October 4, 2023 • 61 mins
Join us in this episode as we delve into the captivating world of Kamal X, a self-taught documentary photographer hailing from Brooklyn, New York. Kamal's lens doesn't just capture images; it reveals the power of photography to foster empathy, spark conversations, and bring about social change. From his global expedition in honor of a dear friend to his powerful documentation of the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, Kamal's journey demonstrates how photography transcends borders and transforms lives. Discover the hidden truths of humanity through his lens and gain insight into his upcoming project, 'Black Astronaut,' set to release in late 2023. Don't miss this insightful conversation about the boundless potential of visual storytelling.
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Episode Transcript
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Amelia (00:00):
Welcome to Voices of Inspiration.
I'm your host, amelia Olde, andtoday you're in for a
captivating conversation withKamal X, a self-taught
documentary photographer basedin Brooklyn, new York.
Kamal's journey is a testamentto the power of storytelling
through the lens of a camera.
In 2015, kamal made alife-altering decision to travel
(00:21):
the world, dedicating thisadventure to his best friend,
who lost his battle to coloncancer.
This personal commitmentignited his creative spirit,
shaping his unique style ofrevealing the hidden narratives
of humanity, often overlooked.
Kamal gained significantrecognition in 2020 during the
Black Lives Matter protest inOakland, california and
(00:44):
Washington DC.
His impactful images werefeatured in the New York Times
and a series of beautifulOakland DC earned him second
place in lens cultures black andwhite photography awards.
In 2021, kamal was prominentlyfeatured in Apple's Hometown
campaign celebrating blackphotographers across America.
He also self-published hisdebut book, a Quest Supreme,
(01:06):
chronicling five years of travelto over 40 countries in search
of inner peace.
Stay tuned for Kamal's upcomingrelease, Black Astronaut on
October 24, 2023, a visualmasterpiece capturing a
nationwide revolution sparked bythe pandemic and George Floyd's
tragic passing.
Join me as we explore Kamal'sremarkable journey in the
(01:28):
powerful stories he's capturedthrough his lens.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(01:59):
I'm really grateful that youtook time out of your busy
schedule to be with me and toshare your story and to talk
about your journey.
Kamal (02:20):
Yeah, I'm definitely so thankful to be here, excited,
inspired even, because I thinkit's just beautiful connecting
with new people and havingmeaningful conversation, because
you, just you, really you knowwe're creating right now and you
never know where it's going togo, but I really feel like
something amazing and beautifulis going to happen.
You know, I agree.
Thank you so much.
Amelia (02:40):
So your journey into photography started as a tribute
to your late friend.
Can you tell us more about howthat decision unfolded and how
it shaped your creative path?
Yeah, it was very.
See, I lost.
My best friend Drew.
We were, I think, 26.
I'm 37 now and he he passedaway from colon cancer.
(03:10):
And I remember when that, duringthis whole process to chemo and
everything, it was such a wedidn't understand what any of it
really meant.
You know, at that age it wasjust like you'll be fine, like
being supportive and being greatfriends in the way we could,
but we didn't know the severity,we didn't think he would pass
away, basically.
So I remember it was aThanksgiving and something made
me come early.
I was living in LA and he's inNew Jersey.
(03:30):
Something made me come backearly.
Like I was just like let mejust spend some extra time.
I didn't even know he was inthe hospital.
And I got there and he was inthe hospital and he was.
When I went to see him helooked you know nothing like who
I, you know, used to seeing andI realized immediately how
(03:54):
serious this was.
But at the same time I stilldidn't think you know, I'm
pulling from the pull through,you know.
So when he unfortunately, youknow, transitioned, my world
completely collapsed and at thatpoint I was a life coach and a
personal trainer living in LA, Iwas working at Equinox actually
(04:15):
, and I had my own little thingon the side I was doing and I
remember I just literallydropped everything.
I said I had nothing to give toanyone.
This was such a catastrophicexperience and it was so weird
because I didn't even know howto feel about it.
Like you watch movies, you hearabout things, you see other
people, but I guess at that agethat level of that type of
(04:38):
situation is just such a even abest friend at that, you know,
not an associate or so, but abest close friend.
I remember I didn't know how tonavigate it.
So I'm happy that I made thechoice to just drop everything,
because I just I don't know whatelse I would have done and what
I did was he loved that I was afree person.
So for him he was actuallyclaustrophobic, is the funniest
(05:00):
person I've ever met in my life.
And he was claustrophobic,couldn't get on elevators.
It was such a thing.
When we went to clubs it was sofunny but like no planes,
nothing, you know.
So I was at that point I livedin LA.
I moved to Atlanta before, sohe looked at me as like this
freedom person like yo, I can'tbelieve that you just get up and
go and find a place and find ajob.
It was just such a he reallyloved that about me and to me it
(05:23):
was just me being normal, fastforward.
When that, when that happened, Isaid what can I do for my
brother that he liked about methat I can just push, at times a
thousand, and it was travel.
So at that point I just decidedto get a bag go to and I never
backpacked.
I never knew anyone in myfamily that did it.
It wasn't like my friends.
This is a completely foreignconcept to go backpacking.
(05:46):
And I went to Cambodia, thailandand Laos for 40 days and life
shifting experience, to say theleast, extremely uncomfortable.
Didn't know what I was doing.
I remember I came out therewith like so much luggage.
It was crazy, like I had thisbig, big bag and when I was with
this group there was like heyman, how are you going to like
get new stuff?
(06:07):
It was like, and I had like allmy gear, sneakers.
I was.
I didn't know how to be atraveler, you know, I was
dressing like the way where I'mfrom and it was a life shifting
experience and I grew so muchand I became like I just kept
going and that one trip ended upbeing off and on, traveling for
five years to over 40 differentcountries.
(06:30):
And between that time I was, Ithink, I was in Ecuador and I
met a new friend named Anna andwe were sleeping on a volcano
and what was happened?
And we were taking pictures ofthe erupting volcano that was
across from us or something likethat, and I was taking a
picture with a 4S and she waslike.
(06:51):
She asked her what do you shootwith?
Because she assumed I hadanother camera in my bag.
I said this, this little 4S.
And she had a real DSLR.
So she's looking at me like uh,okay, you're going to have to
change that around.
You've been traveling the world, you've seen all these
countries, you're seeing this.
And then she took one.
She had a tripod and everything.
She was with another friendnamed Miles.
They both were photographersand they showed me the picture
(07:14):
from.
It was like Canon 6D and Iremember I was like whoa.
She was like, yeah, this isfull frame, like oh.
So I remember looking at thecamera like that picture versus
my picture was whoa.
So I immediately brought a NikonD33, 3300, I think it's called
and started shooting and thatstarted to just taking pictures
(07:37):
as I was traveling, I wasfinding healing, I was finding
purpose.
I still, you know, I'm tryingto deal with the grief, and I
was like getting it out throughexperiences and meeting people
and getting to know myself on adifferent level, and all this
was happening with a camera inmy hand, so it kind of like
naturally came out of, not outof nowhere, but it was very
(07:58):
unexpected.
It was very unexpected andpeople started giving me
compliments like yourphotography is pretty good.
I'm like, ah, you know, I'mthinking Instagram, algorithm
stuff.
I'm not thinking, oh, I'm anartist, I'm just like a person
trying to, you know, getsponsors and things of that
nature, and I remember it was afriend of mine when I was living
in New York.
(08:19):
She saw my place.
She was like, yo, you're anartist, and I was like I
accepted it.
She was a teacher, and I waslike you know what?
Maybe there's something too.
This people keep bringing it up, and I just kind of like leaned
in and things started openingup.
It wasn't easy, though, but I,I it was like it gave travel
purpose, it gave the journey.
(08:40):
I was on purpose and I knew Iwas seeing things that most
people don't see, and it gave me, it gave me a amazing feeling
to be able to bring people intomy world Cause that like, if I
say I've been to 40, 50countries, like that's, I
appreciate that, but a personthat doesn't, they're just like
oh, what does it mean if I can'tshow you?
(09:01):
So for me, having that mediumhas always been a great way of
expression and it's grown into abeautiful thing, and why we're
here today you know that's soincredible.
One thing I want to say back to about your friend is I
think I want to commend you forbeing there for your friend,
because my husband and I wewe're on the board of a
(09:22):
nonprofit Cancer for College andthey give college scholarships
to cancer survivors and a lot ofthe scholars that we talked to
and that we've talked over theyears.
One of the things that they sayis when they were diagnosed
with cancer, you know, whateverage they were, friends tend to
kind of fall off the radar.
(09:42):
Friends kind of disappear, notbecause they don't care, but
because they don't know how todeal with it.
They don't know how to supportthem, they don't understand it,
and so the easiest way for themis to kind of just like you know
, close off and not be there,and so I really commend you for
(10:06):
being there.
I think that that is anincredibly important you know,
as a self taught photographer,what have been some of the
challenges or what were some ofthe challenges that you faced
along the way of learningphotography.
Kamal (10:22):
Um, I would say I think it's a challenge for anybody,
but I think it's finding yourown voice, finding what you
really care about.
There's a couple photographersI remember like when you start
out, you like taking pictures ofeverything, right, and then you
don't really Upload much of it,are you upload a bunch of it
and it doesn't.
(10:42):
It's not good enough to showanybody, so it's taking up
memory.
And I remember thisphotographer was like why are
you taking pictures of thingsthat don't move you?
It's like, hmm, that'sinteresting things that move me.
So like I kind of, as I startedgoing to things that moved me,
it kind of pushed me into thespace of, you know, documentary
style street photography.
(11:03):
Now, the challenge with that isthat on Instagram and social
media, which is where I kind ofwas just trying all this stuff
out, which is most, all mostcreatives use that medium.
That's not with the algorithmreally likes, you know, like
it's more about.
Take a picture of you in frontof Eiffel Tower wearing a nice
outfit, go eating at arestaurant, but in terms of
(11:25):
taking street photographyshowing what you're seeing and
just being more, I would say,artistic, I would say that
doesn't normally correlate.
You know, if I do a picture ofme, I Get a bunch of you know,
and it feels good.
But then when you put thatother thing, that's what you
really like, what you saw, it'snot a lot, it's a lot of
crickets off to times and, Ithink, learning.
(11:49):
Thankfully, I kept researchingand researching and finding
older not older, but like moreexperienced photographers and
seeing, like, the differencebetween and there's a difference
between, let me say, a socialmedia so yeah, social media
photographer, which is no shadeor hate on that versus someone
(12:09):
that's like in the industryPhotography right, there's two
different worlds.
They don't really collide theway people think.
And once I realized that, I waslike Okay, you're not, this
isn't you.
This space on Instagram justdoesn't fit your aesthetic.
And when I shifted it, it againhelp me find my voice.
And just choosing to stick tomy guns.
(12:31):
Because when you don't have aClass or school, when you have
Classmates and people can likeyou can talk to about these
things, you're really in thedark room, like, you're really
like is this good, is it right?
Do I know what I'm doing whenI'm talking?
And especially in the beginning, when I was meeting
photographers, they would talkto me with language I didn't
understand.
(12:51):
Like what do you shoot with?
I was like what, what am Isupposed to say when you say
that to me?
I don't even know what thatmeans now.
Obviously I'm well more versedin it, but I would say finding
voice and and doing it wasdifficult.
But I appreciate it was doingthe work, meaning Learning all
the information, like gettinglike I have over 80 photography
(13:14):
books, like I started watchingall these documentaries and like
just interviews and just likeeven directors and seeing how to
create movies and Luckily Ihave always loved Film.
I just didn't realize it was mygift.
Like, even though becoming aphotographer was a surprise,
(13:35):
I've always kind of gravitatedtowards cameras, keeping
memories.
I watch a lot of movies, so Iguess it was kind of always
there and it just like the roadscollided in a great way.
But, um, yeah, I would say justlearning it on my own and being
confident and being, but it'salso, it was difficult, but it
also gave me, I think, an edgebecause I didn't go through Then
(14:00):
the normal route.
I would say I kind of havelearned to have a much thicker
skin.
I've learned to be very likethis, what I feel, that's what I
want to do.
I'm gonna do it like whereas Ithink sometimes Having so many
people to compare yourself tocan kind of limit you because
you won't kind of think foryourself Sometimes in terms of
(14:20):
finding your own way, you know.
So it's been difficult, butit's been beautiful.
At the same time.
I would say yeah.
Amelia (14:25):
I mean, I think that that is.
I mean, you're right on pointwith that Because social media,
we see this person and we seethat person and we're like, oh
well, they're doing it that way.
And they're doing it that way.
Maybe that's what I need to do,because they're successful, and
maybe I need to be just likethem and we lose ourselves and
we lose our own voice Along theway.
(14:46):
So I mean you're right on pointwith that.
How do you approach the processof storytelling through through
your photography?
Kamal (14:55):
doing.
Oh, I don't know, it's actuallya pretty heavy time.
It's a probably morecomplicated like.
It's Like I don't take picturesit's weird to say this, but
like I don't take pictures ofanything I haven't seen before.
Like it's, it's a process.
It's like if I'm feelingsomething, it like black
astronauts, the book is comingout right.
(15:16):
So obviously that's a littledifferent.
Because when George Floyd passedaway at Montarbery the pandemic
, women's rights, trump, allthat was happening Before that I
was sitting looking, learningabout photography, seeing what
happened in like the 70s, the60s, the 80s, going through
photography books.
Eli read all types ofphotographers, that especially
(15:38):
civil rights movement millionman in March, and I'm just
thinking to myself, while Iwould never get that opportunity
, like what was it?
It had to been.
It sucked to be having thosestruggles, but to be a
photographer during that time,to be able to take those photos
like America doesn't do thatanymore Like in terms of, from a
photography standpoint.
So in my mind, the intentionsbeen there, like I hope
(15:58):
something.
You don't want it to be bad,but you're like I'm a
photographer and I want todocument something that really
matters To the, to our country,in our history.
And so when it.
When that all happened, I knew Ihad to call.
I knew this was like I'm ready.
Like you know, there wasn't aoh, let's just do this.
I was.
I knew this is, this is amoment that I need to take
(16:20):
seriously.
I knew that I wanted to makesomething of this that matters
to myself, my friends, my familyand, hopefully, you know, other
people, and so I think the theprocess is a very well Thought.
Like the next project I'mworking on is another one that
I've been Just talking aboutwith friends, and it comes like
(16:42):
through me, versus it being like, oh, that's interesting, I want
to do it.
It's like a slow process andthat way I'm more emotionally
connected to the work, and Ithink when you're more
emotionally connected to whatyou're shooting, it shows in the
in the photography, versus ifyou're just taking pictures of
things.
It's like you might be reallygood at photography, so maybe
like you're artistically amazing, but like the feeling you might
(17:05):
miss, you know, and so that'skind of my, my process in terms
of yeah.
Amelia (17:14):
And the focus of your photography is on revealing
hidden truths of humanity.
Can you share an example of astory that you've captured that
really Resonates with you inthis regard?
Kamal (17:27):
Well, it's funny because we're kind of talking about it
one and a half and it's in this,the, the project, the black
astronaut project.
It's um.
There's a photo where it's awoman in an astronaut suit.
She's like been back, her hairis going down and she's looking
to the sky and in the back ithas a word saying don't be a
slave to the algorithm.
And within that photo there'salso, if you look closely,
(17:52):
there's going to, there's a lotof photos of iPhone.
What X is on them, like justcrossing them out, and the whole
idea is like when I was takingthose pictures and just like all
throughout America, whenAmerica was locked down, I was
risking it all, literally beforewe had the vaccine, before we
knew how dangerous the actualCOVID was.
We didn't know, and I rememberseeing all sides of the argument
(18:15):
because I was just veryopen-minded and I didn't want to
get one side of.
I went everywhere and what Inoticed was there was definitely
levels of you know, outragebased on we're supposed to be
outraged versus thinking aboutindependently, about what you
feel, what is actually going on,being able to listen, hear one
(18:39):
another, like I saw so muchdiscourse, fighting, yelling and
I'm just thinking to myselflike no one's talking with each
other, y'all talking about eachother, and I just I saw another
A documentary on Netflix, Ithink the social dilemma I think
it's called, or something likethat when he goes into how
phones are, like Getting ourminds, you know, and I was just
(19:01):
like man that's.
I want to say something aboutthis in my own way.
Like you have to kind of Unplugand and get into the world,
like because when you actuallygo into the world and talk to
people, connect With people, youknow it's from traveling, like
when you meet people, it's atotally different reality than
what you may see on your phone.
And and it's becoming more andmore prevalent that I think
(19:25):
people are being warped in Amore closed off reality and I
just want that was my way oflike, you know, making a
statement to make people youknow not make, but hopefully
inspire people to think,definitely to take a step back,
instead of always trying to havethe answer, always having to
(19:47):
check, like got it all together,like it's okay to not know,
it's okay to be unsure, it'sokay to take time to listen and
not have anything to say for achange, you know, like, and
that's kind of where I've beenwith a lot of things.
I just and that's one thing Ilove about photography it gives
me a moment to sit back andwatch and it can get very real,
emotional, but that's what makeslife worth living to me, you
(20:12):
know, like getting into thetruth and getting uncomfortable
in a good way, you know.
So that's one of those photos?
Amelia (20:18):
yeah, it's okay to sit back and to observe and to form
your own opinion versuseverything that you see on
social media or on television.
You're absolutely right.
Kamal (20:30):
And it goes kind of to what we were saying about the
photography in terms of you know, you take a picture.
If you look at a lot of art letme not say art, but like in
terms of photographers onlineI'll say you can start to see
the same kind of photos over andover again.
You'll start to see thispressure to fit into a box and
(20:51):
you may think that you're, thisis me.
But the question is, is it youIf you haven't taken the time to
sit back and really askyourself, like, how do I know
I'm?
Am I really so far out the boxor am I following something and
I haven't been in the worldenough to really be able to get
a real image of myself?
You know, so self-reflection isso important to me.
(21:11):
That's what helped me continueto be healing through the
process with my best friend, andyou know it's a powerful tool.
It's difficult, but it's apowerful tool for sure.
Amelia (21:21):
Yeah, you know, when you captured the 2020 Black Lives
Matter protest, what was it likebeing on the front lines of
such a historic movement and howdid that influence your
perspective as a photographer?
Kamal (21:36):
Extremely emotional, like I was saying.
It was there because,especially as being a Black man,
you know like there weremoments, especially tense
moments, between police andcivilians, with a very, a lot of
yelling, a lot of greatarguments being given, words of
just truth and honesty, cryinglike just.
(21:59):
And you're shooting theseevents.
I'm taking these pictures but Ireally want to be yelling with
them, you know.
So it's not.
It's a very confusing place tobe, but you're there, but you
want to.
You know the images.
That's my way of yelling,getting that image so it can
live on.
But I remember there wereplenty of times where I just
started crying as I was takingpictures.
(22:20):
You know, I remember the firsttime I went out, actually there
was a huge rally in SanFrancisco and there were, like
it was, a lot of people.
This is like in the beginning,when, like George Floyd just
happened and they were doing, ifyou remember, there was like a
lot of videos of like all thesepeople marching and this was
against the COVID lockdowns andthis was a very large gathering
(22:43):
and I remember I just startedcrying also because I was.
You know I was, and this is SanFrancisco does not have a huge
Black population.
Oakland's a little different,but like San Francisco doesn't.
So I remember standing outthere and I was one of the few
Black people, like in the area.
But the level of sincerity andI guess I don't know what to
(23:06):
call that, but just love I wasreceiving and it was very
authentic and real was veryuncomfortable for me but very
emotional too.
You know.
You can just feel that we allwere like we get it, you know,
or we're trying to get it, andyou know.
So it was very, very real.
It felt like every day and Iwas going out every day, every
(23:27):
night, around the clock, youknow, and it was never an easy
moment.
There was always something thatwas like a challenge.
There was always something Ineeded to question myself and
figure out and ask why do I wantto take that photo?
Is this worth?
There were some things I sawthat I think a lot of
photographers would have takenpictures of.
I felt like that wasn't right.
(23:48):
You know, like so it's also.
Discernment is also anotherthing and I think it ultimately
it taught me the importance ofbeing dedicated to what you're
trying to say.
You know, like, I think, people, often it takes a lot to really
find your voice, find your wayin anything, and I've never
(24:13):
dedicated that much time andphysical energy to anything and
I would have never thought beinga photographer was like this
physical thing like.
But you really do need to be inshape, like you're running,
your body needs to be flexible,you have to get, and I'm
six-five, so there's like a lotof times when I'm taking
pictures of people and theymight be shorter than me so I
have to get really low quickly,like there's so much that goes
(24:33):
into it.
So it just taught me thatphotography is a sport, you know
, and it's like you better be inshape if you really want to do
it.
And you got to go every day.
It's not something that you canjust like oh, I got my camera,
I'm gonna take some pictures.
Like this book took three years,you know, and the one before
that, quest Supreme, took five,you know.
(24:54):
So it's a very dedicated thing,but I love it.
So you kind of have to love itif you really want to.
I think excel in photographyit's something you can't cheat
it.
You cannot cheat it, you justcan't.
You don't have to buy expensiveequipment, you don't need to do
that, but the work you have toevery day you got to be like
(25:18):
zoned in to do something I thinkspecial.
Amelia (25:21):
Yeah, Absolutely.
Now you just mentioned QuestSupreme.
It documents your travels toover 40 countries, as you
mentioned earlier, in search ofthis inner piece.
What were some of the mosttransformative experiences
during your global journey?
Kamal (25:37):
Oh man, that's whoa, that's a lot.
Oh, wow, so many, so many.
Uh, oh, there's so many.
I remember it was one in thebeginning, there was so many,
but there was one when I was inThailand, the first trip, the
(25:58):
40-day trip, and we did the fullmoon party in Copenhagen.
I didn't even know that was onthe list of things to do.
So like I'm so remote I don'tknow anything about like I
remember, like because I waswith a tour group of young
people that were just like, so I, because I didn't know how to
backpack.
So I remember we will be like,hey, we're going to Cambodia.
(26:19):
I was like, okay, what partsthey're.
Like, oh, you don't know wherewe're going, I don't know
Everything wasn't surprised.
Like they would take me to the,the temples.
I'm like oh wow.
Like I didn't know, I wasn'tprepared, I just had really nice
clothes, that's it.
And we were.
So we went to the full moonparty.
I knew nothing about what thiswas.
They were telling me like, ohmy God, it's like a big fray,
(26:41):
even it's at night, in the fullmoon.
Like, wow, that sounds amazing.
I can't believe I'm doing this.
So I remember we did it and welike we're like the highlighter
clothes.
It was like, I think, seven ofus and this is like at the end
of this, like how I ended that40 day trip actually.
So I got to see some of thepeople I met in that very
beginning and it was just a veryloving, like fun, but just
(27:04):
embracing each other and withthe full moon and the beach and
the music and just I justremember feeling a sense of like
yo, this would have neverhappened if you never took a
step forward, if you neverstepped out of your comfort zone
.
You like you just met sevenpeople that you're going to be
friends with the rest of yourlife.
(27:24):
I am still friends with themall.
They're from all differentplaces you would have never not
in wherever you were living.
So just that level of seeinghow intention really affects,
like when you walk into thethings you want to do, how far
it can go.
Another one was this is reallysmall, but I was in Indonesia, I
(27:47):
was in Bali and there was theGile Islands and it's amazing.
I love the Gile Islands.
I did like 10 days there and Iremember at this time I was
asking people what does yourname mean?
I will walk up to people and Ireally enjoy meeting people and
I was like, what does your namemean?
Like I would really be curiousif you have interesting name
meanings most of the time.
I remember this one guy.
He was just like I don'tremember.
(28:09):
We were like on the beach atlike four o'clock in the morning
.
It was beautiful, the waves,and there was these random
couches on the beach and this isBali.
This is amazing, you know like,and it was like all of us all
around the same age is kickingit, talking about life, sharing
our struggles with not knowingwho we are parent pressure,
career pressure, relationshippressure but we all kind of like
(28:30):
let it out that night and justlike it was like a freeing
moment.
And one of the guys that Iasked that to he's like I don't
know what my name means and itwas really like he was in his
mind about it.
So the next day, next morning,we were leaving on a boat to go
to the main island, to get to gohome, and he's running.
It was like a movie.
He's like, come on, come on.
He's like I know what my namemeans and I can't remember what
(28:53):
it was, but it just, it was justsuch a beautiful moment because
it's like wow again, theseconnections, these moments that
you might not think nothing ofyour, your, your, your shifting
people's lives and they'reshifting yours at the same time.
It's such a, it's such abeautiful experience to be
traveling, and especially whenyou're, you know, doing things
(29:15):
outside of the comfort zone,outside of the tourist stuff,
really exploring yourself.
You know like it's.
It's immaculate, really it is.
Amelia (29:24):
Yeah, and I think that you're right like doing things
outside of the tourist stuff andthat's so important to me and
in stripping yourself of thethings that you're used to right
, like when my husband and I wehiked to Mount Everest Base Camp
five years ago.
And we didn't summit.
You know, we didn't do thesummit, we just went to base
camp, but that was that wassomething.
Kamal (29:45):
No, you were.
You said I'm going, that's an.
You did that part.
That's already like 2% ofhumanity.
That's amazing.
Wow, what was that like?
Amelia (29:55):
Yeah, it was the most difficult thing that I'd ever
done, both physically andmentally, because and it wasn't
even necessarily strippingyourself of the material items
that you're used to it was moreso for me.
Now I ended up at the end I hada lot of health problems.
(30:16):
Afterwards, it turns out, I hadasthma and I didn't even know
when I was an asthma attack.
The whole time I was there andhad no idea.
Like by the time I got home myface was like a big tomato.
It was just me and red becauseof the altitude, but for me it
was more so.
Have an idle time in my mindright, like now I have time to
(30:39):
think about things, now I havetime to write things down and to
like really be with myself, andsometimes we're not always
comfortable with that right.
We don't want that because wekeep ourselves so busy, because
we don't want to think aboutsome things, and so, and
actually I don't think I've evereven talked about that portion
of the trip.
I've spoken about the tripnumerous times but I've never
(31:01):
really shared that.
That was the piece that reallyalmost like oh, now I can't.
You know you don't have youriPad or your phone in bed to
scroll TikTok at night or youknow, or a lot of your friends
(31:22):
or family members around you.
I mean, you're with a lot ofstrangers and we made friends
and we had an amazing,incredible time, really
transformative time.
But it definitely gave you timeto think and I think some of
those trips, like what you'retalking about, it does.
It makes you think about thingsthat you wouldn't have if you
(31:43):
were home.
Kamal (31:44):
Yeah, definitely.
And it can get very like yousaid.
It can get very uncomfortable,like it's not.
It wasn't a beauty show for me,like those five years there was
some tough, tough times, plentyof times where I wanted to just
leave.
I remember one time I called mymom.
I was like I don't like thisanymore, like it was too
difficult culturally, thingsthat worked at home and I've
(32:07):
always been a social person.
I had to learn how to becomesocial internationally, because
it's a different way ofcommunication, it's a different,
it's different.
So I didn't know.
So I'm doing my Jersey thing andthe Jersey thing ain't working
and I'm thinking they don't likeme because something wrong,
they're judging me.
And I remember my mom was likeyo, just you paid all that money
, have a good time, stop tryingto be people's friends, just do
(32:32):
you.
And when I did that, to mysurprise, all of a sudden I
became.
I met so many people and Irealized it was me, it wasn't
them, it wasn't the world aroundme, it was me trying to fit
Well, not, I don't know what, Iwas trying to fit in, but just
focusing on the wrong part.
You come all the way out there.
It's not about them, it's aboutyou.
(32:52):
And once you make it about you,naturally them becomes a
co-created space, versus tryingto live through just the people
you meet.
It needs to be like a littlebit of both.
So it's challenging but it'sbeautiful at the same time.
Amelia (33:09):
Now you were in 2021,.
You were featured in Apple'shometown campaign Celebrating
black photographers acrossAmerica.
How did this recognition impactyour artistic vision and career
?
Kamal (33:21):
Oh, it was a beautiful push.
Oh man, that was the wake upcall.
That's the one I remember.
I was driving, I was driving to, I was driving somewhere and I
got the email and I'm like isthis real?
Cause it was like Apple.
I'm like, come on, come on,yeah, who's trying to get my
(33:42):
information?
And then I remember she waslike, yeah, to send you, you
decided NDA to move forward.
I was like this is real.
Amelia (33:51):
Okay.
Kamal (33:52):
So I had to park the car.
I was like, okay, this isreally, you know so, and I
remember it was like it was gametime.
It wasn't like, oh, you got twomonths to figure it out and it
was like you need to.
You got we have a meeting inlike a week or like three days.
You need to have your wholeconcept ready.
You have, we're going to giveyou the tools to use.
You can't use your equipment,you can't use random.
(34:15):
They were just saying so manythings I couldn't use Like.
You just have to basically getto the, just a camera phone and
your subject.
That's all you can do andyou're going not against.
But it is like a competition toa degree you don't want to.
You know you got otherphotographers in different
places and at that point Ididn't know how many, I didn't
know like the number, I didn'tknow whether more people in the
(34:36):
Bay Area, I didn't know if itwas gonna, I didn't know.
So I Just I love the challengeof it and it was such a
beautiful not beautiful but IDon't know like it was like game
time, like it was like, and youeither step up to the plate or
you get scary and you drop theball and I kind of really do.
(34:56):
Well, when the odds are againstme, like stacked, and I think
you know, and they didn't, and Ididn't know it was gonna be
billboards, anything orcommercials, like they didn't
say any of that, it was likethis could happen, but we'll see
.
They didn't even make it seemlike it would even be chosen,
like we gotta see what you doand then We'll make a decision.
So when it became, they gotaccepted and then, you know, it
(35:18):
went online, it went tobillboards, it was on the Super
Bowl.
One of the photos was in theSuper Bowl commercial.
It was like yo, so again, someof the stuff I was saying
earlier about, like you, youjust have to really believe in
yourself and not be afraid to doyour voice and take will have
your voice.
Because even in the PhotographyI took, like you know, I didn't
(35:39):
want to do anything that wassimilar to anybody else.
You know, and I remember when Iwas telling them my concepts
they were like, okay, I mean,well, you know, we'll see.
But I knew it was like itwasn't necessarily what they
might have wanted to hear.
Well, I don't know that, but Ifelt that way.
But they were very supportiveand beautiful people.
I love everyone over there and,yeah, I it was.
(36:00):
It was a great growth spurt, Iwould say.
And after you do something likethat, there's a couple of
pressures not one.
You do feel good about yourself, it opens a lot of doors, and
but also it's like, okay, now,what you know, what are you
gonna do now?
It's like, how do you push theenvelope as a creative, as an
artist, how do you?
(36:21):
What's the next level?
Oh, you know, and that's thewhere I'm at, that's one of the
more conversations that havemore consistently.
And now I really understandthis part of artistry.
When you've gotten out of theBeginner stage, so to speak, and
you're like, in your career,you've done some things that you
really are proud of, and it'slike, okay, what?
How do you push the envelope?
(36:42):
How do you continue to recreate?
Do you recreate?
Do you go a different lane?
It's such a very it's, it's,it's, it's a, it's a thing, it's
a thing and it's um, IUnderstand it and I think the
deeper I get into the, the moreI have appreciation for other
artists, and especially the onesthat have had longevity, the
(37:04):
ones that have continued to stayconsistent, the ones that
continue to grow.
I think growing is like you have.
Again, you got to put the timeand you got to put the effort in
and so, yeah, that Appleexperience Really opened my eyes
to just what I can do and alsobeing ready for any moment that
(37:25):
comes my way, like I will neverbe afraid of.
I wasn't afraid of that event,but like it, at least it wasn't
in my head.
Now it was like I had real.
I Played that out and it wentvery well and I try to.
You know, I just keep thatmentality moving forward.
The best is I can anyway.
Amelia (37:44):
I think when we do progress in our careers or our
passions, Oftentimes it's usgetting in our own head right
when we went out on the light.
We're like Get you know whatthey say imposter syndrome like
well, do I?
Really belong in this space,like is this really for me?
Am I really good enough and I?
I think that oftentimes it'sjust us getting in our own head.
Kamal (38:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely Trust.
It's a part of the process.
But you got like remember.
Like again, don't be a slave tothe algorithm.
Like don't let any likeremember who you are.
Like remember who you are.
And I always tell myselfWhenever I'm feeling
uncomfortable, whatever I'm likequestion myself, be like
remember your story, bro,remember your reason.
(38:26):
Like I told you about my bestfriend, his birthday was March
7th minus March 5th.
I per one of the reasons I wearthis hat all the time is because
of the seven.
It's like he's constantly withme and it's like when you've
dealt with stuff like that, itmakes those things it's in other
people like secondary.
Like I'm not gonna let youdefeat me After I've triumphed
(38:47):
through these real things.
This is just this, isn't eitheryou make it a break.
It has been things I've.
I've had opportunities that I'dnot failed that, but it didn't
go the way I wanted.
You know there were bigopportunities, contest that I
would the finalists didn't workout.
I gave my all, but I won't letthat defeat me.
It's like it happens.
It's just a part of the game.
(39:07):
But just remember your reason,you know.
Remember why you're here.
Amelia (39:10):
Yeah, Now, the power of visual storytelling is immense.
How do you hope that yourphotography can contribute to a
better understanding of complexsocial issues?
Kamal (39:21):
Doing the work again, like really diving into things,
like I think, as a photographer,especially in today's culture
and I've only learned this fromthe from the older photographers
that I've connected with overthe years and followed from afar
.
They always say youngphotographers leaves to leave
too quick.
They say we go to scenes, wetake pictures and we're
(39:42):
sometimes what it was firstpeople out and it's like you
need to stay.
You never know you might missthat one shot, it might be just
one moment at the end of thatevent or wherever you're at.
Like don't be so quick andhasty, even in the Making
photography books, like nowadays, you know I think some
photographers are doing it likewithin a year.
(40:02):
It's like you didn't reallydive into that topic, it to take
, like this next one I'm doing,I'm Respecting this to take at
least four years, you know likeand I think, giving it that
level of respect of whateveryou're trying to say.
I think that's how you you makea statement, versus Looking at
things from just the top of thethe cover instead of really
(40:26):
going underneath and reallylearning about and showing
respect to who you're takingpictures of.
You know that was one of thereasons with black astronaut.
That made me that also motivateme, because I feel like a lot
of photos weren't realistic towhat was actually going on.
I think the photographers maybethey just didn't Understand the
, the emotions, like how I wascrying at the police line, like
(40:48):
maybe because I I reallyunderstand what's happening.
Maybe that gave me a differentI into the situation.
There was also times you knowwhere I was at different rallies
and I think, because I gotaccess, I got access they.
We recognized each other.
They knew what I was there for.
There was a trust there.
So I think the same thing goeswith any topic you go into and
(41:11):
that's based on everyphotographer, every moment.
It's like Do you, are you herejust to take photos?
Are you going to like be a partof this experience with the
subject?
Are you going to really dive inand show respect and gain their
trust?
You know, instead of takingphotos, you're actually like
what taking, like making photoswith the subject.
I think that's something that Ireally learned and that's
(41:35):
something I try to do, and Ithink that Translates
differently when you're seeingit, because it gives the honest
Something that might not be seen, you know something that might
have been missed, nuances thatare like, wow, you know, like
it's even like if people andmaybe you're not, someone's not
a photographer Like just thinkabout, like having interesting
(41:57):
conversations with people howmany people are with friends?
But because they don't kind ofgo into deeper topics or ask
different questions, they don'tknow a lot about that person.
But if you, you know, put,actually start to spend time and
turn the TV off, turn the phoneoff and Communicate, you might
wow, I didn't know you.
You know, it's the same thingwith artistry.
It's like taking your time,like just, and you'll find out
(42:19):
new things and and then it'llmake it.
It'll help in terms of the factthat so many people are trying
to do the same thing you'redoing, because now, you know,
photography, media, everyone'sin the game.
So how do you find your voice?
How do you find your voice?
How do you become?
How do you stand out?
And I think you stand out bydoing the work, because a lot,
(42:41):
most people, I find the waysociety is run now it's like
quick, quick, quick, quick, run,run, run, run.
But it's not.
Let me just chill, let me seewhat's going on here, you know.
Amelia (42:51):
So yeah, I idea of you know immediate satisfaction.
We know we want something rightnow instead of really putting
our time into it and Again, likeI mentioned earlier, sitting
back and observing and taking itin.
You mentioned Establishingtrust, and that kind of leads me
into my next question how doyou establish trust and build
connections with your subjects,especially when you're
(43:16):
documenting these sensitivetopics?
Kamal (43:17):
I think that's that's, that's intuition, that's life
experience, that's Compassion,empathy.
You know Compassion, empathy,you know that's.
Yeah, you got to take your time.
You can't like come in thereand just start shooting away.
You got to like introduceyourself to people.
(43:37):
I've become very good at like I.
It's, it's like a.
To ask someone can I take yourpicture is so natural to me.
There's no level of like.
Like in the beginning, it'slike that you don't know if you
can.
Now it's just like hey, can Itake a picture?
No, okay, cool, like I don'teven take it personally, like
it's like it would have been agreat photo, but I get it.
You know whereas.
But nine times out of tenpeople say yes and you get the
(44:00):
access and trust because, likeyou know, many people tell me
thank you because I asked Likejust saying, hey, may I take
your photo?
I think you look cool, or hey,I'm doing this project, or, and
they go really me.
I'm like yeah, you look at like, and just having that friendly
I'm, I am moved.
So that's the other part.
I'm not just taking it just totake it like.
I'm looking at you, I'm like,oh no, this is, I have to do
(44:20):
this, and I think that Energythey, I believe the subjects
feel and so I think, um, yeah,it's, it's a part of just like
talking with people and notbeing afraid.
Don't let this camera Block youfrom having experiences with
people.
There's been again, like I saidearlier, there's been moments
(44:43):
where I'm like this is anamazing photo, but out of
respect for this moment, I'm notgoing to do it.
I have had moments wherefriends and family where, like,
I have my camera and somethingemotional might be happening and
I'm like my discernment tellsme, nah, it's just not worth
Making them feel Disrespected ortaken advantage of or whatever
(45:06):
are uncomfortable, you know.
So I've just that's somethingthat's really important to me
and it's just connecting withpeople saying, and I think, like
I always use the like karatekid, like the wax on, wax off
thing that he told Danny's sonDaniel son is like, yeah, like
when you're going traveling theworld and you're getting used to
meeting people and going tothese Hostels and it teaches you
(45:27):
how to connect with people.
So I think that really helps me.
It's almost the same thing.
It's like I'm open, I'm cool,I'm non-judgmental.
That's another thing.
Non-judgmental is the way to go.
Like there's so many momentslike I've been to an anti.
I went to a few anti-vaxrallies and you know, outside
(45:49):
looking and I would think, oh,this isn't what I want to go to,
but, and you know, but it was abeautiful challenge because,
like, I was seeing things that Ididn't necessarily agree with,
but I gave them the same respectI would give anybody else and,
as an artist, for me personallythat's important because I know
there's situations where I mightnot fit Aesthetic that people
(46:10):
are comfortable with and I'vebeen judged by what I seem like
or what preconceived notionsthey have of me, and I hate it.
So it's like you're almostpaying it forward as a
photographer by showing peoplethat respect and I think what
you put out in his words.
You get back and I've had somebeautiful experiences Based off
that, you know so, and Icontinue to to do most of the Um
(46:35):
.
The photographers I've learnedfrom they've all kind of had the
same kind of thought process.
The ones that get those photoswe like how did you get that?
It's like we're, how did you?
And it's like a conversation.
I talked to them, I spent timewith the family.
I live with them for two weeks.
I helped them with their like.
It's like you have to reallyimmerse yourself, and that's the
part you got to really you gotto dive in there's no, there's
(46:57):
no cheat, cheat code therereally isn't like you got to go
All in.
If you want to do somethingspecial, I believe so yeah.
Amelia (47:10):
Well, and that's what sets you apart from an artist in
traditional media you know yourstoryteller.
As an artist, what role do youthink our infotography play in
fostering empathy andunderstanding among diverse
communities?
Kamal (47:30):
It's a great way to see the other side or to see things
you might not understand, likeand there's.
There is a difference betweenexperiencing something and
looking at something, but I dothink that it helps.
It's a part of the process.
Like for me, movies.
Growing up in New Jersey, likeno one, we did travel a little
(47:52):
bit like we went, but mainlywent to South Jersey.
We went to Vegas every once ina while and I was like whoa, you
know like, but we weren'thopping on planes left and right
, you know.
So travel wasn't a part of whatwe, what I was used to.
Movies was my way out.
Movies was like whoa, and mydad used to take me to movies
(48:14):
all the time and I think that'swhy we're seeing this world of
like whoa, they got those kindof toys or they are in that
place or they're traveling.
In that it was like an eye intosomething and it's not the same
as doing it, but it gives youto, it does something for your
visualization and like settingthe tone, I guess, or some sort
of thing.
So I think the same thing istrue of photography, as movies
(48:35):
were to me.
It gives you an opportunity tolearn about things you might not
understand, and that's thething.
But it also becomes a questionof the individual, that is, you.
I think people need to seekthese things too, because
they're not going to find you.
You know, it's very rare thatyou just hop and find something
(48:56):
that's going to open your mind,like you have to kind of have an
open mind and be curious.
The curiosity starts and thenyou start finding books, you
start finding movies, you startreaching out and diving into
yourself and reading books andthings of that nature, and I
think it's like the seeker willfind the thing that can help
grow their mentality and empathyand understanding.
(49:19):
So it's almost like once youmake a choice, there's infinite
things in the world that canhelp broaden your mind.
So I think photography is likeit's an opportunity for someone
that's already made a choice,you know, versus it being
something.
If you're not ready, you're notgoing to see it.
I can.
I've shown books to people thathave changed my life and I've
(49:40):
seen them get it and they goflip, flip, flip, nothing.
I'm like, and I and I'm like,how could you not stop and look
at that photo?
You know, and they're my oh,who's cool.
Drops the book and goes, youknow, and I'm like not to take
that personally, but it's likeit shows me that if you're not
seeking that, you're not goingto see it.
So I think it again.
I think it provides anopportunity to create empathy,
(50:04):
but it doesn't make peopleempathetic, you know.
I think so, yeah.
Amelia (50:09):
Now you've spoken about your new book, black Astronaut,
a little bit, and it exploresthe nationwide revolution
ignited by the pandemic andGeorge Floyd's passing, as you
mentioned.
What inspired you to documentthis particular moment in
history and what message orimpact do you hope that this
book is going to have on it, onits readers?
(50:31):
Great question.
Kamal (50:34):
Great question.
Yeah, I would say similar, likeagain seeing all those learning
so many photography books ofcivil rights movement, the
hippie movement, that, the peacemovement, the peace revolution,
the women's revolution, allthat we're like a lot of the
books that really I really waslike, I felt, I felt like I was
(50:54):
learning, I felt like it wasgiving me an eye into something
and then, from an artisticperspective, I was, you know,
actually seeing how it was doneversus what Instagram will show
you, like real photography, youknow, and I feel like, once that
you know, everything happened,like you know, george Floyd, and
again, the emotion that we allfelt when we watched that video,
(51:15):
a different level of pain thatI've never really experienced in
that way, given that type ofsituation.
And it was a wake up call and Ididn't know I was going to make
a book out of it.
It was just I knew that Ineeded to do my part and I said
this to a friend it's like, andI remember at that time, so many
(51:38):
people wanted to do more butthey didn't know what they can
do, especially with lockdowns,and it's like, what can I do?
I don't know what to do.
Like, I can post, I can sendmoney?
I can, and it's and I get thatbecause it can be difficult.
You can't just change somethingwith a blink of an eye.
It's like it takes work.
So the fact that I was aphotographer and I actually
could do something, I didn'ttake that for granted.
So it was like for all myfriends that wanted to do
(52:01):
something but couldn't all thepeople that aren't here anymore,
that are living through us andand, and all the people that are
coming down the pike that needto understand what happened, is
this moment in time, like I was,that motivated me to get out
there and do it?
And it was again.
It was just pure rawness of themoment and complete just in
(52:21):
like completely tunnel vision ofmaking sure I do my best and
not taking anything for granted.
And, yeah, and it became a book.
You know, I realized maybemaybe a year and a half of
taking photos and seeing that itwas something was happening,
(52:42):
because you don't know you'retaking photos and for me, you
don't really know if you haveanything that's worth that you
know, it's just kind of like,okay, let's see.
But then it was just.
Images were just speaking sopowerfully and I was like, nah,
you, this is something and I wasso thankful that I chose to
wait, also because there's a lotof books that came out by the
(53:05):
end of that year, like 2020,into 2021, 2022, they were
already like published and nowand I'm like it's not over yet
there's so many other thingsthat are going on, especially
like the women's movement, likethere was so many things that
are happened that I'm happy Iwas able to incorporate into the
book, because I really wantedto be about this bigger picture
(53:29):
of everything that America istrying to say, and I didn't
think it was, of course, thepandemic and George for like
night at it, but we're stillfiguring stuff out.
You know, I could still beworking on that book if I wanted
to, but I felt like the timewas right At that point, like
about in three years in, andyeah, it's been, yeah, it's been
(53:53):
a very, very meaningful journey.
I would say something that Idefinitely like request Supreme
was a beautiful book and thatwas again, that was me just
living my life.
That was about me and drew,finding my piece.
This was about showing up forall the people that are
(54:14):
responsible for all thebeautiful things I have today.
You know the freedom that Ihave today, and it was like it
was my way to give back.
Honestly, it was my way to likerisk my life because I knew it
was bigger than me and to seewhere it's today.
You know hasn't come out yet,but just seeing the great things
that have happened in betweenyou know, and the opportunities
(54:36):
that has opened in theconversations, and I really
really cannot wait to it's outand I can have further dialogue
with people, because this hasbeen so close to my heart.
I've seen the book a million,trillion times, so it's like the
images are very, very close tome to a point where I don't even
have perspective of themanymore.
It's like you know.
So I really can't wait to seepeople's, to get some feedback
(54:59):
on it, because I think it's avery great opportunity to
reflect on those times.
But also, through thatreflection, I believe it creates
the possibility of likethinking forward about where you
want to go, and that's one ofthe reasons why I chose the
concept black astronaut atversus it being just a book
(55:19):
about America and crisis orsomething that's more along the
lines of if you know what it isas soon as you read the title, I
wanted to create a conceptwithin it.
So we continue to realize weneed to go forward.
And the whole concept is blackastronaut, because when I felt
like I left my apartment whenyou had COVID in the air, so you
(55:41):
didn't trust the air, you knowand then America seemed like a
brand new place, that didn'tmake any sense, Like I felt like
I was in a new world, likepeople are running right and I'm
like what?
What happened to the America?
I knew, and if you think aboutan astronaut, what they, when
they go into the moon orwherever they're going in space,
everything around them istrying to destroy them.
(56:02):
Everything around them isunfamiliar.
That suit lets them go into verydangerous places and be okay,
and I felt like that's what Ihad to become to take those
photos and to create thisproject.
So, and I'm continuing to goforward and everything I do, and
I want that for everyone elselike because I feel we all deal
with stuff like that.
We all are in uncomfortablesituations where all like, like
(56:25):
in places that might beunfamiliar or places that are
trying to take advantage of usor whatever it might be, and we
need to be strong, we need to bevigilant, we need to be
realized who we are and knowthat nothing can stop you as
long as you remember who you areand believing in stuff, and
that's the deeper concept of thebook.
So that's my hope that peopleget from it reflection and
(56:48):
inspiration to grow and flyforward.
Amelia (56:52):
I think that is a beautiful concept and I am so
excited for you.
Where can our listeners findyou online and where can they
preorder black astronaut?
Kamal (57:03):
Awesome.
Well, the easiest way I wouldsay it will my Instagram page.
I have all the links, they'reall in there, but my answer I am
come all x.
So I am K a m a l x, that's myInstagram, and.
But if you also go to Amazonright now, you can preorder I'm
not sure when this will come outor just order it on Amazon.
If you type in black astronaut,come all x, it pops right up.
(57:25):
If you just put put in blackastronaut, it pops up.
But then come all x, it pops up.
You'll see me but astronautsuit with a big yellow x and
that's me and you found it.
And yeah, any support, any, itgoes such a long way, such a
long way.
This is my first majorpublication, the first major
self published.
This one is with publisher outin UK, so this is a whole
(57:49):
different level of more books tosell and it's a beautiful
challenge.
But it's also beautiful becauseI think it's into the
possibility of being into morehomes, more people, more
experiences, more conversation.
And anyone out there that'scurious and would like to check
it out of support, I wouldgreatly, greatly appreciate it.
(58:10):
You definitely won't be wastingyour time or your money, for
sure.
Amelia (58:15):
And I will make sure to link to your Instagram and to
Amazon for you to purchase it onthis episode.
So I have one last question foryou.
Ask everyone this Do you have afavorite quote or any words of
wisdom that you would like toleave behind for our listeners?
Kamal (58:35):
Favorite quote man, that's a who.
Well, there's so many becauseI'm thinking of Prince, love
Prince, but I can't think.
I know, I don't want to messPrince quotes up, but I'm also
thinking of Muhammad Ali,because Muhammad Ali I draw a
lot of inspiration from also,and it's quote it's quick
(58:57):
because I don't remember thewhole thing, but he literally
says I'm the greatest.
He says that and I'm not usingthat in a way like oh, I'm the,
but more so, like that level offaith in yourself and that level
of dealing with the worldagainst you and not being afraid
and standing up for what youbelieve in.
(59:18):
That's what I pull from when Iread that I'm the greatest.
When I'm seeing him say that andI'm seeing him be the
heavyweight champion in theworld at that time period, all
the things he's dealing with andspeaking out and being just one
of the greatest leaders,fighters of all time, it's like
whoa, you know.
It's just like I pull from thatand I think about that when I'm
down, when I'm even, when I'mworking out, if I'm like the
(59:39):
entire, I imagine like, oh,muhammad Ali say, man, he would
be like get up, you're the great, you know.
So like.
I always keep that in my mindof just like keeping me going
and it's a good mantra and yeah,it's a positive vibe.
And then there's some Princestuff, but I can't think of it
right now, but Prince is amazing.
So check out Prince.
Amelia (59:59):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining me today.
I am incredibly grateful foryou in this conversation.
It's been just really amazingand I'm really grateful that you
took time out of your day to bewith me.
Kamal (01:00:13):
Oh, thank I this.
I genuinely enjoyed all of this.
Your questions were amazing,connecting with you.
I love your ability to toconverse and to share, and you
have such an interesting storyyourself.
I wish you all the best andcontinued success and everything
you're doing.
All the listeners you guys havean amazing person you guys are
listening to.
(01:00:33):
Thank you to be here and, yeah,all of all of you.
Welcome to Voices of Inspiration.
I'm your host, amelia Olde, andtoday you're in for a
captivating conversation withKamal X, a self-taught
documentary photographer basedin Brooklyn, new York.
Kamal's journey is a testamentto the power of storytelling
through the lens of a camera.
In 2015, kamal made alife-altering decision to travel
(00:21):
the world, dedicating thisadventure to his best friend,
who lost his battle to coloncancer.
This personal commitmentignited his creative spirit,
shaping his unique style ofrevealing the hidden narratives
of humanity, often overlooked.
Kamal gained significantrecognition in 2020 during the
Black Lives Matter protest inOakland, california and
(00:44):
Washington DC.
His impactful images werefeatured in the New York Times
and a series of beautifulOakland DC earned him second
place in lens cultures black andwhite photography awards.
In 2021, kamal was prominentlyfeatured in Apple's Hometown
campaign celebrating blackphotographers across America.
He also self-published hisdebut book, a Quest Supreme,
(01:06):
chronicling five years of travelto over 40 countries in search
of inner peace.
Stay tuned for Kamal's upcomingrelease, Black Astronaut on
October 24, 2023, a visualmasterpiece capturing a
nationwide revolution sparked bythe pandemic and George Floyd's
tragic passing.
Join me as we explore Kamal'sremarkable journey in the
(01:28):
powerful stories he's capturedthrough his lens.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(01:59):
I'm really grateful that youtook time out of your busy
schedule to be with me and toshare your story and to talk
about your journey.
Kamal (02:20):
Yeah, I'm definitely so thankful to be here, excited,
inspired even, because I thinkit's just beautiful connecting
with new people and havingmeaningful conversation, because
you, just you, really you knowwe're creating right now and you
never know where it's going togo, but I really feel like
something amazing and beautifulis going to happen.
You know, I agree.
Thank you so much.
Amelia (02:40):
So your journey into photography started as a tribute
to your late friend.
Can you tell us more about howthat decision unfolded and how
it shaped your creative path?
Yeah, it was very.
See, I lost.
My best friend Drew.
We were, I think, 26.
I'm 37 now and he he passedaway from colon cancer.
(03:10):
And I remember when that, duringthis whole process to chemo and
everything, it was such a wedidn't understand what any of it
really meant.
You know, at that age it wasjust like you'll be fine, like
being supportive and being greatfriends in the way we could,
but we didn't know the severity,we didn't think he would pass
away, basically.
So I remember it was aThanksgiving and something made
me come early.
I was living in LA and he's inNew Jersey.
(03:30):
Something made me come backearly.
Like I was just like let mejust spend some extra time.
I didn't even know he was inthe hospital.
And I got there and he was inthe hospital and he was.
When I went to see him helooked you know nothing like who
I, you know, used to seeing andI realized immediately how
(03:54):
serious this was.
But at the same time I stilldidn't think you know, I'm
pulling from the pull through,you know.
So when he unfortunately, youknow, transitioned, my world
completely collapsed and at thatpoint I was a life coach and a
personal trainer living in LA, Iwas working at Equinox actually
(04:15):
, and I had my own little thingon the side I was doing and I
remember I just literallydropped everything.
I said I had nothing to give toanyone.
This was such a catastrophicexperience and it was so weird
because I didn't even know howto feel about it.
Like you watch movies, you hearabout things, you see other
people, but I guess at that agethat level of that type of
(04:38):
situation is just such a even abest friend at that, you know,
not an associate or so, but abest close friend.
I remember I didn't know how tonavigate it.
So I'm happy that I made thechoice to just drop everything,
because I just I don't know whatelse I would have done and what
I did was he loved that I was afree person.
So for him he was actuallyclaustrophobic, is the funniest
(05:00):
person I've ever met in my life.
And he was claustrophobic,couldn't get on elevators.
It was such a thing.
When we went to clubs it was sofunny but like no planes,
nothing, you know.
So I was at that point I livedin LA.
I moved to Atlanta before, sohe looked at me as like this
freedom person like yo, I can'tbelieve that you just get up and
go and find a place and find ajob.
It was just such a he reallyloved that about me and to me it
(05:23):
was just me being normal, fastforward.
When that, when that happened, Isaid what can I do for my
brother that he liked about methat I can just push, at times a
thousand, and it was travel.
So at that point I just decidedto get a bag go to and I never
backpacked.
I never knew anyone in myfamily that did it.
It wasn't like my friends.
This is a completely foreignconcept to go backpacking.
(05:46):
And I went to Cambodia, thailandand Laos for 40 days and life
shifting experience, to say theleast, extremely uncomfortable.
Didn't know what I was doing.
I remember I came out therewith like so much luggage.
It was crazy, like I had thisbig, big bag and when I was with
this group there was like heyman, how are you going to like
get new stuff?
(06:07):
It was like, and I had like allmy gear, sneakers.
I was.
I didn't know how to be atraveler, you know, I was
dressing like the way where I'mfrom and it was a life shifting
experience and I grew so muchand I became like I just kept
going and that one trip ended upbeing off and on, traveling for
five years to over 40 differentcountries.
(06:30):
And between that time I was, Ithink, I was in Ecuador and I
met a new friend named Anna andwe were sleeping on a volcano
and what was happened?
And we were taking pictures ofthe erupting volcano that was
across from us or something likethat, and I was taking a
picture with a 4S and she waslike.
(06:51):
She asked her what do you shootwith?
Because she assumed I hadanother camera in my bag.
I said this, this little 4S.
And she had a real DSLR.
So she's looking at me like uh,okay, you're going to have to
change that around.
You've been traveling the world, you've seen all these
countries, you're seeing this.
And then she took one.
She had a tripod and everything.
She was with another friendnamed Miles.
They both were photographersand they showed me the picture
(07:14):
from.
It was like Canon 6D and Iremember I was like whoa.
She was like, yeah, this isfull frame, like oh.
So I remember looking at thecamera like that picture versus
my picture was whoa.
So I immediately brought a NikonD33, 3300, I think it's called
and started shooting and thatstarted to just taking pictures
(07:37):
as I was traveling, I wasfinding healing, I was finding
purpose.
I still, you know, I'm tryingto deal with the grief, and I
was like getting it out throughexperiences and meeting people
and getting to know myself on adifferent level, and all this
was happening with a camera inmy hand, so it kind of like
naturally came out of, not outof nowhere, but it was very
(07:58):
unexpected.
It was very unexpected andpeople started giving me
compliments like yourphotography is pretty good.
I'm like, ah, you know, I'mthinking Instagram, algorithm
stuff.
I'm not thinking, oh, I'm anartist, I'm just like a person
trying to, you know, getsponsors and things of that
nature, and I remember it was afriend of mine when I was living
in New York.
(08:19):
She saw my place.
She was like, yo, you're anartist, and I was like I
accepted it.
She was a teacher, and I waslike you know what?
Maybe there's something too.
This people keep bringing it up, and I just kind of like leaned
in and things started openingup.
It wasn't easy, though, but I,I it was like it gave travel
purpose, it gave the journey.
(08:40):
I was on purpose and I knew Iwas seeing things that most
people don't see, and it gave me, it gave me a amazing feeling
to be able to bring people intomy world Cause that like, if I
say I've been to 40, 50countries, like that's, I
appreciate that, but a personthat doesn't, they're just like
oh, what does it mean if I can'tshow you?
(09:01):
So for me, having that mediumhas always been a great way of
expression and it's grown into abeautiful thing, and why we're
here today you know that's soincredible.
One thing I want to say back to about your friend is I
think I want to commend you forbeing there for your friend,
because my husband and I wewe're on the board of a
(09:22):
nonprofit Cancer for College andthey give college scholarships
to cancer survivors and a lot ofthe scholars that we talked to
and that we've talked over theyears.
One of the things that they sayis when they were diagnosed
with cancer, you know, whateverage they were, friends tend to
kind of fall off the radar.
(09:42):
Friends kind of disappear, notbecause they don't care, but
because they don't know how todeal with it.
They don't know how to supportthem, they don't understand it,
and so the easiest way for themis to kind of just like you know
, close off and not be there,and so I really commend you for
(10:06):
being there.
I think that that is anincredibly important you know,
as a self taught photographer,what have been some of the
challenges or what were some ofthe challenges that you faced
along the way of learningphotography.
Kamal (10:22):
Um, I would say I think it's a challenge for anybody,
but I think it's finding yourown voice, finding what you
really care about.
There's a couple photographersI remember like when you start
out, you like taking pictures ofeverything, right, and then you
don't really Upload much of it,are you upload a bunch of it
and it doesn't.
(10:42):
It's not good enough to showanybody, so it's taking up
memory.
And I remember thisphotographer was like why are
you taking pictures of thingsthat don't move you?
It's like, hmm, that'sinteresting things that move me.
So like I kind of, as I startedgoing to things that moved me,
it kind of pushed me into thespace of, you know, documentary
style street photography.
(11:03):
Now, the challenge with that isthat on Instagram and social
media, which is where I kind ofwas just trying all this stuff
out, which is most, all mostcreatives use that medium.
That's not with the algorithmreally likes, you know, like
it's more about.
Take a picture of you in frontof Eiffel Tower wearing a nice
outfit, go eating at arestaurant, but in terms of
(11:25):
taking street photographyshowing what you're seeing and
just being more, I would say,artistic, I would say that
doesn't normally correlate.
You know, if I do a picture ofme, I Get a bunch of you know,
and it feels good.
But then when you put thatother thing, that's what you
really like, what you saw, it'snot a lot, it's a lot of
crickets off to times and, Ithink, learning.
(11:49):
Thankfully, I kept researchingand researching and finding
older not older, but like moreexperienced photographers and
seeing, like, the differencebetween and there's a difference
between, let me say, a socialmedia so yeah, social media
photographer, which is no shadeor hate on that versus someone
(12:09):
that's like in the industryPhotography right, there's two
different worlds.
They don't really collide theway people think.
And once I realized that, I waslike Okay, you're not, this
isn't you.
This space on Instagram justdoesn't fit your aesthetic.
And when I shifted it, it againhelp me find my voice.
And just choosing to stick tomy guns.
(12:31):
Because when you don't have aClass or school, when you have
Classmates and people can likeyou can talk to about these
things, you're really in thedark room, like, you're really
like is this good, is it right?
Do I know what I'm doing whenI'm talking?
And especially in the beginning, when I was meeting
photographers, they would talkto me with language I didn't
understand.
(12:51):
Like what do you shoot with?
I was like what, what am Isupposed to say when you say
that to me?
I don't even know what thatmeans now.
Obviously I'm well more versedin it, but I would say finding
voice and and doing it wasdifficult.
But I appreciate it was doingthe work, meaning Learning all
the information, like gettinglike I have over 80 photography
(13:14):
books, like I started watchingall these documentaries and like
just interviews and just likeeven directors and seeing how to
create movies and Luckily Ihave always loved Film.
I just didn't realize it was mygift.
Like, even though becoming aphotographer was a surprise,
(13:35):
I've always kind of gravitatedtowards cameras, keeping
memories.
I watch a lot of movies, so Iguess it was kind of always
there and it just like the roadscollided in a great way.
But, um, yeah, I would say justlearning it on my own and being
confident and being, but it'salso, it was difficult, but it
also gave me, I think, an edgebecause I didn't go through Then
(14:00):
the normal route.
I would say I kind of havelearned to have a much thicker
skin.
I've learned to be very likethis, what I feel, that's what I
want to do.
I'm gonna do it like whereas Ithink sometimes Having so many
people to compare yourself tocan kind of limit you because
you won't kind of think foryourself Sometimes in terms of
(14:20):
finding your own way, you know.
So it's been difficult, butit's been beautiful.
At the same time.
I would say yeah.
Amelia (14:25):
I mean, I think that that is.
I mean, you're right on pointwith that Because social media,
we see this person and we seethat person and we're like, oh
well, they're doing it that way.
And they're doing it that way.
Maybe that's what I need to do,because they're successful, and
maybe I need to be just likethem and we lose ourselves and
we lose our own voice Along theway.
(14:46):
So I mean you're right on pointwith that.
How do you approach the processof storytelling through through
your photography?
Kamal (14:55):
doing.
Oh, I don't know, it's actuallya pretty heavy time.
It's a probably morecomplicated like.
It's Like I don't take picturesit's weird to say this, but
like I don't take pictures ofanything I haven't seen before.
Like it's, it's a process.
It's like if I'm feelingsomething, it like black
astronauts, the book is comingout right.
(15:16):
So obviously that's a littledifferent.
Because when George Floyd passedaway at Montarbery the pandemic
, women's rights, trump, allthat was happening Before that I
was sitting looking, learningabout photography, seeing what
happened in like the 70s, the60s, the 80s, going through
photography books.
Eli read all types ofphotographers, that especially
(15:38):
civil rights movement millionman in March, and I'm just
thinking to myself, while Iwould never get that opportunity
, like what was it?
It had to been.
It sucked to be having thosestruggles, but to be a
photographer during that time,to be able to take those photos
like America doesn't do thatanymore Like in terms of, from a
photography standpoint.
So in my mind, the intentionsbeen there, like I hope
(15:58):
something.
You don't want it to be bad,but you're like I'm a
photographer and I want todocument something that really
matters To the, to our country,in our history.
And so when it.
When that all happened, I knew Ihad to call.
I knew this was like I'm ready.
Like you know, there wasn't aoh, let's just do this.
I was.
I knew this is, this is amoment that I need to take
(16:20):
seriously.
I knew that I wanted to makesomething of this that matters
to myself, my friends, my familyand, hopefully, you know, other
people, and so I think the theprocess is a very well Thought.
Like the next project I'mworking on is another one that
I've been Just talking aboutwith friends, and it comes like
(16:42):
through me, versus it being like, oh, that's interesting, I want
to do it.
It's like a slow process andthat way I'm more emotionally
connected to the work, and Ithink when you're more
emotionally connected to whatyou're shooting, it shows in the
in the photography, versus ifyou're just taking pictures of
things.
It's like you might be reallygood at photography, so maybe
like you're artistically amazing, but like the feeling you might
(17:05):
miss, you know, and so that'skind of my, my process in terms
of yeah.
Amelia (17:14):
And the focus of your photography is on revealing
hidden truths of humanity.
Can you share an example of astory that you've captured that
really Resonates with you inthis regard?
Kamal (17:27):
Well, it's funny because we're kind of talking about it
one and a half and it's in this,the, the project, the black
astronaut project.
It's um.
There's a photo where it's awoman in an astronaut suit.
She's like been back, her hairis going down and she's looking
to the sky and in the back ithas a word saying don't be a
slave to the algorithm.
And within that photo there'salso, if you look closely,
(17:52):
there's going to, there's a lotof photos of iPhone.
What X is on them, like justcrossing them out, and the whole
idea is like when I was takingthose pictures and just like all
throughout America, whenAmerica was locked down, I was
risking it all, literally beforewe had the vaccine, before we
knew how dangerous the actualCOVID was.
We didn't know, and I rememberseeing all sides of the argument
(18:15):
because I was just veryopen-minded and I didn't want to
get one side of.
I went everywhere and what Inoticed was there was definitely
levels of you know, outragebased on we're supposed to be
outraged versus thinking aboutindependently, about what you
feel, what is actually going on,being able to listen, hear one
(18:39):
another, like I saw so muchdiscourse, fighting, yelling and
I'm just thinking to myselflike no one's talking with each
other, y'all talking about eachother, and I just I saw another
A documentary on Netflix, Ithink the social dilemma I think
it's called, or something likethat when he goes into how
phones are, like Getting ourminds, you know, and I was just
(19:01):
like man that's.
I want to say something aboutthis in my own way.
Like you have to kind of Unplugand and get into the world,
like because when you actuallygo into the world and talk to
people, connect With people, youknow it's from traveling, like
when you meet people, it's atotally different reality than
what you may see on your phone.
And and it's becoming more andmore prevalent that I think
(19:25):
people are being warped in Amore closed off reality and I
just want that was my way oflike, you know, making a
statement to make people youknow not make, but hopefully
inspire people to think,definitely to take a step back,
instead of always trying to havethe answer, always having to
(19:47):
check, like got it all together,like it's okay to not know,
it's okay to be unsure, it'sokay to take time to listen and
not have anything to say for achange, you know, like, and
that's kind of where I've beenwith a lot of things.
I just and that's one thing Ilove about photography it gives
me a moment to sit back andwatch and it can get very real,
emotional, but that's what makeslife worth living to me, you
(20:12):
know, like getting into thetruth and getting uncomfortable
in a good way, you know.
So that's one of those photos?
Amelia (20:18):
yeah, it's okay to sit back and to observe and to form
your own opinion versuseverything that you see on
social media or on television.
You're absolutely right.
Kamal (20:30):
And it goes kind of to what we were saying about the
photography in terms of you know, you take a picture.
If you look at a lot of art letme not say art, but like in
terms of photographers onlineI'll say you can start to see
the same kind of photos over andover again.
You'll start to see thispressure to fit into a box and
(20:51):
you may think that you're, thisis me.
But the question is, is it youIf you haven't taken the time to
sit back and really askyourself, like, how do I know
I'm?
Am I really so far out the boxor am I following something and
I haven't been in the worldenough to really be able to get
a real image of myself?
You know, so self-reflection isso important to me.
(21:11):
That's what helped me continueto be healing through the
process with my best friend, andyou know it's a powerful tool.
It's difficult, but it's apowerful tool for sure.
Amelia (21:21):
Yeah, you know, when you captured the 2020 Black Lives
Matter protest, what was it likebeing on the front lines of
such a historic movement and howdid that influence your
perspective as a photographer?
Kamal (21:36):
Extremely emotional, like I was saying.
It was there because,especially as being a Black man,
you know like there weremoments, especially tense
moments, between police andcivilians, with a very, a lot of
yelling, a lot of greatarguments being given, words of
just truth and honesty, cryinglike just.
(21:59):
And you're shooting theseevents.
I'm taking these pictures but Ireally want to be yelling with
them, you know.
So it's not.
It's a very confusing place tobe, but you're there, but you
want to.
You know the images.
That's my way of yelling,getting that image so it can
live on.
But I remember there wereplenty of times where I just
started crying as I was takingpictures.
(22:20):
You know, I remember the firsttime I went out, actually there
was a huge rally in SanFrancisco and there were, like
it was, a lot of people.
This is like in the beginning,when, like George Floyd just
happened and they were doing, ifyou remember, there was like a
lot of videos of like all thesepeople marching and this was
against the COVID lockdowns andthis was a very large gathering
(22:43):
and I remember I just startedcrying also because I was.
You know I was, and this is SanFrancisco does not have a huge
Black population.
Oakland's a little different,but like San Francisco doesn't.
So I remember standing outthere and I was one of the few
Black people, like in the area.
But the level of sincerity andI guess I don't know what to
(23:06):
call that, but just love I wasreceiving and it was very
authentic and real was veryuncomfortable for me but very
emotional too.
You know.
You can just feel that we allwere like we get it, you know,
or we're trying to get it, andyou know.
So it was very, very real.
It felt like every day and Iwas going out every day, every
(23:27):
night, around the clock, youknow, and it was never an easy
moment.
There was always something thatwas like a challenge.
There was always something Ineeded to question myself and
figure out and ask why do I wantto take that photo?
Is this worth?
There were some things I sawthat I think a lot of
photographers would have takenpictures of.
I felt like that wasn't right.
(23:48):
You know, like so it's also.
Discernment is also anotherthing and I think it ultimately
it taught me the importance ofbeing dedicated to what you're
trying to say.
You know, like, I think, people, often it takes a lot to really
find your voice, find your wayin anything, and I've never
(24:13):
dedicated that much time andphysical energy to anything and
I would have never thought beinga photographer was like this
physical thing like.
But you really do need to be inshape, like you're running,
your body needs to be flexible,you have to get, and I'm
six-five, so there's like a lotof times when I'm taking
pictures of people and theymight be shorter than me so I
have to get really low quickly,like there's so much that goes
(24:33):
into it.
So it just taught me thatphotography is a sport, you know
, and it's like you better be inshape if you really want to do
it.
And you got to go every day.
It's not something that you canjust like oh, I got my camera,
I'm gonna take some pictures.
Like this book took three years,you know, and the one before
that, quest Supreme, took five,you know.
(24:54):
So it's a very dedicated thing,but I love it.
So you kind of have to love itif you really want to.
I think excel in photographyit's something you can't cheat
it.
You cannot cheat it, you justcan't.
You don't have to buy expensiveequipment, you don't need to do
that, but the work you have toevery day you got to be like
(25:18):
zoned in to do something I thinkspecial.
Amelia (25:21):
Yeah, Absolutely.
Now you just mentioned QuestSupreme.
It documents your travels toover 40 countries, as you
mentioned earlier, in search ofthis inner piece.
What were some of the mosttransformative experiences
during your global journey?
Kamal (25:37):
Oh man, that's whoa, that's a lot.
Oh, wow, so many, so many.
Uh, oh, there's so many.
I remember it was one in thebeginning, there was so many,
but there was one when I was inThailand, the first trip, the
(25:58):
40-day trip, and we did the fullmoon party in Copenhagen.
I didn't even know that was onthe list of things to do.
So like I'm so remote I don'tknow anything about like I
remember, like because I waswith a tour group of young
people that were just like, so I, because I didn't know how to
backpack.
So I remember we will be like,hey, we're going to Cambodia.
(26:19):
I was like, okay, what partsthey're.
Like, oh, you don't know wherewe're going, I don't know
Everything wasn't surprised.
Like they would take me to the,the temples.
I'm like oh wow.
Like I didn't know, I wasn'tprepared, I just had really nice
clothes, that's it.
And we were.
So we went to the full moonparty.
I knew nothing about what thiswas.
They were telling me like, ohmy God, it's like a big fray,
(26:41):
even it's at night, in the fullmoon.
Like, wow, that sounds amazing.
I can't believe I'm doing this.
So I remember we did it and welike we're like the highlighter
clothes.
It was like, I think, seven ofus and this is like at the end
of this, like how I ended that40 day trip actually.
So I got to see some of thepeople I met in that very
beginning and it was just a veryloving, like fun, but just
(27:04):
embracing each other and withthe full moon and the beach and
the music and just I justremember feeling a sense of like
yo, this would have neverhappened if you never took a
step forward, if you neverstepped out of your comfort zone
.
You like you just met sevenpeople that you're going to be
friends with the rest of yourlife.
(27:24):
I am still friends with themall.
They're from all differentplaces you would have never not
in wherever you were living.
So just that level of seeinghow intention really affects,
like when you walk into thethings you want to do, how far
it can go.
Another one was this is reallysmall, but I was in Indonesia, I
(27:47):
was in Bali and there was theGile Islands and it's amazing.
I love the Gile Islands.
I did like 10 days there and Iremember at this time I was
asking people what does yourname mean?
I will walk up to people and Ireally enjoy meeting people and
I was like, what does your namemean?
Like I would really be curiousif you have interesting name
meanings most of the time.
I remember this one guy.
He was just like I don'tremember.
(28:09):
We were like on the beach atlike four o'clock in the morning
.
It was beautiful, the waves,and there was these random
couches on the beach and this isBali.
This is amazing, you know like,and it was like all of us all
around the same age is kickingit, talking about life, sharing
our struggles with not knowingwho we are parent pressure,
career pressure, relationshippressure but we all kind of like
(28:30):
let it out that night and justlike it was like a freeing
moment.
And one of the guys that Iasked that to he's like I don't
know what my name means and itwas really like he was in his
mind about it.
So the next day, next morning,we were leaving on a boat to go
to the main island, to get to gohome, and he's running.
It was like a movie.
He's like, come on, come on.
He's like I know what my namemeans and I can't remember what
(28:53):
it was, but it just, it was justsuch a beautiful moment because
it's like wow again, theseconnections, these moments that
you might not think nothing ofyour, your, your, your shifting
people's lives and they'reshifting yours at the same time.
It's such a, it's such abeautiful experience to be
traveling, and especially whenyou're, you know, doing things
(29:15):
outside of the comfort zone,outside of the tourist stuff,
really exploring yourself.
You know like it's.
It's immaculate, really it is.
Amelia (29:24):
Yeah, and I think that you're right like doing things
outside of the tourist stuff andthat's so important to me and
in stripping yourself of thethings that you're used to right
, like when my husband and I wehiked to Mount Everest Base Camp
five years ago.
And we didn't summit.
You know, we didn't do thesummit, we just went to base
camp, but that was that wassomething.
Kamal (29:45):
No, you were.
You said I'm going, that's an.
You did that part.
That's already like 2% ofhumanity.
That's amazing.
Wow, what was that like?
Amelia (29:55):
Yeah, it was the most difficult thing that I'd ever
done, both physically andmentally, because and it wasn't
even necessarily strippingyourself of the material items
that you're used to it was moreso for me.
Now I ended up at the end I hada lot of health problems.
(30:16):
Afterwards, it turns out, I hadasthma and I didn't even know
when I was an asthma attack.
The whole time I was there andhad no idea.
Like by the time I got home myface was like a big tomato.
It was just me and red becauseof the altitude, but for me it
was more so.
Have an idle time in my mindright, like now I have time to
(30:39):
think about things, now I havetime to write things down and to
like really be with myself, andsometimes we're not always
comfortable with that right.
We don't want that because wekeep ourselves so busy, because
we don't want to think aboutsome things, and so, and
actually I don't think I've evereven talked about that portion
of the trip.
I've spoken about the tripnumerous times but I've never
(31:01):
really shared that.
That was the piece that reallyalmost like oh, now I can't.
You know you don't have youriPad or your phone in bed to
scroll TikTok at night or youknow, or a lot of your friends
(31:22):
or family members around you.
I mean, you're with a lot ofstrangers and we made friends
and we had an amazing,incredible time, really
transformative time.
But it definitely gave you timeto think and I think some of
those trips, like what you'retalking about, it does.
It makes you think about thingsthat you wouldn't have if you
(31:43):
were home.
Kamal (31:44):
Yeah, definitely.
And it can get very like yousaid.
It can get very uncomfortable,like it's not.
It wasn't a beauty show for me,like those five years there was
some tough, tough times, plentyof times where I wanted to just
leave.
I remember one time I called mymom.
I was like I don't like thisanymore, like it was too
difficult culturally, thingsthat worked at home and I've
(32:07):
always been a social person.
I had to learn how to becomesocial internationally, because
it's a different way ofcommunication, it's a different,
it's different.
So I didn't know.
So I'm doing my Jersey thing andthe Jersey thing ain't working
and I'm thinking they don't likeme because something wrong,
they're judging me.
And I remember my mom was likeyo, just you paid all that money
, have a good time, stop tryingto be people's friends, just do
(32:32):
you.
And when I did that, to mysurprise, all of a sudden I
became.
I met so many people and Irealized it was me, it wasn't
them, it wasn't the world aroundme, it was me trying to fit
Well, not, I don't know what, Iwas trying to fit in, but just
focusing on the wrong part.
You come all the way out there.
It's not about them, it's aboutyou.
(32:52):
And once you make it about you,naturally them becomes a
co-created space, versus tryingto live through just the people
you meet.
It needs to be like a littlebit of both.
So it's challenging but it'sbeautiful at the same time.
Amelia (33:09):
Now you were in 2021,.
You were featured in Apple'shometown campaign Celebrating
black photographers acrossAmerica.
How did this recognition impactyour artistic vision and career
?
Kamal (33:21):
Oh, it was a beautiful push.
Oh man, that was the wake upcall.
That's the one I remember.
I was driving, I was driving to, I was driving somewhere and I
got the email and I'm like isthis real?
Cause it was like Apple.
I'm like, come on, come on,yeah, who's trying to get my
(33:42):
information?
And then I remember she waslike, yeah, to send you, you
decided NDA to move forward.
I was like this is real.
Amelia (33:51):
Okay.
Kamal (33:52):
So I had to park the car.
I was like, okay, this isreally, you know so, and I
remember it was like it was gametime.
It wasn't like, oh, you got twomonths to figure it out and it
was like you need to.
You got we have a meeting inlike a week or like three days.
You need to have your wholeconcept ready.
You have, we're going to giveyou the tools to use.
You can't use your equipment,you can't use random.
(34:15):
They were just saying so manythings I couldn't use Like.
You just have to basically getto the, just a camera phone and
your subject.
That's all you can do andyou're going not against.
But it is like a competition toa degree you don't want to.
You know you got otherphotographers in different
places and at that point Ididn't know how many, I didn't
know like the number, I didn'tknow whether more people in the
(34:36):
Bay Area, I didn't know if itwas gonna, I didn't know.
So I Just I love the challengeof it and it was such a
beautiful not beautiful but IDon't know like it was like game
time, like it was like, and youeither step up to the plate or
you get scary and you drop theball and I kind of really do.
(34:56):
Well, when the odds are againstme, like stacked, and I think
you know, and they didn't, and Ididn't know it was gonna be
billboards, anything orcommercials, like they didn't
say any of that, it was likethis could happen, but we'll see
.
They didn't even make it seemlike it would even be chosen,
like we gotta see what you doand then We'll make a decision.
So when it became, they gotaccepted and then, you know, it
(35:18):
went online, it went tobillboards, it was on the Super
Bowl.
One of the photos was in theSuper Bowl commercial.
It was like yo, so again, someof the stuff I was saying
earlier about, like you, youjust have to really believe in
yourself and not be afraid to doyour voice and take will have
your voice.
Because even in the PhotographyI took, like you know, I didn't
(35:39):
want to do anything that wassimilar to anybody else.
You know, and I remember when Iwas telling them my concepts
they were like, okay, I mean,well, you know, we'll see.
But I knew it was like itwasn't necessarily what they
might have wanted to hear.
Well, I don't know that, but Ifelt that way.
But they were very supportiveand beautiful people.
I love everyone over there and,yeah, I it was.
(36:00):
It was a great growth spurt, Iwould say.
And after you do something likethat, there's a couple of
pressures not one.
You do feel good about yourself, it opens a lot of doors, and
but also it's like, okay, now,what you know, what are you
gonna do now?
It's like, how do you push theenvelope as a creative, as an
artist, how do you?
(36:21):
What's the next level?
Oh, you know, and that's thewhere I'm at, that's one of the
more conversations that havemore consistently.
And now I really understandthis part of artistry.
When you've gotten out of theBeginner stage, so to speak, and
you're like, in your career,you've done some things that you
really are proud of, and it'slike, okay, what?
How do you push the envelope?
(36:42):
How do you continue to recreate?
Do you recreate?
Do you go a different lane?
It's such a very it's, it's,it's, it's a, it's a thing, it's
a thing and it's um, IUnderstand it and I think the
deeper I get into the, the moreI have appreciation for other
artists, and especially the onesthat have had longevity, the
(37:04):
ones that have continued to stayconsistent, the ones that
continue to grow.
I think growing is like you have.
Again, you got to put the timeand you got to put the effort in
and so, yeah, that Appleexperience Really opened my eyes
to just what I can do and alsobeing ready for any moment that
(37:25):
comes my way, like I will neverbe afraid of.
I wasn't afraid of that event,but like it, at least it wasn't
in my head.
Now it was like I had real.
I Played that out and it wentvery well and I try to.
You know, I just keep thatmentality moving forward.
The best is I can anyway.
Amelia (37:44):
I think when we do progress in our careers or our
passions, Oftentimes it's usgetting in our own head right
when we went out on the light.
We're like Get you know whatthey say imposter syndrome like
well, do I?
Really belong in this space,like is this really for me?
Am I really good enough and I?
I think that oftentimes it'sjust us getting in our own head.
Kamal (38:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely Trust.
It's a part of the process.
But you got like remember.
Like again, don't be a slave tothe algorithm.
Like don't let any likeremember who you are.
Like remember who you are.
And I always tell myselfWhenever I'm feeling
uncomfortable, whatever I'm likequestion myself, be like
remember your story, bro,remember your reason.
(38:26):
Like I told you about my bestfriend, his birthday was March
7th minus March 5th.
I per one of the reasons I wearthis hat all the time is because
of the seven.
It's like he's constantly withme and it's like when you've
dealt with stuff like that, itmakes those things it's in other
people like secondary.
Like I'm not gonna let youdefeat me After I've triumphed
(38:47):
through these real things.
This is just this, isn't eitheryou make it a break.
It has been things I've.
I've had opportunities that I'dnot failed that, but it didn't
go the way I wanted.
You know there were bigopportunities, contest that I
would the finalists didn't workout.
I gave my all, but I won't letthat defeat me.
It's like it happens.
It's just a part of the game.
(39:07):
But just remember your reason,you know.
Remember why you're here.
Amelia (39:10):
Yeah, Now, the power of visual storytelling is immense.
How do you hope that yourphotography can contribute to a
better understanding of complexsocial issues?
Kamal (39:21):
Doing the work again, like really diving into things,
like I think, as a photographer,especially in today's culture
and I've only learned this fromthe from the older photographers
that I've connected with overthe years and followed from afar
.
They always say youngphotographers leaves to leave
too quick.
They say we go to scenes, wetake pictures and we're
(39:42):
sometimes what it was firstpeople out and it's like you
need to stay.
You never know you might missthat one shot, it might be just
one moment at the end of thatevent or wherever you're at.
Like don't be so quick andhasty, even in the Making
photography books, like nowadays, you know I think some
photographers are doing it likewithin a year.
(40:02):
It's like you didn't reallydive into that topic, it to take
, like this next one I'm doing,I'm Respecting this to take at
least four years, you know likeand I think, giving it that
level of respect of whateveryou're trying to say.
I think that's how you you makea statement, versus Looking at
things from just the top of thethe cover instead of really
(40:26):
going underneath and reallylearning about and showing
respect to who you're takingpictures of.
You know that was one of thereasons with black astronaut.
That made me that also motivateme, because I feel like a lot
of photos weren't realistic towhat was actually going on.
I think the photographers maybethey just didn't Understand the
, the emotions, like how I wascrying at the police line, like
(40:48):
maybe because I I reallyunderstand what's happening.
Maybe that gave me a differentI into the situation.
There was also times you knowwhere I was at different rallies
and I think, because I gotaccess, I got access they.
We recognized each other.
They knew what I was there for.
There was a trust there.
So I think the same thing goeswith any topic you go into and
(41:11):
that's based on everyphotographer, every moment.
It's like Do you, are you herejust to take photos?
Are you going to like be a partof this experience with the
subject?
Are you going to really dive inand show respect and gain their
trust?
You know, instead of takingphotos, you're actually like
what taking, like making photoswith the subject.
I think that's something that Ireally learned and that's
(41:35):
something I try to do, and Ithink that Translates
differently when you're seeingit, because it gives the honest
Something that might not be seen, you know something that might
have been missed, nuances thatare like, wow, you know, like
it's even like if people andmaybe you're not, someone's not
a photographer Like just thinkabout, like having interesting
(41:57):
conversations with people howmany people are with friends?
But because they don't kind ofgo into deeper topics or ask
different questions, they don'tknow a lot about that person.
But if you, you know, put,actually start to spend time and
turn the TV off, turn the phoneoff and Communicate, you might
wow, I didn't know you.
You know, it's the same thingwith artistry.
It's like taking your time,like just, and you'll find out
(42:19):
new things and and then it'llmake it.
It'll help in terms of the factthat so many people are trying
to do the same thing you'redoing, because now, you know,
photography, media, everyone'sin the game.
So how do you find your voice?
How do you find your voice?
How do you become?
How do you stand out?
And I think you stand out bydoing the work, because a lot,
(42:41):
most people, I find the waysociety is run now it's like
quick, quick, quick, quick, run,run, run, run.
But it's not.
Let me just chill, let me seewhat's going on here, you know.
Amelia (42:51):
So yeah, I idea of you know immediate satisfaction.
We know we want something rightnow instead of really putting
our time into it and Again, likeI mentioned earlier, sitting
back and observing and taking itin.
You mentioned Establishingtrust, and that kind of leads me
into my next question how doyou establish trust and build
connections with your subjects,especially when you're
(43:16):
documenting these sensitivetopics?
Kamal (43:17):
I think that's that's, that's intuition, that's life
experience, that's Compassion,empathy.
You know Compassion, empathy,you know that's.
Yeah, you got to take your time.
You can't like come in thereand just start shooting away.
You got to like introduceyourself to people.
(43:37):
I've become very good at like I.
It's, it's like a.
To ask someone can I take yourpicture is so natural to me.
There's no level of like.
Like in the beginning, it'slike that you don't know if you
can.
Now it's just like hey, can Itake a picture?
No, okay, cool, like I don'teven take it personally, like
it's like it would have been agreat photo, but I get it.
You know whereas.
But nine times out of tenpeople say yes and you get the
(44:00):
access and trust because, likeyou know, many people tell me
thank you because I asked Likejust saying, hey, may I take
your photo?
I think you look cool, or hey,I'm doing this project, or, and
they go really me.
I'm like yeah, you look at like, and just having that friendly
I'm, I am moved.
So that's the other part.
I'm not just taking it just totake it like.
I'm looking at you, I'm like,oh no, this is, I have to do
(44:20):
this, and I think that Energythey, I believe the subjects
feel and so I think, um, yeah,it's, it's a part of just like
talking with people and notbeing afraid.
Don't let this camera Block youfrom having experiences with
people.
There's been again, like I saidearlier, there's been moments
(44:43):
where I'm like this is anamazing photo, but out of
respect for this moment, I'm notgoing to do it.
I have had moments wherefriends and family where, like,
I have my camera and somethingemotional might be happening and
I'm like my discernment tellsme, nah, it's just not worth
Making them feel Disrespected ortaken advantage of or whatever
(45:06):
are uncomfortable, you know.
So I've just that's somethingthat's really important to me
and it's just connecting withpeople saying, and I think, like
I always use the like karatekid, like the wax on, wax off
thing that he told Danny's sonDaniel son is like, yeah, like
when you're going traveling theworld and you're getting used to
meeting people and going tothese Hostels and it teaches you
(45:27):
how to connect with people.
So I think that really helps me.
It's almost the same thing.
It's like I'm open, I'm cool,I'm non-judgmental.
That's another thing.
Non-judgmental is the way to go.
Like there's so many momentslike I've been to an anti.
I went to a few anti-vaxrallies and you know, outside
(45:49):
looking and I would think, oh,this isn't what I want to go to,
but, and you know, but it was abeautiful challenge because,
like, I was seeing things that Ididn't necessarily agree with,
but I gave them the same respectI would give anybody else and,
as an artist, for me personallythat's important because I know
there's situations where I mightnot fit Aesthetic that people
(46:10):
are comfortable with and I'vebeen judged by what I seem like
or what preconceived notionsthey have of me, and I hate it.
So it's like you're almostpaying it forward as a
photographer by showing peoplethat respect and I think what
you put out in his words.
You get back and I've had somebeautiful experiences Based off
that, you know so, and Icontinue to to do most of the Um
(46:35):
.
The photographers I've learnedfrom they've all kind of had the
same kind of thought process.
The ones that get those photoswe like how did you get that?
It's like we're, how did you?
And it's like a conversation.
I talked to them, I spent timewith the family.
I live with them for two weeks.
I helped them with their like.
It's like you have to reallyimmerse yourself, and that's the
part you got to really you gotto dive in there's no, there's
(46:57):
no cheat, cheat code therereally isn't like you got to go
All in.
If you want to do somethingspecial, I believe so yeah.
Amelia (47:10):
Well, and that's what sets you apart from an artist in
traditional media you know yourstoryteller.
As an artist, what role do youthink our infotography play in
fostering empathy andunderstanding among diverse
communities?
Kamal (47:30):
It's a great way to see the other side or to see things
you might not understand, likeand there's.
There is a difference betweenexperiencing something and
looking at something, but I dothink that it helps.
It's a part of the process.
Like for me, movies.
Growing up in New Jersey, likeno one, we did travel a little
(47:52):
bit like we went, but mainlywent to South Jersey.
We went to Vegas every once ina while and I was like whoa, you
know like, but we weren'thopping on planes left and right
, you know.
So travel wasn't a part of whatwe, what I was used to.
Movies was my way out.
Movies was like whoa, and mydad used to take me to movies
(48:14):
all the time and I think that'swhy we're seeing this world of
like whoa, they got those kindof toys or they are in that
place or they're traveling.
In that it was like an eye intosomething and it's not the same
as doing it, but it gives youto, it does something for your
visualization and like settingthe tone, I guess, or some sort
of thing.
So I think the same thing istrue of photography, as movies
(48:35):
were to me.
It gives you an opportunity tolearn about things you might not
understand, and that's thething.
But it also becomes a questionof the individual, that is, you.
I think people need to seekthese things too, because
they're not going to find you.
You know, it's very rare thatyou just hop and find something
(48:56):
that's going to open your mind,like you have to kind of have an
open mind and be curious.
The curiosity starts and thenyou start finding books, you
start finding movies, you startreaching out and diving into
yourself and reading books andthings of that nature, and I
think it's like the seeker willfind the thing that can help
grow their mentality and empathyand understanding.
(49:19):
So it's almost like once youmake a choice, there's infinite
things in the world that canhelp broaden your mind.
So I think photography is likeit's an opportunity for someone
that's already made a choice,you know, versus it being
something.
If you're not ready, you're notgoing to see it.
I can.
I've shown books to people thathave changed my life and I've
(49:40):
seen them get it and they goflip, flip, flip, nothing.
I'm like, and I and I'm like,how could you not stop and look
at that photo?
You know, and they're my oh,who's cool.
Drops the book and goes, youknow, and I'm like not to take
that personally, but it's likeit shows me that if you're not
seeking that, you're not goingto see it.
So I think it again.
I think it provides anopportunity to create empathy,
(50:04):
but it doesn't make peopleempathetic, you know.
I think so, yeah.
Amelia (50:09):
Now you've spoken about your new book, black Astronaut,
a little bit, and it exploresthe nationwide revolution
ignited by the pandemic andGeorge Floyd's passing, as you
mentioned.
What inspired you to documentthis particular moment in
history and what message orimpact do you hope that this
book is going to have on it, onits readers?
(50:31):
Great question.
Kamal (50:34):
Great question.
Yeah, I would say similar, likeagain seeing all those learning
so many photography books ofcivil rights movement, the
hippie movement, that, the peacemovement, the peace revolution,
the women's revolution, allthat we're like a lot of the
books that really I really waslike, I felt, I felt like I was
(50:54):
learning, I felt like it wasgiving me an eye into something
and then, from an artisticperspective, I was, you know,
actually seeing how it was doneversus what Instagram will show
you, like real photography, youknow, and I feel like, once that
you know, everything happened,like you know, george Floyd, and
again, the emotion that we allfelt when we watched that video,
(51:15):
a different level of pain thatI've never really experienced in
that way, given that type ofsituation.
And it was a wake up call and Ididn't know I was going to make
a book out of it.
It was just I knew that Ineeded to do my part and I said
this to a friend it's like, andI remember at that time, so many
(51:38):
people wanted to do more butthey didn't know what they can
do, especially with lockdowns,and it's like, what can I do?
I don't know what to do.
Like, I can post, I can sendmoney?
I can, and it's and I get thatbecause it can be difficult.
You can't just change somethingwith a blink of an eye.
It's like it takes work.
So the fact that I was aphotographer and I actually
could do something, I didn'ttake that for granted.
So it was like for all myfriends that wanted to do
(52:01):
something but couldn't all thepeople that aren't here anymore,
that are living through us andand, and all the people that are
coming down the pike that needto understand what happened, is
this moment in time, like I was,that motivated me to get out
there and do it?
And it was again.
It was just pure rawness of themoment and complete just in
(52:21):
like completely tunnel vision ofmaking sure I do my best and
not taking anything for granted.
And, yeah, and it became a book.
You know, I realized maybemaybe a year and a half of
taking photos and seeing that itwas something was happening,
(52:42):
because you don't know you'retaking photos and for me, you
don't really know if you haveanything that's worth that you
know, it's just kind of like,okay, let's see.
But then it was just.
Images were just speaking sopowerfully and I was like, nah,
you, this is something and I wasso thankful that I chose to
wait, also because there's a lotof books that came out by the
(53:05):
end of that year, like 2020,into 2021, 2022, they were
already like published and nowand I'm like it's not over yet
there's so many other thingsthat are going on, especially
like the women's movement, likethere was so many things that
are happened that I'm happy Iwas able to incorporate into the
book, because I really wantedto be about this bigger picture
(53:29):
of everything that America istrying to say, and I didn't
think it was, of course, thepandemic and George for like
night at it, but we're stillfiguring stuff out.
You know, I could still beworking on that book if I wanted
to, but I felt like the timewas right At that point, like
about in three years in, andyeah, it's been, yeah, it's been
(53:53):
a very, very meaningful journey.
I would say something that Idefinitely like request Supreme
was a beautiful book and thatwas again, that was me just
living my life.
That was about me and drew,finding my piece.
This was about showing up forall the people that are
(54:14):
responsible for all thebeautiful things I have today.
You know the freedom that Ihave today, and it was like it
was my way to give back.
Honestly, it was my way to likerisk my life because I knew it
was bigger than me and to seewhere it's today.
You know hasn't come out yet,but just seeing the great things
that have happened in betweenyou know, and the opportunities
(54:36):
that has opened in theconversations, and I really
really cannot wait to it's outand I can have further dialogue
with people, because this hasbeen so close to my heart.
I've seen the book a million,trillion times, so it's like the
images are very, very close tome to a point where I don't even
have perspective of themanymore.
It's like you know.
So I really can't wait to seepeople's, to get some feedback
(54:59):
on it, because I think it's avery great opportunity to
reflect on those times.
But also, through thatreflection, I believe it creates
the possibility of likethinking forward about where you
want to go, and that's one ofthe reasons why I chose the
concept black astronaut atversus it being just a book
(55:19):
about America and crisis orsomething that's more along the
lines of if you know what it isas soon as you read the title, I
wanted to create a conceptwithin it.
So we continue to realize weneed to go forward.
And the whole concept is blackastronaut, because when I felt
like I left my apartment whenyou had COVID in the air, so you
(55:41):
didn't trust the air, you knowand then America seemed like a
brand new place, that didn'tmake any sense, Like I felt like
I was in a new world, likepeople are running right and I'm
like what?
What happened to the America?
I knew, and if you think aboutan astronaut, what they, when
they go into the moon orwherever they're going in space,
everything around them istrying to destroy them.
(56:02):
Everything around them isunfamiliar.
That suit lets them go into verydangerous places and be okay,
and I felt like that's what Ihad to become to take those
photos and to create thisproject.
So, and I'm continuing to goforward and everything I do, and
I want that for everyone elselike because I feel we all deal
with stuff like that.
We all are in uncomfortablesituations where all like, like
(56:25):
in places that might beunfamiliar or places that are
trying to take advantage of usor whatever it might be, and we
need to be strong, we need to bevigilant, we need to be
realized who we are and knowthat nothing can stop you as
long as you remember who you areand believing in stuff, and
that's the deeper concept of thebook.
So that's my hope that peopleget from it reflection and
(56:48):
inspiration to grow and flyforward.
Amelia (56:52):
I think that is a beautiful concept and I am so
excited for you.
Where can our listeners findyou online and where can they
preorder black astronaut?
Kamal (57:03):
Awesome.
Well, the easiest way I wouldsay it will my Instagram page.
I have all the links, they'reall in there, but my answer I am
come all x.
So I am K a m a l x, that's myInstagram, and.
But if you also go to Amazonright now, you can preorder I'm
not sure when this will come outor just order it on Amazon.
If you type in black astronaut,come all x, it pops right up.
(57:25):
If you just put put in blackastronaut, it pops up.
But then come all x, it pops up.
You'll see me but astronautsuit with a big yellow x and
that's me and you found it.
And yeah, any support, any, itgoes such a long way, such a
long way.
This is my first majorpublication, the first major
self published.
This one is with publisher outin UK, so this is a whole
(57:49):
different level of more books tosell and it's a beautiful
challenge.
But it's also beautiful becauseI think it's into the
possibility of being into morehomes, more people, more
experiences, more conversation.
And anyone out there that'scurious and would like to check
it out of support, I wouldgreatly, greatly appreciate it.
(58:10):
You definitely won't be wastingyour time or your money, for
sure.
Amelia (58:15):
And I will make sure to link to your Instagram and to
Amazon for you to purchase it onthis episode.
So I have one last question foryou.
Ask everyone this Do you have afavorite quote or any words of
wisdom that you would like toleave behind for our listeners?
Kamal (58:35):
Favorite quote man, that's a who.
Well, there's so many becauseI'm thinking of Prince, love
Prince, but I can't think.
I know, I don't want to messPrince quotes up, but I'm also
thinking of Muhammad Ali,because Muhammad Ali I draw a
lot of inspiration from also,and it's quote it's quick
(58:57):
because I don't remember thewhole thing, but he literally
says I'm the greatest.
He says that and I'm not usingthat in a way like oh, I'm the,
but more so, like that level offaith in yourself and that level
of dealing with the worldagainst you and not being afraid
and standing up for what youbelieve in.
(59:18):
That's what I pull from when Iread that I'm the greatest.
When I'm seeing him say that andI'm seeing him be the
heavyweight champion in theworld at that time period, all
the things he's dealing with andspeaking out and being just one
of the greatest leaders,fighters of all time, it's like
whoa, you know.
It's just like I pull from thatand I think about that when I'm
down, when I'm even, when I'mworking out, if I'm like the
(59:39):
entire, I imagine like, oh,muhammad Ali say, man, he would
be like get up, you're the great, you know.
So like.
I always keep that in my mindof just like keeping me going
and it's a good mantra and yeah,it's a positive vibe.
And then there's some Princestuff, but I can't think of it
right now, but Prince is amazing.
So check out Prince.
Amelia (59:59):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining me today.
I am incredibly grateful foryou in this conversation.
It's been just really amazingand I'm really grateful that you
took time out of your day to bewith me.
Kamal (01:00:13):
Oh, thank I this.
I genuinely enjoyed all of this.
Your questions were amazing,connecting with you.
I love your ability to toconverse and to share, and you
have such an interesting storyyourself.
I wish you all the best andcontinued success and everything
you're doing.
All the listeners you guys havean amazing person you guys are
listening to.
(01:00:33):
Thank you to be here and, yeah,all of all of you.
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