May 16, 2025 • 44 mins
What happens when AI replaces the careers we've built our identities around? This question sits at the heart of my conversation with Naomi Buckwalter, Director of Product Security at Contrast Security and founder of Cybersecurity Gatebreakers Foundation.
Naomi's cybersecurity journey began with a moment of clarity during a week-long hacking course that changed everything. "The clouds parted, angels were singing," she recalls of the experience that propelled her from developer to security professional. Through sheer determination—and admittedly, some persistence that bordered on pestering—she convinced a manager to create a position specifically for her enthusiasm. This story alone offers valuable insight for anyone looking to pivot careers: find what lights you up, then advocate relentlessly for your place at that table.
But our conversation quickly moves beyond career tactics to examine profound questions about humanity's future. With AI rapidly advancing, Naomi suggests we're approaching a fundamental shift in how we understand work itself. "Maybe technology's purpose was always to give us freedom to explore, create, and just be human," she reflects. This perspective challenges our cultural fixation on career as identity—a relatively recent development in human history.
What strikes me most about Naomi is how she embodies this philosophy already. Beyond her day job, she finds deep fulfillment refereeing volleyball matches. Not for money (she actually loses money doing it), but for the intoxicating energy of facilitating human connection. "You feel the cheers, the energy, the camaraderie—everything beautiful about humans seeps right into your body." This passion perfectly illustrates her core belief: we're happiest when contributing to others' well-being.
As we navigate an uncertain future with AI, perhaps our greatest opportunity isn't preserving jobs but rediscovering what makes us uniquely human. "Deep down, we're all good people," Naomi reminds us—and finding ways to express that goodness might be our most meaningful work of all.
What would you do if freed from traditional work? How might we restructure society to value human connection over productivity? Connect with Naomi on LinkedIn to continue this vital conversation about our collective future.
https://www.vigilantviolet.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/jessvachon1
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Voices of the Vigilant, where we dive deep
into the human side of tech.
Here we go beyond the ones andzeros to explore the people,
passions and stories driving thecyber and internet security
world.
In each episode we bringtogether experts, rebels and
innovators from across the techindustry to share their personal
journeys, challenges andvictories.
(00:23):
And here's your host and rebelin charge at Vigilant, violet
Jess Vachon.
Jess Vachon (00:32):
Hey, welcome everyone to another episode of
Voices of the Vigilant.
I am so excited for my guesttoday, Naomi Buckwalter,
Director of Product Security atContrast Security.
We have known each other for afew years, and I consider her
more than just a professionalassociation.
I call her a good friend.
Naomi Buckwalter (00:52):
Oh my gosh yay .
Jess Vachon (00:53):
So welcome, Naomi, for the people who are listening
in, why don't you tell us alittle bit about who you are and
what you do right now?
Naomi Buckwalter (01:01):
Oh, hi everyone, it's good to see you
and good to see Jess, and we'redefinitely more than friends.
We're like fellow travelers inthis human experience together
and we've talked about this atlength.
So, yeah, happy to dive intothat craziness.
Hey everyone, I'm Naomi.
If you don't know me, I'mmostly online, I guess on
LinkedIn, and I kind of hate itsometimes if you just ask me and
(01:24):
have a conversation.
Yeah, I absolutely hate it.
But yeah, I talk about a lot ofstuff about application
security, cybersecurity ingeneral, cybersecurity, jobs,
just, yeah, random stuff.
But, yeah, love being here withyou, jess, thanks for having me
.
Jess Vachon (01:40):
Thank you.
So what do you do in yourday-to-day as the Director of
Product Security?
For those of us who don't knowwhat a Director of Product
Security does,
Naomi Buckwalter (01:50):
Okay, so most cybersecurity teams will have an
application security team.
So if you just think of productsecurity as AppSec like the old
school definition of AppSecthat's what I do.
We are a software vendor.
We write security software andmy job is to secure the software
that we sell.
Yeah, it's very meta, which isactually kind of nice because,
since I work for a securitycompany, people take security
(02:12):
very seriously.
So I like to tell people thisis almost the perfect job for a
security person.
If you ever work for a securityvendor, you will never struggle
.
I almost feel like people willstill push back, but not as hard
.
I feel like from my experience,goals, goals hashtag goals.
Yeah, thank you, is hashtagstill a thing?
(02:33):
Hashtag?
I don't know, I think so thesedays, don't do hashtags and just
say other things so how did youget into information security?
Jess Vachon (02:42):
What interested you and then how did you end up in
product security specifically?
Naomi Buckwalter (03:55):
I got really lucky.
I just stumbled upon a class.
That same week I went over tothe AppSec manager.
He didn't even know who I was.
I was like, hey, so how do Iget on your team?
Like I literally emailed him.
I was like, hey, how do I geton your team?
Because you need me, obviously.
I was so full of it, so Iemailed him.
(04:18):
I'm like, how can I get on yourteam?
Because it'd be amazing, Iwould love to work for you,
right.
And he's like who are you?
Who are you?
Go away! Because I was stillpretty much junior in my roles
at Vanguard, but I convinced him.
So he opened up a role just forme.
He had a role open for a senior, by the way, but I convinced
him somehow and I kept pastoringhim, I kept asking him
(04:40):
questions, I kept telling himhow much I'm learning and
enjoying this stuff.
Right, and it wasn't just theclass, I just went back and I
learned everything I could aboutit.
And he was like, yeah, sure,come join our team.
So I joined his team as amid-level so not a senior, but a
mid-level, yeah.
And then it was security fromthat point on and that was back
in, I want to say 2007 or so, Ican't really remember.
(05:06):
As a developer, I was doingsome security stuff anyway.
So I want to say, like 2006 iswhen I started doing security,
but I think full-time 2007 wasmy first role.
Jess Vachon (05:15):
Love it.
So a couple things you saidthere that I think are really
important.
One is you search out thingsyou might be interested Find
that one thing that you reallywere good at, that you really
loved.
I think that's an importantlesson for people who are newer
to cybersecurity, in that youmay get into the field and you
(05:37):
may be doing something thatyou're just not in love with.
But if you can stick out thatperiod of time when you're
searching and then talk to theother groups, talk to other
leaders in the organization, youmight find what interests you
and what you are really good at,and that might build your
future career.
So that inspiration piece issuper important and when I talk
(06:03):
to my mentees, I'm alwaystelling them look, you have to
taste a little bit of everythingat the table before you can
decide.
Oh, I really like this meal.
I'd like to have this meal moreoften.
Naomi Buckwalter (06:12):
Right, and then you burn out.
Jess Vachon (06:17):
Yeah, well, hopefully you don't burn out.
But if you get in this mindsetwhere I get into information
security, I can only do onething you will be disappointed
and at some point, if you're notbroadening your horizons, if
you're not learning new skillsand we'll get into this a little
later in the conversationyou're going to find yourself at
(06:39):
a dead end in your careerbecause you can only take it so
far and, as we know, technologyis turning over and growing and
changing so fast that you can'tbe stationary ever in our career
field.
The second thing I wanted tohighlight is that someone gave
you an opportunity oh yeah andI'm assuming that along with
(07:02):
that, there was coaching, wastraining, there was guidance.
That wasn't just about APSEC,but probably also about
professionalism in the role.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout that?
Naomi Buckwalter (07:14):
Oh yeah, if you had known me back in 2006,
you would have been like thisgirl hasn't improved her
emotional intelligence sincefifth grade, like I was really
stunted emotionally, I would say, and I was just kind of a jerk.
I would think Like smartestperson in the room kind of thing
like, but not even smart, justjerk.
And you know, really, when yougrow up and you're constantly
(07:39):
told, hey, you're smart and youcan do these things and you go
to college for engineering andyou do well there, you're like
you're just kind of primed tocome into the workforce with a
chip on your shoulder and that'skind of how I walked in and
very quickly realized that's notthe way to do things in the
corporate worlds.
You might be right, but the wayyou do certain things is a
(08:01):
large part of any team, anydecision, anytime someone wants
to accept you to help them withtheir work.
The way you do certain thingsand the way you approach people.
Yeah, it took me a long time.
So the manager I had his nameis Tony.
He has since retired and hereally helped me grow as a
(08:22):
professional and it was justnice.
It was nice.
I really appreciate that.
Jess Vachon (08:27):
Yeah, again, you make another good point.
You can come in with all thebook knowledge in the world, but
your success is built on howyou apply that right.
So do I understand the business?
Do I understand thatinformation security is a
supporter of the business?
(08:48):
And with rare circumstances,such as being in product
security or AppSec for an AppSeccompany, you are not going to
be the central focus ofeverything going on, focus of
(09:09):
everything going on.
And we have to learn to bend inour rules or our attitudes to
be successful in moving theprogram forward in support of
the business.
And it sounds like you learnedsome of those lessons earlier.
Naomi Buckwalter (09:17):
Oh yeah, I learned that pretty hard Because
at Vanguard, security really isone of the core drivers of the
business, so we had a seat atthe table.
I didn't know anything else.
That was the way I grew up inIT.
I had 12 years of Vanguard,very mature IT practices, very
mature AppSec practices, and Iwas exposed to so many wonderful
(09:37):
people in the industry thefounder of OWASP we worked
alongside each other.
There was so much that I justtook for granted and so by the
time I left Vanguard I didn'tknow any different.
So that was the way Iapproached things.
Was you, listen to security?
There is no ifs, ands or butsabout it.
We come to the table, we tellyou what to do and then you say,
yes, that was it.
(09:59):
And so it was a shock when Iwalked into my first meeting and
they're like yeah, you're,we're just optional here.
You guys are just here as aservice.
I'm like what?
And?
And I would say that probablyset me back a few years because
I didn't understand the purposeof security, which is a service
for the business.
Jess Vachon (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
So beyond your job and I thinkwhen you spoke briefly before we
went live you have interest inmentoring others, and I will
just let everyone know that youwere a mentor to me for a short
period of time in a program thatI was accepted into, which was
(10:37):
great.
That's really how we got toknow each other.
I had been following you foryears before that, but it was
incredible to be able to talkwith you and get your wisdom and
see the scenarios that youbrought forward.
I know you work with otherpeople.
I know you're dedicated to thesuccess of others through your
Cybersecurity GatebreakersFoundation.
Talk about that passion youhave for helping others and talk
(11:00):
about the foundation, and youknow kind of where you're at now
at this point in your careerand with what you're seeing out
in the workforce.
Naomi Buckwalter (11:09):
Yeah,, happy to Helping other people.
That's always a good thing.
So I think it was during COVID,where I just had some time to
think and I set up on myLinkedIn hey, I'd love to talk
to people.
If you have any questions, I'mtaking on some mentees, whatever
it is, I have some time to talk.
And I think I spent like awhole week straight.
I blocked off my calendar forlike hours at a time just to
(11:31):
talk to people.
that's where I realized peopleare really struggling to break
into cybersecurity and at thatpoint in my career I thought it
was just as easy as it was forme.
I just asked for a job and itwas really cringe, now that I've
think about it, to even havethe entitlement, the way to be
like I deserve this job, why not?
That would not even fly.
(11:51):
I would be laughed out of theroom.
My resume would just be throwninto the trash, honestly, but
that's how I just assumedeveryone else was going through.
And so when I talked to folksand they're telling me their
experience of how difficult itwas, I'm like, wait a second,
that's just really unfair.
And looking back, I'm like,yeah, I think that was a good
thing.
So we started CybersecurityGatebreakers in 2022.
(12:15):
And, yeah, it's been a wildride since then.
We're an education nonprofit,just so you know.
We don't have any money, we'resuper poor, but we go around.
We share the good news of like,yes, it's okay to hire
entry-level folks and this ishow you do it and these are the
benefits and here's thequestions you want to ask in
interviews and kind of basicguidelines that a lot of hiring
managers don't have.
(12:37):
But I will say now that in 2025is the game changing thing now
is AI.
So we're now trying to find alittle bit of a pivot.
It's like where does AI fitinto this whole thing and we
talked about this right beforewe started, jess is
cybersecurity is really becomingcommoditized.
The entry is so much lower nowwith AI.
(12:58):
Ai can help with learning and Ilove that.
I love that for us.
I love that for us.
And now the cybersecuritygatebreakers are trying to
figure out how does that workwith the rubrics that we
generate and the questions forthe interviews and the take-home
projects if there are any anystill like we're still kind of
just debating it, and yeah,that's where we are right now.
It's like how does AI changeall this?
Jess Vachon (13:21):
So, and obviously, or it's obvious to me, but
hopefully it's obvious to thosethat are listening as well, you
are not afraid to challenge thecybersecurity norms.
Recently, within the last weekor so, you have posted a few
times about how AI is going tochange employment for us, how
(13:42):
it's going to changecybersecurity and how it's going
to benefit us, along with somechallenges that it will bring.
Let's just open the floor uphere.
Naomi Buckwalter (13:55):
I mean, I would love to know your thoughts
too.
I don't want to be the only one.
Jess Vachon (14:00):
Yeah, well, I will tell you that I agree with a lot
of what you have said.
If you are challenged infinding employment right now you
are new to information securityyou have to see what the job
market looks like.
A lot of companies are doingRIFs reduction in force and
(14:24):
those jobs, in my opinion, arenot coming back.
In my opinion, are not comingback.
Companies are looking atefficiencies and those
efficiencies are going to begained by employing artificial
intelligence in areas where itmakes sense to get rid of
repetitive tasks and provideautomation.
This is nothing new.
Businesses have always lookedto run more streamlined when
(14:45):
they can, to reduce expenses sothat profits are higher.
What we can't do right now isput our heads in the sand and
say, well, it's not going toaffect me, it is coming for
everyone in every industry Isaid it myself like even my job
is at risk absolutely,absolutely um the skilled labor
(15:06):
jobs.
I actually think the skilledlabor jobs will be the safest
for the longest period of timeand combination of trades.
Naomi Buckwalter (15:13):
Yeah, yeah, automation that can can do some
of that work.
but yeah, it's a knowledgework that's going away.
Yeah, oh, yeah, okay.
So sometimes I'm like, am Icrazy to think this way?
But like, if you think about it, just the notion of work for
corporations, for capitalismhasn't really been around that
(15:36):
long, like even the time offarms.
Like most of us were just 100years ago just willing to
survive another day, like ourwhole entire life was around
just getting food and living andsurviving.
Like the whole idea of work andbuilding capital for a company
(15:58):
and like whatever, whatever,whatever it's fairly new, like,
so I almost challenged the wholeidea of like this is how it's
always been.
It's like actually it's not.
And maybe the whole purpose oftechnology was always to be to
give us that freedom to exploreand to create and to live and to
love and to just be human andexperience what it means to be
(16:19):
human.
And at the point where I'm like, yeah, I kind of over this, and
maybe it's just the agespeaking.
I don't know about you, but Ifeel like I'm just at the point
where I'm like it's okay if Ijust stop working, like it's
okay, it's okay, where wouldmoney come from?
I don't know.
You would have to change thewhole economic structures in our
society to have more, and thenthat could open a whole can of
(16:41):
worms too.
Jess Vachon (16:41):
I don't want to get there if you don't want to no,
I think you're right, and that'swhat we're here for we're going
to open that can of worms.
Naomi Buckwalter (16:49):
Why not?
Is that the whole point oftechnology is to make our lives
a little bit easier, right?
And so why are we forcingourselves to work when we don't
have to?
Are we doing work that'sactually meaningful and
beneficial to society, or are wekind of just doing bullshit
jobs?
Wasn't there a famous book oran author that posited something
(17:11):
like 50 of all jobs are likebullshit?
Office jobs are bullshit.
It's like even higher than that, do you know?
It's like 80 of all jobs arebullshit.
.
Jess Vachon (17:19):
Oh god, so there's a lot in that right, because so
many of us derive meaning fromour work and there's there's
cultural reasons for that, right.
We're raised to think that themeaning that we bring to life is
in our work, in our jobs, inour titles in our salaries.
Naomi Buckwalter (17:39):
But that is recent.
That is not the evolution ofhumanity as we know it, like
that was never a thing untilrecently, maybe after the
industrial revolution, I don'tknow never a thing until
recently, Maybe after theindustrial revolution, I don't
know.
Jess Vachon (17:55):
So I think that's how we have to look at things.
Moving forward is if we're notgoing to be doing the work right
, If artificial intelligence androbotics is going to replace
the manual and thinking laborthat we can do, what else can we
do?
And you know there's arts andsciences right.
Excuse me, it's always been aninterest of humans, that ability
to develop ways to be able toexplore and learn more about
(18:19):
ourselves.
I don't think that's a badthing, I don't see how the
economic engine can continue.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Oh my gosh yeah.
Jess Vachon (18:27):
Because, first of all, you take all these people
out of the workforce and theyhave no product they're not
buying product.
So now, why are you producingproduct?
So we really have to thinkabout where we're going, and
it's not a bad thing for us tothink about.
How do we preserve the planetand the water and the air for us
(18:52):
?
How do we look to move offplanet?
Those are things, those areaspirations that are inherently
human because we've been doingit since our existence.
Naomi Buckwalter (19:01):
We've been moving and learning.
Jess Vachon (19:04):
And to your point, we we built the success of
humanity on working togethergood yeah, the common good yeah
and think about the massivewaste and talent that we are
spending every day.
Naomi Buckwalter (19:20):
They're nine to fives in front of a computer
screen.
Like what a massive waste oftalent.
Imagine the stuff we couldaccomplish if we had a mission
statement like what is thepurpose, what is the long-term
goal of humanity, what is itlike?
And you ask 10 different people, you get 10 different answers.
I'm always curious like what doyou think?
Just like in your definition,in your opinion?
Jess Vachon (19:42):
The purpose of humanity, I think, is simply for
us to grow and learn, aboutourselves, but also about others
.
We have a mindset that we'reall independent, but we're not
independent.
We're interdependent with eachother.
I like to use the concept ofwaves in the ocean.
(20:05):
Right, if you have one wave,you don't really have an ocean,
but if you have hundreds andhundreds of waves, then you have
an ocean and it's a powerfulentity because it's got all that
motion and all that powermoving through it, and that, to
me, is why we're here.
Now, whether this is reality asmost perceive it or not.
(20:26):
That's all different.
As a Buddhist, I can tell you.
I have all my senses to informme, but they're all external to
me, and how I interpret thoseare the result of
electrochemical impulses withinthe body.
So there's a whole bunch ofdeep thinking that goes along
(20:48):
with that.
Not to deviate too far from thesubject, but these are things,
these are conversations we needto have.
These are the conversationsthat matter, the conversations
about should we have DEIprograms?
We're past that.
Yes, we have that because wecare about one another right, we
(21:09):
care about the common good.
Why do we have laws andregulations?
We have those because we agreedon a set of principles to allow
us to move beyond foraging inthe forest, chasing animals for
our sustenance, for our commongood.
Once we came to thoseagreements, we started moving
forward rapidly To your point.
(21:29):
You know, a couple thousandyears ago everyone was
struggling to survive and nowthere's still people struggling
to survive, but it's less so.
Naomi Buckwalter (21:40):
Right, and that's because we are able to
come together as a group ofhumans with a shared principle
of survival and benefits.
You know, like helping others.
Yeah, I agree.
I think deep down, we're allgood people.
You know this.
But I was raised Christian andin the Christian tradition it's
(22:01):
like very common to tell littlechildren like no, you're a
sinner.
Like, first of all, I thinkit's a little bit of child abuse
, but let's not go there.
So growing up, you're taughtthat, hey, you're inherently bad
.
But I think, now that I'mthinking about this, people are
inherently good and more oftenthan not, you'll find more
people than not who want to dothe right thing, even if no
(22:23):
one's looking.
And I think, if you put thatall together, in our work, in
our daily lives, even ourinternal self, we want to do
what's right, and that is theissue that we need to remember
when we talk about things likeAI and layoffs and what the
purpose of work is.
It's like we are inherentlygood people.
(22:45):
What does that mean foreverything else?
How can we translate that intooutside of ourselves?
Jess Vachon (22:52):
yeah so.
So I'm going to pose this, thatquestion or that scenario back
to you.
What does it mean to you in thenext five or ten years?
How are you going to navigatethis?
Naomi Buckwalter (23:03):
oh yeah, so I didn't spend enough time
thinking about that.
Actually, I'm only thinking I'mright now in the mode of AI is
taking our jobs, but that's okay.
Like a part of it's like Ireally want a job.
I would love a job and I knowAI is coming for my job.
I would still love a job, but Icould see AI Like I'm in the
middle of this, like I want AIto take my job.
(23:31):
Why am I stuck in chains to acomputer when I can be doing
something else to benefithumankind, whatever it might be?
And now I'm saying my best jobI've ever had was teaching other
little kids how to swim, and Iwas a little kid myself, I was
probably like 16, but that wasmy best job because it benefited
humanity.
And I would even argue a lot ofus, just a lot of us in
cybersecurity, have this notionof like cybersecurity does help
society and that's why we do it,not only just for the massive
(23:53):
paychecks, but also because it'slike interesting and then it
helps people, like it's atrifecta of like amazing,
jobless.
And I want to get back to thatwhere maybe AI has taken over a
majority of the knowledge workand I can do my critical
thinking in other ways, which Ithink humans really need to do.
We need to struggle and we needto think about things, and I
think that's always going to bea thing.
(24:13):
But to work, to do work,meaningless work, that's not
what we're here for.
So in five to 10 years, I'malways like if I don't have a
job, what would I rather do?
Well, hopefully our economicstructures have changed so we
can at least survive at a basiclevel, whether that is universal
basic income or something likesocial credits, where we have
(24:34):
incentives to do good work andyou get paid by whoever it is,
like the AI, gods, whoever we'veoffloaded our critical thinking
to in governments.
Oh, by the way, did you hearthis?
I think Kuwait is the firstgovernment to be like yeah,
we're going to be run by AI.
The way, did you hear this?
I think Kuwait is the firstgovernment to be like yeah,
we're going to be run by ai.
Jess Vachon (24:51):
How, did you hear this?
I only just heard it in But.
yeah?
Naomi Buckwalter (24:56):
They're okay with off-boarding their
government decisions to ai, solike, okay, it's happening.
So in five to ten years toanswer your question directly,
uh, I would still like to work,but I want my work to be
directly tied to benefitinghumankind.
I know that sounds super idealand naive again, but I think
I've come full circle.
It's like now that, and if youthink about, like the richest
(25:18):
people in the world, some ofthem are complete assholes.
Like I'm not going to but thenbut then some of them actually
do a huge amount of good work,and so these are the folks that
are remembered by history.
These are the folks that haveleft a legacy.
I think Warren Buffett justfamously said like hey, I'm
going to give away 99% of mywealth before I die.
(25:39):
Like good on you, that'sexactly right.
You can't take it with you.
What are you going to do?
Like respawn in the lobby with10 million credits?
That doesn't happen.
Respawn in the lobby with 10million credits?
That doesn't happen.
You gamers out there, you can'ttake it with you.
So I love the fact that we havepeople thinking about this and
they have the ability to thinkabout this because they don't
(26:00):
need the money anymore.
They're set for life.
They're set for 100,000 lives.
They're good.
Now they can think about whatit means to benefit humanity.
I think in the future of AI, wewill all have that ability.
It will be democratized enoughwhere AI will be so cheap to use
and everyone will have theirown little personal AIs that we
are free to do the thinking ofbenefiting humankind.
(26:23):
And I will say because I thinkhumans are deep down good people
that's not true for everyone.
I think some of us are borninto psychopathic neuroses.
Those are the folks we have towatch out for and that's okay,
like that's the criticalthinking.
Those are the problems that wecan still solve, that's the work
that we can still do.
Jess Vachon (26:42):
Yeah, I love that Very, very well thought out.
You've obviously spent timepondering this, which is great
and it's interesting.
I'll share a little personalstory.
So during the last couple weeksI was in and out of work.
I have the luxury of being ableto have a moment, on PTO.
(27:03):
I had an event in my familywhere my younger brother,
youngest brother, had to go intohospice care and I was able to
be there by his side and carefor him and what I realized when
I was there is that that hadsuch deep meaning to me to be
able to have that human touch.
(27:27):
Now, if I think way back towhen I first got into computers,
I think it reflects what youwere touching upon, as I was
thinking, oh, this is great,this is gonna make life easier
for people, right, programmingVIC 20 and watching the program
execute, and then yeah, that'syeah, and then in the 90s, you
know seeing technology reallystart to take root.
(27:49):
The internet yeah, andeverything it could do.
And then I remember working inhealth care and how you know,
the doctors, their medicaljournals and everything were at
their fingertips so they couldtake a problem, put in all the
symptoms they were seeing andhave a variety of things that
they could look at that might bethe potential problem for the
patient and and treat that andthen, in the process of doing
(28:12):
that, accumulating moreknowledge that could be shared,
uh, among, amongst health careprofessionals.
Um, which was great until therecent point we get to where
everyone says, oh, thatinformation can't be relied upon
, it's falsified.
You know I want to go too fardown that rabbit hole, but we
(28:32):
came so far and technologyreally did bring us to a good
place.
And then I think we get to thepoint of social media.
And well, we have evidence nowthat we've been manipulated via
social media.
I mean, there was a book thatjust came out from someone who
worked at Meta, who was insidethere and wrote about how Meta
(28:53):
intentionally was manipulatinghow people thought and then,
when negative things happened,would say that they didn't have
anything to do with it,allegedly, I want to make sure I
say allegedly, because this isgoing off of something that was
in the book and I don't know itmyself to be true, but there's
enough inferences, behavior,that we have to question it.
(29:20):
So we kind of lost that promiseand maybe the AI now is going to
bring back that promise.
If we're willing to accept itand really change our mindset
about how we want to have asocial contract for humanity,
regardless of nations,regardless of backgrounds or
(29:41):
even our religious beliefs.
If we're willing to do that andsay even our religious beliefs,
if we're willing to do that andsay we're going to be here for
each other, I think AI is goingto bring us to a good place.
But to bring it full circle, itmeans we aren't going to be
working the way we're workingtoday.
Naomi Buckwalter (29:58):
Yeah, work will be massively different.
Jess Vachon (30:01):
Yeah, this isn't atypical.
For every technology that'scome along, things have changed.
A lot of people feared goinggreen.
Right, but we have reduced someof our carbon emissions because
we chose to use more wind powerand more solar power.
We're reducing tailpipeemissions because people are
(30:23):
accepting that an electric caris a better investment in our
future.
And, just as an aside, I nowhave an electric vehicle.
I'll tell you, if you drive anICE vehicle and then you drive
an electric vehicle, you're notgoing back to the ICE vehicle
because EVs drive so much better.
(30:44):
Yeah, so much more torque.
Um, it's a completely differentway of driving.
Instead of constantly pressingon the accelerator, you're
getting enough momentum, vehiclecruise, and you take advantage
of the braking or the momentum.
So there's, there's good thingsthat come from change, right,
good things that come from thesenew things that we bring
(31:05):
absolutely we're doing so good.
Naomi Buckwalter (31:07):
Think about it like where we came from sticks
and rocks drawing our caves,like we've come so far yeah,
humanity we're doing so greatyeah, so some of it's been good,
but I think we need to we're atthe point where we should
really commit to leveragingtechnology and artificial
intelligence to get us more backin touch with what it means to
(31:28):
be human and what it means to beconnected to nature.
Jess Vachon (31:32):
That's that's a good one, yeah yeah, because
yeah we're all one consciousness, so look, everyone I talk to,
with rare exception, loves to goon hikes, loves to be out in
the woods, loves the ocean,loves the lakes.
And why is that?
Because you're touchingsomething that is the core of
who we are and where we camefrom and provides that meaning
(31:56):
to us.
And people are seeking meaning.
If you follow a religion,you're seeking a meaning.
You're seeking the answer tothe question of why am I here?
Seeking the answer question ofwhy am I here?
And I, even if you don't followreligion, I still think most
people who don't follow religionare still trying to figure out,
like what is my purpose?
Why am I here?
(32:16):
yeah, and that itself in itselfcan be considered religion.
Even if you don't believe inany entity, you're, you're still
left with these questions oflike why am I here?
yeah,
Naomi Buckwalter (32:27):
Yeah absolutely
Jess Vachon (32:30):
Now we're going to get in the way back machine.
I like to understand how my,how my guests come to be who
they are today.
So I'm always curious, likewhat kind of kid were you, and
what do you think the influenceof your parents is on who you
are as an adult now?
Naomi Buckwalter (32:47):
Oh geez, yeah.
Well, you know my backgroundbut I'm not willing to share
quite yet.
But I would say I grew up avery awkward, socially awkward
and weird, weird kid.
I didn't have a ton of friends,my parents were very tiger
mom-ish if you know that phrasefor the Chinese community there
and I just was just quiet shy.
(33:09):
I don't think I broke out of mymold until college.
So I went to Stevens Instituteof Technology in New Jersey and
it was there when I finally hadfreedom I ate all the junk food,
by the way like it was justlike sorry, mom and dad, I just
had literally meals of Swedishfish, that's all I ate.
Because it was finally like hey, sugar.
And I finally broke out of myshell, because one thing I'm
(33:30):
good at is mimicking people so Ican take their mannerisms and
copy them and really change whoI am.
So a downside of that is I'vereally lost who I am, my
personality.
I still don't really know who Iam.
It's kind of sad because I'vetaken on and copied so many
different characters from TV andmovies and people that I'm like
.
Oh, I kind of like how they didthat and the way they speak,
(33:52):
and this is what I'll do so.
I'm good at the mimicking thing.
So now here I am in my 40s,just not really understanding
who I am.
But from where I started Iwould call myself like a little
unmolded shape of clay, like abunch of blob, like I was a blob
and from there I think I'mhappy where I am.
I don't think I would changeanything about my past and yeah,
(34:14):
it's been a journey, but that'swho I was as a kid super
awkward still am, I guess well.
Jess Vachon (34:21):
Thank you for sharing that yeah, yeah it's
been my experience that workingin IT and information security,
a lot of us tended to be thekids that didn't always did or
we didn't want to follow thenorms.
Where you see, the bullshitbehind the norms.
(34:42):
You know you're like.
I refuse to participate in this.
It's stupid yeah, I was not theteacher's favorite actually.
I was not either.
They couldn't put me far enoughin the back of the classroom to
get me out of trouble what'swrong with you?
Naomi Buckwalter (34:56):
Why don't you talk?
Because I hate everything aboutthis.
Like you don't want me talking.
Jess Vachon (35:03):
For me I was just, I I was so intellectually
curious and I couldn't getenough of it in the classroom,
like the rote you have to learnABC.
Just, I couldn't do it and Iwas reading at a very early age,
so I was reading everything andanything that was in front of
me, and the classroom to me wasjust too slow.
.
, yeah, yeah, and it's what Irecently, didn't realize until
(35:50):
recently and only because myfamily this, keeps insisting on
this is that I might be a littleneurodivergent and and learned
a lot of to,"mimicking use yourterm mimicking that I didn't
know I was doing just because Iwas trying to fit into some sort
of um, societal expectations,but never quite doing it, um,
and then if you're watchingvideo or you, you know my back
history.
There's a lot of other thingsthat went into that as well, so
I learned to be a very goodactor at a very young age.
Naomi Buckwalter (36:06):
, I would say, because you put on these masks
and you end up, not like themask has stayed on so long that
you don't know who you areunderneath anymore.
So that's the downside, but theupside is you do see things
differently, right like.
You see the bullshit.
You see the different patterns.
You're like why is it this way?
Jess Vachon (36:24):
Well, society needs people like us, so yeah, and
you know, I'm not so sure, Idon't know if it's necessarily
see the bullshit as much as itis.
We gain wisdom throughexperience and we're able to see
things in a different context.
And you certainly view theworld differently when you're in
your twenties and you'restarting your career and you're,
(36:44):
you're going forward and you,you, you have aspirations that
you think are attainable andsociety tells you yeah, you can
do that, you absolutely can dothat.
And then you hit between the 30sand the 40s and things don't
pan out the way you thought theywould and you're stymied in
your efforts to to meet thoseaspirations.
(37:05):
And I think when you get your50s and the age that I'm at, you
look back at your career andyou start to think about it
differently, like did I helpother people?
Did I help other families?
Have I I given people career ?
And and you know, know what Ihave like 20 years give or take
?
.
What do I want to do with thattime?
And, to your point, do I wantto continue on this the path?
(37:28):
Like, am I making a differencein my chosen career field?
And if I'm not, how can I bendthat career field to my
advantage to make a difference?
Or maybe, maybe it's beingbrave and just tossing it all
aside and saying I'm just goingto go without a parachute here
and figure out what it is I wantto do, because now I know what
(37:53):
life means to me and I want totaste every single minute of
every day until it's time for meto go.
Maybe I'm being a littlesentimental because my brother
just passed and I'm thinking Ineed to have my life have more
meaning than what it has.
So I don't know.
This is supposed to be focusedon you!
Naomi Buckwalter (38:11):
But you're doing a good job and so unfair
for your brother.
I'm so sorry that sucks.
Jess Vachon (38:20):
Yeah, there's the long story behind it.
You know, we make choices inlife and some of those choices
we can't escape, and that's kindof what happened there,
something I'll talk about in adifferent podcast at some other
point in time.
So I'd like to do this onething as we get close to the end
of recording.
(38:42):
I call it "asking an empoweringquestion.
It is meant to put you on thespot a little bit.
I call it asking an empoweringquestion.
It is meant to put you on thespot a little bit.
Okay, sure.
So your question is, "what arethese things that make me feel
good while I'm doing them?
Naomi Buckwalter (38:59):
What are the things that make me feel good?
Exercise for sure, theendorphins are a real thing.
Let's see.
I know this sounds super campy,but, like helping people, it's
so weird.
It's like I like why am I hereon this earth?
And I really and I've thoughtabout this it's like I I think
I'm just happiest when I'mtalking to people and helping
people and understanding theirstruggles.
(39:21):
I guess, like it's almost anenergy thing where I think you
have this too, where you walkinto your room and you could
just immediately feel the energyand I can feel it if it's bad,
and I can feel it if it's goodand it's so super strong and
it's right in your face and likeeither it's a fight or flight
sometimes for me.
If it's bad energy and it'sintense, I need to leave, like I
(39:44):
need to leave, I need toprotect my own space.
But if it's intense, I need toleave.
I need to leave, I need toprotect my own space.
But if it's an energy thatneeds help, I can feel that too
and I'm almost directly drawn tothat person where I'm like, hey
, how you doing, and then try tobe just a friendly face for the
day, I don't know, but I dofeel happiest when I'm talking
to people and helping people andtrying to help them figure out
(40:05):
their stuff.
Whether my help is good or not,but in general I just like to
listen and empathize.
Yeah, awesome.
Jess Vachon (40:15):
I'm surprised you didn't mention the thing that
you do on the side that's sportsrelated.
Naomi Buckwalter (40:21):
Oh, the volleyball referee.
Yeah, okay, so there, I wasthinking about this.
So it's definitely a specialinterest of mine, the whole
refereeing thing.
Um, so I started volleyballrefereeing like way back in the
day, but I only just picked itup recently.
Um, you could, my goal forrefereeing is to like one day do
those matches that you see ontv and just like be the person
up on the stand.
You don't even see my face andthat's totally fine with it.
(40:43):
But but I love orchestrate,like I love managing all that
high energy and the excitementand I could.
It's so intoxicating, jess, likeit's insane.
You're standing up there andyou feel the cheers and you feel
the energy and you feel likethe camaraderie and like
everything that's beautifulabout humans.
All that energy just getsseeped right into your body.
Like it's so intoxicating.
You're like what is this?
(41:04):
And the first time I rememberdoing it seriously, I was like
huh, this is like meditation, Ireally really like this.
And then, once you get a littlebit better at it, it really is.
Just you sit back and youmanage people and that's all it
is.
It really is.
And I'm at that point where I'mlike huh, I can really see
myself doing this long term ifAI doesn't take over refereeing
(41:26):
also, which could help it yeah.
Jess Vachon (41:30):
Whenever you talk about it, you light up and I
love to watch you talk about it,and for anyone who catches up
with Naomi outside of thepodcast you know, at a
conference or something if youhear her talk about it, it's
just great.
I just get so excited about itand your stories are great and
(41:50):
even how you think about like,"did I do this well enough this
one one uh session meditation.
Naomi Buckwalter (41:57):
It's the weirdest weirdest thing and it's
super hard on your body.
You're standing there for like10 hours a day for these, some
of these tournaments, yeah, butit's intoxicating something
about being a benefit to societyand doing good work.
At the end of the day, you'relike I did something good, I
help people, like that was itand that's what feels good.
Honestly, it comes all back tothat Like it's not making money.
(42:20):
You guys get paid pennies, likeif anything, like I Like if
anything.
I don't make any money actually.
Like I pay money to go there.
Jesus, you fly these planes andyou get the cars and stuff and
it costs money at the end of theday, but you are there to
benefit society.
It's just a microcosm of, Ithink, what humanity is all
trying to do anyway, yeah.
Jess Vachon (42:41):
I love it.
You brought it full circle fromthe beginning.
Naomi Buckwalter (42:44):
Full circle yeah, yeah, there's a reason for
the madness and likely you dothese podcasts because you know
deep down you want to help andyou see that humans are good and
you're trying to draw that outof people and it's okay to.
You don't want to be liketoxically optimistic.
I think that is it toxicoptimism, whatever.
You don't want to be blind tothe fact that there are problems
(43:06):
to the world, but if you take astep back, everything's okay
and just remember that we'regood people.
And this is kind of like thething I've been starting to do
is like if you go out and youwalk around the street and you
see people like in my head, Ilike to give them compliments,
even though I might not say it'slike oh, I really like their
hair, like Jess will be like Ireally like your hair today.
Or like I like your outfit,it's really cute.
(43:27):
Or I'll say it in my headbecause to me that's helped see
people as good humans ratherthan like, oh, they're standing
in my way or they're cutting myline or whatever.
It is Like something negativeabout them.
I'd rather give them the gracethat I want other people to give
me, rather give them the gracethat I want other people to give
(43:48):
me Right.
Jess Vachon (43:49):
So that's beautiful .
That's a great way to endNaomi, thank you so much for
joining me for this episode ofthe podcast.
Where can people find you?
Naomi Buckwalter (43:58):
Oh gosh, I guess I'm back on LinkedIn,
unfortunately, and for the timebeing, I'm just going to start
ranting on AI and taking overour jobs.
It's an input, it's inevitable,but I want our society to
change for the better.
So yeah, find me on LinkedInand connect with me if you'd
like Love to talk to you.
Jess Vachon (44:16):
Thank you, and thank you to the listeners for
joining us for another session.
Until next time, see ya.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Voices of the Vigilant.
If you liked what you heardtoday, please subscribe and
leave a review in your favoritepodcast app For a copy of the
transcript.
To follow Jess to apply as aguest of the show or to learn
more about services fromVigilant Violet, please visit
VigilantVioletcom.
(44:47):
Until next time, stay vigilant.
Welcome to Voices of the Vigilant, where we dive deep
into the human side of tech.
Here we go beyond the ones andzeros to explore the people,
passions and stories driving thecyber and internet security
world.
In each episode we bringtogether experts, rebels and
innovators from across the techindustry to share their personal
journeys, challenges andvictories.
(00:23):
And here's your host and rebelin charge at Vigilant, violet
Jess Vachon.
Jess Vachon (00:32):
Hey, welcome everyone to another episode of
Voices of the Vigilant.
I am so excited for my guesttoday, Naomi Buckwalter,
Director of Product Security atContrast Security.
We have known each other for afew years, and I consider her
more than just a professionalassociation.
I call her a good friend.
Naomi Buckwalter (00:52):
Oh my gosh yay .
Jess Vachon (00:53):
So welcome, Naomi, for the people who are listening
in, why don't you tell us alittle bit about who you are and
what you do right now?
Naomi Buckwalter (01:01):
Oh, hi everyone, it's good to see you
and good to see Jess, and we'redefinitely more than friends.
We're like fellow travelers inthis human experience together
and we've talked about this atlength.
So, yeah, happy to dive intothat craziness.
Hey everyone, I'm Naomi.
If you don't know me, I'mmostly online, I guess on
LinkedIn, and I kind of hate itsometimes if you just ask me and
(01:24):
have a conversation.
Yeah, I absolutely hate it.
But yeah, I talk about a lot ofstuff about application
security, cybersecurity ingeneral, cybersecurity, jobs,
just, yeah, random stuff.
But, yeah, love being here withyou, jess, thanks for having me
.
Jess Vachon (01:40):
Thank you.
So what do you do in yourday-to-day as the Director of
Product Security?
For those of us who don't knowwhat a Director of Product
Security does,
Naomi Buckwalter (01:50):
Okay, so most cybersecurity teams will have an
application security team.
So if you just think of productsecurity as AppSec like the old
school definition of AppSecthat's what I do.
We are a software vendor.
We write security software andmy job is to secure the software
that we sell.
Yeah, it's very meta, which isactually kind of nice because,
since I work for a securitycompany, people take security
(02:12):
very seriously.
So I like to tell people thisis almost the perfect job for a
security person.
If you ever work for a securityvendor, you will never struggle
.
I almost feel like people willstill push back, but not as hard
.
I feel like from my experience,goals, goals hashtag goals.
Yeah, thank you, is hashtagstill a thing?
(02:33):
Hashtag?
I don't know, I think so thesedays, don't do hashtags and just
say other things so how did youget into information security?
Jess Vachon (02:42):
What interested you and then how did you end up in
product security specifically?
Naomi Buckwalter (03:55):
I got really lucky.
I just stumbled upon a class.
That same week I went over tothe AppSec manager.
He didn't even know who I was.
I was like, hey, so how do Iget on your team?
Like I literally emailed him.
I was like, hey, how do I geton your team?
Because you need me, obviously.
I was so full of it, so Iemailed him.
(04:18):
I'm like, how can I get on yourteam?
Because it'd be amazing, Iwould love to work for you,
right.
And he's like who are you?
Who are you?
Go away! Because I was stillpretty much junior in my roles
at Vanguard, but I convinced him.
So he opened up a role just forme.
He had a role open for a senior, by the way, but I convinced
him somehow and I kept pastoringhim, I kept asking him
(04:40):
questions, I kept telling himhow much I'm learning and
enjoying this stuff.
Right, and it wasn't just theclass, I just went back and I
learned everything I could aboutit.
And he was like, yeah, sure,come join our team.
So I joined his team as amid-level so not a senior, but a
mid-level, yeah.
And then it was security fromthat point on and that was back
in, I want to say 2007 or so, Ican't really remember.
(05:06):
As a developer, I was doingsome security stuff anyway.
So I want to say, like 2006 iswhen I started doing security,
but I think full-time 2007 wasmy first role.
Jess Vachon (05:15):
Love it.
So a couple things you saidthere that I think are really
important.
One is you search out thingsyou might be interested Find
that one thing that you reallywere good at, that you really
loved.
I think that's an importantlesson for people who are newer
to cybersecurity, in that youmay get into the field and you
(05:37):
may be doing something thatyou're just not in love with.
But if you can stick out thatperiod of time when you're
searching and then talk to theother groups, talk to other
leaders in the organization, youmight find what interests you
and what you are really good at,and that might build your
future career.
So that inspiration piece issuper important and when I talk
(06:03):
to my mentees, I'm alwaystelling them look, you have to
taste a little bit of everythingat the table before you can
decide.
Oh, I really like this meal.
I'd like to have this meal moreoften.
Naomi Buckwalter (06:12):
Right, and then you burn out.
Jess Vachon (06:17):
Yeah, well, hopefully you don't burn out.
But if you get in this mindsetwhere I get into information
security, I can only do onething you will be disappointed
and at some point, if you're notbroadening your horizons, if
you're not learning new skillsand we'll get into this a little
later in the conversationyou're going to find yourself at
(06:39):
a dead end in your careerbecause you can only take it so
far and, as we know, technologyis turning over and growing and
changing so fast that you can'tbe stationary ever in our career
field.
The second thing I wanted tohighlight is that someone gave
you an opportunity oh yeah andI'm assuming that along with
(07:02):
that, there was coaching, wastraining, there was guidance.
That wasn't just about APSEC,but probably also about
professionalism in the role.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout that?
Naomi Buckwalter (07:14):
Oh yeah, if you had known me back in 2006,
you would have been like thisgirl hasn't improved her
emotional intelligence sincefifth grade, like I was really
stunted emotionally, I would say, and I was just kind of a jerk.
I would think Like smartestperson in the room kind of thing
like, but not even smart, justjerk.
And you know, really, when yougrow up and you're constantly
(07:39):
told, hey, you're smart and youcan do these things and you go
to college for engineering andyou do well there, you're like
you're just kind of primed tocome into the workforce with a
chip on your shoulder and that'skind of how I walked in and
very quickly realized that's notthe way to do things in the
corporate worlds.
You might be right, but the wayyou do certain things is a
(08:01):
large part of any team, anydecision, anytime someone wants
to accept you to help them withtheir work.
The way you do certain thingsand the way you approach people.
Yeah, it took me a long time.
So the manager I had his nameis Tony.
He has since retired and hereally helped me grow as a
(08:22):
professional and it was justnice.
It was nice.
I really appreciate that.
Jess Vachon (08:27):
Yeah, again, you make another good point.
You can come in with all thebook knowledge in the world, but
your success is built on howyou apply that right.
So do I understand the business?
Do I understand thatinformation security is a
supporter of the business?
(08:48):
And with rare circumstances,such as being in product
security or AppSec for an AppSeccompany, you are not going to
be the central focus ofeverything going on, focus of
(09:09):
everything going on.
And we have to learn to bend inour rules or our attitudes to
be successful in moving theprogram forward in support of
the business.
And it sounds like you learnedsome of those lessons earlier.
Naomi Buckwalter (09:17):
Oh yeah, I learned that pretty hard Because
at Vanguard, security really isone of the core drivers of the
business, so we had a seat atthe table.
I didn't know anything else.
That was the way I grew up inIT.
I had 12 years of Vanguard,very mature IT practices, very
mature AppSec practices, and Iwas exposed to so many wonderful
(09:37):
people in the industry thefounder of OWASP we worked
alongside each other.
There was so much that I justtook for granted and so by the
time I left Vanguard I didn'tknow any different.
So that was the way Iapproached things.
Was you, listen to security?
There is no ifs, ands or butsabout it.
We come to the table, we tellyou what to do and then you say,
yes, that was it.
(09:59):
And so it was a shock when Iwalked into my first meeting and
they're like yeah, you're,we're just optional here.
You guys are just here as aservice.
I'm like what?
And?
And I would say that probablyset me back a few years because
I didn't understand the purposeof security, which is a service
for the business.
Jess Vachon (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
So beyond your job and I thinkwhen you spoke briefly before we
went live you have interest inmentoring others, and I will
just let everyone know that youwere a mentor to me for a short
period of time in a program thatI was accepted into, which was
(10:37):
great.
That's really how we got toknow each other.
I had been following you foryears before that, but it was
incredible to be able to talkwith you and get your wisdom and
see the scenarios that youbrought forward.
I know you work with otherpeople.
I know you're dedicated to thesuccess of others through your
Cybersecurity GatebreakersFoundation.
Talk about that passion youhave for helping others and talk
(11:00):
about the foundation, and youknow kind of where you're at now
at this point in your careerand with what you're seeing out
in the workforce.
Naomi Buckwalter (11:09):
Yeah,, happy to Helping other people.
That's always a good thing.
So I think it was during COVID,where I just had some time to
think and I set up on myLinkedIn hey, I'd love to talk
to people.
If you have any questions, I'mtaking on some mentees, whatever
it is, I have some time to talk.
And I think I spent like awhole week straight.
I blocked off my calendar forlike hours at a time just to
(11:31):
talk to people.
that's where I realized peopleare really struggling to break
into cybersecurity and at thatpoint in my career I thought it
was just as easy as it was forme.
I just asked for a job and itwas really cringe, now that I've
think about it, to even havethe entitlement, the way to be
like I deserve this job, why not?
That would not even fly.
(11:51):
I would be laughed out of theroom.
My resume would just be throwninto the trash, honestly, but
that's how I just assumedeveryone else was going through.
And so when I talked to folksand they're telling me their
experience of how difficult itwas, I'm like, wait a second,
that's just really unfair.
And looking back, I'm like,yeah, I think that was a good
thing.
So we started CybersecurityGatebreakers in 2022.
(12:15):
And, yeah, it's been a wildride since then.
We're an education nonprofit,just so you know.
We don't have any money, we'resuper poor, but we go around.
We share the good news of like,yes, it's okay to hire
entry-level folks and this ishow you do it and these are the
benefits and here's thequestions you want to ask in
interviews and kind of basicguidelines that a lot of hiring
managers don't have.
(12:37):
But I will say now that in 2025is the game changing thing now
is AI.
So we're now trying to find alittle bit of a pivot.
It's like where does AI fitinto this whole thing and we
talked about this right beforewe started, jess is
cybersecurity is really becomingcommoditized.
The entry is so much lower nowwith AI.
(12:58):
Ai can help with learning and Ilove that.
I love that for us.
I love that for us.
And now the cybersecuritygatebreakers are trying to
figure out how does that workwith the rubrics that we
generate and the questions forthe interviews and the take-home
projects if there are any anystill like we're still kind of
just debating it, and yeah,that's where we are right now.
It's like how does AI changeall this?
Jess Vachon (13:21):
So, and obviously, or it's obvious to me, but
hopefully it's obvious to thosethat are listening as well, you
are not afraid to challenge thecybersecurity norms.
Recently, within the last weekor so, you have posted a few
times about how AI is going tochange employment for us, how
(13:42):
it's going to changecybersecurity and how it's going
to benefit us, along with somechallenges that it will bring.
Let's just open the floor uphere.
Naomi Buckwalter (13:55):
I mean, I would love to know your thoughts
too.
I don't want to be the only one.
Jess Vachon (14:00):
Yeah, well, I will tell you that I agree with a lot
of what you have said.
If you are challenged infinding employment right now you
are new to information securityyou have to see what the job
market looks like.
A lot of companies are doingRIFs reduction in force and
(14:24):
those jobs, in my opinion, arenot coming back.
In my opinion, are not comingback.
Companies are looking atefficiencies and those
efficiencies are going to begained by employing artificial
intelligence in areas where itmakes sense to get rid of
repetitive tasks and provideautomation.
This is nothing new.
Businesses have always lookedto run more streamlined when
(14:45):
they can, to reduce expenses sothat profits are higher.
What we can't do right now isput our heads in the sand and
say, well, it's not going toaffect me, it is coming for
everyone in every industry Isaid it myself like even my job
is at risk absolutely,absolutely um the skilled labor
(15:06):
jobs.
I actually think the skilledlabor jobs will be the safest
for the longest period of timeand combination of trades.
Naomi Buckwalter (15:13):
Yeah, yeah, automation that can can do some
of that work.
but yeah, it's a knowledgework that's going away.
Yeah, oh, yeah, okay.
So sometimes I'm like, am Icrazy to think this way?
But like, if you think about it, just the notion of work for
corporations, for capitalismhasn't really been around that
(15:36):
long, like even the time offarms.
Like most of us were just 100years ago just willing to
survive another day, like ourwhole entire life was around
just getting food and living andsurviving.
Like the whole idea of work andbuilding capital for a company
(15:58):
and like whatever, whatever,whatever it's fairly new, like,
so I almost challenged the wholeidea of like this is how it's
always been.
It's like actually it's not.
And maybe the whole purpose oftechnology was always to be to
give us that freedom to exploreand to create and to live and to
love and to just be human andexperience what it means to be
(16:19):
human.
And at the point where I'm like, yeah, I kind of over this, and
maybe it's just the agespeaking.
I don't know about you, but Ifeel like I'm just at the point
where I'm like it's okay if Ijust stop working, like it's
okay, it's okay, where wouldmoney come from?
I don't know.
You would have to change thewhole economic structures in our
society to have more, and thenthat could open a whole can of
(16:41):
worms too.
Jess Vachon (16:41):
I don't want to get there if you don't want to no,
I think you're right, and that'swhat we're here for we're going
to open that can of worms.
Naomi Buckwalter (16:49):
Why not?
Is that the whole point oftechnology is to make our lives
a little bit easier, right?
And so why are we forcingourselves to work when we don't
have to?
Are we doing work that'sactually meaningful and
beneficial to society, or are wekind of just doing bullshit
jobs?
Wasn't there a famous book oran author that posited something
(17:11):
like 50 of all jobs are likebullshit?
Office jobs are bullshit.
It's like even higher than that, do you know?
It's like 80 of all jobs arebullshit.
.
Jess Vachon (17:19):
Oh god, so there's a lot in that right, because so
many of us derive meaning fromour work and there's there's
cultural reasons for that, right.
We're raised to think that themeaning that we bring to life is
in our work, in our jobs, inour titles in our salaries.
Naomi Buckwalter (17:39):
But that is recent.
That is not the evolution ofhumanity as we know it, like
that was never a thing untilrecently, maybe after the
industrial revolution, I don'tknow never a thing until
recently, Maybe after theindustrial revolution, I don't
know.
Jess Vachon (17:55):
So I think that's how we have to look at things.
Moving forward is if we're notgoing to be doing the work right
, If artificial intelligence androbotics is going to replace
the manual and thinking laborthat we can do, what else can we
do?
And you know there's arts andsciences right.
Excuse me, it's always been aninterest of humans, that ability
to develop ways to be able toexplore and learn more about
(18:19):
ourselves.
I don't think that's a badthing, I don't see how the
economic engine can continue.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Oh my gosh yeah.
Jess Vachon (18:27):
Because, first of all, you take all these people
out of the workforce and theyhave no product they're not
buying product.
So now, why are you producingproduct?
So we really have to thinkabout where we're going, and
it's not a bad thing for us tothink about.
How do we preserve the planetand the water and the air for us
(18:52):
?
How do we look to move offplanet?
Those are things, those areaspirations that are inherently
human because we've been doingit since our existence.
Naomi Buckwalter (19:01):
We've been moving and learning.
Jess Vachon (19:04):
And to your point, we we built the success of
humanity on working togethergood yeah, the common good yeah
and think about the massivewaste and talent that we are
spending every day.
Naomi Buckwalter (19:20):
They're nine to fives in front of a computer
screen.
Like what a massive waste oftalent.
Imagine the stuff we couldaccomplish if we had a mission
statement like what is thepurpose, what is the long-term
goal of humanity, what is itlike?
And you ask 10 different people, you get 10 different answers.
I'm always curious like what doyou think?
Just like in your definition,in your opinion?
Jess Vachon (19:42):
The purpose of humanity, I think, is simply for
us to grow and learn, aboutourselves, but also about others
.
We have a mindset that we'reall independent, but we're not
independent.
We're interdependent with eachother.
I like to use the concept ofwaves in the ocean.
(20:05):
Right, if you have one wave,you don't really have an ocean,
but if you have hundreds andhundreds of waves, then you have
an ocean and it's a powerfulentity because it's got all that
motion and all that powermoving through it, and that, to
me, is why we're here.
Now, whether this is reality asmost perceive it or not.
(20:26):
That's all different.
As a Buddhist, I can tell you.
I have all my senses to informme, but they're all external to
me, and how I interpret thoseare the result of
electrochemical impulses withinthe body.
So there's a whole bunch ofdeep thinking that goes along
(20:48):
with that.
Not to deviate too far from thesubject, but these are things,
these are conversations we needto have.
These are the conversationsthat matter, the conversations
about should we have DEIprograms?
We're past that.
Yes, we have that because wecare about one another right, we
(21:09):
care about the common good.
Why do we have laws andregulations?
We have those because we agreedon a set of principles to allow
us to move beyond foraging inthe forest, chasing animals for
our sustenance, for our commongood.
Once we came to thoseagreements, we started moving
forward rapidly To your point.
(21:29):
You know, a couple thousandyears ago everyone was
struggling to survive and nowthere's still people struggling
to survive, but it's less so.
Naomi Buckwalter (21:40):
Right, and that's because we are able to
come together as a group ofhumans with a shared principle
of survival and benefits.
You know, like helping others.
Yeah, I agree.
I think deep down, we're allgood people.
You know this.
But I was raised Christian andin the Christian tradition it's
(22:01):
like very common to tell littlechildren like no, you're a
sinner.
Like, first of all, I thinkit's a little bit of child abuse
, but let's not go there.
So growing up, you're taughtthat, hey, you're inherently bad
.
But I think, now that I'mthinking about this, people are
inherently good and more oftenthan not, you'll find more
people than not who want to dothe right thing, even if no
(22:23):
one's looking.
And I think, if you put thatall together, in our work, in
our daily lives, even ourinternal self, we want to do
what's right, and that is theissue that we need to remember
when we talk about things likeAI and layoffs and what the
purpose of work is.
It's like we are inherentlygood people.
(22:45):
What does that mean foreverything else?
How can we translate that intooutside of ourselves?
Jess Vachon (22:52):
yeah so.
So I'm going to pose this, thatquestion or that scenario back
to you.
What does it mean to you in thenext five or ten years?
How are you going to navigatethis?
Naomi Buckwalter (23:03):
oh yeah, so I didn't spend enough time
thinking about that.
Actually, I'm only thinking I'mright now in the mode of AI is
taking our jobs, but that's okay.
Like a part of it's like Ireally want a job.
I would love a job and I knowAI is coming for my job.
I would still love a job, but Icould see AI Like I'm in the
middle of this, like I want AIto take my job.
(23:31):
Why am I stuck in chains to acomputer when I can be doing
something else to benefithumankind, whatever it might be?
And now I'm saying my best jobI've ever had was teaching other
little kids how to swim, and Iwas a little kid myself, I was
probably like 16, but that wasmy best job because it benefited
humanity.
And I would even argue a lot ofus, just a lot of us in
cybersecurity, have this notionof like cybersecurity does help
society and that's why we do it,not only just for the massive
(23:53):
paychecks, but also because it'slike interesting and then it
helps people, like it's atrifecta of like amazing,
jobless.
And I want to get back to thatwhere maybe AI has taken over a
majority of the knowledge workand I can do my critical
thinking in other ways, which Ithink humans really need to do.
We need to struggle and we needto think about things, and I
think that's always going to bea thing.
(24:13):
But to work, to do work,meaningless work, that's not
what we're here for.
So in five to 10 years, I'malways like if I don't have a
job, what would I rather do?
Well, hopefully our economicstructures have changed so we
can at least survive at a basiclevel, whether that is universal
basic income or something likesocial credits, where we have
(24:34):
incentives to do good work andyou get paid by whoever it is,
like the AI, gods, whoever we'veoffloaded our critical thinking
to in governments.
Oh, by the way, did you hearthis?
I think Kuwait is the firstgovernment to be like yeah,
we're going to be run by AI.
The way, did you hear this?
I think Kuwait is the firstgovernment to be like yeah,
we're going to be run by ai.
Jess Vachon (24:51):
How, did you hear this?
I only just heard it in But.
yeah?
Naomi Buckwalter (24:56):
They're okay with off-boarding their
government decisions to ai, solike, okay, it's happening.
So in five to ten years toanswer your question directly,
uh, I would still like to work,but I want my work to be
directly tied to benefitinghumankind.
I know that sounds super idealand naive again, but I think
I've come full circle.
It's like now that, and if youthink about, like the richest
(25:18):
people in the world, some ofthem are complete assholes.
Like I'm not going to but thenbut then some of them actually
do a huge amount of good work,and so these are the folks that
are remembered by history.
These are the folks that haveleft a legacy.
I think Warren Buffett justfamously said like hey, I'm
going to give away 99% of mywealth before I die.
(25:39):
Like good on you, that'sexactly right.
You can't take it with you.
What are you going to do?
Like respawn in the lobby with10 million credits?
That doesn't happen.
Respawn in the lobby with 10million credits?
That doesn't happen.
You gamers out there, you can'ttake it with you.
So I love the fact that we havepeople thinking about this and
they have the ability to thinkabout this because they don't
(26:00):
need the money anymore.
They're set for life.
They're set for 100,000 lives.
They're good.
Now they can think about whatit means to benefit humanity.
I think in the future of AI, wewill all have that ability.
It will be democratized enoughwhere AI will be so cheap to use
and everyone will have theirown little personal AIs that we
are free to do the thinking ofbenefiting humankind.
(26:23):
And I will say because I thinkhumans are deep down good people
that's not true for everyone.
I think some of us are borninto psychopathic neuroses.
Those are the folks we have towatch out for and that's okay,
like that's the criticalthinking.
Those are the problems that wecan still solve, that's the work
that we can still do.
Jess Vachon (26:42):
Yeah, I love that Very, very well thought out.
You've obviously spent timepondering this, which is great
and it's interesting.
I'll share a little personalstory.
So during the last couple weeksI was in and out of work.
I have the luxury of being ableto have a moment, on PTO.
(27:03):
I had an event in my familywhere my younger brother,
youngest brother, had to go intohospice care and I was able to
be there by his side and carefor him and what I realized when
I was there is that that hadsuch deep meaning to me to be
able to have that human touch.
(27:27):
Now, if I think way back towhen I first got into computers,
I think it reflects what youwere touching upon, as I was
thinking, oh, this is great,this is gonna make life easier
for people, right, programmingVIC 20 and watching the program
execute, and then yeah, that'syeah, and then in the 90s, you
know seeing technology reallystart to take root.
(27:49):
The internet yeah, andeverything it could do.
And then I remember working inhealth care and how you know,
the doctors, their medicaljournals and everything were at
their fingertips so they couldtake a problem, put in all the
symptoms they were seeing andhave a variety of things that
they could look at that might bethe potential problem for the
patient and and treat that andthen, in the process of doing
(28:12):
that, accumulating moreknowledge that could be shared,
uh, among, amongst health careprofessionals.
Um, which was great until therecent point we get to where
everyone says, oh, thatinformation can't be relied upon
, it's falsified.
You know I want to go too fardown that rabbit hole, but we
(28:32):
came so far and technologyreally did bring us to a good
place.
And then I think we get to thepoint of social media.
And well, we have evidence nowthat we've been manipulated via
social media.
I mean, there was a book thatjust came out from someone who
worked at Meta, who was insidethere and wrote about how Meta
(28:53):
intentionally was manipulatinghow people thought and then,
when negative things happened,would say that they didn't have
anything to do with it,allegedly, I want to make sure I
say allegedly, because this isgoing off of something that was
in the book and I don't know itmyself to be true, but there's
enough inferences, behavior,that we have to question it.
(29:20):
So we kind of lost that promiseand maybe the AI now is going to
bring back that promise.
If we're willing to accept itand really change our mindset
about how we want to have asocial contract for humanity,
regardless of nations,regardless of backgrounds or
(29:41):
even our religious beliefs.
If we're willing to do that andsay even our religious beliefs,
if we're willing to do that andsay we're going to be here for
each other, I think AI is goingto bring us to a good place.
But to bring it full circle, itmeans we aren't going to be
working the way we're workingtoday.
Naomi Buckwalter (29:58):
Yeah, work will be massively different.
Jess Vachon (30:01):
Yeah, this isn't atypical.
For every technology that'scome along, things have changed.
A lot of people feared goinggreen.
Right, but we have reduced someof our carbon emissions because
we chose to use more wind powerand more solar power.
We're reducing tailpipeemissions because people are
(30:23):
accepting that an electric caris a better investment in our
future.
And, just as an aside, I nowhave an electric vehicle.
I'll tell you, if you drive anICE vehicle and then you drive
an electric vehicle, you're notgoing back to the ICE vehicle
because EVs drive so much better.
(30:44):
Yeah, so much more torque.
Um, it's a completely differentway of driving.
Instead of constantly pressingon the accelerator, you're
getting enough momentum, vehiclecruise, and you take advantage
of the braking or the momentum.
So there's, there's good thingsthat come from change, right,
good things that come from thesenew things that we bring
(31:05):
absolutely we're doing so good.
Naomi Buckwalter (31:07):
Think about it like where we came from sticks
and rocks drawing our caves,like we've come so far yeah,
humanity we're doing so greatyeah, so some of it's been good,
but I think we need to we're atthe point where we should
really commit to leveragingtechnology and artificial
intelligence to get us more backin touch with what it means to
(31:28):
be human and what it means to beconnected to nature.
Jess Vachon (31:32):
That's that's a good one, yeah yeah, because
yeah we're all one consciousness, so look, everyone I talk to,
with rare exception, loves to goon hikes, loves to be out in
the woods, loves the ocean,loves the lakes.
And why is that?
Because you're touchingsomething that is the core of
who we are and where we camefrom and provides that meaning
(31:56):
to us.
And people are seeking meaning.
If you follow a religion,you're seeking a meaning.
You're seeking the answer tothe question of why am I here?
Seeking the answer question ofwhy am I here?
And I, even if you don't followreligion, I still think most
people who don't follow religionare still trying to figure out,
like what is my purpose?
Why am I here?
(32:16):
yeah, and that itself in itselfcan be considered religion.
Even if you don't believe inany entity, you're, you're still
left with these questions oflike why am I here?
yeah,
Naomi Buckwalter (32:27):
Yeah absolutely
Jess Vachon (32:30):
Now we're going to get in the way back machine.
I like to understand how my,how my guests come to be who
they are today.
So I'm always curious, likewhat kind of kid were you, and
what do you think the influenceof your parents is on who you
are as an adult now?
Naomi Buckwalter (32:47):
Oh geez, yeah.
Well, you know my backgroundbut I'm not willing to share
quite yet.
But I would say I grew up avery awkward, socially awkward
and weird, weird kid.
I didn't have a ton of friends,my parents were very tiger
mom-ish if you know that phrasefor the Chinese community there
and I just was just quiet shy.
(33:09):
I don't think I broke out of mymold until college.
So I went to Stevens Instituteof Technology in New Jersey and
it was there when I finally hadfreedom I ate all the junk food,
by the way like it was justlike sorry, mom and dad, I just
had literally meals of Swedishfish, that's all I ate.
Because it was finally like hey, sugar.
And I finally broke out of myshell, because one thing I'm
(33:30):
good at is mimicking people so Ican take their mannerisms and
copy them and really change whoI am.
So a downside of that is I'vereally lost who I am, my
personality.
I still don't really know who Iam.
It's kind of sad because I'vetaken on and copied so many
different characters from TV andmovies and people that I'm like
.
Oh, I kind of like how they didthat and the way they speak,
(33:52):
and this is what I'll do so.
I'm good at the mimicking thing.
So now here I am in my 40s,just not really understanding
who I am.
But from where I started Iwould call myself like a little
unmolded shape of clay, like abunch of blob, like I was a blob
and from there I think I'mhappy where I am.
I don't think I would changeanything about my past and yeah,
(34:14):
it's been a journey, but that'swho I was as a kid super
awkward still am, I guess well.
Jess Vachon (34:21):
Thank you for sharing that yeah, yeah it's
been my experience that workingin IT and information security,
a lot of us tended to be thekids that didn't always did or
we didn't want to follow thenorms.
Where you see, the bullshitbehind the norms.
(34:42):
You know you're like.
I refuse to participate in this.
It's stupid yeah, I was not theteacher's favorite actually.
I was not either.
They couldn't put me far enoughin the back of the classroom to
get me out of trouble what'swrong with you?
Naomi Buckwalter (34:56):
Why don't you talk?
Because I hate everything aboutthis.
Like you don't want me talking.
Jess Vachon (35:03):
For me I was just, I I was so intellectually
curious and I couldn't getenough of it in the classroom,
like the rote you have to learnABC.
Just, I couldn't do it and Iwas reading at a very early age,
so I was reading everything andanything that was in front of
me, and the classroom to me wasjust too slow.
.
, yeah, yeah, and it's what Irecently, didn't realize until
(35:50):
recently and only because myfamily this, keeps insisting on
this is that I might be a littleneurodivergent and and learned
a lot of to,"mimicking use yourterm mimicking that I didn't
know I was doing just because Iwas trying to fit into some sort
of um, societal expectations,but never quite doing it, um,
and then if you're watchingvideo or you, you know my back
history.
There's a lot of other thingsthat went into that as well, so
I learned to be a very goodactor at a very young age.
Naomi Buckwalter (36:06):
, I would say, because you put on these masks
and you end up, not like themask has stayed on so long that
you don't know who you areunderneath anymore.
So that's the downside, but theupside is you do see things
differently, right like.
You see the bullshit.
You see the different patterns.
You're like why is it this way?
Jess Vachon (36:24):
Well, society needs people like us, so yeah, and
you know, I'm not so sure, Idon't know if it's necessarily
see the bullshit as much as itis.
We gain wisdom throughexperience and we're able to see
things in a different context.
And you certainly view theworld differently when you're in
your twenties and you'restarting your career and you're,
(36:44):
you're going forward and you,you, you have aspirations that
you think are attainable andsociety tells you yeah, you can
do that, you absolutely can dothat.
And then you hit between the 30sand the 40s and things don't
pan out the way you thought theywould and you're stymied in
your efforts to to meet thoseaspirations.
(37:05):
And I think when you get your50s and the age that I'm at, you
look back at your career andyou start to think about it
differently, like did I helpother people?
Did I help other families?
Have I I given people career ?
And and you know, know what Ihave like 20 years give or take
?
.
What do I want to do with thattime?
And, to your point, do I wantto continue on this the path?
(37:28):
Like, am I making a differencein my chosen career field?
And if I'm not, how can I bendthat career field to my
advantage to make a difference?
Or maybe, maybe it's beingbrave and just tossing it all
aside and saying I'm just goingto go without a parachute here
and figure out what it is I wantto do, because now I know what
(37:53):
life means to me and I want totaste every single minute of
every day until it's time for meto go.
Maybe I'm being a littlesentimental because my brother
just passed and I'm thinking Ineed to have my life have more
meaning than what it has.
So I don't know.
This is supposed to be focusedon you!
Naomi Buckwalter (38:11):
But you're doing a good job and so unfair
for your brother.
I'm so sorry that sucks.
Jess Vachon (38:20):
Yeah, there's the long story behind it.
You know, we make choices inlife and some of those choices
we can't escape, and that's kindof what happened there,
something I'll talk about in adifferent podcast at some other
point in time.
So I'd like to do this onething as we get close to the end
of recording.
(38:42):
I call it "asking an empoweringquestion.
It is meant to put you on thespot a little bit.
I call it asking an empoweringquestion.
It is meant to put you on thespot a little bit.
Okay, sure.
So your question is, "what arethese things that make me feel
good while I'm doing them?
Naomi Buckwalter (38:59):
What are the things that make me feel good?
Exercise for sure, theendorphins are a real thing.
Let's see.
I know this sounds super campy,but, like helping people, it's
so weird.
It's like I like why am I hereon this earth?
And I really and I've thoughtabout this it's like I I think
I'm just happiest when I'mtalking to people and helping
people and understanding theirstruggles.
(39:21):
I guess, like it's almost anenergy thing where I think you
have this too, where you walkinto your room and you could
just immediately feel the energyand I can feel it if it's bad,
and I can feel it if it's goodand it's so super strong and
it's right in your face and likeeither it's a fight or flight
sometimes for me.
If it's bad energy and it'sintense, I need to leave, like I
(39:44):
need to leave, I need toprotect my own space.
But if it's intense, I need toleave.
I need to leave, I need toprotect my own space.
But if it's an energy thatneeds help, I can feel that too
and I'm almost directly drawn tothat person where I'm like, hey
, how you doing, and then try tobe just a friendly face for the
day, I don't know, but I dofeel happiest when I'm talking
to people and helping people andtrying to help them figure out
(40:05):
their stuff.
Whether my help is good or not,but in general I just like to
listen and empathize.
Yeah, awesome.
Jess Vachon (40:15):
I'm surprised you didn't mention the thing that
you do on the side that's sportsrelated.
Naomi Buckwalter (40:21):
Oh, the volleyball referee.
Yeah, okay, so there, I wasthinking about this.
So it's definitely a specialinterest of mine, the whole
refereeing thing.
Um, so I started volleyballrefereeing like way back in the
day, but I only just picked itup recently.
Um, you could, my goal forrefereeing is to like one day do
those matches that you see ontv and just like be the person
up on the stand.
You don't even see my face andthat's totally fine with it.
(40:43):
But but I love orchestrate,like I love managing all that
high energy and the excitementand I could.
It's so intoxicating, jess, likeit's insane.
You're standing up there andyou feel the cheers and you feel
the energy and you feel likethe camaraderie and like
everything that's beautifulabout humans.
All that energy just getsseeped right into your body.
Like it's so intoxicating.
You're like what is this?
(41:04):
And the first time I rememberdoing it seriously, I was like
huh, this is like meditation, Ireally really like this.
And then, once you get a littlebit better at it, it really is.
Just you sit back and youmanage people and that's all it
is.
It really is.
And I'm at that point where I'mlike huh, I can really see
myself doing this long term ifAI doesn't take over refereeing
(41:26):
also, which could help it yeah.
Jess Vachon (41:30):
Whenever you talk about it, you light up and I
love to watch you talk about it,and for anyone who catches up
with Naomi outside of thepodcast you know, at a
conference or something if youhear her talk about it, it's
just great.
I just get so excited about itand your stories are great and
(41:50):
even how you think about like,"did I do this well enough this
one one uh session meditation.
Naomi Buckwalter (41:57):
It's the weirdest weirdest thing and it's
super hard on your body.
You're standing there for like10 hours a day for these, some
of these tournaments, yeah, butit's intoxicating something
about being a benefit to societyand doing good work.
At the end of the day, you'relike I did something good, I
help people, like that was itand that's what feels good.
Honestly, it comes all back tothat Like it's not making money.
(42:20):
You guys get paid pennies, likeif anything, like I Like if
anything.
I don't make any money actually.
Like I pay money to go there.
Jesus, you fly these planes andyou get the cars and stuff and
it costs money at the end of theday, but you are there to
benefit society.
It's just a microcosm of, Ithink, what humanity is all
trying to do anyway, yeah.
Jess Vachon (42:41):
I love it.
You brought it full circle fromthe beginning.
Naomi Buckwalter (42:44):
Full circle yeah, yeah, there's a reason for
the madness and likely you dothese podcasts because you know
deep down you want to help andyou see that humans are good and
you're trying to draw that outof people and it's okay to.
You don't want to be liketoxically optimistic.
I think that is it toxicoptimism, whatever.
You don't want to be blind tothe fact that there are problems
(43:06):
to the world, but if you take astep back, everything's okay
and just remember that we'regood people.
And this is kind of like thething I've been starting to do
is like if you go out and youwalk around the street and you
see people like in my head, Ilike to give them compliments,
even though I might not say it'slike oh, I really like their
hair, like Jess will be like Ireally like your hair today.
Or like I like your outfit,it's really cute.
(43:27):
Or I'll say it in my headbecause to me that's helped see
people as good humans ratherthan like, oh, they're standing
in my way or they're cutting myline or whatever.
It is Like something negativeabout them.
I'd rather give them the gracethat I want other people to give
me, rather give them the gracethat I want other people to give
(43:48):
me Right.
Jess Vachon (43:49):
So that's beautiful .
That's a great way to endNaomi, thank you so much for
joining me for this episode ofthe podcast.
Where can people find you?
Naomi Buckwalter (43:58):
Oh gosh, I guess I'm back on LinkedIn,
unfortunately, and for the timebeing, I'm just going to start
ranting on AI and taking overour jobs.
It's an input, it's inevitable,but I want our society to
change for the better.
So yeah, find me on LinkedInand connect with me if you'd
like Love to talk to you.
Jess Vachon (44:16):
Thank you, and thank you to the listeners for
joining us for another session.
Until next time, see ya.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Voices of the Vigilant.
If you liked what you heardtoday, please subscribe and
leave a review in your favoritepodcast app For a copy of the
transcript.
To follow Jess to apply as aguest of the show or to learn
more about services fromVigilant Violet, please visit
VigilantVioletcom.
(44:47):
Until next time, stay vigilant.
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