 weeks of age isvery, very important.
And so I think if you're veryproactive at that age, then it
can change.
(12:11):
Very likely some of these catswill never be like super social.
I want to be around humans allthe time.
And sometimes they want to bearound that one human, right?
That they trust and they, theylove and they are used to, and
then they come to us in theclinic, for example, and they've
never seen us and it's, it'sjust, they're very anxious and
they are very worried what'sgoing on.
Dr. Sugerman (12:32):
What do you think about with other cats?
Do you think they're very socialwith other cats?
Dr. Petra Cerna (12:36):
I think this is also very individual and very
not just kind of cat to a cat,like this cat will be social
with everybody.
I have one cat that, everybodyloves, she loves everybody.
But then I have two cats that,they tolerate each other, but I
never see them sleeping next toeach other or something like
that.
While I see three of my othercats constantly being playing
(12:59):
together or sleeping next toeach other, but then the two
other cats together but thenbetween the one and they just
don't they tolerate each other,but they definitely do not love
each other.
So I think this is veryindividual and it's not gonna be
same between all the cats in thehousehold so there is always
some hierarchy right anddifferent interactions and I
(13:20):
also think it's same withhumans, right?
If I will be put in a room of 10people, there will be some
people I'm going to like more.
Some people I'm going to likeless.
Dr. Sugerman (13:28):
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (13:28):
People you're not going to be able to stand.
And yeah, so I think it's samewith very similar to humans as
well.
And this is very hard definitelyto change because sometimes when
cats really develop someaversion towards each other, and
this could be like a pastexperience or it just could be
how the cats smell or how theyjust interact together.
(13:51):
And I think it's also prettymuch like breed related as well.
So some breeds definitely aremore social and are happier with
other cats.
Some cats are more dominant thanthe others.
I was just now judging at thecat show last weekend and there
was this beautiful Devon Rex.
She was a female neutered cat.
And, Devon Rex is our smallcats.
(14:12):
They're like..
Dr. Sugerman (14:12):
Yeah.
Tiny.
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:14):
Exactly.
So she was like a three kilocat.
And she actually lived in acattery of Maine Coons and the,
the..
Dr. Sugerman (14:23):
Who are much, much bigger.
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:24):
Exactly.
Who are like, 10, 10 kilos, evensometimes the big males.
And it was the caregiver who areshowing her.
She was like she's like the bossof the family.
She's like the smallest in thehousehold.
And she's the boss of all theMaine Coons.
And I was like, I'm notsurprised because the breed she
is, she's the more dominantbreed.
(14:45):
And compared to the Maine Coonswho really are often compared to
being like dog-like, and Ialways explain to people, that's
not a compliment for a cat.
Dr. Sugerman (14:53):
Yeah,
Dr. Petra Cerna (14:55):
But yeah.
So it's also depends a lot onthe breed you have.
Dr. Sugerman (14:59):
Yeah, You had mentioned about like your cats
sleeping together.
Do you feel like when they sleeptogether and they eat together,
does that mean that they likeeach other or does that mean
they more just tolerate eachother?
Dr. Petra Cerna (15:10):
I think the sleeping and I have some of
them, especially I have like momand daughter and they really
like sleep absolutely liketouching each other and so close
to each other and they're verycomfortable with that.
However, when it comes to food.
Food is very, very important andit's a key environmental
resource that we have for cats.
So I still, I do not feed mycats in the same place.
(15:31):
So they all get their own plateand they are all fed in the
kitchen.
But they don't have their bowlsnext to each other because I
think, sharing food is not nicefor the cat.
So we have different dry food.
We have different stationsthroughout the house.
And then when I feed them cannedfood, I have it in different
spots as well.
(15:52):
So I do not feed my four cats inthe same spot.
Dr. Sugerman (15:55):
Yeah.
So if they are like eating fromthe same bowl, it doesn't
necessarily mean that that'sbecause they like each other.
Really, they're just toleratingit for the moment.
Dr. Petra Cerna (16:03):
Exactly.
They tolerate it for the momentbecause they have no other
options.
I think if we gave them anopportunity to eat in different
spaces, they probably would.
The sleeping, I think it's adifferent story because, they
choose to sleep next to eachother.
Nobody's forcing them to dothat.
But I think that's us ascaregivers for the cats in multi
cat households.
I think the feeding is actuallyone of the most common triggers
(16:27):
for intercats tension, becausethat's a really important, like
key resource.
And the same thing with toilets,right?
So we have the key environmentalresources like food, water,
toilet, scratching areas, playareas, and like resting or sleep
areas as well.
And we really should beproviding options for these cats
(16:47):
to either be together.
So if all my cats want to sleepon the sofa together, they have
the option, but they also havethe option to sleep separately.
Dr. Sugerman (16:55):
With the toilets, you're talking about the litter
boxes.
How many litter boxes do yourecommend per cat?
Dr. Petra Cerna (17:01):
Yeah, so we always recommend kind of the
numbers of cats plus one, and Ithink it's really important that
people just don't consider thenumbers of the litter boxes, but
also where the litter boxes are,because I was dealing with a
consult where we had a cat, itwas urinating outside of the
litter box.
And it was, the owner was like,Oh my god, I have four litter
(17:22):
boxes for two cats.
I don't know what else to do.
And then they were all in thecorridor, in the same spot, and
it was very stressful for thecats to go to the litter box
when the other cat was in theother litter box just next to
it, for example.
It was also in a very busy area.
Nobody wants to pee on a mainstreet.
Dr. Sugerman (17:41):
Right.
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (17:42):
I wouldn't want to do that either.
So I think it's really importantthat we provide a very safe
space for the food, for thesleeping, and for the litter
boxes as well.
Dr. Sugerman (17:53):
Okay.
With the litter boxes too, doyou feel like they should have
different types of litter in thelitter boxes?
All the same types of litter?
Dr. Petra Cerna (18:00):
I think it depends on the preference for
the cat.
So I think if we are seeing anyissues with the cat trying to
urinate outside of the litterbox, we should definitely offer
more options.
I know it's not very popularhaving these like silicone based
litters.
A lot of cats actually don'tlike it.
It's very crunchy.
It's not nice to their paws.
I actually just tried touchingit myself and it wasn't very
(18:22):
nice.
So a lot of cats might not likethose but owners seem to really
like those.
I personally i'm not a huge fanbecause they don't clump and
like for four cats I have toreally replace it every two,
three days so it doesn't smelland everything.
But for a single cat household,a lot of owners or caregivers
will, will like those.
But I think it's important thatwe provide options if we believe
(18:46):
that the cat might not like thecurrent litter.
I have just one type of litterat home.
Everybody is used to it.
I am lucky I don't have anyurinating outside of the litter
issues, even with the multi cathousehold, but definitely
something to consider.
Also, one thing that's veryimportant is, it's really now
popular to start using thesescented litters.
(19:10):
And it's really not great forthese cats.
Cats have very sensitive senseof smell.
It's actually one of their mostdeveloped senses and it is very
important for them to feelcomfortable in those litter
boxes.
Plus, more and more cats aredeveloping lower airway disease
like asthma and these scentedlitters can cause issues with
that as well.
(19:30):
So I always recommend unscentedlitters.
Dr. Sugerman (19:34):
What do you think about these new litters that
change colors to be able to tellyou like if there's blood in it
or I don't even remember all thethings but like it'll change
colors for different things.
Dr. Petra Cerna (19:44):
Yeah, I think it's potentially useful for cats
that have lower urinary tractissues.
So we can earlier recognizebecause it's, I think hard,
especially in multi cathouseholds, for me, I have these
like little robots.
So it actually monitors howoften my cats pee and everything
and who comes into the litterbox and when.
But otherwise if I just hadregular litters, it would be
(20:06):
really hard for me to say like,how much is my cat peeing.
And is it small or large pile ofpee and so on and so on.
So I think this might be helpfulfor our patients or cats that
have some history of lowerurinary tract disease
potentially.
So owners can be more proactivewhen they see blood there.
Dr. Sugerman (20:24):
Okay, and what do you think about covered litter
boxes versus open litter boxesversus robot litter boxes?
Dr. Petra Cerna (20:30):
Yeah, I think that's all great questions
because I think, again, it comesdown to the cat's preference,
right?
So some cats are totally fine.
They prefer closed litter boxesbecause they feel safer in them.
On other hand, a lot of cats,especially older ones with like
degenerative joint disease, theymight struggle to get into big
(20:51):
closed litter box.
So they might want to have avery, low edge litter box for
them so it's easier for them toget into those.
And then the litter boxes, Iknow I've had them for probably
15 plus years, but I know Irecommended it to a friend of
mine who has two cats and shewas like, none of the cats would
ever go into it.
(21:12):
So I think it's again, very,very personal for those cats.
The one thing I absolutelydislike and it's starting to be
like now really popular arethese litter boxes that you
actually have to jump up and godown and then jump up again.
I understand that it doesn'tmake like as much mess.
And I, I have to vacuum fourtimes a week with all the hair
and the litter I have all overmy house to keep it clean
(21:34):
because I'm definitely a cleanfreak.
But it's something, I just feelit's so unnatural, especially
older cats with somecomorbidities, degenerative
joint disease, like about 80-90percent over the age of 10 of
these cats will have some degreeof degenerative joint disease.
So imagine someone build you, Idon't know how they call it now
(21:55):
in English, they run it atOlympics.
You have to jump..
Dr. Sugerman (21:58):
Oh, yeah the hurdles the hurdles.
Yeah.
Yeah
Dr. Petra Cerna (22:00):
Imagine someone built you a hurdle in front of
your bathroom and you had to gothrough it before you were able
to pee.
I think that's also something toreally consider for especially
older cats.
Dr. Sugerman (22:14):
Yeah, I think that they, I've heard a lot of people
using those because they havedogs and they don't want the
dogs getting into the litterboxes.
Because they can definitely getthrough the doors and
everything, but I feel like theydon't really get into the tops
of them.
Dr. Petra Cerna (22:27):
Yeah, so they actually have these now, like
you can actually buy microchipcat doors.
So I think building the litterbox into kind of like a, a
closet, where the cat can onlypass through or having a cat
door through there or smallerhole that the dog cannot get
through.
I probably think that would bean easier solution than building
all of this for the cats to, toget into.
(22:49):
And I think it's probably funfor younger cats sometimes if
they're okay with it, but forthe older cats, I just don't
think it's great.
Dr. Sugerman (22:56):
Yeah, so you gotta remember that young cat's going
to turn into an older cat, soYou might as well have those
things in place beforehand, beproactive about it, not, not
responding to it.
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:06):
Exactly.
Dr. Sugerman (23:07):
We have this thing in veterinary medicine we've
called the five pillars.
But what are the environmentalneeds of these cats?
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:14):
Yeah.
So I think, we always talk aboutthese five pillars when it comes
to us respecting cats and theirnatural behavior and everything.
So we've discussed the numberone that is the most important
and it was the providing thesafe place, right?
So we already discussed that alot.
We spoke about providing thoseenvironmental key resources like
food, water, toilets, and so on.
(23:36):
Then very important, and I thinkthis is something people really
underestimate.
So cats really are predatoryspecies, and they really love to
play and fulfill their kind ofpredatory behavioral.
And this doesn't mean that Ihave to go buy a live mouse and
let it..
Dr. Sugerman (23:51):
Yeah.
Dr. Petra Cerna (23:52):
Run in the house for my cats to play with
and everything.
But I think providing a lot oftoys and opportunities,
especially for younger cats toplay with.
And then we also try to focus onthe fourth pillar is providing
positive and consistent and alsopredictable human to cat social
(24:14):
interactions.
So cats do not like changes,right?
So suddenly, if they are used toone human and now there's a new
baby, for example, they don'twant to suddenly that the baby
runs to them and tries to liftthem when they were never used
to that before.
So we need to always try to bepredictable for the cats and not
just suddenly start doing thingsthe cats were not used to.
(24:38):
And the other, the last pillaris providing safe environment
that also respects theimportance of the cat senses,
especially the sense of smell.
That's what we already spokeabout, right?
Like using those scented littersor a lot of people are using
those diffusers or, I do not usemy, I only use perfume in a room
(25:01):
like where my cats are, I haveone room where my cats are not
allowed to, so I usually, when Iwant to put perfume on, I
usually do it in that room andso on, because like I said,
smell is one of the mostdeveloped senses in cats, so
they should be respectful ofthat as well.
Dr. Sugerman (25:17):
I do find so many cats that come in with asthma
attacks and when I start talkingto the pet parents about it,
finding out, that they haveplugins or these scented
candles, or using incense, orscentsy, those scentsy things
now.
Yeah, I find that they've donethat right before their cat had
an asthma attack, and that's howthey found out that their cat
had asthma.
Dr. Petra Cerna (25:38):
Yeah, exactly.
Or smokers, right?
So smoking environment, which Ithink it's less common in US
compared to Europe, for example.
So I feel like here, most almostnobody smokes inside.
But yeah, I..
Dr. Sugerman (25:52):
I do find a lot of people who smoke pot inside, and
I, so I, so I do find catshaving asthma attacks from that
as well.
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:00):
Yeah.
And I think that's probably abig concern too, because of
course that's toxic to cats aswell.
So we definitely, that's anotherconcern as well for a lot of
those, a lot of those cats.
Dr. Sugerman (26:11):
Yeah.
Do you have any other tips forparents so they can be the best
pet parents?
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:15):
Yeah.
I think, we spoke about the playas well that I mentioned and
those like scratching trees andjust, I think cats, when it
comes to scratching.
I think scratching might beanother issue people that do not
like to deal with.
So now I can give a long speechyet, actually, despite having a
scratching tree in every singleroom of my house and, providing
(26:39):
what we call, because some catshave preference for horizontal
scratching and some cats forvertical scratching.
So really providing differentoptions to the cats, but then it
seems that my cats are confusingour newest sofa from Ikea with..
Dr. Sugerman (26:53):
Oh, no.
Dr. Petra Cerna (26:54):
Is a natural behavior of a cat.
So we really are strictlyagainst declawing.
I am not a fan of caregiversputting those..
Dr. Sugerman (27:04):
The soft paws?
Dr. Petra Cerna (27:05):
Exactly the soft paws.
If you don't want your cat toscratch your furniture, I think
you should not get a cat becausethis is a natural cat
behavioral.
Absolutely natural, and that'swhat cats do.
They actually have scents intheir, in their paw pads.
So they have scented glandsthere.
So they actually also arereleasing some kind of scent
(27:28):
with that.
They are doing that same whenthey are rubbing with their
cheeks as well.
So that's also how they releasea kind of smell into, and then
how they mark their territory aswell.
So I think all of these arereally, really important.
And I think, we should provide alot of scratching opportunities,
and we should provide a lot ofplay opportunities as well.
(27:50):
We actually are because a lot ofpeople are often playing with
like lasers and stuff with theircats.
And we actually are these daysrecommending not to do that
because cats can never catchthat.
So it can cause a frustration inthose cats as well.
So we usually really like thoselike kind of feather toys or
something that we can play withthe cats and they can actually
(28:11):
catch it.
So they have, they get somereward afterwards.
One of my kittens, actually, sheloves to fetch.
So even, you know.
She literally, I never eventaught her.
Like I remember one time I wasin bed and I was like really
tired and she was a singlekitten and I just like really
wanted to sleep and she like waslike a little bit bothering me
(28:32):
and I just threw this ball and Ithought she was gonna like chase
and play with it.
And she literally she just ranand brought it back to me and
wanted to play again and I waslike oh my god.
And I, I'm the type of personwho I feel like cats teach us
and we shouldn't be teachingcats tricks and stuff, but yeah,
(28:53):
she definitely loves that andall my cats really love to play
with, with those feather toysand I have kind of activity
boards with treats as well.
So especially when I'm leaving,it gets completely full.
And when I come home from like aweekend or something, it's
always empty.
So it just gives them kind ofsome stimulation because I keep
(29:15):
my cats indoor only because welive by a main...
two main roads, actually.
I am a little bit worried forthem.
They have the catio, so theyhave access outside and they
love being there, butunfortunately they can't just
roam outside.
So I'm really trying to providesome environmental enrichment
for them where they can reallysatisfies those kind of
predatory needs.
Dr. Sugerman (29:35):
With the activity boards, where, where do you get
them from?
Do you just get them on Amazonor..
Dr. Petra Cerna (29:40):
Yeah, exactly.
Amazon or other, like Chewy orlike all of these companies.
I like, there is one, I thinkit's from Trixie.
It's like a very, because Itried throughout the years, like
multiple and sometimes ifthey're not sturdy enough, I've
had the cats just go and..
Dr. Sugerman (29:55):
Just it.
Dr. Petra Cerna (29:55):
Their paws and knock it all over.
But I have one that's like alittle labyrinth and it has four
different sessions.
So one of my cats doesn't reallyfigure out how to get it from
the plastic ball, but they arelike three other options where
she gets the treats from.
So I think that's also quiteimportant.
And I think probably one morething we didn't discuss that
(30:17):
much was just with theenvironmental needs and the key
resources, we also shouldn't bekeeping like food and water next
to the litter boxes.
So I actually have a litter boxand like I said, I have a big
house, so it's a, it's adifferent story, but I have a
litter box in one place andwater fountain in a different
space and their food bowls indifferent space as well.
(30:38):
Really just providing theseresources in different spaces.
Dr. Sugerman (30:43):
Are you okay with having food and water in the
same place?
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:46):
I prefer not to cause my cats also, we have
water fountains and they loveplaying with the water as well.
Dr. Sugerman (30:51):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:52):
yeah,
Dr. Sugerman (30:53):
I haven't had any cats who play with the water
yet.
So...
Dr. Petra Cerna (30:55):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I literally spent a fortune onfinding a water fountain that
the cats wouldn't run outbecause when there was the water
bowl next to it..
Like literally I, I, my, myplace was flooded every other
day because the cats just likelove to play with the water and
they were like spraying it outon each other and stuff paws and
(31:17):
just like playing with it.
So it took me like a really longtime, I think good six to eight
months to find one that's likeceramic.
And it's the water is runningall the time, but there is like
not a huge bowl.
So it's very, the bowl that isthere, it's like on the top and
it's pretty flat.
So they cannot do too much messwith it.
And now they're actually takingit off the markets.
(31:39):
I ordered five of them to justkeep them because that was like
a huge issue for us.
But I just even think the foodstill should be in a different
space and water.
And if you're very limited, it'sprobably one thing we can allow,
but I wouldn't be putting itlike if I had to decide if I
have to put, because I'm limitedwith space, if I have to put
water and food next to eachother, but it's far from the
(32:01):
litter box, then that's probablywhat I would choose.
But ideally, we want to justplace these separately,
especially we have more cats,right?
Because maybe the one cat isdrinking.
The other cat wants to come andeat.
So that's why also these shouldbe in different places.
Dr. Sugerman (32:14):
Nice.
Okay.
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:15):
The only exceptions where we want to
hoard these resources for catsis when we have older sick cats,
for example, where they are notmoving so much.
So cats with like degenerativejoint disease or cognitive
dysfunctions, so dementia.
So we want to keep those keyresources in their very close
proximity.
So that's only one time where Ireally try keeping everything
(32:39):
close to each other and that'sfor the comfort for the cat.
Dr. Sugerman (32:42):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Can I ask real quick, what doyou do about your cats ruining
your Ikea sofa?
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:49):
Yeah.
I just live with it.
Dr. Sugerman (32:53):
I assudme that.
Dr. Petra Cerna (32:54):
I do not spend too much money on my sofas
because it is just, it is justwhat it is.
So yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (33:01):
Yeah, we have the same thing between like kids and
dogs and cats.
We're just, it is what it is.
Dr. Petra Cerna (33:06):
Yeah, I am lucky enough that I, nobody
like, urinates in an..
Uh, you know, and we don't evencall it now like inappropriate
places because it seems whenit's, it's not an inappropriate
place for the cat.
So that's what we are reallytrying to, again, the language
and the terminology when wedescribe cats and talk about cat
(33:26):
behavioral and behavioralproblems.
It's not..
At that moment for that cat, itseems appropriate.
So we just no longer call itlike inappropriate urination.
We usually try to say in anabnormal, place or something
like that or undesired by theowner for example, some
undesired urination, forexample.
(33:48):
But, yeah, because the caturinates there because it's
appropriate at that time forthat cat there for all the
reasons we mentioned before.
And yeah, I just unfortunatelylive with it.
So I do not spend too much moneymy sofas.
I actually really desperatelyneed a new one now, but I'm
going to replace it when thelittle kittens leave, because
(34:09):
also the kittens, when they aretiny, they want to try to jump
up.
Sometimes it doesn't work out.
So they just like hang there bytheir claws and then lift their
butts up there too.
So I'm just like, maybe we'llget one after the kittens leave.
Dr. Sugerman (34:23):
I know that they do have furniture that is pretty
hardy.
We got some, I think it'smicrofiber or something like
that, but we have a Great Danewho she runs literally in her
sleep constantly.
I say that that's how she getsmost of her exercise because
it's, she just runs all the timein her sleep, but she has such
big nails too.
It doesn't matter how short Ikeep them, right?
(34:43):
So she like constantly is likealmost ripping up the, the
furniture.
And the sofa we had before she'drip up constantly versus the one
we have now, I have one, onetiny little rip.
I feel like there are ways toget around this.
Dr. Petra Cerna (34:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I might now need to look intothat.
I just found out that there islike a special bed sheets that
do not like keep the hair on it.
Because always like I lovesummer and I love warm weather
and I love sun and I love all ofthis.
But the only thing I do not likeabout summer is that all my cats
are shedding.
Dr. Sugerman (35:15):
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Petra Cerna (35:18):
So I'm actually like considering getting like a
Devon Rex or a Burmese.
One of those that like do notshed as much because I have
ragdolls and British shorthairand that's literally, and I
bought them and everything.
But it's, it's just insane howmuch hair I have.
I vacuum like nonstop and still.
Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (35:37):
We actually have, so we have a Labrador and a
Great Dane and then the cats.
So the Great Dane doesn't shedat all, but the Labrador sheds
constantly.
She actually sheds more than thecats do, I think.
Dr. Petra Cerna (35:49):
Yeah, I know.
And it's also this like tiny,the hair that's sticks into
everything.
Yeah.
I actually love labradors and mybrother has a golden retriever.
So I think that's like probablyone of the few breeds I could
imagine if I had to get a dogsomeday for some reason.
Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman (36:05):
Yeah, they're pretty good.
I think they're, she's, she'sreally good with the cats for
sure.
Yeah.
All right, Dr.
Černá, do you have anything elseyou want to share with us real
quick?
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:14):
I think that's probably, I think we've covered,
I think I could, probably wecould be discussing cat
behavioral for like hours andhours.
Dr. Sugerman (36:22):
Right.
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:22):
I think we probably covered most of the
important points.
Dr. Sugerman (36:26):
Perfect.
Thank you again, and everybodycan find Dr.
Černá at the crazycatvet.com.
If I remember correctly, right?
Yep.
Yep.
We'll put a link to it at thebottom of our show notes, and
we'll be talking to Dr.
Černá again, more about cats inthe future.
So thank you again.
Dr. Petra Cerna (36:41):
Thank you.
And I look forward to talkingabout cats in the future again.
Dr. Sugerman (36:45):
Perfect, thanks.
As we wrap up today'senlightening conversation with
Dr.
Černá, we've only just scratchedthe surface of understanding the
complex world of our felinefriends.
Remember that being the ultimatecat parent goes beyond the
basics.
It's about tuning into the fivepillars that fulfill their
lives.
Security, resources, play,social interaction, and smell.
(37:07):
We hope you're walking away withthese insights, not only to
deepen your bond with your cat,but also to improve their well
being.
A big thank you to Dr.
Černá, as always, the Crazy CatVet, for sharing her expertise
and passion with us.
Don't forget to show your catsome extra love today and pay
attention to those five criticalneeds.
Next, we will be revisitingpancreatitis just in time for
(37:28):
our Father's Day weekend whenall the barbecues come out.
Thank you again to Shawn Hybergfor the great work you do on the
editing of the podcast, and toKelly Dwyer for the great work
you do on the website.
Until then, keep your petshappy, healthy, and safe.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you in the next
episode.
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