How a Tortured Artist Healed From Depression & Drugs: Jeff's Emotional & Beautiful Life Story

This podcast interview highlights the life of an artist who struggled with depression and addiction but found solace and purpose in his artwork.Influenced by his father's mental decline and historical events like the Bacon's Rebellion, Jeff Musser discusses the creation and meaning behind his art. The story also highlights his early love for drawing, experiences growing up as a diverse and lonely only child, and the impact of witnessing racial dynamics. He speaks about overcoming hardships, the importance of gratitude, and his upcoming art show titled 'Heavy,' inspired by his father's condition and life's challenges.

01:13 A Memorable School Event

07:10 Childhood and Social Challenges

16:58 High School Experiences

22:54 Struggles and Growth in Adulthood

28:32 Battling Depression and Substance Abuse

31:24 Facing the Consequences of a DUI

32:39 Family Revelations and Addiction

32:49 Connecting with My Father

34:31 The Path to Recovery

39:17 Dealing with Depression

45:53 Coping with My Father's Decline

54:02 Finding Gratitude and Purpose

#survivorstory

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We didn't exist before 1681. That meaning, OK, It feels like
there's some dark behind it. Skin color, race, class, a lot
of it just seems normal, like it's always existed, but in
America that's not the case. I did all the normal things that
that kids do, what I was always drawing.
It became one of the things thatI just loved above anything else

(00:22):
for seeing this hero when I was younger. 20 plus years later I'm
helping to restore it. That was one of the things that
that my dad gave to me was the depression.
And I still have days where I feel terrible when the
depression isn't kicking my ass.But I try to fight through it
anyway of just saying thank you.If you don't find a way to have

(00:45):
fun and be generous when you don't have money, you're not
going to be able to do it when you do have money.
The whole reason that I, I am having this art show is from the
reality of my dad's mental condition.
Just watching the this, this wonderful man that I've loved so
much. Just slowly.

(01:12):
Here's a good story. So I was born and raised here
and I went to middle school, etcetera.
So KSFM one O 2 was doing a promotion back in 1991 when
Marcus Allen was still a DJ there.
And I don't remember exactly what they were promoting, but he
came out and he says Suttle middle school, please welcome

(01:34):
Color me bad. And they were like I want to sex
you up was like the number one song.
The auditorium went insane. And then once it finally calmed
down, he said, oh, I'm just kidding.
Color me bats. Not here, but we do have a very
funny comedian. Please welcome newcomer Jamie
Foxx. So Jamie Foxx.

(01:55):
Comes out, but it's it's not theJamie Foxx.
We all know him like he wasn't even on a living color yet and
the whole auditorium was like. Did he hit or?
Did he? Did he No.
Like he could have had the best material.
No one was responding. Yeah, he got some chuckles every
now and then, but everyone was just so deflated.

(02:15):
Yeah, he he could not say anything.
And then a couple minutes, not acouple minutes.
But then later on that year, that's when he got signed to a
living color and he started to really shine and blossom.
And everyone's like, Oh yeah, heis funny.
Yeah. But I'm.
I'm meeting with with Mark on Wednesday at the gallery to do a

(02:36):
do a Good Morning segment. He's a good dude and I'm going
to tell him that story. Yes.
Because I don't know if he remembers, but I do He's.
Done a lot of live TV. He might not.
And someday I'm going to tell Jamie Foxx that story as well.
Yeah, I don't know how, but. We'll talk about your art tour a
little bit, but I want to hear about your art.
So I I looked at your stuff. Obviously when I found out I

(02:58):
love it, dude, I connect with it.
One thing that's like, for example, we didn't exist before
1681. That meaning OK the person view
and it interprets the art right but it feels like there's some
dark behind it right there is isthat a reflection of something
internal external. Where did that painting come
from? The.
Painting comes from a particularmoment in American history, late

(03:21):
in the 17th century, right around 1681.
And when we think about skin color, race, Class, A lot of it
just seems sort of fixed and normal, like it's always
existed. But in America, that's not the
case. So 1681 was the first time that

(03:45):
the words free white man and other European people was put
into law. That's the first time that the
classification of white existed.Because prior to that, Europeans
certainly existed, but they werenot a united bunch.
And anyone that is studying any European history knows that

(04:07):
Europeans were decimating themselves for centuries long
before they expanded out with the rest of the world.
So that is a reflection of or that title comes from that
particular event. And the reason that it was
brought into law and made as it is is because prior to that

(04:30):
there were little mini rebellions that happened in the
colonies before America was actually America.
Oftentimes free Europeans, indentured Europeans, free
Africans and enslaved Africans would get together and they'd
have rebellions because they knew that they were getting the
raw end of the deal. That all much like current

(04:51):
economic systems today, very small group of people, the top
hold all the power and at that time it was the land, it was
cattle, it was resources, it wasa flow of commerce from England
to the colony. So.
Trade routes as well. Trade routes, yeah, OK.
Very small group of English people were the only people that

(05:13):
were allowed to have land titles, guns, cattle at that
time. So they, they realize it like
we're getting the raw end of this deal.
So that there was a thing calledthe Bacon's Rebellion in roughly
16761678. Scholars aren't 100% sure about
it, but it did happen. And all those groups that were

(05:34):
living together, that we're having families that were having
normal lives, got together and almost through these overthrew
the establishment to the point where the magistrate wrote back
to the governors in England saysif we don't come up with a
divine and conquer strategy, we will not survive another one of
these. So they came up with this

(05:56):
classification of a new person. So even though it doesn't really
seem like it has any effect or any real world bearing because
it's brand new, like no one thought of themselves that way.
But now you can own land, you can buy guns, you can have
cattle, you can pass that property and all those titles on

(06:20):
to your offsprings if they are other quote free white people
and or Europeans. OK, so if you don't do any of
those things and you keep these close knit people that are of
African origin, you're going to lose out.
So that composition there is a distinct V shaped the wedge

(06:41):
composition, the classic sort ofdivide and conquer wedge and all
the things that are coming up from the top of that is it's a
hydra. It's a mythical beast that if
you chop one head off another one grows in its place.
And it's it's, it's devouring people in the composition, and

(07:03):
the people are also devouring themselves.
And much like you described. Much like I described do.
You think art found you? I possibly I did all the normal
things that that kids do. I played video games.
I loved baseball, I loved Transformers and playing outside

(07:23):
with my friends. But I was always drawing because
I part of that was it was low cost.
My parents didn't have a lot, but I also am an only child.
So when both of my parents were working, I was done with my
homework. I needed something to do and I
just love to draw and then it became one of the things that I
just loved above anything else were.

(07:45):
You good at it right away or didyou have to?
Work well, good at it right away, but still took me a couple
years to develop my skills. But by the time I was in high
school, I was ahead of just about everyone else my age and
some people older to the point where a teacher took me out of
beginning art class because you saw what I was drawing.

(08:08):
And she made me stay. And she says, did you did this?
And I said, yeah, OK, do this again, but I want to watch you
because she didn't believe me. And there was your simple just
comic book characters but very realistic drawings of Wolverine
and Spider Man. With shading and with.
Shading and and like correct anatomy somehow.

(08:28):
And she said, OK, all right, go to the principal and tell them
you're going to change your schedule because you're going to
be in my other art class starting Mondays.
So they rearranged my whole schedule.
And then I was like 13. All of a sudden I'm in a class
with a bunch of seniors. And I was like, who?

(08:49):
Why is he? Why is he in here?
Why is this? Why is there a child in this
classroom? But then I just, I took off from
there. But I knew probably early on
that being an artist, in whatever form was going to be,
was my life's calling. I like that dude.
Do you think only child? That's always interesting to me

(09:12):
because I've never met an only child that wishes they were like
that They didn't have. I'm messing that up.
Most only children I talked to wish they had a sibling.
Is that something you relate? To when I was younger, I did,
but then I had a great peer group and because I spent so
much time by myself, I just grewaccustomed to it.

(09:36):
So I that's another thing that artists, people that are really
serious, unless you're part of aband or a collaborative dance
group or a collaborative art team, you have to get used with
a lot, used to a lot of alone time because it's going to take
a lot of alone time, a lot of failures, like quote, UN quote

(09:56):
failures to find what your voiceis going to be and also to just
hone your craft. You have to put in a lot of
hours. And I think the best ones will
be alone because you, you can't bullshit yourself when you're
alone. You, you know, almost
immediately when something's working, when it's not.
And you can get opinions from other people that say, Oh, this

(10:18):
is great. But you go home at the end of
the night, look yourself in the mirror and you and you realize
like that painting's not, that'snot where it should be.
Like I know I could push it a little bit more.
That makes sense then why you'd want to be alone.
Yeah. What was how was your social
life growing up like? What was your personality like?
Dude were friends easy to come by?
What was? School like for you?

(10:40):
I had a lot of really diverse friends.
Yeah, we're very diverse here. That makes sense.
Yeah, like Sacramento's a reallygood melting pot, a very diverse
area. I made friends quite easily, but
also there were moments where I felt really alone and and

(11:02):
isolated and ostracized for someof the friendships that I did
have. What do you mean?
Well, in the 80s and 90s, Sacramento, like much much of
the country, had a busing program.
So kids from, you know, economically depressed areas,
usually black, black, brown, Latino that would come to the

(11:24):
more affluent suburbs for school.
So once you anytime you get boysfrom any economic strata or
group, they're going to fight. It's just just how boys are.
But once the dust settled and the fights were over, a lot of
us realized we'd have a lot in common, like, oh, you like

(11:45):
Transformers, you like GI Joe, you like basketball, you like
baseball, you like this comic book.
So I made a lot of diverse friends, but a lot of my friends
that I grew up in the neighborhood where my parents
still live, which is called River Park.
Ohio, OK. They sort of let me know that

(12:06):
having friendships with the black and brown kids came at a
cost because I stopped being invited to sleepovers.
Invites to go bike riding aroundthe neighborhood to slowly came
to a trickle. Is that because you were usually
with black and black and brown kids or just because they knew?

(12:27):
You because because I, I didn't like self segregate when we were
at school like I would, I would play with this group.
I play this group. I'd study with this group, I'd
study with that group and a lot of my younger friends from the
River Park neighborhood just didn't.
They just didn't vibe with that.So they let me know that, you

(12:50):
know, this isn't cool. And one particular, one
particular moment, I think I wasprobably 11 and we're all
getting picked for basketball and it's slowly getting smaller,
the pick line. And then like I'm the last
person to be picked and I wasn'tpicked.

(13:13):
And I'm thinking like, why? Like Aaron's jump shot is
garbage. Like I can dribble.
I've got a good, I've got a goodfade away.
I'm I'm blankie, but I'm quick. Like Aaron's Aaron's like
Aaron's dribbling with two hands.
What are you picking Aaron over me for?
And then I heard someone say, what about Jeff?
And then he said, well, Jeff cango play with the insert most

(13:35):
volatile word in the English language starts with an N.
And I didn't know what that wordmeant.
I just knew how it made me feel to just not be chosen.
And I lost it. I, I ran over this tree and I'm
just sobbing like the full tearsand snot bubbles.
And my friend Linnell comes overand he says, Hey, what's going

(13:56):
on with you? And I'm like this and more and
more did did ping me. And it's like, he's like, all
right. I'm like, well, why don't you
come play with us? I'm like, oh, it's fine.
I'm like, but why don't they want to play with me?
He's like, I don't know. And he said, man, don't worry
about those crackers. And I was, I'm not confused

(14:19):
because I didn't know what crackers meant.
Like, why are we talking about food?
And he said, what are you talking about?
Like you just like you call us crackers.
He said, I don't know. That's just what my grandfather
calls white people. Doesn't like, like, but they're
so delicious. Like I like crackers too.
Like a little salty with some cheese on it.
And, and we just go back and forth with this food confusion
and I said, do you want to play with us or not?

(14:40):
And I was like, all right, cool.And then and then everything is
like shaking a natural sketch each day.
And then it was over. But I never forgot that moment
and it stayed with me. And then I start and then it's
like a part of my consciousness was open and I started to notice
things and I noticed how teachers would treat me because

(15:04):
of my relationships. And I noticed how they would
treat my black and brown friendsversus the way they treated me.
And then I started to just notice it and that I would see
it in the world and see it in society.
And then and it's just started to expand as I got older and
then it started to make its way into my work roughly 10 years

(15:26):
ago. And.
Six. What do you mean?
Well, just thinking about my skin color as it relates to the
to the world and looking at the history of it and how it's
changed and how it's morphed dueto the economic needs of the
country and the way that that race is just wasn't just
sprinkled everywhere into the water supply.

(15:50):
And just thinking like, OK, why?Like I should be doing something
about this. And they're doing some Excel
exploration, historical exploration, like really digging
down into how my life and my work and how I relate to the
world, how I move and how I function, and making art about

(16:11):
it in the hopes that having these types of discussions won't
be as difficult and volatile if art was not a component.
Because art is one of those things that can it can we get
through all the the layers of nonsense that we put around our
ourselves to protect ourselves from whatever.

(16:32):
That's why a song hit you in a certain way.
That's why certain books just cut through all that nonsense
and just get you right in the solar plexus.
And art is one of those things that it can.
So I thought, well, I should, I should do some exploration and
take all the things that I've been working on and trained on
it and honing and crafting and put it all together.

(16:55):
That's cool. I like the intention behind
that. Yeah.
How was high school? I think.
I think it was I. Didn't like it either.
Very. Similar to a lot of what people
go through in high school with serious growing pains, feeling
like you're weird and awkward and you know, being really
really short until you're about 18.

(17:17):
It's not funny. Like I'm still not very tall,
especially compared to Someone Like You, but being 5/2 when
you're 18 and then going througha spurt and all of a sudden
you're 1920 and you're the height you are now was was
rough. Yeah, Did you get picked on?

(17:37):
Not really. That's good.
Like everyone, once people learnthat you will fight back, they
tend to not mess with you, especially if you, especially if
they don't expect you to be scrappy and you are, then you're
like, OK, yeah, Jeff is small, but like, he he'll put a sock.
I mean, he'll put a bar of soap and a sock and and and finding

(18:00):
the locker room. OK.
Not that that may have happened,but I'm just saying as an
example. OK, where do you think that came
from? Just the need to protect
yourself because you were small or was there anger in there?
There was probably some anger because I was small because I I
did get a little bit of bullying, but I also think it's
just raging testosterone hormones when you're a teenager.

(18:23):
That's like something about it'sbeing a young man coming into
your own, not really knowing where you're, where you're
fitting in. And there's there's unless
you've been doing self reflective breath work since you
were a child and having parents that teach you to manage your
emotions and take take a breath like you're just, you just need

(18:45):
an outlet for it. And unfortunately, sometimes
that's violence. Were you as tall as you are now
in the young age? I was always taller, but not
now. So I graduated high school at
like 6263 and I didn't stop growing until 25.
Just kind of a trip. God damn it.
Yeah, it it definitely kept me out of the majority of being

(19:09):
bullied because people are just like, I don't know if he's tough
or not. And I wasn't, I wasn't.
And then I got in a lot of fights, but I was not a tough
guy. I didn't like it.
I didn't like the talking and the yelling before.
Yeah, no. Part of the aggression, you
know, the intimidating stuff, I'm out of it.
But the size kept me out of a lot of bullying.
But then it was the small dudes that would give me all the

(19:30):
trouble, which everybody told methat was going to happen.
But especially when you get in your 20s and now you're out in
bars with alcohol and stuff. The only time I ever had a
problem was the, you know, quotesmaller guys and I don't know
what that. Was there was a friend of mine
in when I lived in Chicago that was on the shorter side, But

(19:52):
man, he'd he'd just like, what are you doing?
Like just intentionally startingshit with with really, really
tall dudes. And there was one particular
moment we were in a bar, and this is before UFC caught on.
This was early 2000s and he's like talking shit to this this
guy who's who's not big. Which you can tell by the ears
that he spends a lot of time on the mat.

(20:14):
I'm like, dude, just just like just get away.
And I apologize to the guy because the guy is just calm.
Of course he knows what he can do.
Yeah, he knows like he's going to, he's going to fold my
friend, like laundry and like, I'm sorry, he's drunk.
I apologize. She's like, hey, man, no
problem. No problem.
No problem. Like I like, just are you good?
He's like, yeah, yeah, man, I'm going to get him out of here.
You guys have a good night. I'm like, like, do you like, did

(20:38):
you see his ears? I'm like, what did you?
What did you think was? I don't think people knew what
that meant back then until like basically Uriah Faber around
here anyways made it popular. I didn't until I tried jiu jitsu
like. A couple of years ago.
I really, I thought just, well, I'm a big dude.
Like, I know you know stuff, butwhat's that going to do against

(21:00):
my size? Nope.
The most humbled ever. And I was like, OK, I will never
get in a fight again ever. Because like they're they can.
I was useless. The size didn't matter.
Strength didn't matter the. Harder I tried, the more wind
I'm losing and they're not even tired.
I'm like, oh man, thank gosh, this is practice.

(21:20):
Because if I was trying to hurt someone this hard, now I'm
tired. They're just getting warmed up.
I'm in serious trouble. Yeah, and if and for anyone that
has met your eye, favorite person, he's not a big guy, but
he's he's shorter than I am. However, like you like you shake
his hand and it's like, oh, thisis what shaking hands with a
statue would feel like because he's just solid everywhere.

(21:44):
And like you give him the dapperlike, Oh my God, like my dad,
you know, like hugging a wall right now.
He's just, he's just, he's just solid, like the nicest dude
ever. But yeah, like people that don't
know that people have are seriously dedicated to defending
themselves, like like people that don't even look like they

(22:05):
know jiu jitsu if they know a little bit like you aren't
serious. Oh, you're done.
If you've done jiu jitsu for three months, you're better than
like 90% of the population walking around, and nobody
believes that that's a thing. So yeah, don't pick street
fights anymore, guys. Yeah, don't do it.
Like if you like, obviously defend yourself if you have to,
but like if there's no other option, yes and go all go all

(22:26):
in. But if there's not, walk, walk
away. Like I'm, I'm at the age where
like I'm, I'm not fighting. Are you insane?
I'm like, first of all, my handsare my money makers.
I'm not messing these up if I can help it.
And it's just, it's not, it's not worthless.
Like sometimes my knees are justsore from standing all day.
I can imagine being on a mat or having to elbow or knee someone.

(22:49):
I'm like, no, no, I'm too old, too old for that now.
No kidding. So how were your 20s for you?
What was that like? A little bit better than than
the teenage years I'd grown in physical stature and.
Was that the hardest part of theteen years you think, being
small? Yeah, being small and then
slowly getting more into my artistic practice was a little

(23:14):
bit more fulfilling, but but still not fully aware and
focused on what I'm doing and what I want to do.
But I, I did enjoy myself a lot more than I was then versus
being a teenager. And it made a lot of good
friendships that are still goingstrong and and and relationship

(23:37):
with my parents got better because I was out of the house
and there. Was some tension there?
No, but just being like being a teenager, being wanted to be
independent and also learning a lot about my my parents, that
there were certain moments when I was younger where things were
tense, but I had no idea why? Because they were trying to keep

(24:00):
it together. And then learning that about it
as a 20 something like, oh, that's what you and mom were
going through. Like, I had no idea.
Yeah. Because we didn't tell you
because we wanted you to focus on school and not let our
issues. Like marital issues or finance?
Finance and and some marital issues, yeah, but you know, but

(24:21):
they weathered the storm. They've been married 50.
Dang. Five years now.
That's such an underrated accomplishment.
Just to stay married is a big deal.
Like there's so much compromise and ego suppression and just
having to be outside of yourselfand change parts of yourself
that you didn't know needed to be changed.
And I respect people that are married long term.

(24:44):
Yeah, I, I, I one of the few people that I know or even come
across whose parents have been married that long and are and
are still very, very happy with each other that, you know, there
were some rough patches, like all marriages, but they
weathered the storm. And, and my mother told me later
that we were she and my dad werereally scared once I went to

(25:07):
college because then, you know, what they had been preparing for
and sacrificing for their whole lives was now out into the world
and didn't necessarily have thatresponsibility anymore.
OK, what are they going to focustheir energy on now?
And they were afraid that that they wouldn't really have
anything in common anymore or that there would be like, they

(25:30):
just wouldn't love each other the way they did when they first
got married. And she said it was just the
opposite. And we really came together.
And it was. I didn't realize how lucky I was
until I went to college and I met kids whose parents were CEOs
of this and that and corporate Titans but the kids were raised
by. You never see them.

(25:51):
Yeah, that they were raised by nannies from Guatemala and and
they didn't even know how to usea can opener because their
nannies and chefs had done everything for them.
It was really, really weird to know that that kind of wealth
exists and if it's real. Oh, definitely, definitely.
Yeah. Do you relate to the term

(26:13):
torture artist at all? Do you ever get into shenanigans
in life? Funny you should mention that we
2 separate. Questions.
There you go. We we talked about that before
we came in here, not necessarilytortured, but feeling like

(26:34):
there's there's something wrong with you or that there is
something fundamentally flawed in wanting to be an artist
because so few people, quote UN quote make it.
Yeah. Wanting to do this with your
life just seems pointless a lot of times because you you think

(26:58):
that you won't make it or that no one wants to hear your voice
or that what what you have to say isn't valid.
That that was maybe the torturous part, but I didn't
have any long standing trauma that I knew about to fall back
on like a lot of the people thatI knew that really, really

(27:19):
traumatic lives and art was their outlet.
But I often think that's an overview cliche for people that
don't know how to manage their emotions and or are just a
nightmare to deal with. Like they they don't want to
take responsibility for their actions.
So they say, oh, I'm a tortured artist.
Oh. No, you're a Jackass.

(27:40):
You're a Dick. You're a Dick.
It's like, don't, you're rude. Don't give me that artist
nonsense. I, I, I've dealt with a lot of
that in, in school, like people that just not consider it
intentionally rude, intentionally provocative while
I'm just being an artist. Like, no, you're being a fucking
asshole. So you are being so I, I, I
think there's some truth to that, but a lot of people use it

(28:01):
for a crutch. I didn't know.
That for not taking responsibility for their
actions. So what are you comfortable
talking about what we were talking about out there?
Oh yeah. What age was that when you got
in trouble and what what did your?
Life. Thirties. 30s.
OK. Little A lot of things in my
life have come a little bit later than most people.

(28:23):
Like I didn't hit my growth spurt till I was, well, I was
late teens, early 20s. I didn't really start coming
into my own as a man to like 25 and then the like terrible
depression. It was genetic, didn't really
start to catch on until my 30s. So there was a period of time

(28:46):
where. Like clinical depression or Like
bipolar or? Not just clinical depression,
just yeah. A lot of times people are in
their 30s when that just if it'sgenetic.
Being in bed and not being able to get up and not sure why.
We're just feeling like there's this constant intense, dense
Gray cloud, wet, blank over you.Yeah, what it feels like.

(29:08):
Gravity is heavier, huh? Like, yeah, it's just hard to
move and even thoughts are harder to engage.
Yeah. And then, and then I couldn't
figure out why, because on the surface my life is great, but it
was just this weird chemical imbalance or emotional
hijacking. Something was just going on with
me then. I wasn't dealing with the
property so properly, so I dealtwith it by drinking and taking

(29:33):
certain uncontrolled illegal substances.
Yeah, OK. And that's.
Where did that lead? That led to, let's see, a DUI
that was able to be knocked downto a wet and reckless OK in
2010. That led to me getting kicked

(29:53):
out of the studio project I was a part of because my
extracurricular activities were overflowing and causing havoc
and turmoil, so the the board rightfully kicked me out.
That led to me going out and partying, having fun, and then
waking up in the parking lot of the venue I was at the night
before. I'm missing a shoe, not knowing

(30:16):
how I got there. Like sleeping on one of those
colors. Concrete.
Yeah, like the the park bumpers or whatever, Yeah.
Just waking up with like you look around, it's 2:00 in the
afternoon. I'm like.
What the? Yeah, that's going hard, yeah.
Where where am I? Like I still have all my wallet
and my stuff, but I'm missing a shoe and then realizing, OK.

(30:39):
And then that's still not the bottom and is still still doing
that. But once you go to jail and you
are being handcuffed and fingerprinted and then they put
you in the cell with all these other people to sober up.
And then you're starting to get processed like, Oh yeah, I'm,
I'm, I have, I have hit a new low.

(30:59):
And then for those of you that don't have a DUI and please
don't ever get one, but those ofyou that.
Will don't get one. They're not fun.
They're not fun. It's like taking just 10
thousand, $15,000, just setting it on fire and just watching it
burn and you can't do anything. And then all the downstream
consequences. The insurances are more
expensive. It affects jobs.

(31:21):
It shows up on various background reports.
Yes, it does. Yeah, it's really.
And then you also get flooded with mail from DUI attorneys and
because your parents address is on your driver's license, Dang
it, all of those go to your parents house and then your
parents call you in a panic slash rage because now they know

(31:45):
about what you did. And I wasn't truthful with my
parents about it. I did tell my dad about OK, yes,
I did get a DUI. I've been having some issues,
but then I didn't tell them why I got kicked out of the studio
project. So the that.
Wasn't the DUI? No, that was something totally
separate. So then the director calls my

(32:09):
dad, because my dad, he either said something on social media
or he'd held back a donation andshe wanted to know why.
And my dad told her, well, this is what Jeff told me.
She says, oh, no, this is what really happened because I didn't
tell my dad that part. And the look of just anger and
betrayal on my dad's face after that, that conversation at that

(32:31):
particular Thanksgiving was justso painful and awkward.
And I just finally just broke down and and just told my dad
what I was going through. Was it addiction related?
It was addiction related and based on being depressed, being
incredibly lonely and just not dealing with it properly.
And then, of course, that openeda door for my father and I had

(32:52):
talked because I found out he'd had drinking issues in the past,
which is one of the reasons why I never really saw him drink all
that much when I was growing up because prior to me being born,
he had a drinking problem. He was highly traumatized and
serving in Vietnam. He was highly traumatized from

(33:13):
the kind of father my grandfather was to him.
And that started a dialogue of between us about, you know, what
he went through versus what I went through.
And his as much as you try to make your children into strong,
functioning, compassionate, contributing adults, part of you

(33:37):
is going to be imprinted on them.
And sometimes, unfortunately, part of your flaws are going to
be in them as well. And that was one of the things
that my dad gave to me was the depression and the alcohol abuse
and the just not functioning at all cylinders when you should be

(33:57):
because you just you can't at times.
But then eventually, once we started talking, you know, he
taught me some things about whatgot him through it.
He had my mother to anchor him and to sort of be his North Star
and a lot of the issues that he was having in his life.

(34:18):
So he told me once you find thatthat someone hold on to her and
if it's the right fit, then she will never let you down.
And he told me about therapy andone of the nice things about
getting that that DUI was the mandatory sessions that they

(34:41):
make you go to. Like AAI.
Didn't go through to a A but they did They have mandatory
counseling. Oh OK.
I don't know what it is now, butat the time, mandatory
counseling was was part of it and just going and talking about
your problems and also realizingthere are people out there that

(35:03):
are dealing with far greater things.
As you and I were talking about a previous guest, I'm like,
Jesus Christ, this was your life.
Like this was a daily thing for you.
And the fact that you've turned out the way you have is just.
Incredible. Yeah, I got that Joseph episode.
Yeah. And it, it's, it made me think

(35:23):
of my dad when I started to hearstories about my grandfather and
what he did to my dad and what the way my father was raised.
It is a miracle that my Father is kind and compassionate and
loving, because that was not hisblueprint at all.
How did he break the cycle? I think it was me.

(35:45):
I think my birth in the way thathe wanted to be the kind of
father he wanted to be. He knew he didn't want that path
that his father laid out for himand he just decided to to change
it. And there was a point where he

(36:05):
was a manager for Singer sewing machines before they were, of
course, bankrupt or bought out, I remember exactly.
And he was doing quite well financially, but he was gone all
the time. And he would come home after
being on the road for so long. And like, I'm always in bed by

(36:26):
the time he gets home. He just made a decision.
He talked to my mom's like, I'm going to make a lot less money,
but I don't want to miss any of this.
And I'm so thankful that he didn't because as we just
discussed, I went to school witha lot of kids whose parents
didn't make that decision and itdid not turn out well for them.
And it's, it's like, again, I don't, I didn't realize how

(36:50):
lucky I was until I left and I heard how other people's parents
and fathers were. That made me really appreciate
mine. So to back it up, sorry I
digressed you. So you got the DUI and then you
got sober from the counselling? Or did I?
Well, not completely sober. I still enjoy a glass of wine.

(37:12):
Beer I like really good. You stopped doing what you were
doing. I stopped doing what I was doing
and realized like I what am again, what am I doing?
What am I so depressed about? What am I so anxious and angry
about? And I just have to go to work on
myself. And obviously the drugs and the
alcohol at times it was really fun.

(37:34):
But that's a very, it's, it's a,it's like high octane food
that's just packed with sure, you get that rush and it feels
amazing, but then you just, you just crash and you read the
labels like I can't even pronounce any of this stuff.
Why am I putting it in my body? And I just, I just got to a
point where, OK, well, I've beenkicked out of studio project.

(37:58):
I can't drive anymore for at least a year.
I'm my insurance has gone up. I'm not paying car insurance
now, but when I do, it's going to be really high again.
And all these jobs that I was going to apply for require
driving. Can't do that for a while.

(38:18):
So like, what am I? What am I doing?
And it just eventually you just,you just realize that I can't
keep going this way. So you just find a path and all
this angst and nonsense I'm dealing with, I should be
putting it into my art. And I started to, and I quickly

(38:43):
found that my life got infinitely better and it started
to hang out more with my friendsand found ways to give and
contribute to their lives. And then that had a nice little
domino effect. The last little dopamine or
whatever the chemical is, it makes you feel serotonin.
Serotonin. Oxytocin actually is probably

(39:05):
the one when you connect with other people.
Yeah, there was some sort of good chemical release in my
brain versus the. Like the artificial with the big
crash from the drugs and. Yeah, did.
Did the depression go away when you stopped drinking and
drugging so hard? No, however I learned how to
manage it and just ride it out. Like I I still have days where I

(39:31):
just I. I feel terrible and it seems
like everything is not as it should be and nothing is working
out and I've completely wasted my life.
Wow. But then now I have a little
mechanism of, well, is that true?
Do you have irrefutable evidencethat that is true that you're

(39:54):
you, you're you aren't any of these things that you're not
smart, you're not capable And like, well, no, I don't because
I have this list of accomplishments.
I have this list of people that love me.
I've this amazing woman in my life.
I have parents that tell me to the point of sometimes it being
annoying how how proud they are of me.

(40:16):
So. OK, OK, Voice.
Just it's like taking, when I was really in it, it was a loud
roar, like being at a sporting event where you where you can't
hear anything because there's somuch noise.
And then trying to file it down to now just being a whisperer.

(40:37):
Do you take meds? No, like I don't, I don't like
being beholden to medication. And I have a friend that has a
very intense traumatic experience with antidepressants
that like, if you want someone to be on the podcast, talk about
their life and, and how they've turned it around but really been

(40:58):
affected by the Pharmaceutical industry, you would be a good
guest. I'd love to talk to them.
Yeah, but no, I I still like being beholden.
I I even hate taking pain medication.
I just I'd like the thought thatmy body is going hand to like.
Only if I'm in tense pain will Itake an ibuprofen or or reach at

(41:19):
the back of the of the medicine cabinet for an old prescription
of Oxycontin from a dental surgery I had, you know, 5-6
years ago. But even that like taking half
of those and then that that's enough because anything more and
like OK. Yeah, those stupid things got.
Big I, I know that path, yeah. I'm not going down again, yeah.

(41:40):
I know that path too. Yeah, I've heard from other
other episodes, Yeah. You you had some issues, yeah as
well. Yeah.
I've gone through a few surgeries, no pain.
I mean, I take like Tylenol and edibles and stuff, but those
things got me so good. Those stupid Oxycontins and the
opiates and I hurt my ankle and you get a bottle of like 150,

(42:00):
you know, and then they want to refill it and I'm like, well, I
guess it's OK and. Yeah, I guess.
And well since the. Doctor gave it to me, but yeah,
it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's heavy and it.
So you basically treat your depression by staying aware of
when that negative voice comes, and then counteracting it with
logical things that prove it's not true?

(42:22):
Yeah, that's cool, man. It doesn't always work.
Yeah, it doesn't. Always work.
How often does years come and how long does it stay?
Is it triggered? Is it random?
It's a combination of. I very rarely get to talk to
someone who has like a deals with severe depression that
isn't on meds and so I'm just curious.
It's a combination of it will just hit me like as soon as I

(42:42):
get up in the morning, it just. But then I've noticed, and I
hear it from a lot of people andI hear it on newscasts.
I spend too much time on Instagram comparing myself to
other artists that are supposedly having these amazing
careers and lives that I just instantly feel like I am a piece

(43:03):
of garbage. Like, what am I doing with my
life? My work isn't going this
direction. I'm not in this museum.
I'm not in this show. And then I it just sort of just
this, this spiral of not feelinggood enough or smart enough just
keeps going. Where does it go?
All the way into bed? Yeah, like just comatose.

(43:23):
Not anymore because because I'm so busy now that I can't, I
can't be be comatose in bed anymore.
Even on days. Yeah, it is like staying busy
and staying in a mode where you're contributing is the best
way for at least for me to not stay in the funk.
But again, it doesn't always, always work.

(43:45):
And it will get to the point where I will look outside like,
Oh my God, the sun is going downand I've been just doom
scrolling on Instagram for 3 1/2hours.
Like what the like I could have,I could have watched 2 movies.
I could have watched, you know, I could have watched casino
back-to-back one of my favorite movies.

(44:05):
I could have watched heat. It just, it just gets, it just
gets you it's. Good to know.
Be aware of what kicks it in. Yeah, it it.
I am very much aware of it. Where it, when I was younger,
it, it would just seem to come out of nowhere and I'd just be
floundering on my back like a turtle that's been turned on his
back. Just sort of just, yeah, legs

(44:26):
like not growing, just crippled completely.
And then if you throw in like alcohol, I'm like crippled on
the floor and like, like I'm drinking.
It's so sad and tragic. Like, just like the alcohol,
it's not even most of it's on myface and my eyes.
So it's it's tears because it's burns.
But then it's like, Oh yeah, whydoesn't she love me?

(44:49):
La La, yeah. Or whatever it is just.
Nonsense. I'm glad you got a hold of it.
Yeah. How's life today for you?
It's very busy, but much better than it was in the in the mid to
late 30s. Although I'm although I'm not
happy at all about all the Gray hair I have now.
Yeah, you're. Doing pretty good.
It's not that bad. Yeah, it's just once, but when a

(45:14):
cafe attendant gives you the senior discount when you buy
your coffee and you don't even ask for it, and she does it
twice in the same week, I'm like, OK, the first time maybe
she hit the wrong bun accident, but second time, like.
It's weird to accept that like we're middle-aged, we're not
even close to young anymore. It's super weird.
I don't get carded anymore if I need it.
It's just like, Dang. Yeah, I don't care though.

(45:37):
It's like I'm, I'm, I'm trying not to care.
I'm trying not to care, but it'sit's, it's a little, it's a
little strange to realize that. Oh, yeah, just I'm just a like,
I just throw a rock and like, oh, there's fifty.
There it is. I'll see you soon.
Are you comfortable talking about your dad's situation right
now? You're kind of going through a

(45:58):
tough time. Yeah, so the.
The whole reason that I I am having this art show is from the
reality of my dad's mental condition.
He had some mini strokes when I was in my 20s and they were very

(46:23):
small, but they had a cumulativeeffect.
And he had a large one in 2016 and he bounced back rather
rather quickly. But he now has a severe mental
and physical decline. And it's not quite Alzheimer's,

(46:45):
it's not quite dementia. It's it's a condition called
mild cognitive disorder where normal things like having a
conversation is now very difficult because you may know
what you want to say upstairs, but the wiring to get it out is
jumbled. OK, so oftentimes having a

(47:08):
conversation with my dad is difficult because he the words
will get crossed up. OK, so it's not like slurred
speech. It's like using the wrong.
Words, it's a combination. It's slurred speech, it's using
the wrong words. It's the only way you want to
say. And then he just sort of stops
because it's like, it's like thegears in a machine.

(47:28):
They're, they're moving. And then there's something on
one of the treads and it just sort of, and you could
physically see him trying to figure out what to say.
And then he gets really frustrated and angry.
But because he can't say anything, I just tell him, no,
dad, just just take your time. You were saying this.

(47:51):
What's the thought? And then he'll, he'll get it.
He'll have to use a different word, but he'll eventually get
it. But sometimes there'll be 30
seconds of silence while he's his brain's just trying to
figure it out. And his memory is getting to the
point where he short term stuff is really difficult for him.

(48:12):
He can't really handle finances anymore.
He he can't drive anymore. He had an accident last summer
and then but had the enough self-awareness to realize, OK,
I'm not going to be stubborn andsay that I'm going to drive no
matter what. He's like, he actually, it was
my fault. It could have been much worse.
I don't want to to potentially be worse in the future, so I'm

(48:33):
just not going to drive anymore.Respect.
But just watching this, this wonderful man that I've loved so
much, just slowly. Sorry man.
Did you watch him just slowly shrink and his light just sort

(48:54):
of fade? It's been very difficult.
And when I found out that he hadthis condition, the only thing
that the only word that seemed to make sense was heavy like
this, this. I have this tremendous weight on
me now because I have to now deal with his reality and I have

(49:18):
to deal with my new reality of watching him slowly fade away.
And also he is aware of what's happening.
It's not like he's in dementia land and he's just off on some
sort of trip. He can see it happening.
He can feel it happening. And he tells me quite often,
like, I hate this because I knowwhat's happening to me and I

(49:40):
can't do anything about it. And I don't want to be a burden
on you or your mother. And I tell him it's an honor to
love you and serve you. So once I started dealing with
those feelings, I made this really small sketch that isn't

(50:03):
really like the type of work that I make at all.
And I thought, well, this is kind of interesting in it.
I'm not sure if this sketch really works, but it's something
it could lay a path to somethingelse.
And then I wanted to see what myfriends were doing, if they had
any heavy issues in their lives,whether it's just dealing with
the calamities of current political climate America, or if

(50:27):
they had some heavy personal issues, if they were just
dealing with heavy in a different conceptual way.
You're trying to help people howyou can get out of?
Yourself, get out of myself. That's one of the things that I
said that COVID taught me is checking on your friends because
you, you never know what they'regoing through.

(50:49):
Like COVID was a whack time. Yeah, it was.
So I once I checked in on them and we, I had studio visits, I
thought, OK, this, this is interesting.
I think, I think there's a show here.
And I had been wanting to do a group show for years.
And I finally just pulled the trigger at the beginning of the

(51:10):
year. And now the show is on the eve
of of happening. There's still so much work to
do, but it's it's 18 artists. One of them's being is is my
dad. He wanted to be a photographer
his whole life, but my grandfather always told him it

(51:32):
was dumb. You'll never make any money at
it, you should do something practical.
And he listened. And it wasn't till my
grandfather passed that my dad really started to get into
photography. And he had a really good run.
And but then he started to notice that he was forgetting
things and he would forget simple things of checking the

(51:53):
light meter. So one of the photographs in the
show is something that he made when he first started a notice
that his capacities were diminishing.
And now he's to the point where he can take something with his
with his iPhone. But it's not anywhere near of

(52:14):
the level of having lights and checking the shutter speed and
thinking about exposure. But I wanted to at least have
something of his in the show. That's cool.
And then there's all these all these other amazing artists that
are dealing with heavy in a in amyriad of ways.

(52:36):
Do you? Are you spiritual, religious.
I'm higher power, believe in God.
I do I I don't think it's as easy and comprehendible as a lot
of religious doctrines say it is.
But I can't just look at the world and the universe and think

(52:58):
it's all just chance and random equations like the, IT just just
doesn't seem possible that thereisn't a spiritual component in
the tiniest of details that there's, there's something in it

(53:21):
that human beings can connect to.
But I also think a lot of it is just far beyond what we can
comprehend on this spiritual andconscious existence anyway.
And I have a lot of friends thathave done mushrooms in
ayahuasca. And I, I know you have talked
about on various podcasts that it, it's not the same for

(53:43):
everyone, but most people I knowthat have done it have said that
they've felt oneness and some sort of connection to a larger
spiritual being than than just what you can see here and, and
touch. And I, I, I started a practice

(54:04):
years ago of soon as I get up inthe morning when the depression
isn't kicking my ass, I try to fight through it anyway of, of
just saying thank you or just like my feet just hitting the
floor. Like thank you God for this a
beautiful sunset that I'm looking at as I'm walking the
dog. Thank you for more time with
this beautiful, amazing creature.

(54:25):
Thank you for the amazing man that my father is.
Thank you for my wonderful, loving mother that that's just
an incredible woman. Thank you for the amazing woman
that I now have in my life. It's not always a sad sort of

(54:49):
crying gratitude, but it's a, it's a how do I phrase it?
It's a it's a loving sort of humbleness.
Like sometimes you're like you, you cry when you're sad, right?
Like it's just so overwhelming. Like tears are the only way I.

(55:10):
Cry a lot like I'm a crier. Yeah, obviously I am too,
although I'm really trying hard to not be complete waterworks on
the on the show it's. All good.
It's just being overwhelmed withemotion for how wonderful your
life can be, just despite all the tragedy that's going on in

(55:32):
the world and all the tragedy that you may be going through in
the moment. So you force yourself to find
things to be grateful. Yeah, dude, that is so many
guests are talking about that aslike the secret sauce to life.
It's really cool. Yeah, like I, I really, I, I

(55:52):
listen to a lot of podcasts thatare not art related.
So there there's spiritual podcasts, there's a I'll just
find some lectures. What's your favorite spiritual
podcast? It's not necessarily spiritual,
but they do talk about God a lot.
It's called Blocks by Neal Brennan.
Oh, Neil Brennan. Yeah, yeah.
He just he has severe depressionthat he likes and he's doing

(56:15):
better now. And he talks about a gratitude
journal that he keeps every day and all the comedians and and
actors and celebrities that he has on his show, all of them
thought that all this material gain and wealth and exposure and
fame would be the secret sauce to making them happy.
And they all realize they got top of the mountain.

(56:36):
They're like, this is it. Like there has to be something
more? And part of it is gratitude.
Like despite your accolades and wealth, if you're not grateful
for what you have and you're not, and you're constantly
looking over your shoulder or you're constantly comparing

(56:57):
yourself to people versus looking internally and being
grateful what you have, then then you're, it's going to be
miserable not matter how much you accomplish.
And I, and I've heard a lot of people, I think it might, it
might have been Warren Buffett or, or Mark Cuban was on a
podcast. It might have been actually

(57:17):
might have been Tom Segura's recent podcast where they said
if you're not, if you don't finda way to have fun and be
generous when you don't have money, you're not going to be
able to do it when you do have money.
So he said he he says that, yeah, I've I've made all these
millions of dollars, but I was just as happy and fulfilled when
I was broke in my 20s hustling with my friends because my

(57:39):
parents taught me to be grateful.
They taught me that that hard work matters and, and hard work
that you're passionate about is what is what will fulfill you.
That that you, you, you need to be content in all areas of life
that you are interested in. It's not going to be constant,

(58:02):
but at least should be a journeyand a constant pursuit to to
find gratitude. And no matter what you're going
through and all the things that sort of led up to the drinking
and the drugs, I'm, I'm so grateful that I, I got busted

(58:22):
when I did because there were times where I would drive home
and I would wake up on my floor.How did I get?
I drove home. I remember driving home and I
mean, I could have killed someone.
I could have seriously damaged some property.

(58:43):
I could have done all these things, and yet I didn't.
And I got pulled over when I waskind of drunk, but not really is
sauce as I usually are, as I usually are.
And and thankfully I wasn't thatfar from my apartment at the
time either. But being grateful for all of
that because it, you know, it got me to the path I'm on.

(59:07):
That's awesome today, and I've interrupted you like 50 times.
You handled it well, but anything else you want to share?
Stories you want to tell? Things you want to leave the
audience with? Anything on your mind?
I would say don't be afraid of the difficult things.
I no, I wouldn't say that. Don't lean into the difficult

(59:27):
things. Do lean into the.
Difficult. Lean into the difficult things.
What do you mean by that? Don't be afraid of the
challenge. Don't be afraid of the
uncomfortableness that you will feel in the moment because it
will pass. If you are willing to do the
work like whatever that difficulty is, lean, lean into

(59:53):
it because you, there is gold onthe other side of that mountain.
And in the moment you may feel like your world is crashing all
around you and your your hormones will be spiking.
Cortisol will be shooting through your bloodstream at an
alarming rate. But just keep, keep going
through it. Keep.

(01:00:14):
Keep pushing, keep growing, and you will.
You will find you're much more resilient than you give yourself
credit for. Yeah, it's crazy, too.
When you get through hard times after things settle and the next
chapter is stable, I guess you look back and you're like, man,
I couldn't have changed that. Like, I might not be here.

(01:00:35):
And I see a purpose for it. Yeah, like what you were
describing, you see a purpose and your addiction and I don't
know how you if you're seeing purpose in your dad's issue,
that's tough, especially going through it, but.
It's it's, it's made me more patient and with him, just
knowing that he's having a really difficult time and also

(01:00:58):
learning to be patient was difficult for me.
But one of the ways that I forced myself to be more patient
was I took a job that I was not qualified for in a country where
I didn't speak the language. And it forced me to just go with
the flow of OK, this isn't goinghow I want it to go at all.

(01:01:22):
I don't know how this is going to end up, but I will figure it
out because I don't have any other choice in this moment.
And the job was teaching Englishand art based English in China.
And I, I didn't have any friends.
I didn't have any connections about.

(01:01:42):
I had an opportunity to do it. And so I took it and I was, I
lived there for two years and itwas challenging all the time,
but learning how to keep the attention of and control,
control 45, sometimes 56 year olds.

(01:02:06):
Not even in your native language.
Not even in native language. Granted I had a teaching
assistant who would translate when I needed to.
Being able to do that and then learning how to just deal with
with Chinese people out in the world in society, not only is
the language an issue because you can, the language cannot be

(01:02:28):
an issue. I was fairly fluent at one time,
but just dealing with how the society is structured that
things just take time and you can't rush this.
This should take 15 minutes, butnow it's going to take an hour.
All right, Just go with the flow.
All of that, all. And I remember in the moment
like this is so frustrating and angry.

(01:02:50):
It's like all I need is this. Why you why?
Why are there barriers to this? Clearly I have all my documents.
Clearly my friend is translatingaccurately because I know a lot
of what he's saying. Why is this so difficult and why
are these kids out of their mindright now?
I was like, I can't put on another movie.
Like I have to get these lessonsplanned and I have to get them

(01:03:13):
to take this test and I have to get them to do this.
And then dealing with the people, the school, and then
dealing with my friends and dealing with the people I was
involved with. It was all just so much.
But I remember, I mean, all of it was done and I came back to
the state and I look back, I thought I did all that.

(01:03:33):
And now that I think about it, like, what was I so scared of?
What? What did I find so
insurmountable? Because obviously I surmounted
it because I'm here and it's past and it's behind me.
And that's one of the things that I meant when I say lean
into the difficulties, seek the challenges out, because if, if

(01:03:57):
you don't, then you're, you're just stagnant and you won't, you
won't grow. And, and that's like what,
especially with with art, like if you're not constantly
challenging yourself and you just get stuck in a, in a style
or a mode of working, then your,your, your work would just be in

(01:04:19):
this time capsule and you, you won't expand.
And that's that's to me, that's a death sentence as an artist is
not being. Or as a person.
Or as a person just stuck in onemode of thinking and living,
it's just not the way to go. So all those things that are

(01:04:39):
difficult in the moment, they will get you through it.
So a lot of the patients that I share with my dad, I learned a
lot of that in China because I had no other choice.
So now when my dad's having a difficult moment, I'm like, come
on, dad, just fucking just pick that up.
Oh, that's right, he can't. Just go with.
It like it's like just like OK dad, where are we going?

(01:05:02):
Like I'm driving because he doesn't drive anymore so
probably where are we going? Dad, I was like, OK, OK, OK,
he's trying to get it out. Or maybe he just doesn't
remember. So just just be.
Just be patient. Just keep cruising.
Just go with it all. Right, we'll, we'll, we'll take
the scenic route. What's the What's the name of
your art show and where is it? It's the name of It is Heavy.

(01:05:26):
It's a group exhibition of 18 artists that are all from and
based here in Sacramento. It's taking place at the We Are
We Are. Maybe edit that out?
All good. It's it's a gallery by We Are

(01:05:46):
Sacramento and it's over on 10/19 Del Paso.
And when is it? The opening reception is April
12th, OK, next Saturday from from 5:00 to 9:00.
And then it will be up until April 27th.
And I believe their hours are during the week.

(01:06:07):
I think there are, I think it's just Sunday, Saturday and Sunday
from like 1:00 to 5:00. But it but it will be up for two
weeks. It's a beautiful space and
they've really done something special over there.
And yeah, it's, yeah, it's goingto be a great show.
Good man. Well, good luck.
I hope it goes well and I appreciate you coming on dude.
Oh, I'm late. Yeah, it was my my pleasure.

(01:06:29):
Like I've I don't do podcasts very often.
I think it's only the second oneI've ever done.
So I'm honored to host it. Well, thanks for having me.