Today we unpack the profound impact light has on our environment, health, and communities, guided by insights from Maria Dautant, a senior Associate at HLB Lighting Design. Maria is joined by cofounder of the VLD Community, Ingmar Klaasen, as they dive into the pressing issues of light pollution and light poverty, exploring the adverse effects of sky glow, glare, and light trespass. Maria emphasises the critical need for balanced lighting guidelines and the role of governmental education in making informed decisions that don't compromise human health or energy savings.
The conversation touches on the indigenous communities living without reliable electric lighting, discussing innovative solutions like seawater lamps and solar-powered devices. Traditional lighting methods such as kerosene lamps and torches come with serious safety concerns, but new technologies offer promising alternatives. Maria and Ingmar also uncover surprising insights about the global impact of light pollution, examining cities like St. Petersburg and Helsinki, and pondering the role of snow in their brightness rankings. From the benefits of LED lighting for energy savings to the challenges of preserving dark skies while addressing light poverty, this conversation is all about finding the right balance between efficiency and liveability.
For anyone who hasn't heard Maria Dautant's presentation on the topic of 'Light Pollution vs Light Poverty' in the previous episode, please do go back and listen to that, it's well worth listening to it right to the end. It'll add a lot of nuance and depth to the concepts touched on in this Q&A.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hello again from the Virtual Lighting Design
community, where today we unpackthe impact of light on our
environment, health andcommunities a little bit more.
In this episode we expand onthe thought-provoking insights
shared by Maria Dotton, seniorAssociate at HLB Lighting Design
, as she addresses the criticalissues of light pollution versus
light poverty.
Maria's earlier presentationsparked conversations around the
(00:24):
effects of sky glow, glare andlight trespass.
If you haven't heard Maria'searlier presentation, please do
go back and listen to that.
It's well worth a listen rightto the end.
In this post-presentation Q&Asession, co-founder of the
virtual lighting designcommunity, ingmar Klarsen joins
the conversation.
Before we head into today'sepisode, a quick thank you to
our bespoke supportersconversation.
(00:45):
Before we head into today'sepisode, a quick thank you to
our bespoke supporters aerohospitality lighting, creative
lighting, asia, erico, thesignify lighting academy and
philips lighting.
Do also check out our onlinecommunity, vldcommunity.
Here's the conversation withmaria and ingmar clarson Klassen
.
Thank you so much, marie.
(01:07):
That was a very fascinatingpresentation.
We've actually had a number ofdifferent people talk about dark
skies on the VLD community, butit was really inspiring to hear
you actually define bothextremes of light you know,
having too much and also nothaving enough and it was really
interesting to hear also aboutwhat that effect in one city can
(01:30):
have on another city 200kilometres away, and also
bringing attention to Article.
Was it 2.5, the UniversalDeclaration, 25.
25, sorry, the Universal.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Declaration.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And I found it interesting to hear that because
you were almost talking aboutit from a good governance point
of view, which I think is alittle bit different to what
others have talked to.
So then you're actuallytackling that issue not just,
you know, on a local scale orjust individualizing it, but we
(02:06):
all have a part to play in it,also at a governmental level.
Absolutely, would you say.
There's a bit of a.
I think you mentioned at theend about how important it is to
have balance.
One can quickly become theother extreme.
Oh, yes, yes yeah, how would yousay that it is best done to to
(02:32):
avoid the the risk of thathappening?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I think.
Well, everybody will say this,but education is a big part of
it, but not necessarilyeducation on a local or a
personal level, right, we cancertainly educate all of our
students, all of our lightingdesigners, even our architects,
but I think it has to be aneducation at a governmental
level, right, because thegovernments are the ones that
(02:59):
are setting the rules, they arethe ones that are in charge of
creating these guidelines, andthey may reach out to us for
input, but at the end of the day, they're the ones that are
putting this out there, right?
So, to give you an example, inNew York City a while ago there
was a change in the regulation,right, they wanted to go into
(03:22):
LEDs and they decided that 4000Kwas the best color temperature
to go with.
And all lighting designers, ofcourse, raised their hands and
said hey, wait a minute, thismay not be the most the best
approach.
Yes, sure, you can have 4000Kfor better visual acuity in the
streets, but New York City beingsuch a populated city, acuity
(03:47):
in the streets, but New YorkCity being such a populated city
, then you will have this brightblue light coming out of the
streets and entering people'shouses, and this may not be the
healthiest approach yet.
So even when governments havegood intentions and they get
into this whole idea of, well,let's reduce carbon emissions,
right, let's go with energysavings, there may still be a
(04:09):
need for us to get involved inthose conversations and bring
the knowledge that we have tomake sure that whatever
regulations, whatever guidelinesare set for cities and
communities and neighborhoods,they will be the best.
Yet and that's where I thinkour input needs to go to right,
(04:30):
because this presentation, asyou said, it deals with it on a
much of a social level than itis a technical or a scientific
level.
It does take the science intothe presentation to explain the
point, but it is.
We are talking about a socialproblem here.
It's not just an environmentalissue, it is a social problem
(04:51):
that we're starting to see.
So, definitely, going back toyour question, we need to get
ourselves involved in thecreation of regulation and the
creation of guidelines and makesure that we are informing the
people that are making thedecision so that the decisions
that are made are the bestpossible.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, thank you for that answer.
That actually brings me toanother point that you made
about this.
I think it had to do with theBordeaux measurement that you
showed and whether to mitigateor to preserve.
That is more focused on how topreserve the dark sky, but how
(05:32):
would that tie into the lightpoverty side of things, where
that approach might not work thesame?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Well, so the reason why I showed the scale is it's
really because this presentationinitially was done for a group
of people here in the MiddleEast.
As you know, here in the MiddleEast there has been a lot of
work into developing areas thathad never been developed before.
If we are going into theseareas, it means that we're going
(06:00):
to introduce lighting into theenvironment.
So obviously we need tounderstand certainly where we
are right.
Most likely these areas aregoing to have a perfect,
pristine night sky, so what canwe do to preserve that as much
as possible and not introducelight pollution into the
environment in a way that itwill not just affect that area,
(06:22):
as I said before, but it mayaffect many areas around it?
Right, but in terms of light,sorry, in terms of light poverty
, where I think the scale isgoing to help us quite a lot is
that, as you also saw, I'm notjust classifying light poverty
as an area that has no lighting,but I'm also trying to bring
(06:43):
attention to areas where thereis lighting.
It's just not the right kind oflighting, right?
I'm going to make a small breakhere.
You know, when people talk aboutpoverty, we tend to think of
people that lack something.
Completely right.
But if you think about itclearly, poverty is also a
(07:06):
situation when you have lowquality of something, for
example, somebody that is poorof health.
It doesn't mean that they haveno health at all.
It means that health is not thethinking that even in inner
cities, where there's plenty oflight for everyone to go around,
we can still have a situationof light poverty just by
(07:29):
introducing a low-qualitylighting system into the
environment.
Right, and so this is alsowhere the Bortles scale can help
Cities that are very, verypolluted.
Maybe they need to be re-lookedat, because it may be that in
certain areas, the situation isthat we're incorporating
lighting that is not adequatefor the neighborhoods, and this
(07:51):
is at the same time causing twoproblems light poverty and light
pollution at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, thank you for that.
That's a really nicedistinction to make because it's
often overlooked and sometimesit can get a little bit
confusing.
On the different things, weactually had our own personal
experience here in WesternAustralia.
I loved how you showed beforeabout the effect of poor
(08:18):
lighting on the environment fromthe different animals turtles
breeding and the predatory andmigratory patterns.
We had a project in thenorthwest of Western Australia
which was a hotel which wasright on the beach, not a huge
hotel, but it happened to belocated directly opposite a
(08:38):
turtle breeding beach, so allthe lighting that there was.
That was a very interesting onebecause we also had the
environmental people and youknow it was quite tightly
regulated about what we could doto not disturb the breeding
patterns of the turtles on thatbeach.
(08:59):
So all the quality of lightended up being a really
important part of it.
Also controlling the light.
So there wasn't that tresp,like you said, the the pollution
and the trespass from havingthat amber type of lighting,
using low bowlers, havingindirect light type of lighting
and and really controlling wherethat and at the same time, not
(09:24):
having that affect the socialand cultural aspect of the hotel
, because it still needs to be aplace where people go and, you
know, visit and enjoy themselves.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And people need to feel safe and comfortable, right
?
Exactly, and that comes back tothe idea that darkness is not a
comfortable environment.
When a place is too dark, itmakes you feel a little scared,
right?
It's like you don't want tomove.
You don't know if you're safeor not.
(09:57):
So exactly what you're saying.
It's very important to makethat distinction right.
It means that incorporatinglighting into an environment
doesn't have to be damaging,right?
We just need to make sure thatthe quality of lighting is right
for the environment as well asourselves, because darkness is
not comfortable at all.
(10:20):
No, and that's why I mentionedmy my little story at the
beginning because I I was reallyhaving this sort of like dual
moment, right, I am sofascinating, what with the stars
and everything, but at the sametime, when I look down and I
look around me, it's like Idon't see anything.
I better not even move becauseI don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I don't know where I can go and moving right in front
of your eyes.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
That's how dark it is , yeah exactly, exactly, and um,
and it does.
We are unfortunately well,maybe it's not an unfortunate,
but it we are beings that havedeveloped our, our environment,
our, our relationships aroundthe availability of light right.
(11:06):
So we need to not only acceptthat, but we also need to
understand how we can stillfunction after hours without
necessarily damaging theenvironment around us.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Definitely A hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
It is that balance.
It's a very difficult one toachieve, and we're still trying
to figure out what that balanceis, and I think that's perfectly
fine.
It's just that I would not pushfor one end or the other right,
because at the end of the day,these are both extremes, and
extremes are never good.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So tell me a bit more about the seawater lamp
initiative that you're talkingabout.
Maybe that was just somethingyou mentioned in passing, but
that is something that I haven'theard of before.
Do you know anything more aboutit?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I don't know much about it.
I did see it in one of theonline design magazines and I
thought it was fascinatingbecause, obviously, me, being
from venezuela, I I really feltattracted to that, to that
program.
So the the the way, the peoplein this area are indigenous
(12:24):
people, of course, and theystill live, in a way or another,
a little bit like they used tolive before the colonization of
the Americans, right?
Not exactly, of course, thedevelopment has changed their
way of life to a certain extent,but the fact is that they they
do not have the same access toelectric lighting as everybody
(12:44):
else.
However, it is needed, right?
Otherwise, for them it would bevery difficult to move around.
I mean, if you think aboutpeople that have no electric
lighting, then they will alwaysfind, or try to find, a way to
move, to create light.
Sometimes it's kerosene lamps,sometimes it's torches, whatever
(13:05):
it is, but it's not going to bea safe environment, right?
When you introduce fire intoyour environment, there's always
some level of risk.
So this lamp, like I said, theone thing that I know is that in
this area, being in the coast,it just uses the environment to
create the lighting that theyneed.
They can fill the lamp withseawater and the lamp will
(13:31):
ionize the water and createlight and create electricity.
And my understanding is thatthat ionization process can last
a couple of days, so they don'thave to go and gather water
every four or five hours orsomething like that.
So in that sense it's actuallyvery, very useful.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Because when you mentioned it I thought oh wow,
that is something I have notheard, but what a clever idea
that is.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And I'm sure hey, I only mentioned two programs here
, right, but I'm sure, and Ithink I've seen a couple of
other.
Yeah, there are many moreprograms out there.
For example, my husband has alittle lamp here from I think
it's a friend that gave it tohim.
They were trying to addresslight poverty in certain parts
of Africa and it's just a littlesquare that gets charged with
(14:20):
sunlight throughout the day andthen it just functions at night.
And it has a similar approachto the seawater lamp in the
sense that you can not just useit for light, but you can also
charge certain devices from it,so it creates electricity, not
just light, but being light suchan important part of our life
after dark, then obviously thatis one of the main things that
(14:42):
they want to um, that they wantto use the these gadgets for I
loved how you brought up as well, because this is something that
I haven't also um known beforeyou mentioned.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It was about the, the global average light.
Uh, yeah, was a lot ofpollution.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yep, the global.
It's the average globalbrightness of.
So if you take all this aroundthe world and you create a
global average.
Right the ones that are theleast bright against the ones
that are the brightest and youcreate a global average.
Then the top 10 that we showedhere is actually cities or
(15:25):
metropolitan areas that are wayabove that global average.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, I was quite surprised to see St Petersburg
on there and some of the Russiancities, and even Finland was on
there and I wouldn't havethought that.
But yeah, some of thesurprising ones actually.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I can't exactly say why.
Obviously because this is justa ranking that in my research I
found, and a friend actuallyshared it with me, but it would
be interesting to find outwhether this snow has a lot to
do with that.
You know, saint peter, saintpetersburg, moscow, finland, of
(16:08):
course, all of those cities.
They spend a lot of the yearwith the snow cover and being,
you know, snow being white,obviously, or light in color I
wonder if that comes into playbecause of the reflection.
I haven't actually gone intoresearching that, but when I saw
(16:29):
the ranking that was my thought.
Maybe this has something toplay.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Coming back to a regulatory, governmental level,
when you talked about againmitigating and preserving, do
you see that being a bit likethem trying to tackle climate
change, where every country istrying to maybe set targets for
themselves, a bit like they didwith the Paris Agreement for
(16:55):
trying to mitigate globalwarming?
Is there something similar Likehow do you see that?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yes, is something similar Like how do you see that
?
Yes, I do think the shift toLEDs is something that has been
done just to save energy andtackle the carbon emissions
Absolutely, and that's why Imentioned in the presentation
that many, many communities areconcerned about shifting from
(17:24):
their legacy sources to LED,because the thought process is,
oh, leds are going to bebrighter or LEDs are going to be
cooler, and the problem is thatmany cities have made this
shift without really thinkingabout it.
It's more.
I'm going to look at it fromthe point of view of energy.
I'm not looking at it from thepoint of view of energy.
I'm not looking at it from thepoint of view of quality quality
(17:46):
lighting.
Right Again, as an example,back home, back in Venezuela,
there was a moment in time a fewyears ago where the government
wanted people to lower their useof energy in the evenings, and
so they promoted the use ofcompact fluorescent lighting,
and of course, they just gavethem away.
(18:07):
Right, okay, come, get yourlamps so that you pay less in
energy.
And it did work in that sense.
But it also backfired in thesense that people didn't like
the quality of the light thatthey introduced into their homes
.
So we have to look at streetlighting and community lighting
in the same way, right?
It's not just about savingenergy that they introduce into
their homes, so we have to lookat street lighting and community
lighting in the same way, right?
It's not just about savingenergy you can still do that,
(18:29):
right, by shifting to LEDs butwe also need to look at LEDs as
this source that has manydifferent characteristics that
we have to regulate.
We need to look at the colortemperature.
You need to look at theavailability of the blue
spectrum.
We need to look at thedistribution of the light,
(18:50):
whether it is full cutoff orhalf cutoff.
There's so many different itemsthat we have to look at.
Also, the dimming levels, likethe examples that I showed in
Tucson, right, because at theend of the day, we're going from
a legacy lamp that is not sosmart to a lamp that has the
(19:12):
ability to be smart right, andwe can use that.
We can use that smart part ofthe LED lighting to go beyond,
just simply, energy savings.
But I do think, as you say,that the change in cities is
coming from that point of view.
I mean, after all, the carbonemissions is something that we
(19:34):
definitely need to take care of,but we always need to be
careful in how we move from oneextreme to the other.
Like I said, we always have tofind a balance.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I think that's a really great way, I think, to
end the Q&A, I guess after thepresentation.
So thank you again.
I'm sure that our audience willhave more questions, which I
guess they can come throughwhenever people want to comment.
That'll be great.
And yeah, thanks again, maria,for coming on to doing your
(20:09):
presentation for the virtuallighting design community.
At some point we will be havinga panel discussion with others
who have talked about a similartopic.
I mentioned a couple of them,but we also had Charles Stone
talk about dark sky and PaulinaVillalobos also talked about it.
(20:33):
So we might organize a paneland we, you know, at a time when
we come together and then wecan actually delve a little bit
more into what each of us havetalked about in those
presentations.
I think that would be anothergreat way to explore that topic
a bit more, if you're keen forthat.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, absolutely, that would be fantastic.
Yeah, I love it.
We can all bring our own littlepiece of knowledge into the
conversation Exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It's all about education.
I think, yeah, absolutely.
What you mentioned is theconversation it's all about
education.
I think that's what youmentioned is the key, all right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Well, thank you so much to you and to the VLDC.
I'm looking forward to more.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
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Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
(21:44):
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at vldcommunity
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Until next time.
Hello again from the Virtual Lighting Design
community, where today we unpackthe impact of light on our
environment, health andcommunities a little bit more.
In this episode we expand onthe thought-provoking insights
shared by Maria Dotton, seniorAssociate at HLB Lighting Design
, as she addresses the criticalissues of light pollution versus
light poverty.
Maria's earlier presentationsparked conversations around the
(00:24):
effects of sky glow, glare andlight trespass.
If you haven't heard Maria'searlier presentation, please do
go back and listen to that.
It's well worth a listen rightto the end.
In this post-presentation Q&Asession, co-founder of the
virtual lighting designcommunity, ingmar Klarsen joins
the conversation.
Before we head into today'sepisode, a quick thank you to
our bespoke supportersconversation.
(00:45):
Before we head into today'sepisode, a quick thank you to
our bespoke supporters aerohospitality lighting, creative
lighting, asia, erico, thesignify lighting academy and
philips lighting.
Do also check out our onlinecommunity, vldcommunity.
Here's the conversation withmaria and ingmar clarson Klassen
.
Thank you so much, marie.
(01:07):
That was a very fascinatingpresentation.
We've actually had a number ofdifferent people talk about dark
skies on the VLD community, butit was really inspiring to hear
you actually define bothextremes of light you know,
having too much and also nothaving enough and it was really
interesting to hear also aboutwhat that effect in one city can
(01:30):
have on another city 200kilometres away, and also
bringing attention to Article.
Was it 2.5, the UniversalDeclaration, 25.
25, sorry, the Universal.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Declaration.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And I found it interesting to hear that because
you were almost talking aboutit from a good governance point
of view, which I think is alittle bit different to what
others have talked to.
So then you're actuallytackling that issue not just,
you know, on a local scale orjust individualizing it, but we
(02:06):
all have a part to play in it,also at a governmental level.
Absolutely, would you say.
There's a bit of a.
I think you mentioned at theend about how important it is to
have balance.
One can quickly become theother extreme.
Oh, yes, yes yeah, how would yousay that it is best done to to
(02:32):
avoid the the risk of thathappening?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I think.
Well, everybody will say this,but education is a big part of
it, but not necessarilyeducation on a local or a
personal level, right, we cancertainly educate all of our
students, all of our lightingdesigners, even our architects,
but I think it has to be aneducation at a governmental
level, right, because thegovernments are the ones that
(02:59):
are setting the rules, they arethe ones that are in charge of
creating these guidelines, andthey may reach out to us for
input, but at the end of the day, they're the ones that are
putting this out there, right?
So, to give you an example, inNew York City a while ago there
was a change in the regulation,right, they wanted to go into
(03:22):
LEDs and they decided that 4000Kwas the best color temperature
to go with.
And all lighting designers, ofcourse, raised their hands and
said hey, wait a minute, thismay not be the most the best
approach.
Yes, sure, you can have 4000Kfor better visual acuity in the
streets, but New York City beingsuch a populated city, acuity
(03:47):
in the streets, but New YorkCity being such a populated city
, then you will have this brightblue light coming out of the
streets and entering people'shouses, and this may not be the
healthiest approach yet.
So even when governments havegood intentions and they get
into this whole idea of, well,let's reduce carbon emissions,
right, let's go with energysavings, there may still be a
(04:09):
need for us to get involved inthose conversations and bring
the knowledge that we have tomake sure that whatever
regulations, whatever guidelinesare set for cities and
communities and neighborhoods,they will be the best.
Yet and that's where I thinkour input needs to go to right,
(04:30):
because this presentation, asyou said, it deals with it on a
much of a social level than itis a technical or a scientific
level.
It does take the science intothe presentation to explain the
point, but it is.
We are talking about a socialproblem here.
It's not just an environmentalissue, it is a social problem
(04:51):
that we're starting to see.
So, definitely, going back toyour question, we need to get
ourselves involved in thecreation of regulation and the
creation of guidelines and makesure that we are informing the
people that are making thedecision so that the decisions
that are made are the bestpossible.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, thank you for that answer.
That actually brings me toanother point that you made
about this.
I think it had to do with theBordeaux measurement that you
showed and whether to mitigateor to preserve.
That is more focused on how topreserve the dark sky, but how
(05:32):
would that tie into the lightpoverty side of things, where
that approach might not work thesame?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Well, so the reason why I showed the scale is it's
really because this presentationinitially was done for a group
of people here in the MiddleEast.
As you know, here in the MiddleEast there has been a lot of
work into developing areas thathad never been developed before.
If we are going into theseareas, it means that we're going
(06:00):
to introduce lighting into theenvironment.
So obviously we need tounderstand certainly where we
are right.
Most likely these areas aregoing to have a perfect,
pristine night sky, so what canwe do to preserve that as much
as possible and not introducelight pollution into the
environment in a way that itwill not just affect that area,
(06:22):
as I said before, but it mayaffect many areas around it?
Right, but in terms of light,sorry, in terms of light poverty
, where I think the scale isgoing to help us quite a lot is
that, as you also saw, I'm notjust classifying light poverty
as an area that has no lighting,but I'm also trying to bring
(06:43):
attention to areas where thereis lighting.
It's just not the right kind oflighting, right?
I'm going to make a small breakhere.
You know, when people talk aboutpoverty, we tend to think of
people that lack something.
Completely right.
But if you think about itclearly, poverty is also a
(07:06):
situation when you have lowquality of something, for
example, somebody that is poorof health.
It doesn't mean that they haveno health at all.
It means that health is not thethinking that even in inner
cities, where there's plenty oflight for everyone to go around,
we can still have a situationof light poverty just by
(07:29):
introducing a low-qualitylighting system into the
environment.
Right, and so this is alsowhere the Bortles scale can help
Cities that are very, verypolluted.
Maybe they need to be re-lookedat, because it may be that in
certain areas, the situation isthat we're incorporating
lighting that is not adequatefor the neighborhoods, and this
(07:51):
is at the same time causing twoproblems light poverty and light
pollution at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, thank you for that.
That's a really nicedistinction to make because it's
often overlooked and sometimesit can get a little bit
confusing.
On the different things, weactually had our own personal
experience here in WesternAustralia.
I loved how you showed beforeabout the effect of poor
(08:18):
lighting on the environment fromthe different animals turtles
breeding and the predatory andmigratory patterns.
We had a project in thenorthwest of Western Australia
which was a hotel which wasright on the beach, not a huge
hotel, but it happened to belocated directly opposite a
(08:38):
turtle breeding beach, so allthe lighting that there was.
That was a very interesting onebecause we also had the
environmental people and youknow it was quite tightly
regulated about what we could doto not disturb the breeding
patterns of the turtles on thatbeach.
(08:59):
So all the quality of lightended up being a really
important part of it.
Also controlling the light.
So there wasn't that tresp,like you said, the the pollution
and the trespass from havingthat amber type of lighting,
using low bowlers, havingindirect light type of lighting
and and really controlling wherethat and at the same time, not
(09:24):
having that affect the socialand cultural aspect of the hotel
, because it still needs to be aplace where people go and, you
know, visit and enjoy themselves.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And people need to feel safe and comfortable, right
?
Exactly, and that comes back tothe idea that darkness is not a
comfortable environment.
When a place is too dark, itmakes you feel a little scared,
right?
It's like you don't want tomove.
You don't know if you're safeor not.
(09:57):
So exactly what you're saying.
It's very important to makethat distinction right.
It means that incorporatinglighting into an environment
doesn't have to be damaging,right?
We just need to make sure thatthe quality of lighting is right
for the environment as well asourselves, because darkness is
not comfortable at all.
(10:20):
No, and that's why I mentionedmy my little story at the
beginning because I I was reallyhaving this sort of like dual
moment, right, I am sofascinating, what with the stars
and everything, but at the sametime, when I look down and I
look around me, it's like Idon't see anything.
I better not even move becauseI don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I don't know where I can go and moving right in front
of your eyes.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
That's how dark it is , yeah exactly, exactly, and um,
and it does.
We are unfortunately well,maybe it's not an unfortunate,
but it we are beings that havedeveloped our, our environment,
our, our relationships aroundthe availability of light right.
(11:06):
So we need to not only acceptthat, but we also need to
understand how we can stillfunction after hours without
necessarily damaging theenvironment around us.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Definitely A hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
It is that balance.
It's a very difficult one toachieve, and we're still trying
to figure out what that balanceis, and I think that's perfectly
fine.
It's just that I would not pushfor one end or the other right,
because at the end of the day,these are both extremes, and
extremes are never good.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So tell me a bit more about the seawater lamp
initiative that you're talkingabout.
Maybe that was just somethingyou mentioned in passing, but
that is something that I haven'theard of before.
Do you know anything more aboutit?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I don't know much about it.
I did see it in one of theonline design magazines and I
thought it was fascinatingbecause, obviously, me, being
from venezuela, I I really feltattracted to that, to that
program.
So the the the way, the peoplein this area are indigenous
(12:24):
people, of course, and theystill live, in a way or another,
a little bit like they used tolive before the colonization of
the Americans, right?
Not exactly, of course, thedevelopment has changed their
way of life to a certain extent,but the fact is that they they
do not have the same access toelectric lighting as everybody
(12:44):
else.
However, it is needed, right?
Otherwise, for them it would bevery difficult to move around.
I mean, if you think aboutpeople that have no electric
lighting, then they will alwaysfind, or try to find, a way to
move, to create light.
Sometimes it's kerosene lamps,sometimes it's torches, whatever
(13:05):
it is, but it's not going to bea safe environment, right?
When you introduce fire intoyour environment, there's always
some level of risk.
So this lamp, like I said, theone thing that I know is that in
this area, being in the coast,it just uses the environment to
create the lighting that theyneed.
They can fill the lamp withseawater and the lamp will
(13:31):
ionize the water and createlight and create electricity.
And my understanding is thatthat ionization process can last
a couple of days, so they don'thave to go and gather water
every four or five hours orsomething like that.
So in that sense it's actuallyvery, very useful.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Because when you mentioned it I thought oh wow,
that is something I have notheard, but what a clever idea
that is.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And I'm sure hey, I only mentioned two programs here
, right, but I'm sure, and Ithink I've seen a couple of
other.
Yeah, there are many moreprograms out there.
For example, my husband has alittle lamp here from I think
it's a friend that gave it tohim.
They were trying to addresslight poverty in certain parts
of Africa and it's just a littlesquare that gets charged with
(14:20):
sunlight throughout the day andthen it just functions at night.
And it has a similar approachto the seawater lamp in the
sense that you can not just useit for light, but you can also
charge certain devices from it,so it creates electricity, not
just light, but being light suchan important part of our life
after dark, then obviously thatis one of the main things that
(14:42):
they want to um, that they wantto use the these gadgets for I
loved how you brought up as well, because this is something that
I haven't also um known beforeyou mentioned.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It was about the, the global average light.
Uh, yeah, was a lot ofpollution.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yep, the global.
It's the average globalbrightness of.
So if you take all this aroundthe world and you create a
global average.
Right the ones that are theleast bright against the ones
that are the brightest and youcreate a global average.
Then the top 10 that we showedhere is actually cities or
(15:25):
metropolitan areas that are wayabove that global average.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, I was quite surprised to see St Petersburg
on there and some of the Russiancities, and even Finland was on
there and I wouldn't havethought that.
But yeah, some of thesurprising ones actually.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I can't exactly say why.
Obviously because this is justa ranking that in my research I
found, and a friend actuallyshared it with me, but it would
be interesting to find outwhether this snow has a lot to
do with that.
You know, saint peter, saintpetersburg, moscow, finland, of
(16:08):
course, all of those cities.
They spend a lot of the yearwith the snow cover and being,
you know, snow being white,obviously, or light in color I
wonder if that comes into playbecause of the reflection.
I haven't actually gone intoresearching that, but when I saw
(16:29):
the ranking that was my thought.
Maybe this has something toplay.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Coming back to a regulatory, governmental level,
when you talked about againmitigating and preserving, do
you see that being a bit likethem trying to tackle climate
change, where every country istrying to maybe set targets for
themselves, a bit like they didwith the Paris Agreement for
(16:55):
trying to mitigate globalwarming?
Is there something similar Likehow do you see that?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yes, is something similar Like how do you see that
?
Yes, I do think the shift toLEDs is something that has been
done just to save energy andtackle the carbon emissions
Absolutely, and that's why Imentioned in the presentation
that many, many communities areconcerned about shifting from
(17:24):
their legacy sources to LED,because the thought process is,
oh, leds are going to bebrighter or LEDs are going to be
cooler, and the problem is thatmany cities have made this
shift without really thinkingabout it.
It's more.
I'm going to look at it fromthe point of view of energy.
I'm not looking at it from thepoint of view of energy.
I'm not looking at it from thepoint of view of quality quality
(17:46):
lighting.
Right Again, as an example,back home, back in Venezuela,
there was a moment in time a fewyears ago where the government
wanted people to lower their useof energy in the evenings, and
so they promoted the use ofcompact fluorescent lighting,
and of course, they just gavethem away.
(18:07):
Right, okay, come, get yourlamps so that you pay less in
energy.
And it did work in that sense.
But it also backfired in thesense that people didn't like
the quality of the light thatthey introduced into their homes
.
So we have to look at streetlighting and community lighting
in the same way, right?
It's not just about savingenergy that they introduce into
their homes, so we have to lookat street lighting and community
lighting in the same way, right?
It's not just about savingenergy you can still do that,
(18:29):
right, by shifting to LEDs butwe also need to look at LEDs as
this source that has manydifferent characteristics that
we have to regulate.
We need to look at the colortemperature.
You need to look at theavailability of the blue
spectrum.
We need to look at thedistribution of the light,
(18:50):
whether it is full cutoff orhalf cutoff.
There's so many different itemsthat we have to look at.
Also, the dimming levels, likethe examples that I showed in
Tucson, right, because at theend of the day, we're going from
a legacy lamp that is not sosmart to a lamp that has the
(19:12):
ability to be smart right, andwe can use that.
We can use that smart part ofthe LED lighting to go beyond,
just simply, energy savings.
But I do think, as you say,that the change in cities is
coming from that point of view.
I mean, after all, the carbonemissions is something that we
(19:34):
definitely need to take care of,but we always need to be
careful in how we move from oneextreme to the other.
Like I said, we always have tofind a balance.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I think that's a really great way, I think, to
end the Q&A, I guess after thepresentation.
So thank you again.
I'm sure that our audience willhave more questions, which I
guess they can come throughwhenever people want to comment.
That'll be great.
And yeah, thanks again, maria,for coming on to doing your
(20:09):
presentation for the virtuallighting design community.
At some point we will be havinga panel discussion with others
who have talked about a similartopic.
I mentioned a couple of them,but we also had Charles Stone
talk about dark sky and PaulinaVillalobos also talked about it.
(20:33):
So we might organize a paneland we, you know, at a time when
we come together and then wecan actually delve a little bit
more into what each of us havetalked about in those
presentations.
I think that would be anothergreat way to explore that topic
a bit more, if you're keen forthat.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, absolutely, that would be fantastic.
Yeah, I love it.
We can all bring our own littlepiece of knowledge into the
conversation Exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It's all about education.
I think, yeah, absolutely.
What you mentioned is theconversation it's all about
education.
I think that's what youmentioned is the key, all right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Well, thank you so much to you and to the VLDC.
I'm looking forward to more.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
some insight or inspiration thatyou can take away or perhaps
apply.
If you enjoyed this episode, itis always appreciated if you
could take a moment to share thepodcast with your peers and
friends or leave a review onyour favorite podcast app.
Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
(21:44):
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at vldcommunity
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Until next time.
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