May 17, 2021 • 34 mins
Voices of Diversity host Rocki howard speaks to guest Bob Athwal who is a Senior Talent Manager at Skyscanner where he focuses on Race Equity and Early Careers. He is also the CoFounder of the 1 Hour Project and The Student Job Coach.
Bob is the only person I know who is a soon to be PhD who could effectively use the movie Finding Nemo to illustrate the power of allyship. His transparency on his mother's illiteracy, his journey to authenticity and his passion to support students make this a great conversation as Bob speaks to us as the Voice of a First Generation PhD.
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Rocki Howard (00:12):
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, and thepurpose of this podcast to
humanize diversity, one story,one conversation at a time. I
want our listeners to understandthe significance and the impact
that racism, bias and inequityhave on real people. I want our
(00:37):
guests to have the opportunityto share the challenges that we
the underrepresented face in thecorporate world, that media is
AI, and the overall world thatwe live in, through sharing,
listening, understanding, andcommitting to take small actions
towards change. Together, we canimpact the diversity narrative,
(01:00):
one story, one conversation at atime. And by changing the
narrative, we can change theworld.
Bob Athwal (01:09):
In certain parts of the world, you know,
particularly UK, US, people whoare of color black, indigenous
were a minority, there is nodoubt about it. There are more
white people than there are us.
So we need allies, people leastlikely to have a voice and
opinion on on issues around raceand equity of the gang of
(01:31):
probably least qualified,probably white men, followed by
white women, etc, etc, that thepeople most likely to change
views and opinions of racistminds are white men, white
women, and at the bottom ofblack men and women, other
people of color, etc. And, and Ithink that's why ally ship is so
important.
Rocki Howard (01:52):
Voices of Diversity guest, Bob Atwal is a
senior talent manager atSkyscanner where he focuses on
race equity in early careers.
Bob is also the co founder ofthe 1-hour Project and the
Student Job Coach. Bob is theonly person I know who is as
soon to be PhD who couldeffectively use the movie
Finding Nemo, to illustrate thepower of ally ship his
(02:15):
transparency about his mother'silliteracy, his journey to
authenticity, and his passion tosupport students make this a
great conversation, as Bobspeaks to us, as the voice of a
first generation PhD. Goodmorning, good afternoon, good
(02:37):
evening from wherever you are inthe world. And welcome to the
voices of diversity podcast. I'myour host Rocki Howard, and I
identify as she her black,Christian, jennex wife, Mom,
because I believe in multipledimensions of diversity. And I
believe those things are myunique value proposition and how
I show up in the world. And youare in for a real treat today,
(03:02):
as Bob joins the voices ofdiversity team here. And we're
gonna have a great, greatconversation. So Bob, I'm gonna
kick it over to you. Can youplease introduce yourself to our
audience, tell us who you arewhat you do high level your
title, and tell us give us themultiple dimensions of
diversity. How you identify.
Bob Athwal (03:25):
Yeah, hi, Rocky. And good morning. Good afternoon.
Good evening. Thank you forhaving me. I'm Bob at all. I
identify myself, let's startthere first. I'm actually
really, I love the way youidentify yourself. So I've been
using that. So I am he him. I'ma Gen X. I'm a dad, and I have a
(03:45):
son. You know, I have an uncle.
So I identify myself as in manyways, actually, more
importantly, I also identify asa first gen. One of those to go
to university here, my familyalong with my siblings. And my
sort of day job, I wear severalhats, but I get paid to be the
lead for racial diversity forSkyscanner. We're an online
(04:08):
travel comparison site. Sohopefully, you know us and
you'll use us. And I look afterearly careers, as well as keep
an eye on employer brand.
Rocki Howard (04:20):
I look you definitely have lots of hats
that you juggle and we're gonnadig into some of those. But you
know what, I know that you'vehad a really varied career,
you've been in academia, you'vebeen in corporate, you're what I
call a nonprofit entrepreneur.
So I would love before we kindof dig into the rest of it for
you to tell our audience alittle bit about your career
(04:42):
journey.
Bob Athwal (04:44):
Yeah, no, thanks.
Yeah, so I am quite unique insome ways, particularly in the
UK landscape. And so I workedafter my first degree, I spent
two years elected to be theStudent Union office. served as
president and got myselfreelected, you can only do this
two years. And so there'ssomething about sticking up for
your students and sticking upfor their rights and making sure
(05:06):
things were better. So that'skind of been with me for a long
time. That then led me to a hugeretailer, sort of competitor of
Walmart's in the UK. And Istarted sort of there on my
malaria, my grad trade, and thenwent to another organization
that people in the US will befamiliar with, and across Europe
enterprise, rent a car. Andthat's where I became a
(05:28):
recruiter, eventually, I joinedthem, as most people do, working
on the shop floor, renting cars,washing cars, you know, helping
customers that were distressedand then got moved into
recruiting, because I showedsome interest in it. And, and
that's where my HR careerstarted. And then I've, I've
(05:48):
worked for an online job board,which was a startup in the UK
back in the early noughties,which is quite a big one now.
And then went to work for one ofthe biggest utilities in Europe
to head up all of theirrecruitment and development for
early talent, and then made themove into higher education,
(06:08):
spent just under eight yearsworking in in the higher ed side
looking after students and theirexperience in notably their
careers in sports and, and wellbeing. And then came and did a
bit of consulting work. And thennow here, I'm at Skyscanner. But
along the way, yes, set up acouple of nonprofits that I'm
very proud of.
Rocki Howard (06:30):
I love that. And it is, I think it's always
interesting, because when a lotof times when you're
interviewing someone, you'relooking for a straight line and
a straight path, but some of thebest experience comes from
diverse experience. So thank youso much for sharing that with
us. I thought something wasinteresting. On your LinkedIn
(06:52):
profile, you specifically callout that you're leading race
equity, of course, along withearly careers. I'm really
curious, is that a distinctionthat you chose? How does someone
looks at that? How is thatdifferent than being Dean? d? I
just tell us why you call thatout? Yeah, I
Bob Athwal (07:14):
think so. Firstly, along the way, I've also been
studying for a PhD. And myresearch is around so
Rocki Howard (07:22):
along the way. In my spare time,
Bob Athwal (07:24):
yeah. Yeah, I try not to juggle too many things.
But yeah, but my PhD on socialmobility and, and really around
the the labor market,particularly for emerging
talent. And, and because of myinterest in, in my research,
which I'm sure I mentioned,really attacked sort of McKinsey
and Company that say that thewar for talent was the wolf, a
(07:46):
very narrow talent. My employersknew I had a real interest in
that, and I knew I had thesenonprofits. And then tragically,
as we know, the murder of GeorgeFloyd happens. And at that
point, you know, I think anumber of us, not just
employees, but employees, andpeople just good people just
said that Enough is enough. Andso I started to have
(08:10):
conversations with my employer.
And, and I think very bravely,and rightly, we made a decision
that we have a lead for dei. Andbut actually, we needed to do
something about racial andsocial justice. And we wanted to
have a lead dedicated to bipoc.
And that's how my role became anI am part of the dei team. But
(08:32):
of course, I've also, you know,early careers is, is what I'm an
expert in, I suppose in what Iwhy I joined. And then the
brand, the employer brand piecesis something new and recent,
because I think that fits acrossthe spectrum. And it's not our
saying that, you know, racialdiversity is the most important
thing, what we're saying iswe're so behind, we have so much
more work to do that actuallyneeds its dedicated focus, and
(08:55):
all attributes of the inclusionand belonging, family are
critical. But we want to focuson that making sure we do the
right thing going forward.
Rocki Howard (09:04):
That is brave. And that is bold. And I appreciate
the fact that you're saying weneed to go back and create
create equity, because there's agap there. And we are not afraid
to say we need to focus becausethere is this big gap. So I
really appreciate thatperspective. I know that you
(09:26):
have a passion around earlycareers. Right. And I'm curious,
is your did your passion aroundsupporting early careers? Do you
feel like that's a byproduct ofyour experience of being a first
gen?
Bob Athwal (09:44):
I think so. I think it's a it's, it's, I think it's
a number of things that actuallyI think, definitely byproduct of
me being first in my family, togo to university and you know,
from quite humble beginnings,really, you know, I'm the came
to along with my siblings ofimmigrants to the UK to rebuild
the country after the SecondWorld War. You know, a lot of
(10:07):
segregation and racism and otherthings you had to navigate
growing up, you know, kind ofnot being perhaps sometimes
recognizing being smart and orbeing around people that seem
super smart or just alien toyou, because they were doing
different things. And you had noidea why. And I think a
combination those factors meantI've also had some pain along
(10:28):
the way where I've got rejectedfrom places where I perhaps, in
their eyes didn't fit in. Andmore importantly, they probably
didn't want me to fit in, andmore scared of inclusion and
diversity in you know, all theequity that we're talking about.
So I think for me, being in aposition where I could then
(10:49):
recruit and try and set adifferent perspective for people
to join us not based on, youknow, who they knew, or the
academic attainment alone, orthe privilege access that they'd
had. So it just started tohappen in and unconsciously and
then became very conscious thatI started to educate the
employees, I w.as working forthat it's not about your GPA
(11:10):
grades. It's not about who, youknow, it's really about what you
bring in that that rolepotential. But we can nurture
and help and ultimately driveour organizations to represent
the communities that we'reserving.
Rocki Howard (11:27):
That it makes so much sense. And I can see how
that all comes together for you.
Let's stay on that track a bit.
And I want to have you paint abit of a picture and you alluded
to some of it as you weretalking before, can you share
with us some of the challengesthat that you've had in making
(11:48):
it to the place where you'vemade made it to in your career,
you have obviously obtained?
Quite a bit of success, right?
Not to mention that like blowPhD you're working on on the
side, right? So when you thinkabout where you are today, and
you think about some of thechallenges you had along the way
(12:09):
that are directly related backto you potentially being a man
of color, and being a firstgeneration man of color? What
What does those challenges looklike?
Bob Athwal (12:20):
I think it's, you know, being a Gen X, I think,
you know, you may appreciatethis, that, you know, we had
some opportunities afforded tous simply because of the people
before us and, you know, otherGen X's or baby boomers that had
kind of paved the way, but thatdidn't necessarily make it easy.
And there were terms or therewere things happening that we
(12:40):
will now label asmicroaggressions that we've had
to navigate through, you know,you know, classic things like,
aren't you so articulate, youknow, and, you know, where are
you from? You know, these are,these are things that you've had
to face often or visibly, peoplelooking at you, when you've got
a very sort of Western soundingname saying, but you're not why
(13:02):
literally, visibly, you can seeit in their face.
Unknown (13:05):
You have a name for that? I call it the flicker.
flicker? Yeah,
Bob Athwal (13:10):
absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think, youknow, I think those things have
just kind of been there, Ithink, I think unfortunately,
you then chose to ignore it to adegree or you just kind of let
it go over your head and justthought, you know, these people,
you know, for want of a betterword are just idiots. Yeah. And
you just kind of let it be. Butthe reality is, it kind of
frustrated you, you didn'trealize actually unconsciously
(13:33):
how much damage that was perhapshaving, and, or how it was
eroding your confidence when youwere perhaps wanting to go for
some other opportunity or applyfor some other industry. And you
just kind of felt Well, youknow, they don't like people
like me, so there's no point andso you self select yourself out.
And I would say that my careerinitially was spent doing those
types of things withoutrecognizing that actually, I
(13:56):
could have gone into these otherorganizations and perhaps done
certain things. And I think, youknow, along the way, the bit
that's been really helpful is isand I recognize that recognize
this now as I'm, as I've gotolder that the people around me
that spotted something, thosegenuine allies, that I had no
idea what was going on, but theyrecognize something that ruinous
(14:18):
and then basically helped menurture it and didn't expect
anything in return the bestpeople really. And I've tried to
do that. Now I try to give moreof my time I got taught really
early to, you know, givesomething back, never expect
anything in return and seek todo those favors because it will
come around for you at somepoint and, and I've lived by
that philosophy and I have tosay, certainly the last 1520
(14:40):
years. It's been brilliant. It'sbeen amazing.
Rocki Howard (14:46):
Well, I know that you are big believer in the
power of ally ship and the powerof mentorship so much so that
you founded the one hourproject. So I want you to tell
us why allies and mentorship isimportant. And please, please,
please tell us about the onehour project.
Bob Athwal (15:04):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think
mental ship or ally ship orcoaching, you know, they're
they're three different things,but they interchangeably happen.
Some people do all three, somepeople just do aspects of it.
And I think why that's soimportant in certain parts of
the world, you know,particularly UK, US. People who
(15:26):
are of color black, indigenouswere a minority, there is no
doubt about it. There are morewhite people than there are us.
So we need allies cares. And oneof my colleagues very powerfully
put this into context, when it'sjust, it's just stayed with me.
So people least likely to have avoice and opinion on, on issues
(15:49):
around race and equity,everything else are probably
released, qualified, probablywhite men, followed by white
women, etc, etc. But the peoplemost likely to change views and
opinions and racist minds arewhite men and white women. And
at the bottom are black men andwomen, other people of color,
etc. And, and I think that's whyally ship is so important. The
(16:11):
other bit around mental ship andsort of coaching why that's so
critical, is you don't know whatyou don't know. And if you've
not had access to stuff, thenyou are, I suppose the best way
I can describe this, and this ishow my PhD started. So for any
of you Pixar fans out there, ifyou've ever watched Finding
Nemo, what what's going on inthe world, in my view, and I
(16:34):
don't think Pixar intended thisto be the case. But when Marlin,
the dad of Nemo is going to lookfor him, and he goes through the
jellyfish to help do Dory, hethen wakes up the next scene is
on the back of crush the turtle,and basically crushed the total
saying, if you want to go toSydney, you got to ride the, you
got to ride the I think it'scalled the East ocean current or
(16:55):
something, you know, and fasttrack that current to get to
Sydney. Now that's years of, ofexperience and knowledge being
passed down from toe to toehundreds of years of knowledge.
And actually, they fast track toSydney, now that the fish may
have got to Sydney anyway, butit may have taken them longer.
But the fact that someone wasable to stop and say, Hey, hang
about what you need to do isride this current and you'll get
(17:17):
there really quickly, I think iswhat's happening in the real
world. So if you don't havethose types of mentors, like
crush in Finding Nemo, is quitehard not to say you'll never get
there. But you'll get therequicker. And I think the one
hour project for me isasummarization of my working
career in in education andcorporate side and and startup
(17:39):
side, just to recognize thatthere are so many people who are
first in their families firstgens, underserved
underrepresented low socioeconomic, whichever
categorization you want to use,that just don't understand how
that works. And the one ourproject is really a nonprofit
design designed to ask forvolunteers to impact 1000
(18:02):
students, and we're going totake it us side we're going to
take in South Africa, we'regonna take it Australia, we've
piloted it in the UK. But thepoint being is give up your hour
of expertise about your industrysector help a student who is
predominantly a first yearfreshmen student, maybe
sophomore, second year student,depending where you are in the
world. So they recognize theinterventions or the types of
(18:24):
activities they're going to needto engage in, in order to be
attractive to these types oforganizations, that industry
sectors rather than get to theirgraduation, and have no
opportunities, and all of asudden realize that because they
did do a spring insight weekback in their freshman year,
they're now out of the game. Andso the one our project is really
designed to help them have anaction plan and a bit of an idea
(18:49):
of what is required. And moreimportantly, when we talk about
professional services, or wetalk about, you know, sectors
such as tech that I've been in,you know, I guess you're in, you
know, what does it actuallymean? You know, when we talk
about tech businesses, you know,what, what sits behind front end
back end, what sits behindinfrastructure, security, etc,
etc. And really demystify that.
Rocki Howard (19:10):
I think what you're talking about is so
important, and I find that it isa true gap in the education
system. We have trained peoplethat if they go through school,
and they get their degree, theyare now set up for success. But
that is not exactly the case fora first generation person.
Because there's so muchknowledge that comes from a
(19:31):
community that prepares you togo out into a white collar
working world and even come intothe education system and
navigate that correctly. Andwithout, without this kind of
help or support. Those firstgenerations can make that
investment and still be veryexcluded. I wonder if maybe you
(19:55):
could bring that to life for usmaybe from a personal point of
view. To help us understand, didyou have experiences where you
felt excluded? You know, fromfrom the career track from
opportunities, specificallybecause you were first
generation and you didn't knowthe rules of engagement?
Bob Athwal (20:17):
Yeah, I, I absolutely did. I mean, it was a
personal it's a personal roadtraveled. And I know, you know,
one of the reasons why I'm sopassionate about first gen Ed's
is because I am one of them.
And, and as I've mentioned toyou, Rocky, you know, my mum's
illiterate, and there's noschool widow village back in
India. And so, you know, mysiblings, and I were very lucky,
(20:38):
you know, just to be educatedschool level, let alone go to
college, or college severaltimes over. And I think, you
know, for me, talking to otherfirst gen, so my PhD is called
the hidden talent. And thestories that sit beneath them,
is that what we are is we'restreet smart. And we're late
bloomers. And typically, thereason we're street smart and
(21:01):
late bloomers is because we'vehad to navigate certain issues.
That doesn't mean it doesn'thave for other racial groups,
white that are also from lowersocio economic groups. But as we
know, when we talk aboutprivilege and white privilege,
there's a difference in currencyof skin color. There's a
difference in lived experiences,there's also differences of
person of color, and someonewho's black in terms of my lived
experience, but we havesimilarities. The point I'm
(21:22):
making around, you know, notknowing is that when you are
from one of these backgrounds,actually, people know what
you've had to do, you'veprobably had to endure some
stuff that others would onlyever dream of. But actually,
it's made you resilient, it'smade you pick yourself up from
(21:44):
the floor and start again, it'smade you want to help others.
And how many times do we hearthe story that you know, what I
find really humbling when I wentto a different part of the world
is those that have so little oneto give so much. And I think
that's so true. And so for me,the piece around, having those
experiences going through, youknow, getting to university,
(22:09):
actually not feeling like Ibelong there. And that belonging
was really important feelinglike everyone was smarter than
me. And they were saying thingsand doing things that I had no
idea what it meant. And I wasjust pretending and then just
felt out of place really justfelt completely out of place.
Until someone helped meunderstand it. And, and as you
(22:29):
gather those experiences, youthen start to piece them
together, then they start tomake sense. But I would say up
until then, I know this is quitefrightening that I'm about to
admit. But I would say up untilI got to 40. It said it was
always like that. And then after40, after Microsoft experiences
in work and in the sort of theawards and the things that we'd
(22:52):
done along the way with theteams and the fantastic people I
work with, I suddenly realizedas I hit my early 40s, that
actually, how's better thanmost, I knew more than most. And
actually, I hadn't actually gonefor some of those opportunities,
because I felt like I'd getrejected and I should have done.
And so how do we ensure thatdoesn't happen for others? Not
(23:14):
to say that, you know, I regretany of the the journey or the
path that I've taken, I think ifI hadn't taken that journey or
the path, we wouldn't be heretoday.
Rocki Howard (23:24):
Now, that's it's incredible. And I do think it
does take time. And that's oneof the prices we pay along the
way. It's a bit of a tax that wepay. That's we have to navigate
so many things that by the timewe really step into our own
sometimes it's a little bitlater for us now don't count us
(23:45):
out. We're still got lots ofstuff to do. But that
realization comes a little bitlater. I appreciate you sharing
that so transparently. I here'san interesting question. So we
now start to learn the rules ofthe game, we now start to
understand how we're supposed toshow up where we're supposed to
(24:05):
show up what the expectationsare. And and by the time you get
to a certain status, you willalso understand what the biases
are and what you're facingagainst. I'm curious for you as
you learn those corporate rules.
Did you feel like youcompromised or had to code
switch? Or did you feel like oh,no, I've I've really actually
(24:28):
just understood and now I'mplaying the same game as
everybody else.
Bob Athwal (24:35):
No, I said it's a really good point. I'd say it's
a tale of two halves. I wouldsay. code switching was
definitely part of the earlysort of, you know, when I first
started my career, I felt I hadto pretend to be somebody or
pretend that I knew things thatI didn't know anything about. or
rapidly try and learn thosethings. I think what What's
(25:00):
become, I would say in the last15 years certainly is I've been
myself. And I think that hasbeen the sort of transformation
really, that was also to thesort of freedom of knowing that
actually, when I got into my40s, that actually, I was
probably better than most insome things. And that's not me
(25:21):
being arrogant, it was just thefact that giving myself that
acknowledgement that I wasbetter than I thought I was.
And, you know, because I didn't,I didn't really think that the
start. And I think the codeswitching piece is so important
and around just being yourauthentic self and being honest
and open and transparent. And Ithink where I have been
(25:41):
successful now is in a group ofenvironments that I kind of
network in the most consistentthing someone will say to you is
here Bob, Bob is not changedactually, because I've been
myself my authentic self for 15odd years now. I talk the way I
do it, sometimes referred to asa bit street in the UK, but I'm
(26:04):
not going to put on a poshaccent because I'm not posh. You
know, I, I sometimes get mywords mixed up. But you know,
you know, even though I was bornin the UK, English is still a
second language. To me, Punjabiis my first language. I just
don't know some of the phrases.
My English was a bit behind whenI was at school, if I'm honest,
I was I was a late starter, Ireally probably didn't see the
(26:25):
best of my work until I got tomy postgraduate piece and did
did my MBA, that's probably thebest work I ever did, actually.
But my schooling was tradedreadful. And my teachers
probably never really liked whatI remember bumping into one of
my teachers when he, when herecognized that I was going to
university, he couldn't believeit. And when I told him, I was
going to university to do amaster degree, he couldn't
(26:46):
believe it even more, because Iwas that poor at it at school
parent now. So.
Unknown (26:52):
Wow,
Rocki Howard (26:53):
wow, wow. Some people are really energized and
empowered by the challenges thatnavigating the world being
underrepresented presents, andsome people are exhausted and
emotionally taxed. Where do yousit on that continuum? What's
(27:13):
been the impact on youpersonally,
Bob Athwal (27:18):
I think I've spent my career I would say, I don't
think you could argue anyone whoknows me will say I've spent my
career trying to help students,you know, and graduates, really,
I've really fought that battlefor a long time about, you know,
getting rid of your GPAs, youknow, looking at the
institutions, you know, why isthe Ivy League, the most coveted
type. And I've done a reallygood job, and I've convinced
(27:41):
others to come on that journey.
He, I think the reflection forme, again, goes back to George
Floyd, if I'm honest, you know,had I become complicit in this
environment, this corporateenvironment where, even though I
understood the rules of thegame, I didn't call in or call
out certain things. And I haveworked for some senior people
now and beat around those CDrooms, as, as many of us have,
(28:03):
and, you know, I'm sure you'llrecognize where you do wonder
where some of these people havecome from. And the and you do
wonder what goes on in theirminds, and their thoughts and
how detached they are from anumber of things and an almost a
bit of a sort of self belief,right, that they they know, the
answers weren't really there.
(28:24):
And, and I think what's happenedsince, unfortunately, the murder
and tragic death of George Floydis for me to ask myself, every
time I've been in those seniorpositions, every time I've been,
you know, able to engage withpeople that are at sweezey level
or had access to seniorprofessors in universities, what
did I do to really help themunderstand that it wasn't good
(28:50):
enough that I was the only onein that room. It wasn't good
enough that we weren't doingenough for others like me to
come through, and why weren't weand what was going on? And I
think that's been the realshift. I think now, you know,
I'm a lot more vocal aboutstuff, vocal in a way that you
can't argue. So you know, I'vegot good manners, I swear a lot,
but I've got really goodmanners. So, you know, I do my
(29:14):
best to be as polite, albeit,quite challenging for people
because I just say, it's goingto be uncomfortable. Like, we've
got to have this conversation.
And we're a snapshot in history.
And that's the other bit peoplehave to understand these. Were,
this is a snapshot in history.
We're paying for our sins of ourforefathers and mothers, whoever
they may be what they've done,and I'm talking about the
history, the colonization andeverything else. And and what we
(29:36):
need to do is Yeah, we're notsaying that, you know, you had
something to do with it. Butwhat we're saying is, you have
everything to do with it interms of fixing it now. And
making sure we never go back andwe reset that dial because all
the issues around the world. Itstems from our history.
Rocki Howard (29:58):
Absolutely does
Bob Athwal (29:59):
and So I've managed eyes by say, Well, actually,
whilst I'm still in thisposition and working and
continue to do so then I'm justgoing to be a big voice in terms
of trying to do the right thingby making sure we don't go back
to being complicit and justaccepting, because that's no
longer the case. I don't want mykids growing up in a world where
they have to do that andcompromise. And nor should they.
(30:23):
And that's where I'm at.
Rocki Howard (30:25):
Wow, I can't believe we're almost at the end
of our time, because you and Icould probably talk for hours.
So I've got I've got two finalquestions for you. One is, I'd
love for you to give one pieceof advice. Like if, if an ally
is listening today. And youcould say to them, here's the
one thing that you can startdoing today to support people of
(30:51):
color in the workplace, firstgeneration people in the
workplace, what would that onepiece of advice be?
Bob Athwal (30:59):
truly understand the lived experience for some of us
and why that means it'simportant to become anti racist.
Understand what that termactually means. And what we're
asking for.
Rocki Howard (31:10):
Cool. So close me out, you know, you know that
this is a platform to give avoice to people who are
underrepresented, you know, andthis is your time, I'd really
like for you to help peopleunderstand what it feels like,
when you are walking through theworld, the world of work as a
(31:31):
first generation person ofcolor.
Bob Athwal (31:36):
Yeah, I think, recognize what you bring,
recognize the diversity ofthought, as well as the optical
diversity, you bring all thegender diversity, you bring the
sexual orientation diversity,you bring whatever
characteristic, you bring thatfirst generation piece, the
intersectionality of it isacross so much, so don't forget
(31:57):
what you're adding, in terms ofconversation. And the way I
describe it to people now again,is, is classic, do not allow
organizations to dupe you intothinking groupthink is the only
way I the same old people fromthe same old places having the
same old conversations. And ifyou do want any evidence, then
(32:20):
just read the unfortunate SpaceShuttle Challenger disaster
where those engineers at NASAcould not solve the problem
because they were suffering fromgroup thing. So that would be my
sort of piece is just know whatyou bring to the party and be
proud of it.
Rocki Howard (32:35):
And be proud of it. You don't have to be
perfect, just be proud. I'm soexcited to have had you today
sharing your wisdom and yourperspective with us.
Unknown (32:45):
Thank you so
Rocki Howard (32:47):
so very much. And thank you for being a voice of
diversity.
Bob Athwal (32:52):
Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard (32:55):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(33:16):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(33:36):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, and thepurpose of this podcast to
humanize diversity, one story,one conversation at a time. I
want our listeners to understandthe significance and the impact
that racism, bias and inequityhave on real people. I want our
(00:37):
guests to have the opportunityto share the challenges that we
the underrepresented face in thecorporate world, that media is
AI, and the overall world thatwe live in, through sharing,
listening, understanding, andcommitting to take small actions
towards change. Together, we canimpact the diversity narrative,
(01:00):
one story, one conversation at atime. And by changing the
narrative, we can change theworld.
Bob Athwal (01:09):
In certain parts of the world, you know,
particularly UK, US, people whoare of color black, indigenous
were a minority, there is nodoubt about it. There are more
white people than there are us.
So we need allies, people leastlikely to have a voice and
opinion on on issues around raceand equity of the gang of
(01:31):
probably least qualified,probably white men, followed by
white women, etc, etc, that thepeople most likely to change
views and opinions of racistminds are white men, white
women, and at the bottom ofblack men and women, other
people of color, etc. And, and Ithink that's why ally ship is so
important.
Rocki Howard (01:52):
Voices of Diversity guest, Bob Atwal is a
senior talent manager atSkyscanner where he focuses on
race equity in early careers.
Bob is also the co founder ofthe 1-hour Project and the
Student Job Coach. Bob is theonly person I know who is as
soon to be PhD who couldeffectively use the movie
Finding Nemo, to illustrate thepower of ally ship his
(02:15):
transparency about his mother'silliteracy, his journey to
authenticity, and his passion tosupport students make this a
great conversation, as Bobspeaks to us, as the voice of a
first generation PhD. Goodmorning, good afternoon, good
(02:37):
evening from wherever you are inthe world. And welcome to the
voices of diversity podcast. I'myour host Rocki Howard, and I
identify as she her black,Christian, jennex wife, Mom,
because I believe in multipledimensions of diversity. And I
believe those things are myunique value proposition and how
I show up in the world. And youare in for a real treat today,
(03:02):
as Bob joins the voices ofdiversity team here. And we're
gonna have a great, greatconversation. So Bob, I'm gonna
kick it over to you. Can youplease introduce yourself to our
audience, tell us who you arewhat you do high level your
title, and tell us give us themultiple dimensions of
diversity. How you identify.
Bob Athwal (03:25):
Yeah, hi, Rocky. And good morning. Good afternoon.
Good evening. Thank you forhaving me. I'm Bob at all. I
identify myself, let's startthere first. I'm actually
really, I love the way youidentify yourself. So I've been
using that. So I am he him. I'ma Gen X. I'm a dad, and I have a
(03:45):
son. You know, I have an uncle.
So I identify myself as in manyways, actually, more
importantly, I also identify asa first gen. One of those to go
to university here, my familyalong with my siblings. And my
sort of day job, I wear severalhats, but I get paid to be the
lead for racial diversity forSkyscanner. We're an online
(04:08):
travel comparison site. Sohopefully, you know us and
you'll use us. And I look afterearly careers, as well as keep
an eye on employer brand.
Rocki Howard (04:20):
I look you definitely have lots of hats
that you juggle and we're gonnadig into some of those. But you
know what, I know that you'vehad a really varied career,
you've been in academia, you'vebeen in corporate, you're what I
call a nonprofit entrepreneur.
So I would love before we kindof dig into the rest of it for
you to tell our audience alittle bit about your career
(04:42):
journey.
Bob Athwal (04:44):
Yeah, no, thanks.
Yeah, so I am quite unique insome ways, particularly in the
UK landscape. And so I workedafter my first degree, I spent
two years elected to be theStudent Union office. served as
president and got myselfreelected, you can only do this
two years. And so there'ssomething about sticking up for
your students and sticking upfor their rights and making sure
(05:06):
things were better. So that'skind of been with me for a long
time. That then led me to a hugeretailer, sort of competitor of
Walmart's in the UK. And Istarted sort of there on my
malaria, my grad trade, and thenwent to another organization
that people in the US will befamiliar with, and across Europe
enterprise, rent a car. Andthat's where I became a
(05:28):
recruiter, eventually, I joinedthem, as most people do, working
on the shop floor, renting cars,washing cars, you know, helping
customers that were distressedand then got moved into
recruiting, because I showedsome interest in it. And, and
that's where my HR careerstarted. And then I've, I've
(05:48):
worked for an online job board,which was a startup in the UK
back in the early noughties,which is quite a big one now.
And then went to work for one ofthe biggest utilities in Europe
to head up all of theirrecruitment and development for
early talent, and then made themove into higher education,
(06:08):
spent just under eight yearsworking in in the higher ed side
looking after students and theirexperience in notably their
careers in sports and, and wellbeing. And then came and did a
bit of consulting work. And thennow here, I'm at Skyscanner. But
along the way, yes, set up acouple of nonprofits that I'm
very proud of.
Rocki Howard (06:30):
I love that. And it is, I think it's always
interesting, because when a lotof times when you're
interviewing someone, you'relooking for a straight line and
a straight path, but some of thebest experience comes from
diverse experience. So thank youso much for sharing that with
us. I thought something wasinteresting. On your LinkedIn
(06:52):
profile, you specifically callout that you're leading race
equity, of course, along withearly careers. I'm really
curious, is that a distinctionthat you chose? How does someone
looks at that? How is thatdifferent than being Dean? d? I
just tell us why you call thatout? Yeah, I
Bob Athwal (07:14):
think so. Firstly, along the way, I've also been
studying for a PhD. And myresearch is around so
Rocki Howard (07:22):
along the way. In my spare time,
Bob Athwal (07:24):
yeah. Yeah, I try not to juggle too many things.
But yeah, but my PhD on socialmobility and, and really around
the the labor market,particularly for emerging
talent. And, and because of myinterest in, in my research,
which I'm sure I mentioned,really attacked sort of McKinsey
and Company that say that thewar for talent was the wolf, a
(07:46):
very narrow talent. My employersknew I had a real interest in
that, and I knew I had thesenonprofits. And then tragically,
as we know, the murder of GeorgeFloyd happens. And at that
point, you know, I think anumber of us, not just
employees, but employees, andpeople just good people just
said that Enough is enough. Andso I started to have
(08:10):
conversations with my employer.
And, and I think very bravely,and rightly, we made a decision
that we have a lead for dei. Andbut actually, we needed to do
something about racial andsocial justice. And we wanted to
have a lead dedicated to bipoc.
And that's how my role became anI am part of the dei team. But
(08:32):
of course, I've also, you know,early careers is, is what I'm an
expert in, I suppose in what Iwhy I joined. And then the
brand, the employer brand piecesis something new and recent,
because I think that fits acrossthe spectrum. And it's not our
saying that, you know, racialdiversity is the most important
thing, what we're saying iswe're so behind, we have so much
more work to do that actuallyneeds its dedicated focus, and
(08:55):
all attributes of the inclusionand belonging, family are
critical. But we want to focuson that making sure we do the
right thing going forward.
Rocki Howard (09:04):
That is brave. And that is bold. And I appreciate
the fact that you're saying weneed to go back and create
create equity, because there's agap there. And we are not afraid
to say we need to focus becausethere is this big gap. So I
really appreciate thatperspective. I know that you
(09:26):
have a passion around earlycareers. Right. And I'm curious,
is your did your passion aroundsupporting early careers? Do you
feel like that's a byproduct ofyour experience of being a first
gen?
Bob Athwal (09:44):
I think so. I think it's a it's, it's, I think it's
a number of things that actuallyI think, definitely byproduct of
me being first in my family, togo to university and you know,
from quite humble beginnings,really, you know, I'm the came
to along with my siblings ofimmigrants to the UK to rebuild
the country after the SecondWorld War. You know, a lot of
(10:07):
segregation and racism and otherthings you had to navigate
growing up, you know, kind ofnot being perhaps sometimes
recognizing being smart and orbeing around people that seem
super smart or just alien toyou, because they were doing
different things. And you had noidea why. And I think a
combination those factors meantI've also had some pain along
(10:28):
the way where I've got rejectedfrom places where I perhaps, in
their eyes didn't fit in. Andmore importantly, they probably
didn't want me to fit in, andmore scared of inclusion and
diversity in you know, all theequity that we're talking about.
So I think for me, being in aposition where I could then
(10:49):
recruit and try and set adifferent perspective for people
to join us not based on, youknow, who they knew, or the
academic attainment alone, orthe privilege access that they'd
had. So it just started tohappen in and unconsciously and
then became very conscious thatI started to educate the
employees, I w.as working forthat it's not about your GPA
(11:10):
grades. It's not about who, youknow, it's really about what you
bring in that that rolepotential. But we can nurture
and help and ultimately driveour organizations to represent
the communities that we'reserving.
Rocki Howard (11:27):
That it makes so much sense. And I can see how
that all comes together for you.
Let's stay on that track a bit.
And I want to have you paint abit of a picture and you alluded
to some of it as you weretalking before, can you share
with us some of the challengesthat that you've had in making
(11:48):
it to the place where you'vemade made it to in your career,
you have obviously obtained?
Quite a bit of success, right?
Not to mention that like blowPhD you're working on on the
side, right? So when you thinkabout where you are today, and
you think about some of thechallenges you had along the way
(12:09):
that are directly related backto you potentially being a man
of color, and being a firstgeneration man of color? What
What does those challenges looklike?
Bob Athwal (12:20):
I think it's, you know, being a Gen X, I think,
you know, you may appreciatethis, that, you know, we had
some opportunities afforded tous simply because of the people
before us and, you know, otherGen X's or baby boomers that had
kind of paved the way, but thatdidn't necessarily make it easy.
And there were terms or therewere things happening that we
(12:40):
will now label asmicroaggressions that we've had
to navigate through, you know,you know, classic things like,
aren't you so articulate, youknow, and, you know, where are
you from? You know, these are,these are things that you've had
to face often or visibly, peoplelooking at you, when you've got
a very sort of Western soundingname saying, but you're not why
(13:02):
literally, visibly, you can seeit in their face.
Unknown (13:05):
You have a name for that? I call it the flicker.
flicker? Yeah,
Bob Athwal (13:10):
absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think, youknow, I think those things have
just kind of been there, Ithink, I think unfortunately,
you then chose to ignore it to adegree or you just kind of let
it go over your head and justthought, you know, these people,
you know, for want of a betterword are just idiots. Yeah. And
you just kind of let it be. Butthe reality is, it kind of
frustrated you, you didn'trealize actually unconsciously
(13:33):
how much damage that was perhapshaving, and, or how it was
eroding your confidence when youwere perhaps wanting to go for
some other opportunity or applyfor some other industry. And you
just kind of felt Well, youknow, they don't like people
like me, so there's no point andso you self select yourself out.
And I would say that my careerinitially was spent doing those
types of things withoutrecognizing that actually, I
(13:56):
could have gone into these otherorganizations and perhaps done
certain things. And I think, youknow, along the way, the bit
that's been really helpful is isand I recognize that recognize
this now as I'm, as I've gotolder that the people around me
that spotted something, thosegenuine allies, that I had no
idea what was going on, but theyrecognize something that ruinous
(14:18):
and then basically helped menurture it and didn't expect
anything in return the bestpeople really. And I've tried to
do that. Now I try to give moreof my time I got taught really
early to, you know, givesomething back, never expect
anything in return and seek todo those favors because it will
come around for you at somepoint and, and I've lived by
that philosophy and I have tosay, certainly the last 1520
(14:40):
years. It's been brilliant. It'sbeen amazing.
Rocki Howard (14:46):
Well, I know that you are big believer in the
power of ally ship and the powerof mentorship so much so that
you founded the one hourproject. So I want you to tell
us why allies and mentorship isimportant. And please, please,
please tell us about the onehour project.
Bob Athwal (15:04):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think
mental ship or ally ship orcoaching, you know, they're
they're three different things,but they interchangeably happen.
Some people do all three, somepeople just do aspects of it.
And I think why that's soimportant in certain parts of
the world, you know,particularly UK, US. People who
(15:26):
are of color black, indigenouswere a minority, there is no
doubt about it. There are morewhite people than there are us.
So we need allies cares. And oneof my colleagues very powerfully
put this into context, when it'sjust, it's just stayed with me.
So people least likely to have avoice and opinion on, on issues
(15:49):
around race and equity,everything else are probably
released, qualified, probablywhite men, followed by white
women, etc, etc. But the peoplemost likely to change views and
opinions and racist minds arewhite men and white women. And
at the bottom are black men andwomen, other people of color,
etc. And, and I think that's whyally ship is so important. The
(16:11):
other bit around mental ship andsort of coaching why that's so
critical, is you don't know whatyou don't know. And if you've
not had access to stuff, thenyou are, I suppose the best way
I can describe this, and this ishow my PhD started. So for any
of you Pixar fans out there, ifyou've ever watched Finding
Nemo, what what's going on inthe world, in my view, and I
(16:34):
don't think Pixar intended thisto be the case. But when Marlin,
the dad of Nemo is going to lookfor him, and he goes through the
jellyfish to help do Dory, hethen wakes up the next scene is
on the back of crush the turtle,and basically crushed the total
saying, if you want to go toSydney, you got to ride the, you
got to ride the I think it'scalled the East ocean current or
(16:55):
something, you know, and fasttrack that current to get to
Sydney. Now that's years of, ofexperience and knowledge being
passed down from toe to toehundreds of years of knowledge.
And actually, they fast track toSydney, now that the fish may
have got to Sydney anyway, butit may have taken them longer.
But the fact that someone wasable to stop and say, Hey, hang
about what you need to do isride this current and you'll get
(17:17):
there really quickly, I think iswhat's happening in the real
world. So if you don't havethose types of mentors, like
crush in Finding Nemo, is quitehard not to say you'll never get
there. But you'll get therequicker. And I think the one
hour project for me isasummarization of my working
career in in education andcorporate side and and startup
(17:39):
side, just to recognize thatthere are so many people who are
first in their families firstgens, underserved
underrepresented low socioeconomic, whichever
categorization you want to use,that just don't understand how
that works. And the one ourproject is really a nonprofit
design designed to ask forvolunteers to impact 1000
(18:02):
students, and we're going totake it us side we're going to
take in South Africa, we'regonna take it Australia, we've
piloted it in the UK. But thepoint being is give up your hour
of expertise about your industrysector help a student who is
predominantly a first yearfreshmen student, maybe
sophomore, second year student,depending where you are in the
world. So they recognize theinterventions or the types of
(18:24):
activities they're going to needto engage in, in order to be
attractive to these types oforganizations, that industry
sectors rather than get to theirgraduation, and have no
opportunities, and all of asudden realize that because they
did do a spring insight weekback in their freshman year,
they're now out of the game. Andso the one our project is really
designed to help them have anaction plan and a bit of an idea
(18:49):
of what is required. And moreimportantly, when we talk about
professional services, or wetalk about, you know, sectors
such as tech that I've been in,you know, I guess you're in, you
know, what does it actuallymean? You know, when we talk
about tech businesses, you know,what, what sits behind front end
back end, what sits behindinfrastructure, security, etc,
etc. And really demystify that.
Rocki Howard (19:10):
I think what you're talking about is so
important, and I find that it isa true gap in the education
system. We have trained peoplethat if they go through school,
and they get their degree, theyare now set up for success. But
that is not exactly the case fora first generation person.
Because there's so muchknowledge that comes from a
(19:31):
community that prepares you togo out into a white collar
working world and even come intothe education system and
navigate that correctly. Andwithout, without this kind of
help or support. Those firstgenerations can make that
investment and still be veryexcluded. I wonder if maybe you
(19:55):
could bring that to life for usmaybe from a personal point of
view. To help us understand, didyou have experiences where you
felt excluded? You know, fromfrom the career track from
opportunities, specificallybecause you were first
generation and you didn't knowthe rules of engagement?
Bob Athwal (20:17):
Yeah, I, I absolutely did. I mean, it was a
personal it's a personal roadtraveled. And I know, you know,
one of the reasons why I'm sopassionate about first gen Ed's
is because I am one of them.
And, and as I've mentioned toyou, Rocky, you know, my mum's
illiterate, and there's noschool widow village back in
India. And so, you know, mysiblings, and I were very lucky,
(20:38):
you know, just to be educatedschool level, let alone go to
college, or college severaltimes over. And I think, you
know, for me, talking to otherfirst gen, so my PhD is called
the hidden talent. And thestories that sit beneath them,
is that what we are is we'restreet smart. And we're late
bloomers. And typically, thereason we're street smart and
(21:01):
late bloomers is because we'vehad to navigate certain issues.
That doesn't mean it doesn'thave for other racial groups,
white that are also from lowersocio economic groups. But as we
know, when we talk aboutprivilege and white privilege,
there's a difference in currencyof skin color. There's a
difference in lived experiences,there's also differences of
person of color, and someonewho's black in terms of my lived
experience, but we havesimilarities. The point I'm
(21:22):
making around, you know, notknowing is that when you are
from one of these backgrounds,actually, people know what
you've had to do, you'veprobably had to endure some
stuff that others would onlyever dream of. But actually,
it's made you resilient, it'smade you pick yourself up from
(21:44):
the floor and start again, it'smade you want to help others.
And how many times do we hearthe story that you know, what I
find really humbling when I wentto a different part of the world
is those that have so little oneto give so much. And I think
that's so true. And so for me,the piece around, having those
experiences going through, youknow, getting to university,
(22:09):
actually not feeling like Ibelong there. And that belonging
was really important feelinglike everyone was smarter than
me. And they were saying thingsand doing things that I had no
idea what it meant. And I wasjust pretending and then just
felt out of place really justfelt completely out of place.
Until someone helped meunderstand it. And, and as you
(22:29):
gather those experiences, youthen start to piece them
together, then they start tomake sense. But I would say up
until then, I know this is quitefrightening that I'm about to
admit. But I would say up untilI got to 40. It said it was
always like that. And then after40, after Microsoft experiences
in work and in the sort of theawards and the things that we'd
(22:52):
done along the way with theteams and the fantastic people I
work with, I suddenly realizedas I hit my early 40s, that
actually, how's better thanmost, I knew more than most. And
actually, I hadn't actually gonefor some of those opportunities,
because I felt like I'd getrejected and I should have done.
And so how do we ensure thatdoesn't happen for others? Not
(23:14):
to say that, you know, I regretany of the the journey or the
path that I've taken, I think ifI hadn't taken that journey or
the path, we wouldn't be heretoday.
Rocki Howard (23:24):
Now, that's it's incredible. And I do think it
does take time. And that's oneof the prices we pay along the
way. It's a bit of a tax that wepay. That's we have to navigate
so many things that by the timewe really step into our own
sometimes it's a little bitlater for us now don't count us
(23:45):
out. We're still got lots ofstuff to do. But that
realization comes a little bitlater. I appreciate you sharing
that so transparently. I here'san interesting question. So we
now start to learn the rules ofthe game, we now start to
understand how we're supposed toshow up where we're supposed to
(24:05):
show up what the expectationsare. And and by the time you get
to a certain status, you willalso understand what the biases
are and what you're facingagainst. I'm curious for you as
you learn those corporate rules.
Did you feel like youcompromised or had to code
switch? Or did you feel like oh,no, I've I've really actually
(24:28):
just understood and now I'mplaying the same game as
everybody else.
Bob Athwal (24:35):
No, I said it's a really good point. I'd say it's
a tale of two halves. I wouldsay. code switching was
definitely part of the earlysort of, you know, when I first
started my career, I felt I hadto pretend to be somebody or
pretend that I knew things thatI didn't know anything about. or
rapidly try and learn thosethings. I think what What's
(25:00):
become, I would say in the last15 years certainly is I've been
myself. And I think that hasbeen the sort of transformation
really, that was also to thesort of freedom of knowing that
actually, when I got into my40s, that actually, I was
probably better than most insome things. And that's not me
(25:21):
being arrogant, it was just thefact that giving myself that
acknowledgement that I wasbetter than I thought I was.
And, you know, because I didn't,I didn't really think that the
start. And I think the codeswitching piece is so important
and around just being yourauthentic self and being honest
and open and transparent. And Ithink where I have been
(25:41):
successful now is in a group ofenvironments that I kind of
network in the most consistentthing someone will say to you is
here Bob, Bob is not changedactually, because I've been
myself my authentic self for 15odd years now. I talk the way I
do it, sometimes referred to asa bit street in the UK, but I'm
(26:04):
not going to put on a poshaccent because I'm not posh. You
know, I, I sometimes get mywords mixed up. But you know,
you know, even though I was bornin the UK, English is still a
second language. To me, Punjabiis my first language. I just
don't know some of the phrases.
My English was a bit behind whenI was at school, if I'm honest,
I was I was a late starter, Ireally probably didn't see the
(26:25):
best of my work until I got tomy postgraduate piece and did
did my MBA, that's probably thebest work I ever did, actually.
But my schooling was tradedreadful. And my teachers
probably never really liked whatI remember bumping into one of
my teachers when he, when herecognized that I was going to
university, he couldn't believeit. And when I told him, I was
going to university to do amaster degree, he couldn't
(26:46):
believe it even more, because Iwas that poor at it at school
parent now. So.
Unknown (26:52):
Wow,
Rocki Howard (26:53):
wow, wow. Some people are really energized and
empowered by the challenges thatnavigating the world being
underrepresented presents, andsome people are exhausted and
emotionally taxed. Where do yousit on that continuum? What's
(27:13):
been the impact on youpersonally,
Bob Athwal (27:18):
I think I've spent my career I would say, I don't
think you could argue anyone whoknows me will say I've spent my
career trying to help students,you know, and graduates, really,
I've really fought that battlefor a long time about, you know,
getting rid of your GPAs, youknow, looking at the
institutions, you know, why isthe Ivy League, the most coveted
type. And I've done a reallygood job, and I've convinced
(27:41):
others to come on that journey.
He, I think the reflection forme, again, goes back to George
Floyd, if I'm honest, you know,had I become complicit in this
environment, this corporateenvironment where, even though I
understood the rules of thegame, I didn't call in or call
out certain things. And I haveworked for some senior people
now and beat around those CDrooms, as, as many of us have,
(28:03):
and, you know, I'm sure you'llrecognize where you do wonder
where some of these people havecome from. And the and you do
wonder what goes on in theirminds, and their thoughts and
how detached they are from anumber of things and an almost a
bit of a sort of self belief,right, that they they know, the
answers weren't really there.
(28:24):
And, and I think what's happenedsince, unfortunately, the murder
and tragic death of George Floydis for me to ask myself, every
time I've been in those seniorpositions, every time I've been,
you know, able to engage withpeople that are at sweezey level
or had access to seniorprofessors in universities, what
did I do to really help themunderstand that it wasn't good
(28:50):
enough that I was the only onein that room. It wasn't good
enough that we weren't doingenough for others like me to
come through, and why weren't weand what was going on? And I
think that's been the realshift. I think now, you know,
I'm a lot more vocal aboutstuff, vocal in a way that you
can't argue. So you know, I'vegot good manners, I swear a lot,
but I've got really goodmanners. So, you know, I do my
(29:14):
best to be as polite, albeit,quite challenging for people
because I just say, it's goingto be uncomfortable. Like, we've
got to have this conversation.
And we're a snapshot in history.
And that's the other bit peoplehave to understand these. Were,
this is a snapshot in history.
We're paying for our sins of ourforefathers and mothers, whoever
they may be what they've done,and I'm talking about the
history, the colonization andeverything else. And and what we
(29:36):
need to do is Yeah, we're notsaying that, you know, you had
something to do with it. Butwhat we're saying is, you have
everything to do with it interms of fixing it now. And
making sure we never go back andwe reset that dial because all
the issues around the world. Itstems from our history.
Rocki Howard (29:58):
Absolutely does
Bob Athwal (29:59):
and So I've managed eyes by say, Well, actually,
whilst I'm still in thisposition and working and
continue to do so then I'm justgoing to be a big voice in terms
of trying to do the right thingby making sure we don't go back
to being complicit and justaccepting, because that's no
longer the case. I don't want mykids growing up in a world where
they have to do that andcompromise. And nor should they.
(30:23):
And that's where I'm at.
Rocki Howard (30:25):
Wow, I can't believe we're almost at the end
of our time, because you and Icould probably talk for hours.
So I've got I've got two finalquestions for you. One is, I'd
love for you to give one pieceof advice. Like if, if an ally
is listening today. And youcould say to them, here's the
one thing that you can startdoing today to support people of
(30:51):
color in the workplace, firstgeneration people in the
workplace, what would that onepiece of advice be?
Bob Athwal (30:59):
truly understand the lived experience for some of us
and why that means it'simportant to become anti racist.
Understand what that termactually means. And what we're
asking for.
Rocki Howard (31:10):
Cool. So close me out, you know, you know that
this is a platform to give avoice to people who are
underrepresented, you know, andthis is your time, I'd really
like for you to help peopleunderstand what it feels like,
when you are walking through theworld, the world of work as a
(31:31):
first generation person ofcolor.
Bob Athwal (31:36):
Yeah, I think, recognize what you bring,
recognize the diversity ofthought, as well as the optical
diversity, you bring all thegender diversity, you bring the
sexual orientation diversity,you bring whatever
characteristic, you bring thatfirst generation piece, the
intersectionality of it isacross so much, so don't forget
(31:57):
what you're adding, in terms ofconversation. And the way I
describe it to people now again,is, is classic, do not allow
organizations to dupe you intothinking groupthink is the only
way I the same old people fromthe same old places having the
same old conversations. And ifyou do want any evidence, then
(32:20):
just read the unfortunate SpaceShuttle Challenger disaster
where those engineers at NASAcould not solve the problem
because they were suffering fromgroup thing. So that would be my
sort of piece is just know whatyou bring to the party and be
proud of it.
Rocki Howard (32:35):
And be proud of it. You don't have to be
perfect, just be proud. I'm soexcited to have had you today
sharing your wisdom and yourperspective with us.
Unknown (32:45):
Thank you so
Rocki Howard (32:47):
so very much. And thank you for being a voice of
diversity.
Bob Athwal (32:52):
Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard (32:55):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(33:16):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(33:36):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
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