May 17, 2024 • 47 mins
Hey y'all! Today we're answering another question. This question is about demons, miracles, and more. Tune in and listen up to this fun conversation about the reality of spiritual things existing in a physical world and how we as Christians should go about balancing the two.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick (00:13):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Walking Together podcast. My
name is Nick Adams. I'm herewith Kyle Lewis Hey. And Jared
Grantham.
Hello. This is the WalkingTogether podcast. And on today's
episode, we're talking aboutKyle, what are we talking about?
Kyle (00:32):
Demons.
Nick (00:33):
Demons. Alright.
Kyle (00:34):
No. What else?
Nick (00:35):
What else we're talking about?
Kyle (00:36):
Not just demons.
Nick (00:37):
Demons and more.
Jared (00:38):
Yeah. Miracles.
Kyle (00:40):
We just found our episode title.
Nick (00:42):
On today's special ones.
Kyle (00:43):
Demons and more. For 3
Nick (00:46):
payments of 1999, you could have those demons
exercised.
Jared (00:52):
We have specific pair of cloths. We've prayed over each
of them.
Kyle (00:57):
Oh, man.
Nick (00:58):
Sorry, guys. I also wanna read a question that was
submitted, couple weeks ago, andwe're gonna try our best to
answer it.
Kyle (01:06):
Yeah. And actually, that's a kind of a hint hint, nudge,
nudge. We're we're running outof questions, so we're about to
have to start coming up withtopics on our own.
Jared (01:13):
Yeah.
Kyle (01:13):
So send us some more questions. Yeah. Alright. So
this week's question is, we saythat we are a people that hangs
our faith on supernaturalthings. Then why oftentimes do
we separate the supernaturalfrom our daily lives?
So spiritual warfare, demonpossession, demonic oppression,
miracles, etc. Do we wronglybelieve that the dimension where
(01:34):
we find ourselves is somehowmore real than the spiritual
realm that created the physical,not the other way around. So,
kinda think how we wanted totackle today is, talking about,
like, the spiritual versus thethe physical and, you know,
typically in our daily lives,we, you know, we're taught to
kinda look at the physicalaround us and not really examine
(01:58):
or pay attention to thespiritual side, as much just
because it's something that wecan't see. So how how do you
guys keep keep that in balance,for your own personal lives?
Because, I mean and I'm justgonna admit right up off the
front, like, even as a pastor,that's something that you that I
struggle with.
(02:19):
You know? You just go aboutliving life and, yeah. Pray and
everything, but sometimes you,don't credit enough, and I think
we can also run the risk of,attributing too much spiritual
stuff too. So how do you keep abalance?
Nick (02:37):
It's, just kinda like with anything. Just because any job
you have, any ministry you have,it can become tedious,
repetitive. You can get in intoa habit and so it's not, you
know, being a pastor reallyisn't a whole lot different than
(02:58):
having a different job.
Kyle (03:00):
Right. You
Nick (03:00):
can, it can be all consuming in in all the in the
wrong ways. Having like, we talkabout a lot about walking
together, having people toremind you, to hold you
accountable, is is a good placeto have balance just in general.
Yeah. Spiritually though, youknow, out of the scripture, I'll
(03:22):
look it up while somebody elseis talking, I can't remember
exactly where and how it'sworded but just it talks about
fixing our minds on eternalthings. Mhmm.
And when you stop and thinkabout that, you'll realize that
I don't think about spiritualeternal things as much as the
(03:45):
here now physical, but when I doit makes the here now physical
less important. Right.
Kyle (03:52):
It flips that perspective.
Nick (03:54):
Thankfully, I get to get reminded almost every Wednesday
when we go to do prayer, like,Jesus provided the healing,
Jesus provides the way, and it'salready provided. So just
because you don't get physicalearthly healing or physical
earthly blessing doesn't ifyou're not thinking about
(04:16):
spiritual things, eternalthings, then those worldly
issues are gonna drag you down,kill you. Just Right. That get
you'll get imbalanced.
Kyle (04:27):
Right. And that that's something that, you know, I've
just in our conversation beforepressing record, you know, kind
of another reminder. And everynow and then, I'm reminded to
remember that, you know,spiritual stuff is the
foundation for everything else.You know? You had mentioned,
(04:47):
like, even creation.
Creation was more spiritual thanit was physical. There was
spiritual before there wasphysical. And, you know, that is
that way for everything. Youknow? It's just not to get all
super, super sociological andpsychological, but like, you
(05:08):
know, Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds.
Right. You, You you all rememberthat? You all remember that?
Jared (05:15):
You're gonna have to remind me about that one.
Kyle (05:17):
So it's like you have your physical needs, and then it gets
all the way up to, like, selfactualization. Okay. Right? So
but as needs are fulfilled andtaken care of, you move up to
the next layer. Mhmm.
So, very first thing is, like,shelter. Gotcha. Right? But once
you have shelter, you don'treally think about shelter
(05:38):
anymore. You know, whenever youget food source, you don't
really think about food sourceanymore.
Of course, you know, we've movedup a long way in that where we
don't, you know, we're not ahunter gatherer society anymore,
so we don't really think aboutthat. You know? I go hunt and
(05:59):
gather at the grocery store now.You don't have to make plans to
go hunt for, you know, take aweek long hunting trip to feed
your family for the next 3months. Right.
But I think I think of that inthe same way as, you know, how
we see we've moved beyond, like,our spiritual foundation. It
isn't just a second thoughtanymore. It's not we don't
(06:23):
realize. We've skipped thatlayer that is the actually the
foundation that everything elseis built upon.
Jared (06:28):
Yeah.
Nick (06:29):
So that verse was Colossians 3, 2, and 3. Think
about the things of heaven, notthe things of earth for you died
to this life and your real lifeis hidden with Christ in God for
those of you that believe. Andthat just can pertain not just
(06:52):
to heaven, not just to eternalthings, but spiritual things,
things you can't see Right.Which Paul mentions in several
letters in the New Testament.
Kyle (07:04):
Yeah. Jerry, do you have anything to add?
Jared (07:07):
Yeah. You know, we were talking about what do people
typically mean when they say theword miracle. So I know the
first thing that comes to mymind is things that are related
to the physical. We would say,someone being healed from, say,
a terminal disease that wasn'tgiven, you know, a promise of
(07:29):
life. You know, someone that is,maybe injured in the hospital
and needing a recovery, like,that's one of the the things
that you would think about oreven being raised from the dead.
Right? When we think about themiracles in the life of Jesus,
those are the things that wesee. But we would also say, you
(07:52):
know, I I think we couldprobably throw into that the
demon possession would beconsidered, you know, sort of a
miracle. How many people didJesus raise from the dead?
Kyle (08:04):
Besides himself.
Nick (08:09):
23? 2? I was gonna say 2 is Lazarus.
Kyle (08:12):
I was gonna say Lazarus.
Nick (08:15):
The boy. Was where the other 2 didn't have a name,
really. They weren't namedpeople.
Kyle (08:20):
It was a little girl.
Jared (08:21):
So yeah. So there's only, you know, 3 instances. And and
one of the things that I, that Ilike, I think John Piper said
was, you know, we, there's farless miracles in the Bible than
you would realize, and there'sprobably far more miracles that
take place in the world todaythan we even realize.
Kyle (08:41):
Oh, yeah.
Jared (08:41):
You know, when you think about all of the people who are,
you know, serving in differentcountries, all the missionaries,
churches, and things that arehappening, There's there's
probably miracles that aretaking place. I mean, we we've
all probably experiencedfinancial miracles. I mean, in a
sense, where where is this gonnacome from? How I'm gonna do
this? And then out of nowhere,you you get a check-in the mail.
(09:01):
Wow. You know, that's andthere's other instances I think
we could probably relate to.But, typically, we just seem to
focus on the the other thing Ithink is, you know, when you
look all throughout scripture,the old testament and the new
testament, the idea like, if youespecially if you go back and
read the old testament, I mean,people are are really living by
faith on God's promises. And,you know, was there more
(09:24):
miracles in the days of Elijahor or than Moses? I mean, you
know, if you if you kinda lookat that and see it's we see
glimpses of it.
But what we like to focus on alot of times in the the church
Christian world is what whattook place in the book of acts
or, you know, or other places inthe New Testament and try to
create that as normative. Whenwhat what that was serving the
(09:48):
purpose for, specifically inacts is like the growing of the
church, the foundation, and whatJesus left to the disciples,
apostles, and the ministrythat's taken place there in in
order to further the gospel.Right? The instance we talked
about is, you know, when you seePaul in Acts and, you know, a
(10:11):
lot of things that are takingplace, they're healing, they're
walking by, he's speaking, takeup your bed and walk, and boom.
You know, you see this happen.
But then we also see, you know,when he writes to Timothy, and I
think it's first Timothy chapter5 where, you know, he's sick,
and he's like, you know, take alittle bit of wine for your
stomach. And, you know, it'slike, well, man, if if the
(10:34):
things were the exact same wayback then, why didn't you just
speak to him and say be healed?And so, you know, I I think a
lot of times, we try to make anormative things out, or they
should be normative when maybethey're they're not as they
should be. Right. That makessense.
Kyle (10:50):
Yeah. Yeah. No. That that makes perfect sense.
Nick (10:54):
It helps, it helps me to write those things down.
Kyle (11:00):
Yeah.
Nick (11:01):
I'm not a I'm not a I wouldn't say I'm a very
creative, literate person, but,journaling is something that I
don't do it every day. I don'tdo it every week. When something
(11:24):
happens that is not normal and Iwrite it down, when things are
happening out of my control orgoing through depression or or
just feeling like you're gettingthe short end of the stick all
the time, having that to go backto is like just like the the
parables in the Bible, just likethe those accounts of those
(11:48):
things, and it's it's areminder, like, God's still
doing, God's still working.Yeah. God's still, you know
Jared (11:55):
Yeah. I mean, when you look at what Jesus said in John
chapter 10, he says in verse 37,if I'm not doing the works of my
father, then do not believe me.In other words, the works are
evidence that I'm in the fatherand the father is in me. Mhmm.
I'm unique.
I am the son of God. This istrue. Like, everything that was
for that purpose was what? Topoint back to
Kyle (12:17):
Right.
Jared (12:18):
To God. Yeah. We we pray and as much as we'd like to see,
and I think God can still youknow, if if it's his will and
his plan, you know, thingsprobably happen. That's should I
be alive breathing, having asmany things as I do now? Yeah.
And and and the blessings. No.Right? Any of us. So if if God
(12:38):
wants and is his desire and hiswill, it'll happen.
But, you know, everything thatJesus was doing, it was a point
back. Right. You know? Yep.
Nick (12:47):
I think I think you can get caught up in the a miracle
is just a sign, right, to pointyou to something that Exactly.
To point you to God. And And alot of times you can get hung up
on the sign because no matterhow flashy it is, like, you can
get or the person holding thesign. Like, that's you you put
your faith in. And I think Godwill do something.
(13:10):
God will truly use somebody, andthen I don't you don't know what
it is, whether it's pressure,outside pressure from people,
but they people want you to doit again and again and again.
Right. And and then it turnsinto a whole another thing.
Right?
Kyle (13:29):
Yeah.
Nick (13:30):
And instead of it just pointing to God, now it's
pointing to you.
Jared (13:33):
Right. Yep. Yeah.
Nick (13:38):
So it miracles are are wonderful. There's a wonder of
God. Right? But they're just asign to point you to God.
Kyle (13:49):
Exactly. I don't
Jared (13:50):
know about you. I I just grew up I felt like in some in
some bad teaching theology. Youknow, it's like if you had
enough faith, if you prayed theright prayer, if it was eloquent
eloquent. Sorry. If you youknow, there's a certain formula
you gotta have.
And you see it a lot in the wordfaith movement. Like, you know,
(14:12):
well, it was just because youdon't have enough faith that it
happens. And so but when so Iwould go, this is just as a kid,
I remember being like, alright.Alright. I'm a pray to God, the
father, this time because he Imean, I've just been praying to
Jesus, and that didn't I don'tknow.
He's busy. I mean, I I literallyremember it as a kid, like,
(14:35):
trying to okay. Maybe if I saythe words and more eloquent like
King James style, then he'llknow I'm serious. And then
meanwhile, Lord, father God, andI beseech thee. And and in the
meantime, Jesus walking, hegoes, get up.
(14:57):
So, you know, there's some badbad teaching that I had to kinda
get delivered of to think, youknow, that I should have gotten
or
Nick (15:06):
Right. Yeah. We can again, you somebody will have a gift or
get a gift given from the HolySpirit and you're like, man, I
need to do it like that person'sdoing it.
Jared (15:20):
Yeah. Yep.
Kyle (15:24):
So we've I mean, we've already kind of broached the
topic a little bit, but with,with miracles and seeing
spiritual and supernaturalstuff. I mean, have y'all ever
seen miracles? Ever experiencedany?
Nick (15:37):
Yes. Definitely. But going back to something Jared said, I
believe there's there'sdifferent classifications or
kinds. So what, I don't know howfar you wanna go with it. I
don't know.
Definitely experienced financialmiracles. I've definitely heard
and seen God do things that arenot normal.
Jared (16:01):
Right. Well, I mean, if we're classifying for the sake
of, you know, the dictionary, asurprising and welcoming event
that is not explicable by natureor scientific laws, therefore,
considered the work of a divineagency. Almost
Kyle (16:18):
thanks Miriam.
Nick (16:20):
Almost every near about every week don't you hear about
somebody going in for a cancersurgery and they go in and it
ain't there?
Kyle (16:29):
Yeah. He's there.
Nick (16:30):
I mean, what is that? Right.
Jared (16:32):
Yeah. Actually, yep. Absolutely.
Kyle (16:36):
Yeah. So I mean, I'm same boat. What does that cause you
to do though?
Nick (16:43):
Well, it goes back to sometimes, I mean, being honest,
like, sometimes we've made thatnormative. Like, we we talk
about it casually sometimes.
Kyle (16:52):
Mhmm.
Nick (16:53):
Yeah. And it's like Yeah. Well, great. That's good. That's
great.
Alright.
Kyle (16:58):
Man, alright. You know, you got
Nick (16:59):
We don't celebrate. We need you need to celebrate
those. Like, you celebratewhat's important.
Kyle (17:05):
Right.
Nick (17:06):
And sometimes those things are just kinda brushed or Right.
I've I have it's you know, I'veprayed for certain things and
and they've happened. And I'veprayed for certain things and
they haven't. And it was agrowing experience. So I,
Jared (17:29):
a quick story. I'll tell you. I had about a, I don't
know, $35100 miracle happenedrecently on this trip that we
went on. It's totally a godthing how it all orchestrated
and lined up. But for those whodon't know, we were on a road
trip with our family.
And, you know, basically, weended up in a place in Colorado.
(17:50):
Never been before. I had beenworking through this,
application thing for us, like apastoral thing. You know, it was
kinda like a spiritual renewalcounseling thing that we we did.
And, and blessed us and ourfamily financially in a way that
(18:15):
we ended up in the town that itwas in.
We've never been in on the daythat it was supposed to happen,
and those people actually hadsomebody to sponsor for us to
go. And when we embarked on thistrip back in, you know, June
July, the the the thing thespiritual renewal pastoral thing
(18:36):
was in November, and I Iwouldn't even plan on being
there in November. And it'scrazy as we're as I'm filling
out this application process, Imean, there's so many god
moments throughout it, but theshort version for the sake of
this podcast is how, like, Iliterally in tears. Our family
just blown away by how Godworked this out. And he knew
that even long before we weregonna be in Littleton, Colorado,
(18:59):
of all places, that we'd bethere on that day when it was
supposed to happen, and God wasgonna work out all details so we
could go.
And I'm like, man, if that ain'ta miracle, like, I don't know.
Nick (19:10):
You saying that reminded me of something, that it's hard
for me to tell, but, and I don'twanna make a long story short
and try to try not to because II don't know if the part of this
blessed and embossed people, andI don't know if those people
necessarily want other people toknow that they were part of it.
(19:31):
Right. But to make a long storyshort, we were helping some
people because I had the abilityand skills to do it, and I just
took off of work and went anddone it. And, it took 3, 4 days,
and it was in a different state.And I went and and did it.
(19:57):
And this this couple had, youknow, this kinda terrible thing
happened and prayed about it.Had $2,000 in savings, but, they
needed prayed about it anddetermined, we're gonna give
(20:22):
them $1,000. Tried to make it,what do
Jared (20:30):
you call it? Anonymous? Yes.
Nick (20:33):
Anyway, they ended up figuring it out, but during the
time all this is happening, itwas it was during the time I'm
going to school, just started anew job, kinda started over,
Still trying to learn theheating and air thing, but know
enough to know enough to help.Anyway, Chrissy had bunions. And
(20:59):
and it's funny when I first whenI used to hear that term, I
thought like, oh, you got likebig corns on the side of your
feet. It don't it's a terrible abad sound of words. Right.
But her bones on her big toesgrew in Yeah. And dancing
through the years and all that'staking ballet and all that stuff
(21:21):
didn't help. Anyway, her feethad gotten so bad she would have
trouble walking, especially ifshe didn't wear special shoes
and get to the end of the night.And sometimes, like, I would
have to carry her. Well, thissurgery because we had kind of
(21:42):
started over, like, we gotcatastrophic insurance
deductible $7,000.
I'm flying with me. We ain'tgot. I don't know. I'm praying
this whole, like, Lord, you'regonna have to do something
because we don't anyway, thesethese people don't know this.
(22:05):
About we did that in the summer,it gets fall.
This is months after. And, comehome and there is $7,000 at my
door in an envelope. Wow. Andthat's what pays to get Krissy's
(22:28):
feet fixed. And, every time Itell that story, like, you can't
you can't you can't make the youcan't make it up.
You can't I couldn't even, youknow, and for God to be that
gracious and orchestrative Mhmm.Is just wild, you know. Yeah.
(22:54):
And yeah. So there is timeswhere if you would just have
faith, like, God provides.
And there's sometimes when youdon't have faith and God's just
trying to show you, hey, if youwould just trust me a little
bit.
Kyle (23:10):
Right.
Nick (23:11):
And, you know, that was what was it? 3 or 4 years ago.
But it was like, I don't andnothing ever happened to me like
that. In that in that way
Kyle (23:22):
Right.
Nick (23:23):
I've gotten the the checks in the mail and those are all
those are miracles. Those areblessings. But it was just like,
It was a lot was a long timeexperience for me. Yeah. And it
just it changed the blessingwasn't so much the $7,000.
(23:46):
It was great. We got Right. Butit changed it changed mine and
Christie's faith and made ourmarriage stronger, made our
parenting better, made it madeeverything better. Right.
Kyle (23:57):
Do y'all think that we talk about miracles enough then?
No.
Nick (24:01):
Because you're scared. You because it's like, I get
emotional every time I tell thatstory because it is so I
Jared (24:09):
think people are also afraid that, well, what if it
doesn't happen? Right. Maybe,you know, there's that side of
the whole thing.
Kyle (24:18):
Well, see, so here here's the thing that I'm sitting here
thinking about. It's like, man,I don't I hear so much about,
like, we attribute bad things toSatan all the time. So getting
into the demonic oppressionstuff here in just a little bit,
but, like, we I was joking withNick. Nick said that his watch
(24:38):
broke. I'm like, man, well, thedevil broke your watch.
Right? Like, man, we'll say thatabout little stupid stuff, but
whenever god does somethingawesome, you know, we don't we
don't talk about it enough.
Nick (24:48):
You know what I mean? You're I don't know if it's
because, like, you're scaredmaybe what if god takes it away?
Or what if that, you know, a lotof times it'll be this happened
to my grandparents. It's funny.I still got this newspaper and
(25:09):
it's up on my garage wall toremind me of this.
My grandma had pancreaticcancer, Went through chemo,
gone. Right? Did an article inthe paper, pastor and his wife.
Did a whole faith art. It was itwas Yeah.
It was a cool thing. Normallydon't put stuff on paper. Right?
Kyle (25:33):
Right. Right.
Nick (25:36):
About 2 months after that, it came back and just the
blessing in that was it made mefind my faith because Right. My
whole family's faith was builtoff of my grandparents. Mhmm.
And there's a lot of terriblethings happened after that. But
through that, everybody gottheir own faith.
Kyle (25:58):
Yeah.
Nick (25:58):
My mom, my uncles, my grandkid, like, everybody. It
was a blessing. Yeah. But duringthat time, it was like we claim
named it and claimed it, andthen it happened, and now it
Yeah. And it it may it makes youfeel like a fool sometimes.
Kyle (26:20):
Yeah.
Jared (26:21):
There's a I won't say for second names, but there is a
popular, I I guess you could saypreacher. There's a popular
person that does, pastoral ishwork in the world. And, I'm I'm
trying to you know? But my pointis I'm not trying to be funny,
(26:44):
but it was one of the name ofthe claim. It's a word of faith.
Yeah. You know, if you don't ifyou don't get healed, it's
because you don't have enoughfaith. You don't you ain't
praying, you ain't believing,you aren't so and so. And has
been recorded to say that manytimes in his ministry. And his
wife got cancer
Nick (27:03):
Mhmm.
Jared (27:03):
And passed away. And I remember what he said
afterwards, you know, becauseit's like, how do you how do you
say that one thing? Is itbecause and, you know, it's
like, you know, God used thatsituation to help. I think it
also helped shape his belief inhis teaching Right. After
(27:26):
experiencing that.
And a lot of times, you know, wewant to feel good. We want to
see the
Kyle (27:31):
thing
Jared (27:31):
and praise and all. And that's great when it happens,
but when it what about when itdoesn't happen? You know? What
what about when that person'snot healed or, you know, they
don't come back to life or
Nick (27:44):
Right.
Jared (27:44):
Or they don't walk again or
Kyle (27:47):
see. And that's something that I was just thinking of,
too, is like the, Websterdefinition. Right. It was like
it's a welcoming thing. Do y'allthink miracles are always
welcoming?
Nick (28:01):
No. But I was just about to say, like, you have to remind
me it's not about you. Right.
Jared (28:06):
It's not
Nick (28:06):
about Yeah. You getting credit or you being able to put
your stamp on it or put yourfinger on it as to this is how I
figured it out. Like, just likethat my grandma going through
pancreatic cancer and dying, theblessing was later. Right. And
so at the time and only God cansee that.
(28:29):
Like, God, you know, you cangive me illustration. God God
can see the parade from thebeginning to the end and all the
Yeah. Floats, all the things inbetween, and we can't. So
Jared (28:39):
Yeah. Something that happened in the last couple
years, a good friend of mine,his, his mom got cancer and
passed away. And, she wasn't aChristian in her life growing
up. So he said all throughout mychildhood and my adulthood. And
he said that she got cancer.
And she lived about 2 years, Ithink, year and a half, 2 years
(29:03):
from the time. And he said shefound God in a way that I had
never experienced. That everytime we we went there and talked
to her, she was she'd beenpraying. She'd been reading her
Bible. She got back involved inmy son's lives, involved in
family dinners, he said.
And she started coming to churchwith us. She got involved in
church. She you know, basicallyher whole life. And, right
(29:29):
before she passed away, shesaid, you know, if getting
cancer was what got my securefor me to know Jesus and have my
eternal life.
Nick (29:40):
Mhmm.
Jared (29:41):
That was worth every bit of it. Yep. And she said, you
know, what did that look likebefore I had cancer? I didn't
care anything about. And shesaid it was the best thing that
ever happened to me.
And I was like, dang.
Kyle (29:56):
See so and that's the thing is, like, we that's why I
hate that. I actually hate thatdefinition. A welcoming event.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, man, sometimes a miraclewas can be one of the worst
things that's ever happened toyou. And that's why I think it's
just the irony in that weattribute things that we
consider to be bad. We'll be thefirst people to accredit it to
(30:21):
Satan, you know? And then he'slike, I didn't do that. Right?
Right. And so I think we can goahead and jump into that next
point that, the question wasbringing up is like, so how do
we consider, like, demonicoppression and possession and
spiritual warfare? You know?Like, are those things real,
first off? And, I think theanswer around the table would be
(30:42):
a resounding yes, but, b, youknow, why are we either quick to
a credit or discredit or,certain things?
And I think some of it can bebased on how we even view
miracles. So since we've kind oftalked about that a little bit
now, you know, it's so goingback to, you know, I was joking
(31:05):
about Nick's watch and sayinghow will credit, you know,
little things to Satan. Littlenuisance things, right, to,
like, demonic oppression. Yeah.You know, and, we're so hesitant
to talk about So miracles.
Nick (31:20):
Anyway For, explain the difference For people that's
between possession and Yeah.Oppression.
Kyle (31:32):
Yeah. I think that's best first stop. First step.
Jared (31:35):
I would, I would say possession would be to inhabit
Yeah. Within. You know, as wesee through scripture, where
different people had been demonpossessed, that when the, demon
was cast out, it went out oftheir, their bodies. Right?
Nick (31:58):
Mhmm.
Jared (31:59):
So that that resident, that inhabitants, that in
control, I think I view you guysmay have a different opinion,
but I think oppression is moreof an external outside force. It
doesn't live within and controlwhat you do, but tries to
influence Right. In a sense whatyou do. You know, there's no, we
(32:21):
have to use the Bible as, youknow, truth because it is.
There's no example in scriptureof a Christian being possessed
by the Right.
Right.
Kyle (32:31):
Yeah. And I so I was actually gonna read John 1
because I think it it it pointsout it's a biblical principle to
point that out. I'll go aheadand read, oh, first five verses
of John 1, but it says in thebeginning was the word and the
word was with God and the wordwas God. He was with God in the
beginning and all things werecreated through him. And apart
(32:52):
from him, not one thing wascreated that has been created in
him was life, and that life wasthe light of men.
And that light shines in thedarkness, and yet the darkness
did not overcome it.
Jared (33:03):
Yeah.
Kyle (33:03):
So, I mean, so where there's light, there can't be
the of darkness. Right? Right.Yeah. Residency.
Yeah. I mean, so if if you'vegot the the light of Christ in
you, if you have that life, thatlife that is the light of men,
like, you can't be, inhabited.But surely, you can have the,
(33:30):
demonic and
Jared (33:31):
Well, we're influenced already by the Right. The world.
Right? Right. Right.
And the world is e the worldinfluence on us helps also to
dictate and control ourbehaviors. Right. Do we submit
to it or not? You know, secondCorinthians 6 is an example that
I think talks about, you know,with the true believer. When
(33:52):
Paul's writing, he says, whatharmony has Christ would love or
what has a believer in commonwith an unbeliever or what
agreement has the temple of Godwith idols?
For we are the temple of theliving God, Just as God said, I
will dwell in them and will walkamong them, and I will be their
God, and they shall be mypeople. And I think as God
(34:12):
resides and we are his peopleand went to it. I don't think
those 2 things can indwelltogether. Right. Yeah.
Kyle (34:18):
But they can't. They can't. The house divided against
itself cannot stand.
Jared (34:25):
That's a that's a NC State ECU reference. Right?
Kyle (34:32):
But, but yeah. So no. I think that's a I think those are
good definitions for, oppressionand possession. I mean, but so
let me ask y'all. Have y'allever seen, like, demonic
oppression or possession.
Yes. You've seen both?
Jared (34:52):
I know well, I'm as you're saying that, I know a
possession for sure. I'm sure ofoppression as well, but, there's
somebody that our family knowsthat, is. And we we've are very,
very confident, could share younumerous stories of how we
(35:15):
experienced this, but for thesake of not trying to give out
that person, throughconversations and also
interesting prayers. Prayersaround that person calls things
to happen and come out inanother person. It's it's crazy.
And this has happened onmultiple occasions. And so based
(35:36):
on this person's life and whatthey did as a child, as an into
their teenage and adult years,Yeah, I really think, and, and
actually now that person in thisin a mental ish hospital. So,
yeah, it's wild.
Kyle (35:56):
So would you say, just in your experience, would you say
that, like, possession tends toyou see more physical?
Jared (36:05):
I I think definitely I think definitely physical. You
know, we see in scripture,there's a lot of weird behaviors
that happen
Nick (36:14):
Right.
Jared (36:14):
From that. Whether it's, was cutting one of them? Yeah.
Yeah. It was cutting and andjust, I think language,
mannerisms and demeanors andjust all the things that and I
experienced a lot of thatexternal.
Kyle (36:31):
You'll see a lot more outlandish behavior, I think,
with possession. Maybe not likeback bending walking on off.
Jared (36:40):
A lot of parents say they they think their kids are us
they're just being normal.Right. Right.
Kyle (36:45):
Exactly. I mean, but I I think that oppression tends to
lend itself to less physicalmanifestations, but also to,
like, people who are moreoppressed than, possessed will
still tend to have their witsabout them. They'll still be
(37:05):
able to articulate spiritualthings. I think I mean, and I
could be wrong because I've notexperienced it a whole lot, but
I think one of the things thatpossession would try to do would
(37:26):
be to pull you away fromspiritual things too.
Nick (37:30):
Yeah. And I think that's a an identifier for me, and and
the difference between the 2 isif somebody is possessed, when
you bring up Jesus or when youbring up biblical principles or
scripture, it is an immediateoutlash
Kyle (37:50):
And rejection.
Nick (37:51):
Rejection of Yeah. Why it it and and the oppression is you
you not being maybe willing tolet go or have faith in in that
area
Kyle (38:10):
Right.
Nick (38:11):
More than something controlling you outwardly.
Kyle (38:17):
Right. Right. Yeah. And that's the thing is, like, it's
kind of taboo to talk aboutespecially in more Baptist
circles. Right?
Nick (38:27):
Well, you know But,
Kyle (38:28):
like, it I mean, it's out there.
Nick (38:30):
Deliverance ministry isn't normally in in on the top of the
list there.
Kyle (38:35):
Not b f and m 2000 approved?
Nick (38:37):
Yeah. Not not really on top of the list there. But
because it can be easily abusedand manipulated and, you know,
it's hard to know and readpeople's hearts all the time,
but that goes back to miraclesand and spiritual and physical
(38:59):
and kind of what we've beentalking about the whole time,
like. Yeah. But I think you'redeceiving your the devil wants
you to not make a big deal abouthim.
Kyle (39:10):
Right. Yeah.
Nick (39:13):
And the Bible clearly tells us the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking tosteal, kill, and destroy. And in
Ephesians 6, when it talks aboutarmor of God, you know, we've
we've fought war against notphysical things, but spiritual
principalities and powers. Yeah.So to ignore those things is
(39:35):
exactly what the devil wants youto do.
Kyle (39:37):
Right. Right.
Jared (39:39):
And the other thing is we all have subjective experiences.
What that may make us think thatbecause we're experienced this
or we've seen somebody act thisway or do something, that
they're automatically Right.Yeah. You know? We we know
somebody else, you know, that'sclose to us that is going
through this right now with afamily member, and they're try
(40:01):
you know, that they've literallythey've questioned that.
And, but, you know, we have togo back to what the Bible tells
us, the information that itgives us that that indwelling of
the holy spirit will notcohabitate with any forces of
darkness. So if you are a truebull I would say I'd go as far
as this. If you are a truebeliever in Jesus, you know him
as your lord and savior, and youput your faith in him. If you
(40:25):
have questioned that, you know,whether or not you are or
somebody you know is, if they'rea true believer, I would say
they're they were not possessed.I would say they were probably
there may be oppression from theout you know, external forces.
But
Kyle (40:39):
I would
Nick (40:43):
I think I'd you saying that made me think about, well,
do I have any body in my lifethat is currently going through
that or shows those signs ortendencies? And a lot of stuff
with depression, you can if youjust ask a person what tell me
what your day looks like.
Jared (41:03):
Mhmm. The time
Nick (41:04):
you wake up, the time you go to bed. A lot of times you
can pinpoint where theoppression is coming from. I'm
isolated. I'm playing Call ofDuty 8 hours a day. Yep.
I have dreams of space. So I Italked to a guy, yeah, and
parents were concerned abouthim. Got him on the phone, and I
(41:24):
have dreams about killingpeople. Well, what do you do?
Well, I play Call of Duty and I,you know well, you know, you
probably quit playing Call ofDuty and
Kyle (41:32):
Yep. Yep. There's definitely some influence there.
Nick (41:35):
You know, for sure. So those things help in figuring
out what to do and how to do itand and you have to humble
yourself. Right?
Kyle (41:45):
Right.
Nick (41:45):
That's another biblical principle to be able to get past
some of those things.
Jared (41:50):
You know, there's a there's a balance of trade off
of because we do know that thethings we wrestle, we just said
that scripture are not againstthe fleshly things. But we tend
to over spiritualize, especiallyif you've been in it for a long
time. Right. And so quick story.I still laugh about it to this
day and the guy that thishappened to, he, Andy, he we all
(42:12):
we both thought it was funny.
But, anyway, we we were at this,conference. It was kinda like a
youth fest or, what they used tocall it, like a choir of the
fire type thing. And, and ourchoir was, singing. And, you
know, it was one of those thingswhere it was a little more
charismatic where it was kind ofmy upbringing, and you know,
(42:35):
people would feel like they hada word that they had to give
somebody. You know, that waskinda like a common thing.
They're like, you'd be you'd besinging, and you look out in the
crowd, and you'd see a kid.You're like, oh, what? God's
telling me to go tell this boysomething. I mean, you know,
just like and so that waspractice quite a bit, not in
some good ways. But, so therewe're at this event and, and
(42:56):
Annie's like, man, I'm sittingthere and I'm looking this guy
and I'm like, oh, man.
He's just guys just put him onmy heart. I've locked eyes with
him several times. And the Lordhas just told me, he's like, he
he's gonna get healing. I just Ijust feel like he's getting to
get healing. And so he said, Iwalked down off that platform
and I went to go pray with thisguy.
I said, hey, man, is thereanything that I
Kyle (43:18):
pray for you for?
Jared (43:20):
I was like, no. I don't think so. I think I'm doing
okay. He's like, are you sure?He's like, yeah.
He's like, man, oh, lord. Justreally I was out there looking
at you. Just laid you on myheart. And the kid's like, man,
I I don't I don't I don't reallyknow. He said, well, okay.
Well, if it's cool, I just kindaat least just pray for it. And
the guy's like, yeah. For sure.He says, I put my hand on his
shoulder, shoulder, and I put myhand on his chest, and he's
like, and I felt this device onhis on his, under his shirt.
(43:45):
And, he says, I'm sitting thereand I'm like, oh man, this guy
has a pacemaker.
Like he's got a heart conditionand he didn't want to tell me.
He says, so I'm likeimmediately. I'm like, God's
just telling me this is it. He'sgoing to be healed from this
heart thing he's got going onright now. He's like, So I'm
just praying.
I'm like, Lord, you know, I justpray, Lord, you just heal and
(44:06):
you just said, I'm going on andon and on. And I just like
confidence will happen, he said.And when we get done praying,
the guy's like, Thanks, man. Hesaid, I looked at that was how
long have you had that thiscondition? He said, man, what
are you talking about?
He said he said, how long haveyou had a heart condition? The
guy, the boy said, I don't haveno heart condition. He said,
(44:26):
what's that? What's the deviceunder your skin? He said he
said, oh, man, this is glow intothe dark necklace they gave us
when we came into this event.
He said, man, I just put my putmy head down and I just walk
back up there. He's like, Icouldn't think about nothing
else. The rest is like, man, Ijust over like spiritualize this
(44:48):
thing in my life. And he's like,we laugh about it to this day.
So, you know, all that to say,like, that's a common thing that
people people just sometimestend to over spiritualize some
things that are just forces ofthis world.
Kyle (45:01):
Right. So I think the key encouragement or not to, you
know, break out the DSM and godiagnose people with possession
today, but, to really usediscernment.
Jared (45:13):
Right. Yep. Discernment is good. Yep.
Nick (45:16):
Yeah. Just back back it up with with Bob. Bob will tell you
everything you need to know.
Kyle (45:21):
That's exactly right.
Nick (45:23):
And if you don't know, then ask.
Kyle (45:25):
Right.
Nick (45:25):
And you'll find somebody.
Kyle (45:29):
Amen. Yeah. Alrighty. Well, y'all feel ready to land
this plane?
Nick (45:36):
Yeah. Alrighty.
Kyle (45:38):
Well, let's do it. Let's do it. Here we go. Let's cue the
music. Alrighty.
I'll thank you all for joiningus today. This has been a fun
episode. Thank you for, sendingin questions, to this asker.
And, again, feel free to send usyour questions because we are
(45:58):
starting to run out. We're gonnahave to start giving you some of
our own topics and ideas.
But, yeah, you can do that. Ifyou have any questions or topic
suggestions, feel free to sendthem in to podcasts, plural, at
gathering surf city dot com, oryou can visit gathering surf
city dot com slash podcast. It'sreally however you wanna do it.
(46:20):
They'll both end up coming tous. But don't forget to go on,
like, share, subscribe if youhaven't already.
You can do that at iTunes,Apple, Apple Podcasts. Spotify,
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(46:44):
reviewing, just be sure to leaveus 5 stars. You can tell us we
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other people to see it.
So, again, thank you all forjoining us today. It's been an
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you have any comments, feel freeto send those too. We like any
(47:05):
feedback that we can get. Y'allhave a great and blessed day,
and we will talk to you later.
Bye.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Walking Together podcast. My
name is Nick Adams. I'm herewith Kyle Lewis Hey. And Jared
Grantham.
Hello. This is the WalkingTogether podcast. And on today's
episode, we're talking aboutKyle, what are we talking about?
Kyle (00:32):
Demons.
Nick (00:33):
Demons. Alright.
Kyle (00:34):
No. What else?
Nick (00:35):
What else we're talking about?
Kyle (00:36):
Not just demons.
Nick (00:37):
Demons and more.
Jared (00:38):
Yeah. Miracles.
Kyle (00:40):
We just found our episode title.
Nick (00:42):
On today's special ones.
Kyle (00:43):
Demons and more. For 3
Nick (00:46):
payments of 1999, you could have those demons
exercised.
Jared (00:52):
We have specific pair of cloths. We've prayed over each
of them.
Kyle (00:57):
Oh, man.
Nick (00:58):
Sorry, guys. I also wanna read a question that was
submitted, couple weeks ago, andwe're gonna try our best to
answer it.
Kyle (01:06):
Yeah. And actually, that's a kind of a hint hint, nudge,
nudge. We're we're running outof questions, so we're about to
have to start coming up withtopics on our own.
Jared (01:13):
Yeah.
Kyle (01:13):
So send us some more questions. Yeah. Alright. So
this week's question is, we saythat we are a people that hangs
our faith on supernaturalthings. Then why oftentimes do
we separate the supernaturalfrom our daily lives?
So spiritual warfare, demonpossession, demonic oppression,
miracles, etc. Do we wronglybelieve that the dimension where
(01:34):
we find ourselves is somehowmore real than the spiritual
realm that created the physical,not the other way around. So,
kinda think how we wanted totackle today is, talking about,
like, the spiritual versus thethe physical and, you know,
typically in our daily lives,we, you know, we're taught to
kinda look at the physicalaround us and not really examine
(01:58):
or pay attention to thespiritual side, as much just
because it's something that wecan't see. So how how do you
guys keep keep that in balance,for your own personal lives?
Because, I mean and I'm justgonna admit right up off the
front, like, even as a pastor,that's something that you that I
struggle with.
(02:19):
You know? You just go aboutliving life and, yeah. Pray and
everything, but sometimes you,don't credit enough, and I think
we can also run the risk of,attributing too much spiritual
stuff too. So how do you keep abalance?
Nick (02:37):
It's, just kinda like with anything. Just because any job
you have, any ministry you have,it can become tedious,
repetitive. You can get in intoa habit and so it's not, you
know, being a pastor reallyisn't a whole lot different than
(02:58):
having a different job.
Kyle (03:00):
Right. You
Nick (03:00):
can, it can be all consuming in in all the in the
wrong ways. Having like, we talkabout a lot about walking
together, having people toremind you, to hold you
accountable, is is a good placeto have balance just in general.
Yeah. Spiritually though, youknow, out of the scripture, I'll
(03:22):
look it up while somebody elseis talking, I can't remember
exactly where and how it'sworded but just it talks about
fixing our minds on eternalthings. Mhmm.
And when you stop and thinkabout that, you'll realize that
I don't think about spiritualeternal things as much as the
(03:45):
here now physical, but when I doit makes the here now physical
less important. Right.
Kyle (03:52):
It flips that perspective.
Nick (03:54):
Thankfully, I get to get reminded almost every Wednesday
when we go to do prayer, like,Jesus provided the healing,
Jesus provides the way, and it'salready provided. So just
because you don't get physicalearthly healing or physical
earthly blessing doesn't ifyou're not thinking about
(04:16):
spiritual things, eternalthings, then those worldly
issues are gonna drag you down,kill you. Just Right. That get
you'll get imbalanced.
Kyle (04:27):
Right. And that that's something that, you know, I've
just in our conversation beforepressing record, you know, kind
of another reminder. And everynow and then, I'm reminded to
remember that, you know,spiritual stuff is the
foundation for everything else.You know? You had mentioned,
(04:47):
like, even creation.
Creation was more spiritual thanit was physical. There was
spiritual before there wasphysical. And, you know, that is
that way for everything. Youknow? It's just not to get all
super, super sociological andpsychological, but like, you
(05:08):
know, Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds.
Right. You, You you all rememberthat? You all remember that?
Jared (05:15):
You're gonna have to remind me about that one.
Kyle (05:17):
So it's like you have your physical needs, and then it gets
all the way up to, like, selfactualization. Okay. Right? So
but as needs are fulfilled andtaken care of, you move up to
the next layer. Mhmm.
So, very first thing is, like,shelter. Gotcha. Right? But once
you have shelter, you don'treally think about shelter
(05:38):
anymore. You know, whenever youget food source, you don't
really think about food sourceanymore.
Of course, you know, we've movedup a long way in that where we
don't, you know, we're not ahunter gatherer society anymore,
so we don't really think aboutthat. You know? I go hunt and
(05:59):
gather at the grocery store now.You don't have to make plans to
go hunt for, you know, take aweek long hunting trip to feed
your family for the next 3months. Right.
But I think I think of that inthe same way as, you know, how
we see we've moved beyond, like,our spiritual foundation. It
isn't just a second thoughtanymore. It's not we don't
(06:23):
realize. We've skipped thatlayer that is the actually the
foundation that everything elseis built upon.
Jared (06:28):
Yeah.
Nick (06:29):
So that verse was Colossians 3, 2, and 3. Think
about the things of heaven, notthe things of earth for you died
to this life and your real lifeis hidden with Christ in God for
those of you that believe. Andthat just can pertain not just
(06:52):
to heaven, not just to eternalthings, but spiritual things,
things you can't see Right.Which Paul mentions in several
letters in the New Testament.
Kyle (07:04):
Yeah. Jerry, do you have anything to add?
Jared (07:07):
Yeah. You know, we were talking about what do people
typically mean when they say theword miracle. So I know the
first thing that comes to mymind is things that are related
to the physical. We would say,someone being healed from, say,
a terminal disease that wasn'tgiven, you know, a promise of
(07:29):
life. You know, someone that is,maybe injured in the hospital
and needing a recovery, like,that's one of the the things
that you would think about oreven being raised from the dead.
Right? When we think about themiracles in the life of Jesus,
those are the things that wesee. But we would also say, you
(07:52):
know, I I think we couldprobably throw into that the
demon possession would beconsidered, you know, sort of a
miracle. How many people didJesus raise from the dead?
Kyle (08:04):
Besides himself.
Nick (08:09):
23? 2? I was gonna say 2 is Lazarus.
Kyle (08:12):
I was gonna say Lazarus.
Nick (08:15):
The boy. Was where the other 2 didn't have a name,
really. They weren't namedpeople.
Kyle (08:20):
It was a little girl.
Jared (08:21):
So yeah. So there's only, you know, 3 instances. And and
one of the things that I, that Ilike, I think John Piper said
was, you know, we, there's farless miracles in the Bible than
you would realize, and there'sprobably far more miracles that
take place in the world todaythan we even realize.
Kyle (08:41):
Oh, yeah.
Jared (08:41):
You know, when you think about all of the people who are,
you know, serving in differentcountries, all the missionaries,
churches, and things that arehappening, There's there's
probably miracles that aretaking place. I mean, we we've
all probably experiencedfinancial miracles. I mean, in a
sense, where where is this gonnacome from? How I'm gonna do
this? And then out of nowhere,you you get a check-in the mail.
(09:01):
Wow. You know, that's andthere's other instances I think
we could probably relate to.But, typically, we just seem to
focus on the the other thing Ithink is, you know, when you
look all throughout scripture,the old testament and the new
testament, the idea like, if youespecially if you go back and
read the old testament, I mean,people are are really living by
faith on God's promises. And,you know, was there more
(09:24):
miracles in the days of Elijahor or than Moses? I mean, you
know, if you if you kinda lookat that and see it's we see
glimpses of it.
But what we like to focus on alot of times in the the church
Christian world is what whattook place in the book of acts
or, you know, or other places inthe New Testament and try to
create that as normative. Whenwhat what that was serving the
(09:48):
purpose for, specifically inacts is like the growing of the
church, the foundation, and whatJesus left to the disciples,
apostles, and the ministrythat's taken place there in in
order to further the gospel.Right? The instance we talked
about is, you know, when you seePaul in Acts and, you know, a
(10:11):
lot of things that are takingplace, they're healing, they're
walking by, he's speaking, takeup your bed and walk, and boom.
You know, you see this happen.
But then we also see, you know,when he writes to Timothy, and I
think it's first Timothy chapter5 where, you know, he's sick,
and he's like, you know, take alittle bit of wine for your
stomach. And, you know, it'slike, well, man, if if the
(10:34):
things were the exact same wayback then, why didn't you just
speak to him and say be healed?And so, you know, I I think a
lot of times, we try to make anormative things out, or they
should be normative when maybethey're they're not as they
should be. Right. That makessense.
Kyle (10:50):
Yeah. Yeah. No. That that makes perfect sense.
Nick (10:54):
It helps, it helps me to write those things down.
Kyle (11:00):
Yeah.
Nick (11:01):
I'm not a I'm not a I wouldn't say I'm a very
creative, literate person, but,journaling is something that I
don't do it every day. I don'tdo it every week. When something
(11:24):
happens that is not normal and Iwrite it down, when things are
happening out of my control orgoing through depression or or
just feeling like you're gettingthe short end of the stick all
the time, having that to go backto is like just like the the
parables in the Bible, just likethe those accounts of those
(11:48):
things, and it's it's areminder, like, God's still
doing, God's still working.Yeah. God's still, you know
Jared (11:55):
Yeah. I mean, when you look at what Jesus said in John
chapter 10, he says in verse 37,if I'm not doing the works of my
father, then do not believe me.In other words, the works are
evidence that I'm in the fatherand the father is in me. Mhmm.
I'm unique.
I am the son of God. This istrue. Like, everything that was
for that purpose was what? Topoint back to
Kyle (12:17):
Right.
Jared (12:18):
To God. Yeah. We we pray and as much as we'd like to see,
and I think God can still youknow, if if it's his will and
his plan, you know, thingsprobably happen. That's should I
be alive breathing, having asmany things as I do now? Yeah.
And and and the blessings. No.Right? Any of us. So if if God
(12:38):
wants and is his desire and hiswill, it'll happen.
But, you know, everything thatJesus was doing, it was a point
back. Right. You know? Yep.
Nick (12:47):
I think I think you can get caught up in the a miracle
is just a sign, right, to pointyou to something that Exactly.
To point you to God. And And alot of times you can get hung up
on the sign because no matterhow flashy it is, like, you can
get or the person holding thesign. Like, that's you you put
your faith in. And I think Godwill do something.
(13:10):
God will truly use somebody, andthen I don't you don't know what
it is, whether it's pressure,outside pressure from people,
but they people want you to doit again and again and again.
Right. And and then it turnsinto a whole another thing.
Right?
Kyle (13:29):
Yeah.
Nick (13:30):
And instead of it just pointing to God, now it's
pointing to you.
Jared (13:33):
Right. Yep. Yeah.
Nick (13:38):
So it miracles are are wonderful. There's a wonder of
God. Right? But they're just asign to point you to God.
Kyle (13:49):
Exactly. I don't
Jared (13:50):
know about you. I I just grew up I felt like in some in
some bad teaching theology. Youknow, it's like if you had
enough faith, if you prayed theright prayer, if it was eloquent
eloquent. Sorry. If you youknow, there's a certain formula
you gotta have.
And you see it a lot in the wordfaith movement. Like, you know,
(14:12):
well, it was just because youdon't have enough faith that it
happens. And so but when so Iwould go, this is just as a kid,
I remember being like, alright.Alright. I'm a pray to God, the
father, this time because he Imean, I've just been praying to
Jesus, and that didn't I don'tknow.
He's busy. I mean, I I literallyremember it as a kid, like,
(14:35):
trying to okay. Maybe if I saythe words and more eloquent like
King James style, then he'llknow I'm serious. And then
meanwhile, Lord, father God, andI beseech thee. And and in the
meantime, Jesus walking, hegoes, get up.
(14:57):
So, you know, there's some badbad teaching that I had to kinda
get delivered of to think, youknow, that I should have gotten
or
Nick (15:06):
Right. Yeah. We can again, you somebody will have a gift or
get a gift given from the HolySpirit and you're like, man, I
need to do it like that person'sdoing it.
Jared (15:20):
Yeah. Yep.
Kyle (15:24):
So we've I mean, we've already kind of broached the
topic a little bit, but with,with miracles and seeing
spiritual and supernaturalstuff. I mean, have y'all ever
seen miracles? Ever experiencedany?
Nick (15:37):
Yes. Definitely. But going back to something Jared said, I
believe there's there'sdifferent classifications or
kinds. So what, I don't know howfar you wanna go with it. I
don't know.
Definitely experienced financialmiracles. I've definitely heard
and seen God do things that arenot normal.
Jared (16:01):
Right. Well, I mean, if we're classifying for the sake
of, you know, the dictionary, asurprising and welcoming event
that is not explicable by natureor scientific laws, therefore,
considered the work of a divineagency. Almost
Kyle (16:18):
thanks Miriam.
Nick (16:20):
Almost every near about every week don't you hear about
somebody going in for a cancersurgery and they go in and it
ain't there?
Kyle (16:29):
Yeah. He's there.
Nick (16:30):
I mean, what is that? Right.
Jared (16:32):
Yeah. Actually, yep. Absolutely.
Kyle (16:36):
Yeah. So I mean, I'm same boat. What does that cause you
to do though?
Nick (16:43):
Well, it goes back to sometimes, I mean, being honest,
like, sometimes we've made thatnormative. Like, we we talk
about it casually sometimes.
Kyle (16:52):
Mhmm.
Nick (16:53):
Yeah. And it's like Yeah. Well, great. That's good. That's
great.
Alright.
Kyle (16:58):
Man, alright. You know, you got
Nick (16:59):
We don't celebrate. We need you need to celebrate
those. Like, you celebratewhat's important.
Kyle (17:05):
Right.
Nick (17:06):
And sometimes those things are just kinda brushed or Right.
I've I have it's you know, I'veprayed for certain things and
and they've happened. And I'veprayed for certain things and
they haven't. And it was agrowing experience. So I,
Jared (17:29):
a quick story. I'll tell you. I had about a, I don't
know, $35100 miracle happenedrecently on this trip that we
went on. It's totally a godthing how it all orchestrated
and lined up. But for those whodon't know, we were on a road
trip with our family.
And, you know, basically, weended up in a place in Colorado.
(17:50):
Never been before. I had beenworking through this,
application thing for us, like apastoral thing. You know, it was
kinda like a spiritual renewalcounseling thing that we we did.
And, and blessed us and ourfamily financially in a way that
(18:15):
we ended up in the town that itwas in.
We've never been in on the daythat it was supposed to happen,
and those people actually hadsomebody to sponsor for us to
go. And when we embarked on thistrip back in, you know, June
July, the the the thing thespiritual renewal pastoral thing
(18:36):
was in November, and I Iwouldn't even plan on being
there in November. And it'scrazy as we're as I'm filling
out this application process, Imean, there's so many god
moments throughout it, but theshort version for the sake of
this podcast is how, like, Iliterally in tears. Our family
just blown away by how Godworked this out. And he knew
that even long before we weregonna be in Littleton, Colorado,
(18:59):
of all places, that we'd bethere on that day when it was
supposed to happen, and God wasgonna work out all details so we
could go.
And I'm like, man, if that ain'ta miracle, like, I don't know.
Nick (19:10):
You saying that reminded me of something, that it's hard
for me to tell, but, and I don'twanna make a long story short
and try to try not to because II don't know if the part of this
blessed and embossed people, andI don't know if those people
necessarily want other people toknow that they were part of it.
(19:31):
Right. But to make a long storyshort, we were helping some
people because I had the abilityand skills to do it, and I just
took off of work and went anddone it. And, it took 3, 4 days,
and it was in a different state.And I went and and did it.
(19:57):
And this this couple had, youknow, this kinda terrible thing
happened and prayed about it.Had $2,000 in savings, but, they
needed prayed about it anddetermined, we're gonna give
(20:22):
them $1,000. Tried to make it,what do
Jared (20:30):
you call it? Anonymous? Yes.
Nick (20:33):
Anyway, they ended up figuring it out, but during the
time all this is happening, itwas it was during the time I'm
going to school, just started anew job, kinda started over,
Still trying to learn theheating and air thing, but know
enough to know enough to help.Anyway, Chrissy had bunions. And
(20:59):
and it's funny when I first whenI used to hear that term, I
thought like, oh, you got likebig corns on the side of your
feet. It don't it's a terrible abad sound of words. Right.
But her bones on her big toesgrew in Yeah. And dancing
through the years and all that'staking ballet and all that stuff
(21:21):
didn't help. Anyway, her feethad gotten so bad she would have
trouble walking, especially ifshe didn't wear special shoes
and get to the end of the night.And sometimes, like, I would
have to carry her. Well, thissurgery because we had kind of
(21:42):
started over, like, we gotcatastrophic insurance
deductible $7,000.
I'm flying with me. We ain'tgot. I don't know. I'm praying
this whole, like, Lord, you'regonna have to do something
because we don't anyway, thesethese people don't know this.
(22:05):
About we did that in the summer,it gets fall.
This is months after. And, comehome and there is $7,000 at my
door in an envelope. Wow. Andthat's what pays to get Krissy's
(22:28):
feet fixed. And, every time Itell that story, like, you can't
you can't you can't make the youcan't make it up.
You can't I couldn't even, youknow, and for God to be that
gracious and orchestrative Mhmm.Is just wild, you know. Yeah.
(22:54):
And yeah. So there is timeswhere if you would just have
faith, like, God provides.
And there's sometimes when youdon't have faith and God's just
trying to show you, hey, if youwould just trust me a little
bit.
Kyle (23:10):
Right.
Nick (23:11):
And, you know, that was what was it? 3 or 4 years ago.
But it was like, I don't andnothing ever happened to me like
that. In that in that way
Kyle (23:22):
Right.
Nick (23:23):
I've gotten the the checks in the mail and those are all
those are miracles. Those areblessings. But it was just like,
It was a lot was a long timeexperience for me. Yeah. And it
just it changed the blessingwasn't so much the $7,000.
(23:46):
It was great. We got Right. Butit changed it changed mine and
Christie's faith and made ourmarriage stronger, made our
parenting better, made it madeeverything better. Right.
Kyle (23:57):
Do y'all think that we talk about miracles enough then?
No.
Nick (24:01):
Because you're scared. You because it's like, I get
emotional every time I tell thatstory because it is so I
Jared (24:09):
think people are also afraid that, well, what if it
doesn't happen? Right. Maybe,you know, there's that side of
the whole thing.
Kyle (24:18):
Well, see, so here here's the thing that I'm sitting here
thinking about. It's like, man,I don't I hear so much about,
like, we attribute bad things toSatan all the time. So getting
into the demonic oppressionstuff here in just a little bit,
but, like, we I was joking withNick. Nick said that his watch
(24:38):
broke. I'm like, man, well, thedevil broke your watch.
Right? Like, man, we'll say thatabout little stupid stuff, but
whenever god does somethingawesome, you know, we don't we
don't talk about it enough.
Nick (24:48):
You know what I mean? You're I don't know if it's
because, like, you're scaredmaybe what if god takes it away?
Or what if that, you know, a lotof times it'll be this happened
to my grandparents. It's funny.I still got this newspaper and
(25:09):
it's up on my garage wall toremind me of this.
My grandma had pancreaticcancer, Went through chemo,
gone. Right? Did an article inthe paper, pastor and his wife.
Did a whole faith art. It was itwas Yeah.
It was a cool thing. Normallydon't put stuff on paper. Right?
Kyle (25:33):
Right. Right.
Nick (25:36):
About 2 months after that, it came back and just the
blessing in that was it made mefind my faith because Right. My
whole family's faith was builtoff of my grandparents. Mhmm.
And there's a lot of terriblethings happened after that. But
through that, everybody gottheir own faith.
Kyle (25:58):
Yeah.
Nick (25:58):
My mom, my uncles, my grandkid, like, everybody. It
was a blessing. Yeah. But duringthat time, it was like we claim
named it and claimed it, andthen it happened, and now it
Yeah. And it it may it makes youfeel like a fool sometimes.
Kyle (26:20):
Yeah.
Jared (26:21):
There's a I won't say for second names, but there is a
popular, I I guess you could saypreacher. There's a popular
person that does, pastoral ishwork in the world. And, I'm I'm
trying to you know? But my pointis I'm not trying to be funny,
(26:44):
but it was one of the name ofthe claim. It's a word of faith.
Yeah. You know, if you don't ifyou don't get healed, it's
because you don't have enoughfaith. You don't you ain't
praying, you ain't believing,you aren't so and so. And has
been recorded to say that manytimes in his ministry. And his
wife got cancer
Nick (27:03):
Mhmm.
Jared (27:03):
And passed away. And I remember what he said
afterwards, you know, becauseit's like, how do you how do you
say that one thing? Is itbecause and, you know, it's
like, you know, God used thatsituation to help. I think it
also helped shape his belief inhis teaching Right. After
(27:26):
experiencing that.
And a lot of times, you know, wewant to feel good. We want to
see the
Kyle (27:31):
thing
Jared (27:31):
and praise and all. And that's great when it happens,
but when it what about when itdoesn't happen? You know? What
what about when that person'snot healed or, you know, they
don't come back to life or
Nick (27:44):
Right.
Jared (27:44):
Or they don't walk again or
Kyle (27:47):
see. And that's something that I was just thinking of,
too, is like the, Websterdefinition. Right. It was like
it's a welcoming thing. Do y'allthink miracles are always
welcoming?
Nick (28:01):
No. But I was just about to say, like, you have to remind
me it's not about you. Right.
Jared (28:06):
It's not
Nick (28:06):
about Yeah. You getting credit or you being able to put
your stamp on it or put yourfinger on it as to this is how I
figured it out. Like, just likethat my grandma going through
pancreatic cancer and dying, theblessing was later. Right. And
so at the time and only God cansee that.
(28:29):
Like, God, you know, you cangive me illustration. God God
can see the parade from thebeginning to the end and all the
Yeah. Floats, all the things inbetween, and we can't. So
Jared (28:39):
Yeah. Something that happened in the last couple
years, a good friend of mine,his, his mom got cancer and
passed away. And, she wasn't aChristian in her life growing
up. So he said all throughout mychildhood and my adulthood. And
he said that she got cancer.
And she lived about 2 years, Ithink, year and a half, 2 years
(29:03):
from the time. And he said shefound God in a way that I had
never experienced. That everytime we we went there and talked
to her, she was she'd beenpraying. She'd been reading her
Bible. She got back involved inmy son's lives, involved in
family dinners, he said.
And she started coming to churchwith us. She got involved in
church. She you know, basicallyher whole life. And, right
(29:29):
before she passed away, shesaid, you know, if getting
cancer was what got my securefor me to know Jesus and have my
eternal life.
Nick (29:40):
Mhmm.
Jared (29:41):
That was worth every bit of it. Yep. And she said, you
know, what did that look likebefore I had cancer? I didn't
care anything about. And shesaid it was the best thing that
ever happened to me.
And I was like, dang.
Kyle (29:56):
See so and that's the thing is, like, we that's why I
hate that. I actually hate thatdefinition. A welcoming event.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, man, sometimes a miraclewas can be one of the worst
things that's ever happened toyou. And that's why I think it's
just the irony in that weattribute things that we
consider to be bad. We'll be thefirst people to accredit it to
(30:21):
Satan, you know? And then he'slike, I didn't do that. Right?
Right. And so I think we can goahead and jump into that next
point that, the question wasbringing up is like, so how do
we consider, like, demonicoppression and possession and
spiritual warfare? You know?Like, are those things real,
first off? And, I think theanswer around the table would be
(30:42):
a resounding yes, but, b, youknow, why are we either quick to
a credit or discredit or,certain things?
And I think some of it can bebased on how we even view
miracles. So since we've kind oftalked about that a little bit
now, you know, it's so goingback to, you know, I was joking
(31:05):
about Nick's watch and sayinghow will credit, you know,
little things to Satan. Littlenuisance things, right, to,
like, demonic oppression. Yeah.You know, and, we're so hesitant
to talk about So miracles.
Nick (31:20):
Anyway For, explain the difference For people that's
between possession and Yeah.Oppression.
Kyle (31:32):
Yeah. I think that's best first stop. First step.
Jared (31:35):
I would, I would say possession would be to inhabit
Yeah. Within. You know, as wesee through scripture, where
different people had been demonpossessed, that when the, demon
was cast out, it went out oftheir, their bodies. Right?
Nick (31:58):
Mhmm.
Jared (31:59):
So that that resident, that inhabitants, that in
control, I think I view you guysmay have a different opinion,
but I think oppression is moreof an external outside force. It
doesn't live within and controlwhat you do, but tries to
influence Right. In a sense whatyou do. You know, there's no, we
(32:21):
have to use the Bible as, youknow, truth because it is.
There's no example in scriptureof a Christian being possessed
by the Right.
Right.
Kyle (32:31):
Yeah. And I so I was actually gonna read John 1
because I think it it it pointsout it's a biblical principle to
point that out. I'll go aheadand read, oh, first five verses
of John 1, but it says in thebeginning was the word and the
word was with God and the wordwas God. He was with God in the
beginning and all things werecreated through him. And apart
(32:52):
from him, not one thing wascreated that has been created in
him was life, and that life wasthe light of men.
And that light shines in thedarkness, and yet the darkness
did not overcome it.
Jared (33:03):
Yeah.
Kyle (33:03):
So, I mean, so where there's light, there can't be
the of darkness. Right? Right.Yeah. Residency.
Yeah. I mean, so if if you'vegot the the light of Christ in
you, if you have that life, thatlife that is the light of men,
like, you can't be, inhabited.But surely, you can have the,
(33:30):
demonic and
Jared (33:31):
Well, we're influenced already by the Right. The world.
Right? Right. Right.
And the world is e the worldinfluence on us helps also to
dictate and control ourbehaviors. Right. Do we submit
to it or not? You know, secondCorinthians 6 is an example that
I think talks about, you know,with the true believer. When
(33:52):
Paul's writing, he says, whatharmony has Christ would love or
what has a believer in commonwith an unbeliever or what
agreement has the temple of Godwith idols?
For we are the temple of theliving God, Just as God said, I
will dwell in them and will walkamong them, and I will be their
God, and they shall be mypeople. And I think as God
(34:12):
resides and we are his peopleand went to it. I don't think
those 2 things can indwelltogether. Right. Yeah.
Kyle (34:18):
But they can't. They can't. The house divided against
itself cannot stand.
Jared (34:25):
That's a that's a NC State ECU reference. Right?
Kyle (34:32):
But, but yeah. So no. I think that's a I think those are
good definitions for, oppressionand possession. I mean, but so
let me ask y'all. Have y'allever seen, like, demonic
oppression or possession.
Yes. You've seen both?
Jared (34:52):
I know well, I'm as you're saying that, I know a
possession for sure. I'm sure ofoppression as well, but, there's
somebody that our family knowsthat, is. And we we've are very,
very confident, could share younumerous stories of how we
(35:15):
experienced this, but for thesake of not trying to give out
that person, throughconversations and also
interesting prayers. Prayersaround that person calls things
to happen and come out inanother person. It's it's crazy.
And this has happened onmultiple occasions. And so based
(35:36):
on this person's life and whatthey did as a child, as an into
their teenage and adult years,Yeah, I really think, and, and
actually now that person in thisin a mental ish hospital. So,
yeah, it's wild.
Kyle (35:56):
So would you say, just in your experience, would you say
that, like, possession tends toyou see more physical?
Jared (36:05):
I I think definitely I think definitely physical. You
know, we see in scripture,there's a lot of weird behaviors
that happen
Nick (36:14):
Right.
Jared (36:14):
From that. Whether it's, was cutting one of them? Yeah.
Yeah. It was cutting and andjust, I think language,
mannerisms and demeanors andjust all the things that and I
experienced a lot of thatexternal.
Kyle (36:31):
You'll see a lot more outlandish behavior, I think,
with possession. Maybe not likeback bending walking on off.
Jared (36:40):
A lot of parents say they they think their kids are us
they're just being normal.Right. Right.
Kyle (36:45):
Exactly. I mean, but I I think that oppression tends to
lend itself to less physicalmanifestations, but also to,
like, people who are moreoppressed than, possessed will
still tend to have their witsabout them. They'll still be
(37:05):
able to articulate spiritualthings. I think I mean, and I
could be wrong because I've notexperienced it a whole lot, but
I think one of the things thatpossession would try to do would
(37:26):
be to pull you away fromspiritual things too.
Nick (37:30):
Yeah. And I think that's a an identifier for me, and and
the difference between the 2 isif somebody is possessed, when
you bring up Jesus or when youbring up biblical principles or
scripture, it is an immediateoutlash
Kyle (37:50):
And rejection.
Nick (37:51):
Rejection of Yeah. Why it it and and the oppression is you
you not being maybe willing tolet go or have faith in in that
area
Kyle (38:10):
Right.
Nick (38:11):
More than something controlling you outwardly.
Kyle (38:17):
Right. Right. Yeah. And that's the thing is, like, it's
kind of taboo to talk aboutespecially in more Baptist
circles. Right?
Nick (38:27):
Well, you know But,
Kyle (38:28):
like, it I mean, it's out there.
Nick (38:30):
Deliverance ministry isn't normally in in on the top of the
list there.
Kyle (38:35):
Not b f and m 2000 approved?
Nick (38:37):
Yeah. Not not really on top of the list there. But
because it can be easily abusedand manipulated and, you know,
it's hard to know and readpeople's hearts all the time,
but that goes back to miraclesand and spiritual and physical
(38:59):
and kind of what we've beentalking about the whole time,
like. Yeah. But I think you'redeceiving your the devil wants
you to not make a big deal abouthim.
Kyle (39:10):
Right. Yeah.
Nick (39:13):
And the Bible clearly tells us the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking tosteal, kill, and destroy. And in
Ephesians 6, when it talks aboutarmor of God, you know, we've
we've fought war against notphysical things, but spiritual
principalities and powers. Yeah.So to ignore those things is
(39:35):
exactly what the devil wants youto do.
Kyle (39:37):
Right. Right.
Jared (39:39):
And the other thing is we all have subjective experiences.
What that may make us think thatbecause we're experienced this
or we've seen somebody act thisway or do something, that
they're automatically Right.Yeah. You know? We we know
somebody else, you know, that'sclose to us that is going
through this right now with afamily member, and they're try
(40:01):
you know, that they've literallythey've questioned that.
And, but, you know, we have togo back to what the Bible tells
us, the information that itgives us that that indwelling of
the holy spirit will notcohabitate with any forces of
darkness. So if you are a truebull I would say I'd go as far
as this. If you are a truebeliever in Jesus, you know him
as your lord and savior, and youput your faith in him. If you
(40:25):
have questioned that, you know,whether or not you are or
somebody you know is, if they'rea true believer, I would say
they're they were not possessed.I would say they were probably
there may be oppression from theout you know, external forces.
But
Kyle (40:39):
I would
Nick (40:43):
I think I'd you saying that made me think about, well,
do I have any body in my lifethat is currently going through
that or shows those signs ortendencies? And a lot of stuff
with depression, you can if youjust ask a person what tell me
what your day looks like.
Jared (41:03):
Mhmm. The time
Nick (41:04):
you wake up, the time you go to bed. A lot of times you
can pinpoint where theoppression is coming from. I'm
isolated. I'm playing Call ofDuty 8 hours a day. Yep.
I have dreams of space. So I Italked to a guy, yeah, and
parents were concerned abouthim. Got him on the phone, and I
(41:24):
have dreams about killingpeople. Well, what do you do?
Well, I play Call of Duty and I,you know well, you know, you
probably quit playing Call ofDuty and
Kyle (41:32):
Yep. Yep. There's definitely some influence there.
Nick (41:35):
You know, for sure. So those things help in figuring
out what to do and how to do itand and you have to humble
yourself. Right?
Kyle (41:45):
Right.
Nick (41:45):
That's another biblical principle to be able to get past
some of those things.
Jared (41:50):
You know, there's a there's a balance of trade off
of because we do know that thethings we wrestle, we just said
that scripture are not againstthe fleshly things. But we tend
to over spiritualize, especiallyif you've been in it for a long
time. Right. And so quick story.I still laugh about it to this
day and the guy that thishappened to, he, Andy, he we all
(42:12):
we both thought it was funny.
But, anyway, we we were at this,conference. It was kinda like a
youth fest or, what they used tocall it, like a choir of the
fire type thing. And, and ourchoir was, singing. And, you
know, it was one of those thingswhere it was a little more
charismatic where it was kind ofmy upbringing, and you know,
(42:35):
people would feel like they hada word that they had to give
somebody. You know, that waskinda like a common thing.
They're like, you'd be you'd besinging, and you look out in the
crowd, and you'd see a kid.You're like, oh, what? God's
telling me to go tell this boysomething. I mean, you know,
just like and so that waspractice quite a bit, not in
some good ways. But, so therewe're at this event and, and
(42:56):
Annie's like, man, I'm sittingthere and I'm looking this guy
and I'm like, oh, man.
He's just guys just put him onmy heart. I've locked eyes with
him several times. And the Lordhas just told me, he's like, he
he's gonna get healing. I just Ijust feel like he's getting to
get healing. And so he said, Iwalked down off that platform
and I went to go pray with thisguy.
I said, hey, man, is thereanything that I
Kyle (43:18):
pray for you for?
Jared (43:20):
I was like, no. I don't think so. I think I'm doing
okay. He's like, are you sure?He's like, yeah.
He's like, man, oh, lord. Justreally I was out there looking
at you. Just laid you on myheart. And the kid's like, man,
I I don't I don't I don't reallyknow. He said, well, okay.
Well, if it's cool, I just kindaat least just pray for it. And
the guy's like, yeah. For sure.He says, I put my hand on his
shoulder, shoulder, and I put myhand on his chest, and he's
like, and I felt this device onhis on his, under his shirt.
(43:45):
And, he says, I'm sitting thereand I'm like, oh man, this guy
has a pacemaker.
Like he's got a heart conditionand he didn't want to tell me.
He says, so I'm likeimmediately. I'm like, God's
just telling me this is it. He'sgoing to be healed from this
heart thing he's got going onright now. He's like, So I'm
just praying.
I'm like, Lord, you know, I justpray, Lord, you just heal and
(44:06):
you just said, I'm going on andon and on. And I just like
confidence will happen, he said.And when we get done praying,
the guy's like, Thanks, man. Hesaid, I looked at that was how
long have you had that thiscondition? He said, man, what
are you talking about?
He said he said, how long haveyou had a heart condition? The
guy, the boy said, I don't haveno heart condition. He said,
(44:26):
what's that? What's the deviceunder your skin? He said he
said, oh, man, this is glow intothe dark necklace they gave us
when we came into this event.
He said, man, I just put my putmy head down and I just walk
back up there. He's like, Icouldn't think about nothing
else. The rest is like, man, Ijust over like spiritualize this
(44:48):
thing in my life. And he's like,we laugh about it to this day.
So, you know, all that to say,like, that's a common thing that
people people just sometimestend to over spiritualize some
things that are just forces ofthis world.
Kyle (45:01):
Right. So I think the key encouragement or not to, you
know, break out the DSM and godiagnose people with possession
today, but, to really usediscernment.
Jared (45:13):
Right. Yep. Discernment is good. Yep.
Nick (45:16):
Yeah. Just back back it up with with Bob. Bob will tell you
everything you need to know.
Kyle (45:21):
That's exactly right.
Nick (45:23):
And if you don't know, then ask.
Kyle (45:25):
Right.
Nick (45:25):
And you'll find somebody.
Kyle (45:29):
Amen. Yeah. Alrighty. Well, y'all feel ready to land
this plane?
Nick (45:36):
Yeah. Alrighty.
Kyle (45:38):
Well, let's do it. Let's do it. Here we go. Let's cue the
music. Alrighty.
I'll thank you all for joiningus today. This has been a fun
episode. Thank you for, sendingin questions, to this asker.
And, again, feel free to send usyour questions because we are
(45:58):
starting to run out. We're gonnahave to start giving you some of
our own topics and ideas.
But, yeah, you can do that. Ifyou have any questions or topic
suggestions, feel free to sendthem in to podcasts, plural, at
gathering surf city dot com, oryou can visit gathering surf
city dot com slash podcast. It'sreally however you wanna do it.
(46:20):
They'll both end up coming tous. But don't forget to go on,
like, share, subscribe if youhaven't already.
You can do that at iTunes,Apple, Apple Podcasts. Spotify,
Google Podcasts is no longer athing, but, I mean, if you can
still pull it up, review usthere too. But whenever you're
(46:44):
reviewing, just be sure to leaveus 5 stars. You can tell us we
suck, just as long as it's, weget the 5 stars. Really helps
other people to see it.
So, again, thank you all forjoining us today. It's been an
awesome time, and it has been apleasure being able to share
with you all some of thesethings and thoughts. Also, if
you have any comments, feel freeto send those too. We like any
(47:05):
feedback that we can get. Y'allhave a great and blessed day,
and we will talk to you later.
Bye.
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