December 8, 2025 • 51 mins
We dig into what makes PR agencies grow without losing their edge, from acquisitions and integration to talent, culture, and the real role of AI. We share concrete ways to keep client trust, avoid burnout, and build teams that win.
• relationships as the core of acquisitions and integration
• communicating change to clients before headlines
• independence versus integration and preserving the secret sauce
• AI as a tool for higher value, not a replacement
• the barbell talent model and demand for SMEs
• gaps in business skills and project management training
• culture that reduces burnout and attracts top talent
• practical advice for agency owners on reinvention and fit
If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Give us your feedback, ideas, guest suggestions, or just let us know what you're thinking anytime. The email address is hello@vvkagency.com. Make sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode
Guests:
Ray Day, APR Ray is a recognized voice and leader in communications and public relations. He joined Stagwell Global in February 2020, bringing more than three decades of experience as a chief communications officer leading global communications teams, brands, and agencies.
Kimberly Hoyle Kimberly is a senior growth executive with 20 years of experience shaping multi-year growth strategies and corporate transformation plans. As a trusted advisor to C-suite executives, she drives alignment between operations, business development, and talent strategy to create scalable, sustainable growth.
Peter Van Dyke Peter is CEO and co-founder of VVK PR + Creative, a Detroit-based integrated communications agency. Under his leadership, VVK has grown from 3 to 29 employees and from $1.8M to $4.1M in revenue over 3.5 years, serving mission-driven organizations throughout Metro Detroit and beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Craig Fahle (00:18):
Hey greetings and welcome to the V VK Podcast.
I'm your host, Craig Folly.
Today, we're digging into whatPR agency growth really looks
like.
From independence tointegration, from acquisitions
to industry shifts, and fromtalent challenges to the future
of AI and automation.
We've got a packed conversationahead on the VVK Podcast.
(00:38):
Hey greetings once again.
Thanks for being here today.
And joining us are three voiceswho bring very different,
equally valuable perspectives onthe state of the public
relations industry.
Peter Van Dyke, of course, isthe CEO of VVK.
He's grown the agencyindependently and is now
expanding through theacquisition of Stern Strategy.
(00:59):
We also have with us KimberlyHoyle, a seasoned strategist
with deep experience insidemajor agencies and a real keen
sense of where the business isheaded.
And also Ray Day, Vice Chair atStagwell, offering a wide-angle
view of how the communicationslandscape is evolving across
clients, talent, and technology.
So we've got a packed show, alot to get to today.
I would like to welcome Peter,Kimberly, and Ray.
(01:22):
Thanks for being with us.
Thanks, Craig.
Great to be here.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about uh agency life,
growth in agency life.
And this is going to be someinsider baseball here, but
that's okay.
It's actually an importantdiscussion to have.
We're also going to have alittle bit of an opportunity to
talk about what's working,what's not, what's next for
agencies.
(01:42):
Um, and so we'll get right intothis.
And we really want to start outtalking a bit about growth.
Uh VVK has obviously seen somesome growth recently.
Uh Peter, you've been buildingthis agency independently.
Uh, you recently acquired Sternstrategies, and we folded them
into the VVK family.
Uh Kim, you've been insidelarge agencies.
(02:02):
You've been working on, youknow, getting people together,
finding different companies toto look at and bring into the
family and your career as well.
And Ray, you've beenintegrating agencies at Stagwell
at a big scale.
Um, this is your company isjust it's staggering in terms of
how large it is becoming.
Um at this point, are we reallyeven talking about the same
(02:24):
sort of business?
Uh, when we look at a companylike VVK, Cameron, we look like
what you've been doing and whereStagwell is where what are we
seeing?
Are these the same industries?
Peter, I'm gonna let you sortof look at that first.
Peter Van Dyke (02:36):
Yeah, I mean, there are different scales of
businesses, but I know it'ssomething that Ray and I agree
on because we've talked aboutthis.
Uh while the finances aredifferent, I think the core root
of the work that we do is thesame, especially when you're
scaling um at a global scale orlocal scale in acquisitions.
And the core root of that is inrelationships.
And so, you know, it's thefinances you can always work out
(02:58):
in a spreadsheet, therelationships that you develop
with uh those who you are youare acquiring, with the team
you're integrating.
Uh, that can't be mapped andcan't be added and can't be
subtracted.
That is um personal time andeffort and investment, uh, and
really understand where thecultural nuances are and if that
will work uh with the growthand the scale of your company.
So you have to start withreally knowing your company's
(03:21):
culture and and and so you canunderstand how to kind of
compare and contrast with thosethat you are going to work with,
whether it's one new employeeor a major acquisition, and then
really map out how that willintegrate and if it will not
only work internally with yourcompany, but will also resonate
with your clients.
Um and so, you know, again,very different scales.
Uh VVK is pretty local with abit of a national presence.
(03:45):
Um Ray works at a very globalscale, and Kim has worked uh
across the nation.
And I would think and I wouldhope that the root of all of
this work is based inrelationships.
Craig Fahle (03:56):
Uh but who wants to sort of tag off of that one
there?
Go ahead, Kim.
Kimberly Hoyle (04:00):
No, I agree.
I think um, you know, when yougo into the the the thought
process of MA, especially inthis space, you're thinking um
you're either scaling for talentor capabilities.
But I think um therelationships and the
integration piece of it is themost important, right?
So making sure that um you'reculturally aligned, making sure
(04:23):
that those employees who aregoing to stay have an
understanding of what theacquisition, what the
acquisition even means and andhow it um how it will kind of
unfold for clients.
Um and then on the client side,making sure that the clients
understand that it while you areexpanding your capabilities and
(04:44):
and the talent bench, um, thatthe foundation remains the same
and the level of service and andand how you um engage and
manage your clients.
Craig Fahle (04:54):
Yeah, I I think we're gonna get into that in a
little bit too, sort of thatthat part of this conversation
in just a little bit.
But Ray, I want to get yoursort of take on this too, and
what we're seeing right now andand uh and how you manage that.
Ray Day (05:05):
Yeah, and I I'll start out and say which one of these
people is not like the other.
And uh I come from being thenon-agency person.
Most of my career has beenin-house.
I spent 28 years at Ford, 10leading communications, and two
and a half at IBM.
So I am wired as the clientperson.
I still think like the client.
And I I agree wholeheartedlywith what Peter said about we're
(05:31):
in a relationship business.
And the reason that when I wasa client, I hired an agency was
to give me what I didn't havein-house.
And those relationships turninto partnerships.
And you know, we've beentalking, and I know what we'll
talk about today is is theagency dead with AI coming and
are we going to be replaced bymachines?
(05:52):
This is always going to be arelationship business.
It's always going to be aboutpartnership.
And when you hear me talk aboutagency, I will always use the
term agency partner because froma client standpoint, that's
always what I want (06:06):
a partner to help me be smarter, think more
strategically, and bring me whatI didn't have or I don't have
naturally in-house.
So very, very much I think weare a growth industry because
business has become so complextoday.
And we need those outside inpartnerships more than ever.
Craig Fahle (06:26):
Well, at what point, though, does it become
difficult to manage?
Because, you know, again, VVK,as Peter suggested, we're still
very localized.
Um, you know, we're growing,but at a responsible rate.
We're still making sure that wecan maintain those
relationships as best we can andand not lose sight of that sort
of customer focus that we need.
Is there a point where, though,that becomes difficult to do um
(06:48):
as as sort of an independentagency where you're growing to a
point where that's gonna getout of control?
Ray Day (06:55):
Scale is good, but you never want to lose your secret
sauce.
What brought you to the yourpoint where you were able to
scale, you need to maintainthat.
So whatever it is you uniquelybring to clients, preserve that.
And that means probably the topperson in the agency won't be
as hands-on with as many clientslong term, but he or she is
(07:18):
going to hire and bring intalent that still maintains that
secret sauce, whether it's V VKor whether it's others, that
really, really delivers.
You pay people money becauseyou need expertise that you
don't have.
Those are relationshipstypically.
That's expertise you don'thave.
That's a different way ofthinking.
(07:39):
You know, I when I spent 30plus years in-house, I know when
you work inside of a company,you can become very insular.
That's the beauty of bringingpeople in who have different
perspectives, differentrelationships, and frankly, a
candor that you can't always getin-house.
People are willing to shake youand say, you're headed in the
wrong direction.
Let me save you from yourself.
Craig Fahle (08:01):
Is there a r point though where, you know,
obviously growth is driven,revenue is driven by growth?
Uh, you know, you make somechoices.
Is there a point where arevenue point where it's
difficult to be independent anylonger?
Ray Day (08:15):
I think it's how you define independent.
I think when you look at bigagencies today, and this has
been happening, you know, wehave a lot of consolidation
going on in holding companiestoday.
When you look at some of theicons of our industry, that
consolidation is because bigisn't necessarily better.
And I worked with a lot of bigagencies, holding companies my
(08:37):
entire career.
And what I'd never wanted wasnumber one, big company
politics, big company fat, andbig company slowness.
And so where I do think I seethe most growth in agencies
today is in the medium to thesmall size, the very
individualized agencies.
But what people want is thatcombination where you can still
(09:00):
provide end-to-end services.
What has haunted some of thebig holding companies today is
they've grown, but they've grownthe overhead, and they perhaps
have forgotten what reallyallowed them to grow in the
first place, which was clientservice.
Craig Fahle (09:16):
Kim, I want to sort of get your thoughts uh on this
whole thing as well.
I mean, part of your job hasbeen making sure that, you know,
the the people that you'regetting together have cultures
that are going to fit, have sortof uh the ability to mesh
together without creating sortof these internal politics he
was discussing.
What's the biggest challengethere?
Um, because again, as you growas an agency, I mean there's
(09:37):
always going to be differentpressures on that agency.
You're gonna have less time todeal with individual clients
than you did.
So what's the sort of thebiggest challenge and the things
you look for in determiningwhether or not there's a natural
progression to grow?
Kimberly Hoyle (09:49):
Yeah.
Uh so I think um one of thechallenges is when you begin
that the integration process,um, you typically you're
thinking about it from a, youknow, the most senior level
executives who are at the tableand kind of um facilitating the
deal, finalizing the deal, anddetermining how um how you're
(10:11):
going to um engage and interactwith each other internally.
Um what I have seen thatbecomes a challenge is when you
do that and you don't thinkabout that management layer who
really has the ear of thepractitioners who are actually
doing the work, right?
So you get their buy-in.
And when you have that, thenthat ideally will carry over
(10:34):
into the client relationshipsand how how you're still
supporting and servicing theclients, because at the end of
the day, that's what reallymatters.
But when you don't payattention to that that layer of
management, who can really seethemselves in this integration,
they see where they fit in, andthen they're able to carry those
messages down to their teams sothat they too see where they
(10:57):
fit in in this integration andthat their work matters and what
they're doing matters, and it'sonly going to get opportunity
for growth.
Um I think when you I'veexperienced where when you miss
that, uh it can really theintegration really throws off
the the end product and howyou're supporting your clients,
and then you start to see clientchurn, you start to see
(11:19):
employees walk away and and itjust kind of falls apart.
But so I think in in the um inthe grand scheme of things, what
I look for is the ability forum management, the senior
management to say this is a umsort of an all hands on deck in
some way um effort to make surethat those who are going to be
(11:43):
here, those that we value, thosewho are going to be supporting
the clients on a day-to-daybasis, um see themselves in this
integration and see themselvesas a part of it, because that
again, that will determine howwe continue to service and
support our clients.
Craig Fahle (11:57):
Well, so so Peter, I I do want to bring this back
in-house a little bit, talk abit about VVK, because when when
this company started, you know,there were the three founders,
uh, a couple of employees, um, alot of clients.
So I knew there was going to bea certain amount of growth that
the company had to do in termsof personnel uh just to service
those clients that we did bringon board in those early days.
Um, but talk a little bit abouta couple of major decisions,
(12:20):
pivotal decisions in your mindthat sort of accelerated that
trajectory in a in a natural,healthy way, as opposed to just,
you know, sort of slowlycreeping along.
Peter Van Dyke (12:30):
Sure.
So I I think in the um thefirst two and a half years of
organic growth before the sternacquisition, um it really it's
no different in many ways intohow we approach the stern
acquisition.
It was every every person ispivotable, pivotal, pardon me,
to the success of the company.
Um and when when we dointerviews at V VK, you know,
we're pretty direct about whoour what our culture is, who our
(12:51):
clients are, and how thosethings have to work together.
Um, I often say, I'm usuallyinvolved in the final interviews
of of most of our team members.
Um and in those interviews, I Ikind of double down on the fact
that I often say we're acustomer service company and PR
and video is our product, um,kind of like Uber is a
technology company and kindmobility is their product.
(13:14):
Uh, because at the end of theday, if our customers aren't
here, then we're not here.
And so our team has tounderstand going in that they
walk in thinking about how do Iserve the customer best this
day, and they walk out thinkingabout how I serve the customer
best tomorrow.
And if they don't have thatcustomer service mindset, then
they're not going to besuccessful at this agency.
And frankly, I think probablyin most agency environments, uh,
(13:35):
they won't be successful.
Um, so I think it's reallyinstilling um a culture from a
number of different standpoints.
We also have, we leave a lot ofvalues and principles in this
agency where are reallyimportant to us.
Um, but that customer servicepiece is really important.
So in those early days, reallyit was all about hiring really
well.
And we were, we were very umintentional about it, but I'll
(13:55):
also say very lucky.
You know, we hired a lot ofpeople who are um smarter than
me, and they were able to jumpin and lead these clients um in
a way that felt very seamless.
Um, but that all started withhaving real honest conversations
about um what our principlesare and how we lead from a
client standpoint.
Um and I'll say, you know, whenwe when we brought in the Stern
(14:16):
acquisition, that was not onour uh 2025 plans this year.
Um but you don't, you know,when we get a good opportunity
in front of you, you you go forit.
Um and I remember, you know,pivotal, pivotal moment there,
uh, and Ned Ward, who's oursenior vice president over our
national team, talks about thisa lot.
Um, he was talking to fivedifferent agencies, everything
(14:37):
from larger national globalagencies to some smaller across
the nation.
Uh, and when my first interviewwith him and then his two PR
senior PR directors, um, Jen andStephanie, the first question I
asked is, you know, this isgonna be kind of scary to you.
You guys have, each of you haveworked here for 15, 18, 20
years.
What are your fears and how canI help mitigate them in this
(14:59):
process?
And they said there was noother company that asked him
that question.
They mostly said, What do theclient contracts look like?
You know, what's what's yourprofit margin on each service?
They went to all the numbers,all the details.
And I went in kind of wonderingwho they are as people and what
their kind of fears andchallenges are in this process.
Because if I understood those,uh, and then I can also take
(15:21):
those and kind of match them toour agency values and principles
and help mitigate those fearsbased upon how we operate.
I knew the rest would work.
I wasn't too worried aboutthat.
The numbers, again,spreadsheets figure numbers out
for us.
Uh, the the relationship pieceum uh is a little bit more
difficult and takes more timeand and really understanding
kind of what makes that persontick and how you can work with
(15:42):
them.
Um, so I I think you know,those two the the pivotal
pivotal moments for us have allbeen around our hiring.
Um uh we're we're apeople-powered company.
And so that's the mostimportant thing you do.
Craig Fahle (15:54):
Well, okay, I want to get into this for just a
second because you mentionedthat this was not on your bingo
card for for the for when ithappened, right?
Um so why?
Was there was there something,a gap that you were trying to
fill in and just saying at somepoint we need to do this?
And then it's just sort of fellinto our your lap.
I don't want to say thatbecause that's not exactly how
it happens, but kind of well,yeah.
But I mean, is this somethingthat you always intended to do
(16:16):
with V VK?
Peter Van Dyke (16:18):
It was.
Um, you know, I think we we gowhere our customers customers
demand us to go.
So our clients, we have amazingclients in in Michigan.
Uh many of them have a reallyhigh statewide profile and we're
looking to build a nationalprofile.
Uh this is some work that wewere doing on their behalf, um,
but I knew we could do itbetter.
And I knew we certainly didn'thave the skill set relationships
(16:38):
with national reporters andnational publications and
national conference planners uhto do that work successfully in
the long run.
Uh but this was in my like twoto three year vision.
You know, where it's it's it'sa bit of a demand, it's not a
high demand, we'll get there,maybe a strategic strategic hire
here and there.
Uh and then when the Sternopportunity came to me through a
(16:59):
broker, Janet Tyler, who isvery well known in Michigan and
nationally, uh, I was ready tohit delete on the email and I
looked at the subject line.
Subject lines are veryimportant.
Um, so I looked at the subjectline and it talked about a
national thought leadershipexecutive visibility
organization that works withclients that are directly in our
industry verticals.
Uh and I said, this kind oflooks too good to be true.
(17:21):
And so that was October of2024, and then by February 28th,
we had acquired uh the firm.
So it was a really quickprocess, but I think it was so
quick because it was such agreat alignment.
Craig Fahle (17:34):
Well, I uh I want to get Kim and Ray's perspective
on sort of that sort of similarissue here in just a second.
Ray, I'm gonna start with youfor just a second because you
know you're constantlyintegrating agencies at
Stagwell.
So what makes an acquisitionsomething that actually adds
something rather than just youknow adding headcount to a
company?
So so what are some of the redflags that you're looking out
(17:55):
for before you decide whether ornot to go that route?
Ray Day (17:57):
Yeah, and I'll I'll build on what Peter just talked
about.
It's the homework phase.
And the assimilation happensvery seamlessly if you've done
your homework during the buyingprocess.
And when I joined Stagwell fiveyears ago, we were 20 agencies
worldwide.
Today we're 75.
We went from a private companyto a public company.
And I worked with some of thebig hold codes and we learned
(18:23):
what we liked and what we didn'tlike.
And my bosses worked with someof the big hold codes, and we
learned what we liked and wedidn't like.
And what we didn't like waswhere the various entities
within a holding company triedto kill each other.
And I remember when I was atFord and we dealt with a very,
very large, well-known holdingcompany that everyone here would
know about, but I won't uhdisclose them.
(18:45):
I remember calling the CEO oneday and saying, Martin, uh this
is a good thing.
I think you just gave it awayright there.
Perhaps I said, uh, this iscrazy.
Um you I've got my ownpolitics, and now I've got all
your your agencies warringagainst each other, and they
keep telling me, I keep tellingthem, here's what our business
need is, and they keep tellingme where it falls within the PL.
(19:06):
And I said, Martin, I don'tcare.
Keep your politics to yourself,sort yourself out, and you had
best to be breed approach.
And that was the first time inthat holding company that they
had done something like that.
We are a very acquisitivecompany at Stagwell.
We are on a growth trajectory,we're a young company, we're
data-led, digital first, andfuture focused.
And when we're looking atbuying others, we are one very
(19:30):
first thing making sure it'scomplementary to what we already
have.
We don't want people to come inand try to kill each other.
That is not client-friendly,and it's not what the client
wants.
And I get involved in a lot ofthe due due diligence.
And one of the questions I askto Peter's point is walk me
through your thinking of why youget hired.
(19:51):
What is it that drives you?
What's your passion?
And I find two camps I findpeople in some agencies that Are
transactionally focused.
And then I find others whoreally want partnerships.
And it's not just about the SOWand the EBITDA.
Now it's all important toPeter's point.
(20:12):
But if the first response andthe first part of the due
diligence is about here's whatdrives me, here's why I got into
this business, here's what wedo for our clients, here's how
we've helped the client, andthen in turn helped ourselves.
That's what I look for.
And that's what makes a perfectpartner.
If you find that during thehomework phase, you will be
(20:33):
perfect in the assimilationphase.
Craig Fahle (20:35):
Well, you can tell that we've just moved to a new
office.
One of our sound panels justfell off a wall in the middle of
this.
Uh this is the great thingabout uh about recording here.
Um Kimberly, I want to get backto you on this one.
Uh, you have been on the insideof a number of of these types
of situations.
Um, what makes different firmswork together versus just
coexist sort of under one roof?
(20:55):
What how do you sort of getthese teams to mesh?
Kimberly Hoyle (20:58):
Sure.
Um I I agree.
I think the the homework phaseis incredibly important, the due
diligence um and and reallyunderstanding if you are on the
acquiring side, understandingwhat you are acquiring.
So that um, you know, theconversations around uh EPDA and
(21:19):
profitability and margin, umthat can a lot of times take uh
take precedent over who are weactually getting ready to
partner with and who are weactually getting ready to marry
in this in this transaction.
Um and I think that when youkind of skate through that
(21:43):
phase, it shows immediately.
Uh once you, once the inkdries, it it shows immediately
that there was no alignment orreal synergy in the way we do
business or the way you dobusiness and how that will
complement um each other and howultimately it will benefit the
clients on the other side ofthings.
So I think um if I could sayhumanizing the process and
(22:08):
really kind of taking therobotics out of it and saying
there are people on the otherside of this transaction who are
going to um work here, who aregoing to look at us as partners
and want to um bring us bring usin or grow with us as we grow.
Um, I think when you take thatapproach and and and realize
(22:30):
that there's a human on theother side of this, you know,
major transaction, that's whenyou get um the benefit of um an
acquisition or a merger and youyou begin to see the that growth
and the scale is was worth youknow the the effort of going
through the transaction.
Craig Fahle (22:48):
Well, I sort of want to ask one more question of
each of you, real quick, on onthis part of our discussion
here.
And that is, you know, we we'vebeen talking a lot about growth
and and mixing teams.
What do you need to tellcustomers, clients, to ensure to
them that just because you'regrowing doesn't mean they're
going to lose the attention thatthey that they maybe really
appreciated about you when youwere a smaller firm?
Peter Van Dyke (23:10):
Yeah, you know, I think that is it's that
conversation that should bediscussed at the very beginning
of an acquisition processbecause that's your value
proposition.
So it should feel seamless andnatural when you start telling
customers about this afteryou've gone through months of
due diligence and you're readyto sign the deal and possibly go
through a rebranding.
That should just feelcompletely natural because
(23:31):
you've been talking about sinceday one in that first
conversation of the why.
Um and so, you know, for thethe Stern acquisition in in
February, it really because itwas it made perfect sense for
these two companies to cometogether, that that conversation
was very easy to have for theclients that they've been
working with, many for 10, 15years, some some 20.
(23:52):
Uh, we said your your team'snot going to change, but your uh
capabilities within the teamthat you work with are gonna
expand exponentially.
And so those clients were like,wow, there's an opportunity.
One, they they see anopportunity to work with the
same people, but kind of have ummore services within the team
that they're working with.
Um we see that as a newbusiness opportunity.
(24:12):
So that's great for us when wesee that.
And so it's it's it'sdefinitely more important for
the firm that you're acquiringbecause those those are the
clients who are gonna have thethe bigger shift.
Uh, but you also the thecompany that's doing the
acquiring, you don't want yourclients ever to read about you
in the news before you've talkedto them.
That's kind of the 101 of umbest or worst practices,
whichever way you're whereyou're doing it.
(24:33):
So uh, you know, before thenews hits, we would have a
conversation with every clientsaying, hey, you're gonna see in
the news that we acquired asour agency.
Um, what this allows us to dois A, B, C, D.
Um, and you know, if you'd liketo hear more about that, we'd
love to bring them in.
And again, it was in certainacquisitions, maybe it's a
harder conversation.
Probably at larger scaleacquisitions, it's a harder
conversation.
But for us, um, the root ofthose conversations were based
(24:55):
in our very first conversationwe had about the acquisition.
So it felt very organic andseamless.
Craig Fahle (25:01):
All right.
Well, let's sort of let'sswitch over here.
Just for the interest of timehere, I do want to talk a little
bit about the industry itselfand the state of the industry,
because there's always a lot ofconcern about that.
We you mentioned, you know, AIat the beginning of this
conversation and a lot ofchanges that are taking place.
Some people are suggesting thatPR is dead, others are
suggesting that PR has been, youknow, it's never been more
(25:22):
important given the amount ofchannels that people can go to
to find information.
What do you think is moreaccurate in terms of the the
health of the profession and andits need right now?
And I'm looking at whoeverwants to go first, but I'm
thinking this county.
Peter Van Dyke (25:39):
I'm looking at Ray.
He's been talking about thisacross the nation.
Okay, and his other role aschair of PRSA.
Ray Day (25:44):
Well, yeah, there you go.
I'm also chair of PRSA, andyeah, I don't know how to say
no.
I keep taking on more and moretitles and jobs.
I have never been more excitedabout this profession and what
we provide to business and tosociety today.
And for me, it goes back tothis ongoing kind of nonsensical
discussion where we've beenasking to have a seat at the
(26:06):
table.
And you will never be asked tohave a seat at the table if
you're adding value.
And I do a lot of speaking oncampus.
I mentor a lot of people whoare starting out in this
profession.
And my number one piece ofadvice to them is be a business
partner first.
Be the best at business acumen,be able to speak the language
(26:29):
of a CFO.
And then, of course,secondarily, people assume you
know how to do communications,you know how to do all the
tactical things we do.
That's a given.
That's why you're being hired.
But be a business partner andyou are absolutely going to be
in need more than ever before.
And I see that today.
And so I think this professionis alive and well.
(26:51):
And I know we'll talk about AI.
And I think people who arestill fearing AI or worrying
about being replaced by AIreally just need to realize
we're in the year 2025 and theyneed to get up to speed.
Very true.
Peter Van Dyke (27:07):
Yeah, you know, I'm finding two things.
I think one, it's you know,it's a tool that helps you do
your job.
And there are new tools havebeen created since beginning a
time to help you do your job.
And this is just a really umquickly advancing and adapting
one.
Uh the the thing that I bothappreciate about it and both
fear about it is it's justspeeding up the process that
much more.
(27:27):
I feel like during COVID,things got quicker.
You could have 12 meetings aday because you didn't have to
drive to somebody's office.
And so suddenly what was athree-meeting day became a
12-meeting day, and you're goingback to back to back.
And and so now with AI, there'scertain processes that we've
done internally that we're nowusing AI to help us facilitate.
Um that just makes the the daygo there's so much more speed in
(27:50):
what you have to do becauseexpected because of the tools
that you have.
But what it also allows you todo is spend more time in the
areas that AI can't replace,which is being what Ray just
said is a critical thinkingpartner that you you really
can't can't train a computer todo.
And so it's allowed me to say,okay, there's these kind of
administrative things that AIcan do for me, or at least do
the first draft of it.
(28:11):
So I don't have to start from ablank screen.
But it's allowed me then to bemore present in other areas of
my job where I would be, youknow, working all day long on a
Saturday to catch up to uhbecause I didn't have tools uh
available to me to kind of speedup the administrative piece.
Craig Fahle (28:25):
Aaron Powell Wow, that's great insight, Peter.
So that's the one thing thatdrives me crazy about AI is the
compliments it pays you.
Ray Day (28:32):
And if I just add to that, since all technology, and
we we're so fixated today on AI,but if you look at the history
of technology, it's always beenabout human plus machine equals
a better world.
And the human has always beenin charge.
And one of the my favoritethings to do on stage, I was
speaking at a conference acouple of years ago, and I asked
(28:54):
a friend, I said, you know, I'mgonna get all these questions
about AI and it's gonna replaceus.
And he mailed me a veryyellowed photo or a headline of
a newspaper from 1966, and itwas a newspaper article, front
page of math teachers protestingcalculators.
Calculators were going to putmath teachers out of business.
(29:16):
How we can't let this happen.
The world is ending, and whathas been the result?
No, human plus machine hasequaled a better world, and
that's what we have to keep inmind.
And for us in communicationsand PR, what we really need to
do is move from this as aproductivity play to a high
value play.
Yeah, we can dabble around andwe can eliminate low-value tasks
(29:38):
and we should, but the realopportunity is how do you make
this higher impact, higher valueto help clients and businesses
grow and get better?
Kimberly Hoyle (29:49):
I agree.
And I think it goes back tothat in the space of being a
partner, right?
With your being a businesspartner to your client.
So you should be thinking abouthow can we bring more value?
How can we make um how can wemake the engagement better and
(30:09):
how can we enhance it?
And it should always be sort ofthis um proactive thinking when
you are working, not as aconsultant, but when you take on
your client's business as yourown.
And you're always looking athow do you grow, what tools do
we need, what tools are going tobe necessary for that growth.
And I think it, you know,coming into the um into the
(30:33):
client engagement with thatmindset of just deepening the
relationship, reallyunderstanding the bit their
business at a micro and macrolevel, and then understanding
how uh these tools andtechnology will enhance um not
only the work that you're doingfor them, but so that you
understand to Ray's point about,you know, be able to speak the
(30:53):
finance language.
You don't have to be a CFO, butyou need to understand, you
know, if those are drivers fortheir business, you need to
understand that language.
And so to me, AI is nodifferent, right?
You and I think from what I'veseen, clients are um kind of
looking at their businesspartners to help educate them in
(31:13):
some ways on how um they mightgain efficiencies or or better
level of service with um withthe technology.
So I think being in that um,you know, in that showing
yourself in that light as thatpartner, that from a business
development perspective, what Ithink of, I'm looking at organic
growth, and then we can go, youknow, we can go deeper and and
(31:35):
have a longer, longer standingrelationship.
Craig Fahle (31:38):
I I think one of the concerns that that people
have in this business about AI,though, is that you know, we
talk about, you know, am I gonnabe replaced by AI?
But there may be some clientsor or customers, potential
customers out there that lookat, you know, the availability
of Chat GTP and say, I don'tneed somebody to write that.
I can just do it myself.
How do you respond to that sortof mindset about I guess that
sort of undervalues a lot of ofwhat we bring to the table?
(32:00):
And and I say that, I'm notgonna put those words in any of
your mouths, but I thinksometimes people do sort of
undervalue the thought processthat goes into proper messaging.
Peter Van Dyke (32:09):
Yeah, I'd say that potential customer is
looking for a transactionalrelationship, and that's not the
business that we're in.
Um yeah, you can put, I don'tknow, a bunch of talking points
into a chat GPT and it gives youa press release.
Um, we we had a situation witha reporter that clearly took a
press release and put it into AIto create an article that we
noticed when it was in the inthe paper.
(32:31):
Um, I forgot about that.
Yeah.
And so, you know, you stillneed the human to control the
machine.
Um, and so that's not ourclient.
The the clients that we workwith are the ones that want to
call us at five o'clock and say,I have this really complicated
issue and I need to talk to youabout it.
And and that goes back to whatRay was saying.
It it becomes where's where'sthe high value in this
relationship?
Because the low value wasreally never what we were
(32:53):
engaging, engaged to do.
That was just a part of thefacilitation of the high value
work.
And so if a customer said it tome, I'd say, well, go find
another firm.
And I'd be totally fine withthat.
Ray Day (33:04):
Yeah, and one example, we have a client right now that
has we're helping them withcrisis.
And we need the criticalthinking of people who have been
through crisis and crisis andcrisis.
But what we're using AI to dois ingest 10 years of this
particular crisis, what's thehistory?
And we're asking, we're makingAI our wingman or our wing
(33:26):
person and saying from apredictability standpoint, from
a trend standpoint, when thishappens, what typically is the
outcome?
And who do we need tocommunicate with first?
Who is biggest, who's going tobe the most impacted, and what
do we need to know?
That's human plus machineequals better crisis
communications.
Kimberly Hoyle (33:46):
Yeah.
And I think remembering thatit's a tool.
It's not a replacement, it'snot, you know, a substitute, it
is a tool.
And that's I mean, it's just tome, it's that plain.
Uh, and when you see it workthat way, um it clients
understand you know where itfits into the overall strategy.
But at the end of the day, it'sa tool.
(34:07):
And yes, you still need thehuman element, and you you
there's no replacing that.
Craig Fahle (34:13):
All right.
The human element, we need totalk about that just a little
bit because uh again, hiring theright people, Peter, you talked
about it early on in thisconversation, how important that
is.
You're still directly involvedin that process here at VVK.
Um, where are we having troublehiring right now?
What roles are becomingdifficult to fill, and what
skills are you looking for thatyou're perhaps not seeing in the
(34:35):
quantity that you'd like is anice way to put it.
Um, who wants to go first onthat one?
I see a smile.
Kim, come on now.
Kimberly Hoyle (34:43):
So I I think that um, you know, the the
industry has evolved.
Um, and then when you seeconsulting agencies, uh firms
like Deloitte and and BostonConsulting Group um acquiring um
marketing and data, you know,companies to expand their
(35:04):
services, the competitive fieldjust gets it's gotten bigger,
right?
And so the level of thinkingthat you need, it's not just
someone who uh study publicrelations or journalism.
You really need those strategicthinkers, those who um
understand public policy, thosewho understand economics, those
who understand um the strategythat goes behind developing a
(35:30):
key message and not just thecreative side of it or just you
know high-level talking pointsor bullet points.
So what I've seen is um reallytrying to, from a talent
perspective, trying to um get alittle bit of get away from, not
fully, but just in a little bitaway from the the traditional
(35:50):
um PR and journalism uh umdegrees and and really looking
at those that are uh go a littlebit more deeper because I think
that's what the clients arerequiring today, that you be um
a more well-rounded partner thatcan support their business
needs.
Craig Fahle (36:10):
You've been you uh you're involved with PRSA as
well, um, which you know meansyou're dealing with people at
every level of their career.
Um where are you seeingweaknesses?
Ray Day (36:19):
I think the model has changed within agencies, the
hiring model, the peoplemanagement model.
And it used to be a pyramidwhere you'd have, you know, the
really, really uh senior peoplewho were either administrative
or they were subject matterexperts, and you had this middle
layer that were the, you know,all the terms we put on agency
people when they've served thereso long.
And then we had the the reallybig bottom layer, which was the
(36:44):
cultivating, the farm team thatwas always coming through.
I think the pyramid has turnedinto a barbell.
And where I see client need ison the one side, more demand
than ever for subject matterexperts.
Deep, deep expertise.
Either you've been through thewar on crisis, or you have deep,
deep relationships in publicaffairs or in state government
(37:08):
or in city government, whateverit is, people want that
expertise and that experience.
We've stripped out the middlelayer.
We don't need the checkersanymore and the people with the
alphabet soup titles, but we doneed that constant flow of
people at the entrepreneuriallevel.
And for me, and I've been inthis business a while, whether I
(37:29):
was in-house or today, I alwayslook at three attributes in
anyone that I'm hiring.
And I, like Peter, like to bethe last word on particularly
the senior hires.
But the three things I look forof people who will be
successful in this business arestrategic, aggressive, and I
mean aggressive, that this is afull contact sport.
(37:49):
We're we play to win.
Whether you're in comms or PRor in public affairs, this is
hand-to-hand combat.
And we're here to help theclient win.
And then connected, which goesto that relationship business.
There's a reason we sometimescall this PR, that R is
strategic, and we need peoplewho know that and who can
cultivate those relationships.
Peter Van Dyke (38:08):
Yeah, so there's two pieces.
Um one is a little bit of whatRay just spoke to.
Um, and and that is the thearea around the strategy piece
that's that's a little bitchallenging to hire for.
Um, but it's interesting.
I'm involved highly involved inWaynesate University.
I chaired the board over thecommunications school, and Ray's
involved in the board becausehe doesn't have enough to do.
(38:29):
Um, so he volunteers there aswell, which we appreciate.
And I was involved with thecommunications department on uh
reviewing the curriculum andlooking for some changes to
curriculum to reflect the futureof our industry.
And there's two pieces when Raytalked about re uh
entrepreneurialism.
There's no class in thecommunications school at Wayne
State, and there still isn't.
So I still have that critiqueand I'm I'm working with them on
(38:51):
it, that teaches basic businessprinciples and practices.
And I said, if if you're gonnaadvance advance in your career
in any career, and the thecollege at Wayne State is fine
performing in communicationarts.
I'm like, you can be aballerina or a PR person.
I don't care.
If you're advancing yourcareer, at some point you're
gonna manage a budget, you'regonna manage HR, you're gonna
manage a team.
Um, and there's not one classat Wayne State that teaches that
(39:14):
um in the PR department or inthe communications department.
Um, and I remember when Iacquired the first agency I
acquired, Bergmuir had anassociates, and I had no idea
what the hell I was doing.
I was like 34 years old.
And I really thought at thatpoint of going to get my uh
associates in business at McCombCommunity College, because I
didn't have time for MBA.
Like I'm running this new firm,I'm growing the clients, I'm
(39:35):
integrating new clients.
I don't have time to go to MBAor because I get an MBA.
That's that's I just didn'thave the capacity for it.
But I literally thought goingto get like associates in
business, just like learn thebasics of business because
nobody had taught me other thanlearning on site a bit at the
agency where I'd worked.
The other piece of it, which isum much more tactical, is uh
project management tools.
They don't teach projectmanagement.
(39:55):
And it's such a core part ofthe work that we do,
particularly at agencies.
Um Of how to use projectmanagement software, how to
product manage a team, how towork with a team on deadlines.
And it doesn't have to be afull course, but I think it
should be a chapter.
Um, and I said it's you know,we expect that of every team
member here to really use somany different layers of product
management software to manageour clients and our team
(40:17):
internally.
And that's taught on site.
And I'm like, why isn't thattaught at school?
This is pretty applicable toany degree or any um profession
that you're gonna graduate in.
Um so you know, this is alittle bit more at the entry
level, but uh entrepreneurialismand product management will
carry you all the way through.
And I'm not seeing those beingtaught in the PR departments.
Craig Fahle (40:36):
Some of us gravitate towards those things
more so than others.
But uh you know, Ray, I want toget back to something you said
here, and we're running out oftime, so I sort of want to get
to this real fast.
But you you mentioned, youknow, that this is you're you're
in it to win it.
This is a fight, you know, andand this is uh sometimes a
stressful profession.
Uh agencies can be particularlystressful just because you're
bouncing so many differentclients, you're going from
(40:58):
subject to subject, burnout is areal thing.
And part of that stuff that yousuggest that you're really
lacking, that subject matterexpertise, that's just
experience.
That's just knowledge thatcomes from years and years on
the job.
And if people are burning out,you're not going to have some of
that experience that you need.
So, what needs to be done tomake sure that this is an
industry, especially agencylife, that, you know, is
(41:20):
sustainable for 20, 30 yearcareers?
Ray Day (41:22):
Absolutely.
It goes to another piece ofadvice when I give to young
people when I speak on campus.
I have my top 10 list of thingsthat you need to think about.
And number one is love or leavewhat you do.
This is not a job.
You fall in love with thisbusiness.
And you know, a lot of timespeople are asking me,
particularly young people,should I go in-house?
(41:44):
Should I go agency?
Should I go nonprofit?
Should I go government?
And I say, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Try everything out, and youwill quickly decide what you
fall in love with.
And if you love what you do,you will be world-class at it.
And that is the secret tosuccess.
And I've used it in my ownlife.
(42:05):
I had a role in-house that Ihad just spoken on campus, and I
was driving back to work, and Ithought about what I told the
young people, and I said, youknow, I don't really love what
I'm doing right now.
And I repotted myself and Isaid, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna
do something that I really love.
So my my biggest advice to allof us, whether we're in-house,
(42:26):
whether we're agency, whetherwe're a student, whether we're
up and coming, whatever we'redoing, love or leave what you're
doing and be world-class at itonce you fall in love with it.
Peter Van Dyke (42:36):
You know, I can't speak to um other
agencies, but when we started VVK, we have this culture book
that we that we use and it goesthrough our principles and our
culture, everything from kind ofum our our core values to
project management.
And and one, there's a coupleof things in the culture book um
that relate to uh basicallyexperiencing joy in your job
(42:56):
every day.
And at V VK, if you're notexperiencing joy in your job,
then maybe find another job.
Craig Fahle (43:01):
Um and I hope uh Some of us thrive on adrenaline
too.
So I'm a I'm a big uh, youknow, I like navigating the
crisis space when I can.
Peter Van Dyke (43:09):
Yeah.
So you know, Laura Les Bronce,our senior vice president in
Michigan, has said, no, she'sworked at large companies, large
global companies, smallnonprofits all over the country.
And she's I never workedsomewhere that's that's less
toxic um um than than V VK.
It's just, you know, we welaugh through problems, you
know, we we have fun everysingle day.
(43:30):
And it is a tough job.
It's it's it can be a littlechaotic.
You kind of feel like you're ina hundred places at once and
you have, you know, 12 Zoommeetings a day.
And if you can't figure out howto kind of laugh through that
process, then it is it's gonnabe really tough.
Um and so I I think it's againcore to that culture is you
know, what's the environment youwant to create?
And then how do you helpsupport your team members in
that environment to avoid thatburnout?
Craig Fahle (43:52):
I want to get your take on that too, Kim.
Kimberly Hoyle (43:54):
I agree.
I think um leadership is reallyimportant in this, right?
Um I think that I've been in atoxic agency environment and I
I've seen how it impacts, youknow, the the work from all
angles and and how uh and I'veseen people leave, you know, who
(44:15):
have just not even been in theindustry for five years.
Um and so I think that when youhave, you know, if you have a
culture book like V VK and youactually um and it's not just
shelfware, but it's actually theway that you do business, and
it really matters, um, then Ithink people that, you know,
(44:37):
people appreciate that there's,you know, there's thought put
into um how I'm going to spend,you know, 60 to 70% of my time
in an office with colleagues andpeople who are not my family.
Um all of that matters and itand it shows up in the output,
it shows up in how we treat eachother, you know, in a corporate
(44:58):
setting.
And I think it can help ithelps certainly with burnout
because if you are getting up inthe morning and you're like, oh
God, I gotta go there today,it's you know, you the burnout
comes very quickly before youeven have enough on your resume
to say, you know, I've beenthere, done that, and that's why
I'm over it.
(45:18):
Um, so I think leadership playsa significant role in um
mitigating burnout with withtheir staff.
Craig Fahle (45:28):
Yeah.
Well, so there are some of usthat enjoy being, you know,
bashed around like a ping pongball, um, you know, from client
to client on a daily basis.
It sort of thrive on it.
But uh okay.
They love what you do.
It it can be a lot of funsometimes, and it's certainly
energizing um in certainsituations.
But all right, so we've gotabout a minute left here, and I
(45:48):
have one last question, um, andit's sort of open-ended, and
you're gonna be annoyed by it.
But one piece of advice thatyou would give to an agency
owner who is listening rightnow.
Peter Van Dyke (46:02):
Starting with me.
Craig Fahle (46:03):
Starting with whoever wants to go first.
I told you you'd be annoyed.
Peter Van Dyke (46:09):
This is tough.
Um I'm trying to repeat thingsthat we've we've already said.
Um, but I'm gonna I'm justgonna take what Ray just said.
You gotta love what you do.
Um, you know, it's it's hardwork.
And um, I have the the greatfortune of this is all I've ever
wanted to do.
And so I really don't know muchdifferent, and I and I love it.
And you know, I've been prettyprivileged to uh kind of have
(46:30):
this role at this company.
Um but you know, if you don'tlove what you do, you gotta
leave.
So sorry, Ray, I took yours.
Ray Day (46:37):
Uh I was part of a research study with an HR group
once, and the what we weretrying to determine is what's
the half-life of a skill.
And the end conclusion wasthree to five years.
So any skill we have, any pointwe are in an agency or in a
team, we become half obsoleteevery three to five years.
So my advice to agencies istake that to heart.
That means you as a leader, youas an agency, your team, you
(47:01):
have to reinvent.
And don't be afraid ofreinventing, embrace it.
But every three to five years,we're now in this warp speed
cycle.
And make sure you stay on topof what's next.
What is my agency going to needto be in three to five years so
that my value proposition isone that perpetuates growth?
Craig Fahle (47:21):
That's weird.
This seems like something thatthe advertising agency needs to
think about every once in awhile.
So um you see like overreliance on a certain client,
and all of a sudden thatcompany's gone.
All right, go ahead.
Kimberly Hoyle (47:32):
Uh so yeah, I agree with both Peter and and
Ray.
Um and I would just add tothat, um listen to your people.
Um, I think that it's importantto, you know, for people to be
able to um have a voice, notnecessarily, you know, open it
up and and we're all kind ofcommunal management, but I think
(47:55):
listening to your staff andlistening to those who are on
the front lines every day umwould would go a long way for um
for growth and sustainabilitywith your staff.
Craig Fahle (48:06):
Well, is there anything that I have sort of
missed in this conversation thatany of you wants to sort of
chime in on real quick before wewrap this up today?
Ray Day (48:14):
Important discussion.
And again, I just kind of endwhere I started.
This is I've never been moreexcited about this business from
a comm standpoint, from anagency standpoint, and from a
business standpoint.
And if you're not excited andyou're in this business, you
probably need to ask yourselfthat question love or lead what
(48:36):
you do.
But this is an exciting time,and we should all be having a
blast.
Craig Fahle (48:41):
All right.
Go ahead, Peter.
Peter Van Dyke (48:42):
Yeah, you know, I think one of my favorite
quotes, and Craig has heard mesay that many times, it's from
my mentor, Bob Berg, but it'scordless business as well.
Is when you need a friend, it'stoo late to make one.
And so, you know, I've I Iactually almost interviewed for
Ray about 15 years ago and nevermade it to the last interview.
Um I never knew about it.
I I bowed out because I knew uhFord was not my future.
(49:06):
Um and but you know, yearslater, you know, I met Ray.
Um, you know, he's been a greatfriend to me and a great mentor
as we've developed V VK, youknow, Kim and I have seen each
other, you know, many a timesthroughout the Detroit business
community and really just satdown to break bread about a week
ago for the first time.
Um and uh and I said, wait aminute, I have a great
opportunity to uh to have aconversation with you on this
(49:28):
podcast.
So, you know, it's uh Detroit'sa small community, but but it's
a small global community aswell.
And I think, you know, it'swhen you need a friend state to
make one.
So make sure you make thosefriends along the way.
Craig Fahle (49:39):
Any parting words, Kim?
Kimberly Hoyle (49:41):
Uh I would just say, you know, relationships
matter.
And uh it's it's hard tocultivate real relationships,
you know, via Zoom and umdigitally.
So I think, you know, gettingback into um the office and
really kind of engaging in a waythat that we kind of since
(50:01):
COVID, we've been a littlehesitant to do it.
But I think um relationshipsmatter and people do business
with people.
And so if they don't, you know,if they don't know you, then
it's gonna be really hard to todo business and grow.
And so I would just um reallyput emphasis on cultivating, you
know, nurturing and and seekingout new uh opportunities for
(50:24):
for deeper relationship.
Craig Fahle (50:26):
Well, something that's I've just noticed
recently, and it's taken alittle while, but I'm starting
to see people embracing the ideaof coming back to the office,
which as we coax them back ingently, um, instead of just
saying everybody's back fivedays a week, it seems to be
creating its own momentum, whichis kind of nice.
Well, I would like to thank, ofcourse, Ray Day and Kimberly
Hoyle and Peter Van Dyke forjoining us today.
(50:46):
We certainly appreciate it.
Wonderful conversation.
Thanks so much.
Ray Day (50:50):
Thank you.
Craig Fahle (50:51):
All right, this is the V VK Podcast.
We'll see you again soon.
And that's going to do it forthe V VK Podcast today.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, we'd love to hear
your thoughts.
Give us your feedback, ideas,guest suggestions, or just let
us know what you're thinkinganytime.
The email address is hello atvvkagency.com.
(51:11):
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thanks again for spending partof your day with us.
We'll see you next time on theVVK Podcast.
Hey greetings and welcome to the V VK Podcast.
I'm your host, Craig Folly.
Today, we're digging into whatPR agency growth really looks
like.
From independence tointegration, from acquisitions
to industry shifts, and fromtalent challenges to the future
of AI and automation.
We've got a packed conversationahead on the VVK Podcast.
(00:38):
Hey greetings once again.
Thanks for being here today.
And joining us are three voiceswho bring very different,
equally valuable perspectives onthe state of the public
relations industry.
Peter Van Dyke, of course, isthe CEO of VVK.
He's grown the agencyindependently and is now
expanding through theacquisition of Stern Strategy.
(00:59):
We also have with us KimberlyHoyle, a seasoned strategist
with deep experience insidemajor agencies and a real keen
sense of where the business isheaded.
And also Ray Day, Vice Chair atStagwell, offering a wide-angle
view of how the communicationslandscape is evolving across
clients, talent, and technology.
So we've got a packed show, alot to get to today.
I would like to welcome Peter,Kimberly, and Ray.
(01:22):
Thanks for being with us.
Thanks, Craig.
Great to be here.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about uh agency life,
growth in agency life.
And this is going to be someinsider baseball here, but
that's okay.
It's actually an importantdiscussion to have.
We're also going to have alittle bit of an opportunity to
talk about what's working,what's not, what's next for
agencies.
(01:42):
Um, and so we'll get right intothis.
And we really want to start outtalking a bit about growth.
Uh VVK has obviously seen somesome growth recently.
Uh Peter, you've been buildingthis agency independently.
Uh, you recently acquired Sternstrategies, and we folded them
into the VVK family.
Uh Kim, you've been insidelarge agencies.
(02:02):
You've been working on, youknow, getting people together,
finding different companies toto look at and bring into the
family and your career as well.
And Ray, you've beenintegrating agencies at Stagwell
at a big scale.
Um, this is your company isjust it's staggering in terms of
how large it is becoming.
Um at this point, are we reallyeven talking about the same
(02:24):
sort of business?
Uh, when we look at a companylike VVK, Cameron, we look like
what you've been doing and whereStagwell is where what are we
seeing?
Are these the same industries?
Peter, I'm gonna let you sortof look at that first.
Peter Van Dyke (02:36):
Yeah, I mean, there are different scales of
businesses, but I know it'ssomething that Ray and I agree
on because we've talked aboutthis.
Uh while the finances aredifferent, I think the core root
of the work that we do is thesame, especially when you're
scaling um at a global scale orlocal scale in acquisitions.
And the core root of that is inrelationships.
And so, you know, it's thefinances you can always work out
(02:58):
in a spreadsheet, therelationships that you develop
with uh those who you are youare acquiring, with the team
you're integrating.
Uh, that can't be mapped andcan't be added and can't be
subtracted.
That is um personal time andeffort and investment, uh, and
really understand where thecultural nuances are and if that
will work uh with the growthand the scale of your company.
So you have to start withreally knowing your company's
(03:21):
culture and and and so you canunderstand how to kind of
compare and contrast with thosethat you are going to work with,
whether it's one new employeeor a major acquisition, and then
really map out how that willintegrate and if it will not
only work internally with yourcompany, but will also resonate
with your clients.
Um and so, you know, again,very different scales.
Uh VVK is pretty local with abit of a national presence.
(03:45):
Um Ray works at a very globalscale, and Kim has worked uh
across the nation.
And I would think and I wouldhope that the root of all of
this work is based inrelationships.
Craig Fahle (03:56):
Uh but who wants to sort of tag off of that one
there?
Go ahead, Kim.
Kimberly Hoyle (04:00):
No, I agree.
I think um, you know, when yougo into the the the thought
process of MA, especially inthis space, you're thinking um
you're either scaling for talentor capabilities.
But I think um therelationships and the
integration piece of it is themost important, right?
So making sure that um you'reculturally aligned, making sure
(04:23):
that those employees who aregoing to stay have an
understanding of what theacquisition, what the
acquisition even means and andhow it um how it will kind of
unfold for clients.
Um and then on the client side,making sure that the clients
understand that it while you areexpanding your capabilities and
(04:44):
and the talent bench, um, thatthe foundation remains the same
and the level of service and andand how you um engage and
manage your clients.
Craig Fahle (04:54):
Yeah, I I think we're gonna get into that in a
little bit too, sort of thatthat part of this conversation
in just a little bit.
But Ray, I want to get yoursort of take on this too, and
what we're seeing right now andand uh and how you manage that.
Ray Day (05:05):
Yeah, and I I'll start out and say which one of these
people is not like the other.
And uh I come from being thenon-agency person.
Most of my career has beenin-house.
I spent 28 years at Ford, 10leading communications, and two
and a half at IBM.
So I am wired as the clientperson.
I still think like the client.
And I I agree wholeheartedlywith what Peter said about we're
(05:31):
in a relationship business.
And the reason that when I wasa client, I hired an agency was
to give me what I didn't havein-house.
And those relationships turninto partnerships.
And you know, we've beentalking, and I know what we'll
talk about today is is theagency dead with AI coming and
are we going to be replaced bymachines?
(05:52):
This is always going to be arelationship business.
It's always going to be aboutpartnership.
And when you hear me talk aboutagency, I will always use the
term agency partner because froma client standpoint, that's
always what I want (06:06):
a partner to help me be smarter, think more
strategically, and bring me whatI didn't have or I don't have
naturally in-house.
So very, very much I think weare a growth industry because
business has become so complextoday.
And we need those outside inpartnerships more than ever.
Craig Fahle (06:26):
Well, at what point, though, does it become
difficult to manage?
Because, you know, again, VVK,as Peter suggested, we're still
very localized.
Um, you know, we're growing,but at a responsible rate.
We're still making sure that wecan maintain those
relationships as best we can andand not lose sight of that sort
of customer focus that we need.
Is there a point where, though,that becomes difficult to do um
(06:48):
as as sort of an independentagency where you're growing to a
point where that's gonna getout of control?
Ray Day (06:55):
Scale is good, but you never want to lose your secret
sauce.
What brought you to the yourpoint where you were able to
scale, you need to maintainthat.
So whatever it is you uniquelybring to clients, preserve that.
And that means probably the topperson in the agency won't be
as hands-on with as many clientslong term, but he or she is
(07:18):
going to hire and bring intalent that still maintains that
secret sauce, whether it's V VKor whether it's others, that
really, really delivers.
You pay people money becauseyou need expertise that you
don't have.
Those are relationshipstypically.
That's expertise you don'thave.
That's a different way ofthinking.
(07:39):
You know, I when I spent 30plus years in-house, I know when
you work inside of a company,you can become very insular.
That's the beauty of bringingpeople in who have different
perspectives, differentrelationships, and frankly, a
candor that you can't always getin-house.
People are willing to shake youand say, you're headed in the
wrong direction.
Let me save you from yourself.
Craig Fahle (08:01):
Is there a r point though where, you know,
obviously growth is driven,revenue is driven by growth?
Uh, you know, you make somechoices.
Is there a point where arevenue point where it's
difficult to be independent anylonger?
Ray Day (08:15):
I think it's how you define independent.
I think when you look at bigagencies today, and this has
been happening, you know, wehave a lot of consolidation
going on in holding companiestoday.
When you look at some of theicons of our industry, that
consolidation is because bigisn't necessarily better.
And I worked with a lot of bigagencies, holding companies my
(08:37):
entire career.
And what I'd never wanted wasnumber one, big company
politics, big company fat, andbig company slowness.
And so where I do think I seethe most growth in agencies
today is in the medium to thesmall size, the very
individualized agencies.
But what people want is thatcombination where you can still
(09:00):
provide end-to-end services.
What has haunted some of thebig holding companies today is
they've grown, but they've grownthe overhead, and they perhaps
have forgotten what reallyallowed them to grow in the
first place, which was clientservice.
Craig Fahle (09:16):
Kim, I want to sort of get your thoughts uh on this
whole thing as well.
I mean, part of your job hasbeen making sure that, you know,
the the people that you'regetting together have cultures
that are going to fit, have sortof uh the ability to mesh
together without creating sortof these internal politics he
was discussing.
What's the biggest challengethere?
Um, because again, as you growas an agency, I mean there's
(09:37):
always going to be differentpressures on that agency.
You're gonna have less time todeal with individual clients
than you did.
So what's the sort of thebiggest challenge and the things
you look for in determiningwhether or not there's a natural
progression to grow?
Kimberly Hoyle (09:49):
Yeah.
Uh so I think um one of thechallenges is when you begin
that the integration process,um, you typically you're
thinking about it from a, youknow, the most senior level
executives who are at the tableand kind of um facilitating the
deal, finalizing the deal, anddetermining how um how you're
(10:11):
going to um engage and interactwith each other internally.
Um what I have seen thatbecomes a challenge is when you
do that and you don't thinkabout that management layer who
really has the ear of thepractitioners who are actually
doing the work, right?
So you get their buy-in.
And when you have that, thenthat ideally will carry over
(10:34):
into the client relationshipsand how how you're still
supporting and servicing theclients, because at the end of
the day, that's what reallymatters.
But when you don't payattention to that that layer of
management, who can really seethemselves in this integration,
they see where they fit in, andthen they're able to carry those
messages down to their teams sothat they too see where they
(10:57):
fit in in this integration andthat their work matters and what
they're doing matters, and it'sonly going to get opportunity
for growth.
Um I think when you I'veexperienced where when you miss
that, uh it can really theintegration really throws off
the the end product and howyou're supporting your clients,
and then you start to see clientchurn, you start to see
(11:19):
employees walk away and and itjust kind of falls apart.
But so I think in in the um inthe grand scheme of things, what
I look for is the ability forum management, the senior
management to say this is a umsort of an all hands on deck in
some way um effort to make surethat those who are going to be
(11:43):
here, those that we value, thosewho are going to be supporting
the clients on a day-to-daybasis, um see themselves in this
integration and see themselvesas a part of it, because that
again, that will determine howwe continue to service and
support our clients.
Craig Fahle (11:57):
Well, so so Peter, I I do want to bring this back
in-house a little bit, talk abit about VVK, because when when
this company started, you know,there were the three founders,
uh, a couple of employees, um, alot of clients.
So I knew there was going to bea certain amount of growth that
the company had to do in termsof personnel uh just to service
those clients that we did bringon board in those early days.
Um, but talk a little bit abouta couple of major decisions,
(12:20):
pivotal decisions in your mindthat sort of accelerated that
trajectory in a in a natural,healthy way, as opposed to just,
you know, sort of slowlycreeping along.
Peter Van Dyke (12:30):
Sure.
So I I think in the um thefirst two and a half years of
organic growth before the sternacquisition, um it really it's
no different in many ways intohow we approach the stern
acquisition.
It was every every person ispivotable, pivotal, pardon me,
to the success of the company.
Um and when when we dointerviews at V VK, you know,
we're pretty direct about whoour what our culture is, who our
(12:51):
clients are, and how thosethings have to work together.
Um, I often say, I'm usuallyinvolved in the final interviews
of of most of our team members.
Um and in those interviews, I Ikind of double down on the fact
that I often say we're acustomer service company and PR
and video is our product, um,kind of like Uber is a
technology company and kindmobility is their product.
(13:14):
Uh, because at the end of theday, if our customers aren't
here, then we're not here.
And so our team has tounderstand going in that they
walk in thinking about how do Iserve the customer best this
day, and they walk out thinkingabout how I serve the customer
best tomorrow.
And if they don't have thatcustomer service mindset, then
they're not going to besuccessful at this agency.
And frankly, I think probablyin most agency environments, uh,
(13:35):
they won't be successful.
Um, so I think it's reallyinstilling um a culture from a
number of different standpoints.
We also have, we leave a lot ofvalues and principles in this
agency where are reallyimportant to us.
Um, but that customer servicepiece is really important.
So in those early days, reallyit was all about hiring really
well.
And we were, we were very umintentional about it, but I'll
(13:55):
also say very lucky.
You know, we hired a lot ofpeople who are um smarter than
me, and they were able to jumpin and lead these clients um in
a way that felt very seamless.
Um, but that all started withhaving real honest conversations
about um what our principlesare and how we lead from a
client standpoint.
Um and I'll say, you know, whenwe when we brought in the Stern
(14:16):
acquisition, that was not onour uh 2025 plans this year.
Um but you don't, you know,when we get a good opportunity
in front of you, you you go forit.
Um and I remember, you know,pivotal, pivotal moment there,
uh, and Ned Ward, who's oursenior vice president over our
national team, talks about thisa lot.
Um, he was talking to fivedifferent agencies, everything
(14:37):
from larger national globalagencies to some smaller across
the nation.
Uh, and when my first interviewwith him and then his two PR
senior PR directors, um, Jen andStephanie, the first question I
asked is, you know, this isgonna be kind of scary to you.
You guys have, each of you haveworked here for 15, 18, 20
years.
What are your fears and how canI help mitigate them in this
(14:59):
process?
And they said there was noother company that asked him
that question.
They mostly said, What do theclient contracts look like?
You know, what's what's yourprofit margin on each service?
They went to all the numbers,all the details.
And I went in kind of wonderingwho they are as people and what
their kind of fears andchallenges are in this process.
Because if I understood those,uh, and then I can also take
(15:21):
those and kind of match them toour agency values and principles
and help mitigate those fearsbased upon how we operate.
I knew the rest would work.
I wasn't too worried aboutthat.
The numbers, again,spreadsheets figure numbers out
for us.
Uh, the the relationship pieceum uh is a little bit more
difficult and takes more timeand and really understanding
kind of what makes that persontick and how you can work with
(15:42):
them.
Um, so I I think you know,those two the the pivotal
pivotal moments for us have allbeen around our hiring.
Um uh we're we're apeople-powered company.
And so that's the mostimportant thing you do.
Craig Fahle (15:54):
Well, okay, I want to get into this for just a
second because you mentionedthat this was not on your bingo
card for for the for when ithappened, right?
Um so why?
Was there was there something,a gap that you were trying to
fill in and just saying at somepoint we need to do this?
And then it's just sort of fellinto our your lap.
I don't want to say thatbecause that's not exactly how
it happens, but kind of well,yeah.
But I mean, is this somethingthat you always intended to do
(16:16):
with V VK?
Peter Van Dyke (16:18):
It was.
Um, you know, I think we we gowhere our customers customers
demand us to go.
So our clients, we have amazingclients in in Michigan.
Uh many of them have a reallyhigh statewide profile and we're
looking to build a nationalprofile.
Uh this is some work that wewere doing on their behalf, um,
but I knew we could do itbetter.
And I knew we certainly didn'thave the skill set relationships
(16:38):
with national reporters andnational publications and
national conference planners uhto do that work successfully in
the long run.
Uh but this was in my like twoto three year vision.
You know, where it's it's it'sa bit of a demand, it's not a
high demand, we'll get there,maybe a strategic strategic hire
here and there.
Uh and then when the Sternopportunity came to me through a
(16:59):
broker, Janet Tyler, who isvery well known in Michigan and
nationally, uh, I was ready tohit delete on the email and I
looked at the subject line.
Subject lines are veryimportant.
Um, so I looked at the subjectline and it talked about a
national thought leadershipexecutive visibility
organization that works withclients that are directly in our
industry verticals.
Uh and I said, this kind oflooks too good to be true.
(17:21):
And so that was October of2024, and then by February 28th,
we had acquired uh the firm.
So it was a really quickprocess, but I think it was so
quick because it was such agreat alignment.
Craig Fahle (17:34):
Well, I uh I want to get Kim and Ray's perspective
on sort of that sort of similarissue here in just a second.
Ray, I'm gonna start with youfor just a second because you
know you're constantlyintegrating agencies at
Stagwell.
So what makes an acquisitionsomething that actually adds
something rather than just youknow adding headcount to a
company?
So so what are some of the redflags that you're looking out
(17:55):
for before you decide whether ornot to go that route?
Ray Day (17:57):
Yeah, and I'll I'll build on what Peter just talked
about.
It's the homework phase.
And the assimilation happensvery seamlessly if you've done
your homework during the buyingprocess.
And when I joined Stagwell fiveyears ago, we were 20 agencies
worldwide.
Today we're 75.
We went from a private companyto a public company.
And I worked with some of thebig hold codes and we learned
(18:23):
what we liked and what we didn'tlike.
And my bosses worked with someof the big hold codes, and we
learned what we liked and wedidn't like.
And what we didn't like waswhere the various entities
within a holding company triedto kill each other.
And I remember when I was atFord and we dealt with a very,
very large, well-known holdingcompany that everyone here would
know about, but I won't uhdisclose them.
(18:45):
I remember calling the CEO oneday and saying, Martin, uh this
is a good thing.
I think you just gave it awayright there.
Perhaps I said, uh, this iscrazy.
Um you I've got my ownpolitics, and now I've got all
your your agencies warringagainst each other, and they
keep telling me, I keep tellingthem, here's what our business
need is, and they keep tellingme where it falls within the PL.
(19:06):
And I said, Martin, I don'tcare.
Keep your politics to yourself,sort yourself out, and you had
best to be breed approach.
And that was the first time inthat holding company that they
had done something like that.
We are a very acquisitivecompany at Stagwell.
We are on a growth trajectory,we're a young company, we're
data-led, digital first, andfuture focused.
And when we're looking atbuying others, we are one very
(19:30):
first thing making sure it'scomplementary to what we already
have.
We don't want people to come inand try to kill each other.
That is not client-friendly,and it's not what the client
wants.
And I get involved in a lot ofthe due due diligence.
And one of the questions I askto Peter's point is walk me
through your thinking of why youget hired.
(19:51):
What is it that drives you?
What's your passion?
And I find two camps I findpeople in some agencies that Are
transactionally focused.
And then I find others whoreally want partnerships.
And it's not just about the SOWand the EBITDA.
Now it's all important toPeter's point.
(20:12):
But if the first response andthe first part of the due
diligence is about here's whatdrives me, here's why I got into
this business, here's what wedo for our clients, here's how
we've helped the client, andthen in turn helped ourselves.
That's what I look for.
And that's what makes a perfectpartner.
If you find that during thehomework phase, you will be
(20:33):
perfect in the assimilationphase.
Craig Fahle (20:35):
Well, you can tell that we've just moved to a new
office.
One of our sound panels justfell off a wall in the middle of
this.
Uh this is the great thingabout uh about recording here.
Um Kimberly, I want to get backto you on this one.
Uh, you have been on the insideof a number of of these types
of situations.
Um, what makes different firmswork together versus just
coexist sort of under one roof?
(20:55):
What how do you sort of getthese teams to mesh?
Kimberly Hoyle (20:58):
Sure.
Um I I agree.
I think the the homework phaseis incredibly important, the due
diligence um and and reallyunderstanding if you are on the
acquiring side, understandingwhat you are acquiring.
So that um, you know, theconversations around uh EPDA and
(21:19):
profitability and margin, umthat can a lot of times take uh
take precedent over who are weactually getting ready to
partner with and who are weactually getting ready to marry
in this in this transaction.
Um and I think that when youkind of skate through that
(21:43):
phase, it shows immediately.
Uh once you, once the inkdries, it it shows immediately
that there was no alignment orreal synergy in the way we do
business or the way you dobusiness and how that will
complement um each other and howultimately it will benefit the
clients on the other side ofthings.
So I think um if I could sayhumanizing the process and
(22:08):
really kind of taking therobotics out of it and saying
there are people on the otherside of this transaction who are
going to um work here, who aregoing to look at us as partners
and want to um bring us bring usin or grow with us as we grow.
Um, I think when you take thatapproach and and and realize
(22:30):
that there's a human on theother side of this, you know,
major transaction, that's whenyou get um the benefit of um an
acquisition or a merger and youyou begin to see the that growth
and the scale is was worth youknow the the effort of going
through the transaction.
Craig Fahle (22:48):
Well, I sort of want to ask one more question of
each of you, real quick, on onthis part of our discussion
here.
And that is, you know, we we'vebeen talking a lot about growth
and and mixing teams.
What do you need to tellcustomers, clients, to ensure to
them that just because you'regrowing doesn't mean they're
going to lose the attention thatthey that they maybe really
appreciated about you when youwere a smaller firm?
Peter Van Dyke (23:10):
Yeah, you know, I think that is it's that
conversation that should bediscussed at the very beginning
of an acquisition processbecause that's your value
proposition.
So it should feel seamless andnatural when you start telling
customers about this afteryou've gone through months of
due diligence and you're readyto sign the deal and possibly go
through a rebranding.
That should just feelcompletely natural because
(23:31):
you've been talking about sinceday one in that first
conversation of the why.
Um and so, you know, for thethe Stern acquisition in in
February, it really because itwas it made perfect sense for
these two companies to cometogether, that that conversation
was very easy to have for theclients that they've been
working with, many for 10, 15years, some some 20.
(23:52):
Uh, we said your your team'snot going to change, but your uh
capabilities within the teamthat you work with are gonna
expand exponentially.
And so those clients were like,wow, there's an opportunity.
One, they they see anopportunity to work with the
same people, but kind of have ummore services within the team
that they're working with.
Um we see that as a newbusiness opportunity.
(24:12):
So that's great for us when wesee that.
And so it's it's it'sdefinitely more important for
the firm that you're acquiringbecause those those are the
clients who are gonna have thethe bigger shift.
Uh, but you also the thecompany that's doing the
acquiring, you don't want yourclients ever to read about you
in the news before you've talkedto them.
That's kind of the 101 of umbest or worst practices,
whichever way you're whereyou're doing it.
(24:33):
So uh, you know, before thenews hits, we would have a
conversation with every clientsaying, hey, you're gonna see in
the news that we acquired asour agency.
Um, what this allows us to dois A, B, C, D.
Um, and you know, if you'd liketo hear more about that, we'd
love to bring them in.
And again, it was in certainacquisitions, maybe it's a
harder conversation.
Probably at larger scaleacquisitions, it's a harder
conversation.
But for us, um, the root ofthose conversations were based
(24:55):
in our very first conversationwe had about the acquisition.
So it felt very organic andseamless.
Craig Fahle (25:01):
All right.
Well, let's sort of let'sswitch over here.
Just for the interest of timehere, I do want to talk a little
bit about the industry itselfand the state of the industry,
because there's always a lot ofconcern about that.
We you mentioned, you know, AIat the beginning of this
conversation and a lot ofchanges that are taking place.
Some people are suggesting thatPR is dead, others are
suggesting that PR has been, youknow, it's never been more
(25:22):
important given the amount ofchannels that people can go to
to find information.
What do you think is moreaccurate in terms of the the
health of the profession and andits need right now?
And I'm looking at whoeverwants to go first, but I'm
thinking this county.
Peter Van Dyke (25:39):
I'm looking at Ray.
He's been talking about thisacross the nation.
Okay, and his other role aschair of PRSA.
Ray Day (25:44):
Well, yeah, there you go.
I'm also chair of PRSA, andyeah, I don't know how to say
no.
I keep taking on more and moretitles and jobs.
I have never been more excitedabout this profession and what
we provide to business and tosociety today.
And for me, it goes back tothis ongoing kind of nonsensical
discussion where we've beenasking to have a seat at the
(26:06):
table.
And you will never be asked tohave a seat at the table if
you're adding value.
And I do a lot of speaking oncampus.
I mentor a lot of people whoare starting out in this
profession.
And my number one piece ofadvice to them is be a business
partner first.
Be the best at business acumen,be able to speak the language
(26:29):
of a CFO.
And then, of course,secondarily, people assume you
know how to do communications,you know how to do all the
tactical things we do.
That's a given.
That's why you're being hired.
But be a business partner andyou are absolutely going to be
in need more than ever before.
And I see that today.
And so I think this professionis alive and well.
(26:51):
And I know we'll talk about AI.
And I think people who arestill fearing AI or worrying
about being replaced by AIreally just need to realize
we're in the year 2025 and theyneed to get up to speed.
Very true.
Peter Van Dyke (27:07):
Yeah, you know, I'm finding two things.
I think one, it's you know,it's a tool that helps you do
your job.
And there are new tools havebeen created since beginning a
time to help you do your job.
And this is just a really umquickly advancing and adapting
one.
Uh the the thing that I bothappreciate about it and both
fear about it is it's justspeeding up the process that
much more.
(27:27):
I feel like during COVID,things got quicker.
You could have 12 meetings aday because you didn't have to
drive to somebody's office.
And so suddenly what was athree-meeting day became a
12-meeting day, and you're goingback to back to back.
And and so now with AI, there'scertain processes that we've
done internally that we're nowusing AI to help us facilitate.
Um that just makes the the daygo there's so much more speed in
(27:50):
what you have to do becauseexpected because of the tools
that you have.
But what it also allows you todo is spend more time in the
areas that AI can't replace,which is being what Ray just
said is a critical thinkingpartner that you you really
can't can't train a computer todo.
And so it's allowed me to say,okay, there's these kind of
administrative things that AIcan do for me, or at least do
the first draft of it.
(28:11):
So I don't have to start from ablank screen.
But it's allowed me then to bemore present in other areas of
my job where I would be, youknow, working all day long on a
Saturday to catch up to uhbecause I didn't have tools uh
available to me to kind of speedup the administrative piece.
Craig Fahle (28:25):
Aaron Powell Wow, that's great insight, Peter.
So that's the one thing thatdrives me crazy about AI is the
compliments it pays you.
Ray Day (28:32):
And if I just add to that, since all technology, and
we we're so fixated today on AI,but if you look at the history
of technology, it's always beenabout human plus machine equals
a better world.
And the human has always beenin charge.
And one of the my favoritethings to do on stage, I was
speaking at a conference acouple of years ago, and I asked
(28:54):
a friend, I said, you know, I'mgonna get all these questions
about AI and it's gonna replaceus.
And he mailed me a veryyellowed photo or a headline of
a newspaper from 1966, and itwas a newspaper article, front
page of math teachers protestingcalculators.
Calculators were going to putmath teachers out of business.
(29:16):
How we can't let this happen.
The world is ending, and whathas been the result?
No, human plus machine hasequaled a better world, and
that's what we have to keep inmind.
And for us in communicationsand PR, what we really need to
do is move from this as aproductivity play to a high
value play.
Yeah, we can dabble around andwe can eliminate low-value tasks
(29:38):
and we should, but the realopportunity is how do you make
this higher impact, higher valueto help clients and businesses
grow and get better?
Kimberly Hoyle (29:49):
I agree.
And I think it goes back tothat in the space of being a
partner, right?
With your being a businesspartner to your client.
So you should be thinking abouthow can we bring more value?
How can we make um how can wemake the engagement better and
(30:09):
how can we enhance it?
And it should always be sort ofthis um proactive thinking when
you are working, not as aconsultant, but when you take on
your client's business as yourown.
And you're always looking athow do you grow, what tools do
we need, what tools are going tobe necessary for that growth.
And I think it, you know,coming into the um into the
(30:33):
client engagement with thatmindset of just deepening the
relationship, reallyunderstanding the bit their
business at a micro and macrolevel, and then understanding
how uh these tools andtechnology will enhance um not
only the work that you're doingfor them, but so that you
understand to Ray's point about,you know, be able to speak the
(30:53):
finance language.
You don't have to be a CFO, butyou need to understand, you
know, if those are drivers fortheir business, you need to
understand that language.
And so to me, AI is nodifferent, right?
You and I think from what I'veseen, clients are um kind of
looking at their businesspartners to help educate them in
(31:13):
some ways on how um they mightgain efficiencies or or better
level of service with um withthe technology.
So I think being in that um,you know, in that showing
yourself in that light as thatpartner, that from a business
development perspective, what Ithink of, I'm looking at organic
growth, and then we can go, youknow, we can go deeper and and
(31:35):
have a longer, longer standingrelationship.
Craig Fahle (31:38):
I I think one of the concerns that that people
have in this business about AI,though, is that you know, we
talk about, you know, am I gonnabe replaced by AI?
But there may be some clientsor or customers, potential
customers out there that lookat, you know, the availability
of Chat GTP and say, I don'tneed somebody to write that.
I can just do it myself.
How do you respond to that sortof mindset about I guess that
sort of undervalues a lot of ofwhat we bring to the table?
(32:00):
And and I say that, I'm notgonna put those words in any of
your mouths, but I thinksometimes people do sort of
undervalue the thought processthat goes into proper messaging.
Peter Van Dyke (32:09):
Yeah, I'd say that potential customer is
looking for a transactionalrelationship, and that's not the
business that we're in.
Um yeah, you can put, I don'tknow, a bunch of talking points
into a chat GPT and it gives youa press release.
Um, we we had a situation witha reporter that clearly took a
press release and put it into AIto create an article that we
noticed when it was in the inthe paper.
(32:31):
Um, I forgot about that.
Yeah.
And so, you know, you stillneed the human to control the
machine.
Um, and so that's not ourclient.
The the clients that we workwith are the ones that want to
call us at five o'clock and say,I have this really complicated
issue and I need to talk to youabout it.
And and that goes back to whatRay was saying.
It it becomes where's where'sthe high value in this
relationship?
Because the low value wasreally never what we were
(32:53):
engaging, engaged to do.
That was just a part of thefacilitation of the high value
work.
And so if a customer said it tome, I'd say, well, go find
another firm.
And I'd be totally fine withthat.
Ray Day (33:04):
Yeah, and one example, we have a client right now that
has we're helping them withcrisis.
And we need the criticalthinking of people who have been
through crisis and crisis andcrisis.
But what we're using AI to dois ingest 10 years of this
particular crisis, what's thehistory?
And we're asking, we're makingAI our wingman or our wing
(33:26):
person and saying from apredictability standpoint, from
a trend standpoint, when thishappens, what typically is the
outcome?
And who do we need tocommunicate with first?
Who is biggest, who's going tobe the most impacted, and what
do we need to know?
That's human plus machineequals better crisis
communications.
Kimberly Hoyle (33:46):
Yeah.
And I think remembering thatit's a tool.
It's not a replacement, it'snot, you know, a substitute, it
is a tool.
And that's I mean, it's just tome, it's that plain.
Uh, and when you see it workthat way, um it clients
understand you know where itfits into the overall strategy.
But at the end of the day, it'sa tool.
(34:07):
And yes, you still need thehuman element, and you you
there's no replacing that.
Craig Fahle (34:13):
All right.
The human element, we need totalk about that just a little
bit because uh again, hiring theright people, Peter, you talked
about it early on in thisconversation, how important that
is.
You're still directly involvedin that process here at VVK.
Um, where are we having troublehiring right now?
What roles are becomingdifficult to fill, and what
skills are you looking for thatyou're perhaps not seeing in the
(34:35):
quantity that you'd like is anice way to put it.
Um, who wants to go first onthat one?
I see a smile.
Kim, come on now.
Kimberly Hoyle (34:43):
So I I think that um, you know, the the
industry has evolved.
Um, and then when you seeconsulting agencies, uh firms
like Deloitte and and BostonConsulting Group um acquiring um
marketing and data, you know,companies to expand their
(35:04):
services, the competitive fieldjust gets it's gotten bigger,
right?
And so the level of thinkingthat you need, it's not just
someone who uh study publicrelations or journalism.
You really need those strategicthinkers, those who um
understand public policy, thosewho understand economics, those
who understand um the strategythat goes behind developing a
(35:30):
key message and not just thecreative side of it or just you
know high-level talking pointsor bullet points.
So what I've seen is um reallytrying to, from a talent
perspective, trying to um get alittle bit of get away from, not
fully, but just in a little bitaway from the the traditional
(35:50):
um PR and journalism uh umdegrees and and really looking
at those that are uh go a littlebit more deeper because I think
that's what the clients arerequiring today, that you be um
a more well-rounded partner thatcan support their business
needs.
Craig Fahle (36:10):
You've been you uh you're involved with PRSA as
well, um, which you know meansyou're dealing with people at
every level of their career.
Um where are you seeingweaknesses?
Ray Day (36:19):
I think the model has changed within agencies, the
hiring model, the peoplemanagement model.
And it used to be a pyramidwhere you'd have, you know, the
really, really uh senior peoplewho were either administrative
or they were subject matterexperts, and you had this middle
layer that were the, you know,all the terms we put on agency
people when they've served thereso long.
And then we had the the reallybig bottom layer, which was the
(36:44):
cultivating, the farm team thatwas always coming through.
I think the pyramid has turnedinto a barbell.
And where I see client need ison the one side, more demand
than ever for subject matterexperts.
Deep, deep expertise.
Either you've been through thewar on crisis, or you have deep,
deep relationships in publicaffairs or in state government
(37:08):
or in city government, whateverit is, people want that
expertise and that experience.
We've stripped out the middlelayer.
We don't need the checkersanymore and the people with the
alphabet soup titles, but we doneed that constant flow of
people at the entrepreneuriallevel.
And for me, and I've been inthis business a while, whether I
(37:29):
was in-house or today, I alwayslook at three attributes in
anyone that I'm hiring.
And I, like Peter, like to bethe last word on particularly
the senior hires.
But the three things I look forof people who will be
successful in this business arestrategic, aggressive, and I
mean aggressive, that this is afull contact sport.
(37:49):
We're we play to win.
Whether you're in comms or PRor in public affairs, this is
hand-to-hand combat.
And we're here to help theclient win.
And then connected, which goesto that relationship business.
There's a reason we sometimescall this PR, that R is
strategic, and we need peoplewho know that and who can
cultivate those relationships.
Peter Van Dyke (38:08):
Yeah, so there's two pieces.
Um one is a little bit of whatRay just spoke to.
Um, and and that is the thearea around the strategy piece
that's that's a little bitchallenging to hire for.
Um, but it's interesting.
I'm involved highly involved inWaynesate University.
I chaired the board over thecommunications school, and Ray's
involved in the board becausehe doesn't have enough to do.
(38:29):
Um, so he volunteers there aswell, which we appreciate.
And I was involved with thecommunications department on uh
reviewing the curriculum andlooking for some changes to
curriculum to reflect the futureof our industry.
And there's two pieces when Raytalked about re uh
entrepreneurialism.
There's no class in thecommunications school at Wayne
State, and there still isn't.
So I still have that critiqueand I'm I'm working with them on
(38:51):
it, that teaches basic businessprinciples and practices.
And I said, if if you're gonnaadvance advance in your career
in any career, and the thecollege at Wayne State is fine
performing in communicationarts.
I'm like, you can be aballerina or a PR person.
I don't care.
If you're advancing yourcareer, at some point you're
gonna manage a budget, you'regonna manage HR, you're gonna
manage a team.
Um, and there's not one classat Wayne State that teaches that
(39:14):
um in the PR department or inthe communications department.
Um, and I remember when Iacquired the first agency I
acquired, Bergmuir had anassociates, and I had no idea
what the hell I was doing.
I was like 34 years old.
And I really thought at thatpoint of going to get my uh
associates in business at McCombCommunity College, because I
didn't have time for MBA.
Like I'm running this new firm,I'm growing the clients, I'm
(39:35):
integrating new clients.
I don't have time to go to MBAor because I get an MBA.
That's that's I just didn'thave the capacity for it.
But I literally thought goingto get like associates in
business, just like learn thebasics of business because
nobody had taught me other thanlearning on site a bit at the
agency where I'd worked.
The other piece of it, which isum much more tactical, is uh
project management tools.
They don't teach projectmanagement.
(39:55):
And it's such a core part ofthe work that we do,
particularly at agencies.
Um Of how to use projectmanagement software, how to
product manage a team, how towork with a team on deadlines.
And it doesn't have to be afull course, but I think it
should be a chapter.
Um, and I said it's you know,we expect that of every team
member here to really use somany different layers of product
management software to manageour clients and our team
(40:17):
internally.
And that's taught on site.
And I'm like, why isn't thattaught at school?
This is pretty applicable toany degree or any um profession
that you're gonna graduate in.
Um so you know, this is alittle bit more at the entry
level, but uh entrepreneurialismand product management will
carry you all the way through.
And I'm not seeing those beingtaught in the PR departments.
Craig Fahle (40:36):
Some of us gravitate towards those things
more so than others.
But uh you know, Ray, I want toget back to something you said
here, and we're running out oftime, so I sort of want to get
to this real fast.
But you you mentioned, youknow, that this is you're you're
in it to win it.
This is a fight, you know, andand this is uh sometimes a
stressful profession.
Uh agencies can be particularlystressful just because you're
bouncing so many differentclients, you're going from
(40:58):
subject to subject, burnout is areal thing.
And part of that stuff that yousuggest that you're really
lacking, that subject matterexpertise, that's just
experience.
That's just knowledge thatcomes from years and years on
the job.
And if people are burning out,you're not going to have some of
that experience that you need.
So, what needs to be done tomake sure that this is an
industry, especially agencylife, that, you know, is
(41:20):
sustainable for 20, 30 yearcareers?
Ray Day (41:22):
Absolutely.
It goes to another piece ofadvice when I give to young
people when I speak on campus.
I have my top 10 list of thingsthat you need to think about.
And number one is love or leavewhat you do.
This is not a job.
You fall in love with thisbusiness.
And you know, a lot of timespeople are asking me,
particularly young people,should I go in-house?
(41:44):
Should I go agency?
Should I go nonprofit?
Should I go government?
And I say, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Try everything out, and youwill quickly decide what you
fall in love with.
And if you love what you do,you will be world-class at it.
And that is the secret tosuccess.
And I've used it in my ownlife.
(42:05):
I had a role in-house that Ihad just spoken on campus, and I
was driving back to work, and Ithought about what I told the
young people, and I said, youknow, I don't really love what
I'm doing right now.
And I repotted myself and Isaid, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna
do something that I really love.
So my my biggest advice to allof us, whether we're in-house,
(42:26):
whether we're agency, whetherwe're a student, whether we're
up and coming, whatever we'redoing, love or leave what you're
doing and be world-class at itonce you fall in love with it.
Peter Van Dyke (42:36):
You know, I can't speak to um other
agencies, but when we started VVK, we have this culture book
that we that we use and it goesthrough our principles and our
culture, everything from kind ofum our our core values to
project management.
And and one, there's a coupleof things in the culture book um
that relate to uh basicallyexperiencing joy in your job
(42:56):
every day.
And at V VK, if you're notexperiencing joy in your job,
then maybe find another job.
Craig Fahle (43:01):
Um and I hope uh Some of us thrive on adrenaline
too.
So I'm a I'm a big uh, youknow, I like navigating the
crisis space when I can.
Peter Van Dyke (43:09):
Yeah.
So you know, Laura Les Bronce,our senior vice president in
Michigan, has said, no, she'sworked at large companies, large
global companies, smallnonprofits all over the country.
And she's I never workedsomewhere that's that's less
toxic um um than than V VK.
It's just, you know, we welaugh through problems, you
know, we we have fun everysingle day.
(43:30):
And it is a tough job.
It's it's it can be a littlechaotic.
You kind of feel like you're ina hundred places at once and
you have, you know, 12 Zoommeetings a day.
And if you can't figure out howto kind of laugh through that
process, then it is it's gonnabe really tough.
Um and so I I think it's againcore to that culture is you
know, what's the environment youwant to create?
And then how do you helpsupport your team members in
that environment to avoid thatburnout?
Craig Fahle (43:52):
I want to get your take on that too, Kim.
Kimberly Hoyle (43:54):
I agree.
I think um leadership is reallyimportant in this, right?
Um I think that I've been in atoxic agency environment and I
I've seen how it impacts, youknow, the the work from all
angles and and how uh and I'veseen people leave, you know, who
(44:15):
have just not even been in theindustry for five years.
Um and so I think that when youhave, you know, if you have a
culture book like V VK and youactually um and it's not just
shelfware, but it's actually theway that you do business, and
it really matters, um, then Ithink people that, you know,
(44:37):
people appreciate that there's,you know, there's thought put
into um how I'm going to spend,you know, 60 to 70% of my time
in an office with colleagues andpeople who are not my family.
Um all of that matters and itand it shows up in the output,
it shows up in how we treat eachother, you know, in a corporate
(44:58):
setting.
And I think it can help ithelps certainly with burnout
because if you are getting up inthe morning and you're like, oh
God, I gotta go there today,it's you know, you the burnout
comes very quickly before youeven have enough on your resume
to say, you know, I've beenthere, done that, and that's why
I'm over it.
(45:18):
Um, so I think leadership playsa significant role in um
mitigating burnout with withtheir staff.
Craig Fahle (45:28):
Yeah.
Well, so there are some of usthat enjoy being, you know,
bashed around like a ping pongball, um, you know, from client
to client on a daily basis.
It sort of thrive on it.
But uh okay.
They love what you do.
It it can be a lot of funsometimes, and it's certainly
energizing um in certainsituations.
But all right, so we've gotabout a minute left here, and I
(45:48):
have one last question, um, andit's sort of open-ended, and
you're gonna be annoyed by it.
But one piece of advice thatyou would give to an agency
owner who is listening rightnow.
Peter Van Dyke (46:02):
Starting with me.
Craig Fahle (46:03):
Starting with whoever wants to go first.
I told you you'd be annoyed.
Peter Van Dyke (46:09):
This is tough.
Um I'm trying to repeat thingsthat we've we've already said.
Um, but I'm gonna I'm justgonna take what Ray just said.
You gotta love what you do.
Um, you know, it's it's hardwork.
And um, I have the the greatfortune of this is all I've ever
wanted to do.
And so I really don't know muchdifferent, and I and I love it.
And you know, I've been prettyprivileged to uh kind of have
(46:30):
this role at this company.
Um but you know, if you don'tlove what you do, you gotta
leave.
So sorry, Ray, I took yours.
Ray Day (46:37):
Uh I was part of a research study with an HR group
once, and the what we weretrying to determine is what's
the half-life of a skill.
And the end conclusion wasthree to five years.
So any skill we have, any pointwe are in an agency or in a
team, we become half obsoleteevery three to five years.
So my advice to agencies istake that to heart.
That means you as a leader, youas an agency, your team, you
(47:01):
have to reinvent.
And don't be afraid ofreinventing, embrace it.
But every three to five years,we're now in this warp speed
cycle.
And make sure you stay on topof what's next.
What is my agency going to needto be in three to five years so
that my value proposition isone that perpetuates growth?
Craig Fahle (47:21):
That's weird.
This seems like something thatthe advertising agency needs to
think about every once in awhile.
So um you see like overreliance on a certain client,
and all of a sudden thatcompany's gone.
All right, go ahead.
Kimberly Hoyle (47:32):
Uh so yeah, I agree with both Peter and and
Ray.
Um and I would just add tothat, um listen to your people.
Um, I think that it's importantto, you know, for people to be
able to um have a voice, notnecessarily, you know, open it
up and and we're all kind ofcommunal management, but I think
(47:55):
listening to your staff andlistening to those who are on
the front lines every day umwould would go a long way for um
for growth and sustainabilitywith your staff.
Craig Fahle (48:06):
Well, is there anything that I have sort of
missed in this conversation thatany of you wants to sort of
chime in on real quick before wewrap this up today?
Ray Day (48:14):
Important discussion.
And again, I just kind of endwhere I started.
This is I've never been moreexcited about this business from
a comm standpoint, from anagency standpoint, and from a
business standpoint.
And if you're not excited andyou're in this business, you
probably need to ask yourselfthat question love or lead what
(48:36):
you do.
But this is an exciting time,and we should all be having a
blast.
Craig Fahle (48:41):
All right.
Go ahead, Peter.
Peter Van Dyke (48:42):
Yeah, you know, I think one of my favorite
quotes, and Craig has heard mesay that many times, it's from
my mentor, Bob Berg, but it'scordless business as well.
Is when you need a friend, it'stoo late to make one.
And so, you know, I've I Iactually almost interviewed for
Ray about 15 years ago and nevermade it to the last interview.
Um I never knew about it.
I I bowed out because I knew uhFord was not my future.
(49:06):
Um and but you know, yearslater, you know, I met Ray.
Um, you know, he's been a greatfriend to me and a great mentor
as we've developed V VK, youknow, Kim and I have seen each
other, you know, many a timesthroughout the Detroit business
community and really just satdown to break bread about a week
ago for the first time.
Um and uh and I said, wait aminute, I have a great
opportunity to uh to have aconversation with you on this
(49:28):
podcast.
So, you know, it's uh Detroit'sa small community, but but it's
a small global community aswell.
And I think, you know, it'swhen you need a friend state to
make one.
So make sure you make thosefriends along the way.
Craig Fahle (49:39):
Any parting words, Kim?
Kimberly Hoyle (49:41):
Uh I would just say, you know, relationships
matter.
And uh it's it's hard tocultivate real relationships,
you know, via Zoom and umdigitally.
So I think, you know, gettingback into um the office and
really kind of engaging in a waythat that we kind of since
(50:01):
COVID, we've been a littlehesitant to do it.
But I think um relationshipsmatter and people do business
with people.
And so if they don't, you know,if they don't know you, then
it's gonna be really hard to todo business and grow.
And so I would just um reallyput emphasis on cultivating, you
know, nurturing and and seekingout new uh opportunities for
(50:24):
for deeper relationship.
Craig Fahle (50:26):
Well, something that's I've just noticed
recently, and it's taken alittle while, but I'm starting
to see people embracing the ideaof coming back to the office,
which as we coax them back ingently, um, instead of just
saying everybody's back fivedays a week, it seems to be
creating its own momentum, whichis kind of nice.
Well, I would like to thank, ofcourse, Ray Day and Kimberly
Hoyle and Peter Van Dyke forjoining us today.
(50:46):
We certainly appreciate it.
Wonderful conversation.
Thanks so much.
Ray Day (50:50):
Thank you.
Craig Fahle (50:51):
All right, this is the V VK Podcast.
We'll see you again soon.
And that's going to do it forthe V VK Podcast today.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, we'd love to hear
your thoughts.
Give us your feedback, ideas,guest suggestions, or just let
us know what you're thinkinganytime.
The email address is hello atvvkagency.com.
(51:11):
Make sure to follow the show soyou never miss an episode, and
thanks again for spending partof your day with us.
We'll see you next time on theVVK Podcast.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.