January 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Renowned workplace culture expert Shelia Matthews reveals the secrets to cultivating vibrant and thriving business environments in our latest episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur Podcast. Shelia shares her remarkable journey from the realm of learning and development to becoming a pivotal figure in hiring and culture building. Discover how Shelia assesses knowledge, skills, and abilities before delving into cultural fit, ensuring that potential hires align with company values and contribute to sustained growth.
Crafting effective job descriptions and attracting top talent are often stumbling blocks for entrepreneurs, and Shelia offers fresh insights into overcoming these challenges. Rather than relying solely on traditional benefits, she advocates for creative solutions like stipends and highlights the power of a strong workplace culture in attracting and retaining high-quality candidates. Smaller businesses, in particular, have the unique opportunity to leverage their environments to create a culture that draws in the best talent, setting the stage for long-term success.
Navigating the complexities of remote team management is no small feat, and this episode provides actionable strategies to engage and motivate teams from afar. From recognizing achievements to hosting virtual social events, Shelia emphasizes the importance of consistent communication and alignment with company values.
ABOUT SHELIA
Shelia Matthews is a workplace culture expert with a diverse career spanning transportation, manufacturing, and services industries. She's worked for companies like UPS and MetLife, and scaled startups like Acquisition.com. Shelia believes in creating environments where people and businesses thrive, emphasizing the importance of understanding each business to craft a solid culture that translates into profitability. Outside work, Shelia enjoys family time in Atlanta with her husband, two kids, and their Boxer, Ranger. She stays active through gym sessions, travel, and hiking. Shelia holds an MBA from Colorado State University and a bachelor's in psychology from the University of North Florida. Recently, she founded Culture Pro, LLC, helping growing businesses develop effective People and Culture strategies through improved hiring processes, engagement, and communication.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, BrianLoFermento, and today we are
talking about something that weall need to confront along our
entrepreneurial growth journeys,and this is something that I
would argue it's one of the mostdifficult things to get right
in business, because it dealswith the most complex aspect of
(00:21):
all of our businesses, and thatis the people.
And today we're talking allabout culture, and we've brought
on someone who just has such anincredible knack and ability
and insights for creating theright culture.
So let me tell you all abouttoday's guest.
Her name is Sheila Matthews.
Sheila is a true champion whenit comes to cultivating vibrant
workplace cultures and making itlook effortless.
(00:42):
Gosh, isn't that what we're alllooking for?
Her secret Mastering the peoplepart and watching everything
else fall into place.
With a career as diverse as apainter's palette, Sheila has
left her mark on a multitude ofindustries spanning
transportation, manufacturingand services, among others.
She's worked for industrygiants like UPS and MetLife, as
well as overseeing the peoplefunction for startups like
(01:04):
Acquisitioncom, where shequickly scaled several small
teams into impressive armies oftalent.
Now, for those of you who arethinking well, my business is
different or my industry isdifferent, or I've got a remote
team.
Sheila has been there and donethat, and so much that she's
going to share with us intoday's episode not only applies
to where you may be in yourexisting business growth, but,
(01:25):
most importantly, it has thateye to the future, of what type
of company you want to build andwhat type of culture you want
to create.
So that's why I'm personallysuper excited to learn from
Sheila today.
I'm not going to say anythingelse.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Sheila Matthews.
All right, Sheila, I'm soexcited that you're here with us
(01:46):
today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
I am so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Heck.
Yes, we are all very excited tolearn from you, especially
because I talked about a littlebit in your bio, but your
diverse set of experiences,sheila, it seems like you worked
in so many differentenvironments.
We're talking business sizes,we're talking types of companies
, kind of the young, fun, agileones like acquisitioncom, as
well as the giants we've allheard of.
(02:14):
So you've got to take us beyondthe bio.
Who's Sheila?
How'd you start doing all thesecool things?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, thank you.
So you know, when I first gotinto people and culture, it was
really through learning anddevelopment.
I had a knack for trainingmaterials, standing up in front
of people and givingpresentations and facilitating,
and I started at L&D and then,interestingly, took like a side
(02:40):
swipe into hiring.
Back in the day when I workedat MetLife, and when they hired
me I was like I don't understandwhy you guys are hiring me.
I've never hired anybody in myentire life before.
And they were like we'll teachyou that part.
You are a good judge ofcharacter and that is more
important than any of the stuffthat we'll teach you.
The stuff that we'll teach you,we'll get you there the rest of
(03:05):
the way.
And I was like, oh, okay, so Ikind of just took a leap of
faith and jumped in and it stuck.
You know, I've I've done a lotof different areas of people and
culture and even HR in mycareer.
Uh, but the hiring piece isreally what.
I've kind of ended updeveloping a name for myself
around.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I love that, especially because, as someone
who, over 16 years of being anentrepreneur, I've hired so many
different people and I knowthat that's really the first
step.
Obviously, they come across ourbusinesses before they ever see
our job postings, but reallyour one-to-one interactions with
them begin through that process.
So, sheila, when we talk abouthiring, what's the scope of what
(03:42):
you assess and what you look at?
Because that's the first stepof really starting our culture
and starting the feelings, theemotions, the culture that we
want to create in our ownbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I love this question.
I could talk about this all day.
Okay, so there's really threebig things, and then there's
like an unspoken fourth that youknow I'm being a little
sarcastic, you'll see what Imean.
But knowledge, skills andabilities those are the three
big things.
What happens sometimes whenentrepreneurs start their hiring
journey is they start withculture and trust.
(04:15):
Don't get me wrong.
Trust is super important, butwhat happens when you're only
looking through culture andtrust is that you're not really
scrubbing whether they have theknowledge, the skills, the
experience to do the thing thatyou're hiring them to do.
And so whether I'm I've helpedsomeone with their very first
hire, which I would argue isalways the most important one,
(04:37):
right?
Or you know, like we're innumber 5 000 I'm always looking
for first do they have thethings that I need?
I don't want to have to hiresomeone that I have to teach
everything to.
I want them to come in with avery solid foundation of the
thing that I'm hiring them to dofor me.
Then I start looking at culturefit and personality fit, and to
(05:00):
me one isn't more importantthan the other.
You have to have both sides ofit in excess, especially when
you're small and growing.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, hearing you talk about this, sheila, I
always think to myself and Iespecially think about this
within the context of marketingis how simple these things sound
when we tune into a podcastepisode or we watch a YouTube
video.
But, of course, the actualpracticality of it is extremely
difficult to get right, and somy question to you we're going
to get into this really early onin our conversation today is
how do we assess these things?
(05:30):
You talk about the knowledge,the skills, the abilities.
How do we figure out Becauseit's easy for people to say, oh
yeah, I know how to use thistool and that tool and to do
those processes how do weactually assess if they're
accurate in their own assessmentof themselves?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Oh, actually assess if they're accurate in their own
assessment of themselves.
Oh my goodness, yeah, it doesget a little tricky, admittedly,
I sometimes forget.
I've been doing this for areally long time and so, but,
but here's.
Here's what I would recommend.
Number one if you've neverwritten a job description before
, don't let this hire be thefirst time that you try it.
If you need someone to help youwith marketing, hire be the
first time that you try it.
(06:05):
If you need someone to help youwith marketing, go on Indeed and
LinkedIn and find an existingmarketing director or marketing
assistant or marketing managerjob description and work from
that.
You don't necessarily want tojust lift it and use it as is,
but use that to help you formthe requirements and the skills.
Read several of them.
Do the research.
You have to put the work in inthe beginning when you're when
(06:27):
you're not a hiring professional, to figure out is the thing I
need one what the market callsit, or am I calling it something
weird?
Two is it what I think it is?
I've had people tell me I needa marketing person, I need a
marketing person, and then, whenthey start telling me the
specific tasks they want thatperson to do I'm like that's a
(06:47):
sales manager.
I don't, where did you getmarketing from?
I don't understand, like, howdid?
How did you get there?
And they're like, oh, I guess Ijust thought because it had to
do with leads, you know.
And I'm like, okay, so firstPut in the research.
You can use chat GPT.
Oh my gosh, it's such awonderful tool for just cranking
out a job description templateto get you started in an area.
(07:08):
And then the next step is toreally talk to a couple of
people who you think is doingthe job you need.
So it's not because you're just.
I will go and find people onLinkedIn who are doing what I
(07:28):
think that job is and I'll justask them to take a 15 minute
call with me.
Like, hey, I'm working in thisspace.
I've never filled a role.
It sounds like you're doingsome of this job, but you might
happen on a call and justtelling me a little bit about
what you do.
I have yet to have anyone tellme no, it's such a low point of
entry.
And then sometimes that persondoes turn into a candidate.
(07:48):
I mean, right, like you neverknow, sometimes you get lucky.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, sheila, I love that.
I've actually never heard thatadvice before.
But I'll tell you what.
As a podcast host, I'm biasedin the belief that all
conversations are goodconversation.
It's it's.
It's so cool to hear how youapply that to your own industry,
because you're not talkingabout interviewing these people
for the sake of potentiallyhiring them.
You're talking aboutinterviewing them for the sake
of you yourself, the businessowner or the hiring manager,
(08:13):
learning more about that role inother organizations, which that
intelligence is only going tobenefit all of our businesses.
And, as you said, a naturalby-product is heck.
It might work out with thatperson and they might be the
ideal candidate.
So I really love those insights.
I'm going to keep followingthis process with you.
And what's the interview looklike from there?
Because there are a lot of waysto do interviews, some of them
(08:33):
tricky, some of them clever, butI'd love to hear the Sheila
Matthews approach.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
So for me one, I want as manypeople to interview this person
as reasonable, so that does notmean 6000 or six interviews, but
you think about every.
Every conversation should allowyou to become more educated on
the person you're considering.
So what that looks like is evenin the screening call, and a
(08:59):
lot of candidates will be like,oh well, they're just the
recruiter or they're just thescreener, so I don't really have
to worry about showing up forthat.
And that's a mistake, becauseeven at that very first contact
we are assessing and evaluatingwhether this person is a fit,
whether they're professional,whether they showed up prepared
or not.
And that counts against a lotof people.
(09:19):
When they show up in theirworkout clothes and they're like
, uh, is it okay if I take thisfrom my car?
I'm coming from the gym?
It's like, oh, oh, yeah, I, youknow, like I, I thought you
would have been a little moreprepared, you know, um, but
we're, we're looking for highlevel stuff during the screening
call and really like, are theya match for the things that we
said we had to have?
And so there shouldn't be alaundry list of those things.
(09:41):
If you use tools like 8020,like the Pareto tool.
80% of someone's job can beboiled down into like four or
five very key requirements, andso you got to figure out what
those are and then check forthat on their resume and during
the screening call.
If it's a yes and they don'tseem correct you know
(10:02):
unprofessional or some otherthing that maybe would rub you
the wrong way then you move themto the next call.
I like to have a separateinterview for technical versus
culture, and those are twodifferent people that are doing
that.
But at the beginning I'mexplaining that to the candidate
to say, listen, I want you tomeet three different people in
this company.
You'll meet myself, therecruiter, the screener, whoever
(10:24):
that person is.
You will meet the hiringmanager that's who usually does
the technical interview.
And then I want you tointerview with someone else in
the company during the step thatwe call the culture interview,
where we will do our best toadequately and accurately
represent ourselves so you knowwhat it's like to work here.
But then also we're going to belearning what you're looking
(10:46):
for in a position and a job andeven in a team in an environment
, to see if this is a good fit,and we use our core values to
help us determine that, so thatit's not like, oh, she seemed
fun, let's hire her.
It's like did she give examplesand did she demonstrate a
natural alignment to the thingsthat we have decided are
(11:07):
important at our company?
You know whether that is, youknow, excellence over ego, or
you know like, whatever yourvalues are?
And then the last piece that Iwould share in the technical
interview, I'm kind of over star, I'll be honest, since you
asked for the Sheila version,what I would prefer a hiring
manager do during the technicalinterview is think about the
(11:30):
problems that you want thisperson to solve in your business
.
Are you bringing them in toimprove churn?
Are you bringing them in toincrease lead flow?
What are you hiring them toprimarily do?
And then use those problems inyour business as a basis for the
interview questions.
And so that might soundsomething.
Like you know, right now my topof funnel is struggling.
(11:54):
I'm running ads on these twoplatforms.
My cost of acquisition is here,my CAC's this, my this is that,
and I can tell something'swrong, but I don't have the
expertise to figure out whatthat is.
If you were just stepping intothis business, where would you
look for a second and third howwould you help me solve this
problem?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Sheila.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Real life question here in real time in our
conversation today, especiallybecause I so appreciate as well
the fact that you called out the80-20 principle.
And I'm going to ask you tothrow a little bit of shade here
, sheila, because what I thinksomething that I've come to
value even more the older that Iget, the more experience that I
get, the more mature I get asan entrepreneur is that people
like you experts in your field,subject matter experts you're
(12:38):
really good at deciphering thestuff that matters versus the
stuff that doesn't, and so whenI was 20 years old and starting
my first business and I waslearning about marketing,
everything mattered to me.
I thought I had to be on everyplatform.
I'm going to blame Gary Vee forall of that.
I thought I had to be literallyeverywhere.
But sure, the older I get, themore I realize, gosh, really,
you could just be so good at sofew things, and that's what
(13:00):
makes all the difference.
So the shade I'm going to askyou to throw is what are some of
those things that companiestypically think matter when it
comes to hires and I'll throw myown personal bias in here of
you know the, you need five toseven years of experience and
you need a college degree andall of these things.
That's just one example from myend.
Sheila, give me yourperspective there.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Oh my gosh, it's absolutely thinking.
You have to list every freakingfeasible possible task.
And you know what I like?
I really can't stand these fivepage job descriptions or even
three page job descriptionswhere we're trying to account
for every little thing and thenthe hiring manager comes into
this engagement with veryunrealistic expectations,
(13:43):
because now they expect that therecruiter is going to check for
30 different types of work andtasks and make sure this
candidate has done every singleone of them.
And you know like it's, it'snot realistic, it's not a good
use of anyone's time.
And then I would also submityou're not really setting the
employee uh up, or the personthat you're hiring up for a good
(14:04):
experience, like who wants totake a job where they learn
nothing new.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, why would what's in itfor you at that point?
Yes, you're going to get paid,but part of part of the
excitement and the kind ofgrowth piece of taking on a new
role is that there are unknown,unlearned pieces of that, and,
and so that's that's kind of myway in on it um, the other piece
(14:27):
I think is um and this is toughbecause again it is, it is a
skill piece.
But you know you, a lot of timessometimes hiring managers come
into the process and theyhaven't really done the
self-reflect, they have notreally spent time and research
to figure out the thing thatthey want and need, and that
wastes a lot of time and a lotof candidate time when you're
(14:50):
trying to find your perfectperson.
And so to me, like those arethe two egregious things is that
companies don't incentivizehiring managers to prepare to
hire and then on the other side,you know like we're just
throwing everything in thekitchen sink into the job
description and it doesn't allowus to really pull and dig into
(15:10):
the things that matter most.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, sheila, I kind of want to flip this
conversation on its head alittle bit, because hearing you
talk about these things you talkabout, you know it's exciting
to hire someone into a new role,not just because they're
getting paid.
That's one of the reasons,though.
Of course, we all love gettingpaid, but I think that it calls
out part of our obligation andour responsibilities on the
hiring side, as business owners,as entrepreneurs, to also
(15:34):
reflect on the fact that we needto provide value as well,
beyond just the fact that we payother people.
And so I want to ask you this,because I obviously talk to a
lot of entrepreneurs andbusiness owners in my line of
work, and I keep hearing thisphrase.
For the past two years, I'veheard people say it's hard to
find good help, and I'm reallythrilled because some of the
best members of my team havebeen coming on board in the past
(15:56):
few years.
So, sheila, what can we, asbusiness owners, do to create a
position where it's easy to findgood help?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I know that that statement is said with the best
of intentions, but you know theyare out there with the best of
intentions, but you know theyare out there.
Oh my gosh, there are so manyamazing people out there looking
for their next opportunity.
Um, but you have to show upprepared for it and then, um, I
think I'll take this opportunityto just talk about a limiting
(16:25):
belief that I've worked throughwith a lot of entrepreneurs
about, which is like I don'toffer benefits, I can't offer
healthcare, therefore I can'tfind someone good, and so to me,
that is between your ears, youknow, like you're telling
yourself that, and even if youdon't have, maybe you don't
offer group benefits.
Yet that's actually not a bigdeal.
(16:46):
You can offer a stipend ormoney towards someone purchasing
their healthcare.
You can offer a stipend ormoney towards someone purchasing
their health care.
So sometimes you just getcreative about the things that
you can offer in order to bemore competitive.
If you think that is a concernfor you, but after hiring
hundreds of people, probablyactually thousands of people, I
(17:06):
will tell you benefits matter,but culture matters more.
You benefits matter, butculture matters more.
The environment in which youallow someone to come in and
play a part of in your businessmatters more than the extra
spliffs and you know cash andprizes that you give them.
You have to pay market.
You know like to me, that istable stakes.
You should be willing to pay ator above market if you want
(17:29):
someone amazing because that'swhat they will get anywhere else
.
But really your differentiatorand it's so much easier, by the
way, for smaller businessesbecause you have less people to
corral your differentiator is tocreate an amazing environment
for them to come and be a partof.
Lean into the growth aspect,lean into you know the scale,
(17:52):
lean into all the things thatyou love about coming in every
day and doing that, and thoseare the people that you want to
attract into your business.
If you're under 5 million rightnow.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, sheila, I'll tell you what you just
introduced, that big word that Ipromised at the top of today's
episode of culture.
We're going to talk aboutculture now, and I'm so excited
for this part of theconversation because it's this
huge, intangible thing, and Iwould argue that it's easy to
see the extremes when we saw, Ithink back to the early two
thousands, the, the heydays ofthe Googles of the world, where
(18:23):
they had all these fun officeenvironments that had never been
seen anywhere in the workplace.
They really revolutionized thatside of it, and I'm not going
to speak to their current status, because who knows what the
status of all of those, but theydid change the way that work is
done in so many ways and that'swhy we saw the start in the
rise of so many cool techcompanies.
But then also we can feel thosebad environments.
(18:44):
You know, we hear some of thehorror stories of some delivery
drivers for some big onlinee-tailers and they've got some
ugly working conditions.
So, sheila, with that in mind,what's culture?
Because we know it when we seegood or bad culture, but it's so
hard to define and put ourfingers on, especially as
business owners of our own.
We love our businesses.
(19:04):
They're our babies.
But what does that culture looklike, what are the ingredients
that play into it, and wheredoes it manifest itself in our
businesses?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I always, when Ifirst start having this
conversation with entrepreneurs,I tell them that culture is the
way people act.
When you're not around, itseems like, well, wait a minute,
I thought I drove culture.
You do drive culture, but ifyou know, if it's only happening
(19:33):
when you're there, you have toask yourself is it because I'm
creating a punishing environmentand that's why people are doing
it?
How do they act when I, when Iremove myself from the equation?
And good behavior or badbehavior?
That is the culture that isgrowing and taking place in your
business, and so I like to giveexamples to help contextualize
some of this.
So, if you gossip with people inyour business, I hate to.
(19:57):
I'm gonna leave with a negative, sorry, but let's say that you
like to gossip with other peoplein your company.
Well, when you're not around,guess what's happening?
Other people are gossiping,whether you think they should or
not.
You are leading with thatexample and you are setting the
stage that that is an acceptablebehavior in your company and
that becomes part of the culture.
(20:17):
And then sometimes I getquestions like how do I turn
that around if I've mademistakes?
I mean, I'm human too, I'mstill learning and growing and
I'm like I get it.
Then you have to address whatyou've done that was wrong.
You have to commit to changingyour own behavior and then
explain that you would likeeveryone and you expect everyone
to follow suit, and then youhave to follow through on that.
(20:39):
So it's like hey, I know I'vegauged, I've engaged in harmful
gossip before.
I'm not proud of that.
I'm also learning and growing,but I this isn't the, this isn't
what I want for our business.
I'm building this business sothat all of us have an amazing
place to work, and what I'verealized is that behavior can't
be a part of it if I really wantpeople to feel safe and love
being here.
(20:59):
So I'm committing to all of youthat I'm not going to do that
anymore and I'm going to askthat you guys come along with me
on that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, Sheila, I want to ask you this question because
I think you have such a uniquevantage point in what I'm going
to ask you, and that is when youtalk about companies of
different sizes.
And I love the fact that youinterjected into the
conversation about what if aculture is already established,
how can we start switching that?
I always I love that analogy ofdropping food coloring into a
swimming pool.
You know, if we drop it into aglass of water, it's going to
(21:29):
make a big difference to thecolor of our water.
If we drop it into a swimmingpool, it's going to take a lot
of drops of water to make anysort of difference.
And the same is true when itcomes to culture.
Is that at UPS, if UPS hired metoday, sure, I can have a local
difference on my immediatecoworkers, but I'm not going to
radically change as a newemployee, I'm not going to
radically change the culture ofUPS.
However, on the startup levelwhich you're well versed there
(21:52):
as well, you've worked in somany cool environments it does
make a big difference.
Every hire makes a massivedifference.
So my question to you really isat that smaller level, for the
startups, for the rapidlygrowing companies, do we hire
for culture?
Do we let the hires help shapeour culture?
What's the chicken or the egghere, and how do we solve that?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I think that you're looking for your
alignment to values first andforemost and that will ensure
that they are a culture fit orit will help to ensure right,
because I mean, at the end ofthe day, no one gets hiring
right 100% of the time, evensuper seasoned people.
So also, if you screw it up,let them go, forgive yourself.
You know, learn from it andmove on.
(22:35):
But you really want to askyourself what are my company's
values?
If you don't have values, youshould think about having some
like what are the things thatguide the company's behavior
when you're not there?
Those are your values.
I like three, you know three orfour.
You don't need 20.
You know no one's going toremember those and I like to
(22:58):
make them fun and usealliteration so that they're
easy to remember.
Like you know, a couple of thevalues that I run my company
with is make that mess yourmasterpiece.
Excellence over ego.
You know they're kind of catchyand I can easily explain what
they mean to someone if they'renot sure.
And from there, during theculture interview, when I am
hiring someone, I'm asking likedoes this person have a mindset
(23:22):
and a natural proclivity to becontinuously better?
Will they take ownership ofsomething if no one else is
taking ownership of it in orderto move the work forward and to
improve it.
Will this person be coachable?
Do I if they make a mistake?
Are they?
Will we all be walking oneggshells?
(23:44):
Will we be able to talk aboutit productively?
Can this person grow from thatexperience?
And so, when you're gettingthose things right, then you
have less to worry about.
But you know, culture is like aplant If you don't water it
it'll die, you know.
So, even though you may get itright during the interview, then
you have to continually dothings to reinforce and
(24:06):
encourage those behaviors, toensure that each person does
positively impact the culture.
And here's the thing Ifsomebody doesn't, then it's
really.
You get to align the problemback to the value and say, hey,
you know, one of our values hereis excellence over ego.
And I felt last week in thatmeeting you got a little
(24:29):
defensive and it kind of shutdown the conversation so that we
could figure out how to fix theissue that happened and move it
forward.
What do you think?
And so it's being able to takethe things that you said were
really important, but then holdpeople accountable to those.
And if they're not a culturefit because they're not aligning
to the values, then that's thegrounds that you would use to
(24:51):
then remove that person from theteam.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yes, sheila, I'm loving these insights from you
here today.
I want to go down that pathbecause it is a sensitive topic
about what happens when we don'tget it right, and even on the
positive side of that is that we.
It's not only a sensitive topicwith regards sometimes we have
to let people go, but it alsopoints out that we have an
obligation to keep that goodnessand that culture rolling.
(25:14):
And so, along those lines, whatdoes that look like?
Once we've onboarded someone,how do we create the culture?
Because I've been in all of mycollege internships, I've been
the part of quite a fewcompanies that try to do that,
and they do it through, you know, repeating mantras and phrases
that all of us employees andinterns were sitting there going
gosh, we really have to do thisagain.
(25:37):
So, sheila, what's the real way?
What's the?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
good way to do these things.
I'm not laughing at you, Ipromise, but I have also been
subjugated or subjected to thosethings that it's so
uncomfortable especially whenyou're new right so to me,
especially when you're new rightso to me in a small, growing
business there are.
There are two aspects to methat grow culture most, and one
(26:00):
is just good, old-fashionedcommunication.
I mean, I know it sounds like,but if you have regular all team
meetings, so this is everybodyon the team, I don't care if
there are three people on theteam or in the company, bring
them together.
Use that opportunity to talkabout why do we exist, why is
(26:21):
this company in business, whatis our big picture, ultimate
goal Every week, every two weeks, you should be reinforcing why
are we all here together?
What is our common ground, whatare we working for and how is
it going?
You should be doing shout outsand recognition on those calls
and they're consistent.
These are the calls that neverget canceled.
(26:42):
They don't get bumped becausewe don't have something new to
say.
It's actually the point is torepeat yourself every week on
these calls like mission, vision, strategy, values, shout outs
and recognition, quick update ifI have, a quick update, but if
not, it's not a big deal.
We wrap the call early.
You should be training.
If your company is a little bitbigger, you have managers who
(27:04):
have teams.
You should be training themanagers how to run one on
one-one meetings.
You should be teaching peoplehow to talk about the company
values.
How do they integrate thevalues discussion in their
day-to-day work with their teams.
All of these things are touchpoints that matter.
And then the other big piece tocommunication is that as the
(27:28):
owner, you should be checking inwith everyone.
I can't tell you how much itmeans to a new person when
somewhere in the first week youknow they're in, they've got, of
course, they've got onboardingactivities, they've got all this
training going on.
But somebody just kind of popsup and says hey, I know it's
your first week.
It's been a couple of days, Ijust wanted to check in and see
how things are going.
(27:48):
And then you know like I use asauna for stuff like that or
Trello is.
You know like those are mysecret weapons.
When it comes to checking in, Ihave a task for everybody on
the team.
Every month or so, I change thedate and so that way I can
ensure that I'm taking that fiveto seven minutes to just check
in, not like what are youworking on?
(28:08):
This is not a work call, makeno mistake.
Like I'm coming from, workingis like, essentially, the water
cooler check-in.
You know, like I would have notrun into this person in a break
room because we don't have onein a remote world, but I'm just
sending them a quick note to say"'Hey, I'm thinking of you "'I
know, last time I checked in,"'your mom wasn't feeling good.
"'is she feeling better?
(28:29):
"'how's your dog''.
You know, like it's just thesequick little, like we're human
touch points that make adifference.
And then the other big thing,aside from communication and it
is a form of communication isrecognition.
Say thank you, recognize people.
It doesn't have to be somethingbig.
I think most of us think well,I mean, that seems like such a
(28:52):
silly thing to recognize someonefor, but do it?
Find the good thing thatsomeone did.
And then you start buildingthis culture to invite everyone
else to give recognition toother people.
And to me, if you can startwith recognition and start with
consistent communication, you'relike 80 percent ahead of 80
(29:12):
percent ahead of everybody else.
The other piece, though, is toreinforce what you say you're
going to do and do it, so you dolet the team down.
If you are letting people stayon the team who aren't a values
fit and who aren't a fit withthe business or who aren't doing
their jobs, you're not helpinganyone.
It creates this environment.
(29:33):
Well, that must be okay.
If it's not okay, you have todo the hard thing and talk about
it with them, address it, andif it doesn't change, then you
have to exit that person.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, sheila, I love these real life insights, the
fact that you called out theproverbial water cooler that's
something that all of ourbusinesses were really looking
for in this remote world, and soI know that you've operated in
these environments, and evenwith your own business
(30:17):
no-transcript, with all of thesebig companies doing their
return to office initiatives,and I think it's trash.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You know like we don't teach managers to manage,
so when we move remote, we alsodon't teach them how to manage
differently, because we reallynever taught them to manage to
begin with, and so maybe they'renot getting the results or the
things that they want.
But shame on the company that'son them.
You know like.
So for growing businesses,remote businesses, if you're
(30:49):
never planning on having anoffice, you know you, it's the
same, you're doing the samethings, it just expresses
differently on a remote team.
Now this one's going to beunpopular, I'm going to say it
anyway.
I say in a remote business thatfor certain meetings cameras
are on.
It doesn't mean they're on forevery single meeting or call
(31:11):
ever, but if I'm investing thetime and money to pull the
entire company together for thatfull team meeting or that all
hands meeting, I want to seeeverybody.
I want to see people for that30 minutes.
I want to see how I want to seethem.
You know like I want thecameras on.
People are more engaged at thatpoint and you get more
participation when you can seethem and you can and they can
(31:35):
see you.
So to me, like that is anunpopular one or a controversial
one, but it's an important onefor me.
I also say make time for fun.
So this is the biggest piece.
I think that can one get doneincorrectly, but then two just
doesn't get done at all, and sowhat that looks like is a lot of
(31:55):
us now do everything on ourcomputer.
We're not as social in otherareas of life, and so people
want to get to know theircoworkers, they want to be able
to socialize.
You don't force it, though.
This is not the mandated funcommittee of you know the old
days, but it's like, hey, ifanybody wants to do this, we're
thinking about planning anemployee trivia night on zoom
(32:18):
and it'll be on this date atthis time and it's completely
voluntary, you don't have to doit if you're busy or you don't
want to, but if you'd like to,you know, feel free to join.
We used to use the whiteboardand like have drawing contests
in zoom.
I mean, like it's.
It's silly, you know, but itwas really.
It's less about the activityand more about getting all of us
together where, in aenvironment where we can kind of
(32:39):
laugh and joke with one another.
I would also recommend, ifyou're small, just block out
co-working time, so that iswhere anybody and everybody can
join in.
You can have your camera on oroff and you just sort of
silently work together on thething, work on something that
you're doing, and then I usuallyreserve the last 15 minutes
(33:00):
that if somebody wants to sharewhat they've been working on,
you know, they can talk to therest of the group about it.
Engineering teams, coding teamsdo this.
It's been super productive andhelpful, and so I think, like
entrepreneurs can do this too.
Small companies can be lonelyand so it's nice to just create
these casual times where peoplecan come together and just have
(33:24):
company.
You'd be surprised it takes off.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, sheila, I love that.
I'm definitely going toimplement some of these behind
the scenes here at theentrepreneur to entrepreneur
podcast.
So I appreciate these real lifeinsights and you're giving us
actual strategies that we canimplement.
So it's going to be hard to topall of the great things that
you've shared with us here intoday's episode, but I always
love asking this question at theend, because you're such a
wealth of knowledge and you cananswer this question as the
(33:47):
subject matter expert that youare, or as a fellow entrepreneur
, because I'm going to toot yourhorn for Culture Pro in just a
few minutes.
But before we get there, what'sthat one piece of advice?
Knowing that we're beinglistened to by entrepreneurs and
entrepreneurs all over theworld at all different stages of
their own growth journeys,what's that one thing that you
want to impart on all of ourlisteners here today?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Oh my gosh.
You know, take the risk.
I know that sounds crazy, but alot of people that I talk to
are really asking me forreassurance a lot of times, and
I'll I'll give you the advicethat I have to constantly remind
myself of is just try it.
You know, just try it, you.
You don't need to spendhundreds of 1000s of dollars on
(34:31):
the perfect person.
You know, try just running thecomps and, you know, picking a
number in the middle.
If you don't know what to pay,someone ask them hey, what would
you like to make to feel reallyengaged and be excited to work
here?
You know, like, just ask around, get that knowledge and then
just take the chance.
If it's wrong, you will learnan incredible amount from that
(34:53):
experience.
And if it's right, then youknow you've just built your
confidence up some.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, sheila, I love that advice, and especially
because it fits right in withsome of the things that I want
to publicly very much praise youfor, and that is layered
beneath so much of what wetalked about today.
What makes you different in somany ways, and why we've been so
excited to have you on the show, sheila, is that I know that
you have such a fundamentalunderstanding of business, of
(35:20):
the life of an entrepreneur,because, like I've said a few
times, you are one of us, and sowhat I really admire not only
about the way that you show upand the value and the
experiences that you have is howyou bring this stuff to the
world and what you're doing withyour own company, culture Pro,
which you're going to drop thatlink for listeners in just a
second.
It's incredible to me even theway you show up.
I always say that successleaves clues and your website,
(35:41):
sheila.
What we didn't talk about todayis branding and messaging and
copy, but you're a master of allof those things as well, and
I'm going to chalk some of it upto the fact that you've worked
with incredible companies,you've been a part of incredible
teams and obviously you'resuper brilliant in all of your
own ways as well.
So I love all the stuff thatyou're doing and, with that said
, you've got to drop those linksfor listeners who want to learn
(36:02):
more about you and see the waythat you're practicing what you
preach and growing your ownbusiness.
Where should they go from here?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, you know, you can always find me on LinkedIn.
I know that sounds crazy, but Iam very active on LinkedIn.
I love the community, and thenmy own website is cultureproco.
So, by all means, come out,leave me a message, drop me a
note.
I love meeting people, so I'mnot a big pitch person, even
(36:30):
though I've worked for some verynotable pitch people in
business.
I am more of a relationshipsperson and I would love to take
a call with people and get toknow them.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So yes, listeners, you heard that link right there
from Sheila.
It's cultureproco, super easyto find.
We're also dropping it downbelow in the show notes, as well
as a link to Sheila's personalLinkedIn.
If you want to reach out I'malso going to plug this, sheila,
because you didn't is that youalso have a free guide and a
free resource on your website.
So, listeners, if you want tocontinue your journey into all
of the wisdom and insights thatyou can pick up from Sheila even
(36:58):
before you start working withher, definitely check out that
link.
Just click right on throughfrom the show notes.
It's cultureproco.
No matter where it is thatyou're tuning into today's
episode, you'll find that linkdown below.
So, sheila, on behalf of myselfand all of our listeners
worldwide, thanks so much forcoming on the show today.
Thanks, brian hey, it's Brianhere and thanks for tuning in to
(37:23):
yet another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom.
And I just want to give a shoutout to our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
(37:44):
These are not sponsoredepisodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
(38:05):
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always, every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday
(38:26):
here on the Wantrepreneur toEntrepreneur podcast.
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, BrianLoFermento, and today we are
talking about something that weall need to confront along our
entrepreneurial growth journeys,and this is something that I
would argue it's one of the mostdifficult things to get right
in business, because it dealswith the most complex aspect of
(00:21):
all of our businesses, and thatis the people.
And today we're talking allabout culture, and we've brought
on someone who just has such anincredible knack and ability
and insights for creating theright culture.
So let me tell you all abouttoday's guest.
Her name is Sheila Matthews.
Sheila is a true champion whenit comes to cultivating vibrant
workplace cultures and making itlook effortless.
(00:42):
Gosh, isn't that what we're alllooking for?
Her secret Mastering the peoplepart and watching everything
else fall into place.
With a career as diverse as apainter's palette, Sheila has
left her mark on a multitude ofindustries spanning
transportation, manufacturingand services, among others.
She's worked for industrygiants like UPS and MetLife, as
well as overseeing the peoplefunction for startups like
(01:04):
Acquisitioncom, where shequickly scaled several small
teams into impressive armies oftalent.
Now, for those of you who arethinking well, my business is
different or my industry isdifferent, or I've got a remote
team.
Sheila has been there and donethat, and so much that she's
going to share with us intoday's episode not only applies
to where you may be in yourexisting business growth, but,
(01:25):
most importantly, it has thateye to the future, of what type
of company you want to build andwhat type of culture you want
to create.
So that's why I'm personallysuper excited to learn from
Sheila today.
I'm not going to say anythingelse.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Sheila Matthews.
All right, Sheila, I'm soexcited that you're here with us
(01:46):
today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
I am so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Heck.
Yes, we are all very excited tolearn from you, especially
because I talked about a littlebit in your bio, but your
diverse set of experiences,sheila, it seems like you worked
in so many differentenvironments.
We're talking business sizes,we're talking types of companies
, kind of the young, fun, agileones like acquisitioncom, as
well as the giants we've allheard of.
(02:14):
So you've got to take us beyondthe bio.
Who's Sheila?
How'd you start doing all thesecool things?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, thank you.
So you know, when I first gotinto people and culture, it was
really through learning anddevelopment.
I had a knack for trainingmaterials, standing up in front
of people and givingpresentations and facilitating,
and I started at L&D and then,interestingly, took like a side
(02:40):
swipe into hiring.
Back in the day when I workedat MetLife, and when they hired
me I was like I don't understandwhy you guys are hiring me.
I've never hired anybody in myentire life before.
And they were like we'll teachyou that part.
You are a good judge ofcharacter and that is more
important than any of the stuffthat we'll teach you.
The stuff that we'll teach you,we'll get you there the rest of
(03:05):
the way.
And I was like, oh, okay, so Ikind of just took a leap of
faith and jumped in and it stuck.
You know, I've I've done a lotof different areas of people and
culture and even HR in mycareer.
Uh, but the hiring piece isreally what.
I've kind of ended updeveloping a name for myself
around.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I love that, especially because, as someone
who, over 16 years of being anentrepreneur, I've hired so many
different people and I knowthat that's really the first
step.
Obviously, they come across ourbusinesses before they ever see
our job postings, but reallyour one-to-one interactions with
them begin through that process.
So, sheila, when we talk abouthiring, what's the scope of what
(03:42):
you assess and what you look at?
Because that's the first stepof really starting our culture
and starting the feelings, theemotions, the culture that we
want to create in our ownbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I love this question.
I could talk about this all day.
Okay, so there's really threebig things, and then there's
like an unspoken fourth that youknow I'm being a little
sarcastic, you'll see what Imean.
But knowledge, skills andabilities those are the three
big things.
What happens sometimes whenentrepreneurs start their hiring
journey is they start withculture and trust.
(04:15):
Don't get me wrong.
Trust is super important, butwhat happens when you're only
looking through culture andtrust is that you're not really
scrubbing whether they have theknowledge, the skills, the
experience to do the thing thatyou're hiring them to do.
And so whether I'm I've helpedsomeone with their very first
hire, which I would argue isalways the most important one,
(04:37):
right?
Or you know, like we're innumber 5 000 I'm always looking
for first do they have thethings that I need?
I don't want to have to hiresomeone that I have to teach
everything to.
I want them to come in with avery solid foundation of the
thing that I'm hiring them to dofor me.
Then I start looking at culturefit and personality fit, and to
(05:00):
me one isn't more importantthan the other.
You have to have both sides ofit in excess, especially when
you're small and growing.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, hearing you talk about this, sheila, I
always think to myself and Iespecially think about this
within the context of marketingis how simple these things sound
when we tune into a podcastepisode or we watch a YouTube
video.
But, of course, the actualpracticality of it is extremely
difficult to get right, and somy question to you we're going
to get into this really early onin our conversation today is
how do we assess these things?
(05:30):
You talk about the knowledge,the skills, the abilities.
How do we figure out Becauseit's easy for people to say, oh
yeah, I know how to use thistool and that tool and to do
those processes how do weactually assess if they're
accurate in their own assessmentof themselves?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Oh, actually assess if they're accurate in their own
assessment of themselves.
Oh my goodness, yeah, it doesget a little tricky, admittedly,
I sometimes forget.
I've been doing this for areally long time and so, but,
but here's.
Here's what I would recommend.
Number one if you've neverwritten a job description before
, don't let this hire be thefirst time that you try it.
If you need someone to help youwith marketing, hire be the
first time that you try it.
(06:05):
If you need someone to help youwith marketing, go on Indeed and
LinkedIn and find an existingmarketing director or marketing
assistant or marketing managerjob description and work from
that.
You don't necessarily want tojust lift it and use it as is,
but use that to help you formthe requirements and the skills.
Read several of them.
Do the research.
You have to put the work in inthe beginning when you're when
(06:27):
you're not a hiring professional, to figure out is the thing I
need one what the market callsit, or am I calling it something
weird?
Two is it what I think it is?
I've had people tell me I needa marketing person, I need a
marketing person, and then, whenthey start telling me the
specific tasks they want thatperson to do I'm like that's a
(06:47):
sales manager.
I don't, where did you getmarketing from?
I don't understand, like, howdid?
How did you get there?
And they're like, oh, I guess Ijust thought because it had to
do with leads, you know.
And I'm like, okay, so firstPut in the research.
You can use chat GPT.
Oh my gosh, it's such awonderful tool for just cranking
out a job description templateto get you started in an area.
(07:08):
And then the next step is toreally talk to a couple of
people who you think is doingthe job you need.
So it's not because you're just.
I will go and find people onLinkedIn who are doing what I
(07:28):
think that job is and I'll justask them to take a 15 minute
call with me.
Like, hey, I'm working in thisspace.
I've never filled a role.
It sounds like you're doingsome of this job, but you might
happen on a call and justtelling me a little bit about
what you do.
I have yet to have anyone tellme no, it's such a low point of
entry.
And then sometimes that persondoes turn into a candidate.
(07:48):
I mean, right, like you neverknow, sometimes you get lucky.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, sheila, I love that.
I've actually never heard thatadvice before.
But I'll tell you what.
As a podcast host, I'm biasedin the belief that all
conversations are goodconversation.
It's it's.
It's so cool to hear how youapply that to your own industry,
because you're not talkingabout interviewing these people
for the sake of potentiallyhiring them.
You're talking aboutinterviewing them for the sake
of you yourself, the businessowner or the hiring manager,
(08:13):
learning more about that role inother organizations, which that
intelligence is only going tobenefit all of our businesses.
And, as you said, a naturalby-product is heck.
It might work out with thatperson and they might be the
ideal candidate.
So I really love those insights.
I'm going to keep followingthis process with you.
And what's the interview looklike from there?
Because there are a lot of waysto do interviews, some of them
(08:33):
tricky, some of them clever, butI'd love to hear the Sheila
Matthews approach.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
So for me one, I want as manypeople to interview this person
as reasonable, so that does notmean 6000 or six interviews, but
you think about every.
Every conversation should allowyou to become more educated on
the person you're considering.
So what that looks like is evenin the screening call, and a
(08:59):
lot of candidates will be like,oh well, they're just the
recruiter or they're just thescreener, so I don't really have
to worry about showing up forthat.
And that's a mistake, becauseeven at that very first contact
we are assessing and evaluatingwhether this person is a fit,
whether they're professional,whether they showed up prepared
or not.
And that counts against a lotof people.
(09:19):
When they show up in theirworkout clothes and they're like
, uh, is it okay if I take thisfrom my car?
I'm coming from the gym?
It's like, oh, oh, yeah, I, youknow, like I, I thought you
would have been a little moreprepared, you know, um, but
we're, we're looking for highlevel stuff during the screening
call and really like, are theya match for the things that we
said we had to have?
And so there shouldn't be alaundry list of those things.
(09:41):
If you use tools like 8020,like the Pareto tool.
80% of someone's job can beboiled down into like four or
five very key requirements, andso you got to figure out what
those are and then check forthat on their resume and during
the screening call.
If it's a yes and they don'tseem correct you know
(10:02):
unprofessional or some otherthing that maybe would rub you
the wrong way then you move themto the next call.
I like to have a separateinterview for technical versus
culture, and those are twodifferent people that are doing
that.
But at the beginning I'mexplaining that to the candidate
to say, listen, I want you tomeet three different people in
this company.
You'll meet myself, therecruiter, the screener, whoever
(10:24):
that person is.
You will meet the hiringmanager that's who usually does
the technical interview.
And then I want you tointerview with someone else in
the company during the step thatwe call the culture interview,
where we will do our best toadequately and accurately
represent ourselves so you knowwhat it's like to work here.
But then also we're going to belearning what you're looking
(10:46):
for in a position and a job andeven in a team in an environment
, to see if this is a good fit,and we use our core values to
help us determine that, so thatit's not like, oh, she seemed
fun, let's hire her.
It's like did she give examplesand did she demonstrate a
natural alignment to the thingsthat we have decided are
(11:07):
important at our company?
You know whether that is, youknow, excellence over ego, or
you know like, whatever yourvalues are?
And then the last piece that Iwould share in the technical
interview, I'm kind of over star, I'll be honest, since you
asked for the Sheila version,what I would prefer a hiring
manager do during the technicalinterview is think about the
(11:30):
problems that you want thisperson to solve in your business
.
Are you bringing them in toimprove churn?
Are you bringing them in toincrease lead flow?
What are you hiring them toprimarily do?
And then use those problems inyour business as a basis for the
interview questions.
And so that might soundsomething.
Like you know, right now my topof funnel is struggling.
(11:54):
I'm running ads on these twoplatforms.
My cost of acquisition is here,my CAC's this, my this is that,
and I can tell something'swrong, but I don't have the
expertise to figure out whatthat is.
If you were just stepping intothis business, where would you
look for a second and third howwould you help me solve this
problem?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Sheila.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Real life question here in real time in our
conversation today, especiallybecause I so appreciate as well
the fact that you called out the80-20 principle.
And I'm going to ask you tothrow a little bit of shade here
, sheila, because what I thinksomething that I've come to
value even more the older that Iget, the more experience that I
get, the more mature I get asan entrepreneur is that people
like you experts in your field,subject matter experts you're
(12:38):
really good at deciphering thestuff that matters versus the
stuff that doesn't, and so whenI was 20 years old and starting
my first business and I waslearning about marketing,
everything mattered to me.
I thought I had to be on everyplatform.
I'm going to blame Gary Vee forall of that.
I thought I had to be literallyeverywhere.
But sure, the older I get, themore I realize, gosh, really,
you could just be so good at sofew things, and that's what
(13:00):
makes all the difference.
So the shade I'm going to askyou to throw is what are some of
those things that companiestypically think matter when it
comes to hires and I'll throw myown personal bias in here of
you know the, you need five toseven years of experience and
you need a college degree andall of these things.
That's just one example from myend.
Sheila, give me yourperspective there.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Oh my gosh, it's absolutely thinking.
You have to list every freakingfeasible possible task.
And you know what I like?
I really can't stand these fivepage job descriptions or even
three page job descriptionswhere we're trying to account
for every little thing and thenthe hiring manager comes into
this engagement with veryunrealistic expectations,
(13:43):
because now they expect that therecruiter is going to check for
30 different types of work andtasks and make sure this
candidate has done every singleone of them.
And you know like it's, it'snot realistic, it's not a good
use of anyone's time.
And then I would also submityou're not really setting the
employee uh up, or the personthat you're hiring up for a good
(14:04):
experience, like who wants totake a job where they learn
nothing new.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, why would what's in itfor you at that point?
Yes, you're going to get paid,but part of part of the
excitement and the kind ofgrowth piece of taking on a new
role is that there are unknown,unlearned pieces of that, and,
and so that's that's kind of myway in on it um, the other piece
(14:27):
I think is um and this is toughbecause again it is, it is a
skill piece.
But you know you, a lot of timessometimes hiring managers come
into the process and theyhaven't really done the
self-reflect, they have notreally spent time and research
to figure out the thing thatthey want and need, and that
wastes a lot of time and a lotof candidate time when you're
(14:50):
trying to find your perfectperson.
And so to me, like those arethe two egregious things is that
companies don't incentivizehiring managers to prepare to
hire and then on the other side,you know like we're just
throwing everything in thekitchen sink into the job
description and it doesn't allowus to really pull and dig into
(15:10):
the things that matter most.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, sheila, I kind of want to flip this
conversation on its head alittle bit, because hearing you
talk about these things you talkabout, you know it's exciting
to hire someone into a new role,not just because they're
getting paid.
That's one of the reasons,though.
Of course, we all love gettingpaid, but I think that it calls
out part of our obligation andour responsibilities on the
hiring side, as business owners,as entrepreneurs, to also
(15:34):
reflect on the fact that we needto provide value as well,
beyond just the fact that we payother people.
And so I want to ask you this,because I obviously talk to a
lot of entrepreneurs andbusiness owners in my line of
work, and I keep hearing thisphrase.
For the past two years, I'veheard people say it's hard to
find good help, and I'm reallythrilled because some of the
best members of my team havebeen coming on board in the past
(15:56):
few years.
So, sheila, what can we, asbusiness owners, do to create a
position where it's easy to findgood help?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I know that that statement is said with the best
of intentions, but you know theyare out there with the best of
intentions, but you know theyare out there.
Oh my gosh, there are so manyamazing people out there looking
for their next opportunity.
Um, but you have to show upprepared for it and then, um, I
think I'll take this opportunityto just talk about a limiting
(16:25):
belief that I've worked throughwith a lot of entrepreneurs
about, which is like I don'toffer benefits, I can't offer
healthcare, therefore I can'tfind someone good, and so to me,
that is between your ears, youknow, like you're telling
yourself that, and even if youdon't have, maybe you don't
offer group benefits.
Yet that's actually not a bigdeal.
(16:46):
You can offer a stipend ormoney towards someone purchasing
their healthcare.
You can offer a stipend ormoney towards someone purchasing
their health care.
So sometimes you just getcreative about the things that
you can offer in order to bemore competitive.
If you think that is a concernfor you, but after hiring
hundreds of people, probablyactually thousands of people, I
(17:06):
will tell you benefits matter,but culture matters more.
You benefits matter, butculture matters more.
The environment in which youallow someone to come in and
play a part of in your businessmatters more than the extra
spliffs and you know cash andprizes that you give them.
You have to pay market.
You know like to me, that istable stakes.
You should be willing to pay ator above market if you want
(17:29):
someone amazing because that'swhat they will get anywhere else
.
But really your differentiatorand it's so much easier, by the
way, for smaller businessesbecause you have less people to
corral your differentiator is tocreate an amazing environment
for them to come and be a partof.
Lean into the growth aspect,lean into you know the scale,
(17:52):
lean into all the things thatyou love about coming in every
day and doing that, and thoseare the people that you want to
attract into your business.
If you're under 5 million rightnow.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, sheila, I'll tell you what you just
introduced, that big word that Ipromised at the top of today's
episode of culture.
We're going to talk aboutculture now, and I'm so excited
for this part of theconversation because it's this
huge, intangible thing, and Iwould argue that it's easy to
see the extremes when we saw, Ithink back to the early two
thousands, the, the heydays ofthe Googles of the world, where
(18:23):
they had all these fun officeenvironments that had never been
seen anywhere in the workplace.
They really revolutionized thatside of it, and I'm not going
to speak to their current status, because who knows what the
status of all of those, but theydid change the way that work is
done in so many ways and that'swhy we saw the start in the
rise of so many cool techcompanies.
But then also we can feel thosebad environments.
(18:44):
You know, we hear some of thehorror stories of some delivery
drivers for some big onlinee-tailers and they've got some
ugly working conditions.
So, sheila, with that in mind,what's culture?
Because we know it when we seegood or bad culture, but it's so
hard to define and put ourfingers on, especially as
business owners of our own.
We love our businesses.
(19:04):
They're our babies.
But what does that culture looklike, what are the ingredients
that play into it, and wheredoes it manifest itself in our
businesses?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I always, when Ifirst start having this
conversation with entrepreneurs,I tell them that culture is the
way people act.
When you're not around, itseems like, well, wait a minute,
I thought I drove culture.
You do drive culture, but ifyou know, if it's only happening
(19:33):
when you're there, you have toask yourself is it because I'm
creating a punishing environmentand that's why people are doing
it?
How do they act when I, when Iremove myself from the equation?
And good behavior or badbehavior?
That is the culture that isgrowing and taking place in your
business, and so I like to giveexamples to help contextualize
some of this.
So, if you gossip with people inyour business, I hate to.
(19:57):
I'm gonna leave with a negative, sorry, but let's say that you
like to gossip with other peoplein your company.
Well, when you're not around,guess what's happening?
Other people are gossiping,whether you think they should or
not.
You are leading with thatexample and you are setting the
stage that that is an acceptablebehavior in your company and
that becomes part of the culture.
(20:17):
And then sometimes I getquestions like how do I turn
that around if I've mademistakes?
I mean, I'm human too, I'mstill learning and growing and
I'm like I get it.
Then you have to address whatyou've done that was wrong.
You have to commit to changingyour own behavior and then
explain that you would likeeveryone and you expect everyone
to follow suit, and then youhave to follow through on that.
(20:39):
So it's like hey, I know I'vegauged, I've engaged in harmful
gossip before.
I'm not proud of that.
I'm also learning and growing,but I this isn't the, this isn't
what I want for our business.
I'm building this business sothat all of us have an amazing
place to work, and what I'verealized is that behavior can't
be a part of it if I really wantpeople to feel safe and love
being here.
(20:59):
So I'm committing to all of youthat I'm not going to do that
anymore and I'm going to askthat you guys come along with me
on that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, Sheila, I want to ask you this question because
I think you have such a uniquevantage point in what I'm going
to ask you, and that is when youtalk about companies of
different sizes.
And I love the fact that youinterjected into the
conversation about what if aculture is already established,
how can we start switching that?
I always I love that analogy ofdropping food coloring into a
swimming pool.
You know, if we drop it into aglass of water, it's going to
(21:29):
make a big difference to thecolor of our water.
If we drop it into a swimmingpool, it's going to take a lot
of drops of water to make anysort of difference.
And the same is true when itcomes to culture.
Is that at UPS, if UPS hired metoday, sure, I can have a local
difference on my immediatecoworkers, but I'm not going to
radically change as a newemployee, I'm not going to
radically change the culture ofUPS.
However, on the startup levelwhich you're well versed there
(21:52):
as well, you've worked in somany cool environments it does
make a big difference.
Every hire makes a massivedifference.
So my question to you really isat that smaller level, for the
startups, for the rapidlygrowing companies, do we hire
for culture?
Do we let the hires help shapeour culture?
What's the chicken or the egghere, and how do we solve that?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I think that you're looking for your
alignment to values first andforemost and that will ensure
that they are a culture fit orit will help to ensure right,
because I mean, at the end ofthe day, no one gets hiring
right 100% of the time, evensuper seasoned people.
So also, if you screw it up,let them go, forgive yourself.
You know, learn from it andmove on.
(22:35):
But you really want to askyourself what are my company's
values?
If you don't have values, youshould think about having some
like what are the things thatguide the company's behavior
when you're not there?
Those are your values.
I like three, you know three orfour.
You don't need 20.
You know no one's going toremember those and I like to
(22:58):
make them fun and usealliteration so that they're
easy to remember.
Like you know, a couple of thevalues that I run my company
with is make that mess yourmasterpiece.
Excellence over ego.
You know they're kind of catchyand I can easily explain what
they mean to someone if they'renot sure.
And from there, during theculture interview, when I am
hiring someone, I'm asking likedoes this person have a mindset
(23:22):
and a natural proclivity to becontinuously better?
Will they take ownership ofsomething if no one else is
taking ownership of it in orderto move the work forward and to
improve it.
Will this person be coachable?
Do I if they make a mistake?
Are they?
Will we all be walking oneggshells?
(23:44):
Will we be able to talk aboutit productively?
Can this person grow from thatexperience?
And so, when you're gettingthose things right, then you
have less to worry about.
But you know, culture is like aplant If you don't water it
it'll die, you know.
So, even though you may get itright during the interview, then
you have to continually dothings to reinforce and
(24:06):
encourage those behaviors, toensure that each person does
positively impact the culture.
And here's the thing Ifsomebody doesn't, then it's
really.
You get to align the problemback to the value and say, hey,
you know, one of our values hereis excellence over ego.
And I felt last week in thatmeeting you got a little
(24:29):
defensive and it kind of shutdown the conversation so that we
could figure out how to fix theissue that happened and move it
forward.
What do you think?
And so it's being able to takethe things that you said were
really important, but then holdpeople accountable to those.
And if they're not a culturefit because they're not aligning
to the values, then that's thegrounds that you would use to
(24:51):
then remove that person from theteam.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yes, sheila, I'm loving these insights from you
here today.
I want to go down that pathbecause it is a sensitive topic
about what happens when we don'tget it right, and even on the
positive side of that is that we.
It's not only a sensitive topicwith regards sometimes we have
to let people go, but it alsopoints out that we have an
obligation to keep that goodnessand that culture rolling.
(25:14):
And so, along those lines, whatdoes that look like?
Once we've onboarded someone,how do we create the culture?
Because I've been in all of mycollege internships, I've been
the part of quite a fewcompanies that try to do that,
and they do it through, you know, repeating mantras and phrases
that all of us employees andinterns were sitting there going
gosh, we really have to do thisagain.
(25:37):
So, sheila, what's the real way?
What's the?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
good way to do these things.
I'm not laughing at you, Ipromise, but I have also been
subjugated or subjected to thosethings that it's so
uncomfortable especially whenyou're new right so to me,
especially when you're new rightso to me in a small, growing
business there are.
There are two aspects to methat grow culture most, and one
(26:00):
is just good, old-fashionedcommunication.
I mean, I know it sounds like,but if you have regular all team
meetings, so this is everybodyon the team, I don't care if
there are three people on theteam or in the company, bring
them together.
Use that opportunity to talkabout why do we exist, why is
(26:21):
this company in business, whatis our big picture, ultimate
goal Every week, every two weeks, you should be reinforcing why
are we all here together?
What is our common ground, whatare we working for and how is
it going?
You should be doing shout outsand recognition on those calls
and they're consistent.
These are the calls that neverget canceled.
(26:42):
They don't get bumped becausewe don't have something new to
say.
It's actually the point is torepeat yourself every week on
these calls like mission, vision, strategy, values, shout outs
and recognition, quick update ifI have, a quick update, but if
not, it's not a big deal.
We wrap the call early.
You should be training.
If your company is a little bitbigger, you have managers who
(27:04):
have teams.
You should be training themanagers how to run one on
one-one meetings.
You should be teaching peoplehow to talk about the company
values.
How do they integrate thevalues discussion in their
day-to-day work with their teams.
All of these things are touchpoints that matter.
And then the other big piece tocommunication is that as the
(27:28):
owner, you should be checking inwith everyone.
I can't tell you how much itmeans to a new person when
somewhere in the first week youknow they're in, they've got, of
course, they've got onboardingactivities, they've got all this
training going on.
But somebody just kind of popsup and says hey, I know it's
your first week.
It's been a couple of days, Ijust wanted to check in and see
how things are going.
(27:48):
And then you know like I use asauna for stuff like that or
Trello is.
You know like those are mysecret weapons.
When it comes to checking in, Ihave a task for everybody on
the team.
Every month or so, I change thedate and so that way I can
ensure that I'm taking that fiveto seven minutes to just check
in, not like what are youworking on?
(28:08):
This is not a work call, makeno mistake.
Like I'm coming from, workingis like, essentially, the water
cooler check-in.
You know, like I would have notrun into this person in a break
room because we don't have onein a remote world, but I'm just
sending them a quick note to say"'Hey, I'm thinking of you "'I
know, last time I checked in,"'your mom wasn't feeling good.
"'is she feeling better?
(28:29):
"'how's your dog''.
You know, like it's just thesequick little, like we're human
touch points that make adifference.
And then the other big thing,aside from communication and it
is a form of communication isrecognition.
Say thank you, recognize people.
It doesn't have to be somethingbig.
I think most of us think well,I mean, that seems like such a
(28:52):
silly thing to recognize someonefor, but do it?
Find the good thing thatsomeone did.
And then you start buildingthis culture to invite everyone
else to give recognition toother people.
And to me, if you can startwith recognition and start with
consistent communication, you'relike 80 percent ahead of 80
(29:12):
percent ahead of everybody else.
The other piece, though, is toreinforce what you say you're
going to do and do it, so you dolet the team down.
If you are letting people stayon the team who aren't a values
fit and who aren't a fit withthe business or who aren't doing
their jobs, you're not helpinganyone.
It creates this environment.
(29:33):
Well, that must be okay.
If it's not okay, you have todo the hard thing and talk about
it with them, address it, andif it doesn't change, then you
have to exit that person.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, sheila, I love these real life insights, the
fact that you called out theproverbial water cooler that's
something that all of ourbusinesses were really looking
for in this remote world, and soI know that you've operated in
these environments, and evenwith your own business
(30:17):
no-transcript, with all of thesebig companies doing their
return to office initiatives,and I think it's trash.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You know like we don't teach managers to manage,
so when we move remote, we alsodon't teach them how to manage
differently, because we reallynever taught them to manage to
begin with, and so maybe they'renot getting the results or the
things that they want.
But shame on the company that'son them.
You know like.
So for growing businesses,remote businesses, if you're
(30:49):
never planning on having anoffice, you know you, it's the
same, you're doing the samethings, it just expresses
differently on a remote team.
Now this one's going to beunpopular, I'm going to say it
anyway.
I say in a remote business thatfor certain meetings cameras
are on.
It doesn't mean they're on forevery single meeting or call
(31:11):
ever, but if I'm investing thetime and money to pull the
entire company together for thatfull team meeting or that all
hands meeting, I want to seeeverybody.
I want to see people for that30 minutes.
I want to see how I want to seethem.
You know like I want thecameras on.
People are more engaged at thatpoint and you get more
participation when you can seethem and you can and they can
(31:35):
see you.
So to me, like that is anunpopular one or a controversial
one, but it's an important onefor me.
I also say make time for fun.
So this is the biggest piece.
I think that can one get doneincorrectly, but then two just
doesn't get done at all, and sowhat that looks like is a lot of
(31:55):
us now do everything on ourcomputer.
We're not as social in otherareas of life, and so people
want to get to know theircoworkers, they want to be able
to socialize.
You don't force it, though.
This is not the mandated funcommittee of you know the old
days, but it's like, hey, ifanybody wants to do this, we're
thinking about planning anemployee trivia night on zoom
(32:18):
and it'll be on this date atthis time and it's completely
voluntary, you don't have to doit if you're busy or you don't
want to, but if you'd like to,you know, feel free to join.
We used to use the whiteboardand like have drawing contests
in zoom.
I mean, like it's.
It's silly, you know, but itwas really.
It's less about the activityand more about getting all of us
together where, in aenvironment where we can kind of
(32:39):
laugh and joke with one another.
I would also recommend, ifyou're small, just block out
co-working time, so that iswhere anybody and everybody can
join in.
You can have your camera on oroff and you just sort of
silently work together on thething, work on something that
you're doing, and then I usuallyreserve the last 15 minutes
(33:00):
that if somebody wants to sharewhat they've been working on,
you know, they can talk to therest of the group about it.
Engineering teams, coding teamsdo this.
It's been super productive andhelpful, and so I think, like
entrepreneurs can do this too.
Small companies can be lonelyand so it's nice to just create
these casual times where peoplecan come together and just have
(33:24):
company.
You'd be surprised it takes off.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, sheila, I love that.
I'm definitely going toimplement some of these behind
the scenes here at theentrepreneur to entrepreneur
podcast.
So I appreciate these real lifeinsights and you're giving us
actual strategies that we canimplement.
So it's going to be hard to topall of the great things that
you've shared with us here intoday's episode, but I always
love asking this question at theend, because you're such a
wealth of knowledge and you cananswer this question as the
(33:47):
subject matter expert that youare, or as a fellow entrepreneur
, because I'm going to toot yourhorn for Culture Pro in just a
few minutes.
But before we get there, what'sthat one piece of advice?
Knowing that we're beinglistened to by entrepreneurs and
entrepreneurs all over theworld at all different stages of
their own growth journeys,what's that one thing that you
want to impart on all of ourlisteners here today?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Oh my gosh.
You know, take the risk.
I know that sounds crazy, but alot of people that I talk to
are really asking me forreassurance a lot of times, and
I'll I'll give you the advicethat I have to constantly remind
myself of is just try it.
You know, just try it, you.
You don't need to spendhundreds of 1000s of dollars on
(34:31):
the perfect person.
You know, try just running thecomps and, you know, picking a
number in the middle.
If you don't know what to pay,someone ask them hey, what would
you like to make to feel reallyengaged and be excited to work
here?
You know, like, just ask around, get that knowledge and then
just take the chance.
If it's wrong, you will learnan incredible amount from that
(34:53):
experience.
And if it's right, then youknow you've just built your
confidence up some.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, sheila, I love that advice, and especially
because it fits right in withsome of the things that I want
to publicly very much praise youfor, and that is layered
beneath so much of what wetalked about today.
What makes you different in somany ways, and why we've been so
excited to have you on the show, sheila, is that I know that
you have such a fundamentalunderstanding of business, of
(35:20):
the life of an entrepreneur,because, like I've said a few
times, you are one of us, and sowhat I really admire not only
about the way that you show upand the value and the
experiences that you have is howyou bring this stuff to the
world and what you're doing withyour own company, culture Pro,
which you're going to drop thatlink for listeners in just a
second.
It's incredible to me even theway you show up.
I always say that successleaves clues and your website,
(35:41):
sheila.
What we didn't talk about todayis branding and messaging and
copy, but you're a master of allof those things as well, and
I'm going to chalk some of it upto the fact that you've worked
with incredible companies,you've been a part of incredible
teams and obviously you'resuper brilliant in all of your
own ways as well.
So I love all the stuff thatyou're doing and, with that said
, you've got to drop those linksfor listeners who want to learn
(36:02):
more about you and see the waythat you're practicing what you
preach and growing your ownbusiness.
Where should they go from here?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, you know, you can always find me on LinkedIn.
I know that sounds crazy, but Iam very active on LinkedIn.
I love the community, and thenmy own website is cultureproco.
So, by all means, come out,leave me a message, drop me a
note.
I love meeting people, so I'mnot a big pitch person, even
(36:30):
though I've worked for some verynotable pitch people in
business.
I am more of a relationshipsperson and I would love to take
a call with people and get toknow them.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So yes, listeners, you heard that link right there
from Sheila.
It's cultureproco, super easyto find.
We're also dropping it downbelow in the show notes, as well
as a link to Sheila's personalLinkedIn.
If you want to reach out I'malso going to plug this, sheila,
because you didn't is that youalso have a free guide and a
free resource on your website.
So, listeners, if you want tocontinue your journey into all
of the wisdom and insights thatyou can pick up from Sheila even
(36:58):
before you start working withher, definitely check out that
link.
Just click right on throughfrom the show notes.
It's cultureproco.
No matter where it is thatyou're tuning into today's
episode, you'll find that linkdown below.
So, sheila, on behalf of myselfand all of our listeners
worldwide, thanks so much forcoming on the show today.
Thanks, brian hey, it's Brianhere and thanks for tuning in to
(37:23):
yet another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom.
And I just want to give a shoutout to our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
(37:44):
These are not sponsoredepisodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
(38:05):
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
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