March 15, 2024 • 42 mins
When Kira Omans opens up about her life as a transracial adoptee, you can't help but be drawn into her world. Her narrative is not just a story of adoption but a profound testament to the search for identity and belonging. In today's conversation, we navigate Kira's childhood and growth into a confident Chinese American, actress, and advocate for the adoptee community. Her candid reflections on the complexities of fitting in and the evolving nature of her relationship with her own adoption narrative give voice to the struggles and victories that color the experiences of countless others like her.
Our conversation takes a turn towards the broader cultural conversation, examining how adoptees are portrayed in media and public perception. Kira's insights into these portrayals and the often misunderstood motives behind adoptees' searches for biological connections challenge the oversimplified narratives perpetuated by society. This discussion is an invitation to consider the depth behind each adoptee's story and to appreciate the nuanced representation that authentic voices like Kira's can provide.
Perhaps most impactful is the chapter in which Kira and I explore the often-overlooked issue of pre-verbal trauma and its deep-seated effects on adoptees. Our intimate dialogue on abandonment fears, anxiety, and the journey towards healing challenges listeners to acknowledge and validate the emotional complexities that lay hidden beneath the surface of many adoption stories. This episode not only aims to shed light on these intricate emotions and behaviors but also serves as a call to action for advocacy, education, and adoption reform.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
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Website: https://www.kiraomans.com/actor
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
People are.
People in our community areraising their voices in a
meaningful way and affectingchange in the narrative and what
people are hearing, especiallyin the generations to come.
I think that I have a lot ofhope for moving the needle
forward, like you said.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of the adoption life,identity search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, kira.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, it's an honor to have you.
We always like to have spacefor our adoptee community and I
like to just really kick it offwith a little bit of an
introduction from you about you.
Would you mind sharing with usyou know kind of who you are and
give us as much detail as youwant about your adoption journey
?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Sure.
I was adopted from Zhongshan,china, when I was about 10
months old.
I had been found by the side ofa bridge when I was four months
old and then brought to thewelfare center, brought to the
hospital and then brought to theorphanage where my parents
would eventually meet me.
I grew up in the DC area.
(01:34):
I'm a transracial adoptee, somy parents are white and I have
a younger brother adopted fromKorea, and a younger sister who
is my parents biological child.
So, like I said, I grew up inthe DC area and now I live in
Los Angeles where I work as afull-time actor.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Well, I love parts of your story, and parts of your
story are also going to beheartbreaking, and I think that
when I first met you, kira,after we hung up, was each of us
have connection and we're goingto, we're going to divulge.
You and I are generations apartin age, and yet we still
connected very strongly in ourfirst meeting, and so I would
(02:16):
like to ask you a few morequestions about your adoption
journey as you were growing up.
What did that mean to you to beadopted in all the context that
you just laid out for ourlisteners?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, so growing up, I think my parents did a good job
of introducing my adoptionstory to me early in a very
child-friendly way so that itwas able to mature as I did,
which I'm very grateful to themfor.
I think that they did the bestthat they had with the resources
that were available to them atthat time.
(02:50):
I think that I had as healthy arelationship with my adoption
story as I could have and stillthere were things that I felt
could have been done better andI felt that there were things
that were just lacking andthings that I felt missing
support that I felt was missing.
Again, despite also having atrans-racially adopted brother
(03:13):
as well to share that experiencewith.
I think that growing up, I justso wanted to be like all the
other kids and being adopted andbeing in a multiracial family
made me different and I didn'twant to be different in any way.
I wanted to fit in, I wanted tomake friends and all of those
(03:34):
things were very difficult forme when I was struggling with
things under the surface andwhen I was not in a school
system that was very diverse.
So I think that my relationshipwith my adoption story very much
, like I mentioned before,involved with me and, looking
(03:56):
back on it, there are so manythings that I realized I
struggled with, and stillstruggle with to this day, that
I never would have been able tounderstand to the degree that I
do now.
So it's very much a complicatedjourney, and I think that that
can be said for most adoptees,even those who, like myself,
(04:19):
grew up in a more even just likea more economically privileged
place.
Everything on paper went rightin my adoption story and there
are still so many things thatare really difficult and I still
deal with a lot of traumabecause of it.
And again, I truly feel thateverything went as well as it
could have.
So for adoptees who didn't havethat experience, I can only
(04:42):
imagine how difficult thisjourney can be.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, I would say compounding the issue and, in
the context of what you and Iare talking about as it relates
to those struggles, what thetheme that's coming to mind for
me is the fitting in and youridentity.
So how do you tackle identitytoday versus even maybe 10 years
(05:06):
ago, as it relates to thisjourney?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That's such a good question.
I feel very comfortable in myidentity nowadays as a Chinese
American adoptee actor, and soeven 10 years ago, I was just
beginning to explore what itmeant to be an adoptee.
I feel that in high school thatwas when I really started to
(05:32):
explore what it meant to beAsian American and specifically
Chinese American.
And then it was in college thatI truly started to integrate
myself into the adopteecommunity and connect with other
adoptees and just learn moreabout that side of myself.
And obviously I'm alwayslearning.
There will always be so much tolearn and I will always be on
(05:52):
this journey, but right now Ifeel very comfortable in my
identity and the different waysto explore it, the different
ways that aspects of my identityoverlap, all the discomfort
that comes with that and all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, I love that.
So well said and it just kindof brings home one of the points
you just made around you'realways going to be learning and
maybe morphine and overlapping.
That happens in life itself,aside from being part of an
adoptee community and in thisjourney.
(06:28):
So I really like the connectionof that for how you view
yourself and all of thosevarious labels that you went
through just a couple minutesago.
So well done and I think thatpeople can resonate with that.
It really resonates with mewhen I'm thinking equally of my
identity and how that haschanged in even a year.
(06:51):
Very well said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, so you mentioned a little bit about
kind of getting connected to theadoptee community and how has
that looked for you as part ofthis journey?
Where did it start and how haveyou kind of grown into the
community and started some ofyour advocation?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
When I was in college I entered the Pacific Miss
Asian American pageant and thatwas in 2015.
I was, I think, either 19 or 20at the time and I wanted to
enter that pageant under theplatform of intercultural
understanding, with an emphasison my transracial adoption story
(07:35):
.
And I was the first adoptee towin the Pacific Miss Asian
American pageant and because ofthat, felt that I was
representing my community andtruly wanted to immerse myself
in the needs of my community andget to know people and just
learn more about the kind ofrepresentation that we needed at
(07:59):
the time.
And so that was when I reallystarted to expand outreach and
just be interested in hearing asmany people's stories as I
could, speaking on as manypodcasts and writing as many
articles and just sharing mystory and hearing others in
return.
(08:20):
And at that time it was verymuch a listening and learning
and also expressing myself kindof time period.
I wasn't really analyzinganything or critically thinking
about a lot of these.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It was very much a just jump in the pool kind of
moment and all of that yeah itsounds like almost a feet first
adventure and then I'm going tostart determining can I swim, Do
I need to doggie paddle LikeI'm going for it?
That's kind of what I've justheard come from you as it
relates to making that step.
(08:53):
I think that's common acrossthe adoptee community and how we
start elevating our voices andconnecting.
No different than you know yourstory.
I just jumped into podcasting.
I needed an outlet and then yethere I am and I feel like that
it's the right thing for me fornow and maybe it'll change in
the future, but yeah, so keen tothat kind of trajectory for us.
(09:18):
Well, that tells me that you'vebeen pretty dedicated to
representation of all of yourlayers of identity and you are
very tapped into the narrative.
So I want to talk a little bitabout your perspective in terms
of the narrative and yourprofession and how you're
(09:39):
blending those two together andwhat's important for you.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's such a recent development.
I know I mentioned earlier aboutthe intersection of identities
and the discomfort that comeswith that, and I feel like this
past year is the most that myidentities as an actor and as an
adoptee have truly collided.
In all of the recent mediathat's come out in the way that
adoption and orphans are beingportrayed in the media now and
(10:08):
also in the past Some of themost beloved stories are orphan
stories or at least orphanorigin stories, and so I've
truly delved into a lot ofresearch this year and just try
to explore how those thingsintersect for me and also what
that means for my advocacy.
So I think that this year, ascertain movies have come out and
(10:32):
I've related like, learned moreabout them and analyzed them
very much as an actor, as astoryteller perspective, and
then also through the lens ofbeing an advocate and someone
who never wants the adopteecommunity to be represented
poorly or represented onedimensionally.
It can be.
(10:53):
Sometimes those things arecontradictory, because sometimes
what tells the best story iswhat is exploitative to the
adoptee community.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Right, it creates great conflict in the story, or
it creates a hero, or it createsa villain, and somewhere in
there the truth lies for all ofus, but then also for from my
perspective and I'm curious howyou're going to respond to this
the medium of entertainment hasreally blended the truth and the
(11:28):
fictional to such an extent.
I do believe there are manytopics adoption included that
people are incapable sometimesnot all people, but there are a
number of incapable ofseparating this might not be how
(11:48):
it really is to thefictionalization of that for a
storyline, they can't separatethe two.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Absolutely, and I speak about this in.
I wrote a Ted talk and was afinalist in in speaking at Ted X
Cornell this year and will notbe doing that, but wrote a talk
specifically for about this andabout this phenomenon, and so
one of the things that Imentioned in that research is
(12:15):
you're absolutely right thatthis is a communication like a
media psychology phenomenon.
There is a theory called.
There is a theory named afterthis, and this is the
cultivation theory, whichdiscusses how TV widely
cultivates moral values andshared beliefs across society
(12:36):
and how.
Especially, the danger in thisis that when a repeated
portrayal is shown in media,that is what people internalize
and what people believe aboutthe world, despite individual
differences across whatevergroup.
This stereotype is beingportrayed, and so it's true.
(12:57):
Yeah, I mean it's a theory, butit is informing people's
societal beliefs about adoptionand about, like you said,
whatever group the media isrepresenting.
And repeated portrayalsreinforced stereotypes, and that
dictates how people interactwith adoptees in real life, what
they believe we should think,how they believe we should act
(13:19):
all of those things.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, and it complicates it.
It complicates it for you and Iwho are living in the reality.
It complicates it when we're insearch and reunion, which I
know for you as a very differenttopic than you know for for
myself, and we'll talk, we'lltouch on that in a minute but if
I could relate what you've justsaid to even my own experience,
one of the very firstconversations I had with one of
(13:44):
my biological maternal aunts waswhat do you want?
And that comes from from.
You know the concept that anadoptee who seeks out their
biological family must wantsomething that isn't pure, right
, and so it just is afrustration on my part.
(14:05):
I am aggravated when I hear anadoptee who's trying to connect
to biology and information.
I'm aggravated at the, theconcept that their motives are
less than pure and they wantsomething above and beyond.
Hi, I'm so and so and I am partof your family.
It just unbelievably aggravatesme.
(14:28):
And so I want to circle back,though, because you do come from
a storyline relative to thistopic that does tug at hearts,
and I think it's exploited in ain a couple of different ways.
And so when you're in thesetypes of conversations and you
hear people such as myself, whohas had that opportunity to
(14:51):
connect biologically.
How does that translate for you?
What is the sensitivity of that, you know in this type of a
forum bed.
Then stretch that out to otherswho will place narrative on you
such as oh, you're so lucky, orwhatever it is that you've
you've faced in your ownexperience.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Absolutely.
It definitely varies dependingon how I'm feeling about the
idea of my birth parents andright now I'm in a fairly
comfortable place when Ireferenced this a lot.
But when I first saw thedocumentary One Child Nation,
which was about the one childpolicy, and interviewed people
(15:36):
who had relinquished theirchildren, people who lived
through the propaganda and thepopulation issues that led to
that policy and allowed it to becarried out, that was really
really tough and I went througha lot of very tumultuous
feelings about a potentialreunion and that was the most I
(15:57):
had ever contemplated.
I don't know if I would everwant that.
Obviously, my whole life I havenot even known how possible
things are.
It's very expensive.
That's another way in whichportrayals in media have
affected our lives.
But birth searches and reunionare depicted as such an
(16:19):
adventure, as such a somethingthat will give you closure right
away and once you're reunitedthe story ends.
And that's not true and I'm sureyou can speak to that that once
you're reunited, that's onlythe beginning of something very
new and different andcomplicated that never gets
discussed and is unchartedterritory.
(16:39):
But I mean, at least for myself, I think that the sensitivity
around it definitely depends onhow I'm feeling about them and I
think that that is going to betrue for the rest of my life.
And as far as expanding thatand out to conversations outside
of this safe adoptee space, Inever usually want to delve too
(17:05):
deeply into how I feel aboutreunion or my own birth parents
or anything regarding my storyin that way.
That's pretty personal, I feel,and I feel like I'm usually
very much an open book.
But because my feelings towardsthat can be so tumultuous and
vary at any given point in time,that's just something that I
(17:26):
don't usually feel comfortablespeaking with non-adopties about
, because it's something thatwithin the adoptee community,
just something that otheradoptees can inherently
understand the difficulty in ourfeelings around that.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I would agree.
I would agree with that 100%and I truly believe, kira, that
those are healthy boundaries foradoptees.
And at the point in which weunderstand or we can identify
that the non-adoptee and this isnot criticism, this is just
(18:05):
saying we identify the inabilityto actually really get there
and understand, that is a pain.
That's not a flippantconversation.
It is a pain If you can see itin someone's face when you're
talking to them and you knowthat there's their body language
, how they're reacting to yourwords are not aligning with even
(18:28):
a small dose of empathy.
It's a boundary To me.
The walls just need to go upbecause we're not going to have
a conversation that I'm going tofeel comfortable walking away
from.
I'm going to go and go sitsomewhere and now I'm going to
be torn apart with my emotionsbecause of it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Absolutely, and to the people in my support systems
credit.
I truly believe that theyempathize as much as they
possibly can for people who havenot lived that experience and I
am always treated with so muchcompassion and I feel like I
have some truly amazing peoplein my life.
(19:09):
But, like you said, there arecertain boundaries that are
protective, and I mean not thatall of my friends or my family
are constantly bringing subjectslike this up, but sometimes
conversation can lead into aterritory of oh well, I can't
really relate to that becauseI'm adopted or I have a very
(19:30):
different experience with thisbecause I'm adopted.
I mean, a scenario that comesto mind is sometimes people I
know will just ask very specific, like party questions or
something, and someone asked thequestion if you could go back
and relive your entire life.
But with the consciousness youhave now, like as an adult, you
(19:53):
get to experience your entirelife over again.
Would you do that?
And I made the conversationvery dramatic because I was like
absolutely not, I do not needto experience my relinquishment
in full 24k memory and I justlike think about that scenario a
lot and obviously I laugh andtry to make it joking, but I'm
(20:17):
like, oh my goodness, no, Iwouldn't.
And now I'm thinking about that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, as you were going through that with me, I
was going no, I mean, we otherscan't see our body language, but
my whole body was like no, I'mnot going to have that
conversation.
No, and I'm probably not goingto have that conversation.
And two, are you kidding me?
I mean, what do you want me tosay?
I want something entirelydifferent.
Well, that's already happenedfor me and I don't mean to be
(20:45):
flippant about the way I'mtalking about it, but you know,
let's put that card on the tableyou are talking about, and to
someone whose life decision wasmade for them, number one, that
that one little piece that wasalready done, that course was
charted.
I didn't have the same thingthat you had, I didn't stay home
with my parents, I wasn'tattached to my biology.
(21:07):
That ship is sailed in essence,and so, yeah, wow, I don't know
how I would handle that in aparty situation.
So, you know, thumbs up to youfor however you handled it and
having the ice suspect, quite abit of grace in answering those
types of ice breakerconversation points in a more
(21:28):
global setting.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Thank you, I mean, I last thing I'll say about that
is I think that is a little bitof a silly question, because
even if you're not Adopted, Ican't imagine most people have
all good memories of their lives, and so I'm sure everyone has
things that they would not wishto relive.
So I, unless you had a really,really good life and all of the
(21:53):
good outweighs the bad, so muchso that you would want to relive
that, I think that that's kindof a a trick question.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I agree.
Well, we just tackled somethingaround challenges that Adoptes
regardless of you know, ourstorylines and our experience
all have in common, and so couldyou tell me what are a couple
of the other more prominentchallenges as Part of your
journey that you feel you'veeither overcome or you're still
(22:22):
working to overcome that wehaven't talked about yet?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Sure, one of the main ones that I've only spoken
about briefly before is theseparation anxiety that is very
much instilled in me, and it was, has been something I've
struggled with my whole life andas an adult finally was like I
don't think this is normal and Ineed to get a handle on this.
(22:46):
I don't know where this comesfrom.
I don't know how to deal withit in a healthy way Other than
having panic attack.
I mean this isn't healthy.
But I would just have panicattacks come down from it and be
like, oh okay, I guess I feelbetter now that that's over,
just did not know how to handlethem and so finally went to
therapy for it and my therapistlinked it back to my adoption
(23:10):
and that was just something Ihad never even thought of before
.
I had never been educated onrelinquishment trauma.
I had no idea that that couldhave stemmed from Moments that
weren't even in my consciousmemory.
It was just trauma that my bodyremembered that made me feel so
much better to know where itcame from.
(23:30):
Obviously, just Having thatknowledge didn't solve the
problem, but that was somethingI had never even considered and
just really blew my mind at thetime, and Now I am still in
therapy and still work throughit.
I'm in a much healthier placethan I was before, but it was
something that I don't think myparents would have ever thought
(23:52):
of either, and when I told themabout it, they were like how is
that possible?
I mean, just like I don'tremember being abandoned by the
side of a bridge, I don't haveany conscious memory of my
biological family how is itpossible that something could
have Lived inside of me for solong and affected my adult life
(24:15):
and my relationships today, andso that's something that I've
had to work through.
That's something that theydon't always understand and
isn't always a comfortableconversation to have, and so I
have to have boundaries aroundConversations like that to
protect my own piece and thework that I'm trying to do and
the healing that I'm trying todo, and Trying not to reopen old
(24:38):
wounds or to be invalidated ina way that isn't even malicious,
but for the sake of comfort forother people, and so that's
definitely something that I havebeen learning about and working
through.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
In regards to my adoptee journey, yeah, you
brought up a great topic, whichis that pre-verbal trauma and
understanding that, and I'm notsure there's enough scientific
information, medical researchinformation, psychological
research, information on that.
That boils up to the topthrough this entire concept of
(25:16):
adoption worldwide.
And so even for myself, Ididn't really understand what
pre-verbal trauma was until itwas brought to my attention,
similarly to what you're justtalking about as well.
And and what does that, or howdoes that manifest into the
human and some of the things weexperience?
(25:37):
So anxiety is Absolutely one ofthe top markers for the
manifestation of Pre-verbaltrauma and it stems from that
abandonment mentality.
I talk about it in the contextof a triangle.
You know we always talk aboutthe triad or the constellation
(25:57):
and we use a lot of, you know,positive affirmation words.
But in the last year, throughmy own study of who I am and
identity and behaviors and thosepieces of that puzzle, I've
come to a triangle that's alittle bit different.
That says if my self-worth isat the top, how I view myself,
(26:17):
how comfortable I am with myself.
It's extremely hard to put thatat the top of the of the
triangle or the pyramid when thetwo opposing corners at the
bottom are seated in.
You are relinquished and chosen.
They just don't matter, right,unless unless you're doing
something really Interestingwith that triangle.
(26:38):
They really don't match up atthe top to say self-worth.
And yeah, I love that youbrought that up, because I do
think we should talk aboutpre-verbal trauma and some of
the symptoms in our, our lifejourney that manifest, and I I
can relate to the anxiety andthe abandonment and I have said
(27:02):
this before.
I don't know if it Resonates atall with you, but there are
many, many, many days in my lifewhere I have woken in the
morning and Wondered am I goingto be loved today?
Now, that doesn't mean peopledon't love me.
I know I'm loved, that right.
I know I'm loved, but that'show I wake up and start a day.
That's on the backside of myfeet, not on the front side of
(27:24):
this Right.
That's not the positive.
That's like, oh goodness,what's gonna happen to me today?
I'm already.
I'm already self-deprecating inthat.
In that portion of aconversation I Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That really resonates with me and, at least for
myself, that leads to thoughtsof what's wrong with me, and
when I would have panic attacksor when I would be deeply
experiencing separation anxiety,I would just feel so isolated
(27:55):
and so confused because,logically, I would know that
there's like nothing to beanxious about or that I
shouldn't be worried about this.
There's no reason to feel thisway, was the narrative that I
would tell myself in an attemptto try to make myself feel
better.
And it's what I had been toldgrowing up and really
(28:19):
internalized that and didn'trealize the harm that that was
causing me.
That to tell myself there's noreason to feel this way.
Well, that led to thoughts ofwell then, what's wrong with me?
Then something's wrong with methen.
Because if there's no reason tofeel this way, why do I still
feel it?
And so I had to reparent myselfand reframe that to actually
(28:40):
there is a reason you feel thisway and it's a very valid reason
.
It is something that, eventhough you can't viscerally
remember it, your body remembersit, and to have that knowledge
was so healing again, it wasjust such a first rudimentary
step, but it really helpedcombat those thoughts of
(29:03):
something's wrong with me andbecause of that I am unlovable,
and just reigniting those fearsand all of that spiraling Well,
and then I'm sure if we couldprobably find a thread of
connection here too.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I know that if I look in retrospect into other
relationships I've had, I'll goto my romantic ones.
It was a very strongundercurrent of whether or not
it was going to be a successfulrelationship, and I would put on
the table for myself that,because that is how I've
(29:39):
approached, or had approached, agood portion of my life.
How can someone who's with a methat is constantly waking up
and trying to justify that Iexist in my mind, I'm abandoned,
I'm worthy and am I going to beloved today?
How does someone next to me,how do they handle that?
(30:04):
Because they're paying in somerespects of this conversation.
They are paying for that painand transference of how I'm
viewing them, not how they'reactually showing up.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Wow, so well said Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Crazy, isn't it Crazy ?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Truly and I am glad that we can find these threads
of connection because I thinkthat moments like this or
comparable moments are so truefor so many adoptees and because
those feelings are so isolatingand those thoughts can be so
overpowering and at a certainpoint I imagine for others, but
(30:45):
definitely for me, that thosethoughts are so overpowering
that that's just what I wouldbelieve about myself and that
was so harmful to the way that Iinteracted with the world and
for my own mental health that Ijust hope that other adoptees
who may be listening or who areexploring those or having those
feelings for themselves don'tfeel so alone because, like you
(31:07):
said, it is a thread ofconnection for adoptees and just
like we very much understandthat experience with each other.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, I would agree, I want to go back to the
beginning of this conversation,where you were talking about
some of your early injectionsinto the adoptee community, and
I think maybe this would be agood space to transition the
conversation a little bit into.
You know, what does thatadvocacy really look like for
(31:36):
you, what's your why and whatare you really looking for in
terms of the advocacy as itrelates to maybe change?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That's such a good question.
Right now, my advocacy is verymuch focused on adoption
education and peopleunderstanding the adoptee
experience and ensuring that ournarrative is shared as much, if
not more, than, adoptiveparents narratives and not that
(32:09):
those narratives aren'timportant, not that those
stories aren't important butthey are often deemed as so
important to society thatadoptees' voices are smothered
and adoptee experiences thatdon't line up with the
positivity of adopted parentsare silenced for the sake of
(32:31):
people's comfort, for the sakeof toxic positivity and for the
pure image people have ofadoption as a purely positive
thing, as a child without afamily gaining a family and how
isn't that such a happy endingand it is so much more
complicated than that.
(32:51):
I mean, I always say but thechild that gained a family also
lost a family, and I feel likethat duality is just not
explored in these conversationsabout adoption, and so my goal
right now is very much to justeducate people about the adoptee
experience, open people's minds, help people think about things
(33:14):
in a way that they might nothave before and really focus on
that education.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Kara, I really like where you're going with that
conversation relative to theelevation of our voices and
helping bridge some gaps, and Ihave found in some of the
conversations I'm having aroundthis entire topic that you're
right, there's such an elementof narrative from the adoptee
(33:41):
parent perspective that may havebeen overshadowing a grander
experience.
And so by us speaking up notnecessarily just speaking out,
but speaking up, which is verydifferent to me than the out
piece right, it helps us try tonot only say, hey, I want you to
(34:02):
hear my voice, but I want toconnect to your voice as well,
because even in thatconversation with an adoptee
parent or a birth parent, thereare threads of connection
equally.
And so when we only approach itfrom our own conversation, I
wonder if we then slightourselves to some extent.
(34:26):
And so, you know, I love theway that you talked about
getting our voice out.
There.
I say we're just finallyshowing up, and now people are
connecting more of those dotsthat say, well, it wasn't Rosie
for that adopted parent.
Now we're confirming it wasn'tRosie for that adoptee and we
(34:49):
are also confirming it's notbeen Rosie for the biological
parents that knew.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Absolutely, and I love what you said about not
just speaking up and out or Ijust you worded it so much more
eloquently than I'm able torepeat, but I just, I really
truly.
That really resonates with meand I think that's so important.
I think that something that inmy work that I try to do is to
(35:17):
meet people where they're at.
If they're willing to learn,then to be able to share and
hopefully expand their worldview, not in a way that's
comfortable for them, but in away that's accessible for them.
And a lot of times, most times,all times, change is
uncomfortable, and reshapingyour world view on something
(35:38):
that is as deeply ingrained inour society as the narrative of
adoption as a purely loving andpositive experience, can be very
jarring for people, and peopleare so committed to that
ideology that even questioningthat is perceived as a threat,
and so that is the hurdle that Ifeel like I work to overcome,
(36:03):
and right now my work is verycentered on adoptees and
entertainment.
Like I mentioned, I had writtenthat talk and I focused on that
kind of research.
But my hope for that and tospeak to your question about how
I see this advocacy inaffecting change, my hope, by
exploring the portrayal oforphans and adoptees in media is
(36:26):
to gauge people's interest andor to pique people's interest
and to address these storiesthat everyone has seen, everyone
has experienced.
They are so beloved, they arepeople's childhood.
But to pique interest in howadoptees are portrayed and
hopefully to introduce them toadoption reform and the ways in
(36:51):
which that adoptees want tochange the system, the ways in
which that we believe ourexperiences could have been
better growing up and bettermoving forward, but to hopefully
get people interested and havethat be an accessible step to
people learning more aboutadoption reform and the changes
that we need to make on alegislative level, on a social
(37:15):
level, all of these differentchanges and how society
perceives adoption.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, I equate it to historical movements in, you
know, even the North Americansociety, not just the global.
But we could, we can, patternthis type of conversation along
the lines of several of thosetypes of civil rights movements,
basic human rights movements,very similar context, and I
(37:44):
think it's fantastic when we'reusing the various platforms and
what burns inside of us to helpkind of move that along in any
way that we can.
I think for myself, I've gottento the point of the
conversation where I don't thinkthere's going to be the type of
reform I want in my lifetime.
I'm okay with that, I'mactually okay with that.
(38:07):
I wish it would go faster, butI'm also enough of a realist to
know that it's it's not going tobe, that you know, it's not
going to be fully reformed.
So maybe if we start with somebasics and those are to your
point, maybe two of all of thoseitems one, the legal reform.
Like, let's go ahead and makesure that there isn't this
(38:30):
concept of closed adoption and Imean it in the in the light of
changing legal documents thatchange my identity or hide who I
am, from me when I'm older andI can, you know, take on that
information and digest it andmove forward.
(38:50):
For myself, I would like to haveseen less, I guess less
importance placed on the birthmother's rights over my rights.
I just nothing in my brain isever going to let me get to a
point where I think that wasokay.
I just right, I've tried, butit's, we're all humans, and so
how did that person's humanrights, you know, supersede mine
(39:13):
, and so I think that's a goodplace to be.
And then the other one is thenarrative.
And then you know it will growand it will always have
different facets to overcomethrough each of the you know
stages of some type of reform.
Sometimes it'll go fast andsometimes it'll go slow.
I think right now we have somemomentum and I don't want us to
(39:35):
lose that.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh, I completely agree.
I think that, with all of theconversations about adoption in
pop culture and with MichaelOher's recent lawsuits
surrounding the blind side, thatthis is a very relevant topic
and I think that people arepeople in our community are
raising their voices in ameaningful way and affecting
(40:02):
change in the narrative and whatpeople are hearing, especially
in the generations to come.
I think that I have a lot ofhope for moving the needle
forward.
Like you said, I don't thinkit's moving fast enough for my
taste, but these things rarelydo, so I'm very hopeful that the
(40:24):
work that you do, the work thatI'm doing, that will push the
needle forward to set aprecedent for the change that we
want to see.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, as we're starting toclose out our conversation today
, I just want to put out thereIs there anything that we
haven't talked about yet thatyou really want to make sure
hits this airwave?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I appreciate you asking that I have so deeply
enjoyed our conversation andspeaking to you.
You're so eloquent about justnot only your feelings on
adoption but your understandingof the community and
understanding of what ourcommunity needs, and so I just
really appreciate that andappreciate this conversation
(41:10):
that we've been able to have.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Oh, thank you so much .
Well, I know it's been a joy,and one of the things I want to
close with is you are alwayswelcome here.
So the next time you have anitem come up or you're going to
get that TED Talk approved and Iknow we've talked previously
you really are doing a lot ofadvocation.
(41:32):
That is harder to see becauseit's in that entertainment world
which creates a little bit of aseparation from what I would
say normal Lisa and normal Kira,right, and so I just want to
praise you for that, and it hasbeen a joy to have you on the
show.
You are welcome here anytime.
(41:53):
It's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Thank you.
That means the world to me andit's so wonderful to speak to
you.
I'm so glad we connected and Ijust hope we continue to have
these conversations.
I think that they're importantand they're really fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
People are.
People in our community areraising their voices in a
meaningful way and affectingchange in the narrative and what
people are hearing, especiallyin the generations to come.
I think that I have a lot ofhope for moving the needle
forward, like you said.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of the adoption life,identity search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, kira.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, it's an honor to have you.
We always like to have spacefor our adoptee community and I
like to just really kick it offwith a little bit of an
introduction from you about you.
Would you mind sharing with usyou know kind of who you are and
give us as much detail as youwant about your adoption journey
?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Sure.
I was adopted from Zhongshan,china, when I was about 10
months old.
I had been found by the side ofa bridge when I was four months
old and then brought to thewelfare center, brought to the
hospital and then brought to theorphanage where my parents
would eventually meet me.
I grew up in the DC area.
(01:34):
I'm a transracial adoptee, somy parents are white and I have
a younger brother adopted fromKorea, and a younger sister who
is my parents biological child.
So, like I said, I grew up inthe DC area and now I live in
Los Angeles where I work as afull-time actor.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Well, I love parts of your story, and parts of your
story are also going to beheartbreaking, and I think that
when I first met you, kira,after we hung up, was each of us
have connection and we're goingto, we're going to divulge.
You and I are generations apartin age, and yet we still
connected very strongly in ourfirst meeting, and so I would
(02:16):
like to ask you a few morequestions about your adoption
journey as you were growing up.
What did that mean to you to beadopted in all the context that
you just laid out for ourlisteners?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, so growing up, I think my parents did a good job
of introducing my adoptionstory to me early in a very
child-friendly way so that itwas able to mature as I did,
which I'm very grateful to themfor.
I think that they did the bestthat they had with the resources
that were available to them atthat time.
(02:50):
I think that I had as healthy arelationship with my adoption
story as I could have and stillthere were things that I felt
could have been done better andI felt that there were things
that were just lacking andthings that I felt missing
support that I felt was missing.
Again, despite also having atrans-racially adopted brother
(03:13):
as well to share that experiencewith.
I think that growing up, I justso wanted to be like all the
other kids and being adopted andbeing in a multiracial family
made me different and I didn'twant to be different in any way.
I wanted to fit in, I wanted tomake friends and all of those
(03:34):
things were very difficult forme when I was struggling with
things under the surface andwhen I was not in a school
system that was very diverse.
So I think that my relationshipwith my adoption story very much
, like I mentioned before,involved with me and, looking
(03:56):
back on it, there are so manythings that I realized I
struggled with, and stillstruggle with to this day, that
I never would have been able tounderstand to the degree that I
do now.
So it's very much a complicatedjourney, and I think that that
can be said for most adoptees,even those who, like myself,
(04:19):
grew up in a more even just likea more economically privileged
place.
Everything on paper went rightin my adoption story and there
are still so many things thatare really difficult and I still
deal with a lot of traumabecause of it.
And again, I truly feel thateverything went as well as it
could have.
So for adoptees who didn't havethat experience, I can only
(04:42):
imagine how difficult thisjourney can be.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, I would say compounding the issue and, in
the context of what you and Iare talking about as it relates
to those struggles, what thetheme that's coming to mind for
me is the fitting in and youridentity.
So how do you tackle identitytoday versus even maybe 10 years
(05:06):
ago, as it relates to thisjourney?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That's such a good question.
I feel very comfortable in myidentity nowadays as a Chinese
American adoptee actor, and soeven 10 years ago, I was just
beginning to explore what itmeant to be an adoptee.
I feel that in high school thatwas when I really started to
(05:32):
explore what it meant to beAsian American and specifically
Chinese American.
And then it was in college thatI truly started to integrate
myself into the adopteecommunity and connect with other
adoptees and just learn moreabout that side of myself.
And obviously I'm alwayslearning.
There will always be so much tolearn and I will always be on
(05:52):
this journey, but right now Ifeel very comfortable in my
identity and the different waysto explore it, the different
ways that aspects of my identityoverlap, all the discomfort
that comes with that and all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, I love that.
So well said and it just kindof brings home one of the points
you just made around you'realways going to be learning and
maybe morphine and overlapping.
That happens in life itself,aside from being part of an
adoptee community and in thisjourney.
(06:28):
So I really like the connectionof that for how you view
yourself and all of thosevarious labels that you went
through just a couple minutesago.
So well done and I think thatpeople can resonate with that.
It really resonates with mewhen I'm thinking equally of my
identity and how that haschanged in even a year.
(06:51):
Very well said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, so you mentioned a little bit about
kind of getting connected to theadoptee community and how has
that looked for you as part ofthis journey?
Where did it start and how haveyou kind of grown into the
community and started some ofyour advocation?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
When I was in college I entered the Pacific Miss
Asian American pageant and thatwas in 2015.
I was, I think, either 19 or 20at the time and I wanted to
enter that pageant under theplatform of intercultural
understanding, with an emphasison my transracial adoption story
(07:35):
.
And I was the first adoptee towin the Pacific Miss Asian
American pageant and because ofthat, felt that I was
representing my community andtruly wanted to immerse myself
in the needs of my community andget to know people and just
learn more about the kind ofrepresentation that we needed at
(07:59):
the time.
And so that was when I reallystarted to expand outreach and
just be interested in hearing asmany people's stories as I
could, speaking on as manypodcasts and writing as many
articles and just sharing mystory and hearing others in
return.
(08:20):
And at that time it was verymuch a listening and learning
and also expressing myself kindof time period.
I wasn't really analyzinganything or critically thinking
about a lot of these.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It was very much a just jump in the pool kind of
moment and all of that yeah itsounds like almost a feet first
adventure and then I'm going tostart determining can I swim, Do
I need to doggie paddle LikeI'm going for it?
That's kind of what I've justheard come from you as it
relates to making that step.
(08:53):
I think that's common acrossthe adoptee community and how we
start elevating our voices andconnecting.
No different than you know yourstory.
I just jumped into podcasting.
I needed an outlet and then yethere I am and I feel like that
it's the right thing for me fornow and maybe it'll change in
the future, but yeah, so keen tothat kind of trajectory for us.
(09:18):
Well, that tells me that you'vebeen pretty dedicated to
representation of all of yourlayers of identity and you are
very tapped into the narrative.
So I want to talk a little bitabout your perspective in terms
of the narrative and yourprofession and how you're
(09:39):
blending those two together andwhat's important for you.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's such a recent development.
I know I mentioned earlier aboutthe intersection of identities
and the discomfort that comeswith that, and I feel like this
past year is the most that myidentities as an actor and as an
adoptee have truly collided.
In all of the recent mediathat's come out in the way that
adoption and orphans are beingportrayed in the media now and
(10:08):
also in the past Some of themost beloved stories are orphan
stories or at least orphanorigin stories, and so I've
truly delved into a lot ofresearch this year and just try
to explore how those thingsintersect for me and also what
that means for my advocacy.
So I think that this year, ascertain movies have come out and
(10:32):
I've related like, learned moreabout them and analyzed them
very much as an actor, as astoryteller perspective, and
then also through the lens ofbeing an advocate and someone
who never wants the adopteecommunity to be represented
poorly or represented onedimensionally.
It can be.
(10:53):
Sometimes those things arecontradictory, because sometimes
what tells the best story iswhat is exploitative to the
adoptee community.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Right, it creates great conflict in the story, or
it creates a hero, or it createsa villain, and somewhere in
there the truth lies for all ofus, but then also for from my
perspective and I'm curious howyou're going to respond to this
the medium of entertainment hasreally blended the truth and the
(11:28):
fictional to such an extent.
I do believe there are manytopics adoption included that
people are incapable sometimesnot all people, but there are a
number of incapable ofseparating this might not be how
(11:48):
it really is to thefictionalization of that for a
storyline, they can't separatethe two.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Absolutely, and I speak about this in.
I wrote a Ted talk and was afinalist in in speaking at Ted X
Cornell this year and will notbe doing that, but wrote a talk
specifically for about this andabout this phenomenon, and so
one of the things that Imentioned in that research is
(12:15):
you're absolutely right thatthis is a communication like a
media psychology phenomenon.
There is a theory called.
There is a theory named afterthis, and this is the
cultivation theory, whichdiscusses how TV widely
cultivates moral values andshared beliefs across society
(12:36):
and how.
Especially, the danger in thisis that when a repeated
portrayal is shown in media,that is what people internalize
and what people believe aboutthe world, despite individual
differences across whatevergroup.
This stereotype is beingportrayed, and so it's true.
(12:57):
Yeah, I mean it's a theory, butit is informing people's
societal beliefs about adoptionand about, like you said,
whatever group the media isrepresenting.
And repeated portrayalsreinforced stereotypes, and that
dictates how people interactwith adoptees in real life, what
they believe we should think,how they believe we should act
(13:19):
all of those things.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, and it complicates it.
It complicates it for you and Iwho are living in the reality.
It complicates it when we're insearch and reunion, which I
know for you as a very differenttopic than you know for for
myself, and we'll talk, we'lltouch on that in a minute but if
I could relate what you've justsaid to even my own experience,
one of the very firstconversations I had with one of
(13:44):
my biological maternal aunts waswhat do you want?
And that comes from from.
You know the concept that anadoptee who seeks out their
biological family must wantsomething that isn't pure, right
, and so it just is afrustration on my part.
(14:05):
I am aggravated when I hear anadoptee who's trying to connect
to biology and information.
I'm aggravated at the, theconcept that their motives are
less than pure and they wantsomething above and beyond.
Hi, I'm so and so and I am partof your family.
It just unbelievably aggravatesme.
(14:28):
And so I want to circle back,though, because you do come from
a storyline relative to thistopic that does tug at hearts,
and I think it's exploited in ain a couple of different ways.
And so when you're in thesetypes of conversations and you
hear people such as myself, whohas had that opportunity to
(14:51):
connect biologically.
How does that translate for you?
What is the sensitivity of that, you know in this type of a
forum bed.
Then stretch that out to otherswho will place narrative on you
such as oh, you're so lucky, orwhatever it is that you've
you've faced in your ownexperience.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Absolutely.
It definitely varies dependingon how I'm feeling about the
idea of my birth parents andright now I'm in a fairly
comfortable place when Ireferenced this a lot.
But when I first saw thedocumentary One Child Nation,
which was about the one childpolicy, and interviewed people
(15:36):
who had relinquished theirchildren, people who lived
through the propaganda and thepopulation issues that led to
that policy and allowed it to becarried out, that was really
really tough and I went througha lot of very tumultuous
feelings about a potentialreunion and that was the most I
(15:57):
had ever contemplated.
I don't know if I would everwant that.
Obviously, my whole life I havenot even known how possible
things are.
It's very expensive.
That's another way in whichportrayals in media have
affected our lives.
But birth searches and reunionare depicted as such an
(16:19):
adventure, as such a somethingthat will give you closure right
away and once you're reunitedthe story ends.
And that's not true and I'm sureyou can speak to that that once
you're reunited, that's onlythe beginning of something very
new and different andcomplicated that never gets
discussed and is unchartedterritory.
(16:39):
But I mean, at least for myself, I think that the sensitivity
around it definitely depends onhow I'm feeling about them and I
think that that is going to betrue for the rest of my life.
And as far as expanding thatand out to conversations outside
of this safe adoptee space, Inever usually want to delve too
(17:05):
deeply into how I feel aboutreunion or my own birth parents
or anything regarding my storyin that way.
That's pretty personal, I feel,and I feel like I'm usually
very much an open book.
But because my feelings towardsthat can be so tumultuous and
vary at any given point in time,that's just something that I
(17:26):
don't usually feel comfortablespeaking with non-adopties about
, because it's something thatwithin the adoptee community,
just something that otheradoptees can inherently
understand the difficulty in ourfeelings around that.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I would agree.
I would agree with that 100%and I truly believe, kira, that
those are healthy boundaries foradoptees.
And at the point in which weunderstand or we can identify
that the non-adoptee and this isnot criticism, this is just
(18:05):
saying we identify the inabilityto actually really get there
and understand, that is a pain.
That's not a flippantconversation.
It is a pain If you can see itin someone's face when you're
talking to them and you knowthat there's their body language
, how they're reacting to yourwords are not aligning with even
(18:28):
a small dose of empathy.
It's a boundary To me.
The walls just need to go upbecause we're not going to have
a conversation that I'm going tofeel comfortable walking away
from.
I'm going to go and go sitsomewhere and now I'm going to
be torn apart with my emotionsbecause of it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Absolutely, and to the people in my support systems
credit.
I truly believe that theyempathize as much as they
possibly can for people who havenot lived that experience and I
am always treated with so muchcompassion and I feel like I
have some truly amazing peoplein my life.
(19:09):
But, like you said, there arecertain boundaries that are
protective, and I mean not thatall of my friends or my family
are constantly bringing subjectslike this up, but sometimes
conversation can lead into aterritory of oh well, I can't
really relate to that becauseI'm adopted or I have a very
(19:30):
different experience with thisbecause I'm adopted.
I mean, a scenario that comesto mind is sometimes people I
know will just ask very specific, like party questions or
something, and someone asked thequestion if you could go back
and relive your entire life.
But with the consciousness youhave now, like as an adult, you
(19:53):
get to experience your entirelife over again.
Would you do that?
And I made the conversationvery dramatic because I was like
absolutely not, I do not needto experience my relinquishment
in full 24k memory and I justlike think about that scenario a
lot and obviously I laugh andtry to make it joking, but I'm
(20:17):
like, oh my goodness, no, Iwouldn't.
And now I'm thinking about that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, as you were going through that with me, I
was going no, I mean, we otherscan't see our body language, but
my whole body was like no, I'mnot going to have that
conversation.
No, and I'm probably not goingto have that conversation.
And two, are you kidding me?
I mean, what do you want me tosay?
I want something entirelydifferent.
Well, that's already happenedfor me and I don't mean to be
(20:45):
flippant about the way I'mtalking about it, but you know,
let's put that card on the tableyou are talking about, and to
someone whose life decision wasmade for them, number one, that
that one little piece that wasalready done, that course was
charted.
I didn't have the same thingthat you had, I didn't stay home
with my parents, I wasn'tattached to my biology.
(21:07):
That ship is sailed in essence,and so, yeah, wow, I don't know
how I would handle that in aparty situation.
So, you know, thumbs up to youfor however you handled it and
having the ice suspect, quite abit of grace in answering those
types of ice breakerconversation points in a more
(21:28):
global setting.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Thank you, I mean, I last thing I'll say about that
is I think that is a little bitof a silly question, because
even if you're not Adopted, Ican't imagine most people have
all good memories of their lives, and so I'm sure everyone has
things that they would not wishto relive.
So I, unless you had a really,really good life and all of the
(21:53):
good outweighs the bad, so muchso that you would want to relive
that, I think that that's kindof a a trick question.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I agree.
Well, we just tackled somethingaround challenges that Adoptes
regardless of you know, ourstorylines and our experience
all have in common, and so couldyou tell me what are a couple
of the other more prominentchallenges as Part of your
journey that you feel you'veeither overcome or you're still
(22:22):
working to overcome that wehaven't talked about yet?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Sure, one of the main ones that I've only spoken
about briefly before is theseparation anxiety that is very
much instilled in me, and it was, has been something I've
struggled with my whole life andas an adult finally was like I
don't think this is normal and Ineed to get a handle on this.
(22:46):
I don't know where this comesfrom.
I don't know how to deal withit in a healthy way Other than
having panic attack.
I mean this isn't healthy.
But I would just have panicattacks come down from it and be
like, oh okay, I guess I feelbetter now that that's over,
just did not know how to handlethem and so finally went to
therapy for it and my therapistlinked it back to my adoption
(23:10):
and that was just something Ihad never even thought of before
.
I had never been educated onrelinquishment trauma.
I had no idea that that couldhave stemmed from Moments that
weren't even in my consciousmemory.
It was just trauma that my bodyremembered that made me feel so
much better to know where itcame from.
(23:30):
Obviously, just Having thatknowledge didn't solve the
problem, but that was somethingI had never even considered and
just really blew my mind at thetime, and Now I am still in
therapy and still work throughit.
I'm in a much healthier placethan I was before, but it was
something that I don't think myparents would have ever thought
(23:52):
of either, and when I told themabout it, they were like how is
that possible?
I mean, just like I don'tremember being abandoned by the
side of a bridge, I don't haveany conscious memory of my
biological family how is itpossible that something could
have Lived inside of me for solong and affected my adult life
(24:15):
and my relationships today, andso that's something that I've
had to work through.
That's something that theydon't always understand and
isn't always a comfortableconversation to have, and so I
have to have boundaries aroundConversations like that to
protect my own piece and thework that I'm trying to do and
the healing that I'm trying todo, and Trying not to reopen old
(24:38):
wounds or to be invalidated ina way that isn't even malicious,
but for the sake of comfort forother people, and so that's
definitely something that I havebeen learning about and working
through.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
In regards to my adoptee journey, yeah, you
brought up a great topic, whichis that pre-verbal trauma and
understanding that, and I'm notsure there's enough scientific
information, medical researchinformation, psychological
research, information on that.
That boils up to the topthrough this entire concept of
(25:16):
adoption worldwide.
And so even for myself, Ididn't really understand what
pre-verbal trauma was until itwas brought to my attention,
similarly to what you're justtalking about as well.
And and what does that, or howdoes that manifest into the
human and some of the things weexperience?
(25:37):
So anxiety is Absolutely one ofthe top markers for the
manifestation of Pre-verbaltrauma and it stems from that
abandonment mentality.
I talk about it in the contextof a triangle.
You know we always talk aboutthe triad or the constellation
(25:57):
and we use a lot of, you know,positive affirmation words.
But in the last year, throughmy own study of who I am and
identity and behaviors and thosepieces of that puzzle, I've
come to a triangle that's alittle bit different.
That says if my self-worth isat the top, how I view myself,
(26:17):
how comfortable I am with myself.
It's extremely hard to put thatat the top of the of the
triangle or the pyramid when thetwo opposing corners at the
bottom are seated in.
You are relinquished and chosen.
They just don't matter, right,unless unless you're doing
something really Interestingwith that triangle.
(26:38):
They really don't match up atthe top to say self-worth.
And yeah, I love that youbrought that up, because I do
think we should talk aboutpre-verbal trauma and some of
the symptoms in our, our lifejourney that manifest, and I I
can relate to the anxiety andthe abandonment and I have said
(27:02):
this before.
I don't know if it Resonates atall with you, but there are
many, many, many days in my lifewhere I have woken in the
morning and Wondered am I goingto be loved today?
Now, that doesn't mean peopledon't love me.
I know I'm loved, that right.
I know I'm loved, but that'show I wake up and start a day.
That's on the backside of myfeet, not on the front side of
(27:24):
this Right.
That's not the positive.
That's like, oh goodness,what's gonna happen to me today?
I'm already.
I'm already self-deprecating inthat.
In that portion of aconversation I Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That really resonates with me and, at least for
myself, that leads to thoughtsof what's wrong with me, and
when I would have panic attacksor when I would be deeply
experiencing separation anxiety,I would just feel so isolated
(27:55):
and so confused because,logically, I would know that
there's like nothing to beanxious about or that I
shouldn't be worried about this.
There's no reason to feel thisway, was the narrative that I
would tell myself in an attemptto try to make myself feel
better.
And it's what I had been toldgrowing up and really
(28:19):
internalized that and didn'trealize the harm that that was
causing me.
That to tell myself there's noreason to feel this way.
Well, that led to thoughts ofwell then, what's wrong with me?
Then something's wrong with methen.
Because if there's no reason tofeel this way, why do I still
feel it?
And so I had to reparent myselfand reframe that to actually
(28:40):
there is a reason you feel thisway and it's a very valid reason
.
It is something that, eventhough you can't viscerally
remember it, your body remembersit, and to have that knowledge
was so healing again, it wasjust such a first rudimentary
step, but it really helpedcombat those thoughts of
(29:03):
something's wrong with me andbecause of that I am unlovable,
and just reigniting those fearsand all of that spiraling Well,
and then I'm sure if we couldprobably find a thread of
connection here too.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I know that if I look in retrospect into other
relationships I've had, I'll goto my romantic ones.
It was a very strongundercurrent of whether or not
it was going to be a successfulrelationship, and I would put on
the table for myself that,because that is how I've
(29:39):
approached, or had approached, agood portion of my life.
How can someone who's with a methat is constantly waking up
and trying to justify that Iexist in my mind, I'm abandoned,
I'm worthy and am I going to beloved today?
How does someone next to me,how do they handle that?
(30:04):
Because they're paying in somerespects of this conversation.
They are paying for that painand transference of how I'm
viewing them, not how they'reactually showing up.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Wow, so well said Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Crazy, isn't it Crazy ?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Truly and I am glad that we can find these threads
of connection because I thinkthat moments like this or
comparable moments are so truefor so many adoptees and because
those feelings are so isolatingand those thoughts can be so
overpowering and at a certainpoint I imagine for others, but
(30:45):
definitely for me, that thosethoughts are so overpowering
that that's just what I wouldbelieve about myself and that
was so harmful to the way that Iinteracted with the world and
for my own mental health that Ijust hope that other adoptees
who may be listening or who areexploring those or having those
feelings for themselves don'tfeel so alone because, like you
(31:07):
said, it is a thread ofconnection for adoptees and just
like we very much understandthat experience with each other.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, I would agree, I want to go back to the
beginning of this conversation,where you were talking about
some of your early injectionsinto the adoptee community, and
I think maybe this would be agood space to transition the
conversation a little bit into.
You know, what does thatadvocacy really look like for
(31:36):
you, what's your why and whatare you really looking for in
terms of the advocacy as itrelates to maybe change?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That's such a good question.
Right now, my advocacy is verymuch focused on adoption
education and peopleunderstanding the adoptee
experience and ensuring that ournarrative is shared as much, if
not more, than, adoptiveparents narratives and not that
(32:09):
those narratives aren'timportant, not that those
stories aren't important butthey are often deemed as so
important to society thatadoptees' voices are smothered
and adoptee experiences thatdon't line up with the
positivity of adopted parentsare silenced for the sake of
(32:31):
people's comfort, for the sakeof toxic positivity and for the
pure image people have ofadoption as a purely positive
thing, as a child without afamily gaining a family and how
isn't that such a happy endingand it is so much more
complicated than that.
(32:51):
I mean, I always say but thechild that gained a family also
lost a family, and I feel likethat duality is just not
explored in these conversationsabout adoption, and so my goal
right now is very much to justeducate people about the adoptee
experience, open people's minds, help people think about things
(33:14):
in a way that they might nothave before and really focus on
that education.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Kara, I really like where you're going with that
conversation relative to theelevation of our voices and
helping bridge some gaps, and Ihave found in some of the
conversations I'm having aroundthis entire topic that you're
right, there's such an elementof narrative from the adoptee
(33:41):
parent perspective that may havebeen overshadowing a grander
experience.
And so by us speaking up notnecessarily just speaking out,
but speaking up, which is verydifferent to me than the out
piece right, it helps us try tonot only say, hey, I want you to
(34:02):
hear my voice, but I want toconnect to your voice as well,
because even in thatconversation with an adoptee
parent or a birth parent, thereare threads of connection
equally.
And so when we only approach itfrom our own conversation, I
wonder if we then slightourselves to some extent.
(34:26):
And so, you know, I love theway that you talked about
getting our voice out.
There.
I say we're just finallyshowing up, and now people are
connecting more of those dotsthat say, well, it wasn't Rosie
for that adopted parent.
Now we're confirming it wasn'tRosie for that adoptee and we
(34:49):
are also confirming it's notbeen Rosie for the biological
parents that knew.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Absolutely, and I love what you said about not
just speaking up and out or Ijust you worded it so much more
eloquently than I'm able torepeat, but I just, I really
truly.
That really resonates with meand I think that's so important.
I think that something that inmy work that I try to do is to
(35:17):
meet people where they're at.
If they're willing to learn,then to be able to share and
hopefully expand their worldview, not in a way that's
comfortable for them, but in away that's accessible for them.
And a lot of times, most times,all times, change is
uncomfortable, and reshapingyour world view on something
(35:38):
that is as deeply ingrained inour society as the narrative of
adoption as a purely loving andpositive experience, can be very
jarring for people, and peopleare so committed to that
ideology that even questioningthat is perceived as a threat,
and so that is the hurdle that Ifeel like I work to overcome,
(36:03):
and right now my work is verycentered on adoptees and
entertainment.
Like I mentioned, I had writtenthat talk and I focused on that
kind of research.
But my hope for that and tospeak to your question about how
I see this advocacy inaffecting change, my hope, by
exploring the portrayal oforphans and adoptees in media is
(36:26):
to gauge people's interest andor to pique people's interest
and to address these storiesthat everyone has seen, everyone
has experienced.
They are so beloved, they arepeople's childhood.
But to pique interest in howadoptees are portrayed and
hopefully to introduce them toadoption reform and the ways in
(36:51):
which that adoptees want tochange the system, the ways in
which that we believe ourexperiences could have been
better growing up and bettermoving forward, but to hopefully
get people interested and havethat be an accessible step to
people learning more aboutadoption reform and the changes
that we need to make on alegislative level, on a social
(37:15):
level, all of these differentchanges and how society
perceives adoption.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, I equate it to historical movements in, you
know, even the North Americansociety, not just the global.
But we could, we can, patternthis type of conversation along
the lines of several of thosetypes of civil rights movements,
basic human rights movements,very similar context, and I
(37:44):
think it's fantastic when we'reusing the various platforms and
what burns inside of us to helpkind of move that along in any
way that we can.
I think for myself, I've gottento the point of the
conversation where I don't thinkthere's going to be the type of
reform I want in my lifetime.
I'm okay with that, I'mactually okay with that.
(38:07):
I wish it would go faster, butI'm also enough of a realist to
know that it's it's not going tobe, that you know, it's not
going to be fully reformed.
So maybe if we start with somebasics and those are to your
point, maybe two of all of thoseitems one, the legal reform.
Like, let's go ahead and makesure that there isn't this
(38:30):
concept of closed adoption and Imean it in the in the light of
changing legal documents thatchange my identity or hide who I
am, from me when I'm older andI can, you know, take on that
information and digest it andmove forward.
(38:50):
For myself, I would like to haveseen less, I guess less
importance placed on the birthmother's rights over my rights.
I just nothing in my brain isever going to let me get to a
point where I think that wasokay.
I just right, I've tried, butit's, we're all humans, and so
how did that person's humanrights, you know, supersede mine
(39:13):
, and so I think that's a goodplace to be.
And then the other one is thenarrative.
And then you know it will growand it will always have
different facets to overcomethrough each of the you know
stages of some type of reform.
Sometimes it'll go fast andsometimes it'll go slow.
I think right now we have somemomentum and I don't want us to
(39:35):
lose that.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh, I completely agree.
I think that, with all of theconversations about adoption in
pop culture and with MichaelOher's recent lawsuits
surrounding the blind side, thatthis is a very relevant topic
and I think that people arepeople in our community are
raising their voices in ameaningful way and affecting
(40:02):
change in the narrative and whatpeople are hearing, especially
in the generations to come.
I think that I have a lot ofhope for moving the needle
forward.
Like you said, I don't thinkit's moving fast enough for my
taste, but these things rarelydo, so I'm very hopeful that the
(40:24):
work that you do, the work thatI'm doing, that will push the
needle forward to set aprecedent for the change that we
want to see.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, as we're starting toclose out our conversation today
, I just want to put out thereIs there anything that we
haven't talked about yet thatyou really want to make sure
hits this airwave?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I appreciate you asking that I have so deeply
enjoyed our conversation andspeaking to you.
You're so eloquent about justnot only your feelings on
adoption but your understandingof the community and
understanding of what ourcommunity needs, and so I just
really appreciate that andappreciate this conversation
(41:10):
that we've been able to have.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Oh, thank you so much .
Well, I know it's been a joy,and one of the things I want to
close with is you are alwayswelcome here.
So the next time you have anitem come up or you're going to
get that TED Talk approved and Iknow we've talked previously
you really are doing a lot ofadvocation.
(41:32):
That is harder to see becauseit's in that entertainment world
which creates a little bit of aseparation from what I would
say normal Lisa and normal Kira,right, and so I just want to
praise you for that, and it hasbeen a joy to have you on the
show.
You are welcome here anytime.
(41:53):
It's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Thank you.
That means the world to me andit's so wonderful to speak to
you.
I'm so glad we connected and Ijust hope we continue to have
these conversations.
I think that they're importantand they're really fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
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