November 24, 2025 • 44 mins
Raw honesty meets hard-won wisdom in a conversation with three veterans who open up about service, identity, and the messy middle of healing. We explore how the military’s structure can be both lifeline and blindfold—building discipline and leadership while making it easy to bury pain in the name of the mission. From early careers where mental health was a no-go topic to a slow cultural shift toward prevention, they lay out what changed, what hasn’t, and why vulnerability makes units stronger, not weaker.
We dig into myths civilians hold about veterans and trauma, and why “strong and struggling” can be true at the same time. You’ll hear practical ways to support without clichés: ask simple questions, listen without fixing, and learn the basics of military culture so your words land. Families get real attention here too—the constant balancing act of deployments, childcare, and unknowns—and how the load often pushes people toward unhealthy coping unless a community shows up.
Scott and Stephanie ask our guests about the transition after the uniform too: the loss of mission, the hit to identity, and the temptation to fill the void with busyness or substances. Our guests share what helped them rebuild—therapy when ready, peer groups, veteran retreats, EMDR, and outdoor activities that blend movement with conversation. If you care about suicide prevention, veteran wellness, or simply want a clearer way to show up for people you love, this conversation will change how you listen and how you lead.
If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more real talk on mental health, and leave a review to help others find the show.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Welcome everyone to our latest episode of Voices for
Suicide Prevention.
As we like to say, ourconversations here are real
talk, real honest, real life.
I'm Scott Light.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
And I'm Stephanie Booker.
We are always honored to talkabout issues, challenges, and
yes, the victories for veteranswho have served our country.
There's real momentum now inmany sectors of America's armed
forces to talk about mentalhealth and break stigmas and
help our men and women who wearor once wore the uniform.
We have three distinguishedvisitors and vet We have three
(00:37):
distinguished veterans with ustoday.
Today, she's clinical directorand veteran services coordinator
(01:00):
at the Recovery Center inLancaster.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
Master Sergeant retired Sean Clifton is with us
as well.
Twenty-two years of service inthe U.S.
Army and Ohio Army NationalGuard.
He's a Green Beret, who iswounded in combat in
Afghanistan.
Today, Sean is an independentconsultant and peer support
ambassador for veterans' mentalhealth and wellness.
And Sergeant First Class retiredJason Hughes joins us as well.
(01:23):
22 years of service in the U.S.
Army and Ohio Army NationalGuard.
Jason served in Operation NobleEagle, served in South Korea as
well.
And today he's an executiveright here at OSPF as program
manager and veterans liaison.
Welcome all.
It's good to have you all.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Thank you.
Well, let's go around the tablewith each of you.
And let's just start withNicole, if you don't mind.
Why did you serve?
Was there a reason why youserved?
And where did that calling comefrom?
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yeah, so I was actually one of those folks who
I was a very shy high schoolstudent.
And my dad was like, why don'tyou try ROTC?
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
What's that?
And so I ended up going to OhioState and I did it for the
college money initially.
I'll just admit that.
But once I got into ROTC andthen into my career, active army
(02:16):
career, I found that, you know,it's just this sense of, you
know, I've always had that senseof wanting to serve a greater
purpose.
And I found that calling andserving my country and it just
kind of blossomed from there.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Great.
Sean, where'd that calling comefrom?
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
For me, the uh wasn't necessarily a calling, so
to speak, uh, as it was a um uha need to be more responsible in
in life choices.
Um I was finding myselfstruggling as a college student
and uh more mixed up in thesocial scene than the study
habits.
And uh it just came to a pointin my life, um, you know, as a
(02:55):
as a 19, 20-year-old, where Ijust found myself um needing to
make a more responsible lifechoice.
And uh and I decided justindependently to pursue a
military career.
And uh and that was really thecatalyst to adult responsibility
for me.
Uh I I look back on thatdecision-making process as my
(03:19):
very first real adult decision.
And uh, and then after I decidedto join, uh, you know, much like
Nicole, I yeah, I knew the GIBill would come with that, and
some veteran benefits would comewith that, and and uh, and maybe
some experience and some skillsthat I can apply uh to college,
yeah, if if I give it a secondchance, which I did.
(03:41):
And um, so yeah, I was a bit ofa lost kid and the military
helped me out.
Jason, what about you?
SPEAKER_04 (03:47):
So I grew up in a tiny little county in Ohio,
Highland County.
So I wanted to get out and seethe world.
And I'd always knew I wanted tojoin the military.
I remember I used to love thosebe all you can be army
commercials as a kid.
And so to like expedite thatprocess, I actually did the
delayed entry program in 1997.
So I signed up for the Army inApril while I was still a senior
(04:10):
in high school and thengraduated in May and was in
basic training in July.
Like I just went straight there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (04:16):
One of the best decisions, hard decision, but it
was one of the best decisions Iever made.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
Well, let's start with you, Jason, then we'll go
back around.
Uh let's let's just continue totalk about kind of a the life
arc and and career arc for eachof you.
What are the greatest assets ofmilitary life and and how it
shaped you as a young person andstill today?
And then we'll layer on top ofthat.
Um, what were the greatestchallenges in military life?
SPEAKER_04 (04:39):
Uh for me, it's gotta be discipline and
organizational skills.
I even though I've been out uhretired six years ago, I'm still
very disciplined with myschedule, eating, physical
fitness, like how I you know domy entire day.
And it's you know, helped me bevery organized in my life.
I almost know down to the minutewhat I'm gonna do.
(05:01):
Some may say that's a crutch,but for me it works because I'm
always thinking ahead about whatI need to do.
That way I can capitalize on mydowntime because I know how much
downtime I have because I planfor it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
What about challenges?
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Challenges would be um you're uh coming together
with so many people who havedifferent beliefs, different
backgrounds, differentexperiences, and and trying to
find that uh even ground whereyou could fit in with these
folks.
Uh it's fun, but it can be verychallenging because it's so many
different beliefs comingtogether to serve one common
mission for the military.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Yeah, coming into the military, I was just so full
of energy and the need to dosomething.
And I think that um I justdidn't have a particular
mission, right?
Yeah, I didn't have anyboundaries left or right, you
know, either due to uh myupbringing or, you know, lack of
(05:58):
boundaries uh or whatever.
And um it was the structure thatI needed uh that the military
provided me.
And uh along with thatstructure, just that um belief
that, man, I'm kind of good atthis stuff.
And uh so I guess confidence uhwould go along with that
(06:19):
structure, uh, which thencontinued to evolve into
leadership and to Jason's point,you know, management skills and
and those sorts of things.
But uh it was the structure thatI needed.
Um uh the refinement ofdiscipline for sure uh would was
uh was a huge benefit for me.
Um and just that sense ofadventure, you know, I really
(06:42):
needed a huge uh reboot, so tospeak, uh, in the mid-90s and uh
to completely get away from youknow my environment and to give
this entire new environment achance uh was was scary.
And uh but leaning into that umthe result was increased
(07:06):
confidence and organizationskills and and discipline and
all those things.
So challenges were just thoseunknowns.
Um, you know, the challenge ofwhat am I getting into here?
You know, I I know nothing aboutthis this world, you know, I I I
grew up with no inkling ofjoining the military.
(07:28):
Um so the unknowns was a bigchallenge.
Um uh again to Jason's point, Ithink working with others, uh,
you know, other other othercultures, um other areas of the
United States, you know, uhtraveling, just all of these,
(07:48):
all of these things that werenew to me, you know, having
grown up in a uh relativelysmall town in Ohio, um,
realizing that the world was wasso big uh and vast, and that
world became even biggerthroughout my career.
But I think I think the biggestchallenge would be uh doing it
alone, you know, uh reallystepping away uh from family,
(08:10):
stepping away from home,stepping away from the comforts
of the known and uh and andleaning into this to this
unknown.
That was that was a bigchallenge for me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Um yeah, I think my theme is the growth what grow
through what you go through.
And um, I think both were umassets and challenges or
strengths and challenges.
Um I think when I um look backat what I gained from the
military was definitely thoseleadership skills, those
management skills that have likeserved me well in civilian life
(08:44):
and um the resilience, themental toughness, the
confidence, um, the physicalfitness and the ability to, you
know, kind of stay stay fit.
Um and so I think all of thosethings through you know, through
all the challenges, which youcan't even like, you know, um
we're trying to like all thesememories that come back and all
(09:05):
the different challenges youfaced and how um difficult they
were, but how exciting and howhow fun.
And I think that just that senseof teamwork that you have in the
military, that um the ability tobring together all these diverse
people like we were talkingabout, but create a team that's
focused on you know servingtheir country ultimately um and
(09:27):
defending the constitution.
And that's where like, you know,I think that um that greatest um
sense of pride, I think, for me,and especially um serving in the
national capital region wherethat was ultimately, you know,
we're literally defending theconstitution.
Um and so that was one of thegreatest um missions of my and
opportunities of my career wasto do that.
(09:49):
And um, and we had a verydiverse team in that um in my
battalion, and and we we um dida great job and and I love all
those soldiers, and um, and thatwas just an amazing part of my
career.
On the flip side of that, right,some of the challenges that
we've touched on, and I was adual military family, so my
spouse and I both served.
We had to, you know, navigatecareer challenges.
(10:12):
We were both the same rank.
We had to navigate careerchallenges, we had to navigate
deployments, taking care of twochildren.
Um, and so I don't, I, you know,I I really wouldn't have been
able to do it without my spouse,Joe Gabriel, who's also a
retired lieutenant colonel andwho also is a veteran of Iraq
and Afghanistan.
(10:32):
And um, so having another spousethat understood what um what you
were going through was achallenge, was an asset and
sometimes a challenge because alot of times, you know, I think
as as physically fit and asresilient we are, I think kind
of the theme of this is we don'toften take care of ourselves
truly mentally.
Um, and so those are definitelysome of the challenges that I
(10:56):
see, not only for myself, butyou know, just for the veterans
I work with today.
So I think, you know, just beingable to grow through what you go
through.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
And and that brings us to that conversation about
mental health, mental wellness,taking care of your brain
health.
When you joined the military andand compare those to when you
left the military, were thereconversations around taking care
of your mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
I mean, when I got into the military was, you know,
the early 90s.
And um, you know, that justwasn't a part of the
conversation.
That was a part of your yourwhole military upbringing.
Uh, and it wasn't until, youknow, later on we started to try
to have, you know, after uh 20years of of the Iraq and um
(11:43):
Afghanistan conflict that westarted to have maybe more
conversations about thesethings.
And I still don't think thatthey resonate very well,
unfortunately, um, for a lot ofreasons.
But and I think it takesindividuals to go through
certain things and to come outthe other end um successfully,
to share their stories and to beable to say, like, hey, you you
can do this.
(12:04):
Um, so so unfortunately, I don'tthink it was part of the
conversation.
And I'm glad it is starting tobecome more of a conversation.
In fact, I think sometimes weundermine each other.
We don't help each other seekhelp.
And um, I I remember differenttimes where um, you know, I just
I just heard certain messagesfrom at different times of my
(12:25):
career, which really kind ofundermined the uh uh ability for
people to seek help or want toseek help.
Um, and so I think that whileit's gotten better, it it it
needs to, we need to be havereal talk and real stories and
be honest with each other.
SPEAKER_03 (12:41):
Yeah, I can remember uh just having briefings and
things like that, you know, uhsay something, the open door
policies, uh things of thatnature.
But um I don't think any of usreally understood what was going
on with regards to mental healthor depression or anxiety or all
of those things.
Um, you know, being a Gen X typekid, you know, latch key and you
(13:05):
just kind of figure it out andand just grind through it.
I think that uh at least for me,that mentality is is kind of
what the army was or themilitary was to a large degree,
uh, maybe up until just the last10 or 15 years or so.
Unfortunately, uh two decades ofwar, that realization that,
yeah, there's some things weneed to talk about here.
(13:27):
Um but early on, at least thefirst half or or or more of my
career, I I don't reallyremember any um focus on, hey,
let's talk about these things.
And uh and a lot of it, it it atleast in in my career field, was
(13:47):
uh you begin to share uh theseconcerns, you begin to share
these issues.
Uh it can be perceived asweakness, uh, not only
internally, you know, am I weak,but externally, do they think
I'm weak.
Uh and then how does that affectmy career?
How does that affect my abilityto get advanced training, to get
(14:08):
deployments, just all of thethings?
And uh again, going back to thiskind of Gen X mindset of just
bury it and move forward, um,the realization that uh we've
buried these things, or at leastin my experience, I've buried so
much uh that how do I reach downand revisit and reprocess in
(14:33):
order to let all of that stuffgo?
Because in my experience, theseburied feelings are the core to
my anxiety.
It was the core to my anger, itwas the core to my uh addictive
behaviors and alcohol abuse andall of the things.
Uh, but it wasn't until I beganto explore what I've buried uh
(14:54):
through the power ofvulnerability, ultimately
surrendering to this andtrusting others uh that my
healing journey began.
And uh it's still a process, butum that process is so very
empowering and liberating.
But uh, and that's that's what Ihope in this current generation
is that we're able to processthat near real time versus
(15:16):
burying it and moving forward.
If you had spoken up, would thathave hurt your careers?
That's a great question.
Uh would it have?
Maybe.
Um, you know, I I hate to lookback and what if anything.
Uh but in my perspective at thattime would be a hard yes.
Uh looking back in hindsightwith the clarity or the pain of
(15:39):
hindsight.
Yeah, it's just it's the it'sthe it's the journey that Nicole
uh alluded to.
Um, you know, I just don't wantmy hope is that mental health is
a priority and that with thatclarity and that power of
vulnerability, it it makes thosein these warrior careers um even
(16:02):
better at what they're doing uhand in and even more powerful.
I just think that that power ofvulnerability and that and that
shared um struggle, uh, it'sjust going to make everybody
else better in the long term.
SPEAKER_04 (16:18):
So for me, join you know, joining the military in
the 90s, just like Nicole andSean said, it was not something
that they really talked about.
I remember being at my firstduty station at Fort Hood,
Texas.
If we would have brought thesethings up, it would have been
like on the no-no list.
But at the same time, I rememberaround roughly around 2007 when
the Department of Defense didhave that shift where we went
(16:41):
from reactive to proactive.
You know, fast forward, we nowwe call that upstream
prevention.
So there was a shift in 2007,which ironically, that is also
when I got involved withprevention work.
And so I can say for that atleast half of my career, I was
prevention focused, but at thesame time, I wasn't naive.
(17:02):
I knew that just because I wasbought into prevention doesn't
mean other soldiers and servicemembers were bought in as well.
It was just something we didn'ttalk about.
In fact, when I retired in 2019,when I remember when I did my VA
um claim, you know, uh duringthe questionnaire, when I got to
the mental health question.
(17:22):
Now, I unfortunately I did nothave any mental health concerns,
but I remember as soon as I sawthe question, I read half it and
clicked no without even thinkingabout it.
And I was someone who wasworking in the field.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Well, I want to kind of talk a little bit more about
those misconceptions, the mythsaround mental health and and
armed services.
And we're talking about how somethings have evolved.
Can you help people who haven'tdon't have military service?
Because for like almost 99% ofAmericans, we don't we don't
touch the military service.
(17:56):
Um military service in families,about less than 1% or right
around 1% of the uh U.S.
population.
Help us understand those myths,those misconceptions, and how we
can support the military servicemember as well as the the
veteran.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
Well, I think the one myth is, and I think is that
you know, we're all broken insome way.
Um and maybe everybody, doesn'tmatter whether you're a veteran
or not, we're all a littlebroken in some way.
Uh, but I think that we alsoneed to we need to be able to
support everybody who's who'swho has um served at the same
(18:34):
time recognize that um we'realso strong, very people.
It's kind of like the dialectic.
It's it's like we can be brokenand be strong, you know.
And so I think we have toconsider that um you know, that
helping the veteran is is isit's probably similar to first
responders and um othercommunities that have to do very
(18:56):
difficult things and and dotraumatic things and experience
a lot of trauma.
Um and so it but I think that rum whether you're an employer,
whether you're a um, you know, afamily member, whether you're a
community member, you know, thatthat we have served and we have
done a lot of things and we'vedone a lot of difficult things.
(19:17):
And some of us have done very,very hard things, and some of us
haven't come back from thosethose things.
And we have to, we all as acommunity like live with all of
the all of the things that havehappened.
And so they they start to addup, right?
They start to add up whether youthink you um and then you try to
bury it.
You try to bury it and stuff itdown.
(19:38):
And when that doesn't helpmentally, right, sometimes we go
to substances or other things tohelp cope with those things.
So um it's you know, in the lineof work that I do with veterans,
for example, now and the workthat I've done with the Ohio
National Guard, either as aservice member or um in the
prevention world, you know,there's there's kind of a theme.
(19:59):
And um, and it starts with youngpeople who um don't learn how to
how to cope with things verywell, they don't have the
healthy coping skills, and soand some of them end up uh dying
by suicide because they haverelationship issues, they have
other issues in their life.
And so we have to be able to setthe foundation for those young
(20:25):
people to serve and be resilientand move forward in their lives
and understand that it's it'sokay to ask for help.
Um and the families too, likethe families go through a lot of
things.
Families go through many, manythings.
They have to endure deployments,they have to endure their uh
service member gone, they haveto wonder if they're gonna come
back, they have to take care ofchildren, they have to balance
(20:47):
their own careers perhaps.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent things um that it that
we endure.
Um, and it's I think it's justbest to to to engage and reach
out and not be afraid to, Iguess, is the other thing.
So I think sometimes they'reafraid to ask or to talk.
Um, but just maybe, you know,just reach out.
If you know a military family,reach out.
Just say, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
You know?
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Jason and Sean, I'm thinking about both of you and
that um you were part of a videothat we put together from the
the ruckwalk from uh what a fewweeks ago.
And both of you said somethingthat Nicole just touched on, and
that is and and and we hear moreand more veterans and and men
and women uh currently servingsaying it's okay not to be okay.
SPEAKER_04 (21:30):
You know, if you think about how how we treat
certain things in life, we havedifferent rules.
So we were never shame someonefor knowing how to swim when
they fall into the water.
Right.
But yet we look at peopledifferently when they ask for
help when they need help.
Right.
It's the same thing.
It's like taking care ofyourself.
But we create these uniquecriteria for how we address
(21:51):
that.
SPEAKER_03 (21:52):
Yeah, bridging the gap between civilians and
veterans, I think, is uh animportant topic.
Uh it comes down tocommunication, you know, just
asking questions and having aconversation.
That stigma of am I labeleddamaged goods?
And uh it's important for for meas a veteran, for for us as
(22:14):
veterans, I'm I'm assuming thatuh that because I'm a veteran, I
fall into this category ofdamaged goods or PTSD or all of
the things.
And um, you know, there's somuch relatability to civilians
with that regard.
You know, trauma is trauma, youknow, and it's all a matter of
(22:35):
of perspective.
And uh, you know, your trauma isdifferent than my trauma, but
it's all the same.
And uh what a wonderfulopportunity to to relate and
have a conversation around thatand and share successes and
share challenges and andunderstand that uh you know,
we're just navigating this humanexperience together.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Can I also add too, I think um as a pro as a
clinician, as a LPCC, I thinkthe other thing I would say, if
there's any providers listening,that you know, be become uh
military culture competent.
And um if you know, if youthere's star behavioral health
providers, I'll put a plug infor that.
So that's a great way to gettraining, uh free CEs and get
(23:21):
training to become moreculturally competent, military
cultural competent uh throughthe Star Behavioral Health
Training or through any otheropportunities for the VA and
other uh resources that are outthere.
So um that's another way forproviders to be to help veterans
as well.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
When each of you left the military and started
that that integration intocivilian life, um, what were the
challenges there?
Sean, do you mind starting usoff?
SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
Uh sure.
Yeah, I categorized that into acouple different phases for me.
Um I had come off of active dutyuh my first tour in the late 90s
and uh and transitioned into theOhio National Guard, you know,
the plan of the GI Bill andcollege and all that stuff
actually worked out well.
Um and then there was the phasekind of post-9-11 and
(24:12):
post-global war on terror uhcoming out of that phase.
Again, the the transition wasn'ttoo bad uh with with some
semblance of a of a plan.
And and uh, but my hardesttransition was after retirement,
and that was the loss ofidentity.
(24:36):
Uh, I think for me, uh retiringand getting rid of all of the
accesses and the dot-mill, youknow, email accounts and just
all of the things and puttingthe uniform away, there was this
sense of loss of identity that Ifound myself desperately holding
(24:57):
on to uh after I retired in2016.
And like, you know, what'swhat's next?
You know, am I a soldier?
Am I a Green Beret?
You know, just all of the all ofthose identities.
And um and as I struggled withthat in those first couple of
years, um I found myself uhneeding to cope to some degree,
(25:23):
you know, and those copingmechanisms became addictive
behaviors and such.
Uh I probably fell into thecategory of highly functional
within those uh behaviors, butuh those began to evolve to a to
a greater degree up until thepandemic era.
(25:44):
And that's when I realized I'mreally struggling here and I'm
still transitioning and I'mstill looking for a purpose.
And what what is this purpose?
So um leaning into that uh waswas very, very difficult.
Um early transitions I thinkwere easier because I still felt
(26:06):
some connection to thatidentity, uh, to that purpose,
to that mission.
Uh and then when the realizationof what's next began to dawn on
me.
Um, and again, that journey intothe unknown, am I prepared?
You know, what what's going onhere?
And I was raising, you know,three boys and and uh, you know,
(26:28):
doing the suburban dad stuff.
And am I good at this?
You know, will I still be ableto do that?
You know, if I'm failing atthis, does it mean I'm failing
at that?
And just this uh feedback loopof um that inner critic became
louder and louder.
Uh so you know, lots of work forme uh with regard to you know
mental health practices andtechniques and um to calm that
(26:52):
inner critic down and tobasically give myself grace uh
was a big part of my healingjourney.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
Can we ask?
Uh, did you seek professionalhelp?
Did you talk to a therapist or acounselor?
SPEAKER_03 (27:03):
I did.
Uh I did all of the kind ofWestern medicine, you know, um
therapy, talk therapy, uh, butwith both with the VA and on the
civilian side.
And uh yeah, I'm a bit of aknucklehead, so to speak, and
you know, um think that I canfigure it out myself and those
sorts of things.
(27:23):
And uh, you know, this therapistdoesn't get me and they don't
understand, and just all all ofthe all of the excuses.
So in those early uh moments ofof therapy and mental health
work, I just wasn't ready.
You know, I I still thought thatI could figure it out myself and
uh understanding that that uhalthough the ego uh very much
(27:47):
served me, you know, uh early onin my career, that that ego was
uh, you know, there's a sayingthat uh the ego is a wonderful
servant, but a terrible master.
And the realization that the egowas uh calling the shots uh uh
and then uh understanding thatand the awareness of that
(28:09):
allowed me to navigate thishuman experience a little bit
more balanced.
But uh, and then there were someother opportunities for me uh
with regards to mental health,um, both veteran retreats and
holistic wellness retreats andsome unconventional wellness
retreats that uh I was able totake a part of.
And it was is in the learning ofuh of those retreats with
(28:34):
others, uh, and the company ofothers that are suffering and um
and this learning from eachother's successes and challenges
and each other's journeys.
There's just so much wisdom wecan learn from conversations
with others, and then having theawareness to apply that and
integrate that into our ownhealing journey uh has been
(28:54):
where I has been my journey thelast couple of years, and um
which is what brings me to mypurpose today is to uh continue
to have conversations withothers that are struggling, uh,
just to help them realize thatyou know, give yourself grace
and everything's happening for areason and and continue to lean
(29:16):
into being vulnerable and andcommunicating.
SPEAKER_04 (29:19):
So the biggest challenge for me was so and the
the other two can uh can agreewith this because they saw it
too.
In the military, everything islike missing mission essential.
Like what what am I doing thatimpacts the unit readiness?
So you're always focused on thebigger picture and not just
yourself.
And that's just instilled in youfrom the beginning in the
(29:41):
military.
And when you leave, you realizethat is not how civilians think.
And so sometimes you I findmyself getting frustrated, like
you know, guys, gals, we'rewe're we're getting worried
about the things that don'tmatter.
Like, how does this impact thebigger picture?
And it took about a year for meto realize it's because that's
(30:02):
not what they're trained on.
And I think we all have toremind ourselves that that we
can't blame people for what theydon't know.
But we can't force our beliefson them as well.
So even though I've been out forsix years, that's still a
struggle sometimes because Ifind myself not understanding
why people are impacted by thelittle things.
But it's like that's because oftraining in the military.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
I would totally agree um with what Sean and
Jason have said.
And I think for me, um I thinkit like that it goes back to the
identity.
That's a big thing.
Um because the veteran identityis a sh it's a strong thing.
It's a it's a great thing thatcan serve you well and it's
something that can bite youlater on too.
And you know it's got on bothsides of the spectrum.
(30:45):
But I was a mentor in um at theMarysville reformatory and um
and that identity was there inin for with women who are
incarcerated.
I mean so that that goes far.
It reaches far.
And and sometimes that's thatcan serve you well like I said
and it helps you because whenyou're with other veterans.
(31:06):
I mean I work um I remember whenI started back at the recovery
center and I started this jobsupporting a veteran treatment
court for Fairfield County andthe probation I was introduced
to the probation officer who wasan Air Force veteran and it you
know it's just you just clickyou know so you veterans just
click with other veterans.
It just it just happens and sothat's that's one thing that's
great when you're in a civiliancommunity that you can still
(31:29):
click with other veterans.
But I think for me I had severaldifferent transitions.
I had a transition from activeduty to pure civilian life and
then I often had um transitionswithin the National Guard for
example over the course of mydeployments coming back from a
deployment back into the activeguard um you know my active
(31:51):
guard job into the people thatum so it was almost like a
civilian transition but um butjust a little different.
And um and then the finaltransition as a you know when I
retired out of the NationalGuard and military service
completely.
And through all of thosetransitions I would say whether
they were you know specificallyto civilian life or not um they
(32:16):
were difficult.
They were just difficult becauseeven your own fellow veterans
sometimes don't get what youwent through back uh when
they're back here and you werewherever you were doing whatever
you were doing.
And sometimes you can kind offeel like I know when I came
back from the NCR, I felt like Iwent from being a hero to a
zero.
(32:36):
And um and that was difficult.
And I had a lot of careerchoices to make at that point in
time.
And um and that was one of thetimes that I felt at my lowest
was transitioning back from thatdeployment.
And that was actually I'll admitthat's a time where I had a lot
of suicidal thoughts and Ifinally realized I had to go get
some help because um I wasn'tgonna navigate this by myself.
(32:59):
And um and the other time Ithink I saw mental health was um
at the end of my deployment toKuwait I was just getting so
frustrated you get so angry andso frustrated even with your own
team that you're just like Ijust need somebody else to talk
to that isn't going to that isin my unit that you know even if
it's just that so those weresome of the times that I sought
um mental health assistance.
(33:22):
And um and so those are sothat's why I think it's
important for us to realize thattalking to a counselor is is is
just someone else to talk tosometimes and and sometimes you
need more evidence-based therapyum in EMDR or whatever but if
you just also just need someoneto talk to that is not going to
give you advice or tell you whatto do but just give you
(33:45):
something um some non-judgmentalspace to speak to that's that's
what what I recommend to peopletoo.
But yeah transitioning isdifficult again throughout all
of our careers and um and Ithink that being able to
recognize when you need help isalso really important because we
(34:05):
can fall into alcohol use andsubstance use we can fall into
those unhealthy coping skillsand we need to find better ways
to support each other when weeven when we leave the military
service we really should um Ithink we need to stay connected.
It's our it's our tribe andthat's that's something that
(34:25):
being connected with otherveterans can be also very
helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
How do you stay connected to the the the veteran
community?
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
Well that's a good question.
I don't know that I've navigatedthat very well sometimes it's
just by virtue of you know someof the people I work with now
who are um you know like theprobation officer I work with or
um the veteran uh mentor who'sin our court system um you know
or just getting invited to someof these things and connecting
(34:55):
with other fellow veterans orjust running into them uh when I
was at Ohio State and we wereyou know honored at the Ohio
State game of just reconnectingwith some of the people from uh
ROTC that I was in uh at OhioState with but I don't know it's
a good question I can't say thatI've done a good job of it
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Well I I wanna I want to point out uh that what
Nicole is talking about um theshe has been inducted into the
Ohio State University ROTC Hallof Fame.
Congratulations thank you andthey had a they had a a ceremony
during the military appreciationgame between Ohio State and
UCLA.
SPEAKER_02 (35:28):
So congratulations Nicole that's great Jason we
know that you stay connectedbecause well you kind of have to
with your job here at OSPF.
So to follow up on Stephanie'squestion talk about that
connection staying connected anduh connected uh with with men
and women in uniform or who worethe uniform.
SPEAKER_04 (35:45):
So I have to be honest that outside of my role I
am like Nicole where I don'treally connect with veterans
outside of my full-time jobwhere I've like kind of close
that off by choice but on my thework side uh I do serve as the
um co-lead for the OhioGovernor's challenge team uh
with a good friend of mine DannyEakins over the Higher
Department of Veteran Servicesand part of our job is obviously
(36:08):
connecting with other veteranswhich is why I have another
relationship with Nicole outsideuh of the military it's because
she was a part of that beforemoving to her new position.
So it is our job to stayconnected and inform the state
of Ohio about the greatresources that our veterans have
while also working with theother states and territories on
their governor's challenge teamas well.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Sean how about staying connected do you want to
touch on that?
SPEAKER_03 (36:32):
90 plus percent of my mission now is uh not only
staying connected but connectingothers um and to Jason's point
and Nicole's point too uh in thebeginning uh of my transition
after retirement uh simplyconnecting with other veterans
as as goofy as it sounds wasvery triggering uh to be around
(36:55):
other veterans and uh kind ofthis sharing of stories and
sharing of challenges andsuccesses and all of those
things were uh as much as Iprobably needed it at the time,
it was more triggering than itwas beneficial for me.
And I found myself in you knowconstantly comparing or
remembering or or wanting youknow the good old days type
(37:17):
stuff.
And uh and in the last couple ofyears of of my healing journey
I'm realizing that connection isthe catalyst to healing you know
community is that catalyst tohealing and uh and we have to to
stay connected and and we haveto be vulnerable.
And uh so in that effort ofconnectedness um I'm lucky
(37:41):
enough to be a part of ofseveral you know veteran mental
health groups and and several uhveteran uh outdoor groups and uh
you know athletic event groupsand uh just a lot of uh
connectedness in the outdoorspace uh and in the activity
space uh not so much justsitting around in a circle and
(38:04):
sharing feelings and stuff whichthere's nothing wrong with that
uh but it's like hey let's getout and get moving uh in nature
and let's unplug and let's uhyou know the more we disconnect
from that uh from thoseunnatural environments just
allows us to connect even deeperin the natural environment and
(38:24):
uh that's where I see so muchmore healing and uh and and in
those moments of connecting uhparticularly in these in these
outdoor elements um it createsthis safe space you know it
creates this container of trustand uh and you see that you know
(38:45):
you can see that in the otherveterans that show up and they
show up a little bit hesitantthey show up a little bit like
you know I don't really know whothese people are and what their
background is and all thesethings but um as the
conversations uh begin tomanifest and that trust begins
to develop you see the the wallsof that vulnerability start to
(39:07):
show I mean you see thevulnerability uh begin to
emanate and in that is where thehealing begins and the
conversations will go from thisis a great event you know I love
you know running or rucking orriding my bike or or whatever
but you know it's been reallyrough for me the past few weeks
or you know it's hard for me tocommunicate with my wife or it's
(39:30):
hard for me to do this with mykid and uh you know I I can't
shake this memory of mydeployment from 15 years ago or
whatever.
And we just hold space forthose.
Uh to Nicole's point earlierit's not about giving advice or
telling somebody, hey,everything's going to be okay.
It's just I'm here to listen,you know, I'm going to listen to
(39:53):
you and I'm going to uh listenwith compassion and empathy.
And with that I believe uh itbegins to strengthen this
ability for those that aresuffering to begin to trust and
trust others, uh trust their ownstory, uh trust that they can
(40:14):
share their story and uh and allof these elements are just this
ingredients to healing andingredients to peace.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Well as we start to wrap it up if you could each
tell us a little bit about whatyou would tell what your current
self, your older, your older,more experienced self not that
anyone's old not that anyone'sold here.
That's right.
What would you tell your youngerselves um when you're first
beginning your military careerJason?
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
Well first I would smile and then I would laugh and
there's a reason why I wouldlaugh because I would remind
myself to give myself somegrace.
Like we try to like speed theprocess up when we're younger
and not realizing that there'sso many external factors that we
can't control.
But at the same time you cancontrol how you react or respond
(41:04):
to those external factors.
So most important thing giveyourself some grace.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Yeah I think to Sean's point too, you know,
we're human beings but we'realways human doings and um we
don't spend a lot of time justenjoying the moment.
I I know just to even touch onwhat Sean said just a minute ago
when I left the military Icouldn't feel my body you know
like you didn't know how muchhow many aches and pains that
(41:31):
you had in your body until it isjust the adrenaline started to
leave you after 20 some oddyears and you just start to
notice that.
And so looking back at my uhyounger self, I would say just
just enjoy the things thatyou're doing.
Just take time to savor them.
You're always in a hurry and youalways got to do the next thing
and you're always on a time hackand everything's got to be
(41:52):
synchronized and and your lifebecomes that way.
And sometimes we just need toslow down and enjoy the the the
savor the moments that we havewith these other people that
we're doing these difficultthings with and also give
yourself grace and um and alsofor me just don't doubt
yourself.
Like a lot of times I I doubtedum doubted myself a lot and um
(42:14):
and I shouldn't have done that.
So I'd just like to tell myselfto not do that.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Yeah a couple things come to mind um I think it's be
more present and do not forceand uh and with those two you
know we're constantly thinkingof achieving the next rank you
know achieving the nextspecialty school achieving the
next thing you know we're alwaysuh which is good you know I you
(42:40):
know it's it's good to have aplan and a purpose and and all
those things but to not forgetto be in in the present moment
uh and and really enjoy what'swhat's happening now and uh as I
look back with hindsight andagain hindsight is just this
wild you know superpower thatcan be both beautiful and and
(43:01):
and very um uh create strugglebut uh as I look back on all of
the things that I try to forcein my career it is the forcing
of doing that thing or forcingthat achievement uh is where I
realized lots of suffering camewith that and to go more with
(43:22):
the flow and to lean more intomy own into intuition and and to
trust myself versus forcing uhuh these decisions um just
leaning more into into theintuition of it all the first um
therapist I had um at a collegeuh had at a real rough spot in
(43:44):
my life and went to a gentlemanhis name was John and he said
after we got through severalsessions he said you're pushing
the river don't push the riverbut that was what he was talking
about you're just you're justforcing things you know and
you're grinding and just it's aguiding light for me.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
So I appreciate you sharing that Sean Thanks to all
of you for sharing everythingthat you did.
These are all just great greatnotes to end on thank you all
for your service to our countryand for continuing to be just a
shining light of resilience ofempathy and of care.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
And to our listeners thank you as well when you
listen to our episodes you breakstigmas break barriers and you
care about mental health andsaving lives.
This is Voices for SuicidePrevention brought to you by the
Ohio Suicide PreventionFoundation
Welcome everyone to our latest episode of Voices for
Suicide Prevention.
As we like to say, ourconversations here are real
talk, real honest, real life.
I'm Scott Light.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
And I'm Stephanie Booker.
We are always honored to talkabout issues, challenges, and
yes, the victories for veteranswho have served our country.
There's real momentum now inmany sectors of America's armed
forces to talk about mentalhealth and break stigmas and
help our men and women who wearor once wore the uniform.
We have three distinguishedvisitors and vet We have three
(00:37):
distinguished veterans with ustoday.
Today, she's clinical directorand veteran services coordinator
(01:00):
at the Recovery Center inLancaster.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
Master Sergeant retired Sean Clifton is with us
as well.
Twenty-two years of service inthe U.S.
Army and Ohio Army NationalGuard.
He's a Green Beret, who iswounded in combat in
Afghanistan.
Today, Sean is an independentconsultant and peer support
ambassador for veterans' mentalhealth and wellness.
And Sergeant First Class retiredJason Hughes joins us as well.
(01:23):
22 years of service in the U.S.
Army and Ohio Army NationalGuard.
Jason served in Operation NobleEagle, served in South Korea as
well.
And today he's an executiveright here at OSPF as program
manager and veterans liaison.
Welcome all.
It's good to have you all.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Thank you.
Well, let's go around the tablewith each of you.
And let's just start withNicole, if you don't mind.
Why did you serve?
Was there a reason why youserved?
And where did that calling comefrom?
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yeah, so I was actually one of those folks who
I was a very shy high schoolstudent.
And my dad was like, why don'tyou try ROTC?
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
What's that?
And so I ended up going to OhioState and I did it for the
college money initially.
I'll just admit that.
But once I got into ROTC andthen into my career, active army
(02:16):
career, I found that, you know,it's just this sense of, you
know, I've always had that senseof wanting to serve a greater
purpose.
And I found that calling andserving my country and it just
kind of blossomed from there.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Great.
Sean, where'd that calling comefrom?
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
For me, the uh wasn't necessarily a calling, so
to speak, uh, as it was a um uha need to be more responsible in
in life choices.
Um I was finding myselfstruggling as a college student
and uh more mixed up in thesocial scene than the study
habits.
And uh it just came to a pointin my life, um, you know, as a
(02:55):
as a 19, 20-year-old, where Ijust found myself um needing to
make a more responsible lifechoice.
And uh and I decided justindependently to pursue a
military career.
And uh and that was really thecatalyst to adult responsibility
for me.
Uh I I look back on thatdecision-making process as my
(03:19):
very first real adult decision.
And uh, and then after I decidedto join, uh, you know, much like
Nicole, I yeah, I knew the GIBill would come with that, and
some veteran benefits would comewith that, and and uh, and maybe
some experience and some skillsthat I can apply uh to college,
yeah, if if I give it a secondchance, which I did.
(03:41):
And um, so yeah, I was a bit ofa lost kid and the military
helped me out.
Jason, what about you?
SPEAKER_04 (03:47):
So I grew up in a tiny little county in Ohio,
Highland County.
So I wanted to get out and seethe world.
And I'd always knew I wanted tojoin the military.
I remember I used to love thosebe all you can be army
commercials as a kid.
And so to like expedite thatprocess, I actually did the
delayed entry program in 1997.
So I signed up for the Army inApril while I was still a senior
(04:10):
in high school and thengraduated in May and was in
basic training in July.
Like I just went straight there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (04:16):
One of the best decisions, hard decision, but it
was one of the best decisions Iever made.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
Well, let's start with you, Jason, then we'll go
back around.
Uh let's let's just continue totalk about kind of a the life
arc and and career arc for eachof you.
What are the greatest assets ofmilitary life and and how it
shaped you as a young person andstill today?
And then we'll layer on top ofthat.
Um, what were the greatestchallenges in military life?
SPEAKER_04 (04:39):
Uh for me, it's gotta be discipline and
organizational skills.
I even though I've been out uhretired six years ago, I'm still
very disciplined with myschedule, eating, physical
fitness, like how I you know domy entire day.
And it's you know, helped me bevery organized in my life.
I almost know down to the minutewhat I'm gonna do.
(05:01):
Some may say that's a crutch,but for me it works because I'm
always thinking ahead about whatI need to do.
That way I can capitalize on mydowntime because I know how much
downtime I have because I planfor it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
What about challenges?
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Challenges would be um you're uh coming together
with so many people who havedifferent beliefs, different
backgrounds, differentexperiences, and and trying to
find that uh even ground whereyou could fit in with these
folks.
Uh it's fun, but it can be verychallenging because it's so many
different beliefs comingtogether to serve one common
mission for the military.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Yeah, coming into the military, I was just so full
of energy and the need to dosomething.
And I think that um I justdidn't have a particular
mission, right?
Yeah, I didn't have anyboundaries left or right, you
know, either due to uh myupbringing or, you know, lack of
(05:58):
boundaries uh or whatever.
And um it was the structure thatI needed uh that the military
provided me.
And uh along with thatstructure, just that um belief
that, man, I'm kind of good atthis stuff.
And uh so I guess confidence uhwould go along with that
(06:19):
structure, uh, which thencontinued to evolve into
leadership and to Jason's point,you know, management skills and
and those sorts of things.
But uh it was the structure thatI needed.
Um uh the refinement ofdiscipline for sure uh would was
uh was a huge benefit for me.
Um and just that sense ofadventure, you know, I really
(06:42):
needed a huge uh reboot, so tospeak, uh, in the mid-90s and uh
to completely get away from youknow my environment and to give
this entire new environment achance uh was was scary.
And uh but leaning into that umthe result was increased
(07:06):
confidence and organizationskills and and discipline and
all those things.
So challenges were just thoseunknowns.
Um, you know, the challenge ofwhat am I getting into here?
You know, I I know nothing aboutthis this world, you know, I I I
grew up with no inkling ofjoining the military.
(07:28):
Um so the unknowns was a bigchallenge.
Um uh again to Jason's point, Ithink working with others, uh,
you know, other other othercultures, um other areas of the
United States, you know, uhtraveling, just all of these,
(07:48):
all of these things that werenew to me, you know, having
grown up in a uh relativelysmall town in Ohio, um,
realizing that the world was wasso big uh and vast, and that
world became even biggerthroughout my career.
But I think I think the biggestchallenge would be uh doing it
alone, you know, uh reallystepping away uh from family,
(08:10):
stepping away from home,stepping away from the comforts
of the known and uh and andleaning into this to this
unknown.
That was that was a bigchallenge for me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Um yeah, I think my theme is the growth what grow
through what you go through.
And um, I think both were umassets and challenges or
strengths and challenges.
Um I think when I um look backat what I gained from the
military was definitely thoseleadership skills, those
management skills that have likeserved me well in civilian life
(08:44):
and um the resilience, themental toughness, the
confidence, um, the physicalfitness and the ability to, you
know, kind of stay stay fit.
Um and so I think all of thosethings through you know, through
all the challenges, which youcan't even like, you know, um
we're trying to like all thesememories that come back and all
(09:05):
the different challenges youfaced and how um difficult they
were, but how exciting and howhow fun.
And I think that just that senseof teamwork that you have in the
military, that um the ability tobring together all these diverse
people like we were talkingabout, but create a team that's
focused on you know servingtheir country ultimately um and
(09:27):
defending the constitution.
And that's where like, you know,I think that um that greatest um
sense of pride, I think, for me,and especially um serving in the
national capital region wherethat was ultimately, you know,
we're literally defending theconstitution.
Um and so that was one of thegreatest um missions of my and
opportunities of my career wasto do that.
(09:49):
And um, and we had a verydiverse team in that um in my
battalion, and and we we um dida great job and and I love all
those soldiers, and um, and thatwas just an amazing part of my
career.
On the flip side of that, right,some of the challenges that
we've touched on, and I was adual military family, so my
spouse and I both served.
We had to, you know, navigatecareer challenges.
(10:12):
We were both the same rank.
We had to navigate careerchallenges, we had to navigate
deployments, taking care of twochildren.
Um, and so I don't, I, you know,I I really wouldn't have been
able to do it without my spouse,Joe Gabriel, who's also a
retired lieutenant colonel andwho also is a veteran of Iraq
and Afghanistan.
(10:32):
And um, so having another spousethat understood what um what you
were going through was achallenge, was an asset and
sometimes a challenge because alot of times, you know, I think
as as physically fit and asresilient we are, I think kind
of the theme of this is we don'toften take care of ourselves
truly mentally.
Um, and so those are definitelysome of the challenges that I
(10:56):
see, not only for myself, butyou know, just for the veterans
I work with today.
So I think, you know, just beingable to grow through what you go
through.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
And and that brings us to that conversation about
mental health, mental wellness,taking care of your brain
health.
When you joined the military andand compare those to when you
left the military, were thereconversations around taking care
of your mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
I mean, when I got into the military was, you know,
the early 90s.
And um, you know, that justwasn't a part of the
conversation.
That was a part of your yourwhole military upbringing.
Uh, and it wasn't until, youknow, later on we started to try
to have, you know, after uh 20years of of the Iraq and um
(11:43):
Afghanistan conflict that westarted to have maybe more
conversations about thesethings.
And I still don't think thatthey resonate very well,
unfortunately, um, for a lot ofreasons.
But and I think it takesindividuals to go through
certain things and to come outthe other end um successfully,
to share their stories and to beable to say, like, hey, you you
can do this.
(12:04):
Um, so so unfortunately, I don'tthink it was part of the
conversation.
And I'm glad it is starting tobecome more of a conversation.
In fact, I think sometimes weundermine each other.
We don't help each other seekhelp.
And um, I I remember differenttimes where um, you know, I just
I just heard certain messagesfrom at different times of my
(12:25):
career, which really kind ofundermined the uh uh ability for
people to seek help or want toseek help.
Um, and so I think that whileit's gotten better, it it it
needs to, we need to be havereal talk and real stories and
be honest with each other.
SPEAKER_03 (12:41):
Yeah, I can remember uh just having briefings and
things like that, you know, uhsay something, the open door
policies, uh things of thatnature.
But um I don't think any of usreally understood what was going
on with regards to mental healthor depression or anxiety or all
of those things.
Um, you know, being a Gen X typekid, you know, latch key and you
(13:05):
just kind of figure it out andand just grind through it.
I think that uh at least for me,that mentality is is kind of
what the army was or themilitary was to a large degree,
uh, maybe up until just the last10 or 15 years or so.
Unfortunately, uh two decades ofwar, that realization that,
yeah, there's some things weneed to talk about here.
(13:27):
Um but early on, at least thefirst half or or or more of my
career, I I don't reallyremember any um focus on, hey,
let's talk about these things.
And uh and a lot of it, it it atleast in in my career field, was
(13:47):
uh you begin to share uh theseconcerns, you begin to share
these issues.
Uh it can be perceived asweakness, uh, not only
internally, you know, am I weak,but externally, do they think
I'm weak.
Uh and then how does that affectmy career?
How does that affect my abilityto get advanced training, to get
(14:08):
deployments, just all of thethings?
And uh again, going back to thiskind of Gen X mindset of just
bury it and move forward, um,the realization that uh we've
buried these things, or at leastin my experience, I've buried so
much uh that how do I reach downand revisit and reprocess in
(14:33):
order to let all of that stuffgo?
Because in my experience, theseburied feelings are the core to
my anxiety.
It was the core to my anger, itwas the core to my uh addictive
behaviors and alcohol abuse andall of the things.
Uh, but it wasn't until I beganto explore what I've buried uh
(14:54):
through the power ofvulnerability, ultimately
surrendering to this andtrusting others uh that my
healing journey began.
And uh it's still a process, butum that process is so very
empowering and liberating.
But uh, and that's that's what Ihope in this current generation
is that we're able to processthat near real time versus
(15:16):
burying it and moving forward.
If you had spoken up, would thathave hurt your careers?
That's a great question.
Uh would it have?
Maybe.
Um, you know, I I hate to lookback and what if anything.
Uh but in my perspective at thattime would be a hard yes.
Uh looking back in hindsightwith the clarity or the pain of
(15:39):
hindsight.
Yeah, it's just it's the it'sthe it's the journey that Nicole
uh alluded to.
Um, you know, I just don't wantmy hope is that mental health is
a priority and that with thatclarity and that power of
vulnerability, it it makes thosein these warrior careers um even
(16:02):
better at what they're doing uhand in and even more powerful.
I just think that that power ofvulnerability and that and that
shared um struggle, uh, it'sjust going to make everybody
else better in the long term.
SPEAKER_04 (16:18):
So for me, join you know, joining the military in
the 90s, just like Nicole andSean said, it was not something
that they really talked about.
I remember being at my firstduty station at Fort Hood,
Texas.
If we would have brought thesethings up, it would have been
like on the no-no list.
But at the same time, I rememberaround roughly around 2007 when
the Department of Defense didhave that shift where we went
(16:41):
from reactive to proactive.
You know, fast forward, we nowwe call that upstream
prevention.
So there was a shift in 2007,which ironically, that is also
when I got involved withprevention work.
And so I can say for that atleast half of my career, I was
prevention focused, but at thesame time, I wasn't naive.
(17:02):
I knew that just because I wasbought into prevention doesn't
mean other soldiers and servicemembers were bought in as well.
It was just something we didn'ttalk about.
In fact, when I retired in 2019,when I remember when I did my VA
um claim, you know, uh duringthe questionnaire, when I got to
the mental health question.
(17:22):
Now, I unfortunately I did nothave any mental health concerns,
but I remember as soon as I sawthe question, I read half it and
clicked no without even thinkingabout it.
And I was someone who wasworking in the field.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Well, I want to kind of talk a little bit more about
those misconceptions, the mythsaround mental health and and
armed services.
And we're talking about how somethings have evolved.
Can you help people who haven'tdon't have military service?
Because for like almost 99% ofAmericans, we don't we don't
touch the military service.
(17:56):
Um military service in families,about less than 1% or right
around 1% of the uh U.S.
population.
Help us understand those myths,those misconceptions, and how we
can support the military servicemember as well as the the
veteran.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
Well, I think the one myth is, and I think is that
you know, we're all broken insome way.
Um and maybe everybody, doesn'tmatter whether you're a veteran
or not, we're all a littlebroken in some way.
Uh, but I think that we alsoneed to we need to be able to
support everybody who's who'swho has um served at the same
(18:34):
time recognize that um we'realso strong, very people.
It's kind of like the dialectic.
It's it's like we can be brokenand be strong, you know.
And so I think we have toconsider that um you know, that
helping the veteran is is isit's probably similar to first
responders and um othercommunities that have to do very
(18:56):
difficult things and and dotraumatic things and experience
a lot of trauma.
Um and so it but I think that rum whether you're an employer,
whether you're a um, you know, afamily member, whether you're a
community member, you know, thatthat we have served and we have
done a lot of things and we'vedone a lot of difficult things.
(19:17):
And some of us have done very,very hard things, and some of us
haven't come back from thosethose things.
And we have to, we all as acommunity like live with all of
the all of the things that havehappened.
And so they they start to addup, right?
They start to add up whether youthink you um and then you try to
bury it.
You try to bury it and stuff itdown.
(19:38):
And when that doesn't helpmentally, right, sometimes we go
to substances or other things tohelp cope with those things.
So um it's you know, in the lineof work that I do with veterans,
for example, now and the workthat I've done with the Ohio
National Guard, either as aservice member or um in the
prevention world, you know,there's there's kind of a theme.
(19:59):
And um, and it starts with youngpeople who um don't learn how to
how to cope with things verywell, they don't have the
healthy coping skills, and soand some of them end up uh dying
by suicide because they haverelationship issues, they have
other issues in their life.
And so we have to be able to setthe foundation for those young
(20:25):
people to serve and be resilientand move forward in their lives
and understand that it's it'sokay to ask for help.
Um and the families too, likethe families go through a lot of
things.
Families go through many, manythings.
They have to endure deployments,they have to endure their uh
service member gone, they haveto wonder if they're gonna come
back, they have to take care ofchildren, they have to balance
(20:47):
their own careers perhaps.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent things um that it that
we endure.
Um, and it's I think it's justbest to to to engage and reach
out and not be afraid to, Iguess, is the other thing.
So I think sometimes they'reafraid to ask or to talk.
Um, but just maybe, you know,just reach out.
If you know a military family,reach out.
Just say, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
You know?
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Jason and Sean, I'm thinking about both of you and
that um you were part of a videothat we put together from the
the ruckwalk from uh what a fewweeks ago.
And both of you said somethingthat Nicole just touched on, and
that is and and and we hear moreand more veterans and and men
and women uh currently servingsaying it's okay not to be okay.
SPEAKER_04 (21:30):
You know, if you think about how how we treat
certain things in life, we havedifferent rules.
So we were never shame someonefor knowing how to swim when
they fall into the water.
Right.
But yet we look at peopledifferently when they ask for
help when they need help.
Right.
It's the same thing.
It's like taking care ofyourself.
But we create these uniquecriteria for how we address
(21:51):
that.
SPEAKER_03 (21:52):
Yeah, bridging the gap between civilians and
veterans, I think, is uh animportant topic.
Uh it comes down tocommunication, you know, just
asking questions and having aconversation.
That stigma of am I labeleddamaged goods?
And uh it's important for for meas a veteran, for for us as
(22:14):
veterans, I'm I'm assuming thatuh that because I'm a veteran, I
fall into this category ofdamaged goods or PTSD or all of
the things.
And um, you know, there's somuch relatability to civilians
with that regard.
You know, trauma is trauma, youknow, and it's all a matter of
(22:35):
of perspective.
And uh, you know, your trauma isdifferent than my trauma, but
it's all the same.
And uh what a wonderfulopportunity to to relate and
have a conversation around thatand and share successes and
share challenges and andunderstand that uh you know,
we're just navigating this humanexperience together.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Can I also add too, I think um as a pro as a
clinician, as a LPCC, I thinkthe other thing I would say, if
there's any providers listening,that you know, be become uh
military culture competent.
And um if you know, if youthere's star behavioral health
providers, I'll put a plug infor that.
So that's a great way to gettraining, uh free CEs and get
(23:21):
training to become moreculturally competent, military
cultural competent uh throughthe Star Behavioral Health
Training or through any otheropportunities for the VA and
other uh resources that are outthere.
So um that's another way forproviders to be to help veterans
as well.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
When each of you left the military and started
that that integration intocivilian life, um, what were the
challenges there?
Sean, do you mind starting usoff?
SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
Uh sure.
Yeah, I categorized that into acouple different phases for me.
Um I had come off of active dutyuh my first tour in the late 90s
and uh and transitioned into theOhio National Guard, you know,
the plan of the GI Bill andcollege and all that stuff
actually worked out well.
Um and then there was the phasekind of post-9-11 and
(24:12):
post-global war on terror uhcoming out of that phase.
Again, the the transition wasn'ttoo bad uh with with some
semblance of a of a plan.
And and uh, but my hardesttransition was after retirement,
and that was the loss ofidentity.
(24:36):
Uh, I think for me, uh retiringand getting rid of all of the
accesses and the dot-mill, youknow, email accounts and just
all of the things and puttingthe uniform away, there was this
sense of loss of identity that Ifound myself desperately holding
(24:57):
on to uh after I retired in2016.
And like, you know, what'swhat's next?
You know, am I a soldier?
Am I a Green Beret?
You know, just all of the all ofthose identities.
And um and as I struggled withthat in those first couple of
years, um I found myself uhneeding to cope to some degree,
(25:23):
you know, and those copingmechanisms became addictive
behaviors and such.
Uh I probably fell into thecategory of highly functional
within those uh behaviors, butuh those began to evolve to a to
a greater degree up until thepandemic era.
(25:44):
And that's when I realized I'mreally struggling here and I'm
still transitioning and I'mstill looking for a purpose.
And what what is this purpose?
So um leaning into that uh waswas very, very difficult.
Um early transitions I thinkwere easier because I still felt
(26:06):
some connection to thatidentity, uh, to that purpose,
to that mission.
Uh and then when the realizationof what's next began to dawn on
me.
Um, and again, that journey intothe unknown, am I prepared?
You know, what what's going onhere?
And I was raising, you know,three boys and and uh, you know,
(26:28):
doing the suburban dad stuff.
And am I good at this?
You know, will I still be ableto do that?
You know, if I'm failing atthis, does it mean I'm failing
at that?
And just this uh feedback loopof um that inner critic became
louder and louder.
Uh so you know, lots of work forme uh with regard to you know
mental health practices andtechniques and um to calm that
(26:52):
inner critic down and tobasically give myself grace uh
was a big part of my healingjourney.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
Can we ask?
Uh, did you seek professionalhelp?
Did you talk to a therapist or acounselor?
SPEAKER_03 (27:03):
I did.
Uh I did all of the kind ofWestern medicine, you know, um
therapy, talk therapy, uh, butwith both with the VA and on the
civilian side.
And uh yeah, I'm a bit of aknucklehead, so to speak, and
you know, um think that I canfigure it out myself and those
sorts of things.
(27:23):
And uh, you know, this therapistdoesn't get me and they don't
understand, and just all all ofthe all of the excuses.
So in those early uh moments ofof therapy and mental health
work, I just wasn't ready.
You know, I I still thought thatI could figure it out myself and
uh understanding that that uhalthough the ego uh very much
(27:47):
served me, you know, uh early onin my career, that that ego was
uh, you know, there's a sayingthat uh the ego is a wonderful
servant, but a terrible master.
And the realization that the egowas uh calling the shots uh uh
and then uh understanding thatand the awareness of that
(28:09):
allowed me to navigate thishuman experience a little bit
more balanced.
But uh, and then there were someother opportunities for me uh
with regards to mental health,um, both veteran retreats and
holistic wellness retreats andsome unconventional wellness
retreats that uh I was able totake a part of.
And it was is in the learning ofuh of those retreats with
(28:34):
others, uh, and the company ofothers that are suffering and um
and this learning from eachother's successes and challenges
and each other's journeys.
There's just so much wisdom wecan learn from conversations
with others, and then having theawareness to apply that and
integrate that into our ownhealing journey uh has been
(28:54):
where I has been my journey thelast couple of years, and um
which is what brings me to mypurpose today is to uh continue
to have conversations withothers that are struggling, uh,
just to help them realize thatyou know, give yourself grace
and everything's happening for areason and and continue to lean
(29:16):
into being vulnerable and andcommunicating.
SPEAKER_04 (29:19):
So the biggest challenge for me was so and the
the other two can uh can agreewith this because they saw it
too.
In the military, everything islike missing mission essential.
Like what what am I doing thatimpacts the unit readiness?
So you're always focused on thebigger picture and not just
yourself.
And that's just instilled in youfrom the beginning in the
(29:41):
military.
And when you leave, you realizethat is not how civilians think.
And so sometimes you I findmyself getting frustrated, like
you know, guys, gals, we'rewe're we're getting worried
about the things that don'tmatter.
Like, how does this impact thebigger picture?
And it took about a year for meto realize it's because that's
(30:02):
not what they're trained on.
And I think we all have toremind ourselves that that we
can't blame people for what theydon't know.
But we can't force our beliefson them as well.
So even though I've been out forsix years, that's still a
struggle sometimes because Ifind myself not understanding
why people are impacted by thelittle things.
But it's like that's because oftraining in the military.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
I would totally agree um with what Sean and
Jason have said.
And I think for me, um I thinkit like that it goes back to the
identity.
That's a big thing.
Um because the veteran identityis a sh it's a strong thing.
It's a it's a great thing thatcan serve you well and it's
something that can bite youlater on too.
And you know it's got on bothsides of the spectrum.
(30:45):
But I was a mentor in um at theMarysville reformatory and um
and that identity was there inin for with women who are
incarcerated.
I mean so that that goes far.
It reaches far.
And and sometimes that's thatcan serve you well like I said
and it helps you because whenyou're with other veterans.
(31:06):
I mean I work um I remember whenI started back at the recovery
center and I started this jobsupporting a veteran treatment
court for Fairfield County andthe probation I was introduced
to the probation officer who wasan Air Force veteran and it you
know it's just you just clickyou know so you veterans just
click with other veterans.
It just it just happens and sothat's that's one thing that's
great when you're in a civiliancommunity that you can still
(31:29):
click with other veterans.
But I think for me I had severaldifferent transitions.
I had a transition from activeduty to pure civilian life and
then I often had um transitionswithin the National Guard for
example over the course of mydeployments coming back from a
deployment back into the activeguard um you know my active
(31:51):
guard job into the people thatum so it was almost like a
civilian transition but um butjust a little different.
And um and then the finaltransition as a you know when I
retired out of the NationalGuard and military service
completely.
And through all of thosetransitions I would say whether
they were you know specificallyto civilian life or not um they
(32:16):
were difficult.
They were just difficult becauseeven your own fellow veterans
sometimes don't get what youwent through back uh when
they're back here and you werewherever you were doing whatever
you were doing.
And sometimes you can kind offeel like I know when I came
back from the NCR, I felt like Iwent from being a hero to a
zero.
(32:36):
And um and that was difficult.
And I had a lot of careerchoices to make at that point in
time.
And um and that was one of thetimes that I felt at my lowest
was transitioning back from thatdeployment.
And that was actually I'll admitthat's a time where I had a lot
of suicidal thoughts and Ifinally realized I had to go get
some help because um I wasn'tgonna navigate this by myself.
(32:59):
And um and the other time Ithink I saw mental health was um
at the end of my deployment toKuwait I was just getting so
frustrated you get so angry andso frustrated even with your own
team that you're just like Ijust need somebody else to talk
to that isn't going to that isin my unit that you know even if
it's just that so those weresome of the times that I sought
um mental health assistance.
(33:22):
And um and so those are sothat's why I think it's
important for us to realize thattalking to a counselor is is is
just someone else to talk tosometimes and and sometimes you
need more evidence-based therapyum in EMDR or whatever but if
you just also just need someoneto talk to that is not going to
give you advice or tell you whatto do but just give you
(33:45):
something um some non-judgmentalspace to speak to that's that's
what what I recommend to peopletoo.
But yeah transitioning isdifficult again throughout all
of our careers and um and Ithink that being able to
recognize when you need help isalso really important because we
(34:05):
can fall into alcohol use andsubstance use we can fall into
those unhealthy coping skillsand we need to find better ways
to support each other when weeven when we leave the military
service we really should um Ithink we need to stay connected.
It's our it's our tribe andthat's that's something that
(34:25):
being connected with otherveterans can be also very
helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
How do you stay connected to the the the veteran
community?
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
Well that's a good question.
I don't know that I've navigatedthat very well sometimes it's
just by virtue of you know someof the people I work with now
who are um you know like theprobation officer I work with or
um the veteran uh mentor who'sin our court system um you know
or just getting invited to someof these things and connecting
(34:55):
with other fellow veterans orjust running into them uh when I
was at Ohio State and we wereyou know honored at the Ohio
State game of just reconnectingwith some of the people from uh
ROTC that I was in uh at OhioState with but I don't know it's
a good question I can't say thatI've done a good job of it
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Well I I wanna I want to point out uh that what
Nicole is talking about um theshe has been inducted into the
Ohio State University ROTC Hallof Fame.
Congratulations thank you andthey had a they had a a ceremony
during the military appreciationgame between Ohio State and
UCLA.
SPEAKER_02 (35:28):
So congratulations Nicole that's great Jason we
know that you stay connectedbecause well you kind of have to
with your job here at OSPF.
So to follow up on Stephanie'squestion talk about that
connection staying connected anduh connected uh with with men
and women in uniform or who worethe uniform.
SPEAKER_04 (35:45):
So I have to be honest that outside of my role I
am like Nicole where I don'treally connect with veterans
outside of my full-time jobwhere I've like kind of close
that off by choice but on my thework side uh I do serve as the
um co-lead for the OhioGovernor's challenge team uh
with a good friend of mine DannyEakins over the Higher
Department of Veteran Servicesand part of our job is obviously
(36:08):
connecting with other veteranswhich is why I have another
relationship with Nicole outsideuh of the military it's because
she was a part of that beforemoving to her new position.
So it is our job to stayconnected and inform the state
of Ohio about the greatresources that our veterans have
while also working with theother states and territories on
their governor's challenge teamas well.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Sean how about staying connected do you want to
touch on that?
SPEAKER_03 (36:32):
90 plus percent of my mission now is uh not only
staying connected but connectingothers um and to Jason's point
and Nicole's point too uh in thebeginning uh of my transition
after retirement uh simplyconnecting with other veterans
as as goofy as it sounds wasvery triggering uh to be around
(36:55):
other veterans and uh kind ofthis sharing of stories and
sharing of challenges andsuccesses and all of those
things were uh as much as Iprobably needed it at the time,
it was more triggering than itwas beneficial for me.
And I found myself in you knowconstantly comparing or
remembering or or wanting youknow the good old days type
(37:17):
stuff.
And uh and in the last couple ofyears of of my healing journey
I'm realizing that connection isthe catalyst to healing you know
community is that catalyst tohealing and uh and we have to to
stay connected and and we haveto be vulnerable.
And uh so in that effort ofconnectedness um I'm lucky
(37:41):
enough to be a part of ofseveral you know veteran mental
health groups and and several uhveteran uh outdoor groups and uh
you know athletic event groupsand uh just a lot of uh
connectedness in the outdoorspace uh and in the activity
space uh not so much justsitting around in a circle and
(38:04):
sharing feelings and stuff whichthere's nothing wrong with that
uh but it's like hey let's getout and get moving uh in nature
and let's unplug and let's uhyou know the more we disconnect
from that uh from thoseunnatural environments just
allows us to connect even deeperin the natural environment and
(38:24):
uh that's where I see so muchmore healing and uh and and in
those moments of connecting uhparticularly in these in these
outdoor elements um it createsthis safe space you know it
creates this container of trustand uh and you see that you know
(38:45):
you can see that in the otherveterans that show up and they
show up a little bit hesitantthey show up a little bit like
you know I don't really know whothese people are and what their
background is and all thesethings but um as the
conversations uh begin tomanifest and that trust begins
to develop you see the the wallsof that vulnerability start to
(39:07):
show I mean you see thevulnerability uh begin to
emanate and in that is where thehealing begins and the
conversations will go from thisis a great event you know I love
you know running or rucking orriding my bike or or whatever
but you know it's been reallyrough for me the past few weeks
or you know it's hard for me tocommunicate with my wife or it's
(39:30):
hard for me to do this with mykid and uh you know I I can't
shake this memory of mydeployment from 15 years ago or
whatever.
And we just hold space forthose.
Uh to Nicole's point earlierit's not about giving advice or
telling somebody, hey,everything's going to be okay.
It's just I'm here to listen,you know, I'm going to listen to
(39:53):
you and I'm going to uh listenwith compassion and empathy.
And with that I believe uh itbegins to strengthen this
ability for those that aresuffering to begin to trust and
trust others, uh trust their ownstory, uh trust that they can
(40:14):
share their story and uh and allof these elements are just this
ingredients to healing andingredients to peace.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Well as we start to wrap it up if you could each
tell us a little bit about whatyou would tell what your current
self, your older, your older,more experienced self not that
anyone's old not that anyone'sold here.
That's right.
What would you tell your youngerselves um when you're first
beginning your military careerJason?
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
Well first I would smile and then I would laugh and
there's a reason why I wouldlaugh because I would remind
myself to give myself somegrace.
Like we try to like speed theprocess up when we're younger
and not realizing that there'sso many external factors that we
can't control.
But at the same time you cancontrol how you react or respond
(41:04):
to those external factors.
So most important thing giveyourself some grace.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Yeah I think to Sean's point too, you know,
we're human beings but we'realways human doings and um we
don't spend a lot of time justenjoying the moment.
I I know just to even touch onwhat Sean said just a minute ago
when I left the military Icouldn't feel my body you know
like you didn't know how muchhow many aches and pains that
(41:31):
you had in your body until it isjust the adrenaline started to
leave you after 20 some oddyears and you just start to
notice that.
And so looking back at my uhyounger self, I would say just
just enjoy the things thatyou're doing.
Just take time to savor them.
You're always in a hurry and youalways got to do the next thing
and you're always on a time hackand everything's got to be
(41:52):
synchronized and and your lifebecomes that way.
And sometimes we just need toslow down and enjoy the the the
savor the moments that we havewith these other people that
we're doing these difficultthings with and also give
yourself grace and um and alsofor me just don't doubt
yourself.
Like a lot of times I I doubtedum doubted myself a lot and um
(42:14):
and I shouldn't have done that.
So I'd just like to tell myselfto not do that.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Yeah a couple things come to mind um I think it's be
more present and do not forceand uh and with those two you
know we're constantly thinkingof achieving the next rank you
know achieving the nextspecialty school achieving the
next thing you know we're alwaysuh which is good you know I you
(42:40):
know it's it's good to have aplan and a purpose and and all
those things but to not forgetto be in in the present moment
uh and and really enjoy what'swhat's happening now and uh as I
look back with hindsight andagain hindsight is just this
wild you know superpower thatcan be both beautiful and and
(43:01):
and very um uh create strugglebut uh as I look back on all of
the things that I try to forcein my career it is the forcing
of doing that thing or forcingthat achievement uh is where I
realized lots of suffering camewith that and to go more with
(43:22):
the flow and to lean more intomy own into intuition and and to
trust myself versus forcing uhuh these decisions um just
leaning more into into theintuition of it all the first um
therapist I had um at a collegeuh had at a real rough spot in
(43:44):
my life and went to a gentlemanhis name was John and he said
after we got through severalsessions he said you're pushing
the river don't push the riverbut that was what he was talking
about you're just you're justforcing things you know and
you're grinding and just it's aguiding light for me.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
So I appreciate you sharing that Sean Thanks to all
of you for sharing everythingthat you did.
These are all just great greatnotes to end on thank you all
for your service to our countryand for continuing to be just a
shining light of resilience ofempathy and of care.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
And to our listeners thank you as well when you
listen to our episodes you breakstigmas break barriers and you
care about mental health andsaving lives.
This is Voices for SuicidePrevention brought to you by the
Ohio Suicide PreventionFoundation
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.