June 30, 2025 • 40 mins
The workplace mental health crisis is costing American businesses billions while leaving employees struggling without adequate support. This eye-opening conversation with Teresa Lampl, CEO of the Ohio Council of Behavioral Health and Family Services Providers, and Ashley Matthews, VP of Tax for Crane Group and Maryhaven Board Member, reveals the shocking reality behind mental health access in today's workforce.
When one in four adults experience mental health conditions annually but only half can access care, both human potential and business productivity suffer. The statistics are staggering: $300 billion lost annually from GDP due to untreated conditions, and 53% of working parents missing work monthly for their children's mental health needs. Beyond numbers, both guests share powerful personal journeys that highlight why this issue transcends business metrics.
The discussion also tackles the evolving stigma around mental health and the urgent need to treat brain health with the same priority as physical health. While social media has helped normalize conversations, persistent stereotypes still prevent many from seeking help. By valuing mental health as essential health and expanding access to the full continuum of care, businesses can create healthier workplaces while improving their bottom line.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches mental health? Listen now to discover practical strategies that benefit both your employees and your business success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to our June episode of Voices for Suicide
Prevention.
As we like to say, ourconversations are real talk,
real honest, real life.
I'm Stephanie Bucher.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
And I'm Scott Light.
We are so pleased this month towelcome two dynamic leaders
from both the corporate andadvocacy space to talk about
mental and behavioral health inthe workplace.
What a dynamic subject, and boy.
This is really nuanced too, andwe're really going to get into
it here with our two guests.
So let me introduce you to themright now.
Teresa Lample is CEO of theOhio Council of Behavioral
(00:40):
Health and Family ServicesProviders, and Ashley Matthews
is Vice president of tax for thecrane group.
Welcome to you both.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Thank you for having us Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Teresa, let's go ahead and get started with our
conversation.
Most recent report on growing ahealthy workforce in Ohio from
the Ohio Council, and addressinga workforce crisis at the same
time.
So lots of data pulling in theinformation.
The demand for mental healthand substance use services,
(01:11):
unrelenting, we're talking onein four US adults reporting
experiencing a mental healthcondition each year.
And, unfortunately, theavailability of treatment and
support and help not keeping upleaving many without access to
that kind of care.
And so help us understand fromthe issue first and challenges
(01:32):
here in Ohio.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure.
So when we think about theimpact of mental health and
substance use, we know that it'simpacting it one in four, as
you just said.
Substance use we know that it'simpacting it one in four, as
you just said, and that meansbasically every family at some
point in time is dealing witheither a mental health or a
substance use condition.
Yet when we look at thebehavioral health workforce, one
of the things we find is accessis incredibly challenging, and
(01:58):
the data from the Centers forDisease Control tells us that at
any given time, as an adult,only about 50% of adults can
access mental health care andfor kids it's about 44% and,
unfortunately, in the substanceuse space it's about 23%.
So we have significantchallenges, even though we have
incredible demand, and there'slots of reasons.
(02:19):
One was we still have issueswith stigma and not everybody's
going to be willing to accesscare.
But our biggest challenge is,frankly, that the demand for
care has far outpaced the numberof people available for care,
and some of that is due to it'sa complicated issue.
It's been growing over time.
We've known for about the lasttwo decades that we have had a
(02:42):
growing workforce shortage inhealthcare, but then
specifically in behavioralhealthcare, because we don't
always treat mental health andsubstance use as health
conditions.
So what's really really workingto reset that?
Brain health is essentialhealth and I think during the
pandemic we finally reallyrealized how important mental
health is to overall health andwell-being.
(03:04):
So there's been this concertedeffort of late to increase the
behavioral health workforce.
But we're challenged.
It's hard work.
It's 24-7, 365.
We humans are very human-y andvery you know our issues don't
happen neatly in an eight tofive schedule.
So it's being able andavailable.
Many of the jobs require amaster's degree or higher in
(03:26):
training.
Yet the average pay for aperson with a master's degree is
around $60,000 to $65,000.
And if you don't have amaster's degree you're making
somewhere in the $30,000 to$35,000.
So you end up then with lots ofacademic debt which becomes a
deterrent to going into the jobs, and so low pay is a challenge.
Plus then just the burden ofthe work.
(03:48):
And while we've made efforts oflate to make some investments
to encourage people to come intothe professions, what we find
is the workforce shortages havegotten even worse.
Even in three years we saw a10% increase in the number of
health professional shortagesfor mental health care in the
state of Ohio.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
So we do see, in the substance use disorder mental
health treatment area, access tocare is incredibly important.
You know we go through stageswhere we're turning folks away
and then you know you go throughseasons where our beds aren't
full, and so we find that it'sreally hard to hit that high
(04:33):
demand, that peak season, whenfolks are ready for care.
We just don't have the room forthem for care.
And so we at Mary Haven arealways looking at ways that we
can expand our inpatient beds,outpatient services, partnering
with other organizations, andalways looking at that continuum
(04:53):
of care.
And how do we make sure thatfolks that we can work with can
continue on their journey afterthey leave us?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And I think a piece that plays into that when you're
an employer, you know reallythinking about the employer side
of this is we.
You know employers offer ahealth insurance benefit and one
of the challenges in access isdoes the benefit actually cover
with the service that theindividual needs?
Most insurance benefits don'tpay for preventative mental
(05:20):
health or substance use care.
You get one well visit and youmay get a question or two about
are you depressed or are youanxious or using substances, but
that's the full extent.
And then accessing servicesthrough your typical private
insurance is really challengingand may not cover the continuum
of care that Ashley was justtalking about.
(05:42):
It may cover individualcounseling or a group session or
maybe a hospitalization, butnothing in between.
And that's one of the bigchallenges that we face is
helping people understand whattheir benefit is and then making
sure that we are treating thebrain and diseases of the brain
the same way we treat diseasesof the heart and the lungs, and
(06:02):
so it's actually that's aroundinsurance parity, that's what
it's called and making sure thateverybody understands that your
insurance company is obligatedto treat a mental health and a
substance use condition the sameway they would treat a physical
health condition, like if youhad a heart attack or a broken
bone.
But many times we find thataccess isn't the same and the
(06:22):
availability of care is fardifferent and the wait list much
longer.
Which is partially what'sdriven the workforce shortages
is we don't have equity in howthey pay for the services and
the disease conditions, letalone then the practitioners
delivering that care.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
And I think the data is there to show that
preventative care and mentalhealth, you know, increases
positive outcomes is good forbusiness, right?
We have folks that are leavingmissing work, you know, so many
hours per week because of theseillnesses and I think health
insurers are really good atexplaining to businesses.
(07:02):
You know, if you add thispreventative care measure, if
you do this as a wellnessprogram, if you do XYZ, your
claims will go down.
You'll save some money.
Right, we're not good at that.
From a mental healthperspective.
We're not great at saying, hey,offer these preventative
programs for your employees,remove the barriers to care,
which is one thing that we do atCrane Group is, you know,
(07:23):
partnering with professionals toget sort of priority scheduling
or remove that weight that somany of us struggle with to get
in and see a mental healthprofessional, and those things
really do impact positiveoutcomes and, do you know,
reduce premiums and health carecosts.
(07:43):
But that's not a topic ofconversation that employers are
having with their healthinsurers on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, you really teed us up here, because Stephanie
and I found a few data pointshere, and why don't we click
through a few of these, ashley,to your point each year, the US
forfeits nearly 300 billion fromGDP from costs associated with
untreated mental health andsubstance use disorders.
(08:11):
And then we also found oneother statistic too, and I put a
big old asterisk beside thisone.
There was an Ohio StateUniversity study, and it found
that the opioid epidemic costOhio between $66 to 8.8 billion
a year.
That's about the same amount ofmoney that we spend on K
(08:33):
through 12 education.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Staggering.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Jump in, help us, help us flesh this out.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You know, when we found at Mary Haven that when an
individual is not treated forsubstance use disorder or a
mental health crisis, it's about15 K per individual rate.
And so that's kind of whatthese numbers are showing us
that it's a huge cost, um, andwith treatment, you know.
The other side of the coin isthey're more productive, right,
(09:00):
and about 42% more productivethan they would otherwise be had
they not been treated.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I've tried to think about this as opportunity loss
cost.
You know we think abouteverything we talk about,
particularly when it comes tofunding and state investment.
A lot in four people in yourworkforce, or one in four people
, are dealing, if not directly,with a family member.
One of the other statisticsthat also strikes me, and
(09:40):
probably because I'm a parentbut 53% of working families, a
parent misses a day of workevery single month just to
attend to their child's mental,emotional and behavioral health
needs.
We are seeing this growingcrisis of mental health,
depression, anxiety and, frankly, some early age substance use,
(10:00):
whether it's vaping or marijuana, alcohol use and we're starting
earlier and earlier.
And so how do we stop that?
How do we teach and prevententry into those?
But parents, that's a lot oftime that parents are missing
work.
We also know that, and that wasa study done here in Columbus
at Nationwide Children's thatfound that.
(10:22):
They also found that about 55%of parents report that their
productivity is less on a weeklybasis because they're having to
manage issues with their child,whether it's at school, whether
it's with an appointment, adoctor, a counselor.
And so we know there's thisgrowing impact because our
younger people, they're notafraid to talk about the mental
(10:44):
health challenges, and that'sgood.
We're overcoming the stigma,they're recognizing it and
they're asking for help in wayswe've not seen before, and so we
have all of this opportunity tomake a difference.
Yet it's having a cost on ourbusinesses and then it's a cost
to taxpayers as we're trying tofund these services, and
(11:05):
sometimes there's a cost shiftbecause what the private
insurance companies aren'tpaying for, somebody else is
making it up, whether it's aschool system, whether it's an
after-school program, whetherit's an employer saying, hey,
I'm going to offer this wellnessprogram because it's the right
thing to do for the people thatI care about and who are doing a
good job working for me.
Or we're dealing with unfundedservices.
(11:29):
So you're looking at Medicaidor private dollar having to make
it up.
So there's a lot that we couldbe investing that makes more
revenue and because we have ahealthy workforce.
So if we had a healthyworkforce, we'd be spending less
money on some of these services.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
If I could follow up on that with you, teresa.
So a lot of what ourorganization does, what your
organization does, is help toeducate and advocate on behalf
of some of these issues.
When we're talking to thosestakeholders, those policymakers
, I'm just curious, you don'thave to call out any names or
(12:11):
anything.
I'm just curious, the receptionthat you're getting when you're
bringing these types of thingsup to them.
Is that message getting through?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
So I think so.
I think that in the 20 yearsI've been doing advocacy at the
state and federal level, what Iwould say is when I started, we
used to have to explain whymental health mattered, and we
used to have to explain whymental health mattered, and now
we don't have to explain whymental health matters.
Now it's really.
We can have the conversationabout what's the cost savings.
(12:40):
When we look at prevention, forexample, we know that with kids
just a $602 investment in aprevention program in a school,
for example, by the time thatchild reaches the ages of 23, if
we've taught them good copingskills and resiliency and how to
manage basic challenges andfrustrations in life, we can
(13:02):
save almost $7,800 per child.
So it's big.
We know that an ounce ofprevention is worth a pound of
cure.
That's an old saying, but it'sso very true If we just teach
people some basic skills and wecan prevent entry into a longer
term episode or understand thatthey can get help earlier,
(13:26):
rather than waiting untilthey're deep into a depression
or so anxious that they're notfunctioning or using a substance
to the point it's causing majorproblems in their lives.
So we can now start having theseconversations around why things
like prevention matters.
We actually were asked in thelast General Assembly to put
together a report that says tellus what the cost savings is.
(13:48):
Because we want to take it tosome of our other conservative
partners and say look, thismatters.
And so we have seen someinvestment in prevention and we
do see that now that we'rehaving this conversation about
the cost.
And part of why we wanted toreally work on what is the
economic cost of this is becausewe know that there's data,
(14:11):
there's information that forevery dollar we spend in mental
health or substance use care,we're generating four in return
in either reduced health savingsor increased productivity.
So if you want to grow theeconomy, you have to have
healthy people.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You do Ashley to you with Stephanie's question from
the corporate side.
If you've got Acme Corporationthat comes to you and says, okay
, ashley, why should corporateAmerica jump in here and why
should we get to the tip of thespear when it comes to mental
health?
What would you say to thatcompany?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
I would say that it's not just a moral argument of
whether or not you shouldsupport your employees, it's
also an economic one.
And so all of the statistics,all of the things we've said
before, you know workforces ebband flow and similar to how
there are struggles findingmental health professionals,
(15:10):
there are struggles finding, youknow, skilled workers in all
areas.
So to me, it is one more goodfact for your company that can
encourage employees to come workfor you Supporting mental
health, having, you know,additional insurance over what's
required to help withpreventative care, to help with,
(15:32):
you know, counseling sessions,you know other types of stress
management or nutrition benefitsthat can help folks, you know,
really manage their holistichealth, which we know impacts
mental health significantly.
And so I would say, you knowit's about doing the right thing
(15:54):
and supporting your employees.
But when you do the right thingand support your employees,
it'll also help your bottom line.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Helps the bottom line and it helps retention.
You know, teresa, to your pointabout this younger generation.
They want that holisticapproach.
They and you know what they'llraise the volume about.
They want more PTO and theywant more time off there.
Well, you know, when they'rethere at work they're going to
put in the hours, they're goingto give you 150%, but away from
work they do want those services.
(16:21):
I'm glad they're vocal about it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Well, and I think that's the reciprocal value that
we're talking about, right, Imean, it's not.
You know, we've heard, and whenyou look at the data and I like
data so when you look at theoverall workforce, you know we
are still not at the same levelof productivity from a workforce
than we were prior to thepandemic and it's stubborn.
We're kind of at this like 63,64% and we cannot seem to
(16:45):
rebound and people don't realizethat what we lost during the
pandemic was, you know, it'sreally an impact from the mental
health side.
So you have people who diedfrom COVID and that was a huge
loss of people.
But the opiate overdoseepidemic we have lost hundreds
of thousands of people year overyear and those are people that
(17:08):
we lost from the workforce.
So general labor is strugglingto find workers because they
need a healthy workforce, but wedon't always think about giving
people a sick day when they'renot feeling mentally well or if
they're struggling with asubstance use condition.
We don't yet in all businessesthink of allowing people to use
(17:28):
that sick day unless it's aphysical health issue.
You look bad.
You've got a fever.
We can see it on your face.
You can see that you've had allthese physical symptoms or
you've struggled, You've had asurgery, you've got things that
we can physically see or systemsother than the brain that are
impacted, and it's like, oh yeah, take a sick day, but we still
(17:49):
have to normalize in all of ourbusinesses that you need to be
well, and wellness meansmentally well as well as
physically well, and I thinkthat's still a challenge that we
have to work through, becauseit is a reciprocal in the
workforce.
And then the challenge is,though I don't always have a
mental health professionalavailable when I'm not feeling
(18:12):
mentally well, and so how do wecreate the same opportunities
and pathways to access care,even short-term care, the same
way that we do with physicalhealth care?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Let's pivot just a little bit and talk about each
of your journeys to this work.
And, ashley, you are on theboard of Mary Haven, which has
served more than 350,000 peoplesince the early 1950s with
mental health and substance use.
What experience connected youto Mary Haven?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Well, substance use disorder impacted my life at a
very young age.
My father was in and out oftreatment my entire life, his
entire adult life, andunfortunately his battle ended
when he died by suicide at age36.
You know, when I started atCrane Group, I was coming up on
(19:07):
that 35, that 35, 36 year age,and it kind of puts things in
perspective, right, you can tryto put yourself in his shoes, or
what was he going through.
Or, man, my kids are reallyyoung.
I couldn't imagine thathappening.
And so it really the timingworked out well, because at
Crane Group there's a program wedo called Crane on Board, and
(19:29):
we really encourage employees toseek out a cause that they're
passionate about and thenparticipate with a non-profit in
some meaningful way.
So that may be joining a board,that may be joining a committee
first, that may be doing somevolunteer work, but we really
leave it up to the employee toreally decide where their
(19:50):
passion lies.
And so, given the firsthandexperience I had with the
struggle of substance usedisorder and mental illness from
seeing my father struggle, butI also had experience on how it
impacted my siblings and me andthe rest of my family, and so I
felt really strongly that Icould combine that personal
(20:11):
experience as well as myprofessional experience and make
a difference in this community.
I felt strongly that someonethat understands the client and
their journey and theirstruggles, not only inside
treatment but before treatmentand outside treatment, and how
do we ensure that our clientsare set up for success to
(20:33):
continue their sober journeyafter they leave us.
And so I felt really stronglythat I could participate and you
know I've had a great time, youknow, really working with the
team at Mary Haven justfurthering our mission, you know
, helping individuals leadhealthy lives free from
addiction and mental illness byproviding education, treatment
(20:57):
and support, and Mary Haven doesa great job at that and I'm
happy to support that mission.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Can I ask what year your dad died by suicide?
Speaker 4 (21:08):
2002.
That's not long ago, no.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That is not long ago.
And that is not long ago and Iknow we're going to get to this
a little bit later, but maybe wecan jump into it now in terms
of what have you both seen overthese last years, couple of
decades, with a very personalexperience for you, actually in
terms of the changing of thestigmas and the stereotypes
(21:30):
around mental health?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
The stigma is definitely changing and I think
it's great.
I am one of those people thatis not afraid to talk about my
experience, my personal journeywith mental illness, my family's
journey with mental illness.
I always wanna be that personthat speaks about it and maybe
give somebody else a littleconfidence to either speak about
(21:52):
it or go get help.
And so I personally, in mycircles whether it's my
professional circle, personalcircle make sure that I speak
about that when appropriate.
But I do think, as much associal media is really great,
social media can also have somedownsides.
But I do really respect whatsocial media has done for the
(22:17):
mental health field inencouraging people to talk about
it or seeing signs ofthemselves in another content
creator or video or TikTok thatsays, hey, maybe this isn't
normal, maybe this is somethingthat I could get treatment for
to feel better.
I definitely think theopportunities for treatment and
(22:38):
the resources are easier to findin that case, and I think we're
doing a better job through thesocial media of trying to meet
people where they are.
As you mentioned, you know, amental health crisis is an eight
to five, and so where can aperson get support?
And it's maybe they saw a videoon TikTok that linked them to
(23:01):
suicide prevention hotline orsomething else.
It really is an opportunity forpeople to say, hey, there's
people like me out here and Imay be having a crisis you know
crisis at like midnight on aTuesday.
I'm going to look at some ofthese videos, I'm going to see
that there is hope, I'm going tosee that there is help and then
maybe I'll call first thing thenext morning and make an
appointment.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I think, too, you know what's changed.
I remember when Prozac wasfirst introduced into the market
in the mid 1980s and it wasshocking that we actually might
have a medication that'savailable to treat depression,
and how we villainized it,frankly in the early mid 80s
(23:43):
about it was a problem, and nowwe were just depending on a
medication instead of justpulling ourselves up by our
bootstraps, because that wasalways.
You know the solution right,you just need to pray more, you
need to be a better person.
It's self, you know, it's aself problem, not a brain
problem.
And so I think now today, we dotalk about it more openly,
(24:06):
maybe too much, maybe.
Now people want you know theletters after their name I'm OCD
, I'm BPD, I'm, you know,depressed, I'm anxious, I have
schizophrenia as a badge ofhonor instead of you know the
same way, and so how do webalance that?
And I think some of that is thesocial media and the networking
(24:28):
, but we do talk about it.
You know, I have children whoare teenagers, and so we spend a
lot of time talking about ittoday, and they've both
struggled with mental healthissues and you know getting
access and what's that like andbeing able to talk about it and
talk about it openly and in allsettings, and figuring out how
(24:49):
do we continue to talk about itin a way that's productive and
not stereotyping.
And I think we've done a goodjob in some spaces around.
Talking about prevention andresiliency and coping is
(25:13):
something that is generationaland that we're still working
through.
And how is that different frombeing anxious or depressed?
When does substance use,getting into that misuse and
really being able to identifywhat's healthy versus unhealthy
those are still places thatwe're struggling, I think, in
our society and as we'venormalized marijuana use, what
does that mean?
(25:33):
You know to our, you know tothese generations whether you're
in, you know an older personwho remembers you know the 60s
and marijuana use and what's itlike today, which is very
different from what's available,versus a teen who may be
thinking about vaping, or youknow CBD or gummies, or what
(25:54):
does that look like?
So we still we've spanned andwe've grown in the way we think
about it and talk about it.
And so now it's how do we helppeople make healthy decisions
and understand their own riskfactors?
And I think that's a piece westill have more science to
uncover, which is how do we knowwho's going to be a person
that's likely to experience adepressive episode or super
(26:19):
serious anxiety or be morelikely to have a substance use
condition and be educated aboutyourself and your family history
because it does matter.
And then we have to let sciencecontinue to evolve so that we
really know how do we providebetter interventions and more
timely and more quickly get tothe right medications.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I have a standing offer and I don't say this to be
funny or flip, but I'm stillwaiting on somebody to come into
a conference room and go,instead of saying, hey guys, I'm
sorry I'm late, johnny brokehis arm and we had to go to the
ER Because that's how peoplewould say that.
Right, they would just say itjust like that.
But I'm still waiting on myfirst experience where somebody
(27:00):
just says hey guys, sorry, I'mlate, but Johnny was late to his
therapist appointment.
We were late to his therapistappointment this morning.
And to say it just like that,just like he broke his arm, and
the offer is as soon as thatcomes, I will take that person
out to whatever lunch, whateverthey want and again.
that's not to be flipped.
I just say that I bring it upto say we need to get to that
(27:22):
point.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, I mean, I found also in my experience, even
with my children now.
I've battled my own mentalillness since I was in my early
twenties.
But even you know a lot ofparents will seek it and want to
fix or help their childrenright, not even realizing that
they're struggling with the samestruggles.
And so a lot of parents do endup getting treatment after
(27:47):
finding treatment for theirchildren, which is a whole, as
you mentioned, teresa, a wholeyou know other ballgame.
But we often want our childrento be the best they can be, to
feel better, to be better, andthat kind of pushes the adults
in their life to seek outtreatment as well.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I think the other reason, scott, to your point,
the reason we still haven'tnormalized that is because we
still have a dark side to theway we think about mental health
challenges and substance use,the image that many times too
often comes to mind when I say aperson with a serious mental
(28:25):
illness is the homeless personor it's the violent person with
a gun, and that's not the norm.
But that is still the stigmaand the stereotype that I think
people don't want their familymember or themselves to be
judged about.
Yet we see the stories ofresiliency and hope every day.
(28:46):
I think about the people thatI've personally worked with over
the years who were homeless.
They had serious mental illness.
They spent time in prison forlots of different crimes, a lot
of them property crimes, but nowthey've found recovery, they've
got their life back, they'resubstance free, they're, they've
worked through their mentalhealth challenges and they're,
(29:08):
you know, productive members ofsociety.
They're working, they're givingback and that's really the norm
, not the exception.
And until we can get to thatpoint and we stop continuing to
catastrophize that mentalillness is tied to violence or
homelessness or all of the badthings that we think in society,
(29:30):
that's still something thatholds us back, and that's why
these conversations aroundgetting help and why it's valued
, and having employers valuemental health as part of, you
know, of work, as part of livinga healthy life, becomes so
critically important.
Because once we do that, thenwe are normalizing it.
(29:50):
Like I offer you healthinsurance because if you break
your arm, I want you to get itfixed so you can come back to
work right.
If you have a heart attack, wewant you to get the help that
you need.
If you have diabetes, yes, wewant you to manage your diabetes
.
We want you to be healthy.
Well, we need you to bephysically healthy and mentally
healthy, and that's still thework we have to do.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Those are all great points, Teresa.
I want to talk a little bitabout your experience.
What led you to your path?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Mine is not as poignant as Ashley's, I would
say.
Growing up I was just alwaysthe person who was the natural
helper.
You know, in my family we weremy family.
We believed in giving back.
We believed in helping people.
If there was somebody whoneeded a meal, we invited them
in.
If there was somebody whoneeded a place to stay, we
(30:41):
invited them in.
In school I was the kid thatpeople came to when they needed
help.
They wanted to solve a problem.
So naturally, when I waslooking for a career I was like
I want to be in the helpingprofession.
That led me to the college Iwent to, to a degree in
psychology and then eventuallybecause I needed to get a
(31:03):
license to do the things andthat's a whole other
conversation for another day Iended up in the social work
program, but I worked in kidsresidential with adolescent
girls that had mental health andsubstance use for my first job
and it was one of the mostrewarding experiences, both
professionally and personally,of really understanding how
(31:26):
people can be so resilient, whenyou're working with adolescents
who have endured more in their10, 12, 16 years than most
people endure in a lifetime.
Yet there's such hope and theyhave the strength and the
resiliency to work through thatand to now have, you know, had
(31:48):
the opportunity to run into acouple of them just in the
course of life to see that theyhave overcome and they're, you
know, they have families oftheir own now and they're doing
this work and then working withadults with serious mental
illness for many years andreally helping them, you know,
find their best life and justagain seeing the hope that they
(32:10):
have.
And how many times we overlookthe day-to-day joy because we're
so focused on the challengesand so really being having those
opportunities to see peoplerebound and get back to the
goals that they have for theirown lives and recognizing we all
have those same shared humanqualities they have for their
(32:31):
own lives and recognizing we allhave those same shared human
qualities.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Ashley, you've shared , as Teresa said very poignantly
, your personal story.
I've got to believe thatwhether you're at Mary Haven or
other places, people see you asthe VP, as the corporate exec,
but when you start sharing yourpersonal story, then those walls
come down right and thenconversations start.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Certainly it's important as a leader in our
company that we're havingconversations with our people
that show them that we are herefor them.
As individuals, we care forthem.
You know, at Crane Group, ourvalues are respect, family and
community, and you know familyis your family owned, but also
you know our employees are ourfamily, our employees are, you
(33:20):
know, our work product, and soit's super important for us to
make sure that our employeesknow that they have support in
their health journey, no matterwhat, matter what it may be.
And so you know we make surethat we look at that and take it
up a notch right.
So, if normal health insuranceis covering maybe two counseling
(33:41):
visits per year which soundsabsurd, you know we're notching
that up to maybe it's 12, rightSome health insurance plans,
when you see a counselor outsideof those two per year, they
don't hit your deductible, andso we're making sure that the
cost that those employees areincurring hits their deductible.
You know we also did a lot ofthings to, you know, remove
(34:05):
barriers to care, as I mentionedearlier, and so partnering with
specific mental healthprofessionals and other wellness
practitioners to ensure thatour employees have the access to
care, whether it be, hey, thewait time's really long.
Can I see someone sooner?
Or priority scheduling?
We're keeping the mornings openfor your employees, really
(34:27):
trying to make it as easy aspossible for our employees to
access the care that they need.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Not to trivialize anything, because we know that
with any issue, there are somany different challenges and
many of the ones that we'vealready discussed today.
However, we do like to ask ifyou had that magic wand, if you
had one thing that you couldchange immediately about
behavioral health in the stateof Ohio.
Maybe specifically what?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
would that be so magic wand questions are always
challenging, right, because it'shard to identify just one thing
.
But I think for me I'd go alittle bit kind of higher level,
up to that 30,000 foot, andreally focus on elevating the
value and when I say value ofmental health, I mean that in a
couple of different ways.
The first one really is that wevalue mental health as
(35:19):
essential health and that brainhealth is treated exactly the
same way as any other physicalhealth condition.
Because if we value that, thenwe start to deal with a lot of
the things, you know, the thingsthat Ashley was just describing
the mere fact that when we'rebuying health insurance we have
to dive into the nitty detailsin behavioral health that we
would never do in cardiac careor, you know, stroke care or
(35:43):
anything else.
We would assume those thingswere taken care of.
So really valuing that, butvaluing it in the workplace,
like Ashley's company hasclearly taken steps to do that.
So we value it in our workplacebecause it matters to being
successful, both personally buteconomically, and both as our
(36:04):
businesses being economicallystable but our economy.
And finally, we would value thebehavioral health workforce
that's doing this job for thelife-saving and life-changing
interventions they provide on adaily basis.
Too often I think they'rethought of as doing God's work,
which it is and it's important.
But we need to elevate thevalue that what we do in
(36:26):
behavioral health as aprofession is life-saving work,
the same way we think aboutdoctors and nurses and hospitals
or first responders.
So value would be the magicwand that I would be my magic
wand.
Request Love that.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
For me, I think it would be increasing access and
availability to folks on thetotal continuum of care.
And what I mean by that is atMary Haven we're really great at
getting people in the door andwe can treat them quickly detox,
get them to in-person treatment, transition to outpatient.
(37:03):
We even have some, you know,homes that folks can live in
during treatment not very manybut a few, but it's the access
to that continuum of care.
So we have a lot of spots indetox.
We have a lot of spots, youknow, in that initial inpatient.
But once that month is up,where do they go?
(37:24):
And so, you know, we work withpartners in the community, but
there's not enough space foreveryone.
Partners in the community, butthere's not enough space for
everyone.
And you know, the statisticstell us that when an individual
goes right back into theenvironment they were in
pre-treatment, relapses happen alot of the time.
And so how do you help thatindividual?
(37:45):
Find a new place to live, finda new job, you know, remove
themselves from the situationsthey were in.
It's hard.
There's not a lot of affordablehousing in central Ohio, and
that that does exist maybe isn'treserved for substance use,
people recovering from substanceuse.
But you know, we found thatfolks that are coming into
(38:10):
treatment for substance usedisorder are really
self-medicating and a lot oftimes it's a health, mental
health issue, and so we've gotto be able to have those
resources in that full continuumof care.
You know, mary Haven does agreat job.
We have the continuum of care,but that's only if people can
get to us and so making surewe're focusing on that, you know
(38:32):
, meeting people where they arewhich I think Mary Haven does a
great job and just allowingpeople to have the resources
they need to, you know, hope toheal and restore their lives.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's great when you ask that magic wand question and
that you have two experts likeyourselves give different
answers and yet they mesh right.
Because if we bring more valueto mental health, that's going
to help the continuum of careand if we continue to talk about
continuum of care, that's goingto elevate the value.
I love that and I like it whenit's organic, like that Synergy,
(39:08):
I know, I know All over therewe go.
Love that.
Thank you both for joining us.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Thank you.
It's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And we really appreciate all the insight and
the personal stories that youshared with us, to our listeners
as well.
We thank you.
When you listen to our episodes, you break stigmas, you break
barriers and you care aboutmental health and saving lives.
This is Voices for SuicidePrevention, brought to you by
the Ohio Suicide PreventionFoundation.
(39:34):
Thank you.
Welcome to our June episode of Voices for Suicide
Prevention.
As we like to say, ourconversations are real talk,
real honest, real life.
I'm Stephanie Bucher.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
And I'm Scott Light.
We are so pleased this month towelcome two dynamic leaders
from both the corporate andadvocacy space to talk about
mental and behavioral health inthe workplace.
What a dynamic subject, and boy.
This is really nuanced too, andwe're really going to get into
it here with our two guests.
So let me introduce you to themright now.
Teresa Lample is CEO of theOhio Council of Behavioral
(00:40):
Health and Family ServicesProviders, and Ashley Matthews
is Vice president of tax for thecrane group.
Welcome to you both.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Thank you for having us Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Teresa, let's go ahead and get started with our
conversation.
Most recent report on growing ahealthy workforce in Ohio from
the Ohio Council, and addressinga workforce crisis at the same
time.
So lots of data pulling in theinformation.
The demand for mental healthand substance use services,
(01:11):
unrelenting, we're talking onein four US adults reporting
experiencing a mental healthcondition each year.
And, unfortunately, theavailability of treatment and
support and help not keeping upleaving many without access to
that kind of care.
And so help us understand fromthe issue first and challenges
(01:32):
here in Ohio.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure.
So when we think about theimpact of mental health and
substance use, we know that it'simpacting it one in four, as
you just said.
Substance use we know that it'simpacting it one in four, as
you just said, and that meansbasically every family at some
point in time is dealing witheither a mental health or a
substance use condition.
Yet when we look at thebehavioral health workforce, one
of the things we find is accessis incredibly challenging, and
(01:58):
the data from the Centers forDisease Control tells us that at
any given time, as an adult,only about 50% of adults can
access mental health care andfor kids it's about 44% and,
unfortunately, in the substanceuse space it's about 23%.
So we have significantchallenges, even though we have
incredible demand, and there'slots of reasons.
(02:19):
One was we still have issueswith stigma and not everybody's
going to be willing to accesscare.
But our biggest challenge is,frankly, that the demand for
care has far outpaced the numberof people available for care,
and some of that is due to it'sa complicated issue.
It's been growing over time.
We've known for about the lasttwo decades that we have had a
(02:42):
growing workforce shortage inhealthcare, but then
specifically in behavioralhealthcare, because we don't
always treat mental health andsubstance use as health
conditions.
So what's really really workingto reset that?
Brain health is essentialhealth and I think during the
pandemic we finally reallyrealized how important mental
health is to overall health andwell-being.
(03:04):
So there's been this concertedeffort of late to increase the
behavioral health workforce.
But we're challenged.
It's hard work.
It's 24-7, 365.
We humans are very human-y andvery you know our issues don't
happen neatly in an eight tofive schedule.
So it's being able andavailable.
Many of the jobs require amaster's degree or higher in
(03:26):
training.
Yet the average pay for aperson with a master's degree is
around $60,000 to $65,000.
And if you don't have amaster's degree you're making
somewhere in the $30,000 to$35,000.
So you end up then with lots ofacademic debt which becomes a
deterrent to going into the jobs, and so low pay is a challenge.
Plus then just the burden ofthe work.
(03:48):
And while we've made efforts oflate to make some investments
to encourage people to come intothe professions, what we find
is the workforce shortages havegotten even worse.
Even in three years we saw a10% increase in the number of
health professional shortagesfor mental health care in the
state of Ohio.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
So we do see, in the substance use disorder mental
health treatment area, access tocare is incredibly important.
You know we go through stageswhere we're turning folks away
and then you know you go throughseasons where our beds aren't
full, and so we find that it'sreally hard to hit that high
(04:33):
demand, that peak season, whenfolks are ready for care.
We just don't have the room forthem for care.
And so we at Mary Haven arealways looking at ways that we
can expand our inpatient beds,outpatient services, partnering
with other organizations, andalways looking at that continuum
(04:53):
of care.
And how do we make sure thatfolks that we can work with can
continue on their journey afterthey leave us?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And I think a piece that plays into that when you're
an employer, you know reallythinking about the employer side
of this is we.
You know employers offer ahealth insurance benefit and one
of the challenges in access isdoes the benefit actually cover
with the service that theindividual needs?
Most insurance benefits don'tpay for preventative mental
(05:20):
health or substance use care.
You get one well visit and youmay get a question or two about
are you depressed or are youanxious or using substances, but
that's the full extent.
And then accessing servicesthrough your typical private
insurance is really challengingand may not cover the continuum
of care that Ashley was justtalking about.
(05:42):
It may cover individualcounseling or a group session or
maybe a hospitalization, butnothing in between.
And that's one of the bigchallenges that we face is
helping people understand whattheir benefit is and then making
sure that we are treating thebrain and diseases of the brain
the same way we treat diseasesof the heart and the lungs, and
(06:02):
so it's actually that's aroundinsurance parity, that's what
it's called and making sure thateverybody understands that your
insurance company is obligatedto treat a mental health and a
substance use condition the sameway they would treat a physical
health condition, like if youhad a heart attack or a broken
bone.
But many times we find thataccess isn't the same and the
(06:22):
availability of care is fardifferent and the wait list much
longer.
Which is partially what'sdriven the workforce shortages
is we don't have equity in howthey pay for the services and
the disease conditions, letalone then the practitioners
delivering that care.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
And I think the data is there to show that
preventative care and mentalhealth, you know, increases
positive outcomes is good forbusiness, right?
We have folks that are leavingmissing work, you know, so many
hours per week because of theseillnesses and I think health
insurers are really good atexplaining to businesses.
(07:02):
You know, if you add thispreventative care measure, if
you do this as a wellnessprogram, if you do XYZ, your
claims will go down.
You'll save some money.
Right, we're not good at that.
From a mental healthperspective.
We're not great at saying, hey,offer these preventative
programs for your employees,remove the barriers to care,
which is one thing that we do atCrane Group is, you know,
(07:23):
partnering with professionals toget sort of priority scheduling
or remove that weight that somany of us struggle with to get
in and see a mental healthprofessional, and those things
really do impact positiveoutcomes and, do you know,
reduce premiums and health carecosts.
(07:43):
But that's not a topic ofconversation that employers are
having with their healthinsurers on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, you really teed us up here, because Stephanie
and I found a few data pointshere, and why don't we click
through a few of these, ashley,to your point each year, the US
forfeits nearly 300 billion fromGDP from costs associated with
untreated mental health andsubstance use disorders.
(08:11):
And then we also found oneother statistic too, and I put a
big old asterisk beside thisone.
There was an Ohio StateUniversity study, and it found
that the opioid epidemic costOhio between $66 to 8.8 billion
a year.
That's about the same amount ofmoney that we spend on K
(08:33):
through 12 education.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Staggering.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Jump in, help us, help us flesh this out.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You know, when we found at Mary Haven that when an
individual is not treated forsubstance use disorder or a
mental health crisis, it's about15 K per individual rate.
And so that's kind of whatthese numbers are showing us
that it's a huge cost, um, andwith treatment, you know.
The other side of the coin isthey're more productive, right,
(09:00):
and about 42% more productivethan they would otherwise be had
they not been treated.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I've tried to think about this as opportunity loss
cost.
You know we think abouteverything we talk about,
particularly when it comes tofunding and state investment.
A lot in four people in yourworkforce, or one in four people
, are dealing, if not directly,with a family member.
One of the other statisticsthat also strikes me, and
(09:40):
probably because I'm a parentbut 53% of working families, a
parent misses a day of workevery single month just to
attend to their child's mental,emotional and behavioral health
needs.
We are seeing this growingcrisis of mental health,
depression, anxiety and, frankly, some early age substance use,
(10:00):
whether it's vaping or marijuana, alcohol use and we're starting
earlier and earlier.
And so how do we stop that?
How do we teach and prevententry into those?
But parents, that's a lot oftime that parents are missing
work.
We also know that, and that wasa study done here in Columbus
at Nationwide Children's thatfound that.
(10:22):
They also found that about 55%of parents report that their
productivity is less on a weeklybasis because they're having to
manage issues with their child,whether it's at school, whether
it's with an appointment, adoctor, a counselor.
And so we know there's thisgrowing impact because our
younger people, they're notafraid to talk about the mental
(10:44):
health challenges, and that'sgood.
We're overcoming the stigma,they're recognizing it and
they're asking for help in wayswe've not seen before, and so we
have all of this opportunity tomake a difference.
Yet it's having a cost on ourbusinesses and then it's a cost
to taxpayers as we're trying tofund these services, and
(11:05):
sometimes there's a cost shiftbecause what the private
insurance companies aren'tpaying for, somebody else is
making it up, whether it's aschool system, whether it's an
after-school program, whetherit's an employer saying, hey,
I'm going to offer this wellnessprogram because it's the right
thing to do for the people thatI care about and who are doing a
good job working for me.
Or we're dealing with unfundedservices.
(11:29):
So you're looking at Medicaidor private dollar having to make
it up.
So there's a lot that we couldbe investing that makes more
revenue and because we have ahealthy workforce.
So if we had a healthyworkforce, we'd be spending less
money on some of these services.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
If I could follow up on that with you, teresa.
So a lot of what ourorganization does, what your
organization does, is help toeducate and advocate on behalf
of some of these issues.
When we're talking to thosestakeholders, those policymakers
, I'm just curious, you don'thave to call out any names or
(12:11):
anything.
I'm just curious, the receptionthat you're getting when you're
bringing these types of thingsup to them.
Is that message getting through?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
So I think so.
I think that in the 20 yearsI've been doing advocacy at the
state and federal level, what Iwould say is when I started, we
used to have to explain whymental health mattered, and we
used to have to explain whymental health mattered, and now
we don't have to explain whymental health matters.
Now it's really.
We can have the conversationabout what's the cost savings.
(12:40):
When we look at prevention, forexample, we know that with kids
just a $602 investment in aprevention program in a school,
for example, by the time thatchild reaches the ages of 23, if
we've taught them good copingskills and resiliency and how to
manage basic challenges andfrustrations in life, we can
(13:02):
save almost $7,800 per child.
So it's big.
We know that an ounce ofprevention is worth a pound of
cure.
That's an old saying, but it'sso very true If we just teach
people some basic skills and wecan prevent entry into a longer
term episode or understand thatthey can get help earlier,
(13:26):
rather than waiting untilthey're deep into a depression
or so anxious that they're notfunctioning or using a substance
to the point it's causing majorproblems in their lives.
So we can now start having theseconversations around why things
like prevention matters.
We actually were asked in thelast General Assembly to put
together a report that says tellus what the cost savings is.
(13:48):
Because we want to take it tosome of our other conservative
partners and say look, thismatters.
And so we have seen someinvestment in prevention and we
do see that now that we'rehaving this conversation about
the cost.
And part of why we wanted toreally work on what is the
economic cost of this is becausewe know that there's data,
(14:11):
there's information that forevery dollar we spend in mental
health or substance use care,we're generating four in return
in either reduced health savingsor increased productivity.
So if you want to grow theeconomy, you have to have
healthy people.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You do Ashley to you with Stephanie's question from
the corporate side.
If you've got Acme Corporationthat comes to you and says, okay
, ashley, why should corporateAmerica jump in here and why
should we get to the tip of thespear when it comes to mental
health?
What would you say to thatcompany?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
I would say that it's not just a moral argument of
whether or not you shouldsupport your employees, it's
also an economic one.
And so all of the statistics,all of the things we've said
before, you know workforces ebband flow and similar to how
there are struggles findingmental health professionals,
(15:10):
there are struggles finding, youknow, skilled workers in all
areas.
So to me, it is one more goodfact for your company that can
encourage employees to come workfor you Supporting mental
health, having, you know,additional insurance over what's
required to help withpreventative care, to help with,
(15:32):
you know, counseling sessions,you know other types of stress
management or nutrition benefitsthat can help folks, you know,
really manage their holistichealth, which we know impacts
mental health significantly.
And so I would say, you knowit's about doing the right thing
(15:54):
and supporting your employees.
But when you do the right thingand support your employees,
it'll also help your bottom line.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Helps the bottom line and it helps retention.
You know, teresa, to your pointabout this younger generation.
They want that holisticapproach.
They and you know what they'llraise the volume about.
They want more PTO and theywant more time off there.
Well, you know, when they'rethere at work they're going to
put in the hours, they're goingto give you 150%, but away from
work they do want those services.
(16:21):
I'm glad they're vocal about it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Well, and I think that's the reciprocal value that
we're talking about, right, Imean, it's not.
You know, we've heard, and whenyou look at the data and I like
data so when you look at theoverall workforce, you know we
are still not at the same levelof productivity from a workforce
than we were prior to thepandemic and it's stubborn.
We're kind of at this like 63,64% and we cannot seem to
(16:45):
rebound and people don't realizethat what we lost during the
pandemic was, you know, it'sreally an impact from the mental
health side.
So you have people who diedfrom COVID and that was a huge
loss of people.
But the opiate overdoseepidemic we have lost hundreds
of thousands of people year overyear and those are people that
(17:08):
we lost from the workforce.
So general labor is strugglingto find workers because they
need a healthy workforce, but wedon't always think about giving
people a sick day when they'renot feeling mentally well or if
they're struggling with asubstance use condition.
We don't yet in all businessesthink of allowing people to use
(17:28):
that sick day unless it's aphysical health issue.
You look bad.
You've got a fever.
We can see it on your face.
You can see that you've had allthese physical symptoms or
you've struggled, You've had asurgery, you've got things that
we can physically see or systemsother than the brain that are
impacted, and it's like, oh yeah, take a sick day, but we still
(17:49):
have to normalize in all of ourbusinesses that you need to be
well, and wellness meansmentally well as well as
physically well, and I thinkthat's still a challenge that we
have to work through, becauseit is a reciprocal in the
workforce.
And then the challenge is,though I don't always have a
mental health professionalavailable when I'm not feeling
(18:12):
mentally well, and so how do wecreate the same opportunities
and pathways to access care,even short-term care, the same
way that we do with physicalhealth care?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Let's pivot just a little bit and talk about each
of your journeys to this work.
And, ashley, you are on theboard of Mary Haven, which has
served more than 350,000 peoplesince the early 1950s with
mental health and substance use.
What experience connected youto Mary Haven?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Well, substance use disorder impacted my life at a
very young age.
My father was in and out oftreatment my entire life, his
entire adult life, andunfortunately his battle ended
when he died by suicide at age36.
You know, when I started atCrane Group, I was coming up on
(19:07):
that 35, that 35, 36 year age,and it kind of puts things in
perspective, right, you can tryto put yourself in his shoes, or
what was he going through.
Or, man, my kids are reallyyoung.
I couldn't imagine thathappening.
And so it really the timingworked out well, because at
Crane Group there's a program wedo called Crane on Board, and
(19:29):
we really encourage employees toseek out a cause that they're
passionate about and thenparticipate with a non-profit in
some meaningful way.
So that may be joining a board,that may be joining a committee
first, that may be doing somevolunteer work, but we really
leave it up to the employee toreally decide where their
(19:50):
passion lies.
And so, given the firsthandexperience I had with the
struggle of substance usedisorder and mental illness from
seeing my father struggle, butI also had experience on how it
impacted my siblings and me andthe rest of my family, and so I
felt really strongly that Icould combine that personal
(20:11):
experience as well as myprofessional experience and make
a difference in this community.
I felt strongly that someonethat understands the client and
their journey and theirstruggles, not only inside
treatment but before treatmentand outside treatment, and how
do we ensure that our clientsare set up for success to
(20:33):
continue their sober journeyafter they leave us.
And so I felt really stronglythat I could participate and you
know I've had a great time, youknow, really working with the
team at Mary Haven justfurthering our mission, you know
, helping individuals leadhealthy lives free from
addiction and mental illness byproviding education, treatment
(20:57):
and support, and Mary Haven doesa great job at that and I'm
happy to support that mission.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Can I ask what year your dad died by suicide?
Speaker 4 (21:08):
2002.
That's not long ago, no.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That is not long ago.
And that is not long ago and Iknow we're going to get to this
a little bit later, but maybe wecan jump into it now in terms
of what have you both seen overthese last years, couple of
decades, with a very personalexperience for you, actually in
terms of the changing of thestigmas and the stereotypes
(21:30):
around mental health?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
The stigma is definitely changing and I think
it's great.
I am one of those people thatis not afraid to talk about my
experience, my personal journeywith mental illness, my family's
journey with mental illness.
I always wanna be that personthat speaks about it and maybe
give somebody else a littleconfidence to either speak about
(21:52):
it or go get help.
And so I personally, in mycircles whether it's my
professional circle, personalcircle make sure that I speak
about that when appropriate.
But I do think, as much associal media is really great,
social media can also have somedownsides.
But I do really respect whatsocial media has done for the
(22:17):
mental health field inencouraging people to talk about
it or seeing signs ofthemselves in another content
creator or video or TikTok thatsays, hey, maybe this isn't
normal, maybe this is somethingthat I could get treatment for
to feel better.
I definitely think theopportunities for treatment and
(22:38):
the resources are easier to findin that case, and I think we're
doing a better job through thesocial media of trying to meet
people where they are.
As you mentioned, you know, amental health crisis is an eight
to five, and so where can aperson get support?
And it's maybe they saw a videoon TikTok that linked them to
(23:01):
suicide prevention hotline orsomething else.
It really is an opportunity forpeople to say, hey, there's
people like me out here and Imay be having a crisis you know
crisis at like midnight on aTuesday.
I'm going to look at some ofthese videos, I'm going to see
that there is hope, I'm going tosee that there is help and then
maybe I'll call first thing thenext morning and make an
appointment.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I think, too, you know what's changed.
I remember when Prozac wasfirst introduced into the market
in the mid 1980s and it wasshocking that we actually might
have a medication that'savailable to treat depression,
and how we villainized it,frankly in the early mid 80s
(23:43):
about it was a problem, and nowwe were just depending on a
medication instead of justpulling ourselves up by our
bootstraps, because that wasalways.
You know the solution right,you just need to pray more, you
need to be a better person.
It's self, you know, it's aself problem, not a brain
problem.
And so I think now today, we dotalk about it more openly,
(24:06):
maybe too much, maybe.
Now people want you know theletters after their name I'm OCD
, I'm BPD, I'm, you know,depressed, I'm anxious, I have
schizophrenia as a badge ofhonor instead of you know the
same way, and so how do webalance that?
And I think some of that is thesocial media and the networking
(24:28):
, but we do talk about it.
You know, I have children whoare teenagers, and so we spend a
lot of time talking about ittoday, and they've both
struggled with mental healthissues and you know getting
access and what's that like andbeing able to talk about it and
talk about it openly and in allsettings, and figuring out how
(24:49):
do we continue to talk about itin a way that's productive and
not stereotyping.
And I think we've done a goodjob in some spaces around.
Talking about prevention andresiliency and coping is
(25:13):
something that is generationaland that we're still working
through.
And how is that different frombeing anxious or depressed?
When does substance use,getting into that misuse and
really being able to identifywhat's healthy versus unhealthy
those are still places thatwe're struggling, I think, in
our society and as we'venormalized marijuana use, what
does that mean?
(25:33):
You know to our, you know tothese generations whether you're
in, you know an older personwho remembers you know the 60s
and marijuana use and what's itlike today, which is very
different from what's available,versus a teen who may be
thinking about vaping, or youknow CBD or gummies, or what
(25:54):
does that look like?
So we still we've spanned andwe've grown in the way we think
about it and talk about it.
And so now it's how do we helppeople make healthy decisions
and understand their own riskfactors?
And I think that's a piece westill have more science to
uncover, which is how do we knowwho's going to be a person
that's likely to experience adepressive episode or super
(26:19):
serious anxiety or be morelikely to have a substance use
condition and be educated aboutyourself and your family history
because it does matter.
And then we have to let sciencecontinue to evolve so that we
really know how do we providebetter interventions and more
timely and more quickly get tothe right medications.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I have a standing offer and I don't say this to be
funny or flip, but I'm stillwaiting on somebody to come into
a conference room and go,instead of saying, hey guys, I'm
sorry I'm late, johnny brokehis arm and we had to go to the
ER Because that's how peoplewould say that.
Right, they would just say itjust like that.
But I'm still waiting on myfirst experience where somebody
(27:00):
just says hey guys, sorry, I'mlate, but Johnny was late to his
therapist appointment.
We were late to his therapistappointment this morning.
And to say it just like that,just like he broke his arm, and
the offer is as soon as thatcomes, I will take that person
out to whatever lunch, whateverthey want and again.
that's not to be flipped.
I just say that I bring it upto say we need to get to that
(27:22):
point.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, I mean, I found also in my experience, even
with my children now.
I've battled my own mentalillness since I was in my early
twenties.
But even you know a lot ofparents will seek it and want to
fix or help their childrenright, not even realizing that
they're struggling with the samestruggles.
And so a lot of parents do endup getting treatment after
(27:47):
finding treatment for theirchildren, which is a whole, as
you mentioned, teresa, a wholeyou know other ballgame.
But we often want our childrento be the best they can be, to
feel better, to be better, andthat kind of pushes the adults
in their life to seek outtreatment as well.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I think the other reason, scott, to your point,
the reason we still haven'tnormalized that is because we
still have a dark side to theway we think about mental health
challenges and substance use,the image that many times too
often comes to mind when I say aperson with a serious mental
(28:25):
illness is the homeless personor it's the violent person with
a gun, and that's not the norm.
But that is still the stigmaand the stereotype that I think
people don't want their familymember or themselves to be
judged about.
Yet we see the stories ofresiliency and hope every day.
(28:46):
I think about the people thatI've personally worked with over
the years who were homeless.
They had serious mental illness.
They spent time in prison forlots of different crimes, a lot
of them property crimes, but nowthey've found recovery, they've
got their life back, they'resubstance free, they're, they've
worked through their mentalhealth challenges and they're,
(29:08):
you know, productive members ofsociety.
They're working, they're givingback and that's really the norm
, not the exception.
And until we can get to thatpoint and we stop continuing to
catastrophize that mentalillness is tied to violence or
homelessness or all of the badthings that we think in society,
(29:30):
that's still something thatholds us back, and that's why
these conversations aroundgetting help and why it's valued
, and having employers valuemental health as part of, you
know, of work, as part of livinga healthy life, becomes so
critically important.
Because once we do that, thenwe are normalizing it.
(29:50):
Like I offer you healthinsurance because if you break
your arm, I want you to get itfixed so you can come back to
work right.
If you have a heart attack, wewant you to get the help that
you need.
If you have diabetes, yes, wewant you to manage your diabetes
.
We want you to be healthy.
Well, we need you to bephysically healthy and mentally
healthy, and that's still thework we have to do.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Those are all great points, Teresa.
I want to talk a little bitabout your experience.
What led you to your path?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Mine is not as poignant as Ashley's, I would
say.
Growing up I was just alwaysthe person who was the natural
helper.
You know, in my family we weremy family.
We believed in giving back.
We believed in helping people.
If there was somebody whoneeded a meal, we invited them
in.
If there was somebody whoneeded a place to stay, we
(30:41):
invited them in.
In school I was the kid thatpeople came to when they needed
help.
They wanted to solve a problem.
So naturally, when I waslooking for a career I was like
I want to be in the helpingprofession.
That led me to the college Iwent to, to a degree in
psychology and then eventuallybecause I needed to get a
(31:03):
license to do the things andthat's a whole other
conversation for another day Iended up in the social work
program, but I worked in kidsresidential with adolescent
girls that had mental health andsubstance use for my first job
and it was one of the mostrewarding experiences, both
professionally and personally,of really understanding how
(31:26):
people can be so resilient, whenyou're working with adolescents
who have endured more in their10, 12, 16 years than most
people endure in a lifetime.
Yet there's such hope and theyhave the strength and the
resiliency to work through thatand to now have, you know, had
(31:48):
the opportunity to run into acouple of them just in the
course of life to see that theyhave overcome and they're, you
know, they have families oftheir own now and they're doing
this work and then working withadults with serious mental
illness for many years andreally helping them, you know,
find their best life and justagain seeing the hope that they
(32:10):
have.
And how many times we overlookthe day-to-day joy because we're
so focused on the challengesand so really being having those
opportunities to see peoplerebound and get back to the
goals that they have for theirown lives and recognizing we all
have those same shared humanqualities they have for their
(32:31):
own lives and recognizing we allhave those same shared human
qualities.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Ashley, you've shared , as Teresa said very poignantly
, your personal story.
I've got to believe thatwhether you're at Mary Haven or
other places, people see you asthe VP, as the corporate exec,
but when you start sharing yourpersonal story, then those walls
come down right and thenconversations start.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Certainly it's important as a leader in our
company that we're havingconversations with our people
that show them that we are herefor them.
As individuals, we care forthem.
You know, at Crane Group, ourvalues are respect, family and
community, and you know familyis your family owned, but also
you know our employees are ourfamily, our employees are, you
(33:20):
know, our work product, and soit's super important for us to
make sure that our employeesknow that they have support in
their health journey, no matterwhat, matter what it may be.
And so you know we make surethat we look at that and take it
up a notch right.
So, if normal health insuranceis covering maybe two counseling
(33:41):
visits per year which soundsabsurd, you know we're notching
that up to maybe it's 12, rightSome health insurance plans,
when you see a counselor outsideof those two per year, they
don't hit your deductible, andso we're making sure that the
cost that those employees areincurring hits their deductible.
You know we also did a lot ofthings to, you know, remove
(34:05):
barriers to care, as I mentionedearlier, and so partnering with
specific mental healthprofessionals and other wellness
practitioners to ensure thatour employees have the access to
care, whether it be, hey, thewait time's really long.
Can I see someone sooner?
Or priority scheduling?
We're keeping the mornings openfor your employees, really
(34:27):
trying to make it as easy aspossible for our employees to
access the care that they need.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Not to trivialize anything, because we know that
with any issue, there are somany different challenges and
many of the ones that we'vealready discussed today.
However, we do like to ask ifyou had that magic wand, if you
had one thing that you couldchange immediately about
behavioral health in the stateof Ohio.
Maybe specifically what?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
would that be so magic wand questions are always
challenging, right, because it'shard to identify just one thing
.
But I think for me I'd go alittle bit kind of higher level,
up to that 30,000 foot, andreally focus on elevating the
value and when I say value ofmental health, I mean that in a
couple of different ways.
The first one really is that wevalue mental health as
(35:19):
essential health and that brainhealth is treated exactly the
same way as any other physicalhealth condition.
Because if we value that, thenwe start to deal with a lot of
the things, you know, the thingsthat Ashley was just describing
the mere fact that when we'rebuying health insurance we have
to dive into the nitty detailsin behavioral health that we
would never do in cardiac careor, you know, stroke care or
(35:43):
anything else.
We would assume those thingswere taken care of.
So really valuing that, butvaluing it in the workplace,
like Ashley's company hasclearly taken steps to do that.
So we value it in our workplacebecause it matters to being
successful, both personally buteconomically, and both as our
(36:04):
businesses being economicallystable but our economy.
And finally, we would value thebehavioral health workforce
that's doing this job for thelife-saving and life-changing
interventions they provide on adaily basis.
Too often I think they'rethought of as doing God's work,
which it is and it's important.
But we need to elevate thevalue that what we do in
(36:26):
behavioral health as aprofession is life-saving work,
the same way we think aboutdoctors and nurses and hospitals
or first responders.
So value would be the magicwand that I would be my magic
wand.
Request Love that.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
For me, I think it would be increasing access and
availability to folks on thetotal continuum of care.
And what I mean by that is atMary Haven we're really great at
getting people in the door andwe can treat them quickly detox,
get them to in-person treatment, transition to outpatient.
(37:03):
We even have some, you know,homes that folks can live in
during treatment not very manybut a few, but it's the access
to that continuum of care.
So we have a lot of spots indetox.
We have a lot of spots, youknow, in that initial inpatient.
But once that month is up,where do they go?
(37:24):
And so, you know, we work withpartners in the community, but
there's not enough space foreveryone.
Partners in the community, butthere's not enough space for
everyone.
And you know, the statisticstell us that when an individual
goes right back into theenvironment they were in
pre-treatment, relapses happen alot of the time.
And so how do you help thatindividual?
(37:45):
Find a new place to live, finda new job, you know, remove
themselves from the situationsthey were in.
It's hard.
There's not a lot of affordablehousing in central Ohio, and
that that does exist maybe isn'treserved for substance use,
people recovering from substanceuse.
But you know, we found thatfolks that are coming into
(38:10):
treatment for substance usedisorder are really
self-medicating and a lot oftimes it's a health, mental
health issue, and so we've gotto be able to have those
resources in that full continuumof care.
You know, mary Haven does agreat job.
We have the continuum of care,but that's only if people can
get to us and so making surewe're focusing on that, you know
(38:32):
, meeting people where they arewhich I think Mary Haven does a
great job and just allowingpeople to have the resources
they need to, you know, hope toheal and restore their lives.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's great when you ask that magic wand question and
that you have two experts likeyourselves give different
answers and yet they mesh right.
Because if we bring more valueto mental health, that's going
to help the continuum of careand if we continue to talk about
continuum of care, that's goingto elevate the value.
I love that and I like it whenit's organic, like that Synergy,
(39:08):
I know, I know All over therewe go.
Love that.
Thank you both for joining us.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Thank you.
It's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And we really appreciate all the insight and
the personal stories that youshared with us, to our listeners
as well.
We thank you.
When you listen to our episodes, you break stigmas, you break
barriers and you care aboutmental health and saving lives.
This is Voices for SuicidePrevention, brought to you by
the Ohio Suicide PreventionFoundation.
(39:34):
Thank you.
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