In this episode, we dive into the world of product management, entrepreneurship, and strategic execution with Narain Bala, founder of Product On Point. With a background spanning major companies like CNN and WebMD, Narain brings a unique blend of corporate experience and entrepreneurial agility to the table.
From managing complex digital ecosystems to launching his own product development studio, Narain shares his journey of transitioning from a product manager in big tech to an entrepreneur solving real-world problems for businesses that lack technical expertise. If you’re looking for insights on strategic product development, business growth, and the mindset needed to succeed, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways.
💡 What You'll Take Away For YOUR Business
🚀 How product managers think like entrepreneurs—and why it’s a powerful skill set
💡 The fundamentals of product management that most businesses overlook
🔄 How Narain transitioned from corporate product management to launching Product On Point
💰 Why understanding market gaps is key to building a sustainable business
🎯 How he helps non-tech businesses (like law firms & fire departments) implement digital solutions
📈 The importance of iterating your business model until you find the right fit
⚡ The role of AI and automation in optimizing sales and business development
📝 About Narain Bala
Narain Bala is the Founder of Product On Point, a cutting-edge Product Development Studio specializing in Websites, Apps, and SaaS solutions. With extensive experience spanning diverse industries, Narain is a seasoned product manager known for his expertise in start-up leadership, user experience optimization, and software product management. He holds an MBA from the Georgia Institute of Technology, complemented by master's degrees in Computer Science from The University of Texas at Arlington.
🎯 Narain’s BEST Piece of Advice for Wantrepreneurs & Entrepreneurs
"You don’t have all the answers, but if you believe in yourself and take action, you’ll figure it out along the way."
💡 Key Takeaways from Narain’s Advice:
✔ Back yourself—even if you don’t have all the answers right away
✔ Embrace uncertainty—great product managers and entrepreneurs thrive in ambiguity
✔ Keep learning & iterating—your business model will evolve as you grow
📢 Memorable Quotes
🗣️ "Product managers are entrepreneurs at heart—we build solutions and drive innovation." – Narain Bala
🗣️ "If you just keep doing the right things and stay patient, success will follow." – Narain Bala
🗣️ "Your first business model won’t be your final one. Keep evolving." – Narain Bala
💡 Actionable Takeaways
✅ Identify inefficiencies in your industry—opportunities exist where people are frustrated with outdated systems
✅ Think like a product manager—take ownership of problems, not just tasks
✅ Start with the fundamentals—even small improvements can create massive impact
✅ Leverage AI tools for efficiency—but don’t rely on automation to replace human creativity
🔗 Links & Resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and I am so excited
about the guests that we'rebeing joined by today, because
not only is this someone who isa fellow entrepreneur, just like
you and I, but this is someonewho is incredibly talented, and
I can tell that he thinks like avisionary.
This is someone who reallyenvisions bringing real-life
(00:22):
solutions to the marketplace inso many different industries and
with some really cooltechnology.
So I'm definitely biased, solet me tell you all about
today's guest.
His name is Naren Bala.
Naren is the founder of ProductOn Point, which is a cutting
edge product development studiospecializing in websites, apps
and SaaS solutions, withextensive experience spanning
(00:42):
diverse industries.
Naren is a seasoned productmanager known for his expertise
in startup leadership, userexperience optimization and
software product management.
He holds an MBA from theGeorgia Institute of Technology,
complemented by master'sdegrees in computer science from
the University of Texas atArlington.
He's got a really cool andinteresting background.
I'm personally very excited tolearn from Naren in today's
(01:05):
episode, so I'm not going to sayanything else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Naren Bala.
All right, naren, I am so veryexcited that you're here with us
today.
First things first, welcome tothe show.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Thank you, yes, I'm excited tohear about all the things that
you've got going on on your sideof the world, but before we get
(01:27):
there, take us beyond the bio.
Who's Naren?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How'd you start doing all these cool things?
I started at a very young age.
I grew up in Kuwait.
I did my undergrad in IndiaAround 1999 is when I moved
there and I came to America in2003.
And did my master's.
India around 99 is when I movedthere and I came to America in
2003 and did my masters, as youmentioned, and then set up on a
career in IT.
But I started out in QA and ittook me a few years.
(01:56):
I did QA at Sprint and WebMDand then I was like I need to go
and get upskill myself.
So I got myself that MBA, asyou mentioned, from Georgia Tech
and luckily enough, I found ajob in product.
I was able to switch my careersand I moved to product
management at CNN, which was agreat time in my life.
I loved working there.
I loved the culture, just theimmediacy of what we're doing.
(02:21):
It was a fast environment.
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, naren, I'll tell you what.
Anytime I get to talk to peoplewho have been in product
management and productdevelopment and all of those, it
seems to me like you all thinklike business owners and
entrepreneurs, as it is.
Because you take ownership ofthose products, you view those
as solutions.
They're exactly that they'resolutions in the marketplace.
Talk to us about that mindsetand how that professional career
set you up for what you dotoday.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, Talk to us about that mindset and how that
professional career set you upfor what you do today.
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell yousomething it's a lot of times
product managers are not justmanaging just one product, right
, like, for example, cnn.
I had like maybe five or six ata time, so it's more.
What I loved the most about itwas I managed it not just the
product, but also the ecosystemaround it, right.
So you're working with a a lotof engineers, designers and
(03:05):
whatnot, and different people indifferent departments.
Uh, I do try to control thatecosystem as well, to keep it
fun, uh, and it's more than justthe product that keep makes it
fun, to be honest, yeah, talk tous more about that, because I
mean, what you're listing ismanaging people, managing the
products.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
What I'm hearing is exactly that entrepreneurial
business owner.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It is managing people that you're working with, it's
managing the products.
It's also managing theexpectations of everyone, right?
So product management is such apublic job.
You know everyone can see yourwork.
They log into the product,Everyone has opinions on your
work as soon as they see it.
So it's a very public-facingproduct on your work as soon as
they see it.
So it's very public facingproduct.
(03:47):
You do spend a lot of timespeaking very publicly to big,
big, large groups of people totry to get them aligned and on
the same page and moving forward.
In the bigger organizations,obviously, in startups, you're
going to have smaller teams, soyou do have that sense of
entrepreneurial management sortof energy of entrepreneurial
management, sort of energy evenwithout being one because you do
need that mindset withoutactually investing in the
(04:10):
company, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, for sure.
I love that, and obviouslylisteners already know the
spoiler alert which all of thisculminates in the fact that you
are one of us.
Now you are a fellowentrepreneur with your business
product on point.
Talk to us about thattransition, because I would
imagine moving to the UnitedStates.
You've obviously heard of theAmerican dream and you are a
great example of that startingyour own business, growing and
running your own business.
(04:32):
What did that transition looklike?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Wow, thanks for for thanks for that mention but,
yeah, I do pinch myselfsometimes, but I did.
Uh, I made the switch to startmy own studio when I had my last
job and I found it was a muchsmaller company than CNN and I
found that I was the onlyproduct manager there, so I
could really have a lot ofimpact on the product, the
(04:57):
processes, the frameworks.
And I messed around witheverything and after doing that,
I was like I just found myselfdoing some fundamental things
nothing too big, just thefundamental things.
Communicate what you're workingon, be transparent, just how
developers, designers andengineers work together, not
(05:18):
just the fundamentals of it all.
And it made such a bigdifference to that company.
We ended up delivering a $50million roadmap in one year, so
it made a big difference.
And at that point I was like,you know, maybe I should just
try this and see where it goes,because I see a lot of
organizations, especially theones that will operate in a
(05:39):
non-jazzy tech industry like Imean like stuff, like utility
companies or law firms, forexample they do need digital
products to get their customersand interact with customers, but
they don't have that sort offrameworks and processes that we
in the tech industry have.
So that was the whole intent ofProduct on Point.
It's to be a one-stop shop.
(06:00):
Access to product management,talent defines product
strategies, etc.
And we can also manage it aswell, because the management is
an important part.
But essentially, that was mythought behind it is that I
think a lot of companies forgetthe fundamentals when it comes
to product management.
It is a lot of vision, there'sa lot of entrepreneurial skills
(06:21):
that you're talking about, butultimately there are
fundamentals and I think a lotof companies miss it.
I want to bring it and let'ssee how it goes.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, I love that, naren.
What's really interesting forme, obviously I get to interview
entrepreneurs for a living andI hear all different ways that
people start their businesses,and also I went to business
school and you did as well, andso we've heard the academic
(06:50):
approach to starting a business,and when I look at your
business journey, obviously youhave very tangible and
incredible skills.
But then also what I'm hearingand talking to you today is that
your business mind thinks aboutthe gaps in the marketplace,
the needs of real life clientsthat you can serve.
How do you balance the two ofthose?
Because obviously, the way thatyou're growing product on point
, you're thinking about bothsides of that coin.
But I'm curious, which comescomes first?
How do you strategize fromthere and how do you execute it
into reality?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think everyone does it different and I may have
done it differently over theyears, but, uh, how I do today.
I think, as a product manager,you're going to be writing a lot
, you're going to be reading alot, you're going to be thinking
by yourself a lot before youpresent it even to the first
person, what you're working on.
There's a lot of work that goeson behind the scenes before you
get to that stage.
(07:29):
So, for me, I like to uh thinkabout large scale, very, very
high level stuff like what do Iwant the studio to be perceived
as?
Uh, what do I want this studioto do?
Uh, should it just be me as afreelancer or should it be like
a studio with other people?
So all these questions weresomething that I was thinking
(07:50):
through.
What would I have most fun with?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Because when I first started, obviously, with
LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Everyone is going to independent consulting and all
that kind of freelance work.
But I didn't want to go intoanother organization and give
them my solution and then relyon their engineers and their
culture and whatnot to get itacross the finish line.
So that's why I was like I needto be a studio, I need to have
engineers, I need to havedesigners, I need to have
(08:16):
product managers and I think I'mnot going to be a product
manager, I want to be a studiohead.
So I love that I'm doing newthings, but building on a
foundation of what I learnedthrough product management.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, really well said, and the fact that you talk
about it in that studio mindset, in the way that you're
operating within your businessmodel.
Obviously it encompasses all ofthose aspects that you just
introduced us to, from design tothe actual engineering.
Talk to us about how you'velaid out your service lines and
what it is that you offer toyour clients, because I found I
(08:49):
mean, I've been an entrepreneurnow for 16 years and we're
always evolving, we're alwayschanging, we're always adding,
we're always removing.
I'd love to hear how you'velaid out your services.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, I went through hell for it.
It took me one and a half yearsto come up with it.
I went through hell for it.
It took me one and a half yearsto come up with it, but I kept
changing it, like I said, itdidn't make sense, it wasn't
what I want to do, it wasn'tsometimes it wasn't the
expertise that I felt I could do, it was maybe a bit below what
I'm used to doing.
But it started like I said if Iwere doing this as an
(09:20):
individual, what would myservices be?
It would have been very basicstuff.
So then, this as an individual,what would my services be?
It would have been very basicstuff, uh.
So then I was like what if Istart hiring people to do stuff
I cannot do?
Uh, not just hiring, but youknow, I mostly work with
freelancers and so, uh, wherethey can own their own time, but
I do share a person revenue uhwith them.
That uh gives them the valuefor the work more than just the
(09:41):
hourly rate.
But it started over there and Iinitially wanted the studio to
cover the entire productdevelopment lifecycle, from the
discovery to whatever design,branding, execution, deployment,
marketing, promotion,everything.
That's the whole cycle, and itstarted from there.
(10:01):
But how do I put these seven toeight stages in a way that you
know someone like a customerwho's really in a hurry can
understand?
So that was the biggestchallenge for me how to make
this whole ecosystem into threeto four services.
What I have now on the sitemight actually change again,
because I thought this was it inDecember or November of last
(10:22):
year, but I think I havesomething better so I might be
changing it soon.
So it's a constant evolutionand that's okay.
Until you can reliably get arevenue, it's okay to keep
changing.
So it's such a low cost thingto do it because it's just me on
the website right now.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I love your perspective on that, naren.
I feel like this is the advicethat most people don't hear in
classrooms or in mosttraditional business educational
resources, but this is the realstuff.
You and I have absolutely foundit to be true in our own
entrepreneurial journeys,especially when I look at the
work that your company does, andI think it's cool because
you're working on projects thathave real world implications,
whether you're helping fire andrescue departments or your other
(10:58):
clients.
Walk us through some of thosethings, because obviously we're
hearing your story about theevolution of your business, but
I know, and you both know, thata lot of it comes from doing the
real work, not sitting in youroffice and thinking about how to
grow and evolve, but actuallyserving people.
I'd love to hear the behind thescenes story from projects like
that.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I mean, I did the basics right reach out your
friends and family and I did geta couple of customers, I won't
say uh one.
One of them was a law firm andthe other was the fire
department in the county down,uh, in the next county down from
where I am.
Uh, I purposefully targetedthese sort of industries because
, like I mentioned, I think theywill really value the work
(11:36):
you're doing.
Uh, I think some of the work wedo is just taken for granted in
a lot of tech companies,especially big tech, and it may
not even be appreciated becauseeveryone does it.
But these sort of firms, I feltlike it would make a big impact
and I was not wrong.
So, with the law firm, forexample, it was just basic,
fundamental stuff to increasepage performance, increase the
(11:59):
quality of lead conversions.
A lot of these law firms havepoor messaging on their webpage.
They promote themselves versuswhat they do.
This is the fundamentals ofmessaging, and so that was more
than design, branding.
That is what they valued andthat's the kind of strategic
aspect I'm hoping the studio canprovide.
And with the fire department,for example, they really don't
(12:22):
have the kind of engineers thatyou would see in Google and
whatnot.
So the expertise I could bringthere provides a real value for
them, save them a lot of time.
It was a lot of thesegovernment firms.
They have really outdatedsystems that they kind of fill
in the blanks to make them talkto each other.
Like in the fire departmentthey would download stuff from
(12:43):
one app and make a spreadsheet,re-upload in other apps just to
come do payroll.
So it just kind of fused themtogether, just integrated the
two of these systems.
Standard stuff for maybe someof the larger companies, but
invaluable sort of contribution.
These sort of non-technicalexpertise sort of places.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, for sure, I love the fact that you call that
out because probably a lot ofthe things that you sort of
contribution, these sort ofnon-technical expertise sort of
places yeah, for sure I love thefact that you call that out,
because probably a lot of thethings that you do feel second
nature and you've obviously seenit at huge companies but for
smaller businesses that don'thave that in-house talent you
said the word invaluable and Iactually very much agree with
you there especially becausewhat I think of is that a lot of
us are so close to our work, soclose to our businesses, that
(13:24):
we don't see the solution.
So I'd love to hear from yourperspective maybe this is with
your product management add-onof how do you walk into a
business or a project, makesense of the existing landscape
and then map out okay, here'sall the different types of
solutions and here's thesolution that we wanna power
forward with.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I think it changed over the years and with the more
experience I got.
Like, when I walked into CNN,for example, for the first time
in 2015, I came straight from QAso I had never seen a product
manager before that.
I mean these days, when Istarted at least back in the day
you would never see productmanagers.
You'd only see developers andDBAs, the QA person, your scrum
(14:06):
meetings.
And when I walked into thescene it was the first time I
saw a product manager in the laband it was a big jump.
So when I was in that situation, you can easily start spinning
very fast and especially in thatfast environment.
So many people are verysuccessful over there.
Well, big, big universitiesthey come from over there.
They can talk really good,especially at CNN.
(14:30):
So, just trying to figure thatpart out, just be patient, you
know.
Looking back, I know the firsttwo years over there I struggled
so much because, like youmentioned, you know I didn't.
I came from somewhere else, somy English wasn't that good as
well.
I had to learn to communicateand you got to communicate, you
got to be public, you got tocommunicate.
So that was kind of fundamental.
(14:51):
I had to overcome that.
But if, if I were going into anew place now with like a new
kid going in, I'd say calm down.
You know, just just go to yourdesk or your table, just read
stuff, research stuff, look atthe architecture.
Don't get too caught up witheveryone buzzing around you In
product.
Everyone will buzz around you.
(15:11):
There's going to be a lot ofpeople asking you for things, a
lot of people who have urgentneeds from their perspective,
but maybe not from yours and theorganization as well.
So you need to just trustyourself a little bit more.
Uh, back your judgment.
You know you've spent time.
You came up with a judgment, gofor it, just express it.
(15:33):
People will.
People will rip it apart,regardless if it makes sense or
not.
So, especially if you ownproduct, so just just do it.
And so that was the kind ofapproach I would take if I'm
going to something new.
Looking back, of course, when Iwas doing it I was just all over
the place.
But another example when I wentto my prior company, the much
(15:55):
smaller one in the non-techspace, it took me a while.
I was much more experienced bythen, so I could add another
layer to the landscape.
I started looking at how the ccwould perform.
How was the management culturestuff that I didn't look at when
I was younger because I justassumed everyone knew what they
were doing.
But uh, with the uh, but yeah,so it changes.
(16:20):
Uh, as you grow older, you lookat more things.
Your title itself goes uphopefully.
Uh, you have differentresponsibilities.
Consider that when you'refactoring in what you need to do
, as you grow older, you look atmore things.
Your title itself goes uphopefully, you have different
responsibilities.
Consider that when you'refactoring in what you need to do
, fundamentals, have a goodrelationship, not like hey, what
happened in the game last nightrelationship with your
engineers and designers, but agood relationship where you are
(16:43):
concerned about the quality ofwork you're providing to them.
That has always beenfundamental to me.
It's so simple If you want tomake a difference as a product
manager, make sure the workyou're bringing is quality that
an engineer or designer feelslike I want to come into work
for this guy.
Otherwise it's just going to gothe wrong way.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I love that, naren, Especially because you're
bringing up the importantmindset stuff that I don't think
we talk about often enough.
You bring up patience, which issomething that we could
probably do multiple podcastepisodes just on the topic of
patience.
But what I want to call outright now listeners know that
before we ever get together, youand I, to create this episode,
we do a lot of backgroundresearch, and part of that is we
always ask our guests what'syour zone of genius?
(17:26):
And I love your answer.
I'm going to call it out hereon the air because you wrote a
winning mentality, even thoughit's not something that I had to
begin with.
I would love, with yourentrepreneurial hat on, for you
to talk to us about that,because obviously, working for
somebody else is one thing, butnow you're your own boss, you
are the leader of the ship andyou're growing your company.
Why is that such an importantpart of what you do?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Because I don't get stressed out when things aren't
going well, because I know if Ijust put some time into it it's
going to be hard, but eventuallyit will come through.
And that's actually like I said, it was something I had to
learn In product.
You're not going to have thisthe minute you're walking
through the door.
You're going to get it.
Doing this, multiple, multiplelaunches, multiple products,
(18:09):
week after week, you'redelivering.
It comes after three to fouryears.
You get the hang of things.
You kind, you kind of know.
Okay, these are three things Ineed to do to get things moving.
These are three thing in piecesof information I need before I
can even begin talking to anyone, it all starts falling into
place.
So when my big thing, if you'rea product manager, one of the
fundamental aspects is you needto be comfortable working in an
(18:31):
ambiguous environment with verylittle information coming in, no
one is giving you goodinformation.
You have to go get it yourself.
Like I said, just keep it calm,keep it chill, you know it.
Working in an ambiguousenvironment with very little
information coming in, no one isgiving you good information.
You have to go get it yourself.
Like I said, just keep it calm,keep it chill, you know, and I
can see it making a differencewith the studio work, for
example.
If I had done something likethis four years ago, I would
have been lost, I would havebeen panicked, I would have been
(18:52):
nervous.
I'm like, well, there's noprogress, there's no customers,
what's going on?
But now I'm like you know, if Ijust keep doing the right
things, uh, just be patient,it'll come.
And I am having a lot of fungoing through the process and
since I am my own boss now, I'mnot rushing through things.
You know, that's the beauty ofthe zone.
You know, I've had a lot of funthis one and a half years just
(19:12):
thinking about what I want to do, being a bit meticulous.
Meticulous, it's okay to bemeticulous in life.
I know in fast organizationsthat is the first victim, but I
take my time these days.
That's what's changed a bitfrom the fast product
environment yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'd love to hear some insights about your executive
time behind the scenes because,hearing the way that you think,
you obviously think like aproduct manager, which is a huge
asset to you.
But what I'm envisioning justbeing a fellow business owner is
I realize you have a team, youhave to manage them.
You have clients.
You're managing them.
You also kind of lingering overall of our conversation today
is you're also growingstrategically the business
(19:52):
development side of things.
You have to manage the salesprocess.
You have to get new clients.
Clients talk to us about howyou organize that, because I
would imagine that as a productmanager, you have a very
systematic way of doing it allyeah, I, I didn't do everything
at one shot.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So, uh, when I first started, like, this is 2023,
around september.
October is when things startedfalling into place, maybe by
january of 2024 is when I reallystarted.
I registered the LLC, forexample, only in January 2024.
But I knew, first thing, I needa lead generation website.
So I started from the.
(20:26):
I knew I couldn't do it myself.
I had that realization inOctober of the year prior and
that's why I reached out.
Like you mentioned, I have agood team behind me.
A lot of the website, a lot ofthe copywriting, marketing is
done by Lauren Demarest, who isanother entrepreneur herself.
She may be a good fit for thisepisode.
She's actually.
(20:47):
She has a vacation studio,exercise studio in Mykonos,
greece, and then I have myAustin, who is also someone I've
worked with a lot in the past.
So if there's something thatdoesn't involve the business
side of the studio, the leadgeneration side of the studio, I
(21:07):
do try to get people to help meto move it along, and if I
hadn't done that, I would neverbe here on this podcast.
Even I don't think anyone wouldknow who I was.
No one does, even now, but I'mjust saying it wouldn't have
gotten this much traction.
Get people to help you andtrust their work.
How I work with others, I dogive frameworks and objectives.
(21:32):
I'd never go and say like makethis blue, make this green, kind
of stuff.
Just let people work.
Give them space as you wouldlike space myself.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, really good advice there, and I love the
fact that it's a glimpse intohow you actually operate, not
just advice that you're givingon a podcast episode, but this
is the real way that you'regrowing your business product on
point.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Like you mentioned, right the process, right, so I
quit the answer midway.
So the the uh.
So that was the first thing.
Well, I need a website.
So I didn't think about salesand marketing at that time.
I was like I need a website.
And second one was I need tobuild trust with anyone that
comes, so I was like I needcustomers it's like, when you go
uh, I've heard so I haven'tdone this in my life, but I or
(22:13):
when it's m it, for example,they would always say when
you're starting off a newstartup, the when you go for
funding, the first question youget asked is how many customers
do you have?
Even though you haven't startedyet.
So that that's just how it is,and so so I knew I needed to get
testimonials.
So that was.
I just hit milestone aftermilestone, let me get
testimonies, let me getcustomers, let me get promotion.
(22:35):
So then had a linkedin page setup, and maybe from the start of
this year, I was like, like youmentioned, uh, I need to get a
sales pipeline going, so I justuh bought, I purchased a product
for to get me those lists, and,uh, that's what I'm working on
right now, though and I've neverdone this part of the business
before, I've never been on thisside uh, so I actually had a old
(22:58):
colleague of mine help me withit.
So get the help.
You're not going to do this onyour own.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yes, honestly, I love that.
I love how open you are aboutyour approach to growing and
building the thing that you'vealways dreamed of, and you're
involving others, so you'rebuilding a shared thing, which
is really cool, because it'skind of like the projects that
you deliver to others.
You guys are builders forothers, so I really love that
you have to collaborate.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You can never do it if you don't.
You know, I know in america alot of the uh, I swear the tech
groups right, I mean they'regonna be very, uh, football
analogies there's always aquarterback and I think they
envision the product manager asa quarterback.
But you know, I grew up withsoccer, obviously not american
football.
Uh, so for me I kind of look atproduct magic differently, as
someone that you know I grew upwith soccer, obviously not
American football.
So for me I kind of look atproduct manager differently, as
someone that you know drives therhythm of the game, decides
(23:42):
when to pass, who to pass, tokeep things moving in the right
directions, like a defensivemidfielder, to be honest.
So that's so it changes.
It changes your perspective,because that's your frame of
reference and you see thatchange because if quarterbacks
think they're quarterback, theythink they're the quarterback.
They're not listening to whatanyone is saying and not much
(24:02):
feedback is getting in.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, I love that analogy.
Naren, you're on a good soccershow as well, so I agree with
you.
The defensive midfielder, agood number six, is what's going
to drive the entire teamforward.
That's what I'm saying.
I want to ask you about thisbecause, just knowing the way
that your technical brain worksand the fact that you've seen
the insides of so many coolprojects and you guys are also
building things for others howhas AI changed the landscape on
(24:24):
both the client side, the waythat you operate and also
internally?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I think, for example, when you said building a sales
pipeline before I mean back inthe day.
Back in the day means last yearor was it one and a half years
ago you had to spend like$15,000 to get one of these Zoom
infos or whatnot.
Now they have these AI tools.
I use CMS AI, for example.
It's affordable.
It's like $150 a month ifyou're starting out.
(24:49):
It's making things accessiblethat you probably couldn't
before.
It's making things faster.
I don't.
I wouldn't say it is makinglike I don't.
I wouldn't put like just typean email with a sentence, like
that kind of stuff.
It actually iscounterproductive.
I found you do need to bringyour personality to email.
(25:11):
It doesn't mean you put thetype the whole thing yourself
and do have AI, have a goodcheck on it, extend it, make it
better, all these kinds ofthings.
In that aspect, ai has beenmagnificent for me.
It's made my emails look a lotmore professional after I've
typed them and a lot better.
Definitely the proposals I'vedone for some of the customers.
No way I was doing that withoutAI.
I wouldn't sit down and writesuch a huge document without AI.
(25:36):
But AI is not giving the ideas,polishing your image.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, really well said.
I think it's important forpeople to always remember that
role that it can play.
It's a collaborative partner,but it's not the end all be all
and it's certainly not the endresult.
So I really love that.
Naren, while we have you here,I will say that selfishly I
always enjoy askingentrepreneurs about their time
horizon, because everybody, Ifind, thinks about time in the
future in so many different ways.
Here we are talking about AI.
(26:04):
We have no idea what's gonnaexist 12 months from now.
It's really exciting to thinkabout that.
I'm a big fan of working inquarters.
I believe that a quarter 90days is a lot of time that you
can be both actionable and youcan do some really big things.
Where's your time horizon?
Go Thinking about the fact thatyour most cherished product is
your business product on pointand you're building that product
(26:27):
out as well.
What's that time horizon looklike and what sort of targets do
you set for yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I'll tell you none.
Actually, I do have yearlytargets, like this year.
I was like I'm going to looklast year, 2024.
I was like I'm going to makethis look like a legitimate
business is what my goal was,and it took me the whole year to
do it.
Initially I had targets andtimelines.
I'm going to do this quarter,that quarter.
It's just putting too muchpressure on yourself.
(26:52):
There's a lot of stuff you'regoing to have to figure out.
It takes a lot of time.
Just keep it chill is what Isay.
But if I were working for acustomer, that's different.
In my career, when I worked onProject with Customers, for
example, I do have like six-weekdeliverables right.
You do it like six weeks istwo-week sprints, like a trilogy
(27:13):
the start, the middle, the end,a nice story arc.
Six-week deliverables is how Iwork and I do guarantee and I
have done this in previouscompanies I've worked in that is
, 90-day MVPs.
That is, we're going to get yougoing in 90 days or less.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, gosh, I love that, and I know that listeners'
ears will perk up becausethey'll probably be thinking
Naren, what's behind the scenespowering all this?
You have some favorite tools orproject management systems that
keep all of these things ontrack?
Actually, no.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It's not there yet.
The scale is not yet there.
I have 10 customers.
I'm trying to manage stuff withit, but one of the biggest
tools I use is Notion.
It's great for me because whenI write these proposals, one of
the things I was particularabout was I wanted to be a
studio that is essentially witha consulting agency.
I guess I wanted to be a studiothat is essentially with a
consulting agency, I guess, butI wanted to be a little bit of a
(28:06):
difference.
Like 10% should be a littleedgy.
But I'm going to be workingwith customers that are used to
reading Word documents, pdfdocuments, but I wanted them to
instantly feel they're going tobe somewhere else.
So I wanted a notion and I wantto give them a webpage and I
want to move things in theproposal around.
Put some color, make it looklike an article that you're
(28:29):
reading, make it fun.
If a lawyer reads a Worddocument, they're very
comfortable.
They'll see a Notion page.
Suddenly they're like I need to.
Something interesting ishappening here.
So that was something I did andit is value for money for me.
I'm not a Notion advertiser.
It was value for money becauseyou can do many things like for
(28:52):
some customers.
I just can create the customercenter for them.
Their whole documentation isthere.
Uh, their progress.
You can do jira queues and allthis kind of stuff.
Uh, swim lanes with notion.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It's a very cost effective tool, yeah I love the
fact that that's the one thatyou picked, and you also had
that disclaimer of you're notsponsored by them.
You're not sponsored by them.
We're not sponsored by themeither, but I cannot stop
talking about how good Notion is.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I saw you guys had the same thing.
She gave me the webpage.
I'm like, okay, these guys, Isee it.
I see what's happening here.
But I know Notion doesn't haveso many fans.
I'm a big fan and I know mycustomers.
I've looked at their eyes whenthey looked at the proposal.
Like well, because you can movethings around a bit makes it
fun yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Notion is an absolutely incredible tool.
Old noreen, you have given usso many food, so many things to
think about, so much food forthought, so many growth
opportunities.
And what I really appreciateabout you is not only the way
that you operate on your clientsand your projects and the way
that you operate internally, butthat entrepreneurial mind, that
executive mind that has reallyhelped you flourish and build an
awesome team.
So, with all of thatentrepreneurial mind, that
executive mind that has reallyhelped you flourish and build an
awesome team, so, with all ofthat in mind and with that hat
(29:50):
on, I love to ask this questionat the end of interviews.
And that is what's your bestpiece of advice Knowing that
we're being listened to by bothentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs
at all different stages of theirown growth journeys.
What's that one thing that youwant to leave them with from
today's episode?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I think one of the biggest traits I think that has
really helped me decide to dothe studio, decide to get it
this far it's not that far, butto get a better at this was
absolutely a belief in myself.
You definitely need to believein yourself.
You don't have all the answers,you don't know what you're
(30:27):
doing, but do believe that youknow you will get to that
milestone, either by strugglingor whatever, calling people
fighting.
You'll get there, just backyourself.
And if you're not, if you'regetting too panicky, then maybe
it's time to think about how toget yourself confident about
(30:48):
your work.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes, really well said .
An important advice listeners,this is the reality from
entrepreneur to entrepreneurs,that we always will have those
moments of self-doubt, but wehave to back ourselves.
I love the way you articulatethat in Iran.
I also know that listeners willbe keen to check out all the
great work that you're up towith product on point.
I personally loved readingthrough the fact that you've got
case studies on there.
You list out your services,your process, lots of good stuff
(31:12):
going on behind the scenes atProduct on Point.
So drop those links on us.
Where should listeners go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Hey, visit productonpointcom.
It has a hyphen within producthyphen on hyphen point because
product on point was taken.
Do visit our LinkedIn page.
Just search for product onpoint on LinkedIn.
Follow it.
We do have a bunch of our casestudies and what we do, who we
are over there.
If you're looking for advice onwhat you should do as a product
(31:41):
manager on our page, probablynot.
I think there's a lot of niceabout that.
Already on LinkedIn for us,you're going to see our work,
you're going to see our casestudies, who we are, what we do,
and it will hopefully we canilluminate you guys on who, how
we go about our businessesthrough the examples that we set
yes, so well said.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Listeners, don't mind the hyphens because you can
click right on through.
Down below in the show notes,no matter where it is that
you're tuning into today'sepisode, you'll find a link to
Narayan's business website,productonpointcom, with some
hyphens in betweenproduct-on-pointcom, but you can
click right on through.
So definitely check the shownotes out down below.
Otherwise, narayan, on behalfof myself and all the listeners
(32:20):
worldwide, thanks so much forcoming on the show today.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to give a shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
(32:48):
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomewantrepreneurs and entrepreneurs
, that they contribute to helpus make these productions
(33:11):
possible.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always every Monday, wednesday,friday, saturday and Sunday
(33:35):
here on the Wantrepreneur toEntrepreneur podcast.
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and I am so excited
about the guests that we'rebeing joined by today, because
not only is this someone who isa fellow entrepreneur, just like
you and I, but this is someonewho is incredibly talented, and
I can tell that he thinks like avisionary.
This is someone who reallyenvisions bringing real-life
(00:22):
solutions to the marketplace inso many different industries and
with some really cooltechnology.
So I'm definitely biased, solet me tell you all about
today's guest.
His name is Naren Bala.
Naren is the founder of ProductOn Point, which is a cutting
edge product development studiospecializing in websites, apps
and SaaS solutions, withextensive experience spanning
(00:42):
diverse industries.
Naren is a seasoned productmanager known for his expertise
in startup leadership, userexperience optimization and
software product management.
He holds an MBA from theGeorgia Institute of Technology,
complemented by master'sdegrees in computer science from
the University of Texas atArlington.
He's got a really cool andinteresting background.
I'm personally very excited tolearn from Naren in today's
(01:05):
episode, so I'm not going to sayanything else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Naren Bala.
All right, naren, I am so veryexcited that you're here with us
today.
First things first, welcome tothe show.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Thank you, yes, I'm excited tohear about all the things that
you've got going on on your sideof the world, but before we get
(01:27):
there, take us beyond the bio.
Who's Naren?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How'd you start doing all these cool things?
I started at a very young age.
I grew up in Kuwait.
I did my undergrad in IndiaAround 1999 is when I moved
there and I came to America in2003.
And did my master's.
India around 99 is when I movedthere and I came to America in
2003 and did my masters, as youmentioned, and then set up on a
career in IT.
But I started out in QA and ittook me a few years.
(01:56):
I did QA at Sprint and WebMDand then I was like I need to go
and get upskill myself.
So I got myself that MBA, asyou mentioned, from Georgia Tech
and luckily enough, I found ajob in product.
I was able to switch my careersand I moved to product
management at CNN, which was agreat time in my life.
I loved working there.
I loved the culture, just theimmediacy of what we're doing.
(02:21):
It was a fast environment.
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, naren, I'll tell you what.
Anytime I get to talk to peoplewho have been in product
management and productdevelopment and all of those, it
seems to me like you all thinklike business owners and
entrepreneurs, as it is.
Because you take ownership ofthose products, you view those
as solutions.
They're exactly that they'resolutions in the marketplace.
Talk to us about that mindsetand how that professional career
set you up for what you dotoday.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, Talk to us about that mindset and how that
professional career set you upfor what you do today.
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell yousomething it's a lot of times
product managers are not justmanaging just one product, right
, like, for example, cnn.
I had like maybe five or six ata time, so it's more.
What I loved the most about itwas I managed it not just the
product, but also the ecosystemaround it, right.
So you're working with a a lotof engineers, designers and
(03:05):
whatnot, and different people indifferent departments.
Uh, I do try to control thatecosystem as well, to keep it
fun, uh, and it's more than justthe product that keep makes it
fun, to be honest, yeah, talk tous more about that, because I
mean, what you're listing ismanaging people, managing the
products.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
What I'm hearing is exactly that entrepreneurial
business owner.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It is managing people that you're working with, it's
managing the products.
It's also managing theexpectations of everyone, right?
So product management is such apublic job.
You know everyone can see yourwork.
They log into the product,Everyone has opinions on your
work as soon as they see it.
So it's a very public-facingproduct on your work as soon as
they see it.
So it's very public facingproduct.
(03:47):
You do spend a lot of timespeaking very publicly to big,
big, large groups of people totry to get them aligned and on
the same page and moving forward.
In the bigger organizations,obviously, in startups, you're
going to have smaller teams, soyou do have that sense of
entrepreneurial management sortof energy of entrepreneurial
management, sort of energy evenwithout being one because you do
need that mindset withoutactually investing in the
(04:10):
company, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, for sure.
I love that, and obviouslylisteners already know the
spoiler alert which all of thisculminates in the fact that you
are one of us.
Now you are a fellowentrepreneur with your business
product on point.
Talk to us about thattransition, because I would
imagine moving to the UnitedStates.
You've obviously heard of theAmerican dream and you are a
great example of that startingyour own business, growing and
running your own business.
(04:32):
What did that transition looklike?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Wow, thanks for for thanks for that mention but,
yeah, I do pinch myselfsometimes, but I did.
Uh, I made the switch to startmy own studio when I had my last
job and I found it was a muchsmaller company than CNN and I
found that I was the onlyproduct manager there, so I
could really have a lot ofimpact on the product, the
(04:57):
processes, the frameworks.
And I messed around witheverything and after doing that,
I was like I just found myselfdoing some fundamental things
nothing too big, just thefundamental things.
Communicate what you're workingon, be transparent, just how
developers, designers andengineers work together, not
(05:18):
just the fundamentals of it all.
And it made such a bigdifference to that company.
We ended up delivering a $50million roadmap in one year, so
it made a big difference.
And at that point I was like,you know, maybe I should just
try this and see where it goes,because I see a lot of
organizations, especially theones that will operate in a
(05:39):
non-jazzy tech industry like Imean like stuff, like utility
companies or law firms, forexample they do need digital
products to get their customersand interact with customers, but
they don't have that sort offrameworks and processes that we
in the tech industry have.
So that was the whole intent ofProduct on Point.
It's to be a one-stop shop.
(06:00):
Access to product management,talent defines product
strategies, etc.
And we can also manage it aswell, because the management is
an important part.
But essentially, that was mythought behind it is that I
think a lot of companies forgetthe fundamentals when it comes
to product management.
It is a lot of vision, there'sa lot of entrepreneurial skills
(06:21):
that you're talking about, butultimately there are
fundamentals and I think a lotof companies miss it.
I want to bring it and let'ssee how it goes.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, I love that, naren.
What's really interesting forme, obviously I get to interview
entrepreneurs for a living andI hear all different ways that
people start their businesses,and also I went to business
school and you did as well, andso we've heard the academic
(06:50):
approach to starting a business,and when I look at your
business journey, obviously youhave very tangible and
incredible skills.
But then also what I'm hearingand talking to you today is that
your business mind thinks aboutthe gaps in the marketplace,
the needs of real life clientsthat you can serve.
How do you balance the two ofthose?
Because obviously, the way thatyou're growing product on point
, you're thinking about bothsides of that coin.
But I'm curious, which comescomes first?
How do you strategize fromthere and how do you execute it
into reality?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think everyone does it different and I may have
done it differently over theyears, but, uh, how I do today.
I think, as a product manager,you're going to be writing a lot
, you're going to be reading alot, you're going to be thinking
by yourself a lot before youpresent it even to the first
person, what you're working on.
There's a lot of work that goeson behind the scenes before you
get to that stage.
(07:29):
So, for me, I like to uh thinkabout large scale, very, very
high level stuff like what do Iwant the studio to be perceived
as?
Uh, what do I want this studioto do?
Uh, should it just be me as afreelancer or should it be like
a studio with other people?
So all these questions weresomething that I was thinking
(07:50):
through.
What would I have most fun with?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Because when I first started, obviously, with
LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Everyone is going to independent consulting and all
that kind of freelance work.
But I didn't want to go intoanother organization and give
them my solution and then relyon their engineers and their
culture and whatnot to get itacross the finish line.
So that's why I was like I needto be a studio, I need to have
engineers, I need to havedesigners, I need to have
(08:16):
product managers and I think I'mnot going to be a product
manager, I want to be a studiohead.
So I love that I'm doing newthings, but building on a
foundation of what I learnedthrough product management.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, really well said, and the fact that you talk
about it in that studio mindset, in the way that you're
operating within your businessmodel.
Obviously it encompasses all ofthose aspects that you just
introduced us to, from design tothe actual engineering.
Talk to us about how you'velaid out your service lines and
what it is that you offer toyour clients, because I found I
(08:49):
mean, I've been an entrepreneurnow for 16 years and we're
always evolving, we're alwayschanging, we're always adding,
we're always removing.
I'd love to hear how you'velaid out your services.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, I went through hell for it.
It took me one and a half yearsto come up with it.
I went through hell for it.
It took me one and a half yearsto come up with it, but I kept
changing it, like I said, itdidn't make sense, it wasn't
what I want to do, it wasn'tsometimes it wasn't the
expertise that I felt I could do, it was maybe a bit below what
I'm used to doing.
But it started like I said if Iwere doing this as an
(09:20):
individual, what would myservices be?
It would have been very basicstuff.
So then, this as an individual,what would my services be?
It would have been very basicstuff, uh.
So then I was like what if Istart hiring people to do stuff
I cannot do?
Uh, not just hiring, but youknow, I mostly work with
freelancers and so, uh, wherethey can own their own time, but
I do share a person revenue uhwith them.
That uh gives them the valuefor the work more than just the
(09:41):
hourly rate.
But it started over there and Iinitially wanted the studio to
cover the entire productdevelopment lifecycle, from the
discovery to whatever design,branding, execution, deployment,
marketing, promotion,everything.
That's the whole cycle, and itstarted from there.
(10:01):
But how do I put these seven toeight stages in a way that you
know someone like a customerwho's really in a hurry can
understand?
So that was the biggestchallenge for me how to make
this whole ecosystem into threeto four services.
What I have now on the sitemight actually change again,
because I thought this was it inDecember or November of last
(10:22):
year, but I think I havesomething better so I might be
changing it soon.
So it's a constant evolutionand that's okay.
Until you can reliably get arevenue, it's okay to keep
changing.
So it's such a low cost thingto do it because it's just me on
the website right now.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I love your perspective on that, naren.
I feel like this is the advicethat most people don't hear in
classrooms or in mosttraditional business educational
resources, but this is the realstuff.
You and I have absolutely foundit to be true in our own
entrepreneurial journeys,especially when I look at the
work that your company does, andI think it's cool because
you're working on projects thathave real world implications,
whether you're helping fire andrescue departments or your other
(10:58):
clients.
Walk us through some of thosethings, because obviously we're
hearing your story about theevolution of your business, but
I know, and you both know, thata lot of it comes from doing the
real work, not sitting in youroffice and thinking about how to
grow and evolve, but actuallyserving people.
I'd love to hear the behind thescenes story from projects like
that.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I mean, I did the basics right reach out your
friends and family and I did geta couple of customers, I won't
say uh one.
One of them was a law firm andthe other was the fire
department in the county down,uh, in the next county down from
where I am.
Uh, I purposefully targetedthese sort of industries because
, like I mentioned, I think theywill really value the work
(11:36):
you're doing.
Uh, I think some of the work wedo is just taken for granted in
a lot of tech companies,especially big tech, and it may
not even be appreciated becauseeveryone does it.
But these sort of firms, I feltlike it would make a big impact
and I was not wrong.
So, with the law firm, forexample, it was just basic,
fundamental stuff to increasepage performance, increase the
(11:59):
quality of lead conversions.
A lot of these law firms havepoor messaging on their webpage.
They promote themselves versuswhat they do.
This is the fundamentals ofmessaging, and so that was more
than design, branding.
That is what they valued andthat's the kind of strategic
aspect I'm hoping the studio canprovide.
And with the fire department,for example, they really don't
(12:22):
have the kind of engineers thatyou would see in Google and
whatnot.
So the expertise I could bringthere provides a real value for
them, save them a lot of time.
It was a lot of thesegovernment firms.
They have really outdatedsystems that they kind of fill
in the blanks to make them talkto each other.
Like in the fire departmentthey would download stuff from
(12:43):
one app and make a spreadsheet,re-upload in other apps just to
come do payroll.
So it just kind of fused themtogether, just integrated the
two of these systems.
Standard stuff for maybe someof the larger companies, but
invaluable sort of contribution.
These sort of non-technicalexpertise sort of places.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, for sure, I love the fact that you call that
out because probably a lot ofthe things that you sort of
contribution, these sort ofnon-technical expertise sort of
places yeah, for sure I love thefact that you call that out,
because probably a lot of thethings that you do feel second
nature and you've obviously seenit at huge companies but for
smaller businesses that don'thave that in-house talent you
said the word invaluable and Iactually very much agree with
you there especially becausewhat I think of is that a lot of
us are so close to our work, soclose to our businesses, that
(13:24):
we don't see the solution.
So I'd love to hear from yourperspective maybe this is with
your product management add-onof how do you walk into a
business or a project, makesense of the existing landscape
and then map out okay, here'sall the different types of
solutions and here's thesolution that we wanna power
forward with.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I think it changed over the years and with the more
experience I got.
Like, when I walked into CNN,for example, for the first time
in 2015, I came straight from QAso I had never seen a product
manager before that.
I mean these days, when Istarted at least back in the day
you would never see productmanagers.
You'd only see developers andDBAs, the QA person, your scrum
(14:06):
meetings.
And when I walked into thescene it was the first time I
saw a product manager in the laband it was a big jump.
So when I was in that situation, you can easily start spinning
very fast and especially in thatfast environment.
So many people are verysuccessful over there.
Well, big, big universitiesthey come from over there.
They can talk really good,especially at CNN.
(14:30):
So, just trying to figure thatpart out, just be patient, you
know.
Looking back, I know the firsttwo years over there I struggled
so much because, like youmentioned, you know I didn't.
I came from somewhere else, somy English wasn't that good as
well.
I had to learn to communicateand you got to communicate, you
got to be public, you got tocommunicate.
So that was kind of fundamental.
(14:51):
I had to overcome that.
But if, if I were going into anew place now with like a new
kid going in, I'd say calm down.
You know, just just go to yourdesk or your table, just read
stuff, research stuff, look atthe architecture.
Don't get too caught up witheveryone buzzing around you In
product.
Everyone will buzz around you.
(15:11):
There's going to be a lot ofpeople asking you for things, a
lot of people who have urgentneeds from their perspective,
but maybe not from yours and theorganization as well.
So you need to just trustyourself a little bit more.
Uh, back your judgment.
You know you've spent time.
You came up with a judgment, gofor it, just express it.
(15:33):
People will.
People will rip it apart,regardless if it makes sense or
not.
So, especially if you ownproduct, so just just do it.
And so that was the kind ofapproach I would take if I'm
going to something new.
Looking back, of course, when Iwas doing it I was just all over
the place.
But another example when I wentto my prior company, the much
(15:55):
smaller one in the non-techspace, it took me a while.
I was much more experienced bythen, so I could add another
layer to the landscape.
I started looking at how the ccwould perform.
How was the management culturestuff that I didn't look at when
I was younger because I justassumed everyone knew what they
were doing.
But uh, with the uh, but yeah,so it changes.
(16:20):
Uh, as you grow older, you lookat more things.
Your title itself goes uphopefully.
Uh, you have differentresponsibilities.
Consider that when you'refactoring in what you need to do
, as you grow older, you look atmore things.
Your title itself goes uphopefully, you have different
responsibilities.
Consider that when you'refactoring in what you need to do
, fundamentals, have a goodrelationship, not like hey, what
happened in the game last nightrelationship with your
engineers and designers, but agood relationship where you are
(16:43):
concerned about the quality ofwork you're providing to them.
That has always beenfundamental to me.
It's so simple If you want tomake a difference as a product
manager, make sure the workyou're bringing is quality that
an engineer or designer feelslike I want to come into work
for this guy.
Otherwise it's just going to gothe wrong way.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I love that, naren, Especially because you're
bringing up the importantmindset stuff that I don't think
we talk about often enough.
You bring up patience, which issomething that we could
probably do multiple podcastepisodes just on the topic of
patience.
But what I want to call outright now listeners know that
before we ever get together, youand I, to create this episode,
we do a lot of backgroundresearch, and part of that is we
always ask our guests what'syour zone of genius?
(17:26):
And I love your answer.
I'm going to call it out hereon the air because you wrote a
winning mentality, even thoughit's not something that I had to
begin with.
I would love, with yourentrepreneurial hat on, for you
to talk to us about that,because obviously, working for
somebody else is one thing, butnow you're your own boss, you
are the leader of the ship andyou're growing your company.
Why is that such an importantpart of what you do?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Because I don't get stressed out when things aren't
going well, because I know if Ijust put some time into it it's
going to be hard, but eventuallyit will come through.
And that's actually like I said, it was something I had to
learn In product.
You're not going to have thisthe minute you're walking
through the door.
You're going to get it.
Doing this, multiple, multiplelaunches, multiple products,
(18:09):
week after week, you'redelivering.
It comes after three to fouryears.
You get the hang of things.
You kind, you kind of know.
Okay, these are three things Ineed to do to get things moving.
These are three thing in piecesof information I need before I
can even begin talking to anyone, it all starts falling into
place.
So when my big thing, if you'rea product manager, one of the
fundamental aspects is you needto be comfortable working in an
(18:31):
ambiguous environment with verylittle information coming in, no
one is giving you goodinformation.
You have to go get it yourself.
Like I said, just keep it calm,keep it chill, you know it.
Working in an ambiguousenvironment with very little
information coming in, no one isgiving you good information.
You have to go get it yourself.
Like I said, just keep it calm,keep it chill, you know, and I
can see it making a differencewith the studio work, for
example.
If I had done something likethis four years ago, I would
have been lost, I would havebeen panicked, I would have been
(18:52):
nervous.
I'm like, well, there's noprogress, there's no customers,
what's going on?
But now I'm like you know, if Ijust keep doing the right
things, uh, just be patient,it'll come.
And I am having a lot of fungoing through the process and
since I am my own boss now, I'mnot rushing through things.
You know, that's the beauty ofthe zone.
You know, I've had a lot of funthis one and a half years just
(19:12):
thinking about what I want to do, being a bit meticulous.
Meticulous, it's okay to bemeticulous in life.
I know in fast organizationsthat is the first victim, but I
take my time these days.
That's what's changed a bitfrom the fast product
environment yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'd love to hear some insights about your executive
time behind the scenes because,hearing the way that you think,
you obviously think like aproduct manager, which is a huge
asset to you.
But what I'm envisioning justbeing a fellow business owner is
I realize you have a team, youhave to manage them.
You have clients.
You're managing them.
You also kind of lingering overall of our conversation today
is you're also growingstrategically the business
(19:52):
development side of things.
You have to manage the salesprocess.
You have to get new clients.
Clients talk to us about howyou organize that, because I
would imagine that as a productmanager, you have a very
systematic way of doing it allyeah, I, I didn't do everything
at one shot.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So, uh, when I first started, like, this is 2023,
around september.
October is when things startedfalling into place, maybe by
january of 2024 is when I reallystarted.
I registered the LLC, forexample, only in January 2024.
But I knew, first thing, I needa lead generation website.
So I started from the.
(20:26):
I knew I couldn't do it myself.
I had that realization inOctober of the year prior and
that's why I reached out.
Like you mentioned, I have agood team behind me.
A lot of the website, a lot ofthe copywriting, marketing is
done by Lauren Demarest, who isanother entrepreneur herself.
She may be a good fit for thisepisode.
She's actually.
(20:47):
She has a vacation studio,exercise studio in Mykonos,
greece, and then I have myAustin, who is also someone I've
worked with a lot in the past.
So if there's something thatdoesn't involve the business
side of the studio, the leadgeneration side of the studio, I
(21:07):
do try to get people to help meto move it along, and if I
hadn't done that, I would neverbe here on this podcast.
Even I don't think anyone wouldknow who I was.
No one does, even now, but I'mjust saying it wouldn't have
gotten this much traction.
Get people to help you andtrust their work.
How I work with others, I dogive frameworks and objectives.
(21:32):
I'd never go and say like makethis blue, make this green, kind
of stuff.
Just let people work.
Give them space as you wouldlike space myself.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, really good advice there, and I love the
fact that it's a glimpse intohow you actually operate, not
just advice that you're givingon a podcast episode, but this
is the real way that you'regrowing your business product on
point.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Like you mentioned, right the process, right, so I
quit the answer midway.
So the the uh.
So that was the first thing.
Well, I need a website.
So I didn't think about salesand marketing at that time.
I was like I need a website.
And second one was I need tobuild trust with anyone that
comes, so I was like I needcustomers it's like, when you go
uh, I've heard so I haven'tdone this in my life, but I or
(22:13):
when it's m it, for example,they would always say when
you're starting off a newstartup, the when you go for
funding, the first question youget asked is how many customers
do you have?
Even though you haven't startedyet.
So that that's just how it is,and so so I knew I needed to get
testimonials.
So that was.
I just hit milestone aftermilestone, let me get
testimonies, let me getcustomers, let me get promotion.
(22:35):
So then had a linkedin page setup, and maybe from the start of
this year, I was like, like youmentioned, uh, I need to get a
sales pipeline going, so I justuh bought, I purchased a product
for to get me those lists, and,uh, that's what I'm working on
right now, though and I've neverdone this part of the business
before, I've never been on thisside uh, so I actually had a old
(22:58):
colleague of mine help me withit.
So get the help.
You're not going to do this onyour own.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yes, honestly, I love that.
I love how open you are aboutyour approach to growing and
building the thing that you'vealways dreamed of, and you're
involving others, so you'rebuilding a shared thing, which
is really cool, because it'skind of like the projects that
you deliver to others.
You guys are builders forothers, so I really love that
you have to collaborate.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You can never do it if you don't.
You know, I know in america alot of the uh, I swear the tech
groups right, I mean they'regonna be very, uh, football
analogies there's always aquarterback and I think they
envision the product manager asa quarterback.
But you know, I grew up withsoccer, obviously not american
football.
Uh, so for me I kind of look atproduct magic differently, as
someone that you know I grew upwith soccer, obviously not
American football.
So for me I kind of look atproduct manager differently, as
someone that you know drives therhythm of the game, decides
(23:42):
when to pass, who to pass, tokeep things moving in the right
directions, like a defensivemidfielder, to be honest.
So that's so it changes.
It changes your perspective,because that's your frame of
reference and you see thatchange because if quarterbacks
think they're quarterback, theythink they're the quarterback.
They're not listening to whatanyone is saying and not much
(24:02):
feedback is getting in.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, I love that analogy.
Naren, you're on a good soccershow as well, so I agree with
you.
The defensive midfielder, agood number six, is what's going
to drive the entire teamforward.
That's what I'm saying.
I want to ask you about thisbecause, just knowing the way
that your technical brain worksand the fact that you've seen
the insides of so many coolprojects and you guys are also
building things for others howhas AI changed the landscape on
(24:24):
both the client side, the waythat you operate and also
internally?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I think, for example, when you said building a sales
pipeline before I mean back inthe day.
Back in the day means last yearor was it one and a half years
ago you had to spend like$15,000 to get one of these Zoom
infos or whatnot.
Now they have these AI tools.
I use CMS AI, for example.
It's affordable.
It's like $150 a month ifyou're starting out.
(24:49):
It's making things accessiblethat you probably couldn't
before.
It's making things faster.
I don't.
I wouldn't say it is makinglike I don't.
I wouldn't put like just typean email with a sentence, like
that kind of stuff.
It actually iscounterproductive.
I found you do need to bringyour personality to email.
(25:11):
It doesn't mean you put thetype the whole thing yourself
and do have AI, have a goodcheck on it, extend it, make it
better, all these kinds ofthings.
In that aspect, ai has beenmagnificent for me.
It's made my emails look a lotmore professional after I've
typed them and a lot better.
Definitely the proposals I'vedone for some of the customers.
No way I was doing that withoutAI.
I wouldn't sit down and writesuch a huge document without AI.
(25:36):
But AI is not giving the ideas,polishing your image.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, really well said.
I think it's important forpeople to always remember that
role that it can play.
It's a collaborative partner,but it's not the end all be all
and it's certainly not the endresult.
So I really love that.
Naren, while we have you here,I will say that selfishly I
always enjoy askingentrepreneurs about their time
horizon, because everybody, Ifind, thinks about time in the
future in so many different ways.
Here we are talking about AI.
(26:04):
We have no idea what's gonnaexist 12 months from now.
It's really exciting to thinkabout that.
I'm a big fan of working inquarters.
I believe that a quarter 90days is a lot of time that you
can be both actionable and youcan do some really big things.
Where's your time horizon?
Go Thinking about the fact thatyour most cherished product is
your business product on pointand you're building that product
(26:27):
out as well.
What's that time horizon looklike and what sort of targets do
you set for yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I'll tell you none.
Actually, I do have yearlytargets, like this year.
I was like I'm going to looklast year, 2024.
I was like I'm going to makethis look like a legitimate
business is what my goal was,and it took me the whole year to
do it.
Initially I had targets andtimelines.
I'm going to do this quarter,that quarter.
It's just putting too muchpressure on yourself.
(26:52):
There's a lot of stuff you'regoing to have to figure out.
It takes a lot of time.
Just keep it chill is what Isay.
But if I were working for acustomer, that's different.
In my career, when I worked onProject with Customers, for
example, I do have like six-weekdeliverables right.
You do it like six weeks istwo-week sprints, like a trilogy
(27:13):
the start, the middle, the end,a nice story arc.
Six-week deliverables is how Iwork and I do guarantee and I
have done this in previouscompanies I've worked in that is
, 90-day MVPs.
That is, we're going to get yougoing in 90 days or less.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, gosh, I love that, and I know that listeners'
ears will perk up becausethey'll probably be thinking
Naren, what's behind the scenespowering all this?
You have some favorite tools orproject management systems that
keep all of these things ontrack?
Actually, no.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It's not there yet.
The scale is not yet there.
I have 10 customers.
I'm trying to manage stuff withit, but one of the biggest
tools I use is Notion.
It's great for me because whenI write these proposals, one of
the things I was particularabout was I wanted to be a
studio that is essentially witha consulting agency.
I guess I wanted to be a studiothat is essentially with a
consulting agency, I guess, butI wanted to be a little bit of a
(28:06):
difference.
Like 10% should be a littleedgy.
But I'm going to be workingwith customers that are used to
reading Word documents, pdfdocuments, but I wanted them to
instantly feel they're going tobe somewhere else.
So I wanted a notion and I wantto give them a webpage and I
want to move things in theproposal around.
Put some color, make it looklike an article that you're
(28:29):
reading, make it fun.
If a lawyer reads a Worddocument, they're very
comfortable.
They'll see a Notion page.
Suddenly they're like I need to.
Something interesting ishappening here.
So that was something I did andit is value for money for me.
I'm not a Notion advertiser.
It was value for money becauseyou can do many things like for
(28:52):
some customers.
I just can create the customercenter for them.
Their whole documentation isthere.
Uh, their progress.
You can do jira queues and allthis kind of stuff.
Uh, swim lanes with notion.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It's a very cost effective tool, yeah I love the
fact that that's the one thatyou picked, and you also had
that disclaimer of you're notsponsored by them.
You're not sponsored by them.
We're not sponsored by themeither, but I cannot stop
talking about how good Notion is.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I saw you guys had the same thing.
She gave me the webpage.
I'm like, okay, these guys, Isee it.
I see what's happening here.
But I know Notion doesn't haveso many fans.
I'm a big fan and I know mycustomers.
I've looked at their eyes whenthey looked at the proposal.
Like well, because you can movethings around a bit makes it
fun yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Notion is an absolutely incredible tool.
Old noreen, you have given usso many food, so many things to
think about, so much food forthought, so many growth
opportunities.
And what I really appreciateabout you is not only the way
that you operate on your clientsand your projects and the way
that you operate internally, butthat entrepreneurial mind, that
executive mind that has reallyhelped you flourish and build an
awesome team.
So, with all of thatentrepreneurial mind, that
executive mind that has reallyhelped you flourish and build an
awesome team, so, with all ofthat in mind and with that hat
(29:50):
on, I love to ask this questionat the end of interviews.
And that is what's your bestpiece of advice Knowing that
we're being listened to by bothentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs
at all different stages of theirown growth journeys.
What's that one thing that youwant to leave them with from
today's episode?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I think one of the biggest traits I think that has
really helped me decide to dothe studio, decide to get it
this far it's not that far, butto get a better at this was
absolutely a belief in myself.
You definitely need to believein yourself.
You don't have all the answers,you don't know what you're
(30:27):
doing, but do believe that youknow you will get to that
milestone, either by strugglingor whatever, calling people
fighting.
You'll get there, just backyourself.
And if you're not, if you'regetting too panicky, then maybe
it's time to think about how toget yourself confident about
(30:48):
your work.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes, really well said .
An important advice listeners,this is the reality from
entrepreneur to entrepreneurs,that we always will have those
moments of self-doubt, but wehave to back ourselves.
I love the way you articulatethat in Iran.
I also know that listeners willbe keen to check out all the
great work that you're up towith product on point.
I personally loved readingthrough the fact that you've got
case studies on there.
You list out your services,your process, lots of good stuff
(31:12):
going on behind the scenes atProduct on Point.
So drop those links on us.
Where should listeners go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Hey, visit productonpointcom.
It has a hyphen within producthyphen on hyphen point because
product on point was taken.
Do visit our LinkedIn page.
Just search for product onpoint on LinkedIn.
Follow it.
We do have a bunch of our casestudies and what we do, who we
are over there.
If you're looking for advice onwhat you should do as a product
(31:41):
manager on our page, probablynot.
I think there's a lot of niceabout that.
Already on LinkedIn for us,you're going to see our work,
you're going to see our casestudies, who we are, what we do,
and it will hopefully we canilluminate you guys on who, how
we go about our businessesthrough the examples that we set
yes, so well said.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Listeners, don't mind the hyphens because you can
click right on through.
Down below in the show notes,no matter where it is that
you're tuning into today'sepisode, you'll find a link to
Narayan's business website,productonpointcom, with some
hyphens in betweenproduct-on-pointcom, but you can
click right on through.
So definitely check the shownotes out down below.
Otherwise, narayan, on behalfof myself and all the listeners
(32:20):
worldwide, thanks so much forcoming on the show today.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to give a shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
(32:48):
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomewantrepreneurs and entrepreneurs
, that they contribute to helpus make these productions
(33:11):
possible.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always every Monday, wednesday,friday, saturday and Sunday
(33:35):
here on the Wantrepreneur toEntrepreneur podcast.
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