How is our night sky changing, and what does it mean for our future? Join us in a compelling conversation with Ruskin Hartley, CEO of Dark Sky International, as we unravel the alarming increase in light pollution—by an astonishing 10% each year—and the profound consequences for our starry nights. At the Light Middle East 2024 event in Dubai, Ruskin sheds light on this growing crisis, comparing it to the more familiar issues of air and water pollution, and emphasizing its adverse effects on human health, wildlife, and natural habitats.
Discover the fascinating history and mission of Dark Sky International, a non-profit organization originally founded to protect astronomers from harmful lighting. Ruskin shares how their focus has since broadened to include the wider impacts on ecosystems and energy use. Dispelling the myth that more light equals safety, we explore how proper lighting can actually enhance visibility and security, and discuss effective ways to communicate the importance of dark skies to the uninitiated.
Experience the majesty of Kitt Peak in Arizona through Ruskin's personal anecdotes, illustrating the awe-inspiring power of truly dark skies. Learn about initiatives like the "lighting police movement," which aims to educate and raise awareness through examples of both effective and poor lighting. As we wrap up, we express our heartfelt thanks to our listeners, urging you to share the podcast, leave reviews, and revisit previous episodes for more enlightening insights from leaders in the field. Don't miss this illuminating discussion on preserving our natural nightscapes for generations to come.
Quote of the Day
“The solution isn’t to ask people to turn off all the lights, it’s to ask people to use light correctly. Shield it, point it down, dim it down. Unfortunately most people haven’t ever had that pointed out to them. When someone points out bad lighting, you will see it everywhere you go.” — Ruskin Hartley
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Dark sky and the impact of light pollution is now
part of the dialogue amongstthe light and design community.
It's not on every project, it'sprobably not on the minds of
every designer, but the factthat we're here at the start of
2024, that it's part of thediscussion in a major show like
this, shows that we have madeconsiderable progress,
notwithstanding, we have a longway to go.
Over a 12-year period, lightpollution, the brightening of
(00:23):
the night sky, had been changingevery year by 10% per year
Every year, 10% Every year.
So if you put it in context,over an eight-year period the
night sky brightness has doubledand over.
You know my son I've mentioned.
My son is turning 17 this year.
And essentially it means thesky that he was born under.
If you go back to the samelocation today, you will see
(00:44):
half as many stars in the skytoday, which is a tremendous
change, notwithstanding all theother changes going on in the
world.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome back to the Virtual Lighting Design
Community Podcast, a globalplatform that empowers, inspires
, educates and connects thelighting design community.
This podcast is brought to youby our premium supporters Aero
Hospitality Lighting, creativeLighting Asia, erco, the Signify
Lighting Academy and PhilixLighting.
Today, we present an exclusiveinterview conducted by Katia
(01:19):
Kolovea, co-founder of thevirtual lighting design
community, with Ruskin Hartley,the CEO of Dark Sky
International.
The interview took place at theLight Middle East 2024 event in
Dubai earlier this year.
Our special guest has over 20years of experience working in
conservation and is now leadingDark Sky International, which is
at the forefront of the missionto preserve the night globally
(01:39):
by addressing light pollution.
During the conversation, ruskinhighlighted the far-reaching
impacts of artificial light as aform of pollution, likening it
to air and water pollution.
He also explored how lightpollution affects human health,
the natural behaviors ofwildlife and their habitats,
shedding light on the criticalimportance of protecting our
dark night skies.
There's an evolving movement toprotect the night from light
(02:00):
pollution, with Ruskin drawingattention to how individuals and
organizations can contribute tothese efforts.
Let's now go to theconversation and hear from Katia
Kolovea and Ruskin Harley.
Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Hello everyone.
I'm Katia Kolovea for from theVirtualized Zen community, and
we are here for another seriesof interviews at the Light
Middle East Show in Dubai.
I'm delighted to have with mehere Raskin Hartley from Dark
Sky International.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to be here with us.
It's wonderful to be here.
We have lots of things to talkabout, but before we do that, I
would like to ask you tointroduce yourself to our
(02:49):
audience.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
For Ruskin Hartley.
For the last five years, I'vebeen running Dark Sky
International, formerly theInternational Dark Sky
Association, a non-profitorganization based in Tucson,
arizona, with advocates andvolunteers around the world.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Fantastic.
So lots of questions, but Iwill start from your role here
in the show.
You are a speaker you talkedabout in the panel of the dark
sky and raising awareness aboutthe importance of dark skies,
and it was a very interestingpanel.
I was there and I was able tolisten to the different
(03:25):
presentations from differentviewpoints.
But I would like you to sharefirst your insights and what you
felt during this panel likebeing surrounded by lighting
designers who are actually usinglight, and so I would like to
start with that point tointroduce what Dark Sky
(03:47):
International is advocating andtalking about.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, one of the great things about being in this
show we're surrounded byhundreds of lighting vendors
selling good, bad andindifferent products, and
lighting designers coming fromall over the region and all over
the world, and it was reallyclear actually from the opening
discussions that preceded ourpanel discussion that dark sky
and the impact of lightpollution is now part of the
dialogue amongst the lightingdesign community.
(04:12):
It's not on every project, it'sprobably not in the minds of
every designer, but the factthat we're here the start of
2024, that it's part of thediscussion in a major show like
this shows that we have madeconsiderable progress.
Yeah, in a major show like thisshows that we have made
considerable progress.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Notwithstanding, we have a long way to go.
Definitely, definitely, becauseyou shared some insights and I
think it will be really great tobe mentioned here as well.
You shared about somestatistics that how quickly the
light pollution is evolving, socould you please repeat that, so
to quote you correctly and nottry to make it up.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, we have known for a long period of time that
light pollution is growing andwe knew from satellite imagery
and we thought Best estimate isgrowing maybe two or three
percent per year.
There was a study that came outin science actually almost a
year ago to the day, based uponsome crowdsource data where they
had people around the worldhave been going out and really
literally counting stars andusing the number of stars they
(05:06):
could count in a constellationlike Orion or one of those,
looking at those trends overtime and it can be used as a
proxy for what's happening tothe brightening of the night sky
.
And what they found and whatthey published one year ago
today is that over the last 12years, over a 12-year period,
light pollution and thebrightening of the night sky had
(05:27):
been changing every year by 10%per year.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Every year 10%.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So, to put it in context, over an eight-year
period the night sky brightnesshad doubled.
My son I've mentioned my son isturning 17 this year you
mentioned your son.
And essentially it means thesky that he was born under.
If you go back to the samelocation today, you will see
half as many stars in the skytoday, which is a tremendous
change, notwithstanding all theother changes going on in the
(05:53):
world today.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, this actually really ties very well with what
I want to talk about now here,which is like, maybe first we
start, because maybe some peopledon't know what Dark Sky
International is doing.
So you mentioned that it's anon-profit organization, but I
(06:14):
would like you to also touch thefact that you have volunteers
in different parts of the worldtalking and raising awareness
about darkness.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
so to make the transition of where I want to
take it, and I think the historyof our organization is also
emblematic of the issue, howthis issue has evolved and our
understanding of this issue hasevolved.
It was founded in Arizona backin I think it was 1987, 1988, by
two astronomers, a professionalastronomer and amateur
astronomer, coming together anddiscussing what was going on in
(06:43):
the city of Tucson and how thegrowth of the city and the
growth of, let's face it badlighting in the city was
impacting both the professionalastronomers and also the amateur
astronomers.
And they aligned around thesolution that the solution
wasn't to ask people to turn offall the lights.
Their solution was to askpeople to use light correctly,
to shield it, to point it down,to dim it down, and really that
(07:08):
philosophy and that approach iskept with us today.
The evolution over the last 30plus years has really been an
evolution of an organized 30plus years.
Since 88.
So what are we coming up to?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
40 years, Wow fantastic.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I mean, the evolution has really been an organization
that was primarily run by andfocused on astronomy and our
ability to see the stars, whichis incredible and awe-inspiring
To one.
Today, that is much moretalking about all of the other
impacts, like pollution, theimpact it's having on our
ecosystems, on our wildlife, theimpact it's having on human
(07:42):
health.
It's the embodiment of waste.
You can save the planet.
You can combat climate changeand help save the planet by
using less energy.
You can also use it.
Turning down a light has along-term impact of losing, yet
using less energy it has animmediate impact of removing
that source of pollutant fromthe sky.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Absolutely.
And also yesterday you usedthis very good reference of
People outside of the industry,the general public, as I really
like using this terminologyanyway they don't really
consider, they don't reallyunderstand how, indeed, when the
light is pointing up or doingall the things that it shouldn't
(08:24):
, it's polluting the sky and, ofcourse, it's our responsibility
as professionals to talk aboutit and try to educate it and
raise awareness.
But you use this image becausepeople think that more light
means more safe, more safeenvironment, which is not true,
and you use this reference ofhow light is actually blinding
(08:46):
you.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think most people, if they've watched
the old movies, know when yougo into the be interviewed by
the police officers, the firstthing they do is they take the
light and they shine it in youreyes so that you really can't
see anything else.
And really that's what we'redoing in so many places around
our cities and homes, and theimage that we share and it's an
image that really, I think, haspeople sit up and take notice
(09:08):
and begin to understand it is.
It's a simple image of aresidential home, single family
home in the US, with a brightporch light lighting the side
path and there's a gate in thedistance.
And then one image on the left,the sort of before you can see
the bright glare and you can seethe gate and not much else.
And then the person taking thephoto takes, very simply, just
(09:30):
putting the light to shield theglare from the light and
suddenly you can see that whatpops out there's someone coming
towards you and I think that ona visceral level just helps
people break down this messagethat actually more light doesn't
make us safe.
What makes us safer is actuallya better use of light, Of light
and using light with care andrestraint to create those
(09:51):
contrasts that enables us to see.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
This really links very, very nicely to the next
thing that I would like to askyou, which is how do you, as
you're asking, serving with yourfamily, members, friends or,
like you say, I'm running thisorganization?
This is what I do Like.
(10:16):
How do you communicate to themwhy they should care about light
pollution?
Because the sky to see the sky.
I have done many conversationswith people like well, I never
saw the sky, the dark sky, so Idon't really understand what I'm
missing because I haven't seenit and I'm trying to find ways.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's why I'm asking how do you use Well, I think
for many people I'll speakgenerally and then I'll speak
specifically about my family.
I think generally for people,everyone has a different life
history and different experienceand there are different things
that they care about.
Some people care aboutmigrating birds.
Some people maybe they live onthe beach and maybe they're
fortunate to live on the GulfCoast and there's turtles there.
(10:54):
Maybe there's people who areenamored by space and they want
to see it.
So there's so many points ofconnection, or just the basics,
that someone cares about thefuture of the planet or they
care about creating welcomingspaces for their community so
they can go outside and enjoyeach other's company after night
.
But those are all points ofconnection to discuss quality
(11:17):
lighting and light pollution.
Now the specifics of my family.
I grew up in a family we grew upoutdoors whenever we can, when
it wasn't raining in the UK, andmy parents are design
professionals.
They're architects and urbanplanners and it's been
interesting, since I've joinedDark Sky and started to learn
about this, how I've been ableto bring that knowledge to them
and that awareness.
And they're like you know what?
(11:37):
We've been designing buildingsfor the last 30 or 40 years,
thinking about large-scalecities, and we've never trained
on this, we didn't get thetraining.
So their advocacy to me is youneed to make this stuff simple
and accessible to, yes, thedesign community, but the
broader community at large.
It's nice for me.
My parents, coincidentally,live up in northwest Britain in
(12:00):
what in the last few yearsactually became a dark sky
reserve oh wow, the OrchardalesDark Sky Reserve.
So now they feel this addedresponsibility.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
To preserve that.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
To preserve it and do it responsibly, and then talk
to their neighbors and theircommunity and communicate
exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's like a chain how we can work together I love
that precious shared resourceand that was my next question
actually, because you said thatyou are living in arizona and
there is where the organizationstarted and my question was like
have you experienced the darksky?
Yeah, I was fortunate.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Actually my first week moving to Arizona to take
this job, I was taken out toKitt Peak.
It's a mountain about an houroutside Tucson, a little bit
less, and it's where the USNational Observatory is, the
National Optical Observatory.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I've never been, so it's on my bucket list.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It's a world-class observatory and it's there for a
reason.
It's there because thesouthwest is very dry, the skies
are very dark and it wasactually the presence of that
observatory that has encouragedTucson to use restraint in its
lighting over time.
But I remember going out therethat first week.
We went out before sunset andwe watched out before sunset and
we watched the sunset and wewatched the stars starting to
(13:14):
come out.
And again, I'm not anastronomer.
I know basic constellations andat some point, as it's getting
dark, and say oh, I know thatconstellation, I know this, I
can identify.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I can identify like a lion's coming out.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
But then, as the evening wore on and as the sun
dropped further below thehorizon, more and more and more
stars came, and, in fact, theend.
There's so many stars that havecome out that you've lost the
familiarity of thoseconstellations.
But to be out under that starwith the Milky Way and the stars
overhead.
People describe this sense ofawe, and it's true.
(13:48):
I mean it makes you feel small,it makes you feel humble, it
makes you realize our.
It makes you feel humble, itmakes you realize that our
relationship to the universe andfor many people, myself
included is something that sortof stays with you for the rest
of your life.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
You say that and I really go back to 2013.
I think that's the one and onlytime in my life so far that I
experienced exactly this feelingand I was in a Greek island, in
Anafi, in in Greece, where wewent, we hike in a in a church
and we stayed there overnight.
We slept there and I had thisfeeling that I don't want to
(14:22):
fall asleep, like I was lookingup and I was feeling that the,
the stars are coming to.
I don't know to take me withthat.
I don't know to take me with it.
I don't know Like.
It was an incredible emotionand I'm like, oh my God, like if
you have experienced it once,you can really understand why we
are fighting for, and we arereally amongst the first
(14:43):
generation to really lose thatconnection.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I mean, even 50, 60 years ago you talked to people
you know who had the opportunityto you know grow up outside the
suburbs in Chicago or maybeLondon or maybe Athens.
At that time, yes, thepopulation was smaller, our
cities were smaller and therewas less light in them.
People even close to urbanareas would have that experience
.
Leave aside people growing up100 years ago, when really
(15:07):
before the widespread use ofmodern light.
Really, that connection anddirect experience of the cosmos
is really part of what makes ushuman.
It's something that we've lost.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Wow, that's very strong and I think it's a very
good thing to really continuetalking, raising awareness.
I would ask you aboutvirtualizing community and how
much you know us, but the DarkSky International is already a
partner and we are trying tocreate links and share what you
guys are doing and raiseawareness to our community.
(15:40):
So would you like to share afew words on that?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I think the engagement of Dark Sky with the
lighting design community andother communities is absolutely
critical.
To continue this work.
I think the sad reality is mostprojects involving lighting
with the lighting designcommunity and other communities
is absolutely critical tocontinue this work.
I think the sad reality is mostprojects involving lighting do
not involve a lighting designer.
You mentioned that.
I mean someone told me this isnot chapter and verse but maybe
4% or 5% of projects involving alight involve a lighting
designer.
The vast majority of projectsare a distributor or a builder
(16:09):
or a homeowner going down to thestore buying a wall pack or
something because they feel likethey need light there.
And so I think it has come uponus to come together and every
opportunity we can to sort ofeducate people about the
difference between good and badlighting.
And again, this is not aboutdenying ourselves access to
light, this is about denyingourselves access to bad light.
(16:30):
And unfortunately most peoplehaven't ever had that pointed
out to them.
When someone points out a badlight to you, you will see them
everywhere you go.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
You know I wasn't really planning to bring this up
, but I'm going to mention it.
We had like a brief discussion,but maybe for the audience that
I started exactly for thatreason, the lighting police
movement, which is aninternational platform to raise
awareness about that by usingbad examples and good examples
and do like.
I get messages from people frommy community that they're like
(17:04):
Katia, you have destroyed mylife.
Because now, wherever I go, Ilook for the bad lights and if I
feel uncomfortable, I mighteven leave the restaurant and go
somewhere else and I'm like yes, that's the purpose to make
sure that all of the peoplearound us, little by little,
understanding what you'retalking about and then look for
the right light.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, and I think, the opportunity to collaborate,
to take people in your family,take people in your neighborhood
, take people in the community.
Just walk around town.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Walk around town, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Who gets to do that anymore?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Walk around that town and just observe, observe.
That's the magic word.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And you don't even have to tell them.
Just observe what you're seeing.
Basically, your eye will bedrawn to the glare of the bad
lights, and then you can talk tothem about what that's doing to
them on a level in terms ofreducing visibility, and then
use that as a segue to talkabout what that's doing to the
broader planet.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I think that's a perfect way to really sum it up
on this stage.
Obviously, we're going to besharing more and more content of
what you guys are doing Rightnow.
I see from lots of yourvolunteers around the world that
I could think about KeremAsfarulu from like now.
I think he's in Ireland.
He's in Ireland, from Ireland,doing projects completely like
(18:19):
following the structured way toreally see before and after, and
I would love this to be morelike using the VirtualEyes and
community platform to createlinks with all those different
volunteers and people that youhave around the world to
continue all together raisingawareness and do things
collectively.
We look forward to that, thankyou.
(18:39):
Thank you very much for beingpart of the platform and being
here with us.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
It was a pleasure honored to be with you thank you
so much, everyone, for watching.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
it was great a A great experience.
Actually, that was my lastinterview for this series, so
I'm honored to have this chanceand I'm looking forward for the
future collaborations with you.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Well, thanks for the time, thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Thank you, everyone, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
some insight or inspiration thatyou can take away or perhaps
apply.
If you enjoyed this episode, itis always appreciated if you
could take a moment to share thepodcast with your peers and
friends or leave a review onyour favorite podcast app.
Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
(19:26):
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at vldcommunity
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Till next time.
Dark sky and the impact of light pollution is now
part of the dialogue amongstthe light and design community.
It's not on every project, it'sprobably not on the minds of
every designer, but the factthat we're here at the start of
2024, that it's part of thediscussion in a major show like
this, shows that we have madeconsiderable progress,
notwithstanding, we have a longway to go.
Over a 12-year period, lightpollution, the brightening of
(00:23):
the night sky, had been changingevery year by 10% per year
Every year, 10% Every year.
So if you put it in context,over an eight-year period the
night sky brightness has doubledand over.
You know my son I've mentioned.
My son is turning 17 this year.
And essentially it means thesky that he was born under.
If you go back to the samelocation today, you will see
(00:44):
half as many stars in the skytoday, which is a tremendous
change, notwithstanding all theother changes going on in the
world.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome back to the Virtual Lighting Design
Community Podcast, a globalplatform that empowers, inspires
, educates and connects thelighting design community.
This podcast is brought to youby our premium supporters Aero
Hospitality Lighting, creativeLighting Asia, erco, the Signify
Lighting Academy and PhilixLighting.
Today, we present an exclusiveinterview conducted by Katia
(01:19):
Kolovea, co-founder of thevirtual lighting design
community, with Ruskin Hartley,the CEO of Dark Sky
International.
The interview took place at theLight Middle East 2024 event in
Dubai earlier this year.
Our special guest has over 20years of experience working in
conservation and is now leadingDark Sky International, which is
at the forefront of the missionto preserve the night globally
(01:39):
by addressing light pollution.
During the conversation, ruskinhighlighted the far-reaching
impacts of artificial light as aform of pollution, likening it
to air and water pollution.
He also explored how lightpollution affects human health,
the natural behaviors ofwildlife and their habitats,
shedding light on the criticalimportance of protecting our
dark night skies.
There's an evolving movement toprotect the night from light
(02:00):
pollution, with Ruskin drawingattention to how individuals and
organizations can contribute tothese efforts.
Let's now go to theconversation and hear from Katia
Kolovea and Ruskin Harley.
Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Hello everyone.
I'm Katia Kolovea for from theVirtualized Zen community, and
we are here for another seriesof interviews at the Light
Middle East Show in Dubai.
I'm delighted to have with mehere Raskin Hartley from Dark
Sky International.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to be here with us.
It's wonderful to be here.
We have lots of things to talkabout, but before we do that, I
would like to ask you tointroduce yourself to our
(02:49):
audience.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
For Ruskin Hartley.
For the last five years, I'vebeen running Dark Sky
International, formerly theInternational Dark Sky
Association, a non-profitorganization based in Tucson,
arizona, with advocates andvolunteers around the world.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Fantastic.
So lots of questions, but Iwill start from your role here
in the show.
You are a speaker you talkedabout in the panel of the dark
sky and raising awareness aboutthe importance of dark skies,
and it was a very interestingpanel.
I was there and I was able tolisten to the different
(03:25):
presentations from differentviewpoints.
But I would like you to sharefirst your insights and what you
felt during this panel likebeing surrounded by lighting
designers who are actually usinglight, and so I would like to
start with that point tointroduce what Dark Sky
(03:47):
International is advocating andtalking about.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, one of the great things about being in this
show we're surrounded byhundreds of lighting vendors
selling good, bad andindifferent products, and
lighting designers coming fromall over the region and all over
the world, and it was reallyclear actually from the opening
discussions that preceded ourpanel discussion that dark sky
and the impact of lightpollution is now part of the
dialogue amongst the lightingdesign community.
(04:12):
It's not on every project, it'sprobably not in the minds of
every designer, but the factthat we're here the start of
2024, that it's part of thediscussion in a major show like
this shows that we have madeconsiderable progress.
Yeah, in a major show like thisshows that we have made
considerable progress.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Notwithstanding, we have a long way to go.
Definitely, definitely, becauseyou shared some insights and I
think it will be really great tobe mentioned here as well.
You shared about somestatistics that how quickly the
light pollution is evolving, socould you please repeat that, so
to quote you correctly and nottry to make it up.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, we have known for a long period of time that
light pollution is growing andwe knew from satellite imagery
and we thought Best estimate isgrowing maybe two or three
percent per year.
There was a study that came outin science actually almost a
year ago to the day, based uponsome crowdsource data where they
had people around the worldhave been going out and really
literally counting stars andusing the number of stars they
(05:06):
could count in a constellationlike Orion or one of those,
looking at those trends overtime and it can be used as a
proxy for what's happening tothe brightening of the night sky
.
And what they found and whatthey published one year ago
today is that over the last 12years, over a 12-year period,
light pollution and thebrightening of the night sky had
(05:27):
been changing every year by 10%per year.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Every year 10%.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So, to put it in context, over an eight-year
period the night sky brightnesshad doubled.
My son I've mentioned my son isturning 17 this year you
mentioned your son.
And essentially it means thesky that he was born under.
If you go back to the samelocation today, you will see
half as many stars in the skytoday, which is a tremendous
change, notwithstanding all theother changes going on in the
(05:53):
world today.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, this actually really ties very well with what
I want to talk about now here,which is like, maybe first we
start, because maybe some peopledon't know what Dark Sky
International is doing.
So you mentioned that it's anon-profit organization, but I
(06:14):
would like you to also touch thefact that you have volunteers
in different parts of the worldtalking and raising awareness
about darkness.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
so to make the transition of where I want to
take it, and I think the historyof our organization is also
emblematic of the issue, howthis issue has evolved and our
understanding of this issue hasevolved.
It was founded in Arizona backin I think it was 1987, 1988, by
two astronomers, a professionalastronomer and amateur
astronomer, coming together anddiscussing what was going on in
(06:43):
the city of Tucson and how thegrowth of the city and the
growth of, let's face it badlighting in the city was
impacting both the professionalastronomers and also the amateur
astronomers.
And they aligned around thesolution that the solution
wasn't to ask people to turn offall the lights.
Their solution was to askpeople to use light correctly,
to shield it, to point it down,to dim it down, and really that
(07:08):
philosophy and that approach iskept with us today.
The evolution over the last 30plus years has really been an
evolution of an organized 30plus years.
Since 88.
So what are we coming up to?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
40 years, Wow fantastic.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I mean, the evolution has really been an organization
that was primarily run by andfocused on astronomy and our
ability to see the stars, whichis incredible and awe-inspiring
To one.
Today, that is much moretalking about all of the other
impacts, like pollution, theimpact it's having on our
ecosystems, on our wildlife, theimpact it's having on human
(07:42):
health.
It's the embodiment of waste.
You can save the planet.
You can combat climate changeand help save the planet by
using less energy.
You can also use it.
Turning down a light has along-term impact of losing, yet
using less energy it has animmediate impact of removing
that source of pollutant fromthe sky.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Absolutely.
And also yesterday you usedthis very good reference of
People outside of the industry,the general public, as I really
like using this terminologyanyway they don't really
consider, they don't reallyunderstand how, indeed, when the
light is pointing up or doingall the things that it shouldn't
(08:24):
, it's polluting the sky and, ofcourse, it's our responsibility
as professionals to talk aboutit and try to educate it and
raise awareness.
But you use this image becausepeople think that more light
means more safe, more safeenvironment, which is not true,
and you use this reference ofhow light is actually blinding
(08:46):
you.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think most people, if they've watched
the old movies, know when yougo into the be interviewed by
the police officers, the firstthing they do is they take the
light and they shine it in youreyes so that you really can't
see anything else.
And really that's what we'redoing in so many places around
our cities and homes, and theimage that we share and it's an
image that really, I think, haspeople sit up and take notice
(09:08):
and begin to understand it is.
It's a simple image of aresidential home, single family
home in the US, with a brightporch light lighting the side
path and there's a gate in thedistance.
And then one image on the left,the sort of before you can see
the bright glare and you can seethe gate and not much else.
And then the person taking thephoto takes, very simply, just
(09:30):
putting the light to shield theglare from the light and
suddenly you can see that whatpops out there's someone coming
towards you and I think that ona visceral level just helps
people break down this messagethat actually more light doesn't
make us safe.
What makes us safer is actuallya better use of light, Of light
and using light with care andrestraint to create those
(09:51):
contrasts that enables us to see.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
This really links very, very nicely to the next
thing that I would like to askyou, which is how do you, as
you're asking, serving with yourfamily, members, friends or,
like you say, I'm running thisorganization?
This is what I do Like.
(10:16):
How do you communicate to themwhy they should care about light
pollution?
Because the sky to see the sky.
I have done many conversationswith people like well, I never
saw the sky, the dark sky, so Idon't really understand what I'm
missing because I haven't seenit and I'm trying to find ways.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's why I'm asking how do you use Well, I think
for many people I'll speakgenerally and then I'll speak
specifically about my family.
I think generally for people,everyone has a different life
history and different experienceand there are different things
that they care about.
Some people care aboutmigrating birds.
Some people maybe they live onthe beach and maybe they're
fortunate to live on the GulfCoast and there's turtles there.
(10:54):
Maybe there's people who areenamored by space and they want
to see it.
So there's so many points ofconnection, or just the basics,
that someone cares about thefuture of the planet or they
care about creating welcomingspaces for their community so
they can go outside and enjoyeach other's company after night
.
But those are all points ofconnection to discuss quality
(11:17):
lighting and light pollution.
Now the specifics of my family.
I grew up in a family we grew upoutdoors whenever we can, when
it wasn't raining in the UK, andmy parents are design
professionals.
They're architects and urbanplanners and it's been
interesting, since I've joinedDark Sky and started to learn
about this, how I've been ableto bring that knowledge to them
and that awareness.
And they're like you know what?
(11:37):
We've been designing buildingsfor the last 30 or 40 years,
thinking about large-scalecities, and we've never trained
on this, we didn't get thetraining.
So their advocacy to me is youneed to make this stuff simple
and accessible to, yes, thedesign community, but the
broader community at large.
It's nice for me.
My parents, coincidentally,live up in northwest Britain in
(12:00):
what in the last few yearsactually became a dark sky
reserve oh wow, the OrchardalesDark Sky Reserve.
So now they feel this addedresponsibility.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
To preserve that.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
To preserve it and do it responsibly, and then talk
to their neighbors and theircommunity and communicate
exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's like a chain how we can work together I love
that precious shared resourceand that was my next question
actually, because you said thatyou are living in arizona and
there is where the organizationstarted and my question was like
have you experienced the darksky?
Yeah, I was fortunate.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Actually my first week moving to Arizona to take
this job, I was taken out toKitt Peak.
It's a mountain about an houroutside Tucson, a little bit
less, and it's where the USNational Observatory is, the
National Optical Observatory.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I've never been, so it's on my bucket list.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It's a world-class observatory and it's there for a
reason.
It's there because thesouthwest is very dry, the skies
are very dark and it wasactually the presence of that
observatory that has encouragedTucson to use restraint in its
lighting over time.
But I remember going out therethat first week.
We went out before sunset andwe watched out before sunset and
we watched the sunset and wewatched the stars starting to
(13:14):
come out.
And again, I'm not anastronomer.
I know basic constellations andat some point, as it's getting
dark, and say oh, I know thatconstellation, I know this, I
can identify.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I can identify like a lion's coming out.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
But then, as the evening wore on and as the sun
dropped further below thehorizon, more and more and more
stars came, and, in fact, theend.
There's so many stars that havecome out that you've lost the
familiarity of thoseconstellations.
But to be out under that starwith the Milky Way and the stars
overhead.
People describe this sense ofawe, and it's true.
(13:48):
I mean it makes you feel small,it makes you feel humble, it
makes you realize our.
It makes you feel humble, itmakes you realize that our
relationship to the universe andfor many people, myself
included is something that sortof stays with you for the rest
of your life.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
You say that and I really go back to 2013.
I think that's the one and onlytime in my life so far that I
experienced exactly this feelingand I was in a Greek island, in
Anafi, in in Greece, where wewent, we hike in a in a church
and we stayed there overnight.
We slept there and I had thisfeeling that I don't want to
(14:22):
fall asleep, like I was lookingup and I was feeling that the,
the stars are coming to.
I don't know to take me withthat.
I don't know to take me with it.
I don't know Like.
It was an incredible emotionand I'm like, oh my God, like if
you have experienced it once,you can really understand why we
are fighting for, and we arereally amongst the first
(14:43):
generation to really lose thatconnection.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I mean, even 50, 60 years ago you talked to people
you know who had the opportunityto you know grow up outside the
suburbs in Chicago or maybeLondon or maybe Athens.
At that time, yes, thepopulation was smaller, our
cities were smaller and therewas less light in them.
People even close to urbanareas would have that experience
.
Leave aside people growing up100 years ago, when really
(15:07):
before the widespread use ofmodern light.
Really, that connection anddirect experience of the cosmos
is really part of what makes ushuman.
It's something that we've lost.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Wow, that's very strong and I think it's a very
good thing to really continuetalking, raising awareness.
I would ask you aboutvirtualizing community and how
much you know us, but the DarkSky International is already a
partner and we are trying tocreate links and share what you
guys are doing and raiseawareness to our community.
(15:40):
So would you like to share afew words on that?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I think the engagement of Dark Sky with the
lighting design community andother communities is absolutely
critical.
To continue this work.
I think the sad reality is mostprojects involving lighting
with the lighting designcommunity and other communities
is absolutely critical tocontinue this work.
I think the sad reality is mostprojects involving lighting do
not involve a lighting designer.
You mentioned that.
I mean someone told me this isnot chapter and verse but maybe
4% or 5% of projects involving alight involve a lighting
designer.
The vast majority of projectsare a distributor or a builder
(16:09):
or a homeowner going down to thestore buying a wall pack or
something because they feel likethey need light there.
And so I think it has come uponus to come together and every
opportunity we can to sort ofeducate people about the
difference between good and badlighting.
And again, this is not aboutdenying ourselves access to
light, this is about denyingourselves access to bad light.
(16:30):
And unfortunately most peoplehaven't ever had that pointed
out to them.
When someone points out a badlight to you, you will see them
everywhere you go.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
You know I wasn't really planning to bring this up
, but I'm going to mention it.
We had like a brief discussion,but maybe for the audience that
I started exactly for thatreason, the lighting police
movement, which is aninternational platform to raise
awareness about that by usingbad examples and good examples
and do like.
I get messages from people frommy community that they're like
(17:04):
Katia, you have destroyed mylife.
Because now, wherever I go, Ilook for the bad lights and if I
feel uncomfortable, I mighteven leave the restaurant and go
somewhere else and I'm like yes, that's the purpose to make
sure that all of the peoplearound us, little by little,
understanding what you'retalking about and then look for
the right light.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, and I think, the opportunity to collaborate,
to take people in your family,take people in your neighborhood
, take people in the community.
Just walk around town.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Walk around town, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Who gets to do that anymore?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Walk around that town and just observe, observe.
That's the magic word.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And you don't even have to tell them.
Just observe what you're seeing.
Basically, your eye will bedrawn to the glare of the bad
lights, and then you can talk tothem about what that's doing to
them on a level in terms ofreducing visibility, and then
use that as a segue to talkabout what that's doing to the
broader planet.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I think that's a perfect way to really sum it up
on this stage.
Obviously, we're going to besharing more and more content of
what you guys are doing Rightnow.
I see from lots of yourvolunteers around the world that
I could think about KeremAsfarulu from like now.
I think he's in Ireland.
He's in Ireland, from Ireland,doing projects completely like
(18:19):
following the structured way toreally see before and after, and
I would love this to be morelike using the VirtualEyes and
community platform to createlinks with all those different
volunteers and people that youhave around the world to
continue all together raisingawareness and do things
collectively.
We look forward to that, thankyou.
(18:39):
Thank you very much for beingpart of the platform and being
here with us.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
It was a pleasure honored to be with you thank you
so much, everyone, for watching.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
it was great a A great experience.
Actually, that was my lastinterview for this series, so
I'm honored to have this chanceand I'm looking forward for the
future collaborations with you.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Well, thanks for the time, thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Thank you, everyone, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
some insight or inspiration thatyou can take away or perhaps
apply.
If you enjoyed this episode, itis always appreciated if you
could take a moment to share thepodcast with your peers and
friends or leave a review onyour favorite podcast app.
Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
(19:26):
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at vldcommunity
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Till next time.
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