January 18, 2021 • 28 mins
Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest Dan Burger.
Dan Burger, has a bachelors degree in Computer Engineering and a Master's degree in Computer Science from Vanderbilt University. Dan develops web and mobile solutions for research groups at Vanderbilt. His work covers astrophysics, high-performance computing, K-12 education, and career placement for individuals with autism.
A few of Dan's many accomplishments include developing software at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, creating Filtergraph - a free visualization web service which is also being used by NASA and Dan has been interviewed on 60 minutes by Anderson Cooper.
Resources
The Frist Center for Autism and Innovation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rocki Howard (00:15):
Welcome to the voices of diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, Iidentify as she, her black,
Christian GenX wife, mom. Theseattributes are dimensions of my
diversity of who I am. They arepart of my unique value
(00:38):
proposition and how I add valueto the world. And I believe it
is time for the world to hearthe stories of people like me,
those who are underrepresentedin corporate America. The
mission of this podcast is tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time toshare the impact on those who
(01:01):
identify as beingunderrepresented as they go
through life in corporateAmerica. I hope you will listen
to this episode with open heartsand open minds as today's guests
tell their story. They are avoice of diversity.
(01:25):
Welcome to the very firstepisodes of voices in diversity.
And let me tell you, you are infor a real treat. Our guests Dan
Burger has a bachelor's degreein Computer Engineering, and a
master's degree in ComputerScience from Vanderbilt
University. Dan develops web andmobile solutions for research
(01:46):
groups at Vanderbilt. His workcovers everything from
astrophysics, high performancecomputing, K through 12
education, and career placementsfor individuals with autism. A
few of Dan's manyaccomplishments include
developing software at NASA'sGoddard Space Flight Center,
(02:08):
creating filter graph, which isa free visualization web
service, which is also beingused by NASA. And Dan has been
interviewed on 60 minutes byAnderson Cooper. I can't think
of a better way to launch thispodcast than having Dan be a
voice of autism.
(02:38):
Good afternoon. Good morning.
Good evening audience forwhatever time you're listening,
and welcome to the voices ofdiversity Podcast. I am so
excited to have my my job's forhumanity friend and colleague,
Dan Berger joining me today, ifyou are not familiar jobs for
humanity, we are a volunteer, avolunteer led recruitment
(03:02):
service. And we helpedunderserved communities get jobs
by connecting a growingcommunity of activists,
including employers who reallycare to bring equity and
diversity and inclusion intothis world. And we help by
connecting those folks to verytalented individuals. And both
(03:23):
Dan and I are on the advisoryboard of jobs for humanity. So
I'm so excited to have Danjoining us here today for our
very first episode of voices ofdiversity. So my friends, my
colleagues, speaking of multipledimensions of diversity, I
identify as she, her black,Christian, Jen, ex wife, and
(03:49):
mom. And those are thedimensions of diversity that
that help. That's how I show upin the world. Dan, could you do
me a favor and introduceyourself to us and, and tell us
how you identify?
Dan Burger (04:06):
I so I'm Dan Burger.
I I identify a he/him/his, andI, I was diagnosed on the autism
spectrum almost two years ago.
Up until that point, I didn'tknow that I was on the spectrum.
Everyone around me had theirsuspicions, and I had my
(04:28):
suspicions too, but I was notformally diagnosed until two
years ago.
Rocki Howard (04:33):
Wow. So that had to be quite an evolution for
you. Was there something thatwas the catalyst for you seeking
out that diagnosis?
Dan Burger (04:44):
I have the opportunity as part of as part
of working at the Center forAutism and innovation. So let's
take a step back. I I work atVanderbilt, and Vanderbilt
University in Nashville,Tennessee. And I work at many
(05:05):
different parts of theuniversity physics and
astronomy, the SupercomputerCenter at Vanderbilt, which is
called the Advanced Computingcenters for research and
education. And then there'sPeabody college, I do some work
for the for elementary andmiddle school math teachers to
(05:26):
help them build lesson plans.
And then part of my work is atThe Frist Center for Autism and
Innovation. And the goal of thecenter is to help adults on the
spectrum find meaningfulemployment. And as soon as those
people that are able to find a,I was able to find a research
study, and as part of theresearch, study I would be
(05:49):
getting a diagnosis. So theybrought me into their lab, they
asked me two questions about mychildhood, I took an IQ test as
an IQ test. And, and then theysaid, we'll have a, we'll give
you a write up in about a week.
But I just wanted to let youknow that we think that you are
on the spectrum. And I'd say atfirst, it didn't matter that
(06:17):
much to me. But now I see howbeing on the spectrum has made
me different from everyone else.
And I've started to appreciatethose differences.
Rocki Howard (06:34):
I love the fact that what you're saying is
you've learned to appreciatethose differences. And and
that's what really life is allabout, I think is about learning
how to leverage our differencesas part of our value
proposition. Wow, that's anincredible, incredible story,
Dan, and, and I listened to youtalk about all the various
(06:57):
things that you do. And I'mexcited to dig in a little bit
about it a little bit morethere. So tell us a little bit
about your career. You know,first of all, how did you wind
up at Vanderbilt University? Arethere things that preceded you
coming to work for Vanderbilt,and then tell us a little bit
more about all these differentthings you do at Vanderbilt?
Dan Burger (07:20):
So I, I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. And so I
did well in school. Andeventually, I made it to
Vanderbilt as an undergraduate.
I got my bachelor's in ComputerEngineering in 2010. And then I
took it, I took and then for ayear, I worked at NASA as
(07:45):
working on some software to foran instrument that will
eventually go into space in afew years. And I'm still waiting
for it to go into space. Andthen then it came back here for
grad school. And as part of mythesis project, I worked for the
(08:08):
Astronomy Department. And theywanted me to build a
visualization for avisualization project for a
telescope that Vanderbilt runs.
So I think get the data, theyneeded me to have some way to
(08:28):
visualize the data. It wouldeventually become filter graphs.
And then we've had hundreds ofpeople using it around the
world. We'd have people at NASAbetter using it. And then a case
on staff and my, my, my thesisadvisor, he asked me if I could
(08:50):
keep running it full time afterI graduated. So I've been full
time at Vanderbilt ever sincethen.
Rocki Howard (08:56):
That's incredible.
So Dan, not many of us. And I'mjust gonna say this in case you
guys can hear my dog barking inthe background, because, you
know, this is life in COVID,where we all work from home and
there's certain noises, we can'tstop. So I apologize. But Dan
what an incredible story. Howmany of us get to come out of
undergrad and go work for NASAand create something that's
(09:20):
going to go into outer space?
Part of the purpose of thispodcast is to talk about the
value that people who areunderrepresented, add to
corporate america and add toorganizations and I just think
some of the work that you'vedone is absolutely incredible,
(09:43):
right. So I appreciate youwalking us through where you
started and how you got totoday. Let me ask you this, and
I know you spoke verytransparently about just getting
diagnosed about two years ago.
Can you share with us anychallenges you think you've had,
that have been related to yourautism in terms of your career
(10:06):
progression and how your autismpotentially affected you making
it to where you are today interms of your career.
Dan Burger (10:21):
I'd say the most difficult thing about being for
being on the autism spectrum,it's having to process it said,
I feel like, I processdifficulties. I feel like it's
hard for me to process difficultsituations.
Unknown (10:43):
Mm hmm.
Dan Burger (10:43):
I lost my mom four years ago, to breast cancer.
Rocki Howard (10:49):
I'm so sorry.
Dan Burger (10:51):
It happened all of a sudden, I, I she was in the
hospital for a month. She wasfeeling fixed for a month before
that. It was it was a difficult.
It was a very difficult time.
And, and then. And then almostsuddenly, after that, my dad had
(11:14):
met someone, they moved into ahouse together, they sold out,
they sold the old house theylived in ever since I was eight.
So a lot of things happenedwithin that year. And, and it
was it was very difficult. Andall of a sudden, I I have had to
(11:39):
transition to living on my own.
This is when I got this place.
And this is the first this isthe first place I've had on my
own.
Rocki Howard (11:49):
I bet that feels scary and great all at the same
time, doesn't it?
Dan Burger (11:53):
It does.
Rocki Howard (11:54):
Yeah, yeah. I can tell you that under the best of
circumstances, people who don'thave difficulty processing
things in a different way, indifficult situations. what you
just described would have beendifficult for under under the
best of circumstances, but I canimagine it was even more
(12:15):
stressful going through it ifyou have difficulty processing
situations. But it sounds likeyou've made it to the other
side.
Dan Burger (12:26):
Thank you.
Rocki Howard (12:27):
Yeah, yeah. You before you went to NASA. And as
you were going through theprocess of working with NASA,
and as you were going throughthe process of working with
Vanderbilt. Were therechallenges in your job search
where the difficulties that youhad applying for jobs or
interviewing for jobs that youthink were attributed to how you
(12:52):
process differently?
Unknown (12:53):
Oh, of course. I, despite getting into you think
you think you have a look back,you think Oh, I got into NASA?
Oh, I did all these wonderfulthings. And yeah, it was hard
for me to find a job out ofcollege. And I graduated in
(13:17):
2010. And I attributed a failingto not finding a job to the
Great Recession. Because it'sright at the time when things
started to recover. Yep. But notreally the unemployment rate.
And, and everyone was saying,oh, the millennials are cursed.
(13:41):
They're not gonna be able tofind a job ever.
It did feel like that at thetime didn't it?
You know, that was sort of themindset that I was going into
this. Oh, I must be. Oh, I'm inthe middle of the Great
(14:02):
Recession. That's why I'm havinga hard time no it's because I am
autistic.
Rocki Howard (14:07):
Yeah. Yeah. That is it. It's interesting how we
tend to attribute things indifferent ways. Because it's, I
think that's an easier thing tobe able to process like, it's
much easier to think about.
everybody's having a tough timegetting a job, the millennials
are cursed versus I may be beingtreated a little bit
(14:30):
differently. Because I, I walkthrough the world in a way that
maybe other people don't. Right.
Dan, let me ask you this. Thereare people who are privileged,
right, who may be listening tothis and when I talk about
(14:52):
privilege, I'm not talking aboutsocial economical privilege,
right? We all have privilegebecause we're part of a group We
walk through the world with thatkind of bias. And, and we're
part of a majority, in a lot ofcases, there are people who are
privileged not to have to gothrough the world to being on
the autism spectrum. And I'mcurious as to what you would
(15:16):
say, to people who areprivileged and may be listening
today, and may not understandwhat it's like to walk through
the world being on the autismspectrum, what what would you
say to those people?
Dan Burger (15:35):
I'd say that people on the spectrum have a wide
variety of talents. And, and,you know, if we there are people
who are good at there are peoplewho have great artistic talents,
and people have good programmingtalents. And things will be
(15:58):
better if he gives us a chance.
We have, we have a lot, we havea lot of problems facing the
world. We have a we have COVID.
We have climate change, we havewe have political differences,
we have racial injustice. Weneed people who think
(16:21):
differently about thoseproblems.
Rocki Howard (16:24):
We absolutely do.
Dan Burger (16:25):
I like to think that we I like to think that the
people who are building thevaccines, many of them are on
the spectrum. I bet that many ofthem are on the spectrum.
Rocki Howard (16:37):
It's an awesome call out because it is important
studies have shown time and timeagain, that you only get to
innovation, when you bringpeople to the table who think
differently. So So do you mindif I'm sitting across from
someone and I'm conducting aninterview with someone who is
autistic? How do I get the bestout of that person? What can I
(17:02):
do as an interviewer who's noton the spectrum? To make someone
on the spectrum? feel morecomfortable going through the
interview process?
Dan Burger (17:13):
Are you? So we're talking about
Rocki Howard (17:16):
No, no, no, like, if I'm hiring for a job? What
can I do? Like if I'minterviewing someone to come
work for my company? Who's onthe spectrum? What can I do as
an interviewer to make that agreat and positive experience?
Unknown (17:31):
Really I'm not the best person to ask about this...
Rocki Howard (17:34):
But I mean, from your experience, like when you
went to work with NASA, or whenyou went to work with
Vanderbilt? Did you have to gothrough an interview at all?
Dan Burger (17:43):
You know, it's just lucky to be connected to the
right people at the right time.
But I
Unknown (17:49):
think that's what it takes sometimes. Right?
Dan Burger (17:51):
But I'd say man, if you said that,
Unknown (17:54):
yeah. Why were they hard? From your point of view?
Dan Burger (17:58):
I have to, I have to think on the fly. And that's not
really the way that I think.
And, and it's kind of like, whatwe're, it's kind of like how we,
how we do the podcasts I have tothink about, I have to think
about different things. And, andit takes me a while to come up
(18:18):
with the right words. eyecontact, it's also very hard. I
tend to look off into thedistance whenever I talk to
people.
Rocki Howard (18:30):
So I think you honestly just answered the
question for us. So if I'm aninterviewer, a couple of things
that might help or may have evenhelped you, in those
circumstances were potentiallyto give you time to prepare for
your interview and give youthose questions and share them
upfront. It may include beingpatient enough in the process,
(18:54):
to understand that just becauseyou're not answering quickly, or
you asked for time, doesn't meanthat you lack the knowledge.
It's just that you processinformation in a different way.
And to you know, like a lot oftimes interviewers, be aware of
your bias of if someone doesn'tlook me in the eye, they're not
(19:17):
trustworthy. If you're on thespectrum, looking someone and
having that eye contact isuncomfortable. And so it's not a
lack of trust. It's just abouthow that person walks through
the world and how they interact.
Dan, that was actually really,really helpful. Thank you so
very much. I'm wondering foryou, has there been a mentor,
(19:38):
mentor or an ally that hasreally supported you or made a
difference for you and yourcareer?
Dan Burger (19:52):
I can't think of anyone better than Keivan
Stassun the breath how to keepthat He started out as a
professor of astronomy, and hestill is. And he's, and he was
the one who established thefirst Center for Autism and
innovation. And I can't believeI've worked with him for over 10
(20:18):
years.
Unknown (20:19):
Oh, wow.
Dan Burger (20:21):
Ever since I was an undergrad,
Rocki Howard (20:24):
It sounds like it's a great relationship. How
do you think he supports you orhelps you?
Dan Burger (20:32):
I think he, I think he knows what I'm capable of,
and, and knows how to support mytalents. And, and I couldn't
have asked for anyone better.
Rocki Howard (20:46):
I love that, because that's what great
mentors do. great mentors dounderstand the potential of the
person that they mentor, andthey do everything that they can
to support their talents. Ithink that's an like, I couldn't
have said it better. So, Dan, Imean, at the heart of it, you're
a data scientist. Right. So I'mcurious, do you have any
(21:10):
thoughts potentially, on howcompanies should measure success
in in diversity recruitment? Orin their diversity initiatives?
being a scientist and beingabout the data? Is there
anything that comes to mind foryou, when companies are looking
(21:31):
at metrics and measurementsaround diversity?
Dan Burger (21:34):
I think the I think the most important thing is are
you getting getting diversity inideas? And do you have differing
opinions on on things? Asopposed to if ever if everyone
(21:54):
thinks the same way, then thenthat's a good sign that you're,
you're not being differentenough. So diversity and ideas,
and then, and then diversity?
Another thing feeds intodiversity of ideas.
Rocki Howard (22:12):
I love that. I love that. If, Dan, if I want it
to learn more about on being agood partner, a good friend, a
great colleague, to someone whois on the autism spectrum, do
you have any resources that youmight recommend where I could
(22:35):
learn more any books or websitesor any podcast or any resources
at all, where if I want it to bea better ally, you would say,
Hey, Rocki, go check this out.
Dan Burger (22:48):
I start with the Frist Center for Autism and
Innovation website that isvanderbilt.edu, forward slash
autism and innovation. And thereare lots of resources on how to
how to do job interviews, how tobe how to support an autistic
(23:12):
colleague, and general resourceson being on the autism spectrum.
And there's plenty of there'splenty of resources online, on
YouTube, about how to how to behow to be an ally for someone on
the spectrum. And the internetis a great is a great resource,
(23:37):
if you know where to look.
Rocki Howard (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate that. And for thosewho are listening, I will make
sure that those resources are inour show notes so that they're
easily accessible. Right. So Iwant to wrap up with two
questions that go back tothinking about the workplace,
right. So if you could giveemployers specifically who are
(24:01):
committed to diversity, onepiece of advice, what what would
it be,
Dan Burger (24:11):
you know, Being on the spectrum and hard
I'd say Be patient. It takes awhile for people on the spectrum
to find to find their nichewithin a particular job. But
when they do, that the resultscan be there's can be there's a
(24:33):
payoff.
Rocki Howard (24:40):
Absolutely. Like NASA type of payoff. I love
that. And then, as we close uptoday, Dan, here's my final
question to you, right. This isthis the purpose of this podcast
is to give a voice To those whoare underrepresented. And so,
(25:03):
you know, this is a bit of yourtime, what would you like to say
to our audience about what itfeels like to walk through the
world, the corporate world, thework world, as someone who's
underrepresented,
Dan Burger (25:19):
I'd, say, I'm so glad that we have people who
think about these things. AndI'm sure that if you're
listening, that you're thinkingabout diversity, and that's a
great thing. And, and it'squite, it's important to think
about when you have, when youhave a diversity, you can do
(25:45):
wonderful things. And I'm reallyexcited to see what things can
come out of people who are onthe spectrum, who, who, who work
in different parts of society,and to see what they can
accomplish.
Rocki Howard (26:07):
I love that. And I so appreciate you saying that.
And I do think it's a greatmessage to leave people with
Dan, if you're listening to thispodcast, it's because you have
some type of interest indiversity. And your voice is
important and your ally ship isimportant, because that will
(26:28):
enable other people to be inpositions to do their best and
to make a significantcontribution to the world. Dan,
thank you so much for joining ustoday. I really appreciate you.
I'm so excited that you are ourfirst guest. And I'm really
looking forward to continuing towork together we're doing for
(26:50):
with jobs for humanity.
Dan Burger (26:53):
Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Rocki Howard (27:00):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(27:21):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(27:42):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
Welcome to the voices of diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, Iidentify as she, her black,
Christian GenX wife, mom. Theseattributes are dimensions of my
diversity of who I am. They arepart of my unique value
(00:38):
proposition and how I add valueto the world. And I believe it
is time for the world to hearthe stories of people like me,
those who are underrepresentedin corporate America. The
mission of this podcast is tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time toshare the impact on those who
(01:01):
identify as beingunderrepresented as they go
through life in corporateAmerica. I hope you will listen
to this episode with open heartsand open minds as today's guests
tell their story. They are avoice of diversity.
(01:25):
Welcome to the very firstepisodes of voices in diversity.
And let me tell you, you are infor a real treat. Our guests Dan
Burger has a bachelor's degreein Computer Engineering, and a
master's degree in ComputerScience from Vanderbilt
University. Dan develops web andmobile solutions for research
(01:46):
groups at Vanderbilt. His workcovers everything from
astrophysics, high performancecomputing, K through 12
education, and career placementsfor individuals with autism. A
few of Dan's manyaccomplishments include
developing software at NASA'sGoddard Space Flight Center,
(02:08):
creating filter graph, which isa free visualization web
service, which is also beingused by NASA. And Dan has been
interviewed on 60 minutes byAnderson Cooper. I can't think
of a better way to launch thispodcast than having Dan be a
voice of autism.
(02:38):
Good afternoon. Good morning.
Good evening audience forwhatever time you're listening,
and welcome to the voices ofdiversity Podcast. I am so
excited to have my my job's forhumanity friend and colleague,
Dan Berger joining me today, ifyou are not familiar jobs for
humanity, we are a volunteer, avolunteer led recruitment
(03:02):
service. And we helpedunderserved communities get jobs
by connecting a growingcommunity of activists,
including employers who reallycare to bring equity and
diversity and inclusion intothis world. And we help by
connecting those folks to verytalented individuals. And both
(03:23):
Dan and I are on the advisoryboard of jobs for humanity. So
I'm so excited to have Danjoining us here today for our
very first episode of voices ofdiversity. So my friends, my
colleagues, speaking of multipledimensions of diversity, I
identify as she, her black,Christian, Jen, ex wife, and
(03:49):
mom. And those are thedimensions of diversity that
that help. That's how I show upin the world. Dan, could you do
me a favor and introduceyourself to us and, and tell us
how you identify?
Dan Burger (04:06):
I so I'm Dan Burger.
I I identify a he/him/his, andI, I was diagnosed on the autism
spectrum almost two years ago.
Up until that point, I didn'tknow that I was on the spectrum.
Everyone around me had theirsuspicions, and I had my
(04:28):
suspicions too, but I was notformally diagnosed until two
years ago.
Rocki Howard (04:33):
Wow. So that had to be quite an evolution for
you. Was there something thatwas the catalyst for you seeking
out that diagnosis?
Dan Burger (04:44):
I have the opportunity as part of as part
of working at the Center forAutism and innovation. So let's
take a step back. I I work atVanderbilt, and Vanderbilt
University in Nashville,Tennessee. And I work at many
(05:05):
different parts of theuniversity physics and
astronomy, the SupercomputerCenter at Vanderbilt, which is
called the Advanced Computingcenters for research and
education. And then there'sPeabody college, I do some work
for the for elementary andmiddle school math teachers to
(05:26):
help them build lesson plans.
And then part of my work is atThe Frist Center for Autism and
Innovation. And the goal of thecenter is to help adults on the
spectrum find meaningfulemployment. And as soon as those
people that are able to find a,I was able to find a research
study, and as part of theresearch, study I would be
(05:49):
getting a diagnosis. So theybrought me into their lab, they
asked me two questions about mychildhood, I took an IQ test as
an IQ test. And, and then theysaid, we'll have a, we'll give
you a write up in about a week.
But I just wanted to let youknow that we think that you are
on the spectrum. And I'd say atfirst, it didn't matter that
(06:17):
much to me. But now I see howbeing on the spectrum has made
me different from everyone else.
And I've started to appreciatethose differences.
Rocki Howard (06:34):
I love the fact that what you're saying is
you've learned to appreciatethose differences. And and
that's what really life is allabout, I think is about learning
how to leverage our differencesas part of our value
proposition. Wow, that's anincredible, incredible story,
Dan, and, and I listened to youtalk about all the various
(06:57):
things that you do. And I'mexcited to dig in a little bit
about it a little bit morethere. So tell us a little bit
about your career. You know,first of all, how did you wind
up at Vanderbilt University? Arethere things that preceded you
coming to work for Vanderbilt,and then tell us a little bit
more about all these differentthings you do at Vanderbilt?
Dan Burger (07:20):
So I, I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. And so I
did well in school. Andeventually, I made it to
Vanderbilt as an undergraduate.
I got my bachelor's in ComputerEngineering in 2010. And then I
took it, I took and then for ayear, I worked at NASA as
(07:45):
working on some software to foran instrument that will
eventually go into space in afew years. And I'm still waiting
for it to go into space. Andthen then it came back here for
grad school. And as part of mythesis project, I worked for the
(08:08):
Astronomy Department. And theywanted me to build a
visualization for avisualization project for a
telescope that Vanderbilt runs.
So I think get the data, theyneeded me to have some way to
(08:28):
visualize the data. It wouldeventually become filter graphs.
And then we've had hundreds ofpeople using it around the
world. We'd have people at NASAbetter using it. And then a case
on staff and my, my, my thesisadvisor, he asked me if I could
(08:50):
keep running it full time afterI graduated. So I've been full
time at Vanderbilt ever sincethen.
Rocki Howard (08:56):
That's incredible.
So Dan, not many of us. And I'mjust gonna say this in case you
guys can hear my dog barking inthe background, because, you
know, this is life in COVID,where we all work from home and
there's certain noises, we can'tstop. So I apologize. But Dan
what an incredible story. Howmany of us get to come out of
undergrad and go work for NASAand create something that's
(09:20):
going to go into outer space?
Part of the purpose of thispodcast is to talk about the
value that people who areunderrepresented, add to
corporate america and add toorganizations and I just think
some of the work that you'vedone is absolutely incredible,
(09:43):
right. So I appreciate youwalking us through where you
started and how you got totoday. Let me ask you this, and
I know you spoke verytransparently about just getting
diagnosed about two years ago.
Can you share with us anychallenges you think you've had,
that have been related to yourautism in terms of your career
(10:06):
progression and how your autismpotentially affected you making
it to where you are today interms of your career.
Dan Burger (10:21):
I'd say the most difficult thing about being for
being on the autism spectrum,it's having to process it said,
I feel like, I processdifficulties. I feel like it's
hard for me to process difficultsituations.
Unknown (10:43):
Mm hmm.
Dan Burger (10:43):
I lost my mom four years ago, to breast cancer.
Rocki Howard (10:49):
I'm so sorry.
Dan Burger (10:51):
It happened all of a sudden, I, I she was in the
hospital for a month. She wasfeeling fixed for a month before
that. It was it was a difficult.
It was a very difficult time.
And, and then. And then almostsuddenly, after that, my dad had
(11:14):
met someone, they moved into ahouse together, they sold out,
they sold the old house theylived in ever since I was eight.
So a lot of things happenedwithin that year. And, and it
was it was very difficult. Andall of a sudden, I I have had to
(11:39):
transition to living on my own.
This is when I got this place.
And this is the first this isthe first place I've had on my
own.
Rocki Howard (11:49):
I bet that feels scary and great all at the same
time, doesn't it?
Dan Burger (11:53):
It does.
Rocki Howard (11:54):
Yeah, yeah. I can tell you that under the best of
circumstances, people who don'thave difficulty processing
things in a different way, indifficult situations. what you
just described would have beendifficult for under under the
best of circumstances, but I canimagine it was even more
(12:15):
stressful going through it ifyou have difficulty processing
situations. But it sounds likeyou've made it to the other
side.
Dan Burger (12:26):
Thank you.
Rocki Howard (12:27):
Yeah, yeah. You before you went to NASA. And as
you were going through theprocess of working with NASA,
and as you were going throughthe process of working with
Vanderbilt. Were therechallenges in your job search
where the difficulties that youhad applying for jobs or
interviewing for jobs that youthink were attributed to how you
(12:52):
process differently?
Unknown (12:53):
Oh, of course. I, despite getting into you think
you think you have a look back,you think Oh, I got into NASA?
Oh, I did all these wonderfulthings. And yeah, it was hard
for me to find a job out ofcollege. And I graduated in
(13:17):
2010. And I attributed a failingto not finding a job to the
Great Recession. Because it'sright at the time when things
started to recover. Yep. But notreally the unemployment rate.
And, and everyone was saying,oh, the millennials are cursed.
(13:41):
They're not gonna be able tofind a job ever.
It did feel like that at thetime didn't it?
You know, that was sort of themindset that I was going into
this. Oh, I must be. Oh, I'm inthe middle of the Great
(14:02):
Recession. That's why I'm havinga hard time no it's because I am
autistic.
Rocki Howard (14:07):
Yeah. Yeah. That is it. It's interesting how we
tend to attribute things indifferent ways. Because it's, I
think that's an easier thing tobe able to process like, it's
much easier to think about.
everybody's having a tough timegetting a job, the millennials
are cursed versus I may be beingtreated a little bit
(14:30):
differently. Because I, I walkthrough the world in a way that
maybe other people don't. Right.
Dan, let me ask you this. Thereare people who are privileged,
right, who may be listening tothis and when I talk about
(14:52):
privilege, I'm not talking aboutsocial economical privilege,
right? We all have privilegebecause we're part of a group We
walk through the world with thatkind of bias. And, and we're
part of a majority, in a lot ofcases, there are people who are
privileged not to have to gothrough the world to being on
the autism spectrum. And I'mcurious as to what you would
(15:16):
say, to people who areprivileged and may be listening
today, and may not understandwhat it's like to walk through
the world being on the autismspectrum, what what would you
say to those people?
Dan Burger (15:35):
I'd say that people on the spectrum have a wide
variety of talents. And, and,you know, if we there are people
who are good at there are peoplewho have great artistic talents,
and people have good programmingtalents. And things will be
(15:58):
better if he gives us a chance.
We have, we have a lot, we havea lot of problems facing the
world. We have a we have COVID.
We have climate change, we havewe have political differences,
we have racial injustice. Weneed people who think
(16:21):
differently about thoseproblems.
Rocki Howard (16:24):
We absolutely do.
Dan Burger (16:25):
I like to think that we I like to think that the
people who are building thevaccines, many of them are on
the spectrum. I bet that many ofthem are on the spectrum.
Rocki Howard (16:37):
It's an awesome call out because it is important
studies have shown time and timeagain, that you only get to
innovation, when you bringpeople to the table who think
differently. So So do you mindif I'm sitting across from
someone and I'm conducting aninterview with someone who is
autistic? How do I get the bestout of that person? What can I
(17:02):
do as an interviewer who's noton the spectrum? To make someone
on the spectrum? feel morecomfortable going through the
interview process?
Dan Burger (17:13):
Are you? So we're talking about
Rocki Howard (17:16):
No, no, no, like, if I'm hiring for a job? What
can I do? Like if I'minterviewing someone to come
work for my company? Who's onthe spectrum? What can I do as
an interviewer to make that agreat and positive experience?
Unknown (17:31):
Really I'm not the best person to ask about this...
Rocki Howard (17:34):
But I mean, from your experience, like when you
went to work with NASA, or whenyou went to work with
Vanderbilt? Did you have to gothrough an interview at all?
Dan Burger (17:43):
You know, it's just lucky to be connected to the
right people at the right time.
But I
Unknown (17:49):
think that's what it takes sometimes. Right?
Dan Burger (17:51):
But I'd say man, if you said that,
Unknown (17:54):
yeah. Why were they hard? From your point of view?
Dan Burger (17:58):
I have to, I have to think on the fly. And that's not
really the way that I think.
And, and it's kind of like, whatwe're, it's kind of like how we,
how we do the podcasts I have tothink about, I have to think
about different things. And, andit takes me a while to come up
(18:18):
with the right words. eyecontact, it's also very hard. I
tend to look off into thedistance whenever I talk to
people.
Rocki Howard (18:30):
So I think you honestly just answered the
question for us. So if I'm aninterviewer, a couple of things
that might help or may have evenhelped you, in those
circumstances were potentiallyto give you time to prepare for
your interview and give youthose questions and share them
upfront. It may include beingpatient enough in the process,
(18:54):
to understand that just becauseyou're not answering quickly, or
you asked for time, doesn't meanthat you lack the knowledge.
It's just that you processinformation in a different way.
And to you know, like a lot oftimes interviewers, be aware of
your bias of if someone doesn'tlook me in the eye, they're not
(19:17):
trustworthy. If you're on thespectrum, looking someone and
having that eye contact isuncomfortable. And so it's not a
lack of trust. It's just abouthow that person walks through
the world and how they interact.
Dan, that was actually really,really helpful. Thank you so
very much. I'm wondering foryou, has there been a mentor,
(19:38):
mentor or an ally that hasreally supported you or made a
difference for you and yourcareer?
Dan Burger (19:52):
I can't think of anyone better than Keivan
Stassun the breath how to keepthat He started out as a
professor of astronomy, and hestill is. And he's, and he was
the one who established thefirst Center for Autism and
innovation. And I can't believeI've worked with him for over 10
(20:18):
years.
Unknown (20:19):
Oh, wow.
Dan Burger (20:21):
Ever since I was an undergrad,
Rocki Howard (20:24):
It sounds like it's a great relationship. How
do you think he supports you orhelps you?
Dan Burger (20:32):
I think he, I think he knows what I'm capable of,
and, and knows how to support mytalents. And, and I couldn't
have asked for anyone better.
Rocki Howard (20:46):
I love that, because that's what great
mentors do. great mentors dounderstand the potential of the
person that they mentor, andthey do everything that they can
to support their talents. Ithink that's an like, I couldn't
have said it better. So, Dan, Imean, at the heart of it, you're
a data scientist. Right. So I'mcurious, do you have any
(21:10):
thoughts potentially, on howcompanies should measure success
in in diversity recruitment? Orin their diversity initiatives?
being a scientist and beingabout the data? Is there
anything that comes to mind foryou, when companies are looking
(21:31):
at metrics and measurementsaround diversity?
Dan Burger (21:34):
I think the I think the most important thing is are
you getting getting diversity inideas? And do you have differing
opinions on on things? Asopposed to if ever if everyone
(21:54):
thinks the same way, then thenthat's a good sign that you're,
you're not being differentenough. So diversity and ideas,
and then, and then diversity?
Another thing feeds intodiversity of ideas.
Rocki Howard (22:12):
I love that. I love that. If, Dan, if I want it
to learn more about on being agood partner, a good friend, a
great colleague, to someone whois on the autism spectrum, do
you have any resources that youmight recommend where I could
(22:35):
learn more any books or websitesor any podcast or any resources
at all, where if I want it to bea better ally, you would say,
Hey, Rocki, go check this out.
Dan Burger (22:48):
I start with the Frist Center for Autism and
Innovation website that isvanderbilt.edu, forward slash
autism and innovation. And thereare lots of resources on how to
how to do job interviews, how tobe how to support an autistic
(23:12):
colleague, and general resourceson being on the autism spectrum.
And there's plenty of there'splenty of resources online, on
YouTube, about how to how to behow to be an ally for someone on
the spectrum. And the internetis a great is a great resource,
(23:37):
if you know where to look.
Rocki Howard (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate that. And for thosewho are listening, I will make
sure that those resources are inour show notes so that they're
easily accessible. Right. So Iwant to wrap up with two
questions that go back tothinking about the workplace,
right. So if you could giveemployers specifically who are
(24:01):
committed to diversity, onepiece of advice, what what would
it be,
Dan Burger (24:11):
you know, Being on the spectrum and hard
I'd say Be patient. It takes awhile for people on the spectrum
to find to find their nichewithin a particular job. But
when they do, that the resultscan be there's can be there's a
(24:33):
payoff.
Rocki Howard (24:40):
Absolutely. Like NASA type of payoff. I love
that. And then, as we close uptoday, Dan, here's my final
question to you, right. This isthis the purpose of this podcast
is to give a voice To those whoare underrepresented. And so,
(25:03):
you know, this is a bit of yourtime, what would you like to say
to our audience about what itfeels like to walk through the
world, the corporate world, thework world, as someone who's
underrepresented,
Dan Burger (25:19):
I'd, say, I'm so glad that we have people who
think about these things. AndI'm sure that if you're
listening, that you're thinkingabout diversity, and that's a
great thing. And, and it'squite, it's important to think
about when you have, when youhave a diversity, you can do
(25:45):
wonderful things. And I'm reallyexcited to see what things can
come out of people who are onthe spectrum, who, who, who work
in different parts of society,and to see what they can
accomplish.
Rocki Howard (26:07):
I love that. And I so appreciate you saying that.
And I do think it's a greatmessage to leave people with
Dan, if you're listening to thispodcast, it's because you have
some type of interest indiversity. And your voice is
important and your ally ship isimportant, because that will
(26:28):
enable other people to be inpositions to do their best and
to make a significantcontribution to the world. Dan,
thank you so much for joining ustoday. I really appreciate you.
I'm so excited that you are ourfirst guest. And I'm really
looking forward to continuing towork together we're doing for
(26:50):
with jobs for humanity.
Dan Burger (26:53):
Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Rocki Howard (27:00):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(27:21):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(27:42):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
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