March 22, 2021 • 32 mins
"Because I think when you're in the environment, of trying to move up the ladder, you're trying to progress and you're just going as fast as you can. Sometimes you don't see those challenges until you step back, and you reflect on it."
Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest Marcus Sawyer who is a 15 year HR Tech veteran and Founder of EQ Community. A platform that is focused on empowering multicultural professionals with access to connections, careers, and community.
Marcus shares his story, as he reflects on his experiences, shares his three C's of diversity, and talks to us today as a Voice of A Multinational Black Man.
Resources
Connect with Us
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rocki Howard (00:12):
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki Howard. And thepurpose of this podcast is to
humanize diversity, one story,one conversation at a time for
listeners to understand thesignificance and the impact that
racism, bias and inequity haveon real people. Our Voices of
(00:36):
Diversity guests share thechallenges we the
underrepresented face in thecorporate world, the media's
eye, and the overall world welive in. I believe that through
sharing, listening,understanding, and committing to
take positive action, we cantogether impact the diversity
(00:56):
narrative, one story, oneconversation at a time. And by
changing the narrative, we canchange the world.
Marcus Sawyerr (01:07):
Because I think when you're in the environment,
of trying to move up the ladder,you're trying to progress and
you're just going as fast as youcan. Sometimes you don't see
those challenges until you stepback and you reflect on it.
Rocki Howard (01:20):
Marcus Sawyer is a 15 year HR tech veteran and
founder of EQ Community. Aplatform that's focused on
empowering multiculturalprofessionals with the access to
connections, careers andcommunities. Marcus helps us
learn as he reflects on hisexperiences, shares his three
(01:42):
C's of diversity, and talks ustoday as a voice of a
multinational black man. Goodmorning, good afternoon, good
evening, from whatever part ofthe world you're listening from.
And welcome to the Voices ofDiversity podcast. I am so
(02:04):
excited about today's episode.
Our guest is just a phenomenalindividual who has got some
incredible new things that aregoing to change the world in
which we work in and we live infrom a diversity perspective,
and he'll have a chance to sharethat with you today. But as we
get started, hey, Marcus, canyou introduce yourself?
Unknown (02:28):
Firstly, Rocki Thanks for having me. My name is Marcus
Sawyerr. I have been in HR techstaff and recruiting for the
last 15 -20 years, and reallyexcited about embarking on a new
journey to help moremulticultural people get access
to opportunities. So thanks forhaving me today.
Rocki Howard (02:47):
Yeah, no worries, I can't wait for you to tell us
a little bit more about thattoday. And before we get
started, you know, I believe inmultiple dimensions of
diversity. So can you do us afavor and tell us how you
identify.
Marcus Sawyerr (03:02):
So I identify as a black male, and somebody who
is passionate about helpingpeople progress. From a religion
standpoint, I believe in God.
And I believe that if you helpeach other out, good things will
happen.
Rocki Howard (03:25):
Oooh, say that, again, I think most more of us
need to identify with thatsimple statement. If if you just
help other people out goodthings will happen. You know
what? I have a question that Iwant to ask you. And I
specifically want to ask youthis question because, of course
you have grown up in anothercountry. And now you're here and
(03:45):
you may be able to give us aninteresting perspective on this.
So right now we hear the termsBAME, EPIC, BIPOC,
underrepresented minority andevery version there of...and I
recognize that we all need tocategorize people when we're
(04:06):
having a conversation. You can'talways maybe potentially ask
somebody how they identify. ButI'd love to have your thoughts
on what is the right thing? Isthere one that resonates from
you? I just love to hear yourthoughts.
Marcus Sawyerr (04:22):
Yes. So my perspective on categorization
and definitions is that thepower in definitions is really
taken by the person thatdefines. So for me personally,
you asked me to start What do Idefine myself as an I said a
(04:44):
black male, and that's probablythe right way for people to
understand of where I'm comingfrom. But when you think about
definitions, everything's humanmade. And do we need to be
categorized when we haveconversations or discussions?
(05:05):
Because when I'm talking to mysisters or my mom or my friends,
I don't categorize them any wayother than my people. So for me,
I'm not that big on those termsand terminologies, minorities
sat makes people sound small,underrepresented makes you sound
(05:27):
like you're not, you're notbeing taken care of. Okay, maybe
that's true. BAME or BAME isjust another acronym. Black,
actually, like the color black.
And I think black sounds strong.
So I probably prefer to callmyself black. But I also like
the fact that there's anopportunity to have different
(05:50):
personalities, differentpersonas, different ways to
operate. So I like multi. Somulticultural is something that
I think about and talk aboutquite a lot. But yeah, that's my
view may be a little bitdifferent from other people's.
Rocki Howard (06:05):
Yeah, I'll be honest, as I'm listening to how
people answer this question,it's not much different. It's
really not much different as atall. Um, look, let's kick it
off. You told us at the top thatyou've been in HR tech,
staffing, recruiting for a verylong time. Tell us about your
career. Tell us what you do fora living now. But lead us up to
(06:30):
how you got there?
Marcus Sawyerr (06:31):
Sure. So I had started, actually, a long time
ago wanting to be a professionalfootballer. And I spent majority
of my school years in school boyyears playing football so I was
at professional teams.
Rocki Howard (06:47):
So wait a minute, you got to tell the American
audience that this is not NFLfootball, this is soccer
football.
Marcus Sawyerr (06:52):
No, yeah, the real football that you use your
feet with that one that youlike, kick the ball with, that
one. So anyway, I've got familyand cousins who always berate me
about that. But yeah, so Istarted out wanting to do that
(07:12):
for a long period of time. Anddone the whole school boy got
scholarships played forprofessional teams, I was
captain for my county was Iplayed Full Sail as well, which
was kind of England school boys.
And then I got to a point whereI was at university, and I
decided to drop out. And I wason a football scholarship. I
(07:36):
dropped out because didn'treally like the course. And I
was coming home because I wasfrom from London. So I was
traveling back and forth, and Idecided to get a job in a gym.
Because I thought, okay, if Iget a job in a gym, I can
continue playing sports and getbetter. But I went to the gym
and they didn't have any jobsthat were associated to actual
physical activity, they only hadsales jobs. So I said, Okay,
(07:57):
I'll take this sales, sales gig.
And then I started kind ofgetting excited about getting
people gym memberships? So I wasdoing that for a while. And then
I moved up to corporate gymmembership. And I said, well,
I'm gonna see if I can breakthese sales records. So I had me
and a couple of my friends thatwe work in together and I broke
(08:17):
all the sales records for thisgym in London. And I thought for
I'm sure I can make more moneythan 13,000 pounds a year. So
let me see if I can find a role.
And that was when roles werestarted. We're still in
newspapers, but being advertisedonline. So there was this kind
of way of advertising for rolesonline. And I remember telling
my mom, I was like 21 - 22 atthe time. And I was like, I'm
(08:41):
gonna go for this job. And itwas like $23,000 at Career
Builder.
Rocki Howard (08:46):
And it was it was oh my gosh, oh, yes, big money.
Marcus Sawyerr (08:50):
I just increased my money by like 10k. And I was
thinking to myself, I'm going tomake it. And anyway, I applied
for this role. They were tryingto really change the way that
people advertise for roles andpositions and move that online.
And that was when I got intoCareer Builder's inside sales.
So I started making 120 callsevery day and then worked my way
(09:11):
up. I got promoted every singleyear. I was there for 10 years
now I ended up running a staffand a recruiting division. And
then moving to the Adecco groupresponsible for M&A Digital
Innovation, be CEO of somecompanies and yeah, and moved to
America, moved my family here.
And that was yeah, I think I waswell over 15 - 16 years. And
that was it.
Rocki Howard (09:32):
Wow. Okay, that's really cool. It's a cool story.
And I am interested, especiallyagain, because you have
experience living in multiplecountries, and how Europeans see
diversity and how Americans seediversity is often different.
And we find those challenges andhow far the heads are buried in
(09:56):
the sand are sometimes differentand challenging, too. So i would
like for you to talk to us alittle bit about challenges that
you've had making it to a seniorexecutive level now being the
CEO of your own company whatchallenges have you had a long
(10:17):
that career path that you feelare directly related to you
being a black man.
Marcus Sawyerr (10:23):
It's a good question because I think when
you're in the environment oftrying to move up the ladder
you're trying to progress andyou're just going as fast as you
can sometimes you don't seethose challenges until you step
back and you reflect on it. AndI go back to sports and i look
at look at that environment andI think that when you're really
(10:46):
going for it your heads down andyou're just going as fast as you
can. Now when i look look backsome of those things would have
probably been down to the typeof roles that I was hired into.
I could argue that maybe Ididn't have the experience but
then also then when it came toprogressing and getting
(11:07):
opportunities, I progressedbased on my numbers which was
which was great but then thosemanagement roles and those
senior opportunities, Iremember somebody got promoted
before me and I'd killed bynumbers much more than that and
it wasn't just okay are you goodsales person can you move into a
manager position but i wasn'teven considered. And so I think
(11:30):
I don't know if that's becauseI'm a black man but I think that
that was probably because of myculture and the culture that I
came from and where that personwas potentially coming from as
well. I think also as far aschallenges, as you start to get
into some of the more thecorporate and executive
(11:53):
environments people look at youand don't expect you to be in
that room, from the get go. AndI've had I've had that I mean
I've had scenarios which I wrotedown and I had to write them
down myself and I kind of keptthis journal of incidents that
have taken place. And just toreflect on them and figure out
(12:14):
how I would deal with them thenext time that they happen
because sometimes when yousituation it's hard to deal with
them. I mean people have saidto me hey we're going to go
skiing and yeah but we mighthave to see you in the ski
because you're black. Okaythat's been in the in the work
environment. I've had scenarioswhere I have been in situations
and I've come offstage andpeople said oh that's Eddie
(12:35):
Murphy after I've come offstageand I've been speaking and this
is in the corporate environment.
I've had scenarios where I'vebeen in meetings and people have
said I wouldn't hire people inthat area while I've been
sitting it is only good fordiversity and inclusion it's
only good for black people. SoI've seen all of this and heard
all of it and I haven'tnecessarily brushed it on the
carpet. But I'm quite a measuredindividual for those that know
(12:57):
me and so it seems like it'snoted is duly noted. And that
that was kind of how I playedsports and how I, I compete.
Sometimes you see things I don'tI don't react immediately but I
measure it and I build it up andin it as I said you do good
things to good people goodthings will happen. In their
(13:21):
scenarios a lot of the thingsthat I think that people have
maybe done overtly or covertlylike that's been noted duly
noted. And I use that as energyand I use that as fuel to drive.
So yeah many many differentscenarios that I could probably
label.
Rocki Howard (13:43):
The best revenge is absolutely successes
absolutelySo let's go back because it
sounds like you certainly havefound yourself in some
situations where you were theonly one or the first one. Can
you think about a time where youwere the only or you were the
(14:05):
first and help us understand howthat felt how it felt to be in
that circumstance how it madeyou feel the challenges that
that come with being the only orthe first.
Marcus Sawyerr (14:23):
There's been many situations where I'd been
the only offer especially in astaff and environment. And as an
example, go into conferencesyou'd go to a conference you'd
look around and you'd be theonly black person that would be
there. Then I'd go and speak atconference and I'd be the only
black person that would bespeaking at a conference. To be
(14:44):
really honest how it made mefeel when I was the only one
there was like wow okay thisisn't necessarily a
representation of of the world Iwonder why that is. So I was
curious to know more I kind ofknow why it is at a high level.
But really what do these peoplethink? And do they think that
this is the right environment?
When I'm speaking on stage, Ifeel like I'm representing my
(15:06):
people. And I got friends whoaren't even in my industry. Some
of them do some, they're indifferent industries, they do
different things. But they'llmessage me and like, tell me on
a consistent basis, I make themfeel proud. And that that's
really what, what what makes mewant to do it. It's, it's, it's
(15:28):
basically for my people weren'table to get there. So, yeah.
Rocki Howard (15:37):
Do you feel the burden for that? I mean, I think
there's a couple of ways tocarry that right, it is, I'm
going to be the first I'm goingto be the only I'm going to make
my family proud. I'm going tomake my friends proud. And to
your point, you are inspired byenergy to go ahead and do that.
And you just never really thinkabout it. There is an emotional
(16:00):
tax, though, that sometimescomes along with carrying that
I'm in a situation to make mypeople proud. And more
importantly, I'm in a situationwhere I'm seeing to represent a
whole group of people. Is that aenergizer for you? Or is that a
tax?
Marcus Sawyerr (16:18):
Yeah, I see as a privilege. My family moved over
from Jamaica to the UK. And it'sbig, big family. And we are
probably wasn't meant to bewhere I am. So? Yeah. I see
(16:39):
that. I see that as a as a as aprivilege. Yeah.
Rocki Howard (16:46):
Yeah. I appreciate that. So look, you know, we're
friends. So I'm always checkingyou out. And I noticed that
recently, your social mediapictures changed. So you changed
from a job and you've changedinto a new role. And your social
media pictures changed. Andneedless to say, from my point
(17:10):
of view, your current picturesare a little less conservative
than your old pictures were. SoI'm curious, do you think how
you chose to represent yourselfpreviously, is a sacrifice that
you had to make to assimilatefor your career?
Marcus Sawyerr (17:29):
I think looking back on it, yeah, probably. So
just as an example, right, myhair's always been short. And
I've always had short hair. AndI've never really thought but
apart from when I was reallyyoung, and I used to have platts
and I used to have all thosedifferent types of hairstyles as
a kid. And then when I went intoa corporate, I was like, yeah,
you're going to go short. And Iremember having a conversation
with one of my one of mycousins, and I was like, how
(17:51):
come you growing your beard, youneed to chop it down, blah,
blah. And he was like, debatingme. And I was like, you're never
gonna make it in a corporateworld. He was right. Right. So I
spend too much energy beingclean cut, I suppose clean cut
and on brand. But maybe that'shelped me get into doors that I
might not have gotten into.
Maybe that's that's one way tolook at, I didn't see it as a
(18:12):
significant shift until Istarted growing my hair because
of COVID. And there's no barbersaround and I was like, okay,
I've got one way to go here. Andmy dad's a restaurant. So my
dad's a dread. And he's alwayshad long here, he fought in the
Olympics. So he's an Olympian.
And I remember when he went tothe Olympics in Seoul in 88, and
he had to cut his hair off, togo to the Olympics to fight so
(18:35):
he had to make a sacrifice, andHis head was down to his back,
he's grown it back now. So it'sall the way down to his butt.
And I'm, I come from that kindof similar ilk, and that
similarity. And then I rememberI had a friend of mine who was
in the same industry, and he'sgrown his hair out, and he's got
dreads. And a couple people havesent sent me a note saying, I
haven't got dreds, I've just gotlonger hair. And they said to
(18:57):
me, yeah, good to see yourocking the knotty dread. Good
to see you doing it. And sopeople are watching, and they're
seeing it. And I wouldn't say itwas a, it was a tax, I just felt
like yeah, you can be a bit morefree. When you're not, when
you're not only representingyourself in a company, you're
representing yourself. And partof it, I think is okay. Because
(19:20):
I think part of it is like whenyou're part of an organization
or you're part of a company oryou're part of a brand, being on
brand is potentially important,but not necessarily at the
sacrifice of who you are. And Ididn't feel like I was
sacrificing who I was. I justfelt like for this company, this
is that environment. I mean, ifI was playing football, I
wouldn't wear a suit on afootball pitch, just not the
(19:42):
right environment. So I thinkthat there's some there's some
aspects of that which you've gotto take into context and into
consideration.
Rocki Howard (19:50):
Agree. So let's talk about consideration right.
So there are people who arelistening who are listening
because they're allies or theirleaders in corporations and they
want to know how to be betterright. How to move the needle
(20:13):
forward, how to live up to someof the pledges and the
commitments that have been madeout there. So what advice would
you give allies leadersemployers who are committed to
diversity?
Marcus Sawyerr (20:29):
The way that I think about diversity and the
commitment is in a quite simplestructure. Which is surround the
three c's i call it which isabout connections, careers and
community. So i think you haveto make connections with people
that are not necessarily in yournetwork. And you have to start
(20:50):
building relationships. Youcan't expect to have community
without having the rightconnections. And if you're in an
organization people expect youto invest in their careers. So
for me the most important thingas well as some of the nice days
that we have celebrations,months, we have black history
(21:11):
month and people trying to getspeakers and do what that's cool
and that's nice. But helpsomeone along their career.
Really help someone along theirjourney. Invest in them and take
the time to listen and not justtalk about about be about it. So
for me it's about acting and thebiggest thing you can do it the
biggest statement is you canshow you got representation in
(21:33):
your organization. So you go outand start hiring. And if you say
well those people don't existhave you looked, have you really
looked? Because I'll tell youthey do and they exist in
abundance. So are you willing tomake that investment? And you
have to really see diversity asa value in your organization,
not just because someone's blackyou want to give them
opportunity or they deserve itand so on and so yeah okay fair
(21:55):
enough we go drive equity andequality. But these people
people are good their highquality is actually going to
help to drive your organizationforward. And you got to have
representation of your customersthat you're serving. So think
about the customers you'reserving, think about the
population that you're in andthinking are you doing enough to
drive that forwadr? Nos ofcourse we're all gonna always
(22:17):
have gaps and we're gonna havebalances that we can make and
things that we can change. Butwhere is that coming from? And
make sure that the top down issupporting it and also bottom up
so you've got push from bothareas it's like a sandwich top
down and bottom up.
Rocki Howard (22:32):
There's so many nuggets in what you said so i
want to ask a add on questionand maybe a little bit of a
controversial question but againi think because of your
experience in the staffing worldI'd be curious about your
response to this. Because toyour point, companies want to
make as a substantive differenceit starts with helping someone
(22:57):
in their career and expandingthe opportunities and truly
bringing people in. And there'sa lot of conversation of I can't
find the talent and so we'llpoint it out to you. But there
is a school of thought thatsetting goals we're not talking
hiring quotas but really andtruly for organization to say I
(23:21):
want to increase my diversepopulation by x percent which
means you've made a commitmentto do so but there is a school
of thought where some peoplethink this is a bit of reverse
discrimination
Unknown (23:35):
Yeah
Rocki Howard (23:38):
Do you have a point of view?
Marcus Sawyerr (23:39):
Yeah I do have a point of view and I think that
those people that think it'sreverse discrimination have
never been discriminatedagainst, and i think they don't
get it. And I've had the I hadthis conversation recently a
friend actually who i like alot. And I said come are you
(24:00):
serious? And he was like wellyeah well are we discriminating
and we've got to be careful thatwe don't necessarily we don't
get into a situation where we'regiving people opportunities who
don't deserve to. I said welllet me tell you this one thing
about recruiting, that you knowand I both know is it's a sub
(24:21):
it's subjective. It's both anart and a science. So you're
making judgments every day. Sowhat are your judgments based
on? Your judgments are based onyour experiences and your
history. So if your experienceand your history has have a
certain predisposition, guesswhat you're going to be making
(24:44):
unbiased since you got justlevel up you've got even up and
that's what equity is about. SoI don't see it as
discrimination. I think it'slike I mean I've been in
meetings recently where peopleare like looking at pictures of
people before they're hiringthem, because all on linkedIn.
So how you're doing that anyway?
And so on the other, on the flipside, I'm seeing people that are
(25:06):
saying, okay, well, we actuallyneed to get more black people
in. If you've got a goal inorder to do that, how you're
going to know what they don'tidentify on this, you kind of go
out searching? So I don't seeit's discriminatory, I see it as
leveling the playing field anddriving more equity, for people
that need that access. Becauseit's been, it's been so far
left, I don't mean left thatmean, left or right in a
(25:30):
political sense, but so far leftfor so long. that something has
to change.
Rocki Howard (25:37):
And that, my friends, is the difference
between equality and equity. Andit there is a difference. So let
me ask you, this, you, you, youhave this point of view. You've
had a great career, you'regetting where you're going.
(25:57):
You're having the rightconversations. You don't feel
like it's a burden, you feellike it's it's a great thing to
be able to represent your peopleproudly. What responsibility do
you feel to your colleagues thatfeel like they show up in the
(26:18):
world represented? Do you feel aresponsibility back?
Marcus Sawyerr (26:21):
Could you could you ask that again, I just
missed that for last part of thequestion.
Rocki Howard (26:26):
So do you feel like you have a responsibility
for other people who areunderrepresented to make a way
for them? What what's yourresponsibility.
Marcus Sawyerr (26:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that if
you've been fortunate enough toget let in, to whatever world
you're going into, you shouldtry and help others also make
their way as well. And I'm notthat old, I'm 37 in a week or
(26:55):
two, right? A week. And, butit's going to be less about me,
and it's going to be brought mykids. And it's going to be about
the path that I create for themand create for their friends and
family. And so for me, you'realways driving change for the
next generation. And I live byan old Jamaican saying, which is
(27:17):
each one, teach one. And thatwill allow you to reach reach
what right so for me, it's partof the responsibility of being
someone that wants to see othersprogress. If you want to see our
progress, you got to make somechanges in some sacrifice, spend
time with people spend time withpeople that are younger than you
(27:39):
spend time people that are oder, new learn from the old y
t learn from the young. It's nt always going to be at your l
vel where you earn MSA level, Imean, just your age range w
ere you're going to figure hve all the answers. There's so m
ny learnings from each others tere's and there's also another t
pic, which I think is iportant, which is reverse m
ntoring, right? Speaking to pople that have got different p
rspectives from different aeas will help you along. So I g
(28:02):
t a lot out of helping people aong the journey and u
derstanding where they're ging, because they're helping m
at the same time. So yeah, prt of that, I think is just r
sponsibility.
Rocki Howard (28:14):
Well, you get so much out of it, I would argue
you're now the next phase ofyour career is all about it. You
want to tell us a little bitabout your latest endeavor.
Marcus Sawyerr (28:21):
Yeah, sure. So I've decided to build a platform
that's focused on empoweringmulticultural professionals with
the access, so the connections,the careers, and the community,
they need to be successful andthrive. And for organizations
(28:44):
that have said, hey, I put myhand up, I want to do something
about D and I or I'm already onthat journey. So they've ever
hired ahead of D and I, we'vegot someone driving that cause
or they've put together apledge. But they don't
necessarily know how to getaccess to that network. Or maybe
they know how, but they want tosupport others and share best
(29:06):
practice. So really building acommunity to help those be
successful within technology, inparticular, I think digital
transformation will have themost change and create the most
wealth and value for thecompanies of tomorrow. So it's
called EQ.Community. You canfind it we're in iOS, we are an
(29:27):
Android as well. But
Rocki Howard (29:29):
You are on Android for those of us who are
droiders.
Marcus Sawyerr (29:33):
You can you download the app, you can become
a member, it's a its memberscommunity, and we're really help
there to help people drivechange. So you'll find content,
careers and connections thatwill be meaningful.
Rocki Howard (29:47):
Well, and we'll make sure that the links are in
the show notes and areavailable. I so appreciate you
today. Before we wrap up, youknow that I have created this
platform because I believe thatyou can change the world one
story one conversation at a timeand I believe when you give a
(30:07):
voice to people who are who aretraditionally underrepresented
it gives perspective. So as youwrap us up today I'd like for
you to tell our listeners fromyour point of view what what
would you like to say about howit feels to walk through the
corporate world as someone who'sunderrepresented?
Marcus Sawyerr (30:29):
For me personally, it feels like
there's a weight and a level ofresponsibility on your shoulders
to be the one that creates thepath for everybody else. And
sometimes that road can feellonel, but always know there
are people that need you to doit. And as I said for me
(30:53):
personally, it's a privilege andI'm just glad that I'm still
here today and made it as far asI can and I want to help as many
people as possible do the samething.
Rocki Howard (31:02):
Well I appreciate not only what you have done but
I really appreciate what you'regoing to do. And thank you for
walking that path for us. Thankyou very much.
Marcus Sawyerr (31:11):
Thanks for having me Rocki.
Rocki Howard (31:17):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority, can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative we can change the
(31:38):
world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity one story one
conversation at a time bysharing our episodes especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the Voices of Diversity podcastbe a catalyst for courageous
(31:58):
conversations and mostimportantly for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard.
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki Howard. And thepurpose of this podcast is to
humanize diversity, one story,one conversation at a time for
listeners to understand thesignificance and the impact that
racism, bias and inequity haveon real people. Our Voices of
(00:36):
Diversity guests share thechallenges we the
underrepresented face in thecorporate world, the media's
eye, and the overall world welive in. I believe that through
sharing, listening,understanding, and committing to
take positive action, we cantogether impact the diversity
(00:56):
narrative, one story, oneconversation at a time. And by
changing the narrative, we canchange the world.
Marcus Sawyerr (01:07):
Because I think when you're in the environment,
of trying to move up the ladder,you're trying to progress and
you're just going as fast as youcan. Sometimes you don't see
those challenges until you stepback and you reflect on it.
Rocki Howard (01:20):
Marcus Sawyer is a 15 year HR tech veteran and
founder of EQ Community. Aplatform that's focused on
empowering multiculturalprofessionals with the access to
connections, careers andcommunities. Marcus helps us
learn as he reflects on hisexperiences, shares his three
(01:42):
C's of diversity, and talks ustoday as a voice of a
multinational black man. Goodmorning, good afternoon, good
evening, from whatever part ofthe world you're listening from.
And welcome to the Voices ofDiversity podcast. I am so
(02:04):
excited about today's episode.
Our guest is just a phenomenalindividual who has got some
incredible new things that aregoing to change the world in
which we work in and we live infrom a diversity perspective,
and he'll have a chance to sharethat with you today. But as we
get started, hey, Marcus, canyou introduce yourself?
Unknown (02:28):
Firstly, Rocki Thanks for having me. My name is Marcus
Sawyerr. I have been in HR techstaff and recruiting for the
last 15 -20 years, and reallyexcited about embarking on a new
journey to help moremulticultural people get access
to opportunities. So thanks forhaving me today.
Rocki Howard (02:47):
Yeah, no worries, I can't wait for you to tell us
a little bit more about thattoday. And before we get
started, you know, I believe inmultiple dimensions of
diversity. So can you do us afavor and tell us how you
identify.
Marcus Sawyerr (03:02):
So I identify as a black male, and somebody who
is passionate about helpingpeople progress. From a religion
standpoint, I believe in God.
And I believe that if you helpeach other out, good things will
happen.
Rocki Howard (03:25):
Oooh, say that, again, I think most more of us
need to identify with thatsimple statement. If if you just
help other people out goodthings will happen. You know
what? I have a question that Iwant to ask you. And I
specifically want to ask youthis question because, of course
you have grown up in anothercountry. And now you're here and
(03:45):
you may be able to give us aninteresting perspective on this.
So right now we hear the termsBAME, EPIC, BIPOC,
underrepresented minority andevery version there of...and I
recognize that we all need tocategorize people when we're
(04:06):
having a conversation. You can'talways maybe potentially ask
somebody how they identify. ButI'd love to have your thoughts
on what is the right thing? Isthere one that resonates from
you? I just love to hear yourthoughts.
Marcus Sawyerr (04:22):
Yes. So my perspective on categorization
and definitions is that thepower in definitions is really
taken by the person thatdefines. So for me personally,
you asked me to start What do Idefine myself as an I said a
(04:44):
black male, and that's probablythe right way for people to
understand of where I'm comingfrom. But when you think about
definitions, everything's humanmade. And do we need to be
categorized when we haveconversations or discussions?
(05:05):
Because when I'm talking to mysisters or my mom or my friends,
I don't categorize them any wayother than my people. So for me,
I'm not that big on those termsand terminologies, minorities
sat makes people sound small,underrepresented makes you sound
(05:27):
like you're not, you're notbeing taken care of. Okay, maybe
that's true. BAME or BAME isjust another acronym. Black,
actually, like the color black.
And I think black sounds strong.
So I probably prefer to callmyself black. But I also like
the fact that there's anopportunity to have different
(05:50):
personalities, differentpersonas, different ways to
operate. So I like multi. Somulticultural is something that
I think about and talk aboutquite a lot. But yeah, that's my
view may be a little bitdifferent from other people's.
Rocki Howard (06:05):
Yeah, I'll be honest, as I'm listening to how
people answer this question,it's not much different. It's
really not much different as atall. Um, look, let's kick it
off. You told us at the top thatyou've been in HR tech,
staffing, recruiting for a verylong time. Tell us about your
career. Tell us what you do fora living now. But lead us up to
(06:30):
how you got there?
Marcus Sawyerr (06:31):
Sure. So I had started, actually, a long time
ago wanting to be a professionalfootballer. And I spent majority
of my school years in school boyyears playing football so I was
at professional teams.
Rocki Howard (06:47):
So wait a minute, you got to tell the American
audience that this is not NFLfootball, this is soccer
football.
Marcus Sawyerr (06:52):
No, yeah, the real football that you use your
feet with that one that youlike, kick the ball with, that
one. So anyway, I've got familyand cousins who always berate me
about that. But yeah, so Istarted out wanting to do that
(07:12):
for a long period of time. Anddone the whole school boy got
scholarships played forprofessional teams, I was
captain for my county was Iplayed Full Sail as well, which
was kind of England school boys.
And then I got to a point whereI was at university, and I
decided to drop out. And I wason a football scholarship. I
(07:36):
dropped out because didn'treally like the course. And I
was coming home because I wasfrom from London. So I was
traveling back and forth, and Idecided to get a job in a gym.
Because I thought, okay, if Iget a job in a gym, I can
continue playing sports and getbetter. But I went to the gym
and they didn't have any jobsthat were associated to actual
physical activity, they only hadsales jobs. So I said, Okay,
(07:57):
I'll take this sales, sales gig.
And then I started kind ofgetting excited about getting
people gym memberships? So I wasdoing that for a while. And then
I moved up to corporate gymmembership. And I said, well,
I'm gonna see if I can breakthese sales records. So I had me
and a couple of my friends thatwe work in together and I broke
(08:17):
all the sales records for thisgym in London. And I thought for
I'm sure I can make more moneythan 13,000 pounds a year. So
let me see if I can find a role.
And that was when roles werestarted. We're still in
newspapers, but being advertisedonline. So there was this kind
of way of advertising for rolesonline. And I remember telling
my mom, I was like 21 - 22 atthe time. And I was like, I'm
(08:41):
gonna go for this job. And itwas like $23,000 at Career
Builder.
Rocki Howard (08:46):
And it was it was oh my gosh, oh, yes, big money.
Marcus Sawyerr (08:50):
I just increased my money by like 10k. And I was
thinking to myself, I'm going tomake it. And anyway, I applied
for this role. They were tryingto really change the way that
people advertise for roles andpositions and move that online.
And that was when I got intoCareer Builder's inside sales.
So I started making 120 callsevery day and then worked my way
(09:11):
up. I got promoted every singleyear. I was there for 10 years
now I ended up running a staffand a recruiting division. And
then moving to the Adecco groupresponsible for M&A Digital
Innovation, be CEO of somecompanies and yeah, and moved to
America, moved my family here.
And that was yeah, I think I waswell over 15 - 16 years. And
that was it.
Rocki Howard (09:32):
Wow. Okay, that's really cool. It's a cool story.
And I am interested, especiallyagain, because you have
experience living in multiplecountries, and how Europeans see
diversity and how Americans seediversity is often different.
And we find those challenges andhow far the heads are buried in
(09:56):
the sand are sometimes differentand challenging, too. So i would
like for you to talk to us alittle bit about challenges that
you've had making it to a seniorexecutive level now being the
CEO of your own company whatchallenges have you had a long
(10:17):
that career path that you feelare directly related to you
being a black man.
Marcus Sawyerr (10:23):
It's a good question because I think when
you're in the environment oftrying to move up the ladder
you're trying to progress andyou're just going as fast as you
can sometimes you don't seethose challenges until you step
back and you reflect on it. AndI go back to sports and i look
at look at that environment andI think that when you're really
(10:46):
going for it your heads down andyou're just going as fast as you
can. Now when i look look backsome of those things would have
probably been down to the typeof roles that I was hired into.
I could argue that maybe Ididn't have the experience but
then also then when it came toprogressing and getting
(11:07):
opportunities, I progressedbased on my numbers which was
which was great but then thosemanagement roles and those
senior opportunities, Iremember somebody got promoted
before me and I'd killed bynumbers much more than that and
it wasn't just okay are you goodsales person can you move into a
manager position but i wasn'teven considered. And so I think
(11:30):
I don't know if that's becauseI'm a black man but I think that
that was probably because of myculture and the culture that I
came from and where that personwas potentially coming from as
well. I think also as far aschallenges, as you start to get
into some of the more thecorporate and executive
(11:53):
environments people look at youand don't expect you to be in
that room, from the get go. AndI've had I've had that I mean
I've had scenarios which I wrotedown and I had to write them
down myself and I kind of keptthis journal of incidents that
have taken place. And just toreflect on them and figure out
(12:14):
how I would deal with them thenext time that they happen
because sometimes when yousituation it's hard to deal with
them. I mean people have saidto me hey we're going to go
skiing and yeah but we mighthave to see you in the ski
because you're black. Okaythat's been in the in the work
environment. I've had scenarioswhere I have been in situations
and I've come offstage andpeople said oh that's Eddie
(12:35):
Murphy after I've come offstageand I've been speaking and this
is in the corporate environment.
I've had scenarios where I'vebeen in meetings and people have
said I wouldn't hire people inthat area while I've been
sitting it is only good fordiversity and inclusion it's
only good for black people. SoI've seen all of this and heard
all of it and I haven'tnecessarily brushed it on the
carpet. But I'm quite a measuredindividual for those that know
(12:57):
me and so it seems like it'snoted is duly noted. And that
that was kind of how I playedsports and how I, I compete.
Sometimes you see things I don'tI don't react immediately but I
measure it and I build it up andin it as I said you do good
things to good people goodthings will happen. In their
(13:21):
scenarios a lot of the thingsthat I think that people have
maybe done overtly or covertlylike that's been noted duly
noted. And I use that as energyand I use that as fuel to drive.
So yeah many many differentscenarios that I could probably
label.
Rocki Howard (13:43):
The best revenge is absolutely successes
absolutelySo let's go back because it
sounds like you certainly havefound yourself in some
situations where you were theonly one or the first one. Can
you think about a time where youwere the only or you were the
(14:05):
first and help us understand howthat felt how it felt to be in
that circumstance how it madeyou feel the challenges that
that come with being the only orthe first.
Marcus Sawyerr (14:23):
There's been many situations where I'd been
the only offer especially in astaff and environment. And as an
example, go into conferencesyou'd go to a conference you'd
look around and you'd be theonly black person that would be
there. Then I'd go and speak atconference and I'd be the only
black person that would bespeaking at a conference. To be
(14:44):
really honest how it made mefeel when I was the only one
there was like wow okay thisisn't necessarily a
representation of of the world Iwonder why that is. So I was
curious to know more I kind ofknow why it is at a high level.
But really what do these peoplethink? And do they think that
this is the right environment?
When I'm speaking on stage, Ifeel like I'm representing my
(15:06):
people. And I got friends whoaren't even in my industry. Some
of them do some, they're indifferent industries, they do
different things. But they'llmessage me and like, tell me on
a consistent basis, I make themfeel proud. And that that's
really what, what what makes mewant to do it. It's, it's, it's
(15:28):
basically for my people weren'table to get there. So, yeah.
Rocki Howard (15:37):
Do you feel the burden for that? I mean, I think
there's a couple of ways tocarry that right, it is, I'm
going to be the first I'm goingto be the only I'm going to make
my family proud. I'm going tomake my friends proud. And to
your point, you are inspired byenergy to go ahead and do that.
And you just never really thinkabout it. There is an emotional
(16:00):
tax, though, that sometimescomes along with carrying that
I'm in a situation to make mypeople proud. And more
importantly, I'm in a situationwhere I'm seeing to represent a
whole group of people. Is that aenergizer for you? Or is that a
tax?
Marcus Sawyerr (16:18):
Yeah, I see as a privilege. My family moved over
from Jamaica to the UK. And it'sbig, big family. And we are
probably wasn't meant to bewhere I am. So? Yeah. I see
(16:39):
that. I see that as a as a as aprivilege. Yeah.
Rocki Howard (16:46):
Yeah. I appreciate that. So look, you know, we're
friends. So I'm always checkingyou out. And I noticed that
recently, your social mediapictures changed. So you changed
from a job and you've changedinto a new role. And your social
media pictures changed. Andneedless to say, from my point
(17:10):
of view, your current picturesare a little less conservative
than your old pictures were. SoI'm curious, do you think how
you chose to represent yourselfpreviously, is a sacrifice that
you had to make to assimilatefor your career?
Marcus Sawyerr (17:29):
I think looking back on it, yeah, probably. So
just as an example, right, myhair's always been short. And
I've always had short hair. AndI've never really thought but
apart from when I was reallyyoung, and I used to have platts
and I used to have all thosedifferent types of hairstyles as
a kid. And then when I went intoa corporate, I was like, yeah,
you're going to go short. And Iremember having a conversation
with one of my one of mycousins, and I was like, how
(17:51):
come you growing your beard, youneed to chop it down, blah,
blah. And he was like, debatingme. And I was like, you're never
gonna make it in a corporateworld. He was right. Right. So I
spend too much energy beingclean cut, I suppose clean cut
and on brand. But maybe that'shelped me get into doors that I
might not have gotten into.
Maybe that's that's one way tolook at, I didn't see it as a
(18:12):
significant shift until Istarted growing my hair because
of COVID. And there's no barbersaround and I was like, okay,
I've got one way to go here. Andmy dad's a restaurant. So my
dad's a dread. And he's alwayshad long here, he fought in the
Olympics. So he's an Olympian.
And I remember when he went tothe Olympics in Seoul in 88, and
he had to cut his hair off, togo to the Olympics to fight so
(18:35):
he had to make a sacrifice, andHis head was down to his back,
he's grown it back now. So it'sall the way down to his butt.
And I'm, I come from that kindof similar ilk, and that
similarity. And then I rememberI had a friend of mine who was
in the same industry, and he'sgrown his hair out, and he's got
dreads. And a couple people havesent sent me a note saying, I
haven't got dreds, I've just gotlonger hair. And they said to
(18:57):
me, yeah, good to see yourocking the knotty dread. Good
to see you doing it. And sopeople are watching, and they're
seeing it. And I wouldn't say itwas a, it was a tax, I just felt
like yeah, you can be a bit morefree. When you're not, when
you're not only representingyourself in a company, you're
representing yourself. And partof it, I think is okay. Because
(19:20):
I think part of it is like whenyou're part of an organization
or you're part of a company oryou're part of a brand, being on
brand is potentially important,but not necessarily at the
sacrifice of who you are. And Ididn't feel like I was
sacrificing who I was. I justfelt like for this company, this
is that environment. I mean, ifI was playing football, I
wouldn't wear a suit on afootball pitch, just not the
(19:42):
right environment. So I thinkthat there's some there's some
aspects of that which you've gotto take into context and into
consideration.
Rocki Howard (19:50):
Agree. So let's talk about consideration right.
So there are people who arelistening who are listening
because they're allies or theirleaders in corporations and they
want to know how to be betterright. How to move the needle
(20:13):
forward, how to live up to someof the pledges and the
commitments that have been madeout there. So what advice would
you give allies leadersemployers who are committed to
diversity?
Marcus Sawyerr (20:29):
The way that I think about diversity and the
commitment is in a quite simplestructure. Which is surround the
three c's i call it which isabout connections, careers and
community. So i think you haveto make connections with people
that are not necessarily in yournetwork. And you have to start
(20:50):
building relationships. Youcan't expect to have community
without having the rightconnections. And if you're in an
organization people expect youto invest in their careers. So
for me the most important thingas well as some of the nice days
that we have celebrations,months, we have black history
(21:11):
month and people trying to getspeakers and do what that's cool
and that's nice. But helpsomeone along their career.
Really help someone along theirjourney. Invest in them and take
the time to listen and not justtalk about about be about it. So
for me it's about acting and thebiggest thing you can do it the
biggest statement is you canshow you got representation in
(21:33):
your organization. So you go outand start hiring. And if you say
well those people don't existhave you looked, have you really
looked? Because I'll tell youthey do and they exist in
abundance. So are you willing tomake that investment? And you
have to really see diversity asa value in your organization,
not just because someone's blackyou want to give them
opportunity or they deserve itand so on and so yeah okay fair
(21:55):
enough we go drive equity andequality. But these people
people are good their highquality is actually going to
help to drive your organizationforward. And you got to have
representation of your customersthat you're serving. So think
about the customers you'reserving, think about the
population that you're in andthinking are you doing enough to
drive that forwadr? Nos ofcourse we're all gonna always
(22:17):
have gaps and we're gonna havebalances that we can make and
things that we can change. Butwhere is that coming from? And
make sure that the top down issupporting it and also bottom up
so you've got push from bothareas it's like a sandwich top
down and bottom up.
Rocki Howard (22:32):
There's so many nuggets in what you said so i
want to ask a add on questionand maybe a little bit of a
controversial question but againi think because of your
experience in the staffing worldI'd be curious about your
response to this. Because toyour point, companies want to
make as a substantive differenceit starts with helping someone
(22:57):
in their career and expandingthe opportunities and truly
bringing people in. And there'sa lot of conversation of I can't
find the talent and so we'llpoint it out to you. But there
is a school of thought thatsetting goals we're not talking
hiring quotas but really andtruly for organization to say I
(23:21):
want to increase my diversepopulation by x percent which
means you've made a commitmentto do so but there is a school
of thought where some peoplethink this is a bit of reverse
discrimination
Unknown (23:35):
Yeah
Rocki Howard (23:38):
Do you have a point of view?
Marcus Sawyerr (23:39):
Yeah I do have a point of view and I think that
those people that think it'sreverse discrimination have
never been discriminatedagainst, and i think they don't
get it. And I've had the I hadthis conversation recently a
friend actually who i like alot. And I said come are you
(24:00):
serious? And he was like wellyeah well are we discriminating
and we've got to be careful thatwe don't necessarily we don't
get into a situation where we'regiving people opportunities who
don't deserve to. I said welllet me tell you this one thing
about recruiting, that you knowand I both know is it's a sub
(24:21):
it's subjective. It's both anart and a science. So you're
making judgments every day. Sowhat are your judgments based
on? Your judgments are based onyour experiences and your
history. So if your experienceand your history has have a
certain predisposition, guesswhat you're going to be making
(24:44):
unbiased since you got justlevel up you've got even up and
that's what equity is about. SoI don't see it as
discrimination. I think it'slike I mean I've been in
meetings recently where peopleare like looking at pictures of
people before they're hiringthem, because all on linkedIn.
So how you're doing that anyway?
And so on the other, on the flipside, I'm seeing people that are
(25:06):
saying, okay, well, we actuallyneed to get more black people
in. If you've got a goal inorder to do that, how you're
going to know what they don'tidentify on this, you kind of go
out searching? So I don't seeit's discriminatory, I see it as
leveling the playing field anddriving more equity, for people
that need that access. Becauseit's been, it's been so far
left, I don't mean left thatmean, left or right in a
(25:30):
political sense, but so far leftfor so long. that something has
to change.
Rocki Howard (25:37):
And that, my friends, is the difference
between equality and equity. Andit there is a difference. So let
me ask you, this, you, you, youhave this point of view. You've
had a great career, you'regetting where you're going.
(25:57):
You're having the rightconversations. You don't feel
like it's a burden, you feellike it's it's a great thing to
be able to represent your peopleproudly. What responsibility do
you feel to your colleagues thatfeel like they show up in the
(26:18):
world represented? Do you feel aresponsibility back?
Marcus Sawyerr (26:21):
Could you could you ask that again, I just
missed that for last part of thequestion.
Rocki Howard (26:26):
So do you feel like you have a responsibility
for other people who areunderrepresented to make a way
for them? What what's yourresponsibility.
Marcus Sawyerr (26:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that if
you've been fortunate enough toget let in, to whatever world
you're going into, you shouldtry and help others also make
their way as well. And I'm notthat old, I'm 37 in a week or
(26:55):
two, right? A week. And, butit's going to be less about me,
and it's going to be brought mykids. And it's going to be about
the path that I create for themand create for their friends and
family. And so for me, you'realways driving change for the
next generation. And I live byan old Jamaican saying, which is
(27:17):
each one, teach one. And thatwill allow you to reach reach
what right so for me, it's partof the responsibility of being
someone that wants to see othersprogress. If you want to see our
progress, you got to make somechanges in some sacrifice, spend
time with people spend time withpeople that are younger than you
(27:39):
spend time people that are oder, new learn from the old y
t learn from the young. It's nt always going to be at your l
vel where you earn MSA level, Imean, just your age range w
ere you're going to figure hve all the answers. There's so m
ny learnings from each others tere's and there's also another t
pic, which I think is iportant, which is reverse m
ntoring, right? Speaking to pople that have got different p
rspectives from different aeas will help you along. So I g
(28:02):
t a lot out of helping people aong the journey and u
derstanding where they're ging, because they're helping m
at the same time. So yeah, prt of that, I think is just r
sponsibility.
Rocki Howard (28:14):
Well, you get so much out of it, I would argue
you're now the next phase ofyour career is all about it. You
want to tell us a little bitabout your latest endeavor.
Marcus Sawyerr (28:21):
Yeah, sure. So I've decided to build a platform
that's focused on empoweringmulticultural professionals with
the access, so the connections,the careers, and the community,
they need to be successful andthrive. And for organizations
(28:44):
that have said, hey, I put myhand up, I want to do something
about D and I or I'm already onthat journey. So they've ever
hired ahead of D and I, we'vegot someone driving that cause
or they've put together apledge. But they don't
necessarily know how to getaccess to that network. Or maybe
they know how, but they want tosupport others and share best
(29:06):
practice. So really building acommunity to help those be
successful within technology, inparticular, I think digital
transformation will have themost change and create the most
wealth and value for thecompanies of tomorrow. So it's
called EQ.Community. You canfind it we're in iOS, we are an
(29:27):
Android as well. But
Rocki Howard (29:29):
You are on Android for those of us who are
droiders.
Marcus Sawyerr (29:33):
You can you download the app, you can become
a member, it's a its memberscommunity, and we're really help
there to help people drivechange. So you'll find content,
careers and connections thatwill be meaningful.
Rocki Howard (29:47):
Well, and we'll make sure that the links are in
the show notes and areavailable. I so appreciate you
today. Before we wrap up, youknow that I have created this
platform because I believe thatyou can change the world one
story one conversation at a timeand I believe when you give a
(30:07):
voice to people who are who aretraditionally underrepresented
it gives perspective. So as youwrap us up today I'd like for
you to tell our listeners fromyour point of view what what
would you like to say about howit feels to walk through the
corporate world as someone who'sunderrepresented?
Marcus Sawyerr (30:29):
For me personally, it feels like
there's a weight and a level ofresponsibility on your shoulders
to be the one that creates thepath for everybody else. And
sometimes that road can feellonel, but always know there
are people that need you to doit. And as I said for me
(30:53):
personally, it's a privilege andI'm just glad that I'm still
here today and made it as far asI can and I want to help as many
people as possible do the samething.
Rocki Howard (31:02):
Well I appreciate not only what you have done but
I really appreciate what you'regoing to do. And thank you for
walking that path for us. Thankyou very much.
Marcus Sawyerr (31:11):
Thanks for having me Rocki.
Rocki Howard (31:17):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority, can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative we can change the
(31:38):
world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity one story one
conversation at a time bysharing our episodes especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the Voices of Diversity podcastbe a catalyst for courageous
(31:58):
conversations and mostimportantly for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.