What if you could transform customer experiences into your biggest asset for overcoming sales challenges? Join us with Andy Stauffer, the visionary founder of Proofmap, as we unpack his journey from a startup sales rep to the VP of sales and marketing at CloudCoach. Andy sheds light on the pivotal role of social proof in fostering business credibility and success, revealing powerful tactics to harness customer stories for elevating your SaaS enterprise. Learn how his career evolution inspired Proofmap's mission to maximize the impact of social proof across the B2B space.
Facing content marketing hurdles with limited resources? We explore strategic solutions for SaaS companies to rejuvenate their marketing efforts by turning a single customer interview into a robust, multi-use marketing asset. By embracing a mindset that values customer goodwill and enthusiasm, businesses can achieve remarkable outcomes. Andy discusses the seamless integration of AI in crafting compelling case studies while ensuring that every customer interaction remains respectful and valuable. This episode highlights the fine balance between technology-driven efficiency and maintaining a genuine customer-focused approach.
Peek into the future of productized services and how they can serve as a launchpad for aspiring SaaS entrepreneurs. Andy shares his insights on achieving software-like margins and scalability without the need for complex infrastructure. Uncover the art of "sell then build," leveraging rapid AI advancements to test market ideas and grow your concept swiftly. We emphasize the essence of go-to-market strategies and social proof in carving out a competitive edge, offering you actionable strategies to differentiate your business and accelerate growth in today's dynamic SaaS landscape.
ABOUT ANDY
Andy Stauffer is the former VP of Sales & Marketing at Cloud Coach, an Enterprise Saas company recently acquired by Main Capital. Today Andy is the Founder of Proofmap, leveraging his experience as a start-up Sales rep and a GTM executive to address a distinct challenge for growing SaaS companies without full marketing teams: Maximizing the impacts of social proof.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and there's
something that I think we've allexperienced when it comes to
looking at other businesses isthat we've gone to their website
and we've thought to ourselvesholy cow, this business has so
much social proof.
Their clients, their customersseem to love them.
Why don't I have that samefeedback in that same social
(00:23):
proof?
Well, you're in for a treattoday, because we've got an
incredible guest and a fellowentrepreneur who's going to
highlight all the ways that wecan actually take that customer
social proof seriously andimplement it for our own
businesses.
So let me introduce you totoday's guest.
His name is Andy Stauffer.
Andy is the former VP of salesand marketing at CloudCoach,
which is an enterprise SaaScompany recently acquired by
(00:46):
Maine Capital.
Today, andy is the founder of avery cool company that can
benefit all of us.
Wait till you hear about allthe great work that they do.
He's the founder of ProofMap,leveraging his experience as a
startup sales rep and ago-to-market executive to
address a distinct challenge forgrowing SaaS companies without
full marketing teams maximizingthe impacts of social proof.
(01:07):
If you've ever thought thatyour marketing efforts and your
sales efforts are not doing asmuch as they should be doing.
Well, that's why Andy's entirebusiness exists.
We're all going to learn a lotfrom him today.
I'm excited about this one, soI'm not going to say anything
else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Andy Stauffer.
Else, let's dive straight intomy interview with Andy Stauffer.
(01:29):
All right, andy, I am so veryexcited that you're here with us
today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, it's great to be here.
Heck, yes, I'm excited to heareven more about your business.
I've been researching it aheadof the two of us getting
together, but before we getthere, you've got to take us
beyond the bio.
Who's Andy?
How'd you start doing all thesecool things?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, so my career has primarily been in startup
land.
I started as employee numbereight or nine at a growing
enterprise SaaS company.
I was the first sales repreporting directly to the
founder.
He kind of took me under hiswing and yeah, I've been doing
that ever since.
It's kind of an interestingjourney how I got to Proofmap?
Because I wasn't necessarilygood at sales.
(02:14):
I was 23 years old, straightout of college but I was just
really close to the customerexperience.
In those days when your salesare about a small company, you
might be also helping withsupport.
Funny story my fiance wasactually.
She was on the onboarding teamand it was a real Jim and Pam
(02:35):
situation at the time.
But essentially I also.
When I would sell a deal Iwould quickly hear how that
experience was if I oversold.
Those could be some roughnights if I oversold and it
wasn't a great fit.
But it was a good, just way oflearning through osmosis how to
recognize what the customerexperience is and then
(02:56):
constantly weaving that in to mysales process.
So I started as a sales repthere.
The company grew, I moved up tohead of sales and then
eventually VP of sales andmarketing and the company was
acquired just about a year and ahalf ago and that was a good
celebration for us.
And then we took that time totravel the world.
(03:17):
I actually spent eight monthstraveling through Asia before
coming back to Austin where Istarted Proof Pap.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, I love that overview, Andy, especially
because I really appreciate thefact that your story starts in
sales, because I think mostpeople don't realize that the
entire goal of Social Proof, theentire goal of these client
success stories and sharing themwith the world, is that our
sales and marketing are moreeffective.
Talk to us about where, alongthe journey, you realized wait,
social social proof.
(03:43):
This is one of the secretingredients when it comes to
sales.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah I mean.
So I'm going to go back to thevery beginning once again.
So I wouldn't consider myself anatural salesperson, and that's
coming from somebody that's nowstarted my own company and also
was previously VP of sales,started my own company and also
was previously VP of sales.
But you know, I remember when Ifirst took the role and I was
(04:09):
kind of irked, I wasn't sure ifI wanted to do it because I just
had this connotation as far aslike sleazy used car salesman.
But particularly in the B2Benterprise SaaS space, it's very
consultative and I found thatsocial proof in having the voice
of the customer being the coremessage and really working with
(04:29):
prospects to help solve theirproblems was actually very
fulfilling.
Speak to actual customerexperiences when dealing with
prospect objections or even inthe discovery calls and kind of
calling on other industryleaders that were peers of mine
(04:52):
or I would say, customers ofmine, because otherwise you
could be caught being like a23-year-old BDR and you're
speaking to an executive at,let's say, a VP of professional
services trying to give thembest practice advice on billable
utilization, and there's justno credibility there.
(05:12):
So customer stories were just away for me to overcome that and
then, as we started to grow andwe started to hire more sales
reps that were reporting to me,I realized it was a challenge to
recreate that, because theyweren't coming through this
small startup doing everythinganymore.
Now they were just coming onboard and they were more
specialized roles.
And in order to maintain socialproof as our lead advantage in
(05:38):
the sales process, I needed toinvest more in customer stories,
and so that happened verynaturally at CloudCoach.
And then as I came back, youknow, after taking a year off
after the sale of CloudCoach andkind of looking into where
could I make the greatest impactfor companies just like mine at
CloudCoach, social proof wasthe obvious answer for me.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, andy, when you articulate that, one thing that
really stands out to me is thefact that you say customer
stories we're not just merelytalking about reviews or
testimonials, which I feel likea lot of businesses, they'll
email a customer and say, hey,can you send me a review or a
one-liner?
Talk to me about thatdifference.
It just seems to me like youreally embrace the story, part
of the social proof that we'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, I mean to look at it that way.
I think about who ProofMaps ICPis as well.
Our ideal customer is reallymore so B2B customers that have
a more enterprise-like salescycle, meaning it's a lot of
touch points, there's discovery,there's demos, there's
proposals, there's gettingdifferent stakeholders involved
(06:45):
and thus there's also typicallya higher contract value.
But what that means you mighthave a startup that's doing 10
million in ARR, but it's notlike they have thousands of
clients that they could refer to.
And that's where you see someof these B2C or more so targeted
towards SMB high velocity salescycles.
They can afford to go after itfrom like a volume play and they
(07:07):
can have a ton of reviews.
They can have a wall of fame ontheir website and there's a lot
of applications out there forthat.
But for my clientele it's moreso.
You know you have a subset ofyour best customers and you're
starting to understand where youhave product market fit and you
got to go a little bit furtherand that's where customer
stories go in.
So we work with our clients toactually interview their
(07:30):
customers and take thoseinterviews and get more out of
them.
So it's more of a volume playsprouting from each individual
customer than it is trying toget hundreds of case studies or
hundreds of reviews.
We have a conversation withthem, we understand really how
our customer solution addressedtheir customers' problems and
(07:52):
then tell that story frombeginning to end.
So what was life like before?
What were the best solutionsand sometimes they're not even
what you might have expected inthe initial sales cycle, after
you get familiar with theproduct and then what were the
actual impacts of solving thoseproblems?
And then, of course, with thatcomes sort of this world that
didn't even exist before, thatyou're trying to communicate
(08:15):
with your prospects.
Now that you've solved yourproblems, what are the new
opportunities that you have?
What are the things that youcan start thinking about that
you were so inundated withbefore?
And that's a story and that'swhat we try to replicate, and
then also think about how wecould replicate that in many
different formats, which we cantalk about later too.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I definitely want to go there with you, Andy,
because that's actuallyprobably my favorite part about
your website, proofmapcom, whichwe'll talk about at the end of
today's episode.
But I really love that graphicwhere you have the customer
interview at the center and thenit branches into.
You can generate a case studyfrom there.
You can generate sales slidesfrom their video testimonials.
We've all seen those companieson Facebook and Instagram that
(08:52):
have customers speaking for themon their behalf about how
awesome they are in their socialads.
The fact that all of that stemsfrom that one thing I've
obviously seen your website I'dlove for you to paint that
picture for our listeners stemsfrom that one thing I've
obviously seen your website.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I'd love for you to paint that picture for our
listeners.
Sure, yeah.
So one of the challenges thatgrowing SaaS companies face
because they don't have a fullcontent marketing team is they
simply don't have the capacityto produce as much as possible.
And what I mean by that is whenyou have an hour interview with
a customer.
There's a lot of great datathere.
There's raw video, of course.
Then you have the transcript.
(09:27):
If you go after that interviewthe right way, you can start to
have not just one case study onyour website, or maybe you have
one two and a half minute sortof highlight video, but you can
start to think about how we canactually get more out of that
interview.
So I always say to my customersif you just have one case today
on your website, that you'rewasting a lot of potential and
(09:49):
you're not having as much impactfrom that conversation that you
could have.
Look at it this way we thinkabout a buyer journey for SaaS
and in the context from asalesperson or a marketing
person, there's this funnel andon the marketing side you're
thinking about awareness all theway through consideration to
the decision process, which ismore on the sales front.
(10:10):
But if you just have a casestudy on your website, that's
somebody that is already new totype in your brand, or they're
going to your website.
That's somebody that alreadyhas interest.
They're already consideringdifferent solutions, but that
case study is not being utilizedwithin the awareness stage,
which is when you might beadvertising on LinkedIn, and
(10:31):
these are people that's withinyour ICP but they're not aware
of you.
And now that format for howthat case study should be
utilized is completely different.
You should be doing littlesnippets, because they're not
familiar with their brand,they're not going to make that
investment to go to your websiteyet.
So now we're thinking aboutquotes, we're thinking about
small, short video snippets, andthe topics need to be more
(10:52):
centered around, you know,addressing specific challenges
or things that might be moreeducational, so that you can
provide value to them, to getthem to view the video or to
click and download an ebook.
So that's the way we startthinking about it, which is like
not just looking at casestudies for one stage of your
buyer journey.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But how can we go up the funnel and down the funnel?
Yeah, it's so much funfollowing this process because
obviously the interview is suchan important part.
But, Andy, I'll be honest,where my head goes.
Hearing you talk about this isholy cow.
I wouldn't even know who tointerview.
I'm so interested to understandthe outreach process and how
you even make that list, BecauseI'm even thinking about the
specifics of when do I interviewthem.
(11:32):
Is it when they've hadsuccessful completion?
Is it a month later, so they'vehad time to really soak in all
the good results?
Is it in the middle of it, whenexcitement is the highest?
Talk to us about that outreachprocess and how and when we
figure out who we should betalking to.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, so there's some obvious things to do.
You don't want to go too soonbecause they might not have
recognized value yet.
You don't want to be too late,because stakeholders change,
particularly in the B2B space,and the decision maker or the
executive sponsor that you mighthave been working with in the
evaluation cycle might not bepresent anymore, so there's
certainly timing at play.
What we've done at ProofMap,though, as I'll say, is we've
(12:11):
reduced the cost to really goafter these interviews
dramatically.
I mean, if you're going withjust a traditional marketing
agency, they don't reallyspecialize in this, so now
you're getting their rates as itrelates to all these different
types of advertising services,and you're not getting a lot of
value there.
Or if you're doing thisinternally, you're talking about
resources that typically isn'towned by one person.
(12:33):
So, when you think about theskills required to conduct this
whole process understandingwhich customers to go after,
like you're saying, being ableto have the skills to actually
do the interview which iscertainly a skill and then to
actually see it through, whetherit's on the video editing side,
content writing, knowing whatquestions to ask as it relates
to different parts of the buyerjourney, how salespeople use it,
(12:55):
so like that, investment is whytiming is such a big concern
for a lot of our customers.
But what we've done is becausewe've made that process seamless
.
What I like to say is anybusiness stakeholder that's
willing to talk, it's worthhaving that conversation.
So a lot of times that's justyou can look at like what are
some signals just with, likeyour QBRs, as your CSMs are
(13:17):
interacting with your clientseven implementation if they've
had a good implementation andyou have a stakeholder that's
super excited and they want totalk, we say let's just do it,
because these case studies arenot just static as well.
So you might get a lot out ofan interview with a stakeholder
that's been throughimplementation.
They might not have recognizedvalue yet, but we can go back
and refer to them or do anotherquick interview or just even
(13:40):
just get an email response orjust a recording transcript from
a QBR six months later and wecan still start to fill out that
case study and have it evolveover time too.
So timing wise, you know it'sreally just whenever strike
while the iron's hot.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, I definitely love that answer and I think
that a lot of listeners willhear you talking about oh, you
need to talk to someone who'seager to talk to you, and I
think most entrepreneursconvince themselves that they're
putting somebody out or they'reasking for too big of a favor
when it comes to obtaining these.
Is that sort of mindset shiftIs that something that you
encounter when you work withbusinesses, to say no, you're
(14:18):
happy customers, they would loveto show up for you.
What are?
What's that incentive structurelook like?
Or is it just pure goodwillthat we're playing on here?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I think I think my background being in sales,
like I'm so used to asking forfavors, that's just, that's just
part of a sales cycle a lot ofthe times.
So that was never, you know,like that's something that takes
a little bit of just educationand, um, when you're working
with, particularly those on themarketing side, um, just a
little bit of reinforcement.
We work with our clients, um,cause a lot of goodwill goes a
(14:48):
long way, but what we, what weeducate them on, is who's doing
the ask way, but what we, whatwe educate them on, is who's
doing the ask.
So the worst thing I think youcan do is it's kind of self
serving If you just have amarketing person that's never
actually communicated with theclient before asking for a case
study, you know what?
So what we do instead is we, wetake a list, we work with our
(15:08):
customers, we find a list of youknow what clients are you
thinking of going after and theymight have ways they might want
to do that, whether that's CSATscores or, you know, checking,
having like signals and QBRswhere the CSMs are like, hey, we
got something here.
Or just relationships thatexecutives have with other
executives, some of theirinitial customers, for example.
(15:31):
But then what we'll try to do isdecide who's the best person to
reach out, and that's usuallygot to be somebody that, when
they're asking for a favor,there's opportunity for a favor
to be returned.
So if a CSM is asking for thefavor one, there's already a
personal connection there withwhoever's working with the CSM,
so you're more likely to get ayes because you're doing it out
(15:52):
of goodwill for a human beingversus for a company, which is
just as humans.
That's what we're more inclinedto do.
But then that person that'sasking the favor can actually
return a favor down the line.
Maybe they give them extrasupport hours, maybe they can
actually give them tickets andupcoming conference.
Particularly if it's anexecutive, obviously there's a
lot more favors down the linethat can be happening versus
(16:13):
when it's a marketing rep.
You know there's not a lot of,not a lot of potential.
There is how I would say.
The other thing to consider toois when we're producing this
content.
One of the things that we do onbehalf of these stakeholders
that do the interviews is weproduce guest blogs, thought
leadership.
The interviews is we produceguest blogs, thought leadership.
This really, it takes only anextra, you know, 10 minutes
(16:41):
within the interview to just askfor a brain dump on a specific
topic, not related to thesolution or the vendor, but more
so just related to what'shappening in the space.
Give us some expertise as itrelates to your domain, because
these customers have a lot tooffer to your community and that
community is within your owncustomer community, it's within
your prospect community, andwhen you produce such great
(17:02):
content on their behalf and thenyou could post it as a guest
blog, they can repost it, theyget to promote their own
professional brand.
So there's some goodwill theregoing both ways and it's a more
mutually beneficial relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, that's a really cool strategy and some tactical
advice that I'm superappreciative of you giving us
here on the air, and you talk alot about the who and I think
that that's so important for us.
To come back to this You'vekind of mentioned it a few times
but I really want to spell itout for listeners is that's what
makes Proof Map so different?
Is I love the fact that youguys conduct the interview.
It's not the onus isn't on usas business owners to get in
(17:38):
front of our clients and kind ofpeer pressure them to say nice
things about us.
It is that third party that notonly knows how to get the most
out of it, but a third partythat knows how to put them at
ease and just naturally bringout that good stuff.
Talk to us about the importanceof that third party doing the
interview.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right.
So I mean, there's a couple ofthings that happen.
Well, one, let's think aboutthis You're asking a customer to
give up their time, which isvery valuable.
So, from the very get go, whena customer agrees to do a case
study for our clients, we getintroduced, and the introduction
is here's Proof Map.
(18:17):
This is our, you know.
We outsource this to aprofessional case study
production company and thatalready adds a level of
formality to the process.
It also just tells yourcustomer that you value their
time and that you're investingin making sure to get the most
out of it.
It also, frankly, because wecome in with a lot of guidelines
(18:38):
and it's clearly like we have aprocedure for this and we even
send them equipment there's justa higher level of commitment
that they take because they'relike, well, wow, this is for
real.
I'm not just jumping on a Zoomcall.
Here's a pre-brief.
I'm getting a package here acouple of days before the
interview.
So when we have these interviewswith our customers customers
(19:00):
they're ready to go, they'redressed nice, their background
looks great and they want tomake the most of it just as much
as we do.
Then, as far as the interviewitself, I can't stress this
enough and you understand thisfully too.
It's a skill and it's somethingthat we are doing all the time.
Whereas, uh to one, make, uh,the the client feel at ease,
(19:36):
understanding different types ofpersonalities and and what you
can push on and what you can bea little bit more honest about,
and trying to get more metricsversus what you might need to
more.
So, just kind of, you know,leave it bay and just try to get
the most out of the interviewand focus on different impacts,
um, perhaps things that are morevisceral.
(19:58):
But because we're doing thisholistically and we're thinking
about, hey, this one case studythat we're doing for a customer
isn't the end, all be all.
What we're doing is we'recommitted to a case study
campaign, we're thinking aboutthis client.
Okay, they're really focused onclient experience.
That's clearly what they careabout.
That's fine.
That can be the theme of thisinterview and that's going to.
There's going to be a lot ofvaluable content that can be
utilized for the latter stagesof a buyer journey, when
prospects are now committed to asolution and they like the
(20:21):
product, but now they're justtrying to understand what the
onboarding experience is like.
This case study will be reallyuseful for that and then on the
next case study you might havesomebody that's really willing,
already has reports pulled upand they have a lot of great
metrics and that can be greatfor more top level.
You know awareness andconsideration content, and
that's fine too.
So we think about each one ofthese interviews as a subset of
(20:42):
an overarching marketingcampaign.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, I love that.
Andy, as someone who interviewsentrepreneurs and business
owners and solution providersfor a living, I will say to me
that's very much part of yoursecret sauce is that you're not
just getting great customerfeedback on in video interviews,
but you're doing it for apurpose, and the fact that you
and it's probably a testament toyour experience leading up to
you founding this company is thefact that you understand the
(21:06):
sales cycle, the sales process,the fulfillment process, so it
shines through in the way thatyou operate.
I do want to switch gears alittle bit and talk to you about
the elephant in the room.
It's come up in so many of ourconversations this year, and
that is, of course, AI.
So many companies are askingthemselves how do we incorporate
AI?
How does AI make our processesmore efficient or higher quality
(21:27):
?
All of that, Talk to us abouthow AI plays into the work that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, so so much.
But at the same time, one thingthat I've tried to do as far as
how I communicate our value toour prospects and our clients it
, you know, it's, it's.
It's kind of ironic.
I actually tried not to mentionAI too much, because I really
believe AI.
I mean that's just the standardIf you're if you're a new
(21:51):
agency or a new SaaS company andyou're starting a company now
and you're not leveraging AI.
I mean that would just befoolish.
So really, what I try to do ismore focus on customer
experience, what's the outcomes?
And really, like AI is more ofa benefit to me and my ability
to scale my business than it isto my customers.
(22:12):
At the end of the day, whetherI have fully automated my
backend processes with AI, whichI have for the most part, or
I'm offshoring resources and wehave people working overtime to
produce the outcome for ourcustomers, they don't really
care.
So what I like to focus on ismore.
So just always be thinkingabout what are the outcomes that
(22:34):
you're chasing and then reverseengineer from there with how
you can leverage AI as much aspossible without reducing the
quality of the outputs.
What I also think it's done forcompanies like myself that are
starting out is.
It's just a true advantage.
So ProofMmap is a company that'sfocusing on customer case
(22:56):
studies and producing as muchcontent from these interviews as
possible, and at the momentit's a service and it's highly
productized in the sense that Ican have a commercial model
that's very similar to justgetting a software subscription.
Over time we're going tocontinue to productize what
we're doing and eventually,ideally, we'll have an actual
application that we're going tomarket with and hear within the
(23:17):
next six months to a year.
But as far as the customerexperience, it's not really
going to be any different.
They're still going to get thesame outcome.
It'll just allow me to scale mybusiness.
So I think that it's done forentrepreneurs like myself,
particularly those that are notnecessarily as technical.
I do have a more technicalco-founder that's assisting on a
(23:37):
part-time basis and helpbridging some of the gap as far
as the backend stuff goes.
But I don't feel as muchpressure to go to market with an
actual software applicationversus being able to still keep
this as a productized serviceand focus on customer value and
then just bridge that gap oncewe figure out the right product
to produce.
(23:57):
And that's definitely been aninteresting shift in the way I
think entrepreneurs can startcompanies in 2025.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yes, I'm so glad that you said it that way, Andy.
I'm so appreciative of the waythat you think about and the way
that you talk about AI.
So many people are focused onthe front end of the way that
you think about and the way thatyou talk about AI.
So many people are focused onthe front end of we have to say
that we are an AI company,whereas all of us pretty much I
mean it's almost a universaltruth at this point is that we
can all use AI to streamlinethings on the back end so that
we can provide better service,more personable service, to free
(24:26):
up our time in those ways.
So I really appreciate that youbrought up a word that I think
you and I both knew we'd go herein today's conversation, which
is productized services.
I think that that's a new wayfor people to view the types of
companies that they can launch,or even that they can add on to
what it is that they're alreadydoing.
Talk to us more about what aproductized service is, Andy.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I think I was in SaaS and when I figured I'd
started my own company, it wouldhave to be a software company,
and that can be pretty dauntingwhen you're more of a business
co-founder, more of a salesco-founder like myself.
More appealing because suddenlyyou could start to get margins
(25:16):
that are similar to that of asoftware company and you could
start to scale in a similar waywithout actually having a login
application from the customerstandpoint.
And so that's where I thinkproductized services is
something that is actuallypretty exciting, and I think
entrepreneurs should considerthat as an avenue to get into
eventually launching a SASproduct.
One thing, one reason why Ilike this approach too, is as we
(25:41):
start to build the wireframefor our application, we're
getting customer data from theget go, versus if we, if we had
to build a product to start, whoknows?
I mean there's there's a lot ofthings that we would have
over-engineered.
There's a lot of customerfeedback that we would have
gotten too late and invested alot of time and energy going one
direction.
(26:02):
There's this concept of an MVP,which is just a best practice so
that you can just start to getmore customer input.
Well, now the MVP.
You don't even actually need anMVP.
You can still provide aproductized service and start to
at least get the business modelup and running.
And so all my go-to-marketstuff, all my marketing, getting
(26:23):
the brand going, that that wasable to get started before
actually having a SaaSapplication and that's really
exciting.
And now I have customers.
Proof Map is the idea probably.
I started working on the ideain September.
I started taking pilotsNovember, december and January,
february.
We're getting our firstgeneration of customers and
(26:47):
every month I'm learning exactlylike I'm learning.
I'm getting more and morefeedback for how we could
actually productize this in asoftware application.
But for the time being, we canbridge that gap with a
productized service offering,which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I love that approach.
I think that that will result.
If more people do this, it willresult in better products at
the end of the day, becauseyou're really refining all of
that.
Which makes me want to ask youon a really macro level, because
you've seen the SaaS world fromthe inside and now you're
seeing it from the outside,helping them stand out, and I
would argue that one of thedownstream effects of AI's
(27:20):
adoption is that SaaS companiesare popping up literally every
day.
So many of them are just GPTwrappers, because it's never
been easier to build on top of areally amazing platform and
foundation.
So, with that in mind, andy,what's your perspective on where
SaaS is going this year?
I love the fact that yourcompany brings the human back
into the world of all these SaaScompanies, but what's your take
(27:43):
on the direction that we'reheading in?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, let me think about that.
So I think this is in keep inmind.
This is coming from a I'm not atechnical co-founder or founder
, so I don't want to be likediminishing the value of that,
but at the same time, what whatAI has done is.
You know if somebody, ifsomebody, got access to all my
(28:07):
Miro boards and every all thedocumentation and how we're, you
know how we're instructing ourGPTs and training our models I
should say agents they couldrecreate what Proof Map is built
from a technical perspective.
You know in a matter of daysnow Like you can just build
applications so quickly, buildapplications so quickly.
(28:33):
So what that means is the focusfor me is more so on the
go-to-market, the customerexperiences and all of the
underlying processes between thetechnical aspects of the
business, and that is where Ibelieve companies will be able
to differentiate.
So there's a lot more investmentthat I'm taking into, you know,
having the right customeronboarding process and investing
in the right project managementsystems, getting a headstart on
(28:57):
some of the things on like adelivery standpoint, with how we
integrate.
You know we're invested insales salesforcecom as our
platform, which, for a startup,is, it seems, you know, like a
crazy investment to make versusyou know getting started with
like a hub spot, but just itseems you know like a crazy
investment to make versus youknow getting started with like a
HubSpot, but just knowing thatyou know those underlying
processes are going to be soimportant Because from a
technical standpoint, yeah, likeonce you know another company
(29:20):
could come in and they, theycould probably have a solution
that has parity pretty quickly.
But it's going to be all theother processes and how you
invest in SEO and how you investin getting social proof for my
company in itself that's goingto be the difference maker in
order to sort of build a moatand continue to be competitive
(29:43):
in the long run.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, Andy, I'll tell you what.
It has been so much fun todayhearing not only your thoughts
on social proof and gettingcustomer stories and all of
those things, but also here inthis part of the conversation,
hearing the way that yourentrepreneurial mind thinks
about not only what you're doingtoday, but laying those future
plans.
It's really cool the way thatyou've spelled that out for us
in today's conversation.
That's why I'm very excited toask you this final question that
(30:05):
I ask at the end of everyepisode, and that is what's your
best piece of advice?
You're not just a subjectmatter expert.
You are one of us.
You are a fellow entrepreneur.
So, knowing that we're beinglistened to by both
entrepreneurs and entrepreneursat all different levels of their
business growth journey, what'sthat one thing that you want to
leave them with today?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, I guess I'll try to just speak to people that
are thinking aboutentrepreneurship.
That might be more, you know,might be similar to my mind, my
sort of ADHD mind, which isreally this concept of sort of
sell then build, which I thinksome people could hear that and
(30:45):
think that might be risky or itmight be disingenuous.
What I mean by that is, youknow, with AI you can build so
quickly.
So I think one of the thingsthat has really expedited our
growth at Proofmap is thisconcept of just going to market
with your ideas.
(31:05):
And, for example, when I wasjust doing the pilots in
November and December, I reallydidn't have anything of
substance other than somewireframes, other than a vision
and a theory.
But I was going to market with,you know, free pilots so that I
could start working withcustomers and just seeing if the
value proposition wouldresonate.
(31:26):
And once you know we, I got afirst few of those pilots signed
up, then you know you get offthe call and you know you have
an amazing sales pitch and thecustomer eats it up and they
want to sign on and they'reexcited to get started with you.
And then you hang up and you'relike, okay, now I got to
actually deliver this, andthat's okay.
There's nothing that providesmore pressure and incentive and
(31:48):
motivation than actually havingreal customers that are excited
about what it is that you'reselling and then figure out how
you can build from there.
I think before that would havebeen a little too risky in order
to do that, but now, in thisday and age, there's a lot more
opportunity to sell than build,so that would be my advice.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Boom, that is good advice.
And, andy, I'll tell you what.
In 1100 episodes, I know howdifficult it is to give original
, unique advice, and I feel likeyou nailed it there.
I'm not sure that's advicewe've ever heard on the air, so
I'm super appreciative of that.
I also love the work thatyou're doing.
I know that listeners are goingto be keen to see it with their
own eyes.
I've had the great pleasure ofgoing through and seeing is
(32:27):
believing.
Understanding your process isso clearly laid out, the
deliverables, the way that youoperate.
It's so cool to see everythingthat Proofmap is doing.
So, andy, for listeners whowant to check out all that great
work, drop those links on us.
Where should listeners go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, proofmapcom, you'll learn everything about us
, and then follow me on LinkedInAndy Stauffer.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes, listeners, you already know the drill.
You don't have to go very farto find those links.
Check down below.
No matter where it is thatyou're tuning into today's
episode, you'll find those linksdown below in the show notes.
It's super easy, thoughProofmapcom, or you see Andy's
name in the title of thisepisode.
You can find him personally onLinkedIn to continue the
conversation, because this year,if you want to start standing
(33:10):
out, this is such a clearlydifferentiated way to stand out
and have the power of Andy'smind, his team and his
experiences leading the way foryou to implement these customer
stories and literally everyaspect of your marketing, your
sales, your onboarding.
So, andy, on behalf of myselfand all the listeners worldwide,
thanks so much for coming onthe show today.
Thank you hey, it's Brian hereand thanks for tuning in to yet
(33:34):
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat the wantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to givea shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
(33:57):
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes, these are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
(34:19):
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always, every Monday, wednesday.
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and there's
something that I think we've allexperienced when it comes to
looking at other businesses isthat we've gone to their website
and we've thought to ourselvesholy cow, this business has so
much social proof.
Their clients, their customersseem to love them.
Why don't I have that samefeedback in that same social
(00:23):
proof?
Well, you're in for a treattoday, because we've got an
incredible guest and a fellowentrepreneur who's going to
highlight all the ways that wecan actually take that customer
social proof seriously andimplement it for our own
businesses.
So let me introduce you totoday's guest.
His name is Andy Stauffer.
Andy is the former VP of salesand marketing at CloudCoach,
which is an enterprise SaaScompany recently acquired by
(00:46):
Maine Capital.
Today, andy is the founder of avery cool company that can
benefit all of us.
Wait till you hear about allthe great work that they do.
He's the founder of ProofMap,leveraging his experience as a
startup sales rep and ago-to-market executive to
address a distinct challenge forgrowing SaaS companies without
full marketing teams maximizingthe impacts of social proof.
(01:07):
If you've ever thought thatyour marketing efforts and your
sales efforts are not doing asmuch as they should be doing.
Well, that's why Andy's entirebusiness exists.
We're all going to learn a lotfrom him today.
I'm excited about this one, soI'm not going to say anything
else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Andy Stauffer.
Else, let's dive straight intomy interview with Andy Stauffer.
(01:29):
All right, andy, I am so veryexcited that you're here with us
today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, it's great to be here.
Heck, yes, I'm excited to heareven more about your business.
I've been researching it aheadof the two of us getting
together, but before we getthere, you've got to take us
beyond the bio.
Who's Andy?
How'd you start doing all thesecool things?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, so my career has primarily been in startup
land.
I started as employee numbereight or nine at a growing
enterprise SaaS company.
I was the first sales repreporting directly to the
founder.
He kind of took me under hiswing and yeah, I've been doing
that ever since.
It's kind of an interestingjourney how I got to Proofmap?
Because I wasn't necessarilygood at sales.
(02:14):
I was 23 years old, straightout of college but I was just
really close to the customerexperience.
In those days when your salesare about a small company, you
might be also helping withsupport.
Funny story my fiance wasactually.
She was on the onboarding teamand it was a real Jim and Pam
(02:35):
situation at the time.
But essentially I also.
When I would sell a deal Iwould quickly hear how that
experience was if I oversold.
Those could be some roughnights if I oversold and it
wasn't a great fit.
But it was a good, just way oflearning through osmosis how to
recognize what the customerexperience is and then
(02:56):
constantly weaving that in to mysales process.
So I started as a sales repthere.
The company grew, I moved up tohead of sales and then
eventually VP of sales andmarketing and the company was
acquired just about a year and ahalf ago and that was a good
celebration for us.
And then we took that time totravel the world.
(03:17):
I actually spent eight monthstraveling through Asia before
coming back to Austin where Istarted Proof Pap.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, I love that overview, Andy, especially
because I really appreciate thefact that your story starts in
sales, because I think mostpeople don't realize that the
entire goal of Social Proof, theentire goal of these client
success stories and sharing themwith the world, is that our
sales and marketing are moreeffective.
Talk to us about where, alongthe journey, you realized wait,
social social proof.
(03:43):
This is one of the secretingredients when it comes to
sales.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah I mean.
So I'm going to go back to thevery beginning once again.
So I wouldn't consider myself anatural salesperson, and that's
coming from somebody that's nowstarted my own company and also
was previously VP of sales,started my own company and also
was previously VP of sales.
But you know, I remember when Ifirst took the role and I was
(04:09):
kind of irked, I wasn't sure ifI wanted to do it because I just
had this connotation as far aslike sleazy used car salesman.
But particularly in the B2Benterprise SaaS space, it's very
consultative and I found thatsocial proof in having the voice
of the customer being the coremessage and really working with
(04:29):
prospects to help solve theirproblems was actually very
fulfilling.
Speak to actual customerexperiences when dealing with
prospect objections or even inthe discovery calls and kind of
calling on other industryleaders that were peers of mine
(04:52):
or I would say, customers ofmine, because otherwise you
could be caught being like a23-year-old BDR and you're
speaking to an executive at,let's say, a VP of professional
services trying to give thembest practice advice on billable
utilization, and there's justno credibility there.
(05:12):
So customer stories were just away for me to overcome that and
then, as we started to grow andwe started to hire more sales
reps that were reporting to me,I realized it was a challenge to
recreate that, because theyweren't coming through this
small startup doing everythinganymore.
Now they were just coming onboard and they were more
specialized roles.
And in order to maintain socialproof as our lead advantage in
(05:38):
the sales process, I needed toinvest more in customer stories,
and so that happened verynaturally at CloudCoach.
And then as I came back, youknow, after taking a year off
after the sale of CloudCoach andkind of looking into where
could I make the greatest impactfor companies just like mine at
CloudCoach, social proof wasthe obvious answer for me.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, andy, when you articulate that, one thing that
really stands out to me is thefact that you say customer
stories we're not just merelytalking about reviews or
testimonials, which I feel likea lot of businesses, they'll
email a customer and say, hey,can you send me a review or a
one-liner?
Talk to me about thatdifference.
It just seems to me like youreally embrace the story, part
of the social proof that we'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, I mean to look at it that way.
I think about who ProofMaps ICPis as well.
Our ideal customer is reallymore so B2B customers that have
a more enterprise-like salescycle, meaning it's a lot of
touch points, there's discovery,there's demos, there's
proposals, there's gettingdifferent stakeholders involved
(06:45):
and thus there's also typicallya higher contract value.
But what that means you mighthave a startup that's doing 10
million in ARR, but it's notlike they have thousands of
clients that they could refer to.
And that's where you see someof these B2C or more so targeted
towards SMB high velocity salescycles.
They can afford to go after itfrom like a volume play and they
(07:07):
can have a ton of reviews.
They can have a wall of fame ontheir website and there's a lot
of applications out there forthat.
But for my clientele it's moreso.
You know you have a subset ofyour best customers and you're
starting to understand where youhave product market fit and you
got to go a little bit furtherand that's where customer
stories go in.
So we work with our clients toactually interview their
(07:30):
customers and take thoseinterviews and get more out of
them.
So it's more of a volume playsprouting from each individual
customer than it is trying toget hundreds of case studies or
hundreds of reviews.
We have a conversation withthem, we understand really how
our customer solution addressedtheir customers' problems and
(07:52):
then tell that story frombeginning to end.
So what was life like before?
What were the best solutionsand sometimes they're not even
what you might have expected inthe initial sales cycle, after
you get familiar with theproduct and then what were the
actual impacts of solving thoseproblems?
And then, of course, with thatcomes sort of this world that
didn't even exist before, thatyou're trying to communicate
(08:15):
with your prospects.
Now that you've solved yourproblems, what are the new
opportunities that you have?
What are the things that youcan start thinking about that
you were so inundated withbefore?
And that's a story and that'swhat we try to replicate, and
then also think about how wecould replicate that in many
different formats, which we cantalk about later too.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I definitely want to go there with you, Andy,
because that's actuallyprobably my favorite part about
your website, proofmapcom, whichwe'll talk about at the end of
today's episode.
But I really love that graphicwhere you have the customer
interview at the center and thenit branches into.
You can generate a case studyfrom there.
You can generate sales slidesfrom their video testimonials.
We've all seen those companieson Facebook and Instagram that
(08:52):
have customers speaking for themon their behalf about how
awesome they are in their socialads.
The fact that all of that stemsfrom that one thing I've
obviously seen your website I'dlove for you to paint that
picture for our listeners stemsfrom that one thing I've
obviously seen your website.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I'd love for you to paint that picture for our
listeners.
Sure, yeah.
So one of the challenges thatgrowing SaaS companies face
because they don't have a fullcontent marketing team is they
simply don't have the capacityto produce as much as possible.
And what I mean by that is whenyou have an hour interview with
a customer.
There's a lot of great datathere.
There's raw video, of course.
Then you have the transcript.
(09:27):
If you go after that interviewthe right way, you can start to
have not just one case study onyour website, or maybe you have
one two and a half minute sortof highlight video, but you can
start to think about how we canactually get more out of that
interview.
So I always say to my customersif you just have one case today
on your website, that you'rewasting a lot of potential and
(09:49):
you're not having as much impactfrom that conversation that you
could have.
Look at it this way we thinkabout a buyer journey for SaaS
and in the context from asalesperson or a marketing
person, there's this funnel andon the marketing side you're
thinking about awareness all theway through consideration to
the decision process, which ismore on the sales front.
(10:10):
But if you just have a casestudy on your website, that's
somebody that is already new totype in your brand, or they're
going to your website.
That's somebody that alreadyhas interest.
They're already consideringdifferent solutions, but that
case study is not being utilizedwithin the awareness stage,
which is when you might beadvertising on LinkedIn, and
(10:31):
these are people that's withinyour ICP but they're not aware
of you.
And now that format for howthat case study should be
utilized is completely different.
You should be doing littlesnippets, because they're not
familiar with their brand,they're not going to make that
investment to go to your websiteyet.
So now we're thinking aboutquotes, we're thinking about
small, short video snippets, andthe topics need to be more
(10:52):
centered around, you know,addressing specific challenges
or things that might be moreeducational, so that you can
provide value to them, to getthem to view the video or to
click and download an ebook.
So that's the way we startthinking about it, which is like
not just looking at casestudies for one stage of your
buyer journey.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But how can we go up the funnel and down the funnel?
Yeah, it's so much funfollowing this process because
obviously the interview is suchan important part.
But, Andy, I'll be honest,where my head goes.
Hearing you talk about this isholy cow.
I wouldn't even know who tointerview.
I'm so interested to understandthe outreach process and how
you even make that list, BecauseI'm even thinking about the
specifics of when do I interviewthem.
(11:32):
Is it when they've hadsuccessful completion?
Is it a month later, so they'vehad time to really soak in all
the good results?
Is it in the middle of it, whenexcitement is the highest?
Talk to us about that outreachprocess and how and when we
figure out who we should betalking to.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, so there's some obvious things to do.
You don't want to go too soonbecause they might not have
recognized value yet.
You don't want to be too late,because stakeholders change,
particularly in the B2B space,and the decision maker or the
executive sponsor that you mighthave been working with in the
evaluation cycle might not bepresent anymore, so there's
certainly timing at play.
What we've done at ProofMap,though, as I'll say, is we've
(12:11):
reduced the cost to really goafter these interviews
dramatically.
I mean, if you're going withjust a traditional marketing
agency, they don't reallyspecialize in this, so now
you're getting their rates as itrelates to all these different
types of advertising services,and you're not getting a lot of
value there.
Or if you're doing thisinternally, you're talking about
resources that typically isn'towned by one person.
(12:33):
So, when you think about theskills required to conduct this
whole process understandingwhich customers to go after,
like you're saying, being ableto have the skills to actually
do the interview which iscertainly a skill and then to
actually see it through, whetherit's on the video editing side,
content writing, knowing whatquestions to ask as it relates
to different parts of the buyerjourney, how salespeople use it,
(12:55):
so like that, investment is whytiming is such a big concern
for a lot of our customers.
But what we've done is becausewe've made that process seamless
.
What I like to say is anybusiness stakeholder that's
willing to talk, it's worthhaving that conversation.
So a lot of times that's justyou can look at like what are
some signals just with, likeyour QBRs, as your CSMs are
(13:17):
interacting with your clientseven implementation if they've
had a good implementation andyou have a stakeholder that's
super excited and they want totalk, we say let's just do it,
because these case studies arenot just static as well.
So you might get a lot out ofan interview with a stakeholder
that's been throughimplementation.
They might not have recognizedvalue yet, but we can go back
and refer to them or do anotherquick interview or just even
(13:40):
just get an email response orjust a recording transcript from
a QBR six months later and wecan still start to fill out that
case study and have it evolveover time too.
So timing wise, you know it'sreally just whenever strike
while the iron's hot.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, I definitely love that answer and I think
that a lot of listeners willhear you talking about oh, you
need to talk to someone who'seager to talk to you, and I
think most entrepreneursconvince themselves that they're
putting somebody out or they'reasking for too big of a favor
when it comes to obtaining these.
Is that sort of mindset shiftIs that something that you
encounter when you work withbusinesses, to say no, you're
(14:18):
happy customers, they would loveto show up for you.
What are?
What's that incentive structurelook like?
Or is it just pure goodwillthat we're playing on here?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I think I think my background being in sales,
like I'm so used to asking forfavors, that's just, that's just
part of a sales cycle a lot ofthe times.
So that was never, you know,like that's something that takes
a little bit of just educationand, um, when you're working
with, particularly those on themarketing side, um, just a
little bit of reinforcement.
We work with our clients, um,cause a lot of goodwill goes a
(14:48):
long way, but what we, what weeducate them on, is who's doing
the ask way, but what we, whatwe educate them on, is who's
doing the ask.
So the worst thing I think youcan do is it's kind of self
serving If you just have amarketing person that's never
actually communicated with theclient before asking for a case
study, you know what?
So what we do instead is we, wetake a list, we work with our
(15:08):
customers, we find a list of youknow what clients are you
thinking of going after and theymight have ways they might want
to do that, whether that's CSATscores or, you know, checking,
having like signals and QBRswhere the CSMs are like, hey, we
got something here.
Or just relationships thatexecutives have with other
executives, some of theirinitial customers, for example.
(15:31):
But then what we'll try to do isdecide who's the best person to
reach out, and that's usuallygot to be somebody that, when
they're asking for a favor,there's opportunity for a favor
to be returned.
So if a CSM is asking for thefavor one, there's already a
personal connection there withwhoever's working with the CSM,
so you're more likely to get ayes because you're doing it out
(15:52):
of goodwill for a human beingversus for a company, which is
just as humans.
That's what we're more inclinedto do.
But then that person that'sasking the favor can actually
return a favor down the line.
Maybe they give them extrasupport hours, maybe they can
actually give them tickets andupcoming conference.
Particularly if it's anexecutive, obviously there's a
lot more favors down the linethat can be happening versus
(16:13):
when it's a marketing rep.
You know there's not a lot of,not a lot of potential.
There is how I would say.
The other thing to consider toois when we're producing this
content.
One of the things that we do onbehalf of these stakeholders
that do the interviews is weproduce guest blogs, thought
leadership.
The interviews is we produceguest blogs, thought leadership.
This really, it takes only anextra, you know, 10 minutes
(16:41):
within the interview to just askfor a brain dump on a specific
topic, not related to thesolution or the vendor, but more
so just related to what'shappening in the space.
Give us some expertise as itrelates to your domain, because
these customers have a lot tooffer to your community and that
community is within your owncustomer community, it's within
your prospect community, andwhen you produce such great
(17:02):
content on their behalf and thenyou could post it as a guest
blog, they can repost it, theyget to promote their own
professional brand.
So there's some goodwill theregoing both ways and it's a more
mutually beneficial relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, that's a really cool strategy and some tactical
advice that I'm superappreciative of you giving us
here on the air, and you talk alot about the who and I think
that that's so important for us.
To come back to this You'vekind of mentioned it a few times
but I really want to spell itout for listeners is that's what
makes Proof Map so different?
Is I love the fact that youguys conduct the interview.
It's not the onus isn't on usas business owners to get in
(17:38):
front of our clients and kind ofpeer pressure them to say nice
things about us.
It is that third party that notonly knows how to get the most
out of it, but a third partythat knows how to put them at
ease and just naturally bringout that good stuff.
Talk to us about the importanceof that third party doing the
interview.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right.
So I mean, there's a couple ofthings that happen.
Well, one, let's think aboutthis You're asking a customer to
give up their time, which isvery valuable.
So, from the very get go, whena customer agrees to do a case
study for our clients, we getintroduced, and the introduction
is here's Proof Map.
(18:17):
This is our, you know.
We outsource this to aprofessional case study
production company and thatalready adds a level of
formality to the process.
It also just tells yourcustomer that you value their
time and that you're investingin making sure to get the most
out of it.
It also, frankly, because wecome in with a lot of guidelines
(18:38):
and it's clearly like we have aprocedure for this and we even
send them equipment there's justa higher level of commitment
that they take because they'relike, well, wow, this is for
real.
I'm not just jumping on a Zoomcall.
Here's a pre-brief.
I'm getting a package here acouple of days before the
interview.
So when we have these interviewswith our customers customers
(19:00):
they're ready to go, they'redressed nice, their background
looks great and they want tomake the most of it just as much
as we do.
Then, as far as the interviewitself, I can't stress this
enough and you understand thisfully too.
It's a skill and it's somethingthat we are doing all the time.
Whereas, uh to one, make, uh,the the client feel at ease,
(19:36):
understanding different types ofpersonalities and and what you
can push on and what you can bea little bit more honest about,
and trying to get more metricsversus what you might need to
more.
So, just kind of, you know,leave it bay and just try to get
the most out of the interviewand focus on different impacts,
um, perhaps things that are morevisceral.
(19:58):
But because we're doing thisholistically and we're thinking
about, hey, this one case studythat we're doing for a customer
isn't the end, all be all.
What we're doing is we'recommitted to a case study
campaign, we're thinking aboutthis client.
Okay, they're really focused onclient experience.
That's clearly what they careabout.
That's fine.
That can be the theme of thisinterview and that's going to.
There's going to be a lot ofvaluable content that can be
utilized for the latter stagesof a buyer journey, when
prospects are now committed to asolution and they like the
(20:21):
product, but now they're justtrying to understand what the
onboarding experience is like.
This case study will be reallyuseful for that and then on the
next case study you might havesomebody that's really willing,
already has reports pulled upand they have a lot of great
metrics and that can be greatfor more top level.
You know awareness andconsideration content, and
that's fine too.
So we think about each one ofthese interviews as a subset of
(20:42):
an overarching marketingcampaign.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, I love that.
Andy, as someone who interviewsentrepreneurs and business
owners and solution providersfor a living, I will say to me
that's very much part of yoursecret sauce is that you're not
just getting great customerfeedback on in video interviews,
but you're doing it for apurpose, and the fact that you
and it's probably a testament toyour experience leading up to
you founding this company is thefact that you understand the
(21:06):
sales cycle, the sales process,the fulfillment process, so it
shines through in the way thatyou operate.
I do want to switch gears alittle bit and talk to you about
the elephant in the room.
It's come up in so many of ourconversations this year, and
that is, of course, AI.
So many companies are askingthemselves how do we incorporate
AI?
How does AI make our processesmore efficient or higher quality
(21:27):
?
All of that, Talk to us abouthow AI plays into the work that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, so so much.
But at the same time, one thingthat I've tried to do as far as
how I communicate our value toour prospects and our clients it
, you know, it's, it's.
It's kind of ironic.
I actually tried not to mentionAI too much, because I really
believe AI.
I mean that's just the standardIf you're if you're a new
(21:51):
agency or a new SaaS company andyou're starting a company now
and you're not leveraging AI.
I mean that would just befoolish.
So really, what I try to do ismore focus on customer
experience, what's the outcomes?
And really, like AI is more ofa benefit to me and my ability
to scale my business than it isto my customers.
(22:12):
At the end of the day, whetherI have fully automated my
backend processes with AI, whichI have for the most part, or
I'm offshoring resources and wehave people working overtime to
produce the outcome for ourcustomers, they don't really
care.
So what I like to focus on ismore.
So just always be thinkingabout what are the outcomes that
(22:34):
you're chasing and then reverseengineer from there with how
you can leverage AI as much aspossible without reducing the
quality of the outputs.
What I also think it's done forcompanies like myself that are
starting out is.
It's just a true advantage.
So ProofMmap is a company that'sfocusing on customer case
(22:56):
studies and producing as muchcontent from these interviews as
possible, and at the momentit's a service and it's highly
productized in the sense that Ican have a commercial model
that's very similar to justgetting a software subscription.
Over time we're going tocontinue to productize what
we're doing and eventually,ideally, we'll have an actual
application that we're going tomarket with and hear within the
(23:17):
next six months to a year.
But as far as the customerexperience, it's not really
going to be any different.
They're still going to get thesame outcome.
It'll just allow me to scale mybusiness.
So I think that it's done forentrepreneurs like myself,
particularly those that are notnecessarily as technical.
I do have a more technicalco-founder that's assisting on a
(23:37):
part-time basis and helpbridging some of the gap as far
as the backend stuff goes.
But I don't feel as muchpressure to go to market with an
actual software applicationversus being able to still keep
this as a productized serviceand focus on customer value and
then just bridge that gap oncewe figure out the right product
to produce.
(23:57):
And that's definitely been aninteresting shift in the way I
think entrepreneurs can startcompanies in 2025.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yes, I'm so glad that you said it that way, Andy.
I'm so appreciative of the waythat you think about and the way
that you talk about AI.
So many people are focused onthe front end of the way that
you think about and the way thatyou talk about AI.
So many people are focused onthe front end of we have to say
that we are an AI company,whereas all of us pretty much I
mean it's almost a universaltruth at this point is that we
can all use AI to streamlinethings on the back end so that
we can provide better service,more personable service, to free
(24:26):
up our time in those ways.
So I really appreciate that youbrought up a word that I think
you and I both knew we'd go herein today's conversation, which
is productized services.
I think that that's a new wayfor people to view the types of
companies that they can launch,or even that they can add on to
what it is that they're alreadydoing.
Talk to us more about what aproductized service is, Andy.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I think I was in SaaS and when I figured I'd
started my own company, it wouldhave to be a software company,
and that can be pretty dauntingwhen you're more of a business
co-founder, more of a salesco-founder like myself.
More appealing because suddenlyyou could start to get margins
(25:16):
that are similar to that of asoftware company and you could
start to scale in a similar waywithout actually having a login
application from the customerstandpoint.
And so that's where I thinkproductized services is
something that is actuallypretty exciting, and I think
entrepreneurs should considerthat as an avenue to get into
eventually launching a SASproduct.
One thing, one reason why Ilike this approach too, is as we
(25:41):
start to build the wireframefor our application, we're
getting customer data from theget go, versus if we, if we had
to build a product to start, whoknows?
I mean there's there's a lot ofthings that we would have
over-engineered.
There's a lot of customerfeedback that we would have
gotten too late and invested alot of time and energy going one
direction.
(26:02):
There's this concept of an MVP,which is just a best practice so
that you can just start to getmore customer input.
Well, now the MVP.
You don't even actually need anMVP.
You can still provide aproductized service and start to
at least get the business modelup and running.
And so all my go-to-marketstuff, all my marketing, getting
(26:23):
the brand going, that that wasable to get started before
actually having a SaaSapplication and that's really
exciting.
And now I have customers.
Proof Map is the idea probably.
I started working on the ideain September.
I started taking pilotsNovember, december and January,
february.
We're getting our firstgeneration of customers and
(26:47):
every month I'm learning exactlylike I'm learning.
I'm getting more and morefeedback for how we could
actually productize this in asoftware application.
But for the time being, we canbridge that gap with a
productized service offering,which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I love that approach.
I think that that will result.
If more people do this, it willresult in better products at
the end of the day, becauseyou're really refining all of
that.
Which makes me want to ask youon a really macro level, because
you've seen the SaaS world fromthe inside and now you're
seeing it from the outside,helping them stand out, and I
would argue that one of thedownstream effects of AI's
(27:20):
adoption is that SaaS companiesare popping up literally every
day.
So many of them are just GPTwrappers, because it's never
been easier to build on top of areally amazing platform and
foundation.
So, with that in mind, andy,what's your perspective on where
SaaS is going this year?
I love the fact that yourcompany brings the human back
into the world of all these SaaScompanies, but what's your take
(27:43):
on the direction that we'reheading in?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, let me think about that.
So I think this is in keep inmind.
This is coming from a I'm not atechnical co-founder or founder
, so I don't want to be likediminishing the value of that,
but at the same time, what whatAI has done is.
You know if somebody, ifsomebody, got access to all my
(28:07):
Miro boards and every all thedocumentation and how we're, you
know how we're instructing ourGPTs and training our models I
should say agents they couldrecreate what Proof Map is built
from a technical perspective.
You know in a matter of daysnow Like you can just build
applications so quickly, buildapplications so quickly.
(28:33):
So what that means is the focusfor me is more so on the
go-to-market, the customerexperiences and all of the
underlying processes between thetechnical aspects of the
business, and that is where Ibelieve companies will be able
to differentiate.
So there's a lot more investmentthat I'm taking into, you know,
having the right customeronboarding process and investing
in the right project managementsystems, getting a headstart on
(28:57):
some of the things on like adelivery standpoint, with how we
integrate.
You know we're invested insales salesforcecom as our
platform, which, for a startup,is, it seems, you know, like a
crazy investment to make versusyou know getting started with
like a hub spot, but just itseems you know like a crazy
investment to make versus youknow getting started with like a
HubSpot, but just knowing thatyou know those underlying
processes are going to be soimportant Because from a
technical standpoint, yeah, likeonce you know another company
(29:20):
could come in and they, theycould probably have a solution
that has parity pretty quickly.
But it's going to be all theother processes and how you
invest in SEO and how you investin getting social proof for my
company in itself that's goingto be the difference maker in
order to sort of build a moatand continue to be competitive
(29:43):
in the long run.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, Andy, I'll tell you what.
It has been so much fun todayhearing not only your thoughts
on social proof and gettingcustomer stories and all of
those things, but also here inthis part of the conversation,
hearing the way that yourentrepreneurial mind thinks
about not only what you're doingtoday, but laying those future
plans.
It's really cool the way thatyou've spelled that out for us
in today's conversation.
That's why I'm very excited toask you this final question that
(30:05):
I ask at the end of everyepisode, and that is what's your
best piece of advice?
You're not just a subjectmatter expert.
You are one of us.
You are a fellow entrepreneur.
So, knowing that we're beinglistened to by both
entrepreneurs and entrepreneursat all different levels of their
business growth journey, what'sthat one thing that you want to
leave them with today?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, I guess I'll try to just speak to people that
are thinking aboutentrepreneurship.
That might be more, you know,might be similar to my mind, my
sort of ADHD mind, which isreally this concept of sort of
sell then build, which I thinksome people could hear that and
(30:45):
think that might be risky or itmight be disingenuous.
What I mean by that is, youknow, with AI you can build so
quickly.
So I think one of the thingsthat has really expedited our
growth at Proofmap is thisconcept of just going to market
with your ideas.
(31:05):
And, for example, when I wasjust doing the pilots in
November and December, I reallydidn't have anything of
substance other than somewireframes, other than a vision
and a theory.
But I was going to market with,you know, free pilots so that I
could start working withcustomers and just seeing if the
value proposition wouldresonate.
(31:26):
And once you know we, I got afirst few of those pilots signed
up, then you know you get offthe call and you know you have
an amazing sales pitch and thecustomer eats it up and they
want to sign on and they'reexcited to get started with you.
And then you hang up and you'relike, okay, now I got to
actually deliver this, andthat's okay.
There's nothing that providesmore pressure and incentive and
(31:48):
motivation than actually havingreal customers that are excited
about what it is that you'reselling and then figure out how
you can build from there.
I think before that would havebeen a little too risky in order
to do that, but now, in thisday and age, there's a lot more
opportunity to sell than build,so that would be my advice.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Boom, that is good advice.
And, andy, I'll tell you what.
In 1100 episodes, I know howdifficult it is to give original
, unique advice, and I feel likeyou nailed it there.
I'm not sure that's advicewe've ever heard on the air, so
I'm super appreciative of that.
I also love the work thatyou're doing.
I know that listeners are goingto be keen to see it with their
own eyes.
I've had the great pleasure ofgoing through and seeing is
(32:27):
believing.
Understanding your process isso clearly laid out, the
deliverables, the way that youoperate.
It's so cool to see everythingthat Proofmap is doing.
So, andy, for listeners whowant to check out all that great
work, drop those links on us.
Where should listeners go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, proofmapcom, you'll learn everything about us
, and then follow me on LinkedInAndy Stauffer.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes, listeners, you already know the drill.
You don't have to go very farto find those links.
Check down below.
No matter where it is thatyou're tuning into today's
episode, you'll find those linksdown below in the show notes.
It's super easy, thoughProofmapcom, or you see Andy's
name in the title of thisepisode.
You can find him personally onLinkedIn to continue the
conversation, because this year,if you want to start standing
(33:10):
out, this is such a clearlydifferentiated way to stand out
and have the power of Andy'smind, his team and his
experiences leading the way foryou to implement these customer
stories and literally everyaspect of your marketing, your
sales, your onboarding.
So, andy, on behalf of myselfand all the listeners worldwide,
thanks so much for coming onthe show today.
Thank you hey, it's Brian hereand thanks for tuning in to yet
(33:34):
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat the wantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to givea shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
(33:57):
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes, these are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
(34:19):
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always, every Monday, wednesday.
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