Join us with our esteemed guest Jenny Becknell as she offers an intimate look into the emotional aftermath of the next two decades of the open adoptions journey, from the touching creation of a heartfelt video for her daughters' 18th birthday to the raw emotions stirred by an unexpected request from Anna's adoptive mother. This episode promises a heartfelt exploration of what it means to navigate these deeply personal experiences, shedding light on the interconnected lives of birth mothers, adoptees, and adoptive families.
As her daughter turns 18, we tackle the shifting dynamics within the adoption triad, exploring the evolving roles and emotions as Jenny grapples with feelings of connection and threat. Our conversation emphasizes the importance of honest communication, revealing the delicate balance between maintaining relationships and acknowledging the fear of being cut off. Jenny's candid reflections on this transformative phase highlight the critical role of empathy and understanding in preventing breakdowns in dialogue, offering listeners valuable insights into the nuances of adoption relationships.
Our discussion further unveils the intricate dynamics of sharing difficult truths and understanding the often-overlooked perspective of birth mothers. Jenny courageously speaks about the challenges of expressing her feelings and the societal perceptions that contribute to her sense of alienation. Through her story, we aim to foster a deeper understanding of the birth mother's journey, emphasizing the need for unconditional love, respect, and open communication. This episode is a heartfelt invitation to understand the complex, emotional world of adoption, leaving listeners with a renewed empathy for all involved.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
some of the topics of differences were things that
they're, that they definitelyknew about me because I had
shared that.
I shared certain things withthem when I met them, just about
myself and my feelings andthoughts about things, I was
blindsided by not knowing thedifferences.
I guess on the other side ofthat, Welcome to Wandering Tree
(00:40):
Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am your host, lisa Anne.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
It has been a fantastic journeyover the last four to five
years hosting this podcast andsharing out with each and every
one of you.
To date, here is what I havepersonally learned Our numbers
(01:02):
are many, we yearn for supportand understanding, we desire to
better ourselves, we desireconnections and, for some, we
strive to aid others throughgroups, books, blogs and
podcasts.
Today we are completing ourseries where we are creating a
connection, understanding andempathy between birth and
(01:23):
Adoptees.
This is our third and finalepisode in this three-part
series with our guest of honor,jenny Becknell.
Good afternoon, welcome againto the show, hi, lisa.
Well, we've had quite thejourney, you and I, over the
last two previous episodes,where we've connected dots
(01:44):
between pregnancy, birth andrelinquishment, and today we're
going to go into post 18 years.
Before we do that, I think itwould be a good idea for us to
share with the listeners acouple of things that have
happened post each of theseepisodes where we've been off
mic or a couple days later andwe've had some type of a
(02:07):
reaction to our conversationAfter our first episode.
You called me.
You were just really compelledto ask me some questions.
You had this weird feeling andwe talked through it.
We won't share what it is, butit was just really a unique
opportunity for us, post theepisode number one, to connect
(02:29):
even further.
And after we hung up I waspretty much like a mess.
I was in massive tears for youand your daughter, anna, and I
(02:51):
knew why later and I want toshare with you a little bit
because I could see through thatepisode how this episode was
going to kind of unfold massiveindicators.
But the item that really toreme apart for several days was
when you shared with ourlisteners that during the time
(03:12):
period where you were engagedwith Anna and her adoptive
mother, one of the things thatwas asked of you was that you
drop your daughter off at heradoptive family's house after a
visit, so that it would be likeyou were leaving again.
And I thought to myself as youwere talking about it, as we
(03:34):
ended the episode and many dayslater, what a terrible thing to
have to do for you and for yourdaughter.
I was thinking the whole time.
I'm an adoptee and I know whatit's like to hear words such as
relinquished, given up, chosen.
All the garbage let's just behonest garbage and I was just
(03:54):
like why add to it so selfish?
Just so you know, I thoughtthat was a selfish ask of the
adoptee mother.
She doesn't have to agree withme, she doesn't even have to
know me, but just so we'regetting the cards on the table
as we dive into the next part oftoday.
I've been kind of angry onbehalf of your daughter, anna,
almost the entire time.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I am too, and I will say I do.
I'm not taking away at all fromwhat you're saying, but I do a
little bit feel like it'simportant for me just to state
that I do know that she did.
What I was told by her was thatshe sought counsel, and that's
what they suggested to her thatshe do.
So I just want to say that Imean she could obviously
(04:39):
disagree with them or whatever,but and it never hit me that way
Because, again, I always wantedto do what was best for Anna.
So if that's what people youknow the experts were saying
that I believed them, you know Itrusted them with that.
So I do appreciate you sharingthat with me and I hope and look
forward to one day hearingAnna's side of things, but for
(05:01):
now she's still just veryobligated and silent, so I don't
hear any of those things.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah and you may never.
You may never hear those.
So it's a crazy world.
Well, let's go ahead and diveinto today's conversation, the
continuation of your story,where we're going to move past
those first 18 years, and someof the things that have you know
kind of transpired since,because it's been an interesting
(05:28):
backside journey as well.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yes, it has.
So I guess we're kind ofstarting off with when Anna
turned 18.
I was just actually talkingwith my husband this morning
about this again, and so whenAnna turned 18, I had the most,
the craziest reaction to her.
I don't know if we talked aboutthis at all last time, but to
her turning 18, I was anabsolute, complete, just
(05:54):
devastated mess for months, formonths before she turned 18,
leading up to her 18th birthday,and I had made the decision to
make a video for her for her18th birthday, and the video was
going to be her entire lifewith me, our life together.
And so it started off literallypictures of her birth, father,
(06:18):
pictures of myself, what welooked like when she, you know,
came into the world.
So I had pictures of the two ofus and then I had her birth,
you know, came into the world.
So I had pictures of the two ofus and then I had her birth.
You know, pictures of her birthand who was there, and then
some little dialogue.
I had never made a video or amovie before, but it was kind of
fun to do and one of my sonsactually helped me do it.
I literally put this entirething together from her birth
(06:40):
all the way up to her 18thbirthday.
Letters, all of the plays thatshe was in, the little whatever
those little booklets are calledI know there's a name for them
that have everyone's that's inthe play and literally just like
everything letters that shewrote to me, letters that her
mom had given to me over theyears, little cards and things
like that that we had sharedback and forth, and lots and
(07:02):
lots of pictures.
And and then I and I picked outsongs and I mean some.
Really it's, it's it's gutwrenching.
This it's 35 minutes long.
Did you watch it?
I started to watch it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, I watched half of it, as you and I talked about
just a couple minutes ago offmic.
I traveled the last few weeksand so I did watch a little bit
of it while I could, and yeah,and then I knew that I would get
to the end of it at some point.
But, to be honest, for me thosesometimes are hard to watch.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Oh, yeah, oh, they're definitely hard to watch.
It's I mean in this, in the onethat I sent to you.
Actually I found it and Ivideoed it from my phone and so
you can hear me in thebackground sobbing.
I don't know if you noticedthat it's really, but anyway, I
didn't even know that, I didn'tthink you could hear any of that
.
But when I did go back andlisten to the one that I sent
(07:56):
and realize that you can hearthat at points, but it is so
hard to watch, it's so hard towatch but it is so good and I
love that I did it.
I love it.
It's probably one of myfavorite things that I've done.
And I don't, to this day, thinkthat Anna has ever watched it.
And it's been another 18 years.
She will be 32 years old thisThursday, so we are literally 18
(08:24):
years again past her 18thbirthday.
I don't know that it's everbeen.
I don't know.
She's never made a commentabout it.
I tried to send her the samething I sent to you and got
nothing back from her about it.
So, moving forward from there,that was her 18th birthday.
She graduated from high school.
Her birth father and I were ather graduation with our, you
(08:44):
know, my husband and my childrenwent also and we have, you know
, our little family picturestogether, like we always did
over the years and still do tothis day.
She was 18.
So then, in 2014, so I had had aconversation with her mother,
letting her know this is really,I'm scared, like I'm scared.
(09:05):
What if she?
Like all of these 18 years,you've kind of facilitated our
relationship, so you've alwaysbeen the one to kind of give me
permission to see her, and howoften and how long we're
together and where we gotogether and what activities we
do together.
Like, you've always been incharge of that and now you're
not going to be in charge.
(09:26):
And what if she doesn't chooseme?
What if she chooses to not haveme around?
What if she?
You know, what if?
Like, that was very scary and Ishared that with her mom, never
thinking, ever thinking, thatmaybe her mom was thinking the
same thing on the other end.
Looking back now, I think thatprobably was happening for her
as well, but she didn't sharethat with me.
(09:48):
And so, moving forward a coupleof years, so there was an event
that took place and her mom andI are on very different sides of
the table, or whatever thesaying is I'm never good with
those things Very differentsides of our opinions on how we
feel about certain topics andthings.
And so something had happened,and at this point Hannah was 21
(10:11):
years old and I felt verycomfortable talking to her about
my feelings about things atthis point, and I'm sharing,
doing my parenting, part of mylife with her, and so I felt
very comfortable, even thoughour opinions may have been
different.
I felt comfortable talking toAnna about that.
She was 21.
She wasn't a little kid anymore, and so I shared that with her,
(10:34):
and I guess she had told herparents how I felt, and so I got
a message.
This was like one of the firstreal humdingers I guess for me
is a nice way to say it, but Ihad gotten a message from her
mom basically saying you don'tneed to share your judgments
(10:54):
about Anna's parents with her.
You can feel however you wantto feel about it, but don't
share those feelings with herwithout thoughtful reflection
about how you're going to be ofservice to Anna.
This isn't about you, thisisn't about your choice about
things, so you don't need to berunning your home movie for Anna
.
Well, never until literallyyesterday did I connect that
(11:19):
that home movie had to do withthat 18th birthday video.
I always wondered what shemeant about a home movie, do you
think?
Maybe it's not?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
No, I'm right with you, I, I wow.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, and never until yesterday, and this was
in 2014.
So that was 10 years ago andI'm just now connecting so that
was 10 years ago and I'm justnow connecting that that was
about the home.
So that's when I startedrealizing, oh, all of these
things, that all this disconnectI've been feeling since she
turned 18, it's real.
Like that is real, and I wasshocked by that.
(11:55):
Like she had never said notthat she'd never said anything
that hurt me before, but not tothat oomph that really put a big
wedge between us.
At that point, my havingdifferent thoughts and opinions
about topics was not okay withher.
Like it was not okay.
There were times that we hadconversations where she would
(12:16):
tell me can you please call herback and tell her that's not how
you felt.
Tell her you changed your mindand this is what you think, and
I'm like, no, not going to dothat, that's not going to happen
.
A few years after that, she wasreally rebelling in life in
general, just really making baddecisions, bad decisions, bad
decisions, and so there were alot of times that her mom and I
(12:38):
were on the same page about howwe felt about those things, and
we would we would carefullydiscuss them.
I was always very careful tonot say anything negative about
Anna, though I would.
I would just say, yeah, I'mdisappointed that that was what
she chose, but you know, she'sgot to learn, she's got to.
Sometimes you, you got to failin order to figure it out.
So we just got to let her failsometimes.
(13:00):
Well, she was never okay withthat.
She was always.
You know, before the pen wouldhit the floor, you know her mom
would do 15 flips and catch thatpen, and so that was not
something that she was okay with.
But a few years later, I hadeven gotten a message for me to
(13:21):
call and let Anna know, or shewas upset with me because I had
implied that she had put Annadown, that she had said
something negative to her andthat that would be a real
disservice to Anna for me to besaying something negative about
her mom and that I shouldn'timply that for me to be saying
something negative about her momand that I shouldn't imply that
.
And it's sad because I even,like, responded like oh no, I
(13:43):
wasn't saying that I'm herparent and I said I never said
that I was a perfect parent.
I was just telling you myfeelings.
I'm not her parent either,which I definitely did my fair
share, by the way.
I'm her birth mother.
We are just looking at thingsdifferently.
That's just a fact.
We've had different lifeexperiences, so we are reacting
from those experiences andparenting from those.
(14:05):
That is just how it is.
I'm sorry if that upsets you.
Well, you implied that Anna hadbeen put down and had been made
to feel less than, and that youwould indeed never do that.
I presume that you were talkingabout your never having done
that with your children.
That's unfortunate for Anna,because she does just keep
(14:25):
finding new ways to not beresponsible.
So Anna had had a really badday at work and she didn't want
to deal with the reactions fromher parents, or she didn't wear
the right thing to work orsomething.
And they sent her home and shecame to my.
She had gone to my house andshe was asking me did you know
that she was at my, at yourhouse?
And I said, no, I didn't knowshe was at my house, but she's
(14:46):
always welcome to come to myhouse and I oh well, aren't you
the perfect?
I would.
You know I'm not going to judgeher, whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Let's pause for just one minute.
We're going to go back just alittle bit.
You've unpacked a lot and Ithink we can pull a couple of
nuggets out.
There was a distinct shift inyour story in the first few
minutes here of this episode,where there was kumbaya, my
words, the first 18 years, andthen a cliff almost.
(15:16):
And when I'm listening to younow, you're reading some of the
dialogue from 18 to.
It looks like about 20, 21, 22,23.
That had to have been anextremely interesting time for
Anna as well.
That mark of 18 years probablymeans something different for
(15:41):
adoptees and each adoptee thanit might have meant for you or
even for the adopted parents.
I'm going to apply my ownexperience At 18, that is when I
knew there were differentoptions.
Now I might not have beenmature enough to exercise those
(16:03):
options, but I knew they existed.
Also, I'm reflecting on myselfat 18.
I certainly wasn't ready to tryto navigate the emotional mind
field of two other adults, whichis kind of what's coming across
right now.
What I'm finding even moreinteresting and it colors my
(16:27):
perspective on the adoptedparent is when the narrative
changed and she was no longerable to control every aspect.
And I'm also wondering inreflection, jenny, if your
behavior changed, Because priorto that birthday you were kind
(16:49):
of toe on the line.
I hardly doubt your opinionsjust formed on day number two,
post-18 birthday, but you justweren't expressing them.
So your behavior changes,anna's behavior changes.
Adopt-e a parent behaviorchanges and everybody's trying
to navigate this new, new.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes, yes, definitely, and I know that some of the
topics of differences werethings that they definitely knew
about me because I had sharedthat.
I'd shared certain things withthem when I met them, just about
myself and my feelings andthoughts about things.
I was blindsided by not knowingthe differences.
(17:34):
I guess on the other side ofthat, that was a real shock to
me and so I definitely wasreacting from that.
And let's not forget also thatat this point I had four other
children.
I was a true mom, I was aparent and had been parenting.
(17:54):
And was I parenting Anne on aday-to-day basis?
No, I definitely wasn't.
But she knew me.
Like we didn't have a lot Imean, there's a lot of the
things that you know.
She knew my personality, sheknew what I liked, she knew what
made me laugh, she knew howsimilar we were.
It wasn't like I had come intoher life in a reunion sense,
(18:16):
where she just suddenly met herbirth mother and I was just
pretending to be her parent,like I had been parenting Anna
on and off in my own sort of wayover the years.
And so she I definitely.
You know she and I argued, sheand I had disagreements and you
know I told Anna, no, it wasn'tlike it was.
(18:36):
Everything was always yes.
You know, I shared those thingswith her.
So it just had never come outthat way.
And prior to this we had a veryrespectful relationship and she,
I thought, enjoyed sharing thethings that were similar to her
and I, like she would share withme.
Your daughter did this, yourdaughter did that.
(18:58):
Look what your daughter didtoday.
She would say things like youknow, our teenage daughter is
acting like our baby.
You know we saw Jenny todaywhen Anna was doing this, like
she would share those thingswith me in an endearing, kind
way.
So it was never didn't come tome that I was ever a threat to
(19:22):
any part of her parenting upuntil this point.
And now it was starting to comeout that my opinions, my
thoughts, who I was, was now athreat to who she is, and it was
the first I was really seeingthat and I think I was really
kind of rebelling against it, Iguess in my own way.
And I also want to say that Iknow I appreciate you sharing
(19:45):
how you feel about those thingsand I by no means am trying to
say like I'm the perfect personand I've handled all of these
things exactly as I should have,because I'm sure that in
another 18 years I'll look backat the things I did today and be
like you're such a dumb, youknow idiot doing that.
So I do.
(20:07):
I do recognize that I for suremade my own fair share of
mistakes, and I think the sadpart about it is that it's the
conversation is completely cutoff, like there is just no
digging through thisrespectfully together anymore,
which is very sad yeah, my keytakeaway is the turning point
(20:28):
may have been on all sidespretty equally.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I listen to all of the you know dialogue and what
I'm hearing from you as well.
You did toe a a line.
Do you think you did thatbecause you were fearful of
being cut off, even though youdid share your perspectives and
your opinions?
I'm wondering if they were alittle bit softened.
18 comes, you're no longer assoft as you were.
(20:54):
Do you think that had any playhere?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I mean, I don't know, I don't.
I think that maybe in my mind Ithought that when she turned 18
, I mean, like the whole likenarrative of I'm the birth
mother would go away, kind ofthing.
And I still struggle with thateven now, like now that she's 32
(21:23):
years old, or almost 32 yearsold I'm I.
There are definitely thingsthat I think is there that are
unfair of me.
I do think they're unfair of methat they bother me, but they
do bother me.
So I don't want to pretend thatthey don't bother me, because
that would be dishonest.
And I think the thing that Ireally want to more than
(21:44):
anything, display or try tofigure out with this whole
adoption everything is the truthin all of it, and so I think it
would be dishonest of me to say, like I cannot stand, that she
calls me Jenny, but it neverbothered me for 18 years.
It never bothered me that shecalled me Jenny.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, that's very interesting because I would
offer up this to you as well.
When I met my birth mother, itwas emotional, it was awkward.
As more time went on it becamea little bit more awkward, and
the two things that made meconsistently uncomfortable as
the adoptee.
(22:25):
She would introduce me as herdaughter, as if she had raised
me, and she would tell me sheloved me.
Keep in mind, I did not meether until I was trying to count
now late 40s, and I didn't havethat emotional love connection
(22:45):
to her, and it upset her.
It would upset her if I didn'trespond with I love you too.
Now, that doesn't mean I didn'thave a lot of empathy or that I
didn't care about her or that Ididn't want the best for her.
I just didn't know her in thatcontext.
(23:06):
And so I'm wondering here too.
Another takeaway is you haveall of this going on and you
don't like the term birth mother, but age didn't change that
fact, right?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
right?
Yeah, definitely I mean, and,like I said, I know, I know that
it's not and I don't.
I have shared it with Annabefore, but I'm not like stuck
on it, I'm not like trying tomake her call me mom or anything
.
I've just I have shared withher how I feel about it and I
just I've just let it go.
(23:47):
You know, I I know that I justneed to let that go because it's
not her problem, it's not herissue.
She didn't ask for any of this.
She didn't ask for any of it,so it isn't her burden to carry.
You know, it's just something Ihave to deal.
It's just another one of themany things that I have to deal
with because of the decisionthat I made for her life.
(24:09):
And I do get that.
But it would be dishonest of meto not share that.
It does bother me.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, and I think that it's important for
listeners to hear that those arethings that bother you as well.
The context is different.
The context is drasticallydifferent.
You're resonating.
I am a birth parent.
You're resonating.
I helped for 18 years.
I was deeply involved.
It was all good.
Then we have this like flipswitching birth date Somewhere
(24:37):
in here.
Everybody had a differentcontext for that.
Now here we are another, youknow, almost 18 years later, and
the perspective is justgrounding and very interesting.
I know it's hard, it's hard onall angles, and so we're looking
at this from that, you know,from that lens that says this is
(24:58):
how the birth mother feels.
We're also, you know, you and I, looking at it from the lens of
me saying, yeah, and this ishow the adoptee might feel,
regardless of age.
It's very intriguing.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I love this part of our conversation for that reason
, because here we disagree it'sokay.
It's okay that we disagree.
I think that's always like mybig go-to thing Like I'm not
looking to agree with everyoneon how they feel, but we do need
to allow the other person tohave their own feelings.
(25:51):
And whatever it is that'shappening as long as the
conversation is continuing, isthat's happening, like we, if as
long as the conversation iscontinuing, it's good.
It's when you decide, okay,we're going to cut this off.
I disagree with what you sayadoptive mother or birth mother
or adoptee Like that's whenwe're, when we're pointing
fingers at each other instead oflooking within.
(26:12):
I feel like that's where itreally.
You know, the conversationstops and then nothing changes.
And I think that a big thingfor me is that we really need to
listen to each other, like wereally really do, like all of us
need to.
And most importantly number one, most important is we need to
listen to the adopted person'sperspective, because they have
(26:38):
never had any decisionwhatsoever and they deserve to
know the truth.
And if I could say anything tobirth mothers like all birth
mothers, every birth motherlistening and I hope that lots
of birth mothers listen, is thatwe have to.
We have to be able to listen,we have to be able to accept
(27:00):
what is being said regardless,and to know that, regardless of
where we got where we are today,that our children deserve the
absolute truth.
And so when I hear any adoptedperson and say, yeah, I met my
birth mother and she cut me offand she didn't ever tell any of
her other people, or okay, likeeveryone has to go through their
(27:25):
things, but we have to behonest.
Whether it was that you endedup pregnant because of a rape,
whatever the reason might be,they deserve to know the truth
of how they came to be and whothey are.
Like the truth and they candeal with it.
We're adults.
We can deal with hard things.
We all have dealt with hardthings.
(27:47):
We will continue for the restof our lives to deal with hard
things, but there is nothingharder than trying to figure out
things that are not being toldto us, and we always make it way
worse than it usually is anyway.
And so a place that we knowthat is important to hear and
for people to know is that wehave to be honest.
(28:10):
Even if it's hard, we have tobe honest.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I agree there's a reciprocal of that as well,
which is each person in theconversation, regardless of
their role, because it could bean adjunct support person, it
could be social work, it couldbe, you know, the person trying
to navigate new informationabout themselves.
(28:33):
It could be the person sharingreally hard information.
The point I believe that you'rereally trying to get to is we
just all have to listen to oneanother.
I've heard you say so far inour conversation during this
time period and you're going tocontinue on a little bit more
with some of the challenges youwould say you weren't always
(28:54):
behaving in the best interest ofthe big circle either, because
we're humans and it's emotionaland it's a lot all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Oh yeah, I mean I watch myself sometimes become
literally like a 12-year-old kidthrowing a temper tantrum.
I mean it's so ridiculous.
And I just look at myself andI've got to like pull myself out
of it.
I will like text the mostimmature thing and then I'm like
, do not hit, send, you've gotto delete that whole thing, you
(29:27):
know.
But I mean, luckily my husbandGod bless him is my sounding
board and so I can go to himwith anything and I don't know
how he still survives withhaving me as his wife sometimes,
but by golly he does it.
He'll take it all for me.
I mean, he's such a trooper.
I put him through such anemotional roller coaster, but he
(29:49):
gets all of those feelings andI am so blessed to have him.
But yeah, I mean it is hard andlike you were talking earlier
about all of the things thathave happened in between, all of
these calls that you and I havehad with each other and
continuously having panicattacks in the middle of the
night, it's happening, I'mwaking up in the middle of the
night.
I've had to teach myself how tobreathe.
(30:11):
I've been doing this in themiddle of the night to calm
myself because I will wake upwith my blood boiling and my
body shaking and I've beenhaving a lot of yeah.
I mean it's been interestingtoo.
I think it's been good, I thinkthis has been good for me to go
through through, but it's alsoreally, really hard, because
(30:38):
sometimes the truth in all ofthis stuff is it's hard to talk
about.
Do my feelings matter to anyone?
Does anyone care, really careabout the birth mother and what
they experience?
I feel like I have really dugdeep into finding out how it
feels to be the adoptee, and Ifeel like I have dug really deep
(30:58):
into learning about what it'slike to be an adopted parent and
what they go through and theloss of not being able to carry
your own child.
I've really done a lot of workwith that.
I really have, and so I justthink, does, does?
Does anybody else care?
Like, does her mom care aboutwhat I might be going through?
(31:18):
Does Anna care what I might begoing through?
Or is that wrong of me to evenwonder my reaction to your
question is divided.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
My first reaction is are you asking do the people
that are closest to you, and inthis with you, more specifically
Anna and the adoptive parents,care?
They're the only ones that aregoing to be able to answer that
there's, you know, and I don'tknow what signal you would be
(31:47):
looking for from them to knowthat they care.
Think about that for a littlebit.
What would be that signal?
You guys are still engaged in arelationship, so something
tells me it's not as fatalistic,detrimental as it may feel
Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt,right?
Clearly it still hurts, or wewouldn't be talking about it.
(32:11):
The second part where I'mdivided is around the
conversation more globallywithin the community.
I would offer this up.
No, not everyone's going tocare, just like not everyone
cares what an adoptive parenthas to say.
Not everyone cares about whatan adoptee has to say.
(32:33):
Those are just facts.
It's common.
But I do believe with all myheart, there is enough in the
community broad brush term wherethere is care, right, there's
enough desire to have theseconversations.
Or you and I wouldn't betalking.
There's enough desire to shareand educate, or there wouldn't
(32:57):
have been events this year,right?
So, reflecting on what you'vejust said, take out the hurt
component Deep down.
You know people do care whatbirth mothers, and fathers for
that matter, have to say.
Is there a path out of the hurt?
I hope so.
(33:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, that's a tough question.
I didn't think we were goingthis route today, but I'm really
glad that we did, because it'simportant.
One of the things that I thinkabout is my reaction and how I
get hurt for the really simplestuff.
It rubs me absolutely the wrongway when someone says, oh, how
(33:40):
lucky you are, you were adopted,or I wish I had been adopted.
I don't see that side of thecoin.
The reason I don't see thatside of the coin is because I
also don't understand what woulddrive someone to say that.
I'm sure it's a lot ofchallenges in life where the
perception is to have been givenan opportunity to do something
(34:01):
different, not understanding itwasn't an opportunity given, it
was imposed upon.
Well, let's get us a little bitback on track.
So you've been working throughthis post-18th birthday for
several years.
Now You're about to celebrateanother birthday with Anna.
Are you navigating in a placeof friction between all three?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
of you.
Well, ever since mygranddaughter has been born, her
mom doesn't talk to me at allanymore.
She's blocked me completelyfrom any contact whatsoever.
When my granddaughter was born,during this pandemic, there was
a lot again that happened thedifferences between who's really
(34:44):
in charge of life, you know,for this little person, and so I
was very respectful of mydaughter's, whatever her kind of
rules were for the house.
So you know, even during that,I would never have put Anna in
that position to choose one overthe other.
I would have made that decisionfor her and not made it
difficult whatsoever.
(35:05):
So, anyway, so, but once mygranddaughter was born, I was
going to be staying with Annafor a week or so after the baby
was born and her mom, I guess,wanted, expected me to wear a
mask the entire time, and I wasgoing to be in Anna's house, and
so I asked Anna how she feltabout it and she was like you
don't need to wear a mask.
Anyway, it turned into a bigfight where I was screamed at,
(35:30):
screamed at, and while I washolding the baby, her mom was
yelling at me about not wearinga mask and what a terrible
person I was and that she wouldnever treat my grandchild that
way.
It was this big power struggle.
I was told to leave the house.
I wasn't allowed to be therebecause technically they own the
(35:51):
house that my daughter lives in, and so it just it became.
It was just disgusting.
I did leave and I'm, you know,a grown adult, like 48 year old
woman it was.
It felt so strange to me to betreated like that.
I really just cared about likemaking sure that Anna was
comfortable and making sure Annawas happy, and you know, and it
(36:12):
has been that kind of strugglesince then.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
What an interesting perspective at this point, but
more importantly, as you weresaying that, what was going
through my mind is there notenough room in the world for
everyone?
What is ultimately the powerstruggle here?
Wouldn't you want kids of anyage adults, humans, I mean in
(36:42):
that tiered order to just feelabsolutely loved, with no
conditions, no labels, no drama?
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I don't get that and I think that is for me the
difficult place, because I donot ever want to put Anna in a
place where she has to feel likeshe has to choose.
I never want that for her andyou know, ultimately it's just,
it's hard because I do love hermom and I know it doesn't
(37:15):
probably sound like that rightnow hearing what I'm having to
say, but I really do love her.
I am super thankful foreverything that she gave me the
opportunity to do.
I know that most open adoptionsclose very quickly and she did
not do that and I have very muchrecognized her.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I have thanked her for that that I realized that
she could have at any point donethat and she never did so
knowing that this is anextremely complex topic and we
have spent three conversationsaround it, what is it that you
think would be the one, two,three takeaways from all three
(37:58):
of these episodes that you wouldlike the listeners to leave
with?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
No matter where you are and your thoughts about
adoption.
I think that it's really reallyimportant that we all listen to
each other really, reallyimportant that we all listen to
each other.
I think that it's extremelyimportant to, most importantly,
to listen to adoptees and totheir experiences and to their
stories, to allow them to speaktheir truth and not try to stop
(38:29):
them from feeling how they'refeeling.
I think it is extremelyimportant to have your voice and
to speak your thoughts, and ifthe people around you aren't
willing to listen to that, keeplooking, because there are
people that will.
I think the truth sets us free.
The truth is so important inthat every single person that's
(38:50):
walking on the face of thisearth deserves to know what
their truth is and deserves toknow everything about themselves
, and they shouldn't have to paytons and tons of money to find
it.
And I would say thing that Iwould love for listeners to hear
is that I will, for the rest ofmy life as a birth mother.
(39:14):
I will forever grieve not beingable to parent my child, and if
I had one thing that I wouldchange in my life if I could go
back, I would, 1 million percent, have never, ever, ever signed
(39:34):
a paper to give a gift toanother person, and I lived my
entire life, every single day,trying to be better, was shaped
by that decision.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
That's very special.
I think that I will close uswith this.
That's entire life, so thatdecision should never be taken
(40:24):
lightly.
We know that, we've been livingit, and there is not one thing
that we can say that will lessenhow impactful that statement is
to ourselves and how we feelabout it, how I feel about it as
I say it, how you feel about itas you hear it, and how others
feel about it when they listen.
(40:45):
It is paramount to understand.
One decision shapes many lives,no different than other
decisions in your life, but thisis just one of those that it's
just so hard to put tangiblethings around it.
I am so thankful you've beenwilling to come on the show and
(41:06):
to be raw and real about theexperience from your lens, and
also to be willing to hear whatI've had to say encounter to
some of your feelings, and sothose are precious moments that
I just really am thankful tohave had with you, I feel the
(41:27):
exact same way I adore you, andI know that it may I'm not
expecting you to say it back tome, but I do love you.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I really do.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, knowing how I feel about that statement, that
is a very, very kind thing tosay, and I have very strong
emotions towards you as well,and so I think we're going to
call it a day, and I'm lookingforward to when we move on in a
few months and maybe come backaround and say what have we
(41:57):
learned from this experience orhear from others.
So hit us up and let us knowwhat you've learned from this
dialogue and this three episodeseries.
It has been absolutelyenlightening, so thank you again
.
Thank you, lisa.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
(42:20):
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
Thank you.
some of the topics of differences were things that
they're, that they definitelyknew about me because I had
shared that.
I shared certain things withthem when I met them, just about
myself and my feelings andthoughts about things, I was
blindsided by not knowing thedifferences.
I guess on the other side ofthat, Welcome to Wandering Tree
(00:40):
Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am your host, lisa Anne.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
It has been a fantastic journeyover the last four to five
years hosting this podcast andsharing out with each and every
one of you.
To date, here is what I havepersonally learned Our numbers
(01:02):
are many, we yearn for supportand understanding, we desire to
better ourselves, we desireconnections and, for some, we
strive to aid others throughgroups, books, blogs and
podcasts.
Today we are completing ourseries where we are creating a
connection, understanding andempathy between birth and
(01:23):
Adoptees.
This is our third and finalepisode in this three-part
series with our guest of honor,jenny Becknell.
Good afternoon, welcome againto the show, hi, lisa.
Well, we've had quite thejourney, you and I, over the
last two previous episodes,where we've connected dots
(01:44):
between pregnancy, birth andrelinquishment, and today we're
going to go into post 18 years.
Before we do that, I think itwould be a good idea for us to
share with the listeners acouple of things that have
happened post each of theseepisodes where we've been off
mic or a couple days later andwe've had some type of a
(02:07):
reaction to our conversationAfter our first episode.
You called me.
You were just really compelledto ask me some questions.
You had this weird feeling andwe talked through it.
We won't share what it is, butit was just really a unique
opportunity for us, post theepisode number one, to connect
(02:29):
even further.
And after we hung up I waspretty much like a mess.
I was in massive tears for youand your daughter, anna, and I
(02:51):
knew why later and I want toshare with you a little bit
because I could see through thatepisode how this episode was
going to kind of unfold massiveindicators.
But the item that really toreme apart for several days was
when you shared with ourlisteners that during the time
(03:12):
period where you were engagedwith Anna and her adoptive
mother, one of the things thatwas asked of you was that you
drop your daughter off at heradoptive family's house after a
visit, so that it would be likeyou were leaving again.
And I thought to myself as youwere talking about it, as we
(03:34):
ended the episode and many dayslater, what a terrible thing to
have to do for you and for yourdaughter.
I was thinking the whole time.
I'm an adoptee and I know whatit's like to hear words such as
relinquished, given up, chosen.
All the garbage let's just behonest garbage and I was just
(03:54):
like why add to it so selfish?
Just so you know, I thoughtthat was a selfish ask of the
adoptee mother.
She doesn't have to agree withme, she doesn't even have to
know me, but just so we'regetting the cards on the table
as we dive into the next part oftoday.
I've been kind of angry onbehalf of your daughter, anna,
almost the entire time.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I am too, and I will say I do.
I'm not taking away at all fromwhat you're saying, but I do a
little bit feel like it'simportant for me just to state
that I do know that she did.
What I was told by her was thatshe sought counsel, and that's
what they suggested to her thatshe do.
So I just want to say that Imean she could obviously
(04:39):
disagree with them or whatever,but and it never hit me that way
Because, again, I always wantedto do what was best for Anna.
So if that's what people youknow the experts were saying
that I believed them, you know Itrusted them with that.
So I do appreciate you sharingthat with me and I hope and look
forward to one day hearingAnna's side of things, but for
(05:01):
now she's still just veryobligated and silent, so I don't
hear any of those things.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah and you may never.
You may never hear those.
So it's a crazy world.
Well, let's go ahead and diveinto today's conversation, the
continuation of your story,where we're going to move past
those first 18 years, and someof the things that have you know
kind of transpired since,because it's been an interesting
(05:28):
backside journey as well.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yes, it has.
So I guess we're kind ofstarting off with when Anna
turned 18.
I was just actually talkingwith my husband this morning
about this again, and so whenAnna turned 18, I had the most,
the craziest reaction to her.
I don't know if we talked aboutthis at all last time, but to
her turning 18, I was anabsolute, complete, just
(05:54):
devastated mess for months, formonths before she turned 18,
leading up to her 18th birthday,and I had made the decision to
make a video for her for her18th birthday, and the video was
going to be her entire lifewith me, our life together.
And so it started off literallypictures of her birth, father,
(06:18):
pictures of myself, what welooked like when she, you know,
came into the world.
So I had pictures of the two ofus and then I had her birth,
you know, came into the world.
So I had pictures of the two ofus and then I had her birth.
You know, pictures of her birthand who was there, and then
some little dialogue.
I had never made a video or amovie before, but it was kind of
fun to do and one of my sonsactually helped me do it.
I literally put this entirething together from her birth
(06:40):
all the way up to her 18thbirthday.
Letters, all of the plays thatshe was in, the little whatever
those little booklets are calledI know there's a name for them
that have everyone's that's inthe play and literally just like
everything letters that shewrote to me, letters that her
mom had given to me over theyears, little cards and things
like that that we had sharedback and forth, and lots and
(07:02):
lots of pictures.
And and then I and I picked outsongs and I mean some.
Really it's, it's it's gutwrenching.
This it's 35 minutes long.
Did you watch it?
I started to watch it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, I watched half of it, as you and I talked about
just a couple minutes ago offmic.
I traveled the last few weeksand so I did watch a little bit
of it while I could, and yeah,and then I knew that I would get
to the end of it at some point.
But, to be honest, for me thosesometimes are hard to watch.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Oh, yeah, oh, they're definitely hard to watch.
It's I mean in this, in the onethat I sent to you.
Actually I found it and Ivideoed it from my phone and so
you can hear me in thebackground sobbing.
I don't know if you noticedthat it's really, but anyway, I
didn't even know that, I didn'tthink you could hear any of that
.
But when I did go back andlisten to the one that I sent
(07:56):
and realize that you can hearthat at points, but it is so
hard to watch, it's so hard towatch but it is so good and I
love that I did it.
I love it.
It's probably one of myfavorite things that I've done.
And I don't, to this day, thinkthat Anna has ever watched it.
And it's been another 18 years.
She will be 32 years old thisThursday, so we are literally 18
(08:24):
years again past her 18thbirthday.
I don't know that it's everbeen.
I don't know.
She's never made a commentabout it.
I tried to send her the samething I sent to you and got
nothing back from her about it.
So, moving forward from there,that was her 18th birthday.
She graduated from high school.
Her birth father and I were ather graduation with our, you
(08:44):
know, my husband and my childrenwent also and we have, you know
, our little family picturestogether, like we always did
over the years and still do tothis day.
She was 18.
So then, in 2014, so I had had aconversation with her mother,
letting her know this is really,I'm scared, like I'm scared.
(09:05):
What if she?
Like all of these 18 years,you've kind of facilitated our
relationship, so you've alwaysbeen the one to kind of give me
permission to see her, and howoften and how long we're
together and where we gotogether and what activities we
do together.
Like, you've always been incharge of that and now you're
not going to be in charge.
(09:26):
And what if she doesn't chooseme?
What if she chooses to not haveme around?
What if she?
You know, what if?
Like, that was very scary and Ishared that with her mom, never
thinking, ever thinking, thatmaybe her mom was thinking the
same thing on the other end.
Looking back now, I think thatprobably was happening for her
as well, but she didn't sharethat with me.
(09:48):
And so, moving forward a coupleof years, so there was an event
that took place and her mom andI are on very different sides of
the table, or whatever thesaying is I'm never good with
those things Very differentsides of our opinions on how we
feel about certain topics andthings.
And so something had happened,and at this point Hannah was 21
(10:11):
years old and I felt verycomfortable talking to her about
my feelings about things atthis point, and I'm sharing,
doing my parenting, part of mylife with her, and so I felt
very comfortable, even thoughour opinions may have been
different.
I felt comfortable talking toAnna about that.
She was 21.
She wasn't a little kid anymore, and so I shared that with her,
(10:34):
and I guess she had told herparents how I felt, and so I got
a message.
This was like one of the firstreal humdingers I guess for me
is a nice way to say it, but Ihad gotten a message from her
mom basically saying you don'tneed to share your judgments
(10:54):
about Anna's parents with her.
You can feel however you wantto feel about it, but don't
share those feelings with herwithout thoughtful reflection
about how you're going to be ofservice to Anna.
This isn't about you, thisisn't about your choice about
things, so you don't need to berunning your home movie for Anna
.
Well, never until literallyyesterday did I connect that
(11:19):
that home movie had to do withthat 18th birthday video.
I always wondered what shemeant about a home movie, do you
think?
Maybe it's not?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
No, I'm right with you, I, I wow.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, and never until yesterday, and this was
in 2014.
So that was 10 years ago andI'm just now connecting so that
was 10 years ago and I'm justnow connecting that that was
about the home.
So that's when I startedrealizing, oh, all of these
things, that all this disconnectI've been feeling since she
turned 18, it's real.
Like that is real, and I wasshocked by that.
(11:55):
Like she had never said notthat she'd never said anything
that hurt me before, but not tothat oomph that really put a big
wedge between us.
At that point, my havingdifferent thoughts and opinions
about topics was not okay withher.
Like it was not okay.
There were times that we hadconversations where she would
(12:16):
tell me can you please call herback and tell her that's not how
you felt.
Tell her you changed your mindand this is what you think, and
I'm like, no, not going to dothat, that's not going to happen
.
A few years after that, she wasreally rebelling in life in
general, just really making baddecisions, bad decisions, bad
decisions, and so there were alot of times that her mom and I
(12:38):
were on the same page about howwe felt about those things, and
we would we would carefullydiscuss them.
I was always very careful tonot say anything negative about
Anna, though I would.
I would just say, yeah, I'mdisappointed that that was what
she chose, but you know, she'sgot to learn, she's got to.
Sometimes you, you got to failin order to figure it out.
So we just got to let her failsometimes.
(13:00):
Well, she was never okay withthat.
She was always.
You know, before the pen wouldhit the floor, you know her mom
would do 15 flips and catch thatpen, and so that was not
something that she was okay with.
But a few years later, I hadeven gotten a message for me to
(13:21):
call and let Anna know, or shewas upset with me because I had
implied that she had put Annadown, that she had said
something negative to her andthat that would be a real
disservice to Anna for me to besaying something negative about
her mom and that I shouldn'timply that for me to be saying
something negative about her momand that I shouldn't imply that
.
And it's sad because I even,like, responded like oh no, I
(13:43):
wasn't saying that I'm herparent and I said I never said
that I was a perfect parent.
I was just telling you myfeelings.
I'm not her parent either,which I definitely did my fair
share, by the way.
I'm her birth mother.
We are just looking at thingsdifferently.
That's just a fact.
We've had different lifeexperiences, so we are reacting
from those experiences andparenting from those.
(14:05):
That is just how it is.
I'm sorry if that upsets you.
Well, you implied that Anna hadbeen put down and had been made
to feel less than, and that youwould indeed never do that.
I presume that you were talkingabout your never having done
that with your children.
That's unfortunate for Anna,because she does just keep
(14:25):
finding new ways to not beresponsible.
So Anna had had a really badday at work and she didn't want
to deal with the reactions fromher parents, or she didn't wear
the right thing to work orsomething.
And they sent her home and shecame to my.
She had gone to my house andshe was asking me did you know
that she was at my, at yourhouse?
And I said, no, I didn't knowshe was at my house, but she's
(14:46):
always welcome to come to myhouse and I oh well, aren't you
the perfect?
I would.
You know I'm not going to judgeher, whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Let's pause for just one minute.
We're going to go back just alittle bit.
You've unpacked a lot and Ithink we can pull a couple of
nuggets out.
There was a distinct shift inyour story in the first few
minutes here of this episode,where there was kumbaya, my
words, the first 18 years, andthen a cliff almost.
(15:16):
And when I'm listening to younow, you're reading some of the
dialogue from 18 to.
It looks like about 20, 21, 22,23.
That had to have been anextremely interesting time for
Anna as well.
That mark of 18 years probablymeans something different for
(15:41):
adoptees and each adoptee thanit might have meant for you or
even for the adopted parents.
I'm going to apply my ownexperience At 18, that is when I
knew there were differentoptions.
Now I might not have beenmature enough to exercise those
(16:03):
options, but I knew they existed.
Also, I'm reflecting on myselfat 18.
I certainly wasn't ready to tryto navigate the emotional mind
field of two other adults, whichis kind of what's coming across
right now.
What I'm finding even moreinteresting and it colors my
(16:27):
perspective on the adoptedparent is when the narrative
changed and she was no longerable to control every aspect.
And I'm also wondering inreflection, jenny, if your
behavior changed, Because priorto that birthday you were kind
(16:49):
of toe on the line.
I hardly doubt your opinionsjust formed on day number two,
post-18 birthday, but you justweren't expressing them.
So your behavior changes,anna's behavior changes.
Adopt-e a parent behaviorchanges and everybody's trying
to navigate this new, new.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes, yes, definitely, and I know that some of the
topics of differences werethings that they definitely knew
about me because I had sharedthat.
I'd shared certain things withthem when I met them, just about
myself and my feelings andthoughts about things.
I was blindsided by not knowingthe differences.
(17:34):
I guess on the other side ofthat, that was a real shock to
me and so I definitely wasreacting from that.
And let's not forget also thatat this point I had four other
children.
I was a true mom, I was aparent and had been parenting.
(17:54):
And was I parenting Anne on aday-to-day basis?
No, I definitely wasn't.
But she knew me.
Like we didn't have a lot Imean, there's a lot of the
things that you know.
She knew my personality, sheknew what I liked, she knew what
made me laugh, she knew howsimilar we were.
It wasn't like I had come intoher life in a reunion sense,
(18:16):
where she just suddenly met herbirth mother and I was just
pretending to be her parent,like I had been parenting Anna
on and off in my own sort of wayover the years.
And so she I definitely.
You know she and I argued, sheand I had disagreements and you
know I told Anna, no, it wasn'tlike it was.
(18:36):
Everything was always yes.
You know, I shared those thingswith her.
So it just had never come outthat way.
And prior to this we had a veryrespectful relationship and she,
I thought, enjoyed sharing thethings that were similar to her
and I, like she would share withme.
Your daughter did this, yourdaughter did that.
(18:58):
Look what your daughter didtoday.
She would say things like youknow, our teenage daughter is
acting like our baby.
You know we saw Jenny todaywhen Anna was doing this, like
she would share those thingswith me in an endearing, kind
way.
So it was never didn't come tome that I was ever a threat to
(19:22):
any part of her parenting upuntil this point.
And now it was starting to comeout that my opinions, my
thoughts, who I was, was now athreat to who she is, and it was
the first I was really seeingthat and I think I was really
kind of rebelling against it, Iguess in my own way.
And I also want to say that Iknow I appreciate you sharing
(19:45):
how you feel about those thingsand I by no means am trying to
say like I'm the perfect personand I've handled all of these
things exactly as I should have,because I'm sure that in
another 18 years I'll look backat the things I did today and be
like you're such a dumb, youknow idiot doing that.
So I do.
(20:07):
I do recognize that I for suremade my own fair share of
mistakes, and I think the sadpart about it is that it's the
conversation is completely cutoff, like there is just no
digging through thisrespectfully together anymore,
which is very sad yeah, my keytakeaway is the turning point
(20:28):
may have been on all sidespretty equally.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I listen to all of the you know dialogue and what
I'm hearing from you as well.
You did toe a a line.
Do you think you did thatbecause you were fearful of
being cut off, even though youdid share your perspectives and
your opinions?
I'm wondering if they were alittle bit softened.
18 comes, you're no longer assoft as you were.
(20:54):
Do you think that had any playhere?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I mean, I don't know, I don't.
I think that maybe in my mind Ithought that when she turned 18
, I mean, like the whole likenarrative of I'm the birth
mother would go away, kind ofthing.
And I still struggle with thateven now, like now that she's 32
(21:23):
years old, or almost 32 yearsold I'm I.
There are definitely thingsthat I think is there that are
unfair of me.
I do think they're unfair of methat they bother me, but they
do bother me.
So I don't want to pretend thatthey don't bother me, because
that would be dishonest.
And I think the thing that Ireally want to more than
(21:44):
anything, display or try tofigure out with this whole
adoption everything is the truthin all of it, and so I think it
would be dishonest of me to say, like I cannot stand, that she
calls me Jenny, but it neverbothered me for 18 years.
It never bothered me that shecalled me Jenny.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, that's very interesting because I would
offer up this to you as well.
When I met my birth mother, itwas emotional, it was awkward.
As more time went on it becamea little bit more awkward, and
the two things that made meconsistently uncomfortable as
the adoptee.
(22:25):
She would introduce me as herdaughter, as if she had raised
me, and she would tell me sheloved me.
Keep in mind, I did not meether until I was trying to count
now late 40s, and I didn't havethat emotional love connection
(22:45):
to her, and it upset her.
It would upset her if I didn'trespond with I love you too.
Now, that doesn't mean I didn'thave a lot of empathy or that I
didn't care about her or that Ididn't want the best for her.
I just didn't know her in thatcontext.
(23:06):
And so I'm wondering here too.
Another takeaway is you haveall of this going on and you
don't like the term birth mother, but age didn't change that
fact, right?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
right?
Yeah, definitely I mean, and,like I said, I know, I know that
it's not and I don't.
I have shared it with Annabefore, but I'm not like stuck
on it, I'm not like trying tomake her call me mom or anything
.
I've just I have shared withher how I feel about it and I
just I've just let it go.
(23:47):
You know, I I know that I justneed to let that go because it's
not her problem, it's not herissue.
She didn't ask for any of this.
She didn't ask for any of it,so it isn't her burden to carry.
You know, it's just something Ihave to deal.
It's just another one of themany things that I have to deal
with because of the decisionthat I made for her life.
(24:09):
And I do get that.
But it would be dishonest of meto not share that.
It does bother me.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, and I think that it's important for
listeners to hear that those arethings that bother you as well.
The context is different.
The context is drasticallydifferent.
You're resonating.
I am a birth parent.
You're resonating.
I helped for 18 years.
I was deeply involved.
It was all good.
Then we have this like flipswitching birth date Somewhere
(24:37):
in here.
Everybody had a differentcontext for that.
Now here we are another, youknow, almost 18 years later, and
the perspective is justgrounding and very interesting.
I know it's hard, it's hard onall angles, and so we're looking
at this from that, you know,from that lens that says this is
(24:58):
how the birth mother feels.
We're also, you know, you and I, looking at it from the lens of
me saying, yeah, and this ishow the adoptee might feel,
regardless of age.
It's very intriguing.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I love this part of our conversation for that reason
, because here we disagree it'sokay.
It's okay that we disagree.
I think that's always like mybig go-to thing Like I'm not
looking to agree with everyoneon how they feel, but we do need
to allow the other person tohave their own feelings.
(25:51):
And whatever it is that'shappening as long as the
conversation is continuing, isthat's happening, like we, if as
long as the conversation iscontinuing, it's good.
It's when you decide, okay,we're going to cut this off.
I disagree with what you sayadoptive mother or birth mother
or adoptee Like that's whenwe're, when we're pointing
fingers at each other instead oflooking within.
(26:12):
I feel like that's where itreally.
You know, the conversationstops and then nothing changes.
And I think that a big thingfor me is that we really need to
listen to each other, like wereally really do, like all of us
need to.
And most importantly number one, most important is we need to
listen to the adopted person'sperspective, because they have
(26:38):
never had any decisionwhatsoever and they deserve to
know the truth.
And if I could say anything tobirth mothers like all birth
mothers, every birth motherlistening and I hope that lots
of birth mothers listen, is thatwe have to.
We have to be able to listen,we have to be able to accept
(27:00):
what is being said regardless,and to know that, regardless of
where we got where we are today,that our children deserve the
absolute truth.
And so when I hear any adoptedperson and say, yeah, I met my
birth mother and she cut me offand she didn't ever tell any of
her other people, or okay, likeeveryone has to go through their
(27:25):
things, but we have to behonest.
Whether it was that you endedup pregnant because of a rape,
whatever the reason might be,they deserve to know the truth
of how they came to be and whothey are.
Like the truth and they candeal with it.
We're adults.
We can deal with hard things.
We all have dealt with hardthings.
(27:47):
We will continue for the restof our lives to deal with hard
things, but there is nothingharder than trying to figure out
things that are not being toldto us, and we always make it way
worse than it usually is anyway.
And so a place that we knowthat is important to hear and
for people to know is that wehave to be honest.
(28:10):
Even if it's hard, we have tobe honest.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I agree there's a reciprocal of that as well,
which is each person in theconversation, regardless of
their role, because it could bean adjunct support person, it
could be social work, it couldbe, you know, the person trying
to navigate new informationabout themselves.
(28:33):
It could be the person sharingreally hard information.
The point I believe that you'rereally trying to get to is we
just all have to listen to oneanother.
I've heard you say so far inour conversation during this
time period and you're going tocontinue on a little bit more
with some of the challenges youwould say you weren't always
(28:54):
behaving in the best interest ofthe big circle either, because
we're humans and it's emotionaland it's a lot all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Oh yeah, I mean I watch myself sometimes become
literally like a 12-year-old kidthrowing a temper tantrum.
I mean it's so ridiculous.
And I just look at myself andI've got to like pull myself out
of it.
I will like text the mostimmature thing and then I'm like
, do not hit, send, you've gotto delete that whole thing, you
(29:27):
know.
But I mean, luckily my husbandGod bless him is my sounding
board and so I can go to himwith anything and I don't know
how he still survives withhaving me as his wife sometimes,
but by golly he does it.
He'll take it all for me.
I mean, he's such a trooper.
I put him through such anemotional roller coaster, but he
(29:49):
gets all of those feelings andI am so blessed to have him.
But yeah, I mean it is hard andlike you were talking earlier
about all of the things thathave happened in between, all of
these calls that you and I havehad with each other and
continuously having panicattacks in the middle of the
night, it's happening, I'mwaking up in the middle of the
night.
I've had to teach myself how tobreathe.
(30:11):
I've been doing this in themiddle of the night to calm
myself because I will wake upwith my blood boiling and my
body shaking and I've beenhaving a lot of yeah.
I mean it's been interestingtoo.
I think it's been good, I thinkthis has been good for me to go
through through, but it's alsoreally, really hard, because
(30:38):
sometimes the truth in all ofthis stuff is it's hard to talk
about.
Do my feelings matter to anyone?
Does anyone care, really careabout the birth mother and what
they experience?
I feel like I have really dugdeep into finding out how it
feels to be the adoptee, and Ifeel like I have dug really deep
(30:58):
into learning about what it'slike to be an adopted parent and
what they go through and theloss of not being able to carry
your own child.
I've really done a lot of workwith that.
I really have, and so I justthink, does, does?
Does anybody else care?
Like, does her mom care aboutwhat I might be going through?
(31:18):
Does Anna care what I might begoing through?
Or is that wrong of me to evenwonder my reaction to your
question is divided.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
My first reaction is are you asking do the people
that are closest to you, and inthis with you, more specifically
Anna and the adoptive parents,care?
They're the only ones that aregoing to be able to answer that
there's, you know, and I don'tknow what signal you would be
(31:47):
looking for from them to knowthat they care.
Think about that for a littlebit.
What would be that signal?
You guys are still engaged in arelationship, so something
tells me it's not as fatalistic,detrimental as it may feel
Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt,right?
Clearly it still hurts, or wewouldn't be talking about it.
(32:11):
The second part where I'mdivided is around the
conversation more globallywithin the community.
I would offer this up.
No, not everyone's going tocare, just like not everyone
cares what an adoptive parenthas to say.
Not everyone cares about whatan adoptee has to say.
(32:33):
Those are just facts.
It's common.
But I do believe with all myheart, there is enough in the
community broad brush term wherethere is care, right, there's
enough desire to have theseconversations.
Or you and I wouldn't betalking.
There's enough desire to shareand educate, or there wouldn't
(32:57):
have been events this year,right?
So, reflecting on what you'vejust said, take out the hurt
component Deep down.
You know people do care whatbirth mothers, and fathers for
that matter, have to say.
Is there a path out of the hurt?
I hope so.
(33:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, that's a tough question.
I didn't think we were goingthis route today, but I'm really
glad that we did, because it'simportant.
One of the things that I thinkabout is my reaction and how I
get hurt for the really simplestuff.
It rubs me absolutely the wrongway when someone says, oh, how
(33:40):
lucky you are, you were adopted,or I wish I had been adopted.
I don't see that side of thecoin.
The reason I don't see thatside of the coin is because I
also don't understand what woulddrive someone to say that.
I'm sure it's a lot ofchallenges in life where the
perception is to have been givenan opportunity to do something
(34:01):
different, not understanding itwasn't an opportunity given, it
was imposed upon.
Well, let's get us a little bitback on track.
So you've been working throughthis post-18th birthday for
several years.
Now You're about to celebrateanother birthday with Anna.
Are you navigating in a placeof friction between all three?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
of you.
Well, ever since mygranddaughter has been born, her
mom doesn't talk to me at allanymore.
She's blocked me completelyfrom any contact whatsoever.
When my granddaughter was born,during this pandemic, there was
a lot again that happened thedifferences between who's really
(34:44):
in charge of life, you know,for this little person, and so I
was very respectful of mydaughter's, whatever her kind of
rules were for the house.
So you know, even during that,I would never have put Anna in
that position to choose one overthe other.
I would have made that decisionfor her and not made it
difficult whatsoever.
(35:05):
So, anyway, so, but once mygranddaughter was born, I was
going to be staying with Annafor a week or so after the baby
was born and her mom, I guess,wanted, expected me to wear a
mask the entire time, and I wasgoing to be in Anna's house, and
so I asked Anna how she feltabout it and she was like you
don't need to wear a mask.
Anyway, it turned into a bigfight where I was screamed at,
(35:30):
screamed at, and while I washolding the baby, her mom was
yelling at me about not wearinga mask and what a terrible
person I was and that she wouldnever treat my grandchild that
way.
It was this big power struggle.
I was told to leave the house.
I wasn't allowed to be therebecause technically they own the
(35:51):
house that my daughter lives in, and so it just it became.
It was just disgusting.
I did leave and I'm, you know,a grown adult, like 48 year old
woman it was.
It felt so strange to me to betreated like that.
I really just cared about likemaking sure that Anna was
comfortable and making sure Annawas happy, and you know, and it
(36:12):
has been that kind of strugglesince then.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
What an interesting perspective at this point, but
more importantly, as you weresaying that, what was going
through my mind is there notenough room in the world for
everyone?
What is ultimately the powerstruggle here?
Wouldn't you want kids of anyage adults, humans, I mean in
(36:42):
that tiered order to just feelabsolutely loved, with no
conditions, no labels, no drama?
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I don't get that and I think that is for me the
difficult place, because I donot ever want to put Anna in a
place where she has to feel likeshe has to choose.
I never want that for her andyou know, ultimately it's just,
it's hard because I do love hermom and I know it doesn't
(37:15):
probably sound like that rightnow hearing what I'm having to
say, but I really do love her.
I am super thankful foreverything that she gave me the
opportunity to do.
I know that most open adoptionsclose very quickly and she did
not do that and I have very muchrecognized her.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I have thanked her for that that I realized that
she could have at any point donethat and she never did so
knowing that this is anextremely complex topic and we
have spent three conversationsaround it, what is it that you
think would be the one, two,three takeaways from all three
(37:58):
of these episodes that you wouldlike the listeners to leave
with?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
No matter where you are and your thoughts about
adoption.
I think that it's really reallyimportant that we all listen to
each other really, reallyimportant that we all listen to
each other.
I think that it's extremelyimportant to, most importantly,
to listen to adoptees and totheir experiences and to their
stories, to allow them to speaktheir truth and not try to stop
(38:29):
them from feeling how they'refeeling.
I think it is extremelyimportant to have your voice and
to speak your thoughts, and ifthe people around you aren't
willing to listen to that, keeplooking, because there are
people that will.
I think the truth sets us free.
The truth is so important inthat every single person that's
(38:50):
walking on the face of thisearth deserves to know what
their truth is and deserves toknow everything about themselves
, and they shouldn't have to paytons and tons of money to find
it.
And I would say thing that Iwould love for listeners to hear
is that I will, for the rest ofmy life as a birth mother.
(39:14):
I will forever grieve not beingable to parent my child, and if
I had one thing that I wouldchange in my life if I could go
back, I would, 1 million percent, have never, ever, ever signed
(39:34):
a paper to give a gift toanother person, and I lived my
entire life, every single day,trying to be better, was shaped
by that decision.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
That's very special.
I think that I will close uswith this.
That's entire life, so thatdecision should never be taken
(40:24):
lightly.
We know that, we've been livingit, and there is not one thing
that we can say that will lessenhow impactful that statement is
to ourselves and how we feelabout it, how I feel about it as
I say it, how you feel about itas you hear it, and how others
feel about it when they listen.
(40:45):
It is paramount to understand.
One decision shapes many lives,no different than other
decisions in your life, but thisis just one of those that it's
just so hard to put tangiblethings around it.
I am so thankful you've beenwilling to come on the show and
(41:06):
to be raw and real about theexperience from your lens, and
also to be willing to hear whatI've had to say encounter to
some of your feelings, and sothose are precious moments that
I just really am thankful tohave had with you, I feel the
(41:27):
exact same way I adore you, andI know that it may I'm not
expecting you to say it back tome, but I do love you.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I really do.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, knowing how I feel about that statement, that
is a very, very kind thing tosay, and I have very strong
emotions towards you as well,and so I think we're going to
call it a day, and I'm lookingforward to when we move on in a
few months and maybe come backaround and say what have we
(41:57):
learned from this experience orhear from others.
So hit us up and let us knowwhat you've learned from this
dialogue and this three episodeseries.
It has been absolutelyenlightening, so thank you again
.
Thank you, lisa.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
(42:20):
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!