February 8, 2021 • 35 mins
I'm Rocki Howard and I'm not only your host, but I am proud to be Chief Diversity Officer at SmartRecruiters.
In honor of Black History Month, this is the second episode of our four-part Black Leadership Series sponsored by SmartRecruiters. Today’s guest is my colleague, my friend Brandice Sills-Payne.
Brandice Sills-Payne is SmartRecruiters' Customer Market Manager.
Brandice has a Bachelor's Degree in Music from Loyola University New Orleans and she brings her creative and smooth jazz background into Corporate America and to this podcast as a masterful storyteller.
In this episode, Brandice tells her story of feeling like the lone soldier, the importance of intersectionality and allyship, and shares powerful examples of the "tax" she has paid for being a black queer woman in the workplace.
To quote Brandice "at the end of the day, no matter who you are, you want to be seen and you want to be heard". Today, we will see and hear Brandice as a Voice of Black Leadership.
Our Sponsor
Connect with Us
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rocki Howard (00:15):
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, Iidentify as she/her/black/C
ristian/GenX/wife/mom. Thesattributes are dimensions of m
diversity of who I am. Theyare part of my unique value prop
(00:37):
sition and how I add value to te world. And I believe it is t
me for the world to hear thetories of people like me, thos
who are underrepresented in crporate America. The miss
on of this podcast is to humaize diversity, one story, one
onversation at a time to sharthe impact on those who iden
(01:00):
ify as being underepresented as they go thro
gh life in corporate Amerca. I hope you will listen to t
is episode with open hearts andpen minds. As today's gues
s tell their story. They arevoice of diversity. Febr
(01:23):
ary in certain parts of the globis known as Black History Mont
. In acknowledgment celeration, and in partnership with
our sponsor smart recriters. We will be hosting a seri
s of chats with just a few of sart recruiters best and brig
test black leaders. If you areot familiar, smart recr
iters is leading the modern talet acquisition suite market and
(01:46):
am so proud to be smart recriters Chief Diversity Offi
er ready to replace your oldchool ATMs and help your orga
ization achieve hiring succss. Then check us out at smar
recruiters.com This is the secod episode of our four part seri
s. And today's guest is my newriend and colleague Brandice Sil
(02:09):
s-Payne. Brandice Sills-Payneis SmartRecruiters Customer
arket Manager. She has aachelor's degree in music from
oyola University, and Brandicebrings her creative and smooth
jazz background to corporateamerica and to this podcast as a
masterful storyteller. In thisepisode, Brandice tells her stor
(02:30):
of feeling like the lonsoldier. She emphasizes th
importance of intersectionalitand ally ship, and she share
powerful examples of attacshe's paid for being a blac
queer woman in the workplace. Tquote brand is at the end of th
day, no matter who you are, yowant to be seen, and you want t
(02:51):
be heard. Today, we will heabranded sales pain as the voic
of black leadership. Well, goomorning, good afternoon. Goo
evening, wherever you are in thworld, and welcome to the voice
of diversity podcast of all othe ones that I am recordin
(03:14):
this month. I've really lookeforward to this. Because Brandi
e and I have had the opportuniy to really get to know each oth
r from day one. And we've becomea little bit of partners in cri
e actually, she's responsible fr keeping me in line most days.
o I'm excited to have a differet kind of conversation through t
(03:35):
e podcast with you today. So we'e gonna just do me a favo
, introduce yourself to te audienc
Brandice Sills-Payne (03:40):
Yeah, I'm Brandice. I run custome
marketing at smart recruiters.
identify as she her queeChristian wife, old soul
Rocki Howard (03:53):
Ah, the old soul.
I knew it. I think old soulsrecognize old souls, right?
Unknown (04:02):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Rocki Howard (04:03):
You know, look, let's let's unpack that a bit,
right. Because I'm going to I'mgoing to start with one
question. I'm going to go toanother place. There's lots of
conversations right now on howto categorize people, right and
how we identify. And so you hearall of these things about epic
(04:26):
Boehm bipoc underrepresentedminority, like how do we and and
you know what, in everysituation, we can always ask
people individually, how do youpersonally identify? So I'd love
to have your thoughts on doesone of those category shins
(04:46):
work? Do one of them resonatewith you? What do you think is
the answer to all of this?
Brandice Sills-Payne (04:53):
Um, I think I have to preface this by
saying I have been running awayfrom labels my entire life.
Because I feel like the minuteyou put yourself in a category,
people then decide who you are.
And, you know, when you talkabout diversity, it becomes a
sort of necessary evil as apath, you know, towards progress
(05:15):
or towards opportunity. But evenall the things I just mentioned
as, like how I identify, I wouldhave never said that five years
ago. But now I've found my ownkind of healing and path and
like who I am, and I can embraceit in a completely different
way. Which kind of gives me asense of self identity that
feels right for me. But when itcomes to large categorizations
(05:39):
of people, I think we have to becareful. And I know that it's
not going away, because it's theway that we can process
especially, you know, in theworkplace, in corporate and just
kind of how we view people andhow we say like, you know, this,
this group needs to have thisresource because of x, because
we've defined them as x. So Idon't know, I think it's a I
(06:03):
think it's a tricky situation.
But I think you have to, youhave to be careful, you have to
be honest about what your owntake is on how other people have
categorized other people, andhow that makes you interact with
them.
Rocki Howard (06:20):
I did think that I love what you said about I've
been running from labels all mylife, because once you put a
label, there's something thatcomes with that, right? And I
also think we want to make itsimple this person is black,
this person is queer, thisperson is this person is she,
(06:40):
and who's to say one is moreimportant than other when it
comes to my identity and how Iidentify right? And so I'm
curious you, you mentionedseveral things when you talk
about the dimensions of yourdiversity, and that you wouldn't
have said that five years ago.
It's complex enough to be awoman, it's complex enough to be
(07:02):
black, it's complex enough to bequeer, any of those things
independently have their ownimplications. I'm curious about
how much more complex Do youthink it is, when you walk
through the world with multipledimensions of diversity, and
maybe you'll share a little bitabout how you got comfortable
with how you identify? Yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne (07:27):
mean, intersectionality, I think is
the part of diversity that needsto be looked at the most.
Because it isn't any one thingand it's, it's, it's not
something I think that we candeduce and quantified down to a
single, you have no idea or asingle definition. And so, five
(07:50):
years from now, leading up tonow, I really started to think
about, you know, we talked aboutcode switching allow, just bring
this in really quick, we talkabout code switching. And so, in
some places, you know, I'm in areally comfortable space around
a bunch of other queer people,like, I'm queer first, right?
And, and, and that's my, that'smy switch. In that moment, I'm
(08:10):
around a boy, you know, myfamily, or you know, a lot of a
lot of black friends, you know,like, like, that part comes out
to the forefront. But when youhave to mix all of that
together, especially when you'rearound people who don't look
like you, then it becomes alittle bit more complicated. And
that that's like the nut tocrack. Right? intersectionality
(08:32):
is like the thing that needslike the most visibility, the
most attention, the mostconversation, because we aren't
any one thing. And so I thinkthat just however you walk
through your life, for me,personally, I didn't want
(08:53):
especially working in, you know,more prominent white spaces. I
didn't want anyone to see me asany one thing. And so I was just
a blank slate. And I realizedthat I was also saying, like, I
feel like no one knows who I am.
Or I feel like no one reallygets, you know, like these other
parts of me because I'm notrepresenting the metal. All
(09:13):
right, I'm showing up as, youknow, a plain piece of bread.
Rocki Howard (09:20):
Not just
Brandice Sills-Payne (09:23):
plain old.
I'm trying to fit in, you know,and trying and trying not to
alarm people and trying to bedisarming and trying to make
sure that I'm welcoming spacesbecause there's no friction
like, like, if you're if you'rearound branded, like
everything's gonna be cool. Andthen I realized I was just
completely losing myself inthat. And so now I'm like I am
(09:44):
all of these things make up whoI am. And while I want people to
understand all the dimensions ofjust me personally, you know,
depending on who you are in mylife and also other people
There's just so much value inknowing who you are, you know,
not saying that there's a lot ofsafety in presenting who you are
(10:06):
all the time. But knowing it foryourself, you can show up
differently. And you know, putsome peanut butter on the bread.
Rocki Howard (10:16):
Girl, please, maybe even a little jelly one
day, who knows? Right? You know,and, and, and there's a lot to
say for that, like, I feel theweight not only from you, but I
feel that way of having to comeinto a workplace and be
disarming, right? So that Idon't rattle the cage, etc. And
(10:40):
then to your point, then you'refrustrated because people don't
know you and, and there's thisenergy you spend,
subconsciously, about navigatingyour career while you're
navigating how you show up. Sotalk to us a little bit about
your career, tell us what you dofor a living. But but help us
understand how you got here.
What was the path?
Brandice Sills-Payne (11:03):
Yeah, well, let me also say that if
you go in and you rattle thecage, then they'll start to pick
up parts of you that are thereason why it's because she's
black. It's because she's awoman. It's because, you know,
so that that that just furthercomplicates things as well. And
it
Rocki Howard (11:17):
and then it, it becomes that confirmation bias,
right? This is whereconfirmation comes, bias comes
in. Oh, because she did this.
She did that because she's awoman. Oh, she is this
aggressive because she's anangry black woman. I always knew
that. And then whenever you showup, it confirms a pre existing
bias. And this is what those ofus who are underrepresented
(11:40):
feared the most in kind ofopening up instead of just
saying this was based on thissituation, or this is who I am
as a person, it becomes part ofa larger bias. And then it
exasperates right. Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne (11:56):
yeah, I mean, people of color have been
erasing themselves in spacessince the beginning of however
long we can talk about this.
Right. It's time out for thatnow. Because there's real
consequences around, you know,how we interact with people to a
certain degree
Rocki Howard (12:10):
there is.
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:12):
And and that's something that's really
encouraging about this time,right, is that we can have these
conversations and people are,are curious and wanting to, to
know and change and haveconversations and create spaces
that you know, that don'treflect our past to a certain
degree. Yeah.
Rocki Howard (12:29):
For real. Talk to us. How'd you get where you are?
Talk to us about Japan.
Unknown (12:35):
It's a curve, but it's curves and stair steps and all
kinds of things, right?
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:41):
It's underground through the water
was the grandmother's house we
Unknown (12:48):
got to was smart recruiters. Right. So great.
Forget where I land. Yeah.
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:53):
Yeah, so I'm actually started my
background in I wanted to be anaudio engineer out of college,
and I was a musician growing up.
And so I immediately, you know,went to school in New Orleans
and went to Loyola went back toAtlanta. And I started working
in recording studios, I wasreally lucky that I had a really
good network of people. And soworking with some really
(13:14):
prominent spaces with somereally big artists, and that was
like, I've arrived, I'm like,22, like,
Rocki Howard (13:22):
this is feeling it.
Brandice Sills-Payne (13:24):
Yeah, I'm like, this is it, this is this
is gonna be the thing. And thenI quickly realized, it's a very
cutthroat business, and you'reprobably not going to make any
money for a really long time.
And so I went into corporate,and a lot of people just didn't
understand why they were like,you know, you're on, you're on
tour, or you're doing all thesecool things, like, you know,
you're traveling, and I waslike, it's just not sustainable.
And so my mind went to, youknow, looking 10 years from now,
(13:48):
15 years from now, like, I needto build other skills that I can
mark it. But it was a greatstepping stone. And so I
literally took at like 20 for alittle bit took an entry level
job at a at a corporate audiovisual company, working actually
out of the CNN Center inAtlanta. And just soaked up all
(14:10):
I could. And from there I was,you know, becoming a pretty
prominent, like event producer,doing corporate events, you
know, done the Superbowl acouple times, like just kind of
moving more toward moving moretoward just kind of lead
production roles and seeingother mentors and people and
(14:31):
being like, okay, that personisn't sweating. And so I need to
figure out what their job is anddo that. And so a lot of it was
just, just just seeing examplesand just kind of striving toward
that. And eventually, I mean,that that brought me to LA and
to the to the startupenvironment and working. You
know, in I mean, just literallyanything you could imagine I
(14:55):
mean events for 5000 people, youknow, running doing podcasting
like this Any sort of eventproduction that you could think
of, I've probably done ittheater, I used to tour with a
magician, like, any way that Ican get in front of a production
I was I was going to do it andbuild skills. And then I was
like, this is alsounsustainable.
Rocki Howard (15:18):
And again, you're having tons of fun, you just
slip in things like, Oh, I didthe Super Bowl, you know, like,
you just slip in those thosethose events. But to your point,
you do get to a point whereyou're like, is this
sustainable? Right, so thenthat's just another pivot. So
tell us about that pivot. Yeah,I
Brandice Sills-Payne (15:35):
mean, that that pivot went into, and this
was working around a lot oflike, angel investors, and VC
people, and, you know, startupfounders, and kind of seeing the
way that they, they thoughtabout, you know, building equity
building businesses, like justthings that would carry them
through. And I know, you know,most startups fail, right? I've
(15:57):
seen it firsthand. But I wasjust like, Okay, what can I What
can I learn to do that, like,that works within this
ecosystem, it's also there's alot of money in Silicon Valley.
And, and that brought me to, tomarketing. And I was like, you
know, there's a story to tell,for each one of these, these
(16:19):
companies, there's a story totell for each one of these
people. And I'm a really goodstoryteller. And I always loved
writing. And I always love, youknow, just kind of presenting
the full picture. And havingpeople understand it in a way
that wasn't like, you know,snake oil. And, and, you know,
all of
Rocki Howard (16:35):
those are seals.
Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne (16:38):
yeah.
Yeah. Like staying away fromthat, like the plague. Um, and
so, I'm skipping over a lot. ButI ended up moving to San
Francisco and working for one ofthe largest LGBTQ professional
productions or conferences inthe world, and like, the whole
ecosystem was just connectingpeople to jobs, connecting
(16:59):
diverse people to jobs,connecting queer people to tech
jobs. And I was just really,really fulfilled in that work.
And that kind of brought me intolike, the HR tech space, you
know, working with companieslike Google and Nike, and
Spotify, and like, like workingwith their recruiters and their
ta teams, to find diversetalent. It just kind of opened
my eyes to a whole new world.
(17:23):
And like, I was, I felt like thelone soldier along this road for
so long. And now I'm like,surrounded by people who are
also like, their own lonesoldiers and their own, you
know, ecosystems andenvironments. But, you know, we
can make a difference here. Andthat was, I don't know, 567.
(17:45):
That was a while ago. And, andyeah, and that that just kind of
kept me in HR tech. And, youknow, I worked for another
startup. And, you know, that wasreally fulfilling. And, you
know, finally, Alison, assmartrecruiters found me at the
HR tech conference, at a partynonetheless, looks like you'd
(18:05):
have to come work as
Rocki Howard (18:06):
part you don't.
We're not doing a lot of itright now. But we like a good
party. Right.
Brandice Sills-Payne (18:14):
Right.
Yeah. And so now I'm here. And,you know, still the same
mission?
Rocki Howard (18:20):
Yeah. It it's interesting that you say I felt
like the lone soldier because somany times I think we are the
one or the only. And so I'd loveto hear from your point of view
and your career path has beenfascinating. So you've been in a
(18:40):
lot of spaces, and I'm sure hada lot of experiences, right? Can
you tell us about potentiallysome of the challenges you had
in making it to where you aretoday that you think are
directly correlated back tobeing a woman or being queer, or
(19:02):
being black? And thosedimensions are diverse? Like how
did they impact your road?
Brandice Sills-Payne (19:08):
Yeah, the first time I came up against
someone interacting with me in acertain way, because I was I
think it was a combination ofbeing a black man, a woman and I
look like I'm 10 years old.
Rocki Howard (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne (19:22):
was I was I was actually I showed up to
Super Bowls in Miami was 2000 Idon't know the one Princeton
2007 2005. And, and I show upand I'm one of them, the
Production Director. So like oneof the main stages and in that
environment, you know, you havea union crew motion your crews
(19:43):
are either they're all white, orlike, you know, they're peppered
with some people of color, butthey're mostly mostly
predominantly white. And I showup and the foreman for the union
was like you're late. You know,like, you need to get with your
group like what you know, likewe don't this is not how we
behave. What We're on a gig thissize and, and just going off on
(20:03):
me. And I'm looking at him like,this is actually happening, like
you have no idea who I am. Andwhen you're in those
environments, no one's dressedup, like everyone is like shorts
and a T shirt and like it's hotoutside, you know? And I looked
at him and I said, Who do youwork for? Like, who are you? I'm
(20:25):
the foreman for the union, youknow, and I want to make sure
you get assigned to the rightspot, because we need to get to
work. And I said, Well, I'm theProduction Director for your
entire crew. I just say psycheseyes get all big. And he's like,
first he didn't believe me. Andbecause I hadn't put my badge on
yet, either. And just assumingthat like this little black girl
(20:46):
from wherever she just rolled upfrom, could not be in charge,
there's no way I
Rocki Howard (20:51):
would have never occurred to him, like that just
never crossed his mind.
Brandice Sills-Payne (20:56):
never crossed his mind. Yeah. I had a
little fun with it. But it madefor a very awkward conversation.
And eventually, he came back andhe apologized it and the only
reason I think he apologized, Idon't think he was genuinely
sorry. I think that he wanted tomake sure his job wasn't a job.
(21:17):
So totally just selfpreservation. And so that opened
my eyes, because before, like Itold you, like I was just trying
to show up, I was just trying toshow up, you know, I was really
good at my job and just kind ofjust, you know, come in and be
the best that I am and just domy work. And then I was like,
oh, like, I'm gonna have to comeup against this, especially when
(21:37):
you start to do bigger andbigger and bigger things. You
know, I'm an entry level job,nobody cares. Yeah, if I'm in my
place, and an entry level job,
Rocki Howard (21:47):
if you're in your place, and and that has a hope
we could do a whole, maybe we'llcome back and do an episode
about what being in your placemeans because especially when
you're a person of color, whenyou're a woman, you feel that
you understand that, in otherpeople's minds, there is a place
for you, there's a box for you.
And that that can be that can betough, we'll just say that.
Brandice Sills-Payne (22:15):
It can be tough, and it can also be
dangerous.
Rocki Howard (22:17):
It is dangerous.
And a lot of connotations tothat. I can imagine that I used
to deem that the flicker forpeople who would talk to me on
the phone and make assumptionsbecause I talk like a white
girl, because I speak correctgrammatical English, and then
would show up to meet with me orinterview with me and people
(22:38):
would not be so bold enough togo, you know, let the draw draw,
but you would see the response.
And I used to call that theflicker, for those of us who
have been around before socialmedia, where you can see who
everybody is before you talk tothem, because it never would
have occurred that the voicethat they heard matched up to
(22:59):
your point with this littleblack girl, right? Mm hmm.
Brandice Sills-Payne (23:02):
Yeah, exactly. And the second time
that it was, I mean, there'sbeen so many stories, but the
second time that it that itreally affected me, and I was
like, This isn't fair, is youknow, as a black woman, you have
to be a superhero. to even beseen as just doing the basic
(23:25):
average, when you're doing somuch more. You know, and I'm at
a place where, you know,revenues of spending is down,
you know, budgets are beingmanaged. A war awards are being
given out, you know, andhonestly, I'm just gonna say it
like, a lot of it dudes due tothe work that I was doing. And
(23:46):
when it came time to get apromotion, my boss said, Oh, we
don't have there's no budget forpromotions this year. No one's
getting a promotion. likeeveryone's just getting their
regular merit increase. And heand I were both at the director
level, we were running thisplace. And, you know, I'm like,
I see I see the good in people.
I'm like, there's you know,okay, great. Like, that must be
the case. Oh,
Rocki Howard (24:08):
no problem. I'm a team player.
Brandice Sills-Payne (24:11):
Yeah, okay, fine. Not that's not the
case. I got a 3% merit increase.
He got a 15% increase. Andbasically, just like, the boys
club, like, just it was all justkind of funneled to him and
shortly quit after that. There'snowhere for me to go.
Rocki Howard (24:38):
There's nowhere for you to go from a career
perspective. But how do yourecover from that? Like, how do
you have trust in an environmentwhere they lie to you? And where
there's obviously equity issues,like how is there a way to
recover from that?
Brandice Sills-Payn (24:53):
Personally, I mean, I got lucky I became the
VP of selection selected anothercompany after that which was
successful.
Rocki Howard (25:00):
It's always the best revenge.
Brandice Sills-Payne (25:04):
I started making double the money. Um,
Rocki Howard (25:06):
but within those environments, I think the the
question I'm asking is forpeople who want to be good
allies, and they see thesesituations happen within their
own workplace, when somethinglike that that is so blatant
happens, is there a way to,quote unquote, fix it can that
(25:30):
can can you really ever recoverwhen you're on the other side of
that?
Brandice Sills-Payne (25:38):
I mean, if you don't, if you, if you
quickly find out that you don'treally have power in a
situation, then you in myopinion, you have to take care
of yourself. You know, you canbring all the bills, you can say
all the things, but if the handsin the pot, and people pulling
the strings are also the onesthat are screwing you over, you
know, you have to know when it'sbest for you to leave, if that's
(26:00):
possible, and everyone is not inthat situation. And it's not
possible for everyone. And it'stough and and, and that's one of
the hardest things about, youknow, being a person of color in
the workplace is sometimes youroptions are just not there. And
your your personal life and thethings that you need to sustain
take precedent over, you know,self preservation, you know,
Unknown (26:24):
it's nice to have a roof over your head in it.
Brandice Sills-Payne (26:26):
It's nice to be able to eat, it's nice.
It's cold out here that heats onlike, you know, and
Rocki Howard (26:35):
those are the choices that people have to make
sometimes. Right, they have toput aside their highest need for
basic needs. Yeah, it'simportant for people to hear
that.
Brandice Sills-Payne (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, there's a spectrum, right,
like, I'm specifically talkingabout corporate America where
like, you know, there, there isa level of privilege in that,
like, whatever your salary is,or, you know, I'm not, I'm not,
you know, there's, there's aspectrum, but, but there, I've
just heard so many stories, thatpeople just having to suck it
up. Yeah. You know, and, and,and the, the kind of, not
(27:13):
everyone's having to do that.
Right. Like, my whitecounterpart over here is not
having to, like sit in mostcases in this situation. And
say, like, like, should I saysomething? Like, if I say
something like, Am I gonna, youknow, because that space, that
that, that that level ofraising? My voice isn't for me,
I should just be happy to behere. Yeah. And, and not wanting
(27:34):
to rock the boat.
Rocki Howard (27:39):
Wow. Let I want to, I want to tap into that.
Because that's it's a reallygood question. When I think
about in that story that youjust shared with us. I would bet
that that person who was appearto you, when they were having
conversations with you wouldhave absolutely said, I'm an
ally, I'm down, I don't seecolor, you know, this is my
(28:05):
partner, etc. But when it camedown to it didn't really take
the opportunity to say, No, thisisn't fair. If you've got 15%
Brandis and I were in ittogether, this should be half
and half. So I'd like to askyou, for people who really want
(28:25):
to be allies. What advice wouldyou give?
Brandice Sills-Payne (28:31):
You know, with the Black Lives Matter
movement, I think that a lot ofa lot of people have realized
that. As a person of color. Thiswasn't this is an issue of the
heart. Right? Like it's not ascut and dry as just corporate
policy and things like that.
Like you have to change people'shearts and minds. And I think
the biggest thing that came outfor me was hearing other white
(28:53):
people say, like, we createdthis problem, and we can fix it.
And, and we and we have likethere's nothing for me to do, to
a certain extent, right? Like,get together and figure this
out. But to be an ally, likethose less, you have to raise
(29:14):
your voice. Like, if you havethe power and the privilege, you
have to use it. If you say youcare, because it's coming to me
and saying oh man, like that wasreally like this,
Unknown (29:31):
fellas bow in the corner.
Brandice Sills-Payne (29:33):
Yeah, the lunch room, right? No, I mean,
raise your voice in those spaceswhere where you have influence
and use your influence and useyour power. And at the end of
the day, like you're probablygoing to be okay. In my
experience, the people I knowthat have said like, Hey, we
need to change this. They'vemade it out. Okay, and they and
(29:57):
they've made they've made adifference, right. And that's
the way to do it. Also havethose conversations in the
lunchroom, you know, becausepeople need to know that people
care and they see you and they,they understand that like, you
know, things need to change. Butwhen you're sitting in those
rooms with the people who whotheir eyes are not open, you
know, there has to be a voice inthe room. And it's a lot more
(30:20):
effective when the voice lookslike them.
Rocki Howard (30:23):
Appreciate that. I can't believe we're almost just
about 30 minutes in. So, youknow, here's always the last
question on this, this podcast,and I want you to take us out
here. Our platform is aboutgiving a voice to individuals
who are underrepresented, right?
That's, that's our mission here.
(30:43):
So as a voice for theunderrepresented today, what
would you like to say to peopleof what it's like to go through
corporate America as a personwho's underrepresented?
Brandice Sills-Payne (31:00):
I mean, it can be a lonely road. But what's
nice now is there there areplaces of support, like you have
to have support, you have tohave somebody out there that you
can talk to. And, you know, alot of people are talking to
right now and feeling like likementorship is not a thing
anymore. And, you know, we'vealways done this, since the
(31:24):
beginning of time is rallyaround each other and spin and,
and find support around peoplewho who are going through what
you're going through. I thinkthat, that that's really
important. My experience hasbeen the opposite of that, you
know, I've kind of traverse thisroad alone. And, you know, by
the grace of God wouldn't havebeen strong enough and resilient
(31:45):
enough to continue to makeprogress. But as an
underrepresented person. I mean,if I'm being honest, like, it's
just hard. It's just really,really hard. It's exhausting. It
is infinitely taxing, you know,in so many different ways. And I
(32:06):
don't think people reallyunderstand that, because we're
so good at showing up and makingit look easy. And it is not
easy. And I think, you know,naming that, and visibility
around that is so important.
Because at the end of the day,you know, no matter who you are,
you want to be seen, and youwant to be heard. And we don't
(32:27):
want to sit around and crytogether and you know,
businesses business,
Rocki Howard (32:31):
I don't want to sing Kumbaya.
Unknown (32:37):
Maybe just,
Brandice Sills-Payne (32:40):
you know, but people everybody wants to be
seen, and everybody wants to beheard. And, for me, if, if if
someone had just like said like,it wasn't just me seeing it,
like if I have some validationthat like, like you're doing a
really hard thing. You know,talk about mental health a lot.
It's really, really important.
And it really, really affectspeople. And if you're in a space
(33:01):
and you think that, that someoneyou see a person of color, and
you see that they're the onlyface in the room, then our
allies need to know that there'sso much more to that story than
what we're then what we're whatwe think it is or what we what
we imagine it is for thatperson. And we need to see that
we need to acknowledge that. Ilove that.
Rocki Howard (33:25):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for what you do. Thankyou for who you are. Thank you
for sharing this space with withwith us today. Thank you for
being a voice of blackleadership. I appreciate you.
Brandice Sills-Payne (33:39):
Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard (33:41):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(34:03):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(34:23):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm
your host Rocki. Howard, Iidentify as she/her/black/C
ristian/GenX/wife/mom. Thesattributes are dimensions of m
diversity of who I am. Theyare part of my unique value prop
(00:37):
sition and how I add value to te world. And I believe it is t
me for the world to hear thetories of people like me, thos
who are underrepresented in crporate America. The miss
on of this podcast is to humaize diversity, one story, one
onversation at a time to sharthe impact on those who iden
(01:00):
ify as being underepresented as they go thro
gh life in corporate Amerca. I hope you will listen to t
is episode with open hearts andpen minds. As today's gues
s tell their story. They arevoice of diversity. Febr
(01:23):
ary in certain parts of the globis known as Black History Mont
. In acknowledgment celeration, and in partnership with
our sponsor smart recriters. We will be hosting a seri
s of chats with just a few of sart recruiters best and brig
test black leaders. If you areot familiar, smart recr
iters is leading the modern talet acquisition suite market and
(01:46):
am so proud to be smart recriters Chief Diversity Offi
er ready to replace your oldchool ATMs and help your orga
ization achieve hiring succss. Then check us out at smar
recruiters.com This is the secod episode of our four part seri
s. And today's guest is my newriend and colleague Brandice Sil
(02:09):
s-Payne. Brandice Sills-Payneis SmartRecruiters Customer
arket Manager. She has aachelor's degree in music from
oyola University, and Brandicebrings her creative and smooth
jazz background to corporateamerica and to this podcast as a
masterful storyteller. In thisepisode, Brandice tells her stor
(02:30):
of feeling like the lonsoldier. She emphasizes th
importance of intersectionalitand ally ship, and she share
powerful examples of attacshe's paid for being a blac
queer woman in the workplace. Tquote brand is at the end of th
day, no matter who you are, yowant to be seen, and you want t
(02:51):
be heard. Today, we will heabranded sales pain as the voic
of black leadership. Well, goomorning, good afternoon. Goo
evening, wherever you are in thworld, and welcome to the voice
of diversity podcast of all othe ones that I am recordin
(03:14):
this month. I've really lookeforward to this. Because Brandi
e and I have had the opportuniy to really get to know each oth
r from day one. And we've becomea little bit of partners in cri
e actually, she's responsible fr keeping me in line most days.
o I'm excited to have a differet kind of conversation through t
(03:35):
e podcast with you today. So we'e gonna just do me a favo
, introduce yourself to te audienc
Brandice Sills-Payne (03:40):
Yeah, I'm Brandice. I run custome
marketing at smart recruiters.
identify as she her queeChristian wife, old soul
Rocki Howard (03:53):
Ah, the old soul.
I knew it. I think old soulsrecognize old souls, right?
Unknown (04:02):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Rocki Howard (04:03):
You know, look, let's let's unpack that a bit,
right. Because I'm going to I'mgoing to start with one
question. I'm going to go toanother place. There's lots of
conversations right now on howto categorize people, right and
how we identify. And so you hearall of these things about epic
(04:26):
Boehm bipoc underrepresentedminority, like how do we and and
you know what, in everysituation, we can always ask
people individually, how do youpersonally identify? So I'd love
to have your thoughts on doesone of those category shins
(04:46):
work? Do one of them resonatewith you? What do you think is
the answer to all of this?
Brandice Sills-Payne (04:53):
Um, I think I have to preface this by
saying I have been running awayfrom labels my entire life.
Because I feel like the minuteyou put yourself in a category,
people then decide who you are.
And, you know, when you talkabout diversity, it becomes a
sort of necessary evil as apath, you know, towards progress
(05:15):
or towards opportunity. But evenall the things I just mentioned
as, like how I identify, I wouldhave never said that five years
ago. But now I've found my ownkind of healing and path and
like who I am, and I can embraceit in a completely different
way. Which kind of gives me asense of self identity that
feels right for me. But when itcomes to large categorizations
(05:39):
of people, I think we have to becareful. And I know that it's
not going away, because it's theway that we can process
especially, you know, in theworkplace, in corporate and just
kind of how we view people andhow we say like, you know, this,
this group needs to have thisresource because of x, because
we've defined them as x. So Idon't know, I think it's a I
(06:03):
think it's a tricky situation.
But I think you have to, youhave to be careful, you have to
be honest about what your owntake is on how other people have
categorized other people, andhow that makes you interact with
them.
Rocki Howard (06:20):
I did think that I love what you said about I've
been running from labels all mylife, because once you put a
label, there's something thatcomes with that, right? And I
also think we want to make itsimple this person is black,
this person is queer, thisperson is this person is she,
(06:40):
and who's to say one is moreimportant than other when it
comes to my identity and how Iidentify right? And so I'm
curious you, you mentionedseveral things when you talk
about the dimensions of yourdiversity, and that you wouldn't
have said that five years ago.
It's complex enough to be awoman, it's complex enough to be
(07:02):
black, it's complex enough to bequeer, any of those things
independently have their ownimplications. I'm curious about
how much more complex Do youthink it is, when you walk
through the world with multipledimensions of diversity, and
maybe you'll share a little bitabout how you got comfortable
with how you identify? Yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne (07:27):
mean, intersectionality, I think is
the part of diversity that needsto be looked at the most.
Because it isn't any one thingand it's, it's, it's not
something I think that we candeduce and quantified down to a
single, you have no idea or asingle definition. And so, five
(07:50):
years from now, leading up tonow, I really started to think
about, you know, we talked aboutcode switching allow, just bring
this in really quick, we talkabout code switching. And so, in
some places, you know, I'm in areally comfortable space around
a bunch of other queer people,like, I'm queer first, right?
And, and, and that's my, that'smy switch. In that moment, I'm
(08:10):
around a boy, you know, myfamily, or you know, a lot of a
lot of black friends, you know,like, like, that part comes out
to the forefront. But when youhave to mix all of that
together, especially when you'rearound people who don't look
like you, then it becomes alittle bit more complicated. And
that that's like the nut tocrack. Right? intersectionality
(08:32):
is like the thing that needslike the most visibility, the
most attention, the mostconversation, because we aren't
any one thing. And so I thinkthat just however you walk
through your life, for me,personally, I didn't want
(08:53):
especially working in, you know,more prominent white spaces. I
didn't want anyone to see me asany one thing. And so I was just
a blank slate. And I realizedthat I was also saying, like, I
feel like no one knows who I am.
Or I feel like no one reallygets, you know, like these other
parts of me because I'm notrepresenting the metal. All
(09:13):
right, I'm showing up as, youknow, a plain piece of bread.
Rocki Howard (09:20):
Not just
Brandice Sills-Payne (09:23):
plain old.
I'm trying to fit in, you know,and trying and trying not to
alarm people and trying to bedisarming and trying to make
sure that I'm welcoming spacesbecause there's no friction
like, like, if you're if you'rearound branded, like
everything's gonna be cool. Andthen I realized I was just
completely losing myself inthat. And so now I'm like I am
(09:44):
all of these things make up whoI am. And while I want people to
understand all the dimensions ofjust me personally, you know,
depending on who you are in mylife and also other people
There's just so much value inknowing who you are, you know,
not saying that there's a lot ofsafety in presenting who you are
(10:06):
all the time. But knowing it foryourself, you can show up
differently. And you know, putsome peanut butter on the bread.
Rocki Howard (10:16):
Girl, please, maybe even a little jelly one
day, who knows? Right? You know,and, and, and there's a lot to
say for that, like, I feel theweight not only from you, but I
feel that way of having to comeinto a workplace and be
disarming, right? So that Idon't rattle the cage, etc. And
(10:40):
then to your point, then you'refrustrated because people don't
know you and, and there's thisenergy you spend,
subconsciously, about navigatingyour career while you're
navigating how you show up. Sotalk to us a little bit about
your career, tell us what you dofor a living. But but help us
understand how you got here.
What was the path?
Brandice Sills-Payne (11:03):
Yeah, well, let me also say that if
you go in and you rattle thecage, then they'll start to pick
up parts of you that are thereason why it's because she's
black. It's because she's awoman. It's because, you know,
so that that that just furthercomplicates things as well. And
it
Rocki Howard (11:17):
and then it, it becomes that confirmation bias,
right? This is whereconfirmation comes, bias comes
in. Oh, because she did this.
She did that because she's awoman. Oh, she is this
aggressive because she's anangry black woman. I always knew
that. And then whenever you showup, it confirms a pre existing
bias. And this is what those ofus who are underrepresented
(11:40):
feared the most in kind ofopening up instead of just
saying this was based on thissituation, or this is who I am
as a person, it becomes part ofa larger bias. And then it
exasperates right. Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne (11:56):
yeah, I mean, people of color have been
erasing themselves in spacessince the beginning of however
long we can talk about this.
Right. It's time out for thatnow. Because there's real
consequences around, you know,how we interact with people to a
certain degree
Rocki Howard (12:10):
there is.
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:12):
And and that's something that's really
encouraging about this time,right, is that we can have these
conversations and people are,are curious and wanting to, to
know and change and haveconversations and create spaces
that you know, that don'treflect our past to a certain
degree. Yeah.
Rocki Howard (12:29):
For real. Talk to us. How'd you get where you are?
Talk to us about Japan.
Unknown (12:35):
It's a curve, but it's curves and stair steps and all
kinds of things, right?
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:41):
It's underground through the water
was the grandmother's house we
Unknown (12:48):
got to was smart recruiters. Right. So great.
Forget where I land. Yeah.
Brandice Sills-Payne (12:53):
Yeah, so I'm actually started my
background in I wanted to be anaudio engineer out of college,
and I was a musician growing up.
And so I immediately, you know,went to school in New Orleans
and went to Loyola went back toAtlanta. And I started working
in recording studios, I wasreally lucky that I had a really
good network of people. And soworking with some really
(13:14):
prominent spaces with somereally big artists, and that was
like, I've arrived, I'm like,22, like,
Rocki Howard (13:22):
this is feeling it.
Brandice Sills-Payne (13:24):
Yeah, I'm like, this is it, this is this
is gonna be the thing. And thenI quickly realized, it's a very
cutthroat business, and you'reprobably not going to make any
money for a really long time.
And so I went into corporate,and a lot of people just didn't
understand why they were like,you know, you're on, you're on
tour, or you're doing all thesecool things, like, you know,
you're traveling, and I waslike, it's just not sustainable.
And so my mind went to, youknow, looking 10 years from now,
(13:48):
15 years from now, like, I needto build other skills that I can
mark it. But it was a greatstepping stone. And so I
literally took at like 20 for alittle bit took an entry level
job at a at a corporate audiovisual company, working actually
out of the CNN Center inAtlanta. And just soaked up all
(14:10):
I could. And from there I was,you know, becoming a pretty
prominent, like event producer,doing corporate events, you
know, done the Superbowl acouple times, like just kind of
moving more toward moving moretoward just kind of lead
production roles and seeingother mentors and people and
(14:31):
being like, okay, that personisn't sweating. And so I need to
figure out what their job is anddo that. And so a lot of it was
just, just just seeing examplesand just kind of striving toward
that. And eventually, I mean,that that brought me to LA and
to the to the startupenvironment and working. You
know, in I mean, just literallyanything you could imagine I
(14:55):
mean events for 5000 people, youknow, running doing podcasting
like this Any sort of eventproduction that you could think
of, I've probably done ittheater, I used to tour with a
magician, like, any way that Ican get in front of a production
I was I was going to do it andbuild skills. And then I was
like, this is alsounsustainable.
Rocki Howard (15:18):
And again, you're having tons of fun, you just
slip in things like, Oh, I didthe Super Bowl, you know, like,
you just slip in those thosethose events. But to your point,
you do get to a point whereyou're like, is this
sustainable? Right, so thenthat's just another pivot. So
tell us about that pivot. Yeah,I
Brandice Sills-Payne (15:35):
mean, that that pivot went into, and this
was working around a lot oflike, angel investors, and VC
people, and, you know, startupfounders, and kind of seeing the
way that they, they thoughtabout, you know, building equity
building businesses, like justthings that would carry them
through. And I know, you know,most startups fail, right? I've
(15:57):
seen it firsthand. But I wasjust like, Okay, what can I What
can I learn to do that, like,that works within this
ecosystem, it's also there's alot of money in Silicon Valley.
And, and that brought me to, tomarketing. And I was like, you
know, there's a story to tell,for each one of these, these
(16:19):
companies, there's a story totell for each one of these
people. And I'm a really goodstoryteller. And I always loved
writing. And I always love, youknow, just kind of presenting
the full picture. And havingpeople understand it in a way
that wasn't like, you know,snake oil. And, and, you know,
all of
Rocki Howard (16:35):
those are seals.
Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne (16:38):
yeah.
Yeah. Like staying away fromthat, like the plague. Um, and
so, I'm skipping over a lot. ButI ended up moving to San
Francisco and working for one ofthe largest LGBTQ professional
productions or conferences inthe world, and like, the whole
ecosystem was just connectingpeople to jobs, connecting
(16:59):
diverse people to jobs,connecting queer people to tech
jobs. And I was just really,really fulfilled in that work.
And that kind of brought me intolike, the HR tech space, you
know, working with companieslike Google and Nike, and
Spotify, and like, like workingwith their recruiters and their
ta teams, to find diversetalent. It just kind of opened
my eyes to a whole new world.
(17:23):
And like, I was, I felt like thelone soldier along this road for
so long. And now I'm like,surrounded by people who are
also like, their own lonesoldiers and their own, you
know, ecosystems andenvironments. But, you know, we
can make a difference here. Andthat was, I don't know, 567.
(17:45):
That was a while ago. And, andyeah, and that that just kind of
kept me in HR tech. And, youknow, I worked for another
startup. And, you know, that wasreally fulfilling. And, you
know, finally, Alison, assmartrecruiters found me at the
HR tech conference, at a partynonetheless, looks like you'd
(18:05):
have to come work as
Rocki Howard (18:06):
part you don't.
We're not doing a lot of itright now. But we like a good
party. Right.
Brandice Sills-Payne (18:14):
Right.
Yeah. And so now I'm here. And,you know, still the same
mission?
Rocki Howard (18:20):
Yeah. It it's interesting that you say I felt
like the lone soldier because somany times I think we are the
one or the only. And so I'd loveto hear from your point of view
and your career path has beenfascinating. So you've been in a
(18:40):
lot of spaces, and I'm sure hada lot of experiences, right? Can
you tell us about potentiallysome of the challenges you had
in making it to where you aretoday that you think are
directly correlated back tobeing a woman or being queer, or
(19:02):
being black? And thosedimensions are diverse? Like how
did they impact your road?
Brandice Sills-Payne (19:08):
Yeah, the first time I came up against
someone interacting with me in acertain way, because I was I
think it was a combination ofbeing a black man, a woman and I
look like I'm 10 years old.
Rocki Howard (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne (19:22):
was I was I was actually I showed up to
Super Bowls in Miami was 2000 Idon't know the one Princeton
2007 2005. And, and I show upand I'm one of them, the
Production Director. So like oneof the main stages and in that
environment, you know, you havea union crew motion your crews
(19:43):
are either they're all white, orlike, you know, they're peppered
with some people of color, butthey're mostly mostly
predominantly white. And I showup and the foreman for the union
was like you're late. You know,like, you need to get with your
group like what you know, likewe don't this is not how we
behave. What We're on a gig thissize and, and just going off on
(20:03):
me. And I'm looking at him like,this is actually happening, like
you have no idea who I am. Andwhen you're in those
environments, no one's dressedup, like everyone is like shorts
and a T shirt and like it's hotoutside, you know? And I looked
at him and I said, Who do youwork for? Like, who are you? I'm
(20:25):
the foreman for the union, youknow, and I want to make sure
you get assigned to the rightspot, because we need to get to
work. And I said, Well, I'm theProduction Director for your
entire crew. I just say psycheseyes get all big. And he's like,
first he didn't believe me. Andbecause I hadn't put my badge on
yet, either. And just assumingthat like this little black girl
(20:46):
from wherever she just rolled upfrom, could not be in charge,
there's no way I
Rocki Howard (20:51):
would have never occurred to him, like that just
never crossed his mind.
Brandice Sills-Payne (20:56):
never crossed his mind. Yeah. I had a
little fun with it. But it madefor a very awkward conversation.
And eventually, he came back andhe apologized it and the only
reason I think he apologized, Idon't think he was genuinely
sorry. I think that he wanted tomake sure his job wasn't a job.
(21:17):
So totally just selfpreservation. And so that opened
my eyes, because before, like Itold you, like I was just trying
to show up, I was just trying toshow up, you know, I was really
good at my job and just kind ofjust, you know, come in and be
the best that I am and just domy work. And then I was like,
oh, like, I'm gonna have to comeup against this, especially when
(21:37):
you start to do bigger andbigger and bigger things. You
know, I'm an entry level job,nobody cares. Yeah, if I'm in my
place, and an entry level job,
Rocki Howard (21:47):
if you're in your place, and and that has a hope
we could do a whole, maybe we'llcome back and do an episode
about what being in your placemeans because especially when
you're a person of color, whenyou're a woman, you feel that
you understand that, in otherpeople's minds, there is a place
for you, there's a box for you.
And that that can be that can betough, we'll just say that.
Brandice Sills-Payne (22:15):
It can be tough, and it can also be
dangerous.
Rocki Howard (22:17):
It is dangerous.
And a lot of connotations tothat. I can imagine that I used
to deem that the flicker forpeople who would talk to me on
the phone and make assumptionsbecause I talk like a white
girl, because I speak correctgrammatical English, and then
would show up to meet with me orinterview with me and people
(22:38):
would not be so bold enough togo, you know, let the draw draw,
but you would see the response.
And I used to call that theflicker, for those of us who
have been around before socialmedia, where you can see who
everybody is before you talk tothem, because it never would
have occurred that the voicethat they heard matched up to
(22:59):
your point with this littleblack girl, right? Mm hmm.
Brandice Sills-Payne (23:02):
Yeah, exactly. And the second time
that it was, I mean, there'sbeen so many stories, but the
second time that it that itreally affected me, and I was
like, This isn't fair, is youknow, as a black woman, you have
to be a superhero. to even beseen as just doing the basic
(23:25):
average, when you're doing somuch more. You know, and I'm at
a place where, you know,revenues of spending is down,
you know, budgets are beingmanaged. A war awards are being
given out, you know, andhonestly, I'm just gonna say it
like, a lot of it dudes due tothe work that I was doing. And
(23:46):
when it came time to get apromotion, my boss said, Oh, we
don't have there's no budget forpromotions this year. No one's
getting a promotion. likeeveryone's just getting their
regular merit increase. And heand I were both at the director
level, we were running thisplace. And, you know, I'm like,
I see I see the good in people.
I'm like, there's you know,okay, great. Like, that must be
the case. Oh,
Rocki Howard (24:08):
no problem. I'm a team player.
Brandice Sills-Payne (24:11):
Yeah, okay, fine. Not that's not the
case. I got a 3% merit increase.
He got a 15% increase. Andbasically, just like, the boys
club, like, just it was all justkind of funneled to him and
shortly quit after that. There'snowhere for me to go.
Rocki Howard (24:38):
There's nowhere for you to go from a career
perspective. But how do yourecover from that? Like, how do
you have trust in an environmentwhere they lie to you? And where
there's obviously equity issues,like how is there a way to
recover from that?
Brandice Sills-Payn (24:53):
Personally, I mean, I got lucky I became the
VP of selection selected anothercompany after that which was
successful.
Rocki Howard (25:00):
It's always the best revenge.
Brandice Sills-Payne (25:04):
I started making double the money. Um,
Rocki Howard (25:06):
but within those environments, I think the the
question I'm asking is forpeople who want to be good
allies, and they see thesesituations happen within their
own workplace, when somethinglike that that is so blatant
happens, is there a way to,quote unquote, fix it can that
(25:30):
can can you really ever recoverwhen you're on the other side of
that?
Brandice Sills-Payne (25:38):
I mean, if you don't, if you, if you
quickly find out that you don'treally have power in a
situation, then you in myopinion, you have to take care
of yourself. You know, you canbring all the bills, you can say
all the things, but if the handsin the pot, and people pulling
the strings are also the onesthat are screwing you over, you
know, you have to know when it'sbest for you to leave, if that's
(26:00):
possible, and everyone is not inthat situation. And it's not
possible for everyone. And it'stough and and, and that's one of
the hardest things about, youknow, being a person of color in
the workplace is sometimes youroptions are just not there. And
your your personal life and thethings that you need to sustain
take precedent over, you know,self preservation, you know,
Unknown (26:24):
it's nice to have a roof over your head in it.
Brandice Sills-Payne (26:26):
It's nice to be able to eat, it's nice.
It's cold out here that heats onlike, you know, and
Rocki Howard (26:35):
those are the choices that people have to make
sometimes. Right, they have toput aside their highest need for
basic needs. Yeah, it'simportant for people to hear
that.
Brandice Sills-Payne (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, there's a spectrum, right,
like, I'm specifically talkingabout corporate America where
like, you know, there, there isa level of privilege in that,
like, whatever your salary is,or, you know, I'm not, I'm not,
you know, there's, there's aspectrum, but, but there, I've
just heard so many stories, thatpeople just having to suck it
up. Yeah. You know, and, and,and the, the kind of, not
(27:13):
everyone's having to do that.
Right. Like, my whitecounterpart over here is not
having to, like sit in mostcases in this situation. And
say, like, like, should I saysomething? Like, if I say
something like, Am I gonna, youknow, because that space, that
that, that that level ofraising? My voice isn't for me,
I should just be happy to behere. Yeah. And, and not wanting
(27:34):
to rock the boat.
Rocki Howard (27:39):
Wow. Let I want to, I want to tap into that.
Because that's it's a reallygood question. When I think
about in that story that youjust shared with us. I would bet
that that person who was appearto you, when they were having
conversations with you wouldhave absolutely said, I'm an
ally, I'm down, I don't seecolor, you know, this is my
(28:05):
partner, etc. But when it camedown to it didn't really take
the opportunity to say, No, thisisn't fair. If you've got 15%
Brandis and I were in ittogether, this should be half
and half. So I'd like to askyou, for people who really want
(28:25):
to be allies. What advice wouldyou give?
Brandice Sills-Payne (28:31):
You know, with the Black Lives Matter
movement, I think that a lot ofa lot of people have realized
that. As a person of color. Thiswasn't this is an issue of the
heart. Right? Like it's not ascut and dry as just corporate
policy and things like that.
Like you have to change people'shearts and minds. And I think
the biggest thing that came outfor me was hearing other white
(28:53):
people say, like, we createdthis problem, and we can fix it.
And, and we and we have likethere's nothing for me to do, to
a certain extent, right? Like,get together and figure this
out. But to be an ally, likethose less, you have to raise
(29:14):
your voice. Like, if you havethe power and the privilege, you
have to use it. If you say youcare, because it's coming to me
and saying oh man, like that wasreally like this,
Unknown (29:31):
fellas bow in the corner.
Brandice Sills-Payne (29:33):
Yeah, the lunch room, right? No, I mean,
raise your voice in those spaceswhere where you have influence
and use your influence and useyour power. And at the end of
the day, like you're probablygoing to be okay. In my
experience, the people I knowthat have said like, Hey, we
need to change this. They'vemade it out. Okay, and they and
(29:57):
they've made they've made adifference, right. And that's
the way to do it. Also havethose conversations in the
lunchroom, you know, becausepeople need to know that people
care and they see you and they,they understand that like, you
know, things need to change. Butwhen you're sitting in those
rooms with the people who whotheir eyes are not open, you
know, there has to be a voice inthe room. And it's a lot more
(30:20):
effective when the voice lookslike them.
Rocki Howard (30:23):
Appreciate that. I can't believe we're almost just
about 30 minutes in. So, youknow, here's always the last
question on this, this podcast,and I want you to take us out
here. Our platform is aboutgiving a voice to individuals
who are underrepresented, right?
That's, that's our mission here.
(30:43):
So as a voice for theunderrepresented today, what
would you like to say to peopleof what it's like to go through
corporate America as a personwho's underrepresented?
Brandice Sills-Payne (31:00):
I mean, it can be a lonely road. But what's
nice now is there there areplaces of support, like you have
to have support, you have tohave somebody out there that you
can talk to. And, you know, alot of people are talking to
right now and feeling like likementorship is not a thing
anymore. And, you know, we'vealways done this, since the
(31:24):
beginning of time is rallyaround each other and spin and,
and find support around peoplewho who are going through what
you're going through. I thinkthat, that that's really
important. My experience hasbeen the opposite of that, you
know, I've kind of traverse thisroad alone. And, you know, by
the grace of God wouldn't havebeen strong enough and resilient
(31:45):
enough to continue to makeprogress. But as an
underrepresented person. I mean,if I'm being honest, like, it's
just hard. It's just really,really hard. It's exhausting. It
is infinitely taxing, you know,in so many different ways. And I
(32:06):
don't think people reallyunderstand that, because we're
so good at showing up and makingit look easy. And it is not
easy. And I think, you know,naming that, and visibility
around that is so important.
Because at the end of the day,you know, no matter who you are,
you want to be seen, and youwant to be heard. And we don't
(32:27):
want to sit around and crytogether and you know,
businesses business,
Rocki Howard (32:31):
I don't want to sing Kumbaya.
Unknown (32:37):
Maybe just,
Brandice Sills-Payne (32:40):
you know, but people everybody wants to be
seen, and everybody wants to beheard. And, for me, if, if if
someone had just like said like,it wasn't just me seeing it,
like if I have some validationthat like, like you're doing a
really hard thing. You know,talk about mental health a lot.
It's really, really important.
And it really, really affectspeople. And if you're in a space
(33:01):
and you think that, that someoneyou see a person of color, and
you see that they're the onlyface in the room, then our
allies need to know that there'sso much more to that story than
what we're then what we're whatwe think it is or what we what
we imagine it is for thatperson. And we need to see that
we need to acknowledge that. Ilove that.
Rocki Howard (33:25):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for what you do. Thankyou for who you are. Thank you
for sharing this space with withwith us today. Thank you for
being a voice of blackleadership. I appreciate you.
Brandice Sills-Payne (33:39):
Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard (33:41):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
The mission of this podcast isto give a voice to diversity. I
believe that the interactionsbetween all voices, minority and
majority can change thenarrative of how the world
communicates. And by changingthat narrative, we can change
(34:03):
the world. Join our mission tohumanize diversity, one story,
one conversation at a time bysharing our episodes, especially
with those who are privilegedand in positions of power. Help
the voices of diversity podcast,be a catalyst for courageous
(34:23):
conversations, and mostimportantly, for change. I'm
your host Rocki Howard
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.