June 3, 2025 • 49 mins
Navigating the treacherous waters of marine insurance shouldn't require a law degree, yet many business owners find themselves caught in a regulatory storm with potentially devastating financial consequences. In this eye-opening conversation, Kristina Hebert sits down with Ian Greenway, president of LIG Marine Managers, to demystify the Longshore and Harbor Workers' Compensation Act (LHWCA) that continues to ensnare unsuspecting marine businesses.
The duo walks us through their decade-long legislative battle to reform the outdated "65-foot rule" that arbitrarily determined which vessels fell under federal jurisdiction. You'll hear how they successfully modified federal law in 2009, only to face new complications when the Department of Labor issued problematic regulations in 2012 that created a confusing patchwork of definitions for "recreational vessels."
Greenway shares shocking real-world examples, including a recent $600,000 claim against a boatyard when an uninsured subcontractor was injured on the premises. This cautionary tale underscores why every marine business should consider "if any" Longshore coverage—often available for as little as $200-250 annually—that provides not just claim protection but unlimited defense costs against potential lawsuits.
Whether you're a marina operator, boat builder, or marine service provider, this episode delivers practical advice on protecting your business. Learn how to properly track payroll to separate state and federal exposures, discover the importance of working with a Certified Marine Insurance Professional (CMIP), and understand why allowing contractors without proper insurance onto your premises creates massive liability exposure. Don't miss this essential guide to safeguarding your marine business from potentially catastrophic claims that could sink your operation.
For additional information about marine and Longshore insurance, please refer to the links provided below.
LIG Marine Managers: https://www.ligmarine.com/
Certified Marine Insurance Professionals: https://www.iimis.com/
Wards Marine Electric
https://www.wardsmarine.com/
Wards Way YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@WardsWay75
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristina Hebert (00:00):
Welcome to the Season 3 Wards Way podcast,
where we're covering the hotlegislative topics of 2025.
From tariffs to tunnels andbridges, from foreign trade
zones to workers' compensation,to the Fort Lauderdale
International Boat Show, to theMarine Research Hub, industry
(00:22):
experts and clarification on theB-11, b2 visas.
Join us as we celebrate 75years in business and we're just
getting started.
So welcome everybody to seasonthree of the Wardsway Podcast.
I'm here with my very dearfriend, ian Greenway, who's
president of CEO of LIG MarineManagers.
(00:42):
I got it wrong CEO.
Okay, now I can talk about this.
Your son is the president.
Ian Greenway (00:47):
My son is the president.
Kristina Hebert (00:48):
Okay, so see we like multi-generational
businesses, so congratulationson that, Thank you.
And you guys have been inbusiness 30?
, 36 years, now 36 years.
Ian Greenway (00:56):
Congratulations to that, not quite as long as
awards no.
Kristina Hebert (01:05):
We're trying to catch up.
That's right.
That's right.
Ian Greenway (01:06):
Well, you and I have worked together, though for
going on quite some time.
Kristina Hebert (01:08):
Yes, yes, we will just leave it at that, but
I have a book here that I got,so so how do you want to tell
the story of how we first met,or should I tell the story?
Because I'll tell the story.
So I have this book foreverybody to see and it's from
June of 2000.
So when I first started atWards in 1996, I was going to be
(01:29):
a law student and become alawyer and my dad said to me
there's enough lawyers in theworld.
And he said but if you reallywant to get involved in
something legislatively, I havesomething for you and it's just
not right.
I think we pay way too much onthis workers comp thing that
I've been telling you about andthis is how he phrased it and I
(01:51):
think you should look into itand see if there's something you
know, you want to.
You want to be into politicsand legislative.
See what there's something youcan do.
So I called my insurance agentsat the time and I said how do I
find out more about thisLongshore and Harbor Workers
Compensation Act that we'repaying all this extra federal
(02:11):
workers count for?
And they said oh, you have togo to a seminar.
Come with us to see IanGreenway.
He's doing a what do you callit with your continuing
education credits?
Ian Greenway (02:21):
That's right.
Kristina Hebert (02:22):
And so you were doing a seminar, and so I went
to your first seminar and waitedfor you, where you went through
who's a?
A longshoreman and I rememberyou wore all these hats that you
know is a painter, alongshoreman is a.
What were some of theconstruction?
What were some of your hats.
Ian Greenway (02:40):
Yeah, chef, chef, that's right.
Kristina Hebert (02:43):
And then obviously the cap captain,
deckhand, correct and none ofthem were longshoremen, um well
it was anybody circumstance.
So okay, so maybe I need to takethe course again.
And um, and then I went to itand I remember raising my hand
and saying, well, why is itlimited?
Because at the it applied torecreational vessels over 65
(03:05):
feet.
And I remember raising my handand saying, why is it at 65 feet
?
And you said good question, butit is what it is.
And I said, well, do you thinkwe can change it?
And you said probably notduring this course, but I'll
talk to you after.
And probably like, why is this?
And then I think I went to twoor three more of them and
finally you were like, do youreally want to talk about
something or what?
And so then we started talkingabout how could we change it,
(03:31):
and my recollection was that wewanted to get rid of the footage
, not just increase the footage.
And what was your thought onthat?
Ian Greenway (03:39):
I mean, it made sense.
I mean back when the act wasput into force.
The 65-foot was really derivedaround how vessels were
constructed, and beyond 65-footthey were being built more like
a ship than they were a yacht.
Right Then, as constructiontechniques changed, that sort of
went away.
(04:00):
You know, you can build a200-foot vessel today, pretty
much the same as you build a20-foot vessel.
I'm not going to pop outhundreds of them, but that was
really the background of the65-foot.
But the real driving force Ithink back then was we had a
surcharge set by the NCCI forthe state of Florida of 2.65
(04:21):
times the rate.
So if you had a workers' comprate of $10 back, then, you were
paying $26.50 per 100 payroll.
Today that's less than a 50 centrise in rate, but it was just.
It was ridiculously expensiveand the losses weren't justified
.
Kristina Hebert (04:38):
And also without getting too technical.
So what I learned in thatprocess was too technical.
So what I learned in thatprocess was, first off, we
probably shouldn't be includedin it.
We felt, my family and I, thatwell geez in 1984, if they were
trying to get rid of therecreational industry which at
the time my understanding wasthere really wasn't a boat built
(04:59):
in the US bigger than that 65feet, which I think could be a
myth.
I'm not sure.
Ian Greenway (05:05):
I think it was definitely mostly.
Kristina Hebert (05:07):
But it was intended to capture the industry
and exclude it, and so, overtime, it was just that that
footage had gotten, had becomesomewhat irrelevant into the
size of the way the industry wasgrowing, but also, like you
said, it really was a hugeoperating expense for us and
unknown.
So we had this surcharge and alot of that has to do with.
(05:31):
Well, before we get into that,I'd like to talk about you and
your company and how long you'vebeen doing this and what made
you talk to that strange girlgoing to your continuing
education credits and course,and give me some of your
background so that the listenersand the audience understand why
you're the expert.
Ian Greenway (05:49):
Well, mostly because I'm curious, I think is
the simple answer to thatquestion.
I started LIG now 36 years agoand we were writing a lot of
different marine insurance.
We were described as an MGA ora wholesaler.
We don't deal directly with thepublic.
We deal with the agents whohave a specific need for marine
(06:10):
insurance and, quite frankly,somebody came to me very early
on in the LIG days and said canyou write Longshore?
My answer to that question waswhat's Longshore?
Kristina Hebert (06:22):
I'd never heard really.
Oh yeah, oh wow never really.
Ian Greenway (06:25):
I mean, I'd heard of it in passing but I really
didn't know, uh, how it workedor what it what it did, um, and
obviously the first passes ofthat were the very heavy
commercial operations, thecontainer ports, the shipyards
and things like that.
But the more I studied it, andin fact the more I taught it to
people, uh, the more Iunderstand how it affected
(06:46):
industries, particularly therecreational marine industry,
where it just was never intendedto do that.
Correct, it was really intendedto deal with the commercial.
They set up some exclusionarylanguage in there but it wasn't
horribly clear exactly who wasexcluded and who wasn't.
And then, as you said, the65-foot limitation was there.
(07:06):
But I've always been a verycurious person.
When I want to find out aboutsomething, I want to go
wholeheartedly in it and thenstarting to teach it, as you
were one of the I want to say,the first attendees at the
seminars, but fairly early on.
Kristina Hebert (07:20):
Yeah.
Ian Greenway (07:21):
You are put in a position where you have to learn
more about it.
Absolutely, you can't stand upin front of people and say, you
know, I don't know what this is,but here's a here's long shore
you goodbye well and we act likethis has been part of our
original constitution since 17,so you know 76, and it hasn't.
Kristina Hebert (07:37):
I mean it came about in the 1926 but then it,
and then it was largelyuntouched for decades.
And then it came about andthere was an amendment in the
70s.
Ian Greenway (07:50):
Early 70s, and then another one in the early
80s.
Kristina Hebert (07:52):
In the early 80s, and I think it was just as
the maritime industry startedgrowing and morphing and having
a true recreational industry.
I mean clearly in 1926, whilethere were luxury yachts at the
time, I don't think we werelooking at them at the same
level as an industry.
I mean clearly in 1926, weweren't.
While there were luxury yachtsat the time, I don't think we
were looking at them at the samelevel as an industry.
And so the Longshore Act reallywas created.
What I also learned through youwas, as a gap-filling measure,
(08:16):
so we had the Jones Act.
That's been around since the1800s and that covers 1926.
19, same thing.
Ian Greenway (08:23):
Yeah, pretty close .
Okay, six years difference.
Kristina Hebert (08:24):
All right.
So, boy, you got to fact checkme.
Come on so 1920s.
So we were dealing with theJones Act, and then we have
state workers' compensation soland-based.
And when were all of those?
Ian Greenway (08:38):
First state workers' compensation just
around the turn of the 1900s,okay, and New York was certainly
the first state.
Kristina Hebert (08:44):
I think was 1898 or thereabouts okay, so
we're actually coming up on the100th anniversary of the
longshore act very apropos nextyear.
Next year, wow okay, we'll haveto have some sort of and it
flipped um.
Ian Greenway (08:57):
it was mostly to give a common element of
coverage to anybody in whateverstate they felt that maritime
work, whether it's the Jones Act, the crew side or the longshore
side, the land-based workerswere going to get the same set
of benefits, regardless if theywere in New York, new Jersey,
florida, california, anywhere inthe country.
It followed along from theRailroad Act, which were a
(09:27):
little earlier I think they wereabout 1914, 1912, somewhere in
that range and again, that wasto give a uniform set of
benefits and that was the thebasis, um, but when it was
started it was a named act.
In other words, you werecovered if you were in one of
the named professions okay,loading, unloading a vessel if
you were working in a porthandling lines, handling cargo,
repairing a ship those were thename ones.
(09:49):
And it flipped in those 70s and80s changes into be you're
covered unless you're excluded.
That was the big change in thehistory.
Kristina Hebert (09:57):
And why do you think I mean this one definitely
?
We haven't ever really talkedabout.
Why do you think there was apush for the exclusion just
because it wasn't what it wasintended to do?
Ian Greenway (10:06):
Yeah, I think it was really a development.
I mean, commercial dock workersin the early 20th century were
very different to thelongshoremen of today.
You know, they could be pushingbuttons and things like that.
I think it's really how theindustry developed.
There was definitely a bigseparation between the
commercial work and therecreational work, definitely a
big separation between thecommercial work and the
(10:27):
recreational work back in the1920s, 1930s and those lines
kept blurring and blurring.
So they really flipped it tobring in a whole set of workers
again, which I don't think itwas ever really intended to do.
But all the repair and servicepeople on the rec market got
dragged in almost by mistake.
Kristina Hebert (10:45):
So I know that in looking at it, one of my
arguments to you was if theyattempted to.
When I say they, if the federalgovernment attempted to capture
the industry and exclude it,can we get them to go bigger on
the footage?
But it was also one of yourcomments originally to me on the
(11:05):
footage.
But it was also one of yourcomments originally to me.
And our original goal was notnecessarily to change the
federal act.
It was let's talk to NCCINational Council on Compensation
Insurance that establishes therates for workers' comp, because
the government says we have tohave it, but it doesn't have to
say that it has to be asurcharge.
So explain that surcharge.
How did we end up there?
Ian Greenway (11:28):
Just really to try and control the costs.
I mean, if it was, long-shorebenefits will always be more
than state benefits.
The long-shore benefits ofcourse are federal, so you're
supposed to get pretty much thesame wherever you are in the
country.
But different states havedifferent levels of benefits.
If you go up to Connecticut,for example, it's a very closely
(11:50):
matched to the longshore, sothere's not a lot of surcharge
there.
But the perception of thebenefit levels here in Florida
versus the longshore levels wasat that 256 mark back when we
started around 2000.
And really the losses justdidn't support that.
It was way overcharged and Ibelieve that that was wrong and
(12:15):
it made people not buy becauseit was so expensive.
To make it affordable and toget it into a point where the
losses and premiums were roughlyin balance, you could bring
that surcharge down.
We were successful for themarine contractors to actually
get a specific code for marinecontractors.
(12:37):
Today they were paying $50 to$60 back in 2000s.
Now they're paying, I think,the latest rate somewhere in the
10 dollar range so let's talkabout that.
Kristina Hebert (12:48):
So what I wanted to get to was that part
of the reason that therecreational industry so ncci
comes up with this wholeclassification codes a giant
book that has every industry anda code, and then there are um
actuarials that go in and saythis is what the inherent risk
of this type of work.
(13:08):
It's given a rating, so tospeak, and that's how risky you
are and therefore that's whatyour premium is per $100 of
payroll.
Right Is that?
But the recreational marineindustry didn't have an
established class code, so itwas just in a surcharge code.
Ian Greenway (13:27):
Yeah, it's interesting you know you had the
.
I mean Marina has always hadestablished state act rate and
longshore rate and here inFlorida they typically been
somewhere in the 10% to 20%difference in pricing.
You know, if the Marina baserate was 11, you might be
charged 12 or 13 for thelongshore portion.
Right Reasonable somethingpredictable it is and something
(13:51):
easily to track and to measure.
The problem is the singlediscipline contractor doesn't
fall into that.
So somebody that's, let's say,a fiberglass.
How about electricians?
Electrician, that's right.
Good example.
I wonder where that came from.
Yeah, I don't know.
You know an electrician, youget classified as an electrician
and there is no marineelectrician, that's right.
(14:12):
So you were suffering, yourgroup of companies were
suffering from that 2.56, sorry,2.65 surcharge.
So your base rate that might'vebeen $10 would have been $26.50
.
That's outrageously expensiveand not warranted.
And not warranted because itwas never based on claims.
All those other rates werebased on.
(14:35):
How much premium did we collect?
How much payroll was there andhow many claims?
How much in dollar terms werethe claims?
That's how the actuaries workedit.
But when they created thesurcharge, or when they create
the surcharge even today, theylook at the benefit levels that
are written in the law.
They look at the benefit levelsthat are written in the
(14:55):
Longshore Act and make acomparison of the two.
So, it's a very hypotheticalnumber.
It was never really supportedby strong natural aerial data.
Boat building had the same.
Recreational boat building hadthe same thing.
They had a longshore rate inthere it was again typically 10,
15, 20% more than the base rate.
(15:16):
So again affordable, relativelyeasy to get and based on facts
of claims.
Kristina Hebert (15:23):
So I guess where I wanted people to
understand is this was amulti-pronged approach, so one
we were talking about.
Let's figure out what it lookslike to change the act.
So we have that going.
Let's make the footagesomething that makes sense, and
at the time it was in the early2000s.
At the same time it was well,let's talk to NCCI about this
(15:44):
surcharge and find out what isit based on.
We were able to do some of ourown actuarial data through some
of these classification codes tosee what were the claims did
not offset the premiums thatwere being generated, and also
(16:05):
we found that the number ofclaims went down the more
specialized the field.
So talk about that.
Ian Greenway (16:13):
I mean, the ideal way of doing it would be to have
a marine electrician's classcode, a longshore class code
that goes with that, just likethe builders and the marinas.
But there's not that many inyour profession, correct?
So it didn't give them enoughactuarial base.
I can't say I agree with allthe NCCI arguments.
(16:34):
I thought there should be arecreational marine repair class
code.
Kristina Hebert (16:38):
Correct.
And we talked about that, wedid and we pursued that.
Ian Greenway (16:41):
Yeah, but again you'd have to take.
You know you've got some highhazard type of jobs in there.
Obviously engine repair is alittle bit more high hazard than
fiberglass repair or things.
Sure, you know some base levelones Rigging, for example would
be a tough one.
So trying to group thosedifferent industries together
(17:01):
would have been tough, and I getit.
Kristina Hebert (17:03):
And sometimes be careful.
What you ask for right, youknow, because maybe they'll come
out with a rate that's firm,fixed, but it's not really at a
number that you wanted.
Ian Greenway (17:11):
Yeah, and you know , the people who were in low
rate classification would havebeen pushed up a little bit to
get into that combined one andmaybe the high would gain a
little bit.
But I think the real work thatpaid off on the rating side was
gradually chipping away at thatsurcharge.
Kristina Hebert (17:29):
Yes.
Ian Greenway (17:30):
I think it's in the high 40% now.
So again, not cheap, but it'scertainly much better than the
265 we had.
Kristina Hebert (17:39):
Well, and I do think you know, ultimately the
goal.
Ironically, while it soundslike it's cut, remove, exclude,
all these terms that we're using, what was happening is our
industry was largely that the$26 to $30 per $100 of payroll.
But it's at a disadvantage forus with our competitor that
(18:13):
maybe isn't paying at all.
But then, number two, you haveemployees going without coverage
, so they're taking theexemption.
So if you're with a company, ifyou have a business of five
employees or less, threeemployees or less, you can claim
the state comp exemption.
And then people were sayingwell, I don't need the longshore
(18:34):
, you have to have the statecomp in order to get the
longshore, but I'm excluded fromstate comp, so I don't really
need the longshore.
So how can the government forceme to do it and how do I get in
?
And it was causing just a lotof confusion.
Ian Greenway (18:50):
But at the end of the day, workers were going
without coverage and that's notwhat we wanted.
Yeah, and I think it'simportant to remember where the
law in Florida and I think itwas sent a mixed message say if
you don't have more than threeemployees, you're not forced to
buy workers comp insurance.
Okay, other than in theconstruction field true
construction, sure, residentialcommercial, it's one employee,
(19:12):
but that doesn't take away theliability.
So if your employee is injuredwith two employees and you
haven't bought workers' comp,you end up having to pay those
benefits without any insurancebehind.
I think that's a terribly badmixed message.
Yes, you can quote exempt fromit, but it doesn't take away
that liability.
Kristina Hebert (19:27):
And also as a business.
If you're not providing that toyour employees, you can be sued
.
Ian Greenway (19:32):
Absolutely.
You pay state or long-shorebenefits, and then you have
potential for liability on topof it.
Kristina Hebert (19:38):
Right, whereas if you have those policies in
place, you cannot be sued forthat.
Ian Greenway (19:43):
Correct, they're called sole remedy policies.
So if you have workers' compand if you have the longshore
exposure, you have longshorecoverage enforced the suit.
You can't stop somebody suingyou.
But it's an instant dismissal,it's just go away, it's sole
remedy.
There's no tool, gotcha.
Kristina Hebert (20:00):
So we're going to get to where we are today and
kind of go through like alittle.
Is this myth versus fact?
Tell me the truth.
But before we get to that, wewere successful in modifying the
act which is critical in thesense that it is the foundation
of really the labor unions inthis country correct the
(20:22):
Longshore and Harbor WorkersCompensation Act, and we were
able to modify the exclusionsfor recreational vessels, not
from a build perspective butfrom a repair and dismantle.
So let's talk about that.
What were we able to get?
Ian Greenway (20:40):
Well, simplistically, we managed to
get the and you led the effort,so you probably know this even
better than I do we managed toget the 65-foot rule removed for
repair of recreational vessels.
Okay, um, we thought as we'regoing through the process the 65
foot was going to disappear.
Um, completely, somewhere atthe last minute the
(21:01):
manufacturers decided theydidn't want to have that change.
So still, the building andmanufacturing has that 65 foot
limitation in it.
That does present someinteresting problems, because
the person who's repairing anold vessel say doing HVAC work
on an old vessel fairly highhazard job, handling, duct work
(21:23):
and that type of thing, becauseit's a repair job, is
recreational.
It's a state act claim.
If they do it on a new buildit's exactly the same work,
probably a safer job becausethey're working as the hull's
being built, clean materials,things like that.
If that vessel's over 65 footit's a longshore job and that
(21:44):
seems wrong to me because thebalance is that's the same boat,
right?
Well, not just the same boat.
It's actually a more modern,easier to work on vessel.
Kristina Hebert (21:52):
No, I meant it's the same boat.
If, for example, it's beingbuilt and then later it goes to
a marina for repair, it's theexact same boat, but over here
it was a longshore vesselenvironment when it's being
constructed and yet at themarina where it's being repaired
, it's not.
Ian Greenway (22:09):
It's excluded.
It's crazy, yeah, and it's thesame boat.
If anything, it should be theother way around, because the
more high hazard is the repairwork.
Kristina Hebert (22:15):
Absolutely not.
Who invited you?
No, no, but you're right, and Ithink part of the reason that
the builders were not sointerested in changing the law
is because they had thepredictable rates.
It was a predictable cost thatwent into the operations of it,
(22:37):
and so there wasn't really aline of confusion and it wasn't
costing jobs.
Workers were having coverage.
It wasn't the same scenariowhere it was for the yards, the
marinas and the repair industrythat workers were truly going
without coverage.
Ian Greenway (22:51):
And I think you know for a builder it's a little
easier because if I'm buildingthat 70, 80-foot yacht, I've got
a gang working on that.
That's very clear, it's defined, it's a three, six, 12-month
job, correct.
Whereas repair you could beworking on a 60-foot one day and
a 70-foot the next, or evenmorning and afternoon.
So much harder to track and, aswe talked about before, the
(23:13):
builder had established rateswhere there wasn't a huge
surcharge between the state actand the longshore.
Kristina Hebert (23:20):
Right.
Ian Greenway (23:20):
Because they had that established longshore rate.
Kristina Hebert (23:23):
Well, and I have to say we did learn a lot
in going.
Do you remember how many billswe actually introduced before
this got A?
number, remember how many billswe actually introduced before
this got a number, a number andum, and in case anybody doesn't
know how um our uh governmentworks, actually every every two
years, no matter what, if thebill doesn't pass, then you have
to start all over and find anew bill sponsor and a new, and
(23:45):
so I was.
I was looking back.
When we testified beforecongress, it was during the
108th.
When we testified beforeCongress, it was during the
108th Congress and it was inJuly, and you and I had an
opportunity.
Ian Greenway (23:59):
And it was HR 1329 was our bill.
Kristina Hebert (24:00):
Well, I remember because I looked it up
and I was trying to find.
I was trying to find the video.
That would have been good.
We could be segwaying into 20year old video of each of us,
you know, back then, but Icouldn't find it.
But I did find it sointeresting that after we did
all of these testimonies, we didthese hearings, we spent time
(24:22):
with NCCI, we talked to themabout the claims versus the
premiums, we talked about theseexemptions and how they should
be across the board and therecreation industry has
different inherent and in theend, I believe it was on about
page 832 of the AmericanRestoration and Recovery Act the
(24:44):
Obama Act of 2009, and it wasin a very strict parliamentary
sentence and I've never been sothrilled to see that happen.
Ian Greenway (24:56):
It was 10 years from the day we basically
started the process.
It was 10 years.
Kristina Hebert (24:59):
Yeah, and that took 10 years and sadly that was
16 years ago.
Ian Greenway (25:08):
You can fudge the math a little.
Kristina Hebert (25:09):
I know, yeah, we can fudge that, it was just
not long ago.
We'll say that.
So fast forward.
How did it all work out?
And I will say today where weare.
I believe one that we weresuccessful in I don't know if we
had a hand in maybe modifyingthose rates.
I mean, what made all the rateskind of come down and become?
(25:31):
Where are we today?
Ian Greenway (25:33):
Well, let's just say, I think you know, when 2009
rolled around and it was inerror, we were celebrating.
Yeah, it really was a big winto make that modification, which
was the last one for 26 yearsbefore that Correct.
So the problem then became whenthey In 2012.
2012, when they published theregulations to interpret that
(25:57):
act and they did it I think itwas on Christmas Eve or New
Year's Eve, it was just rightover the holidays, it was.
They thought that somebodywould pay attention and it just
made everything so much morecomplicated.
If we just stayed where we werein 2009, I think we wouldn't be
having this conversation today.
Kristina Hebert (26:14):
So from a civics perspective.
So we were able to successfullymodify the act.
There was a bill in Congress,multiple bills, we went through
multiple hearings but in the endthere was a strict
parliamentarian language insertinto a huge omnibus bill that
was able to change the act in2009, but then fast forward in
(26:36):
2012.
The department of labor thatimplements the laws that
congress passes as it relatesspecifically to the longshore
act it falls under thedepartment of labor agency, I
guess did a rule implementationand decided to modify the
definition of recreationalvessel, and I absolutely 100% my
podcast so I could say it.
(26:57):
I believe it was 100% done as apunitive.
It was they didn't like it.
Nobody wanted this bill to bechanged.
It was, if I heard any more ofthose, the the camel's nose
under the tent, the slipperyslope that somehow this was,
that we were actually the truethe um, the people that were
(27:20):
going to be single-handedlyresponsible for taking all of
these people out of the federalworkers comp system, and that
really was not at all what wewere trying to do.
We were trying to stick to ourlittle recreational marine
industry.
So so the Department of Laborcame along and redefined what a
recreational vessel was, andwhat has that done At that?
Ian Greenway (27:35):
point.
Nobody really had that question.
Kristina Hebert (27:39):
Nobody ever asked me to define a
recreational vessel, it hadalways been primarily used for
pleasure.
Ian Greenway (27:45):
Yeah, if we look at it you could tell it was a
recreational vessel, yep.
Then all these regulations camein and it was just.
It was so complicated.
I mean I built like a matrix totry and understand all those to
put into a set of definitionand there's some really oddball
sort of nuances in here.
You know, bare boat chartersover 12 passengers are
(28:06):
considered longshore, but ifit's 11 passengers it's not.
Kristina Hebert (28:09):
And again, you know that's just crazy that that
has never had anything to dowith no right.
Ian Greenway (28:13):
And then inspected vessel versus uninspected
vessel yeah, just, they're justsome crazy things and that's
really where um created so muchconfusion and and you can sit
and go into any marina here.
Look at a sport fish and one ofits used as a six-pack charter
and it's considered commercialunder these new 2012 regulations
(28:35):
.
And the next vessel, which is apersonal vessel looking
identical, is a state act vessel.
It's a non-longshore vessel andit's just a crazy set of
definitions that would derivepredominantly from that
rulemaking.
Kristina Hebert (28:51):
That would derive predominantly from that
rulemaking.
I agree, and what I try toremind people too is that
longshore and workers' compcomes after the fact.
So somebody gets hurt, thenthey try to decide who's going
to be responsible.
So walk me through that.
So right now I'm in a yard, Iam an employee I'll give you
various scenarios.
(29:11):
So I'm a sole proprietor andI'm in a yard and I have
provided my state comp exemption, but I fall and get hurt in a
yard.
What happens?
Ian Greenway (29:23):
Well, I mean, the first thing is a minor injury is
not going to trigger a wholebunch of investigation.
If I'm a state employee and Iscrape my knee or twist my wrist
or something like that, that'snot going to trigger a whole
bunch of investigation.
If I'm a state-of-the-artemployee and I scrape my knee or
twist my wrist or somethinglike that, that's not going to
come.
It's going to come from themajor injury.
And this is not hypothetical,it's real life.
There are claims out there todaythat have this, and when
(29:44):
somebody is seriously injured,they're going to go in and
they're going to try and find adeep pocket to pay for their
lost wages, their medicalexpenses and everything else.
Most of these sole proprietorsdon't have any type of medical
insurance or anything to pay forthose medical expenses, let
alone any lost income.
So they're going to go findthat deep pocket.
How do they find the deeppocket?
(30:05):
Well, they don't have to beworking for the marina, the
marina doesn't have to hire them, uh, to get to make that marine
to the deep pocket.
Just the fact that the marinaor the boatyard has allowed them
access to the premises.
Um is facilitating the work isenough to make that trigger
start, okay, um, the next oneyou're going to look at is is
(30:26):
that vessel considered alongshore vessel?
So we're now looking at is itcharter boat?
Is it head boat?
Is it a six-pack charter?
Maybe a tow boat of somevariety?
You know recreational, thetowing recreational vessel, but
the vessel make it doing the towis a commercial vessel, mm-hmm.
So you're going through allthis set of ramifications.
(30:48):
Then you go all right.
Well, where's the vessel?
Is the vessel got any money?
Potentially?
If so, perhaps there's somerecourse against the vessel.
Or is it even in thisjurisdiction anymore?
It may have already sailed outof, out of the us waters.
So they're always looking forthe deep pocket, and this is one
of the things department oflabor, um, called the department
(31:09):
of labor for a reason they'rethere to try and help labor, so
they're going to go find thatdeep pocket.
Um, there is a case, locally andat the moment, where a
subcontractor fell on a six-packcharter boat.
Um, he had no insurance.
He'd waived his exemption toget into the yard.
That yard is now payingapproximately a $600,000 claim,
(31:33):
and that is not just the dollarsbeing paid by the insurance
company that drives up theyard's mod.
It drives up their loss history.
Their record wasn't the best inthe world before this.
Now you put a $600,000 in there, it's going to make it very
difficult for them to find anddoes that yard have coverage now
for this?
(31:53):
employee.
The yard did have longshore onan if any basis okay, and to get
it on if any basis is a veryinexpensive process.
We recommend it for any marineor boat for a number of reasons,
but but particularly to coverthat uninsured sub.
Kristina Hebert (32:11):
And also they cannot be sued.
Ian Greenway (32:13):
They cannot be sued if they've got longshore.
Kristina Hebert (32:15):
If they have longshore in place, they cannot
be personally sued Again you cango and find an attorney to sue
you first.
Ian Greenway (32:21):
Somebody can go find somebody to sue, but it's
not going to, and there's reallya couple of reasons here I mean
.
Number one is if you don't havelongshore on your workers' comp
policy, not only do you nothave the coverage, you don't
have any defense costs.
And if you've got a case whereyou're going to go, hey, that's
not my responsibility, or thatwas not a longshore vessel, it
(32:41):
should have been a state actclaim.
It can cost you six figures todefend and win.
Kristina Hebert (32:47):
Right and you could win, but it still costs
you six figures Because you canbe sued.
Ian Greenway (32:52):
We can't stop you being sued.
Kristina Hebert (32:53):
And this is in federal court.
Ian Greenway (32:54):
This is in federal court, which makes it very
expensive.
Also, it can be a jury trial,if you ever get that far and
consequently, if you're in thatenvironment, then you're sort of
rolling the dice a little bit,because you do get occasional
rogue verdicts, sometimes from ajudge.
More commonly, when there's ajury, they see somebody injured.
(33:15):
He's got three kids at home,they're suffering because they
don't have any income.
They're looking for somebody toget paid, unfortunately and you
get those rogue verdicts.
You could have a real exposureA marina person who's actually
repairing, replacing slips.
Docks are considered longshore.
(33:36):
You've got the defense costsand you've got that
subcontractor on inshoresubcontractor and that road
verdict.
All those reasons for a minimumpremium.
I think it's $200, $250 for ayard to add longshore.
On an if-any basis.
It gives you an unlimiteddefense cost policy, if nothing
(33:56):
else.
Kristina Hebert (33:57):
And I think that that's what and what about
for small businesses, becauseI'm always letting people know
that maybe there's anopportunity in a yard.
First off, how do you knowyou're never going to do any
commercial work?
You say that you always dorecreational work, but maybe you
do work on, maybe you work on adinner cruise, maybe you work
on a towboat, maybe you work ona government, a military vessel
(34:19):
and and you should have that, ifany coverage but also if you're
in a facility, what happens?
If I am a sole proprietor, I amin the safest contracting job,
that is whatever that is.
But I go into a yard that hasboth commercial and recreational
.
Technically I should have tohave longshore to go into a yard
(34:42):
that accommodates both.
Ian Greenway (34:44):
You should.
I mean, if you're not workingon the commercial vessel, then
it's unlikely you'll eversucceed to get that claim.
But that again doesn't stopsomebody suing you.
It doesn't stop you goingforward and it pays for the
defense costs.
Absolutely, and I think that'sthe critical part of it.
But the basis of the LongshoreAct and, for that matter, any
(35:07):
workers' compact is you getinjured, somebody's going to pay
you for your lost wages,somebody's going to pay you for
your medical expenses and forthat reason alone, particularly
if you're in the slightly morehazardous class, yes, you can't
be liable for yourself, youcan't sue yourself effectively.
But you can if you're acorporation, because the
(35:28):
individual and the corporationare two separately legal
entities so they can cross-suein that case.
Kristina Hebert (35:33):
Have you noticed an increase?
I know that in people thatobviously attend your coursework
et cetera are highly moreeducated than a lot of others,
but have you noticed that theagents and the insurance
industry is keeping up?
I know that at some point wewere struggling.
Some do, and some don't.
Ian Greenway (35:50):
Yeah, I mean there's.
There's no question.
There are better agents thatunderstand this and understand
the best ways to advise people.
Then there's agents that don't.
We actually converted ourseminars now into a professional
designation program.
Okay, the four-hour seminarthat you probably thought was
far too long when you first satthrough it 20 years ago is now a
(36:12):
two-day, 16-hour seminar.
Kristina Hebert (36:14):
Really, maybe I need to like up my game here.
Ian Greenway (36:18):
And even then I was wondering you know, how are
we going to get 16 hours ofmaterial when you actually get
through it?
We're even still top level ofdetail on that and the average
agent doesn't need to get rightinto the weeds of how does a
claim get adjusted and stufflike that.
But there's still a lot goingon in the industry.
There are one of theinteresting parts we have,
(36:43):
particularly down here in thesoutheast, is that a lot of
agents have one or two marineaccounts.
Okay.
Is that?
A lot of agents have one or twomarine accounts Okay?
If you go to the West Coast orthe Northeast, you find a few
agents have 99% of the marineaccounts Okay.
So they tend to be slightlybetter, more specialized in
marine business and a better setof knowledge.
(37:04):
Because we've got so many smallagencies and so many small
businesses in this neck of thewoods that knowledge is a little
spread.
Kristina Hebert (37:13):
Let's just put it nicely so how do consumers
find more knowledge?
Can they go to your website?
Can they go, for example, likethis book that I'm holding up,
that I got from one of theseminars.
It really I mean it goesthrough the act, it goes through
the exposures, it givesindustry examples, employment,
(37:34):
like where do people go to getthe right information?
If I call my agent.
I have a wonderful agent, youdo, I do Jill, jill Levy Risk
Strategies.
If I to call Jill whatever shetells me, I'm going to be like
okay, because my agent told meand I feel like a lot of people
have that trust and thatrelationship with their agents
but maybe they're not gettingthe right information.
I feel like anybody that'stelling somebody in the marine
(37:57):
industry to go to these yardswithout longshore is making a
huge mistake.
They're opening up themselvesthe yard, is exposing themselves
to, to, to liability, allowingthese companies in, and it's not
really that expensive anymore.
What could a policy be for?
I'm not holding you to it, butI am kind of just ballpark.
(38:19):
Back in the day, there used tobe these minimum policies
$10,000, $20,000.
We don't see that anymore,right.
Ian Greenway (38:26):
There are some exceptions to that.
I mean the real, what they callvoluntary market policies.
Most people are around $5,000up now.
There's the involuntary market.
Kristina Hebert (38:35):
And the $5,000 is in premium or in payroll.
Ian Greenway (38:38):
Premium, Premium.
Okay, In the involuntary marketyou can go down, I think, to
$1,500 today.
Kristina Hebert (38:44):
Okay.
Ian Greenway (38:45):
In Florida's case it's the Florida World Comp, jua
.
Every state has a similaroperation from that point of
view.
But I think there's a couple ofthings you do.
I mean, I think, when you'retalking to your agent first, one
of the questions is how much ofyour business is marine?
Yep, If the answer is, well, wedo this, this and this, or the
agent's not, it probably tellsyou they're not going to give
(39:10):
you the right advice.
Most agents across the countryare general agents.
They do all types of business.
They'll do restaurants andhotels and everything.
Kristina Hebert (39:17):
Sure.
Ian Greenway (39:17):
And some marine.
Some are highly specialized.
I mentioned the professionaldesignation program we run today
.
It's called IMIS, sorry, calledCMIP is the designation.
It's run by the organization.
It's called IMIS CMIP CertifiedMarine Insurance Professional.
If the agent has got that,those four letters behind their
(39:39):
name, and you might find it CIC,cmip and maybe a couple of
others, then you've got somebodyat least has gone through the
training.
Kristina Hebert (39:47):
Is there a listing of all of this Do?
You have this on your website?
Do you have this on yourwebsite?
We?
Ian Greenway (39:50):
can link it to the website.
The actual sponsoringorganization is called I-M-I-S,
i-i-m-i-scom, or org for thatmatter, and on there every agent
who's gone through the.
There's four parts to thiscourse.
Each is 16 hours.
So they've gone through 64hours of training.
They passed a test on eachsection.
(40:11):
Good, so you know it's anonline test.
You know it's not rocketscience, but it's still a test
on the knowledge and they'veobtained and they maintain that
professional destination.
They have to come back everytwo years for one more seminar.
So, again, if you're lookingeither for an agent, go to
iimisorgcom and on there itshows a list of the graduates.
(40:35):
Okay, good, you can pick bystate and then it'll explain.
Some of them are underwritersin there.
The vast majority are agents.
There's a few MGAs like us inthere, but look for an agent on
there.
But again, look, do you havethat CMIP designation?
That's going to certainly tellyou the person.
They may not be a specialist inmarine but they've gone through
(40:58):
the training Sure.
Kristina Hebert (40:59):
Well, at least you know that they're going to
advise you properly and they'refamiliar with your industry.
Ian Greenway (41:01):
Every day, we see businesses that have been around
10, 15 years coming in throughan agent to our office saying we
need longshore insurance.
Okay, but you haven't had anyin the past.
Well, we didn't know.
Our agent told us that wedidn't need it and it's such a
common issue today and,unfortunately, some of it comes
(41:22):
in after the claims happen andyou can't retroactively place
this Plus I never really want tohave somebody you say, oh no,
sorry, you can't do thatcommercial job because you don't
have longshore.
Kristina Hebert (41:35):
Exactly.
Why would you want to turnbusiness away?
Yeah?
Ian Greenway (41:39):
Maybe you need to charge a little more for it
because the rate's a littlehigher, but at least you have
that available.
Kristina Hebert (41:43):
Well, that was going to be another question I
had.
So what can companies do ifthey're not sure?
So one, they can go to thisI-M-I-S, i-m-i-s.
Ian Greenway (41:53):
I-M-I-S.
Yeah, international Insurance,international Institute for
Marine Insurance Studies.
Kristina Hebert (41:58):
Okay, i-m-i-s either org or com and they can
get that.
But also as a company, what canthey do?
I know, for example, I have todo like a self audit every year,
so I have to make sure that Ikeep my payroll classifications.
(42:19):
I make sure that I have all ofmy employees separated by their
category.
So I have technicians, I havepeople in a retail store, I have
admin staff, et cetera.
So I keep that.
So do you recommend people?
Keep their employees, keeptheir payroll separate,
understand, limit maybe whocould be in a longshore
situation, so that they canunderstand.
Ian Greenway (42:40):
How does the if-any coverage work?
So the audit process is suchthat where the employer has to
provide data to an auditor afterthe expiry of the policy, part
of that has to be what they callcontemporary records of payroll
.
If you want to play a payrollsplit, let's say one of your
technicians earns $100.
(43:01):
If you just put that $100 inthere and say, well, part of his
work was longshore and part wasstate act, the auditor is
forced to put all of it inlongshore.
Okay.
But if you can track it and say, well, on Tuesday, from nine
o'clock till three o'clock hewas on a longshore job, and from
three o'clock to five o'clockhe was on a state act job.
On Wednesday, he was on a stateact job.
(43:22):
If you've got that trackingyou're allowed to payroll split.
Yep, yep.
But you have to have thatcontemporary record.
The author may not always askfor it, but it has to be there
to prove it, should you everneed it.
Then at the year end you gookay, well, I added up Joe's
total payroll.
He's made $50,000, $20,000 ofthat was on longshore work,
(43:44):
$30,000 with that on state act.
You get to split that price andthat keeps the price under
control at audit.
Remember, with all the premiumsyou pay up front, there are
only estimates.
There are estimates based onwhat you think your payroll
might be and it's actuallyaudited on the back end.
So if your estimate says, oh, Ithink I'm going to do $100,000
(44:06):
of longshore work and youactually end up only doing $20,
doing 20, you get that $80,000worth back.
Kristina Hebert (44:19):
And you do.
By the way, I've done theaudits, I've done it and I do
believe that the more effort youput into organizing your
payroll organizing, evenlimiting you know clearly.
For example, in my company Ihave a lot of administrative, I
have a lot of retail people.
None of those people are goingto be in a yard.
It's very limited to the two orthree technicians that I have
that are going to be at thelevel or going to be the ones
(44:40):
that I'm sending to thecommercial work.
And you absolutely know that inyour own business and you
monitor the way that you taketheir payroll in and out and
most payroll systems will allowyou to put a code in Correct.
Ian Greenway (44:53):
I think you're 3684, if I can remember
correctly.
Kristina Hebert (44:56):
Whatever the code is 5190 is my electrician's
.
Yes, I just did my audit, notthat long, chrissy knows better.
Ian Greenway (45:02):
But if you put a code into your payroll system
5190, and then a second code,5190f, which F designates
federal, I never understood whyit wasn't a L but F.
Kristina Hebert (45:14):
I thought of other things True.
Ian Greenway (45:18):
But if you designate that in your payroll
system then it makes it so mucheasier to track and to summarize
those payroll hours and yourtechnician might be doing some
work here in the shop.
They're basically back intostate act again, even if that
work is ultimately going on to acommercial vessel.
Kristina Hebert (45:38):
So I pull up another chair, I sit down the
President Trump and we say, hey,we really want to get this
right and he's got a pencil.
Is there anything else youwould change in the act, or what
would you change or could wechange?
Ian Greenway (45:56):
Well, there's an interesting question, I know.
Kristina Hebert (45:59):
And you know what?
I didn't think of it that longago and I didn't prep you with
it, so there's no wrong answer,I think.
Ian Greenway (46:03):
I'd really just want to throw the rule book out.
I mean, that was the thing thatmade it so the Department of
Labor rule implementation.
Kristina Hebert (46:11):
Just kind of scratch that out, stick with
what the original language wasand move on, let's rewind to
2011.
Let's do it.
I'm going to email Trump today,this afternoon.
Ian Greenway (46:20):
Okay.
Kristina Hebert (46:21):
Okay.
Ian Greenway (46:22):
Let's see if we can you know again to me it's
not trying to sell insurancepolicy.
I don't think is the criticalpart.
It's trying to say that personcan go home, if injured, with
benefits with somebody to paythe medical expenses.
Because I think somebody toldme recently medical failed to
(46:43):
pay medical expenses is thenumber one reason for bankruptcy
today, for personal bankruptcytoday.
Yeah, and you get a seriousinjury, you go into hospital, I
have no doubt.
You're right, it's six figuresbefore you settle up.
Settle up, I mean, thesenumbers are just getting
astronomic now and that becomesan instant burden on your family
(47:03):
.
Kristina Hebert (47:03):
Yes, and as an employer, you need to take care
of your employees and employeesneed to be covered and you need
to take care of them.
But even as an owner-operator,yeah you need to take care of
yourself.
Ian Greenway (47:14):
Yes, and your family, yeah.
I mean, one of the biglongshore companies has a banner
outside of most of theirinsurers that says arrive home
alive.
Yeah, and fortunately we don'tget that many death claims in
the rec industry.
You do more in the commercial,but arrive home in one piece,
(47:34):
right Doesn't rhyme quite aswell.
No, but I think it's a veryimportant.
You know, either arrive home inone piece or have the resources
to get yourself back.
The people that elect not tobuy workers' comp are not
providing they and theirfamilies the remedy should they
(47:54):
get injured.
So that's why it triggers on togo and find somebody to pay for
the industry.
Yes, for the injuries.
Kristina Hebert (48:01):
So we need employers to cover their
employees, we need the yards andmarinas.
What do you think they shoulddo?
Ian Greenway (48:07):
They've got to police this.
I mean they've got to police it.
Kristina Hebert (48:10):
Don't accept state comp exemptions, unless
you want to own them onlongshore.
Ian Greenway (48:14):
Yeah, and remember , if that accident happens
you're going to get sued and youmay have defense costs, but at
the end of the day, that claimis going to sit on your loss
record for five years.
It's going to drive up yourexperience, mod.
It's going to cost you moremoney, absolutely Than buying
the insurance.
Kristina Hebert (48:32):
Than buying the insurance, having it or
policing it.
Well, you heard it here today.
Thank you for being here, ian.
I look forward to it.
I'll call Trump, we'll try toget the Department of Labor's
definition erased and we'll gofrom there.
Ian Greenway (48:46):
But it's been an amazing journey and I look
forward to the next, the nextstep, the next adventure you're
gonna cure tariffs at the sametime that's it too so yeah sure,
we'll take care of that, okay,thank you.
Thank you for invitingabsolutely.
Kristina Hebert (49:01):
Thank you for joining us this season on season
three of the wardsway podcast.
Be sure you subscribe becausethere's much more to come.
Welcome to the Season 3 Wards Way podcast,
where we're covering the hotlegislative topics of 2025.
From tariffs to tunnels andbridges, from foreign trade
zones to workers' compensation,to the Fort Lauderdale
International Boat Show, to theMarine Research Hub, industry
(00:22):
experts and clarification on theB-11, b2 visas.
Join us as we celebrate 75years in business and we're just
getting started.
So welcome everybody to seasonthree of the Wardsway Podcast.
I'm here with my very dearfriend, ian Greenway, who's
president of CEO of LIG MarineManagers.
(00:42):
I got it wrong CEO.
Okay, now I can talk about this.
Your son is the president.
Ian Greenway (00:47):
My son is the president.
Kristina Hebert (00:48):
Okay, so see we like multi-generational
businesses, so congratulationson that, Thank you.
And you guys have been inbusiness 30?
, 36 years, now 36 years.
Ian Greenway (00:56):
Congratulations to that, not quite as long as
awards no.
Kristina Hebert (01:05):
We're trying to catch up.
That's right.
That's right.
Ian Greenway (01:06):
Well, you and I have worked together, though for
going on quite some time.
Kristina Hebert (01:08):
Yes, yes, we will just leave it at that, but
I have a book here that I got,so so how do you want to tell
the story of how we first met,or should I tell the story?
Because I'll tell the story.
So I have this book foreverybody to see and it's from
June of 2000.
So when I first started atWards in 1996, I was going to be
(01:29):
a law student and become alawyer and my dad said to me
there's enough lawyers in theworld.
And he said but if you reallywant to get involved in
something legislatively, I havesomething for you and it's just
not right.
I think we pay way too much onthis workers comp thing that
I've been telling you about andthis is how he phrased it and I
(01:51):
think you should look into itand see if there's something you
know, you want to.
You want to be into politicsand legislative.
See what there's something youcan do.
So I called my insurance agentsat the time and I said how do I
find out more about thisLongshore and Harbor Workers
Compensation Act that we'repaying all this extra federal
(02:11):
workers count for?
And they said oh, you have togo to a seminar.
Come with us to see IanGreenway.
He's doing a what do you callit with your continuing
education credits?
Ian Greenway (02:21):
That's right.
Kristina Hebert (02:22):
And so you were doing a seminar, and so I went
to your first seminar and waitedfor you, where you went through
who's a?
A longshoreman and I rememberyou wore all these hats that you
know is a painter, alongshoreman is a.
What were some of theconstruction?
What were some of your hats.
Ian Greenway (02:40):
Yeah, chef, chef, that's right.
Kristina Hebert (02:43):
And then obviously the cap captain,
deckhand, correct and none ofthem were longshoremen, um well
it was anybody circumstance.
So okay, so maybe I need to takethe course again.
And um, and then I went to itand I remember raising my hand
and saying, well, why is itlimited?
Because at the it applied torecreational vessels over 65
(03:05):
feet.
And I remember raising my handand saying, why is it at 65 feet
?
And you said good question, butit is what it is.
And I said, well, do you thinkwe can change it?
And you said probably notduring this course, but I'll
talk to you after.
And probably like, why is this?
And then I think I went to twoor three more of them and
finally you were like, do youreally want to talk about
something or what?
And so then we started talkingabout how could we change it,
(03:31):
and my recollection was that wewanted to get rid of the footage
, not just increase the footage.
And what was your thought onthat?
Ian Greenway (03:39):
I mean, it made sense.
I mean back when the act wasput into force.
The 65-foot was really derivedaround how vessels were
constructed, and beyond 65-footthey were being built more like
a ship than they were a yacht.
Right Then, as constructiontechniques changed, that sort of
went away.
(04:00):
You know, you can build a200-foot vessel today, pretty
much the same as you build a20-foot vessel.
I'm not going to pop outhundreds of them, but that was
really the background of the65-foot.
But the real driving force Ithink back then was we had a
surcharge set by the NCCI forthe state of Florida of 2.65
(04:21):
times the rate.
So if you had a workers' comprate of $10 back, then, you were
paying $26.50 per 100 payroll.
Today that's less than a 50 centrise in rate, but it was just.
It was ridiculously expensiveand the losses weren't justified
.
Kristina Hebert (04:38):
And also without getting too technical.
So what I learned in thatprocess was too technical.
So what I learned in thatprocess was, first off, we
probably shouldn't be includedin it.
We felt, my family and I, thatwell geez in 1984, if they were
trying to get rid of therecreational industry which at
the time my understanding wasthere really wasn't a boat built
(04:59):
in the US bigger than that 65feet, which I think could be a
myth.
I'm not sure.
Ian Greenway (05:05):
I think it was definitely mostly.
Kristina Hebert (05:07):
But it was intended to capture the industry
and exclude it, and so, overtime, it was just that that
footage had gotten, had becomesomewhat irrelevant into the
size of the way the industry wasgrowing, but also, like you
said, it really was a hugeoperating expense for us and
unknown.
So we had this surcharge and alot of that has to do with.
(05:31):
Well, before we get into that,I'd like to talk about you and
your company and how long you'vebeen doing this and what made
you talk to that strange girlgoing to your continuing
education credits and course,and give me some of your
background so that the listenersand the audience understand why
you're the expert.
Ian Greenway (05:49):
Well, mostly because I'm curious, I think is
the simple answer to thatquestion.
I started LIG now 36 years agoand we were writing a lot of
different marine insurance.
We were described as an MGA ora wholesaler.
We don't deal directly with thepublic.
We deal with the agents whohave a specific need for marine
(06:10):
insurance and, quite frankly,somebody came to me very early
on in the LIG days and said canyou write Longshore?
My answer to that question waswhat's Longshore?
Kristina Hebert (06:22):
I'd never heard really.
Oh yeah, oh wow never really.
Ian Greenway (06:25):
I mean, I'd heard of it in passing but I really
didn't know, uh, how it workedor what it what it did, um, and
obviously the first passes ofthat were the very heavy
commercial operations, thecontainer ports, the shipyards
and things like that.
But the more I studied it, andin fact the more I taught it to
people, uh, the more Iunderstand how it affected
(06:46):
industries, particularly therecreational marine industry,
where it just was never intendedto do that.
Correct, it was really intendedto deal with the commercial.
They set up some exclusionarylanguage in there but it wasn't
horribly clear exactly who wasexcluded and who wasn't.
And then, as you said, the65-foot limitation was there.
(07:06):
But I've always been a verycurious person.
When I want to find out aboutsomething, I want to go
wholeheartedly in it and thenstarting to teach it, as you
were one of the I want to say,the first attendees at the
seminars, but fairly early on.
Kristina Hebert (07:20):
Yeah.
Ian Greenway (07:21):
You are put in a position where you have to learn
more about it.
Absolutely, you can't stand upin front of people and say, you
know, I don't know what this is,but here's a here's long shore
you goodbye well and we act likethis has been part of our
original constitution since 17,so you know 76, and it hasn't.
Kristina Hebert (07:37):
I mean it came about in the 1926 but then it,
and then it was largelyuntouched for decades.
And then it came about andthere was an amendment in the
70s.
Ian Greenway (07:50):
Early 70s, and then another one in the early
80s.
Kristina Hebert (07:52):
In the early 80s, and I think it was just as
the maritime industry startedgrowing and morphing and having
a true recreational industry.
I mean clearly in 1926, whilethere were luxury yachts at the
time, I don't think we werelooking at them at the same
level as an industry.
I mean clearly in 1926, weweren't.
While there were luxury yachtsat the time, I don't think we
were looking at them at the samelevel as an industry.
And so the Longshore Act reallywas created.
What I also learned through youwas, as a gap-filling measure,
(08:16):
so we had the Jones Act.
That's been around since the1800s and that covers 1926.
19, same thing.
Ian Greenway (08:23):
Yeah, pretty close .
Okay, six years difference.
Kristina Hebert (08:24):
All right.
So, boy, you got to fact checkme.
Come on so 1920s.
So we were dealing with theJones Act, and then we have
state workers' compensation soland-based.
And when were all of those?
Ian Greenway (08:38):
First state workers' compensation just
around the turn of the 1900s,okay, and New York was certainly
the first state.
Kristina Hebert (08:44):
I think was 1898 or thereabouts okay, so
we're actually coming up on the100th anniversary of the
longshore act very apropos nextyear.
Next year, wow okay, we'll haveto have some sort of and it
flipped um.
Ian Greenway (08:57):
it was mostly to give a common element of
coverage to anybody in whateverstate they felt that maritime
work, whether it's the Jones Act, the crew side or the longshore
side, the land-based workerswere going to get the same set
of benefits, regardless if theywere in New York, new Jersey,
florida, california, anywhere inthe country.
It followed along from theRailroad Act, which were a
(09:27):
little earlier I think they wereabout 1914, 1912, somewhere in
that range and again, that wasto give a uniform set of
benefits and that was the thebasis, um, but when it was
started it was a named act.
In other words, you werecovered if you were in one of
the named professions okay,loading, unloading a vessel if
you were working in a porthandling lines, handling cargo,
repairing a ship those were thename ones.
(09:49):
And it flipped in those 70s and80s changes into be you're
covered unless you're excluded.
That was the big change in thehistory.
Kristina Hebert (09:57):
And why do you think I mean this one definitely
?
We haven't ever really talkedabout.
Why do you think there was apush for the exclusion just
because it wasn't what it wasintended to do?
Ian Greenway (10:06):
Yeah, I think it was really a development.
I mean, commercial dock workersin the early 20th century were
very different to thelongshoremen of today.
You know, they could be pushingbuttons and things like that.
I think it's really how theindustry developed.
There was definitely a bigseparation between the
commercial work and therecreational work, definitely a
big separation between thecommercial work and the
(10:27):
recreational work back in the1920s, 1930s and those lines
kept blurring and blurring.
So they really flipped it tobring in a whole set of workers
again, which I don't think itwas ever really intended to do.
But all the repair and servicepeople on the rec market got
dragged in almost by mistake.
Kristina Hebert (10:45):
So I know that in looking at it, one of my
arguments to you was if theyattempted to.
When I say they, if the federalgovernment attempted to capture
the industry and exclude it,can we get them to go bigger on
the footage?
But it was also one of yourcomments originally to me on the
(11:05):
footage.
But it was also one of yourcomments originally to me.
And our original goal was notnecessarily to change the
federal act.
It was let's talk to NCCINational Council on Compensation
Insurance that establishes therates for workers' comp, because
the government says we have tohave it, but it doesn't have to
say that it has to be asurcharge.
So explain that surcharge.
How did we end up there?
Ian Greenway (11:28):
Just really to try and control the costs.
I mean, if it was, long-shorebenefits will always be more
than state benefits.
The long-shore benefits ofcourse are federal, so you're
supposed to get pretty much thesame wherever you are in the
country.
But different states havedifferent levels of benefits.
If you go up to Connecticut,for example, it's a very closely
(11:50):
matched to the longshore, sothere's not a lot of surcharge
there.
But the perception of thebenefit levels here in Florida
versus the longshore levels wasat that 256 mark back when we
started around 2000.
And really the losses justdidn't support that.
It was way overcharged and Ibelieve that that was wrong and
(12:15):
it made people not buy becauseit was so expensive.
To make it affordable and toget it into a point where the
losses and premiums were roughlyin balance, you could bring
that surcharge down.
We were successful for themarine contractors to actually
get a specific code for marinecontractors.
(12:37):
Today they were paying $50 to$60 back in 2000s.
Now they're paying, I think,the latest rate somewhere in the
10 dollar range so let's talkabout that.
Kristina Hebert (12:48):
So what I wanted to get to was that part
of the reason that therecreational industry so ncci
comes up with this wholeclassification codes a giant
book that has every industry anda code, and then there are um
actuarials that go in and saythis is what the inherent risk
of this type of work.
(13:08):
It's given a rating, so tospeak, and that's how risky you
are and therefore that's whatyour premium is per $100 of
payroll.
Right Is that?
But the recreational marineindustry didn't have an
established class code, so itwas just in a surcharge code.
Ian Greenway (13:27):
Yeah, it's interesting you know you had the
.
I mean Marina has always hadestablished state act rate and
longshore rate and here inFlorida they typically been
somewhere in the 10% to 20%difference in pricing.
You know, if the Marina baserate was 11, you might be
charged 12 or 13 for thelongshore portion.
Right Reasonable somethingpredictable it is and something
(13:51):
easily to track and to measure.
The problem is the singlediscipline contractor doesn't
fall into that.
So somebody that's, let's say,a fiberglass.
How about electricians?
Electrician, that's right.
Good example.
I wonder where that came from.
Yeah, I don't know.
You know an electrician, youget classified as an electrician
and there is no marineelectrician, that's right.
(14:12):
So you were suffering, yourgroup of companies were
suffering from that 2.56, sorry,2.65 surcharge.
So your base rate that might'vebeen $10 would have been $26.50
.
That's outrageously expensiveand not warranted.
And not warranted because itwas never based on claims.
All those other rates werebased on.
(14:35):
How much premium did we collect?
How much payroll was there andhow many claims?
How much in dollar terms werethe claims?
That's how the actuaries workedit.
But when they created thesurcharge, or when they create
the surcharge even today, theylook at the benefit levels that
are written in the law.
They look at the benefit levelsthat are written in the
(14:55):
Longshore Act and make acomparison of the two.
So, it's a very hypotheticalnumber.
It was never really supportedby strong natural aerial data.
Boat building had the same.
Recreational boat building hadthe same thing.
They had a longshore rate inthere it was again typically 10,
15, 20% more than the base rate.
(15:16):
So again affordable, relativelyeasy to get and based on facts
of claims.
Kristina Hebert (15:23):
So I guess where I wanted people to
understand is this was amulti-pronged approach, so one
we were talking about.
Let's figure out what it lookslike to change the act.
So we have that going.
Let's make the footagesomething that makes sense, and
at the time it was in the early2000s.
At the same time it was well,let's talk to NCCI about this
(15:44):
surcharge and find out what isit based on.
We were able to do some of ourown actuarial data through some
of these classification codes tosee what were the claims did
not offset the premiums thatwere being generated, and also
(16:05):
we found that the number ofclaims went down the more
specialized the field.
So talk about that.
Ian Greenway (16:13):
I mean, the ideal way of doing it would be to have
a marine electrician's classcode, a longshore class code
that goes with that, just likethe builders and the marinas.
But there's not that many inyour profession, correct?
So it didn't give them enoughactuarial base.
I can't say I agree with allthe NCCI arguments.
(16:34):
I thought there should be arecreational marine repair class
code.
Kristina Hebert (16:38):
Correct.
And we talked about that, wedid and we pursued that.
Ian Greenway (16:41):
Yeah, but again you'd have to take.
You know you've got some highhazard type of jobs in there.
Obviously engine repair is alittle bit more high hazard than
fiberglass repair or things.
Sure, you know some base levelones Rigging, for example would
be a tough one.
So trying to group thosedifferent industries together
(17:01):
would have been tough, and I getit.
Kristina Hebert (17:03):
And sometimes be careful.
What you ask for right, youknow, because maybe they'll come
out with a rate that's firm,fixed, but it's not really at a
number that you wanted.
Ian Greenway (17:11):
Yeah, and you know , the people who were in low
rate classification would havebeen pushed up a little bit to
get into that combined one andmaybe the high would gain a
little bit.
But I think the real work thatpaid off on the rating side was
gradually chipping away at thatsurcharge.
Kristina Hebert (17:29):
Yes.
Ian Greenway (17:30):
I think it's in the high 40% now.
So again, not cheap, but it'scertainly much better than the
265 we had.
Kristina Hebert (17:39):
Well, and I do think you know, ultimately the
goal.
Ironically, while it soundslike it's cut, remove, exclude,
all these terms that we're using, what was happening is our
industry was largely that the$26 to $30 per $100 of payroll.
But it's at a disadvantage forus with our competitor that
(18:13):
maybe isn't paying at all.
But then, number two, you haveemployees going without coverage
, so they're taking theexemption.
So if you're with a company, ifyou have a business of five
employees or less, threeemployees or less, you can claim
the state comp exemption.
And then people were sayingwell, I don't need the longshore
(18:34):
, you have to have the statecomp in order to get the
longshore, but I'm excluded fromstate comp, so I don't really
need the longshore.
So how can the government forceme to do it and how do I get in
?
And it was causing just a lotof confusion.
Ian Greenway (18:50):
But at the end of the day, workers were going
without coverage and that's notwhat we wanted.
Yeah, and I think it'simportant to remember where the
law in Florida and I think itwas sent a mixed message say if
you don't have more than threeemployees, you're not forced to
buy workers comp insurance.
Okay, other than in theconstruction field true
construction, sure, residentialcommercial, it's one employee,
(19:12):
but that doesn't take away theliability.
So if your employee is injuredwith two employees and you
haven't bought workers' comp,you end up having to pay those
benefits without any insurancebehind.
I think that's a terribly badmixed message.
Yes, you can quote exempt fromit, but it doesn't take away
that liability.
Kristina Hebert (19:27):
And also as a business.
If you're not providing that toyour employees, you can be sued
.
Ian Greenway (19:32):
Absolutely.
You pay state or long-shorebenefits, and then you have
potential for liability on topof it.
Kristina Hebert (19:38):
Right, whereas if you have those policies in
place, you cannot be sued forthat.
Ian Greenway (19:43):
Correct, they're called sole remedy policies.
So if you have workers' compand if you have the longshore
exposure, you have longshorecoverage enforced the suit.
You can't stop somebody suingyou.
But it's an instant dismissal,it's just go away, it's sole
remedy.
There's no tool, gotcha.
Kristina Hebert (20:00):
So we're going to get to where we are today and
kind of go through like alittle.
Is this myth versus fact?
Tell me the truth.
But before we get to that, wewere successful in modifying the
act which is critical in thesense that it is the foundation
of really the labor unions inthis country correct the
(20:22):
Longshore and Harbor WorkersCompensation Act, and we were
able to modify the exclusionsfor recreational vessels, not
from a build perspective butfrom a repair and dismantle.
So let's talk about that.
What were we able to get?
Ian Greenway (20:40):
Well, simplistically, we managed to
get the and you led the effort,so you probably know this even
better than I do we managed toget the 65-foot rule removed for
repair of recreational vessels.
Okay, um, we thought as we'regoing through the process the 65
foot was going to disappear.
Um, completely, somewhere atthe last minute the
(21:01):
manufacturers decided theydidn't want to have that change.
So still, the building andmanufacturing has that 65 foot
limitation in it.
That does present someinteresting problems, because
the person who's repairing anold vessel say doing HVAC work
on an old vessel fairly highhazard job, handling, duct work
(21:23):
and that type of thing, becauseit's a repair job, is
recreational.
It's a state act claim.
If they do it on a new buildit's exactly the same work,
probably a safer job becausethey're working as the hull's
being built, clean materials,things like that.
If that vessel's over 65 footit's a longshore job and that
(21:44):
seems wrong to me because thebalance is that's the same boat,
right?
Well, not just the same boat.
It's actually a more modern,easier to work on vessel.
Kristina Hebert (21:52):
No, I meant it's the same boat.
If, for example, it's beingbuilt and then later it goes to
a marina for repair, it's theexact same boat, but over here
it was a longshore vesselenvironment when it's being
constructed and yet at themarina where it's being repaired
, it's not.
Ian Greenway (22:09):
It's excluded.
It's crazy, yeah, and it's thesame boat.
If anything, it should be theother way around, because the
more high hazard is the repairwork.
Kristina Hebert (22:15):
Absolutely not.
Who invited you?
No, no, but you're right, and Ithink part of the reason that
the builders were not sointerested in changing the law
is because they had thepredictable rates.
It was a predictable cost thatwent into the operations of it,
(22:37):
and so there wasn't really aline of confusion and it wasn't
costing jobs.
Workers were having coverage.
It wasn't the same scenariowhere it was for the yards, the
marinas and the repair industrythat workers were truly going
without coverage.
Ian Greenway (22:51):
And I think you know for a builder it's a little
easier because if I'm buildingthat 70, 80-foot yacht, I've got
a gang working on that.
That's very clear, it's defined, it's a three, six, 12-month
job, correct.
Whereas repair you could beworking on a 60-foot one day and
a 70-foot the next, or evenmorning and afternoon.
So much harder to track and, aswe talked about before, the
(23:13):
builder had established rateswhere there wasn't a huge
surcharge between the state actand the longshore.
Kristina Hebert (23:20):
Right.
Ian Greenway (23:20):
Because they had that established longshore rate.
Kristina Hebert (23:23):
Well, and I have to say we did learn a lot
in going.
Do you remember how many billswe actually introduced before
this got A?
number, remember how many billswe actually introduced before
this got a number, a number andum, and in case anybody doesn't
know how um our uh governmentworks, actually every every two
years, no matter what, if thebill doesn't pass, then you have
to start all over and find anew bill sponsor and a new, and
(23:45):
so I was.
I was looking back.
When we testified beforecongress, it was during the
108th.
When we testified beforeCongress, it was during the
108th Congress and it was inJuly, and you and I had an
opportunity.
Ian Greenway (23:59):
And it was HR 1329 was our bill.
Kristina Hebert (24:00):
Well, I remember because I looked it up
and I was trying to find.
I was trying to find the video.
That would have been good.
We could be segwaying into 20year old video of each of us,
you know, back then, but Icouldn't find it.
But I did find it sointeresting that after we did
all of these testimonies, we didthese hearings, we spent time
(24:22):
with NCCI, we talked to themabout the claims versus the
premiums, we talked about theseexemptions and how they should
be across the board and therecreation industry has
different inherent and in theend, I believe it was on about
page 832 of the AmericanRestoration and Recovery Act the
(24:44):
Obama Act of 2009, and it wasin a very strict parliamentary
sentence and I've never been sothrilled to see that happen.
Ian Greenway (24:56):
It was 10 years from the day we basically
started the process.
It was 10 years.
Kristina Hebert (24:59):
Yeah, and that took 10 years and sadly that was
16 years ago.
Ian Greenway (25:08):
You can fudge the math a little.
Kristina Hebert (25:09):
I know, yeah, we can fudge that, it was just
not long ago.
We'll say that.
So fast forward.
How did it all work out?
And I will say today where weare.
I believe one that we weresuccessful in I don't know if we
had a hand in maybe modifyingthose rates.
I mean, what made all the rateskind of come down and become?
(25:31):
Where are we today?
Ian Greenway (25:33):
Well, let's just say, I think you know, when 2009
rolled around and it was inerror, we were celebrating.
Yeah, it really was a big winto make that modification, which
was the last one for 26 yearsbefore that Correct.
So the problem then became whenthey In 2012.
2012, when they published theregulations to interpret that
(25:57):
act and they did it I think itwas on Christmas Eve or New
Year's Eve, it was just rightover the holidays, it was.
They thought that somebodywould pay attention and it just
made everything so much morecomplicated.
If we just stayed where we werein 2009, I think we wouldn't be
having this conversation today.
Kristina Hebert (26:14):
So from a civics perspective.
So we were able to successfullymodify the act.
There was a bill in Congress,multiple bills, we went through
multiple hearings but in the endthere was a strict
parliamentarian language insertinto a huge omnibus bill that
was able to change the act in2009, but then fast forward in
(26:36):
2012.
The department of labor thatimplements the laws that
congress passes as it relatesspecifically to the longshore
act it falls under thedepartment of labor agency, I
guess did a rule implementationand decided to modify the
definition of recreationalvessel, and I absolutely 100% my
podcast so I could say it.
(26:57):
I believe it was 100% done as apunitive.
It was they didn't like it.
Nobody wanted this bill to bechanged.
It was, if I heard any more ofthose, the the camel's nose
under the tent, the slipperyslope that somehow this was,
that we were actually the truethe um, the people that were
(27:20):
going to be single-handedlyresponsible for taking all of
these people out of the federalworkers comp system, and that
really was not at all what wewere trying to do.
We were trying to stick to ourlittle recreational marine
industry.
So so the Department of Laborcame along and redefined what a
recreational vessel was, andwhat has that done At that?
Ian Greenway (27:35):
point.
Nobody really had that question.
Kristina Hebert (27:39):
Nobody ever asked me to define a
recreational vessel, it hadalways been primarily used for
pleasure.
Ian Greenway (27:45):
Yeah, if we look at it you could tell it was a
recreational vessel, yep.
Then all these regulations camein and it was just.
It was so complicated.
I mean I built like a matrix totry and understand all those to
put into a set of definitionand there's some really oddball
sort of nuances in here.
You know, bare boat chartersover 12 passengers are
(28:06):
considered longshore, but ifit's 11 passengers it's not.
Kristina Hebert (28:09):
And again, you know that's just crazy that that
has never had anything to dowith no right.
Ian Greenway (28:13):
And then inspected vessel versus uninspected
vessel yeah, just, they're justsome crazy things and that's
really where um created so muchconfusion and and you can sit
and go into any marina here.
Look at a sport fish and one ofits used as a six-pack charter
and it's considered commercialunder these new 2012 regulations
(28:35):
.
And the next vessel, which is apersonal vessel looking
identical, is a state act vessel.
It's a non-longshore vessel andit's just a crazy set of
definitions that would derivepredominantly from that
rulemaking.
Kristina Hebert (28:51):
That would derive predominantly from that
rulemaking.
I agree, and what I try toremind people too is that
longshore and workers' compcomes after the fact.
So somebody gets hurt, thenthey try to decide who's going
to be responsible.
So walk me through that.
So right now I'm in a yard, Iam an employee I'll give you
various scenarios.
(29:11):
So I'm a sole proprietor andI'm in a yard and I have
provided my state comp exemption, but I fall and get hurt in a
yard.
What happens?
Ian Greenway (29:23):
Well, I mean, the first thing is a minor injury is
not going to trigger a wholebunch of investigation.
If I'm a state employee and Iscrape my knee or twist my wrist
or something like that, that'snot going to trigger a whole
bunch of investigation.
If I'm a state-of-the-artemployee and I scrape my knee or
twist my wrist or somethinglike that, that's not going to
come.
It's going to come from themajor injury.
And this is not hypothetical,it's real life.
There are claims out there todaythat have this, and when
(29:44):
somebody is seriously injured,they're going to go in and
they're going to try and find adeep pocket to pay for their
lost wages, their medicalexpenses and everything else.
Most of these sole proprietorsdon't have any type of medical
insurance or anything to pay forthose medical expenses, let
alone any lost income.
So they're going to go findthat deep pocket.
How do they find the deeppocket?
(30:05):
Well, they don't have to beworking for the marina, the
marina doesn't have to hire them, uh, to get to make that marine
to the deep pocket.
Just the fact that the marinaor the boatyard has allowed them
access to the premises.
Um is facilitating the work isenough to make that trigger
start, okay, um, the next oneyou're going to look at is is
(30:26):
that vessel considered alongshore vessel?
So we're now looking at is itcharter boat?
Is it head boat?
Is it a six-pack charter?
Maybe a tow boat of somevariety?
You know recreational, thetowing recreational vessel, but
the vessel make it doing the towis a commercial vessel, mm-hmm.
So you're going through allthis set of ramifications.
(30:48):
Then you go all right.
Well, where's the vessel?
Is the vessel got any money?
Potentially?
If so, perhaps there's somerecourse against the vessel.
Or is it even in thisjurisdiction anymore?
It may have already sailed outof, out of the us waters.
So they're always looking forthe deep pocket, and this is one
of the things department oflabor, um, called the department
(31:09):
of labor for a reason they'rethere to try and help labor, so
they're going to go find thatdeep pocket.
Um, there is a case, locally andat the moment, where a
subcontractor fell on a six-packcharter boat.
Um, he had no insurance.
He'd waived his exemption toget into the yard.
That yard is now payingapproximately a $600,000 claim,
(31:33):
and that is not just the dollarsbeing paid by the insurance
company that drives up theyard's mod.
It drives up their loss history.
Their record wasn't the best inthe world before this.
Now you put a $600,000 in there, it's going to make it very
difficult for them to find anddoes that yard have coverage now
for this?
(31:53):
employee.
The yard did have longshore onan if any basis okay, and to get
it on if any basis is a veryinexpensive process.
We recommend it for any marineor boat for a number of reasons,
but but particularly to coverthat uninsured sub.
Kristina Hebert (32:11):
And also they cannot be sued.
Ian Greenway (32:13):
They cannot be sued if they've got longshore.
Kristina Hebert (32:15):
If they have longshore in place, they cannot
be personally sued Again you cango and find an attorney to sue
you first.
Ian Greenway (32:21):
Somebody can go find somebody to sue, but it's
not going to, and there's reallya couple of reasons here I mean
.
Number one is if you don't havelongshore on your workers' comp
policy, not only do you nothave the coverage, you don't
have any defense costs.
And if you've got a case whereyou're going to go, hey, that's
not my responsibility, or thatwas not a longshore vessel, it
(32:41):
should have been a state actclaim.
It can cost you six figures todefend and win.
Kristina Hebert (32:47):
Right and you could win, but it still costs
you six figures Because you canbe sued.
Ian Greenway (32:52):
We can't stop you being sued.
Kristina Hebert (32:53):
And this is in federal court.
Ian Greenway (32:54):
This is in federal court, which makes it very
expensive.
Also, it can be a jury trial,if you ever get that far and
consequently, if you're in thatenvironment, then you're sort of
rolling the dice a little bit,because you do get occasional
rogue verdicts, sometimes from ajudge.
More commonly, when there's ajury, they see somebody injured.
(33:15):
He's got three kids at home,they're suffering because they
don't have any income.
They're looking for somebody toget paid, unfortunately and you
get those rogue verdicts.
You could have a real exposureA marina person who's actually
repairing, replacing slips.
Docks are considered longshore.
(33:36):
You've got the defense costsand you've got that
subcontractor on inshoresubcontractor and that road
verdict.
All those reasons for a minimumpremium.
I think it's $200, $250 for ayard to add longshore.
On an if-any basis.
It gives you an unlimiteddefense cost policy, if nothing
(33:56):
else.
Kristina Hebert (33:57):
And I think that that's what and what about
for small businesses, becauseI'm always letting people know
that maybe there's anopportunity in a yard.
First off, how do you knowyou're never going to do any
commercial work?
You say that you always dorecreational work, but maybe you
do work on, maybe you work on adinner cruise, maybe you work
on a towboat, maybe you work ona government, a military vessel
(34:19):
and and you should have that, ifany coverage but also if you're
in a facility, what happens?
If I am a sole proprietor, I amin the safest contracting job,
that is whatever that is.
But I go into a yard that hasboth commercial and recreational
.
Technically I should have tohave longshore to go into a yard
(34:42):
that accommodates both.
Ian Greenway (34:44):
You should.
I mean, if you're not workingon the commercial vessel, then
it's unlikely you'll eversucceed to get that claim.
But that again doesn't stopsomebody suing you.
It doesn't stop you goingforward and it pays for the
defense costs.
Absolutely, and I think that'sthe critical part of it.
But the basis of the LongshoreAct and, for that matter, any
(35:07):
workers' compact is you getinjured, somebody's going to pay
you for your lost wages,somebody's going to pay you for
your medical expenses and forthat reason alone, particularly
if you're in the slightly morehazardous class, yes, you can't
be liable for yourself, youcan't sue yourself effectively.
But you can if you're acorporation, because the
(35:28):
individual and the corporationare two separately legal
entities so they can cross-suein that case.
Kristina Hebert (35:33):
Have you noticed an increase?
I know that in people thatobviously attend your coursework
et cetera are highly moreeducated than a lot of others,
but have you noticed that theagents and the insurance
industry is keeping up?
I know that at some point wewere struggling.
Some do, and some don't.
Ian Greenway (35:50):
Yeah, I mean there's.
There's no question.
There are better agents thatunderstand this and understand
the best ways to advise people.
Then there's agents that don't.
We actually converted ourseminars now into a professional
designation program.
Okay, the four-hour seminarthat you probably thought was
far too long when you first satthrough it 20 years ago is now a
(36:12):
two-day, 16-hour seminar.
Kristina Hebert (36:14):
Really, maybe I need to like up my game here.
Ian Greenway (36:18):
And even then I was wondering you know, how are
we going to get 16 hours ofmaterial when you actually get
through it?
We're even still top level ofdetail on that and the average
agent doesn't need to get rightinto the weeds of how does a
claim get adjusted and stufflike that.
But there's still a lot goingon in the industry.
There are one of theinteresting parts we have,
(36:43):
particularly down here in thesoutheast, is that a lot of
agents have one or two marineaccounts.
Okay.
Is that?
A lot of agents have one or twomarine accounts Okay?
If you go to the West Coast orthe Northeast, you find a few
agents have 99% of the marineaccounts Okay.
So they tend to be slightlybetter, more specialized in
marine business and a better setof knowledge.
(37:04):
Because we've got so many smallagencies and so many small
businesses in this neck of thewoods that knowledge is a little
spread.
Kristina Hebert (37:13):
Let's just put it nicely so how do consumers
find more knowledge?
Can they go to your website?
Can they go, for example, likethis book that I'm holding up,
that I got from one of theseminars.
It really I mean it goesthrough the act, it goes through
the exposures, it givesindustry examples, employment,
(37:34):
like where do people go to getthe right information?
If I call my agent.
I have a wonderful agent, youdo, I do Jill, jill Levy Risk
Strategies.
If I to call Jill whatever shetells me, I'm going to be like
okay, because my agent told meand I feel like a lot of people
have that trust and thatrelationship with their agents
but maybe they're not gettingthe right information.
I feel like anybody that'stelling somebody in the marine
(37:57):
industry to go to these yardswithout longshore is making a
huge mistake.
They're opening up themselvesthe yard, is exposing themselves
to, to, to liability, allowingthese companies in, and it's not
really that expensive anymore.
What could a policy be for?
I'm not holding you to it, butI am kind of just ballpark.
(38:19):
Back in the day, there used tobe these minimum policies
$10,000, $20,000.
We don't see that anymore,right.
Ian Greenway (38:26):
There are some exceptions to that.
I mean the real, what they callvoluntary market policies.
Most people are around $5,000up now.
There's the involuntary market.
Kristina Hebert (38:35):
And the $5,000 is in premium or in payroll.
Ian Greenway (38:38):
Premium, Premium.
Okay, In the involuntary marketyou can go down, I think, to
$1,500 today.
Kristina Hebert (38:44):
Okay.
Ian Greenway (38:45):
In Florida's case it's the Florida World Comp, jua
.
Every state has a similaroperation from that point of
view.
But I think there's a couple ofthings you do.
I mean, I think, when you'retalking to your agent first, one
of the questions is how much ofyour business is marine?
Yep, If the answer is, well, wedo this, this and this, or the
agent's not, it probably tellsyou they're not going to give
(39:10):
you the right advice.
Most agents across the countryare general agents.
They do all types of business.
They'll do restaurants andhotels and everything.
Kristina Hebert (39:17):
Sure.
Ian Greenway (39:17):
And some marine.
Some are highly specialized.
I mentioned the professionaldesignation program we run today
.
It's called IMIS, sorry, calledCMIP is the designation.
It's run by the organization.
It's called IMIS CMIP CertifiedMarine Insurance Professional.
If the agent has got that,those four letters behind their
(39:39):
name, and you might find it CIC,cmip and maybe a couple of
others, then you've got somebodyat least has gone through the
training.
Kristina Hebert (39:47):
Is there a listing of all of this Do?
You have this on your website?
Do you have this on yourwebsite?
We?
Ian Greenway (39:50):
can link it to the website.
The actual sponsoringorganization is called I-M-I-S,
i-i-m-i-scom, or org for thatmatter, and on there every agent
who's gone through the.
There's four parts to thiscourse.
Each is 16 hours.
So they've gone through 64hours of training.
They passed a test on eachsection.
(40:11):
Good, so you know it's anonline test.
You know it's not rocketscience, but it's still a test
on the knowledge and they'veobtained and they maintain that
professional destination.
They have to come back everytwo years for one more seminar.
So, again, if you're lookingeither for an agent, go to
iimisorgcom and on there itshows a list of the graduates.
(40:35):
Okay, good, you can pick bystate and then it'll explain.
Some of them are underwritersin there.
The vast majority are agents.
There's a few MGAs like us inthere, but look for an agent on
there.
But again, look, do you havethat CMIP designation?
That's going to certainly tellyou the person.
They may not be a specialist inmarine but they've gone through
(40:58):
the training Sure.
Kristina Hebert (40:59):
Well, at least you know that they're going to
advise you properly and they'refamiliar with your industry.
Ian Greenway (41:01):
Every day, we see businesses that have been around
10, 15 years coming in throughan agent to our office saying we
need longshore insurance.
Okay, but you haven't had anyin the past.
Well, we didn't know.
Our agent told us that wedidn't need it and it's such a
common issue today and,unfortunately, some of it comes
(41:22):
in after the claims happen andyou can't retroactively place
this Plus I never really want tohave somebody you say, oh no,
sorry, you can't do thatcommercial job because you don't
have longshore.
Kristina Hebert (41:35):
Exactly.
Why would you want to turnbusiness away?
Yeah?
Ian Greenway (41:39):
Maybe you need to charge a little more for it
because the rate's a littlehigher, but at least you have
that available.
Kristina Hebert (41:43):
Well, that was going to be another question I
had.
So what can companies do ifthey're not sure?
So one, they can go to thisI-M-I-S, i-m-i-s.
Ian Greenway (41:53):
I-M-I-S.
Yeah, international Insurance,international Institute for
Marine Insurance Studies.
Kristina Hebert (41:58):
Okay, i-m-i-s either org or com and they can
get that.
But also as a company, what canthey do?
I know, for example, I have todo like a self audit every year,
so I have to make sure that Ikeep my payroll classifications.
(42:19):
I make sure that I have all ofmy employees separated by their
category.
So I have technicians, I havepeople in a retail store, I have
admin staff, et cetera.
So I keep that.
So do you recommend people?
Keep their employees, keeptheir payroll separate,
understand, limit maybe whocould be in a longshore
situation, so that they canunderstand.
Ian Greenway (42:40):
How does the if-any coverage work?
So the audit process is suchthat where the employer has to
provide data to an auditor afterthe expiry of the policy, part
of that has to be what they callcontemporary records of payroll
.
If you want to play a payrollsplit, let's say one of your
technicians earns $100.
(43:01):
If you just put that $100 inthere and say, well, part of his
work was longshore and part wasstate act, the auditor is
forced to put all of it inlongshore.
Okay.
But if you can track it and say, well, on Tuesday, from nine
o'clock till three o'clock hewas on a longshore job, and from
three o'clock to five o'clockhe was on a state act job.
On Wednesday, he was on a stateact job.
(43:22):
If you've got that trackingyou're allowed to payroll split.
Yep, yep.
But you have to have thatcontemporary record.
The author may not always askfor it, but it has to be there
to prove it, should you everneed it.
Then at the year end you gookay, well, I added up Joe's
total payroll.
He's made $50,000, $20,000 ofthat was on longshore work,
(43:44):
$30,000 with that on state act.
You get to split that price andthat keeps the price under
control at audit.
Remember, with all the premiumsyou pay up front, there are
only estimates.
There are estimates based onwhat you think your payroll
might be and it's actuallyaudited on the back end.
So if your estimate says, oh, Ithink I'm going to do $100,000
(44:06):
of longshore work and youactually end up only doing $20,
doing 20, you get that $80,000worth back.
Kristina Hebert (44:19):
And you do.
By the way, I've done theaudits, I've done it and I do
believe that the more effort youput into organizing your
payroll organizing, evenlimiting you know clearly.
For example, in my company Ihave a lot of administrative, I
have a lot of retail people.
None of those people are goingto be in a yard.
It's very limited to the two orthree technicians that I have
that are going to be at thelevel or going to be the ones
(44:40):
that I'm sending to thecommercial work.
And you absolutely know that inyour own business and you
monitor the way that you taketheir payroll in and out and
most payroll systems will allowyou to put a code in Correct.
Ian Greenway (44:53):
I think you're 3684, if I can remember
correctly.
Kristina Hebert (44:56):
Whatever the code is 5190 is my electrician's
.
Yes, I just did my audit, notthat long, chrissy knows better.
Ian Greenway (45:02):
But if you put a code into your payroll system
5190, and then a second code,5190f, which F designates
federal, I never understood whyit wasn't a L but F.
Kristina Hebert (45:14):
I thought of other things True.
Ian Greenway (45:18):
But if you designate that in your payroll
system then it makes it so mucheasier to track and to summarize
those payroll hours and yourtechnician might be doing some
work here in the shop.
They're basically back intostate act again, even if that
work is ultimately going on to acommercial vessel.
Kristina Hebert (45:38):
So I pull up another chair, I sit down the
President Trump and we say, hey,we really want to get this
right and he's got a pencil.
Is there anything else youwould change in the act, or what
would you change or could wechange?
Ian Greenway (45:56):
Well, there's an interesting question, I know.
Kristina Hebert (45:59):
And you know what?
I didn't think of it that longago and I didn't prep you with
it, so there's no wrong answer,I think.
Ian Greenway (46:03):
I'd really just want to throw the rule book out.
I mean, that was the thing thatmade it so the Department of
Labor rule implementation.
Kristina Hebert (46:11):
Just kind of scratch that out, stick with
what the original language wasand move on, let's rewind to
2011.
Let's do it.
I'm going to email Trump today,this afternoon.
Ian Greenway (46:20):
Okay.
Kristina Hebert (46:21):
Okay.
Ian Greenway (46:22):
Let's see if we can you know again to me it's
not trying to sell insurancepolicy.
I don't think is the criticalpart.
It's trying to say that personcan go home, if injured, with
benefits with somebody to paythe medical expenses.
Because I think somebody toldme recently medical failed to
(46:43):
pay medical expenses is thenumber one reason for bankruptcy
today, for personal bankruptcytoday.
Yeah, and you get a seriousinjury, you go into hospital, I
have no doubt.
You're right, it's six figuresbefore you settle up.
Settle up, I mean, thesenumbers are just getting
astronomic now and that becomesan instant burden on your family
(47:03):
.
Kristina Hebert (47:03):
Yes, and as an employer, you need to take care
of your employees and employeesneed to be covered and you need
to take care of them.
But even as an owner-operator,yeah you need to take care of
yourself.
Ian Greenway (47:14):
Yes, and your family, yeah.
I mean, one of the biglongshore companies has a banner
outside of most of theirinsurers that says arrive home
alive.
Yeah, and fortunately we don'tget that many death claims in
the rec industry.
You do more in the commercial,but arrive home in one piece,
(47:34):
right Doesn't rhyme quite aswell.
No, but I think it's a veryimportant.
You know, either arrive home inone piece or have the resources
to get yourself back.
The people that elect not tobuy workers' comp are not
providing they and theirfamilies the remedy should they
(47:54):
get injured.
So that's why it triggers on togo and find somebody to pay for
the industry.
Yes, for the injuries.
Kristina Hebert (48:01):
So we need employers to cover their
employees, we need the yards andmarinas.
What do you think they shoulddo?
Ian Greenway (48:07):
They've got to police this.
I mean they've got to police it.
Kristina Hebert (48:10):
Don't accept state comp exemptions, unless
you want to own them onlongshore.
Ian Greenway (48:14):
Yeah, and remember , if that accident happens
you're going to get sued and youmay have defense costs, but at
the end of the day, that claimis going to sit on your loss
record for five years.
It's going to drive up yourexperience, mod.
It's going to cost you moremoney, absolutely Than buying
the insurance.
Kristina Hebert (48:32):
Than buying the insurance, having it or
policing it.
Well, you heard it here today.
Thank you for being here, ian.
I look forward to it.
I'll call Trump, we'll try toget the Department of Labor's
definition erased and we'll gofrom there.
Ian Greenway (48:46):
But it's been an amazing journey and I look
forward to the next, the nextstep, the next adventure you're
gonna cure tariffs at the sametime that's it too so yeah sure,
we'll take care of that, okay,thank you.
Thank you for invitingabsolutely.
Kristina Hebert (49:01):
Thank you for joining us this season on season
three of the wardsway podcast.
Be sure you subscribe becausethere's much more to come.
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