July 20, 2025 • 64 mins
To learn more about Silvia Wistuba and her work, please visit here and here.
Cover Image: Wistuba's adaptation of work by artist Julie Wolfthorn for the cover of Jugend magazine (1898).
Show Notes
0:00 Silvia Wistuba on equality of artists
1:15 Wistuba’s background
2:30 Gabriele Münter
4:30 ‘Malweiber’ meaning
6:00 timeframe of ‘Malweiber’ labeling – 1871-1918
8:30 research process
12:00 regional approach to research
15:00 twelve female artists focused on in research
16:30 finding that art is not gendered
18:15 Charlotte Corinth
21:30 Dora Hitz
22:40 Maria Slavona
24:25 Augusta von Zitzewitz
25:20 Erma Bossi
26:25 Elisabeth Epstein
27:23 Maria Franck-Marc
30:30 Gabriele Münter
32:25 Elisabeth Erdmann-Macke
34:25 Ida Gerhardi
36:30 Fifi Kreutzer
37:55 Olga Openheimer
40:30 range of resources
43:30 Blue Rider Group
45:30 Gabriele Münter’s donation to Lenbachhaus (Munich)
49:00 Museum Art of the Lost Generation
51:30 current relevance
53:30 need for discourse on art’s social context
55:08 social justice for artists of the past
55:20 defining justice as respect shown to all
56:25 feedback
58:10 challenging the sexist paradigm that art is gendered
59:40 plans to convert thesis into book
1:00:15 derogatory nature of term ‘Malweiber’
1:01:45 cover image inspired by Julie Wolfthorn’s image
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Music by Toulme.
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Thanks so much for listening!
© Stephanie Drawdy [2025]
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I believe, as an art historian, it's sort of my duty,
in a way, to do this, to makethe public understand that there
are female artists out therewho are just as good as male
artists.
There's no distinction, there'sno marginalization.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We're all the same marginalization, we're all the
same.
Welcome to Warfare of Art andLaw, the podcast that focuses on
how justice does or doesn'tplay out when art and law
overlap.
Hi everyone, it's Stephanie,and that was art historian
Sylvia Westubud.
What follows is a conversationwith Sylvia where she discusses
(00:44):
female artists from Germanmodernism and the derogatory
term that was used to labelthese female artists Mollweiber,
Sylvia Wastuba.
Welcome to Warfare of Art andLaw.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Absolutely so.
Would you give an overview ofyour background, your work and
what brought you to focus on theMalweiber?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Of course.
Well, I was born in Australiaof German parents, so my first
language was German, and this iswhere I have the relationship
with Germany, even though Iwasn't born there, and I've
always been interested in art.
But somehow life always got inthe way until 2011 to 2012, when
(01:45):
I went into art school and thatseemed to just open my eyes to
a different world because I wasintroduced to different genres
and movements and I reallybecame interested in art history
.
So to further that because Iwasn't going to set the world on
fire with my art, to further myknowledge, I decided well,
(02:10):
let's go to university.
So I enrolled as a mature agestudent, completed my Bachelor
of Arts, majoring in Art Historywith a distinction, and then I
went on to do my honours, whereI was awarded first class and
the honours subject wasGabrielle Mentor and the Modern
(02:33):
World, and it was about theartist Gabrielle Mentor, who is
better known as VasilyKandinsky's muse, lover,
girlfriend, rather than anartist in her own right.
So, researching her, Idiscovered the term Moldeba,
(02:54):
which then opened my eyes to theinjustice that these artists
were faced with and I thought Ihave to write about these women.
Artists in the past don't havevoices.
So I thought, as an arthistorian, that's what I need to
do.
I need to explain to the worldwhat they did and what they
(03:19):
achieved.
So that brought me to doing myPhD, which is called Malweiber
the Artists of German Modernism.
So that's where we are at themoment.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I just think it's so interesting that you ran across
that term and then you wereinspired by it.
I too ran across that term andwas so intrigued by this, like
I'd already known that thesewomen had faced such challenges
in their era.
But then to know that there wasa term around it.
(03:53):
So I wonder, maybe if we juststart with the term and what
your research unfolded with that, and then wherever you want to
take us, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, well, I do need to explain the term Malweber.
So if I translate it, it is Malis to paint and Weber is a
woman, but it's the familiarterm of woman In Imperial
Germany where this thesis is set.
At that time it was veryconservative and perhaps it
(04:29):
still is a little bit in Germanyat the moment, in that if you
speak to a woman, you and a man,you use the unfamiliar or the
polite term, whereas Weber issimilar to I don't know what it
would be in American, but inAustralia we would say Sheila's.
(04:50):
It's a derogatory term and atthat time it was actually a
swear word.
So it was aimed originally atdilettantes, amateur painters
who were just filling in timebefore they got married.
But then there came the seriouswomen artists who wanted to make
(05:13):
a career out of this.
Men saw them as competitioncoming into their art world.
So they kept going with thisderogatory phrase to try and put
them down in any way possible.
(05:34):
And this was covered also inmedia, in satirical journals, in
novels, in books, always thisreference back to Malvava,
linking her with a third sex.
And it was such a put down termthat these women, that was
(05:58):
another challenge.
They had to struggle past that,as well as many other obstacles
which we can discuss later ifyou wish.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And if you would kind of give a.
You've kind of mentioned thisis Imperial Germany, so what's
the timeframe we're in?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yep timeframe is 1871 to 1918, sorry, at the end of
World War I and that was a timeof great unsettling.
I suppose that conservativeGermany moving into modernism
(06:38):
changes with electricity, withthe women's movement.
There was all sorts of factorsinvolved in that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so 1918, do you see where after that point I
mean, there's a lot going on theBauhaus and lots of different
doors opening for women, eventhough they're still kind of
closed in many ways.
Once you got in the institution, like the Bauhaus, for example,
(07:09):
like what classes you could orcouldn't take, so does that term
kind of uh, fall out of vogue?
Uh, not that women ever thoughtit was in vogue, but like as
the use by men.
Did it fall out around 1918 ordid you see it lingering?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, yes, my research has shown that, like everything
changed with World War I, eventhe type of art that was being
produced was much more joyfuland adventurous, whereas art
created after World War I tendedto be more sombre and some of
(07:52):
it was disturbing, as in Germanexpressionism the second stage
but because female artists wereactually forbidden to enter art
academies until 1920.
That then was when the changesbegan and the term was not
(08:14):
really used after that.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What was the research process for you?
So you're in Australia.
Did you do this online or wereyou going into archives?
How did that work?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
yeah, well, that was a bit disappointing for me
because I started this in 2020,um, just when COVID hit and I
had planned to go to Germany todo research.
So, uh, of course, with theshutdown, it was very, very
difficult for me.
I had to do everything online.
(08:52):
Even some texts like hard copytexts from international
libraries I couldn't get becauselibraries didn't want to send
anything out in case it nevercame back again, which was the
case, I believe, in a lot ofcircumstances.
So, yes, mostly online.
It was difficult to research alot of archival things, but I
(09:13):
did my best with what I got andbecause of that, I also had to
change my strategy as I wasresearching and evolved the
thesis from the information thatI could actually find.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What was the shift then, and how did that impact
the final product of your thesis?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah Well, what I did with my research strategy was
to try and find as many names asI could of female artists.
That was the first thing I hadto do.
The final count and this is byno means complete is 1,134 names
(10:05):
.
So I had to access everydictionary lexicon that I could
possibly find and go througheach individual entry to see if
that artist was active inGermany or born in Germany, and
then take it from there.
So from that lot of names, Ihad to then do a long list, then
(10:32):
a short list and then the final12 artists that I've chosen.
And again, all of this was howmuch information could I find on
them?
So that was what it boiled downto.
If I could get sufficientinformation, I could view their
artworks, then I could talkabout them.
(10:53):
So I've got a final 12, and thedirection it's taken is that
I've regionalised the artists,because in Germany that time
there were main centres,artistic centres of Berlin,
munich and the Rhineland, whichencompassed Dusseldorf and
(11:16):
Cologne, and regionalising theartists has also sort of made
very important what type of artthey did, what genre.
They weren't really involved inmovements, but there was
(11:37):
impressionism and expressionisminvolved.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So, depending on which of those three regions,
you saw a specific genreemerging.
How did that work between thethree?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, funnily enough, berlin, because it was much
more traditional, realist, andthen it became impressionist.
There was problems where themale artists were starting to
(12:19):
succeed from the art academiesto form their own groups and
movements, the successions wherethey could do their own style
without being forced to dotraditional art.
So from there developedImpressionism, and it was not
(12:41):
French Impressionism, obviouslyit was German, which was
slightly different.
It was still en plein air, butit was perhaps not quite as
light-filled as what the Frenchwas.
French Impressionism was,whereas Munich was different
because it had a lot of Russianimmigrants and people from other
(13:05):
nations, even from America, whobrought with them new ideas and
vibes.
And this is where a lot ofexperimentation took place in
Munich, and that's what I wouldcall the centre of expressionism
, because there was a loosenessthere.
(13:25):
There was more opportunitiesfor women to get private tuition
, art training there, becausethey couldn't enter the
academies, and it was like itwas actually called the Paris of
Germany Munich, like what wasactually called the Paris of
Germany in Munich.
(13:46):
So it had that bohemianlifestyle that is sometimes what
an artist needs to be creative.
Now the Rhineland, if I finishoff with the three regions, was
again rather expressionistic,but it took it one step further
with the theme ofGesamtkunstwerk, which is like
(14:09):
the art of life, you know, artbeing life, or incorporating art
with life.
And they would move moretowards textiles, utilitarian
objects that were still works ofart, utilitarian objects that
were still works of art.
And because of their proximityto France, they were very much
(14:33):
inspired, I'd say, rather thaninfluenced, by what was
happening there.
So they were also making leapsand bounds in going forward with
modernism.
So the women artists had thesethree regions to go to, but many
(14:55):
had the opportunities to alsogo to Paris.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
So you said you started with just over 1,000.
Was it 1,034,?
You said yeah, and then younarrow it down to 12.
So what were the criteria?
And my first thought is howdifficult it was to find the art
by these women like any imagesthat still existed.
(15:20):
So was that your biggestcriteria, or how did that work?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
It was mainly finding information about their
education and what sort of artthey were doing.
Did they contribute to Germanmodernism?
That was the main criteria.
How did they contribute?
In which way?
How did they contribute, uh, inwhich way that?
(15:50):
Was there some new techniquethat they created?
Uh, were they at all?
God, were they experimenting?
But yes, the crux was, um, didthey contribute?
And obviously, was thereartworks available for me to
analyse?
Because in my thesis, that'sexactly what I do.
(16:11):
I show their artworks on theirmerit and actually compare them
with male artists of the sameera, and part of the thesis is
that art is not gendered so yousaw equal talent and skill.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It was equal, it was equal?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
yeah, it was equal.
And that's what was amazing forme to think that, yes, they've
contributed, but why are theyunknown now or little known?
You know, in the art world wemay remember Paula
Mollison-Becker or KatjaKollwitz, but nobody remembers
(16:59):
Augusta von Zitzewitz or MariaSloana, or even Charlotte
Berend-Corinth, who was the wifeof Lovis Corinth, especially
the ones that were married toartists.
You don't hear about them, youonly hear that they're the
artist's wife.
But they were on a levelplaying field.
(17:23):
But they were on a levelplaying field, and this is what
my thesis hopes to expose.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And I applaud you for that.
Thank you for doing this work.
I love and just want to hearmore, so tell me if you would.
Could you break down perhaps alittle as much as you care to
share, like a capsule about eachof the 12 that you chose and
you've kind of already alludedto a few of them, referencing
(17:53):
them just now but maybe justgive a taste for each artist's
work and what they contributedthat you found so compelling?
I'd love to do that, but howmuch time have we got you found
so compelling?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I'd love to do that.
But how much time have we got?
I've got as much time as youneed.
Okay, there's 12.
As we said, I've regionalizedthem.
So if I start off with Berlin,charlotte Berendt-Korinth was
married to the Germanimpressionist Lovis Korinth Now.
She met him at a very young age.
He's about 30 years older thanher.
(18:29):
She actually was a student athis private art school and he
became enamoured with her andover her lifetime his lifetime,
sorry he painted over 80paintings of her.
So she was his muse as well.
But she was also a verytalented artist and that's why
(18:50):
I'm thinking he might havemarried her, because she was
competition.
But she had family.
She still had to bring upchildren, found time for her art
, but she did her own own thingrather than just go the straight
line of impressionism like herhusband was doing.
(19:10):
She broached taboo subjects forthat time.
She was the first artist, maleor female, to actually depict
childbirth in a painting, and itwas not this Madonna type, it
was the gritty.
It was called Der SchwereStunde, the Difficult Hour of
(19:35):
Childbirth, and unfortunatelythis painting was destroyed in
World War II and there's just aphotograph of it that survives
and two oil studies.
But for her to do a subjectlike that and actually exhibit
it.
I've found well that that'svery inventive.
(20:00):
That's part of German modernismbreaking the boundaries and
trying new things.
And this is what she did.
She also, um, did graphics,lithograph graphic prints of um?
Um the theater people, um,erotic dancers.
(20:24):
She did some very erotic nakedphotos, or semi-naked photos,
sorry, graphics.
And again, that's not whatwomen were supposed to be
painting or creating art about.
But she was doing it with afemale gaze, not a male gaze,
(20:46):
and that is the big difference.
However, she ended up devotingher final years after the
husband died, in writing memoirsabout her life with him, and
she organised his catalogue,raison, and organised
(21:08):
exhibitions and just put all herlife into his memory.
So that is also anothercontribution to modernism,
because the world wouldn't knowso much about her husband if she
didn't do that, charlotte.
The next one, dora Hitz.
(21:28):
She's an older artist who wasable to get good training in the
days when there were academiesopen for women.
Most academies closed for womenin 1879.
So she had training.
(21:49):
She was actually asked toillustrate a book for the Queen
of Romania and theseillustrations the Queen then
wanted painted as murals in herpalace, which she also did.
But the good thing with Dora isshe was true to Germany and she
(22:15):
tried to get involved with manygroups and successions to help
women to be able to exhibit.
So not only was she anexcellent artist herself in the
forefront of Impressionism, butshe was there to help other
women.
(22:35):
Maria Slavona she's got a verysad tale, actually very talented
made her way from Berlin to toMunich, then to Paris, and in
Paris she led a very unusualbohemian lifestyle.
(22:58):
Two women and three men sharedan apartment in Paris and she
fell pregnant to one of the menand he left her soon after.
So if you can imagine, in 1891,I think, the child was born
being a single mother in Paris,unmarried.
(23:21):
She's got no money.
She has to try and supportherself.
So she's trying to sellpaintings in an art market that
favours men.
So she signs her name, mostlyjust her surname, so her work is
(23:44):
virtually anonymous, which is areal shame.
Anyway, as fortune had it, shemanaged to marry well enough to
go back to Germany, because shecouldn't go back with a child
unmarried.
She came back to Germany andwas lauded for her wonderful
(24:06):
impersonism and there are manyof her paintings in galleries in
Germany at the moment, whichI'm really happy about, and
they're actually on display,which is good.
Excuse me, augusta vonZisterwitz she's another
(24:27):
Impressionist.
She was famous for portraitureand she was in society.
She painted a lot of societypeople and also there in
galleries.
She was also writing inmagazines and her portraits that
(24:53):
she did of the society peopleappeared in these society
magazines, so at the time shewas well known in her lifetime.
Now, if we go to Munich, as Isaid, munich was the avant-garde
and we have a lot of I have twoartists there that weren't
(25:15):
German-born but they were activein Germany, and the first one's
Irma Bossi.
She was born in what is nowCroatia, was then part of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire, and shedid the breakthrough into
(25:41):
Expressionism, and her work isvery colourful, very similar to
the male artists ofExpressionism, such as Auguste
Marquis and Franz Marc and alsoVasily Kandinsky, and if you do
put their images side by sidethey are equal.
(26:03):
Again, not much is known abouther.
That's probably her own fault,because she didn't keep proper
records.
She actually lied about her age, trying to make herself younger
sometimes, but I managed tofind quite a bit of information
about her, which is good.
(26:23):
Elizabeth Epstein she was alsosimilar to Irma Bossi.
She broke through toExpressionism but she spent a
lot of time in France so shealso had a bit of Fauvism in her
(26:45):
works because she was veryfamiliar with Matisse being in
France.
She had a good network set upthere and she also contributed
to the Blue Rider group inMunich, which I also explain in
my thesis.
She introduced Robert Delaneyto Vasilija Kandinsky and he
(27:12):
became part of their exhibitionsand the group.
And again, that wouldn't havehappened if it wasn't for
Elizabeth Epstein.
Maria Frank-Marc is a very sad,has a very sad story, has a very
sad story.
She was from middle castebackground with very strict
(27:35):
parents who wanted to see herwell-married.
She wanted to do art.
She went to art school and sheactually studied and became an
art teacher to teach in highschools.
But she wanted to furtherherself in her career.
So she ended up going to Munichand she met by chance the
(28:03):
painter Franz Marc and fell inlove.
But it was a very torridrelationship and he ended up
marrying someone else.
Even though he said heprofessed his love to her.
Her parents would always bringher back to Berlin.
(28:23):
She went down to Munich.
Again.
It was a sad, sorry thing thathe married someone else, then
left this woman.
He and Maria lived in sin,which was really a bad thing to
do in that era, until hisdivorce was finally settled a
(28:48):
few years later and they couldthen eventually marry.
They had a wonderfulrelationship, by her memoirs,
and even though she actually hadmore art training than he, she
did take advice from him.
(29:09):
In certain ways their works seemvery similar.
I don't think one influencedthe other.
I don't believe in that sort ofinfluence because it's your
work.
You do what you want to do ifyou're an artist.
But unfortunately he was killedin World War I in action and
(29:29):
she never painted again.
After that she spent her lifeagain cataloguing all his works,
promoting him in exhibitions,in books, speaking with authors
about, doing biographies andagain putting him within the art
(29:52):
historical canon for inperpetuity, whereas her work has
never been seen.
So she ended up going to theBauhaus in the 20s and 30s and
she learnt weaving and that'swhat she did for the rest of her
(30:15):
life.
But it's very sad that shenever painted again.
She had some beautiful, veryexpressive paintings and then,
lastly, in Munich, is GabrielleMunter my favourite.
And then, lastly, in Munich, isGabrielle Munter, my favourite,
simply because she strove sohard to make the breakthrough
(30:38):
and she actually invented herown style of painting, her own
technique of painting, where shesimplified forms and she
actually created form withcolour and then put a black
outline around it and while itmight look naive, it was an
(31:00):
actual breakthrough in modernism.
Her works for me are veryimportant.
Her works for me are veryimportant.
Her contribution to modernism,as they were a social and
cultural commentary.
She was an outcast because shelived with Vasily Kandinsky
(31:23):
without being married, so shewas not accepted in polite
society.
She only had a very tightcircle of friends, so her
paintings were often studies ofsociety within her own realm and
that speaks a lot for how womenwere treated as being on the
(31:48):
outer, even though she was partof the Blue Rider group.
If they had meetings the maleartists would be together and
the female artists would be onthe outer.
She created the most importantcontribution, I believe.
The most important contribution, I believe, and I look forward
(32:18):
to showing all her works in mythesis.
The Rhineland, as I've said, wasa region of progress and I've
got four artists here whocontributed in different ways.
There was Elizabeth EdmundMackey, who was wife of August
Mackey, who was also a Germanexpressionist.
He also was killed in action inWorld War I and during his
(32:45):
lifetime she was also his muse.
He painted very I can'tremember now but it was over 100
paintings of her.
But the Gesamtkunstwerk of thisart and life was something that
(33:05):
involved the whole family,something that involved the
whole family.
So Elizabeth was not only museto her husband, she also, from
his designs, createdembroideries, created tapestries
(33:29):
that would be used to coverfurniture, to be put on
tabletops.
All these tactile things shedid, but no one knows she did it
.
So that for me also is notright.
(33:51):
She needs to be acknowledgedhere for the work that she's
done and, again, similar toMaria Frank-Marc, when her
husband, auguste, died, she alsowrote books, memoirs, her life
with him catalogued his works,made sure that there were
exhibitions there for his nameto be known, but in the process
(34:16):
her name wasn't known.
So again, this is her greatcontribution.
Ida Guhardi was a single womanwho didn't.
Heidi was a single woman whodidn't have the great family
fortune that most of the othersdid.
So she needed to get a patronto help her be educated, and she
(34:41):
did go to Paris and stayedthere for many years and in
Paris, like most of theseartists, when they went there
they opened up because it was adifferent environment and she
was a very good portraitist.
But she had to do it for money,to survive and, as an artist, I
(35:03):
think, stephanie, you canappreciate this as well.
If you're forced to dosomething creative but it's not
your style of creation, youbecome a little bit frustrated
and you want to do what you wantto do.
So she would go out and quicklysketch the Parisian nightlife.
She'd go to these dance hallsand bars, places where women
(35:28):
weren't supposed to go, placeswhere women weren't supposed to
go or proper women weren'tsupposed to go on their own, and
she would sketch the charactersthere, similar to what Dagar
used to do Go into these placesand just watch people watch and
just watch people watch.
(35:49):
So she did beautiful colouredpaintings of these nightlives
which weren't accepted back inGermany because it was regarded
as being too French.
And she would try to sell herworks to even the gallery in the
(36:09):
town where she was born and shewas so upset she wrote in
memoirs does an artist have todie before the gallery will buy
their paintings?
You know, like, as it turnedout, they did buy it after her
death.
Fifi Kreutzer is the youngestartist.
(36:30):
She was also married to anartist and she did many mediums
of painting drawings.
She did a lot of ink andwatercolour drawings.
Again, I've compared her withher husband and with others in
(36:53):
that era, male and females, andthey're equal.
She's made that contribution.
But one of her finest works wasan embroidered painting called
the Dragonslayer and it wasbased on, you know, st George
(37:14):
and the Dragon or Siegfried.
The Dragonslayer is a tale, afolk tale in Germany, and this
was a triptych that was quitelarge, over a metre wide, and it
was telling the story, the folktale, but instead of painting
(37:36):
she's embroidered it and it isan outstanding work.
I've never seen anything likeit.
I also have photos of that inmy thesis and that's something
that had never been done and Iconsider that a very good
contribution.
And my final artist, olgaOppenheimer, again, is not
(37:59):
really known.
She was also a painter andgraphic artist but her major
contribution to modernism wasthat she fortunately she had the
funds she created this club ofsorts and it was called the
Gerons Club.
(38:20):
It was a meeting space, it wasan exhibition space.
She held seminars space um, sheheld seminars, she organized
artists from france to come umand exhibit there, and, and
really she was at the forefrontof bringing french art to german
(38:42):
audiences.
Again, that was the proximity Iwas explaining that cologne
very close to France, so shecould do all of this.
She still created her own art,yes, but I think this work was
more important.
Unfortunately, world War I came,her brother was killed in
(39:03):
action.
She had a mental and nervousbreakdown, didn't paint again
and unfortunately ended up in amental and nervous breakdown.
Didn't paint again andunfortunately ended up in a
mental asylum until the NationalSocialists came in and took her
off and she was murdered.
(39:24):
But all of them, all my 12artists, have done solid
contributions and this is what Iwant to explain Give them the
voice that they didn't have nowin the 21st century.
And I've created, just going abit further, to tighten this up.
(39:47):
In my research, I researched asmany exhibitions as I could on
each artist and I've created aspreadsheet which I've attached
as annexures to my thesis.
My reason for doing this isthat if there's any other
scholars that want to pick up onthis, at least they've got the
(40:10):
information and perhaps witharchival research within Germany
or something they may be ableto do, further research on the
artists.
Unfortunately, I can only justlimit in my thesis what I've
actually said to you.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
The different available resources that you
culled from.
You've mentioned memoir once ormaybe twice, and then the
exhibition information.
Perhaps there were exhibitionpamphlets, things like that,
like diaries.
I was just curious, like therange of sources that you had to
(40:51):
go through to pull thisinformation.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yes, that's exactly right.
A lot of the exhibitioncatalogs, fortunately, have been
digitized.
I was able to locate some ofthose Others.
I managed to get hard copiesfrom libraries.
Actually, talking of exhibitioncatalogues, that seems to be
(41:19):
the only scholarly work whereI've discovered these artists.
There's never actually beenmonologues, written or journal
articles about these artists,it's just essays within
exhibition catalogues.
And I'm talking about now inthe 21st century as well.
(41:39):
But yes, I had to cover throughthose archival records.
Wikipedia was a good source.
That was my beginning source,but of course that's not
scholarly.
But it gave me names, it gaveme a direction to follow and
(42:05):
quite often I would findinformation through their
husbands if they were married toan artist.
But yes, it was difficult attimes.
So that's what I'm saying Icould only work with what
information I could find whatwere the.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Did you find certain websites that were especially
helpful, and you have theadvantage of speaking German, so
that was not an issue for you.
So were a lot of.
Whatever sites you found, werethey mostly in German or had
there been translations that youran across?
Speaker 1 (42:45):
no, not many translations.
Um, obviously Wikipedia willwill give you the translated.
It's in German and English, butthe archival records are in
German.
So there were sites, or thereare sites of artists, women,
artists, associations that haverecords going back to when they
(43:10):
first started 1860s I think itwas.
That's all in german, thearchival texts in german, so
really there's not much in theenglish-speaking language that
you can find on the male libel.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You referenced how the Blue Rider group functioned.
I was curious about just for amoment that how did you learn
the way they excluded women orkept them on the outside, as you
said, I believe?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Again from notes and diary notes.
Women were more inclined towrite diaries and notes and
poetry, whereas men tended towrite books.
And it's within those diarynotes or memoirs that the women
(44:15):
open up and they explain howthings really are.
So I've got um notes fromseveral of the women in the Blue
Rider group and they do explainthe dynamics of the group and
how the men were always incharge and the women were doing
(44:39):
the menial chores.
Like Luria, frank was known forthe best coffee.
She made the best coffee attheir meetings.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I'm just kind of surprised.
When you actually come across adiary and it has that kind of
information, I just feel likeyou found a goldmine and
wonderful that they I mean notthat that's good information,
that they were known for that asopposed to their work but the
(45:15):
fact that the diary survived,especially like two wars, and
their lack of notoriety, likethat's that they didn't get
pitched in the bin, like that'sjust amazing to me.
Did you feel that way when youwould run across them?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Definitely, especially with Gabrielle Mentor
.
She kept a lot of things.
She also kept a lot ofpaintings of artists of the Blue
Rider group that she kept safeduring World War II.
She kept them in the basementof her house in Bavaria to keep
(45:54):
them safe from bombings.
So the end of the war, she hadall of these paintings and she
thought, well, my life's almostat an end.
On her 80th birthday she gifteda lot of these paintings to a
local art gallery in Munichwhich has an extensive
(46:15):
collection of blue-riderpaintings.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Which gallery is it?
Or did you say museum?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, I think they call themselves a museum over
there a lot, the Lenbach Housein Munich.
So she did that and she alsohad like a rider that her
private papers and diaries andall that could not be made
(46:46):
public until 20 years after herdeath.
Don't know why she did that.
She was originally going tothrow them all away because she
was hurt so badly by Kandinskythat she just you know it's like
set a fire to the photos andstuff.
So it was only the gallerydirector of that museum at the
(47:13):
time who had become friendlywith her, that said, please
don't throw them away, but letme keep them or you keep them
and then, after you've died,we'll make them public, which is
how we've got to see them.
Various authors have taken theletters, the correspondence
(47:33):
between them and made books, andthat's where I found a lot of
information as well in theirletters.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Any other of the 12 letters or diaries that you were
able like.
I'm just fascinated by that.
So, like I'm just curious, wasit the same kind of thing for
others?
Speaker 1 (47:56):
uh, where it was, uh, at their death, they donated
them, as opposed to another modeof them being saved over these
years um, yes, a lot of thesewomen artists that I discuss
survived after World War II andthey kept all the letters of
(48:20):
correspondence between theirhusbands.
Like Elizabeth Edmund Mackey,she kept correspondence with her
that her husband wrote lettersfrom the front, as did friends
Mark with Maria Mark.
They kept their letters andthey just wrote about their
lives with them and it does makeyou feel like you were there,
(48:47):
you witnessed it, you're part ofit when you're reading these
memoirs.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, and also you had mentioned to me when we were
corresponding, about the Museumof the Lost Generation being a
factor in your research, and Ifind them to be such a wonderful
resource, so would you describe, like, how they factored into
(49:12):
your work?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, I think it was because I was trying to find out
why these artists were unknownand there seemed to be a gap
there.
After World War II, the artworld moved from Europe to
America, basically New York andit was very male-oriented and I
(49:45):
thought there's got to besomething more here within
Germany, that where these womenare part of some sort of
remembrance, and that's where Icame across this lost generation
or even stolen generation someof them are called where during
(50:09):
National Socialism in the 30sand throughout the Second World
War, these artists were regardedas degenerate and their works
degenerate and a lot of theirworks were destroyed and they
weren't allowed to paint anymoreand exhibit anymore.
And all of that's just gone,it's lost, it's never to be seen
(50:34):
again.
And that made me look.
For is there somebody that'sdoing something about this?
And that's when I discoveredthis museum, and it is actually
a private collection, I believe.
And it is actually a privatecollection, I believe.
And this gentleman that owns itthat's his in life, that's what
(50:59):
he wants to do, he wants tocontinue collecting as many
artworks as he can, and I thinkthat's very admirable.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
I agree.
Well, the work you're doing isvery admirable and I appreciate
you walking us through andgiving us as much as you can of
the background of these 12 women.
And what would you say toanyone who's wondering how is
(51:28):
this relevant today and tofuture generations?
Like, how do you see theimportance of preserving and
highlighting the work of thesewomen?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well, I've always believed that the past informs
the present, and I'm writingabout these artists from 120
years ago.
More Things have not reallychanged much for female artists
in the 21st century.
They're still not regarded asequal.
(52:03):
I'm thinking more of an arthistorical line here, in that
education teaches a male-centricart history.
There's not many females inthere, and we need to change
(52:24):
that.
We need to make the publicaware that there were equals in
the timeline of art history, andthe only way to do that is to
explain to the currentgeneration what the past
generation went through, so wedon't make the same mistakes now
(52:48):
.
And the only way we can do thatreally is through education,
because the school system, theuniversity system, as I said,
just concentrates on maleartists.
Curators and gallery directorscome out of the university
(53:08):
system and then that's all theyare.
They try and promote men ratherthan women.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
So I hope that answers your question yeah,
absolutely, and I guess, in thatsame vein, the idea of why it's
important to create discourseabout the social context of art.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yes, exactly along the same lines, because art is,
it is social, it is a commentaryon that era, when it was made.
For these artists that I'mdiscussing, it was that time,
(53:57):
that era.
What was important to them?
Some of them, because theydidn't have a lot of training,
they tended to do their ownenvironments, which was just the
genre, like a still life.
That was a commentary, yes, oftheir environment.
(54:21):
But when a male artist did asocial sorry, a still life, he
was an avant-garde.
A still life, he was anavant-garde.
So at that time, in that era,there was that social thing that
still needs to be discussed.
It's an equal thing and thecurrent generation is slowly
(54:46):
understanding that.
But contemporary artists, Imean.
But my thesis is based on thepast and this is where I want
the social justice to happen forthe artists of the past, which
(55:06):
will inform the present.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
That brings me to ask we've talked a lot about
instances of the injustices, anddo you have, or has, your
concept of justice evolved overthis research, or did you have
one going in that you stillmaintain now in?
Speaker 1 (55:30):
that you still maintain now yeah, look, I've
always had my sense of justiceis respect, that you show
respect to everyone, regardlessof race, gender, religion.
(55:52):
You show respect, and I thinkthat's how I was brought up and
and I think this research hasjust reinforced that for me that
, um, there was no respecttowards these women.
Yes, it was a patriarchalsociety um, they knew it, they
grew up in it but there was norespect towards them.
(56:16):
And this is this is what I wantto do.
I want to give them the respectthat they deserve.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
What kind of feedback have you been receiving from,
because you've givenpresentations, I believe, before
our conversation.
What feedback?
Like surprise, or has therebeen any pushback, or just the
range?
Speaker 1 (56:42):
It's all been positive.
In fact, some of thepresentations I've given, you
know, with slideshows, I'veactually shown images of the
artworks and given them theside-by-side Like.
Here's six images three are bywomen, three are by men.
They're not captioned, but whodo you think painted which you
(57:07):
know?
Can you tell which is done by awoman and which is done by a
man?
No, we can't.
But gee, these images areamazing.
Um, you know why haven't weheard of this artist before?
A lot of people have made notesand tried to do their own
research on it oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I I wondered too, like, uh, you, when you were
talking about I think it wasperhaps in relation to Kandinsky
that this work by a womanlooked just as good or
comparable to, and I wondered ifthe first thought, if there was
going to be any retractors, itwould be well, you know, she was
(57:49):
copycatting this great artistin front of her, so it's just a
copy and that's not great art.
What do you say to that?
Yeah, well, that's not true.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
But this, this is, this is the discourse that that
I've been dealing with.
That that's the paradigm at themoment and I'm challenging that
paradigm.
I'm challenging the discoursebecause it's sexist.
It's inherently sexist.
All the discourse, whether it'sbeen written by men or women,
(58:27):
is sexist.
It still refers to male artistsbeing better than female
artists.
So I point out in my thesis thebasis of avant-gardism, that it
(58:47):
goes back to the Renaissance.
So it's nothing new.
If you try and express yourself, that is then an invention of
what you're doing.
Everyone is reinventingthemselves and it's not
something that's just for men,for male artists alone, it's an
(59:09):
equal thing.
So it's not something that'sjust for men, for male artists
alone, it's an equal thing.
So it's not a copycat.
You might be side by side withsomeone in art class and looking
at what they're doing andthey're looking at what you're
doing, but you're still doing it.
It's still your creation, yourinput.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
Well, thank you so much.
This has really been such astimulating conversation.
I wonder what are you doinggoing forward?
Are you continuing thisresearch in another avenue?
How is it progressing?
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Well, I hope to finish my thesis by mid-next
year and after that I will beconverting it to a book.
So that's a big project for me.
Yes, because it'll be the firstone written in English about
these women artists.
(01:00:07):
One thing I don't think I'vesaid before is that when you
hear the term male labour, it isnot relating to a group or a
movement.
It's a derogatory term that wasused against women, was used
(01:00:31):
against women.
Some of my research authors area bit confused and think that it
was a movement or it was just agroup of the number of women.
No, it wasn't, and this is whatI hope to explain in my book
and after I finish the book,which should take a little while
(01:00:51):
.
Um, one of the things I'd liketo do is do the conference
circuit so that I can explain topeople what our book's about
and and the lives of theseartists, and also edit wikipedia
, because I believe Wikipedia isreally underrated.
(01:01:12):
It's a good resource.
It's a resource I used at firstas a stepping stone to finding
more information, but there's alot of inaccuracies in it.
I'd like to spend some timeediting that, if I can, and
(01:01:35):
introducing new artists that arenot available.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
If you would.
The cover image that you sentme is so compelling and I would
love it if you could justdescribe the image and how you
put your input into it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yes, yes, well, that image is by Julie Walthorn.
She was an artist that I wasvery tempted to include in my 12
, but she's a little bit betterknown than some of the others
that I've chosen.
She did a lot of work,commissioned work for the
(01:02:11):
magazine Jugend, of which thatimage is on its cover.
I think it was September, Ican't remember the year.
I chose it because it's just anerythral sort of image of youth
, innocence, naivety, but yetthere's also in it a type of
(01:02:41):
strength that I that's what Ifeel from the woman being
portrayed.
Yet that strength has beenmuted, because not only do we
not know much about it, theyweren't able to really talk much
themselves.
They were muted during theirera.
(01:03:02):
Hence I put the black tapeacross the mouth because their
voice is being muted.
But that's really a powerfulimage for me, and it's also been
like the guiding icon that I'vebeen using throughout my thesis
.
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
There will be links in the show notes to learn more.
If you were intrigued by thispodcast, it would be much
appreciated if you could leave arating, a review and tag
Warfare of Art and Law podcast.
Until next time, this isStephanie Drotty bringing you
Warfare of Art and Law.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember injustice anywhere
(01:03:46):
is a threat to justiceEverywhere.
I believe, as an art historian, it's sort of my duty,
in a way, to do this, to makethe public understand that there
are female artists out therewho are just as good as male
artists.
There's no distinction, there'sno marginalization.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We're all the same marginalization, we're all the
same.
Welcome to Warfare of Art andLaw, the podcast that focuses on
how justice does or doesn'tplay out when art and law
overlap.
Hi everyone, it's Stephanie,and that was art historian
Sylvia Westubud.
What follows is a conversationwith Sylvia where she discusses
(00:44):
female artists from Germanmodernism and the derogatory
term that was used to labelthese female artists Mollweiber,
Sylvia Wastuba.
Welcome to Warfare of Art andLaw.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Absolutely so.
Would you give an overview ofyour background, your work and
what brought you to focus on theMalweiber?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Of course.
Well, I was born in Australiaof German parents, so my first
language was German, and this iswhere I have the relationship
with Germany, even though Iwasn't born there, and I've
always been interested in art.
But somehow life always got inthe way until 2011 to 2012, when
(01:45):
I went into art school and thatseemed to just open my eyes to
a different world because I wasintroduced to different genres
and movements and I reallybecame interested in art history
.
So to further that because Iwasn't going to set the world on
fire with my art, to further myknowledge, I decided well,
(02:10):
let's go to university.
So I enrolled as a mature agestudent, completed my Bachelor
of Arts, majoring in Art Historywith a distinction, and then I
went on to do my honours, whereI was awarded first class and
the honours subject wasGabrielle Mentor and the Modern
(02:33):
World, and it was about theartist Gabrielle Mentor, who is
better known as VasilyKandinsky's muse, lover,
girlfriend, rather than anartist in her own right.
So, researching her, Idiscovered the term Moldeba,
(02:54):
which then opened my eyes to theinjustice that these artists
were faced with and I thought Ihave to write about these women.
Artists in the past don't havevoices.
So I thought, as an arthistorian, that's what I need to
do.
I need to explain to the worldwhat they did and what they
(03:19):
achieved.
So that brought me to doing myPhD, which is called Malweiber
the Artists of German Modernism.
So that's where we are at themoment.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I just think it's so interesting that you ran across
that term and then you wereinspired by it.
I too ran across that term andwas so intrigued by this, like
I'd already known that thesewomen had faced such challenges
in their era.
But then to know that there wasa term around it.
(03:53):
So I wonder, maybe if we juststart with the term and what
your research unfolded with that, and then wherever you want to
take us, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, well, I do need to explain the term Malweber.
So if I translate it, it is Malis to paint and Weber is a
woman, but it's the familiarterm of woman In Imperial
Germany where this thesis is set.
At that time it was veryconservative and perhaps it
(04:29):
still is a little bit in Germanyat the moment, in that if you
speak to a woman, you and a man,you use the unfamiliar or the
polite term, whereas Weber issimilar to I don't know what it
would be in American, but inAustralia we would say Sheila's.
(04:50):
It's a derogatory term and atthat time it was actually a
swear word.
So it was aimed originally atdilettantes, amateur painters
who were just filling in timebefore they got married.
But then there came the seriouswomen artists who wanted to make
(05:13):
a career out of this.
Men saw them as competitioncoming into their art world.
So they kept going with thisderogatory phrase to try and put
them down in any way possible.
(05:34):
And this was covered also inmedia, in satirical journals, in
novels, in books, always thisreference back to Malvava,
linking her with a third sex.
And it was such a put down termthat these women, that was
(05:58):
another challenge.
They had to struggle past that,as well as many other obstacles
which we can discuss later ifyou wish.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And if you would kind of give a.
You've kind of mentioned thisis Imperial Germany, so what's
the timeframe we're in?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yep timeframe is 1871 to 1918, sorry, at the end of
World War I and that was a timeof great unsettling.
I suppose that conservativeGermany moving into modernism
(06:38):
changes with electricity, withthe women's movement.
There was all sorts of factorsinvolved in that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so 1918, do you see where after that point I
mean, there's a lot going on theBauhaus and lots of different
doors opening for women, eventhough they're still kind of
closed in many ways.
Once you got in the institution, like the Bauhaus, for example,
(07:09):
like what classes you could orcouldn't take, so does that term
kind of uh, fall out of vogue?
Uh, not that women ever thoughtit was in vogue, but like as
the use by men.
Did it fall out around 1918 ordid you see it lingering?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, yes, my research has shown that, like everything
changed with World War I, eventhe type of art that was being
produced was much more joyfuland adventurous, whereas art
created after World War I tendedto be more sombre and some of
(07:52):
it was disturbing, as in Germanexpressionism the second stage
but because female artists wereactually forbidden to enter art
academies until 1920.
That then was when the changesbegan and the term was not
(08:14):
really used after that.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What was the research process for you?
So you're in Australia.
Did you do this online or wereyou going into archives?
How did that work?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
yeah, well, that was a bit disappointing for me
because I started this in 2020,um, just when COVID hit and I
had planned to go to Germany todo research.
So, uh, of course, with theshutdown, it was very, very
difficult for me.
I had to do everything online.
(08:52):
Even some texts like hard copytexts from international
libraries I couldn't get becauselibraries didn't want to send
anything out in case it nevercame back again, which was the
case, I believe, in a lot ofcircumstances.
So, yes, mostly online.
It was difficult to research alot of archival things, but I
(09:13):
did my best with what I got andbecause of that, I also had to
change my strategy as I wasresearching and evolved the
thesis from the information thatI could actually find.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What was the shift then, and how did that impact
the final product of your thesis?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah Well, what I did with my research strategy was
to try and find as many names asI could of female artists.
That was the first thing I hadto do.
The final count and this is byno means complete is 1,134 names
(10:05):
.
So I had to access everydictionary lexicon that I could
possibly find and go througheach individual entry to see if
that artist was active inGermany or born in Germany, and
then take it from there.
So from that lot of names, Ihad to then do a long list, then
(10:32):
a short list and then the final12 artists that I've chosen.
And again, all of this was howmuch information could I find on
them?
So that was what it boiled downto.
If I could get sufficientinformation, I could view their
artworks, then I could talkabout them.
(10:53):
So I've got a final 12, and thedirection it's taken is that
I've regionalised the artists,because in Germany that time
there were main centres,artistic centres of Berlin,
munich and the Rhineland, whichencompassed Dusseldorf and
(11:16):
Cologne, and regionalising theartists has also sort of made
very important what type of artthey did, what genre.
They weren't really involved inmovements, but there was
(11:37):
impressionism and expressionisminvolved.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So, depending on which of those three regions,
you saw a specific genreemerging.
How did that work between thethree?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, funnily enough, berlin, because it was much
more traditional, realist, andthen it became impressionist.
There was problems where themale artists were starting to
(12:19):
succeed from the art academiesto form their own groups and
movements, the successions wherethey could do their own style
without being forced to dotraditional art.
So from there developedImpressionism, and it was not
(12:41):
French Impressionism, obviouslyit was German, which was
slightly different.
It was still en plein air, butit was perhaps not quite as
light-filled as what the Frenchwas.
French Impressionism was,whereas Munich was different
because it had a lot of Russianimmigrants and people from other
(13:05):
nations, even from America, whobrought with them new ideas and
vibes.
And this is where a lot ofexperimentation took place in
Munich, and that's what I wouldcall the centre of expressionism
, because there was a loosenessthere.
(13:25):
There was more opportunitiesfor women to get private tuition
, art training there, becausethey couldn't enter the
academies, and it was like itwas actually called the Paris of
Germany Munich, like what wasactually called the Paris of
Germany in Munich.
(13:46):
So it had that bohemianlifestyle that is sometimes what
an artist needs to be creative.
Now the Rhineland, if I finishoff with the three regions, was
again rather expressionistic,but it took it one step further
with the theme ofGesamtkunstwerk, which is like
(14:09):
the art of life, you know, artbeing life, or incorporating art
with life.
And they would move moretowards textiles, utilitarian
objects that were still works ofart, utilitarian objects that
were still works of art.
And because of their proximityto France, they were very much
(14:33):
inspired, I'd say, rather thaninfluenced, by what was
happening there.
So they were also making leapsand bounds in going forward with
modernism.
So the women artists had thesethree regions to go to, but many
(14:55):
had the opportunities to alsogo to Paris.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
So you said you started with just over 1,000.
Was it 1,034,?
You said yeah, and then younarrow it down to 12.
So what were the criteria?
And my first thought is howdifficult it was to find the art
by these women like any imagesthat still existed.
(15:20):
So was that your biggestcriteria, or how did that work?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
It was mainly finding information about their
education and what sort of artthey were doing.
Did they contribute to Germanmodernism?
That was the main criteria.
How did they contribute?
In which way?
How did they contribute, uh, inwhich way that?
(15:50):
Was there some new techniquethat they created?
Uh, were they at all?
God, were they experimenting?
But yes, the crux was, um, didthey contribute?
And obviously, was thereartworks available for me to
analyse?
Because in my thesis, that'sexactly what I do.
(16:11):
I show their artworks on theirmerit and actually compare them
with male artists of the sameera, and part of the thesis is
that art is not gendered so yousaw equal talent and skill.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It was equal, it was equal?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
yeah, it was equal.
And that's what was amazing forme to think that, yes, they've
contributed, but why are theyunknown now or little known?
You know, in the art world wemay remember Paula
Mollison-Becker or KatjaKollwitz, but nobody remembers
(16:59):
Augusta von Zitzewitz or MariaSloana, or even Charlotte
Berend-Corinth, who was the wifeof Lovis Corinth, especially
the ones that were married toartists.
You don't hear about them, youonly hear that they're the
artist's wife.
But they were on a levelplaying field.
(17:23):
But they were on a levelplaying field, and this is what
my thesis hopes to expose.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And I applaud you for that.
Thank you for doing this work.
I love and just want to hearmore, so tell me if you would.
Could you break down perhaps alittle as much as you care to
share, like a capsule about eachof the 12 that you chose and
you've kind of already alludedto a few of them, referencing
(17:53):
them just now but maybe justgive a taste for each artist's
work and what they contributedthat you found so compelling?
I'd love to do that, but howmuch time have we got you found
so compelling?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I'd love to do that.
But how much time have we got?
I've got as much time as youneed.
Okay, there's 12.
As we said, I've regionalizedthem.
So if I start off with Berlin,charlotte Berendt-Korinth was
married to the Germanimpressionist Lovis Korinth Now.
She met him at a very young age.
He's about 30 years older thanher.
(18:29):
She actually was a student athis private art school and he
became enamoured with her andover her lifetime his lifetime,
sorry he painted over 80paintings of her.
So she was his muse as well.
But she was also a verytalented artist and that's why
(18:50):
I'm thinking he might havemarried her, because she was
competition.
But she had family.
She still had to bring upchildren, found time for her art
, but she did her own own thingrather than just go the straight
line of impressionism like herhusband was doing.
(19:10):
She broached taboo subjects forthat time.
She was the first artist, maleor female, to actually depict
childbirth in a painting, and itwas not this Madonna type, it
was the gritty.
It was called Der SchwereStunde, the Difficult Hour of
(19:35):
Childbirth, and unfortunatelythis painting was destroyed in
World War II and there's just aphotograph of it that survives
and two oil studies.
But for her to do a subjectlike that and actually exhibit
it.
I've found well that that'svery inventive.
(20:00):
That's part of German modernismbreaking the boundaries and
trying new things.
And this is what she did.
She also, um, did graphics,lithograph graphic prints of um?
Um the theater people, um,erotic dancers.
(20:24):
She did some very erotic nakedphotos, or semi-naked photos,
sorry, graphics.
And again, that's not whatwomen were supposed to be
painting or creating art about.
But she was doing it with afemale gaze, not a male gaze,
(20:46):
and that is the big difference.
However, she ended up devotingher final years after the
husband died, in writing memoirsabout her life with him, and
she organised his catalogue,raison, and organised
(21:08):
exhibitions and just put all herlife into his memory.
So that is also anothercontribution to modernism,
because the world wouldn't knowso much about her husband if she
didn't do that, charlotte.
The next one, dora Hitz.
(21:28):
She's an older artist who wasable to get good training in the
days when there were academiesopen for women.
Most academies closed for womenin 1879.
So she had training.
(21:49):
She was actually asked toillustrate a book for the Queen
of Romania and theseillustrations the Queen then
wanted painted as murals in herpalace, which she also did.
But the good thing with Dora isshe was true to Germany and she
(22:15):
tried to get involved with manygroups and successions to help
women to be able to exhibit.
So not only was she anexcellent artist herself in the
forefront of Impressionism, butshe was there to help other
women.
(22:35):
Maria Slavona she's got a verysad tale, actually very talented
made her way from Berlin to toMunich, then to Paris, and in
Paris she led a very unusualbohemian lifestyle.
(22:58):
Two women and three men sharedan apartment in Paris and she
fell pregnant to one of the menand he left her soon after.
So if you can imagine, in 1891,I think, the child was born
being a single mother in Paris,unmarried.
(23:21):
She's got no money.
She has to try and supportherself.
So she's trying to sellpaintings in an art market that
favours men.
So she signs her name, mostlyjust her surname, so her work is
(23:44):
virtually anonymous, which is areal shame.
Anyway, as fortune had it, shemanaged to marry well enough to
go back to Germany, because shecouldn't go back with a child
unmarried.
She came back to Germany andwas lauded for her wonderful
(24:06):
impersonism and there are manyof her paintings in galleries in
Germany at the moment, whichI'm really happy about, and
they're actually on display,which is good.
Excuse me, augusta vonZisterwitz she's another
(24:27):
Impressionist.
She was famous for portraitureand she was in society.
She painted a lot of societypeople and also there in
galleries.
She was also writing inmagazines and her portraits that
(24:53):
she did of the society peopleappeared in these society
magazines, so at the time shewas well known in her lifetime.
Now, if we go to Munich, as Isaid, munich was the avant-garde
and we have a lot of I have twoartists there that weren't
(25:15):
German-born but they were activein Germany, and the first one's
Irma Bossi.
She was born in what is nowCroatia, was then part of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire, and shedid the breakthrough into
(25:41):
Expressionism, and her work isvery colourful, very similar to
the male artists ofExpressionism, such as Auguste
Marquis and Franz Marc and alsoVasily Kandinsky, and if you do
put their images side by sidethey are equal.
(26:03):
Again, not much is known abouther.
That's probably her own fault,because she didn't keep proper
records.
She actually lied about her age, trying to make herself younger
sometimes, but I managed tofind quite a bit of information
about her, which is good.
(26:23):
Elizabeth Epstein she was alsosimilar to Irma Bossi.
She broke through toExpressionism but she spent a
lot of time in France so shealso had a bit of Fauvism in her
(26:45):
works because she was veryfamiliar with Matisse being in
France.
She had a good network set upthere and she also contributed
to the Blue Rider group inMunich, which I also explain in
my thesis.
She introduced Robert Delaneyto Vasilija Kandinsky and he
(27:12):
became part of their exhibitionsand the group.
And again, that wouldn't havehappened if it wasn't for
Elizabeth Epstein.
Maria Frank-Marc is a very sad,has a very sad story, has a very
sad story.
She was from middle castebackground with very strict
(27:35):
parents who wanted to see herwell-married.
She wanted to do art.
She went to art school and sheactually studied and became an
art teacher to teach in highschools.
But she wanted to furtherherself in her career.
So she ended up going to Munichand she met by chance the
(28:03):
painter Franz Marc and fell inlove.
But it was a very torridrelationship and he ended up
marrying someone else.
Even though he said heprofessed his love to her.
Her parents would always bringher back to Berlin.
(28:23):
She went down to Munich.
Again.
It was a sad, sorry thing thathe married someone else, then
left this woman.
He and Maria lived in sin,which was really a bad thing to
do in that era, until hisdivorce was finally settled a
(28:48):
few years later and they couldthen eventually marry.
They had a wonderfulrelationship, by her memoirs,
and even though she actually hadmore art training than he, she
did take advice from him.
(29:09):
In certain ways their works seemvery similar.
I don't think one influencedthe other.
I don't believe in that sort ofinfluence because it's your
work.
You do what you want to do ifyou're an artist.
But unfortunately he was killedin World War I in action and
(29:29):
she never painted again.
After that she spent her lifeagain cataloguing all his works,
promoting him in exhibitions,in books, speaking with authors
about, doing biographies andagain putting him within the art
(29:52):
historical canon for inperpetuity, whereas her work has
never been seen.
So she ended up going to theBauhaus in the 20s and 30s and
she learnt weaving and that'swhat she did for the rest of her
(30:15):
life.
But it's very sad that shenever painted again.
She had some beautiful, veryexpressive paintings and then,
lastly, in Munich, is GabrielleMunter my favourite.
And then, lastly, in Munich, isGabrielle Munter, my favourite,
simply because she strove sohard to make the breakthrough
(30:38):
and she actually invented herown style of painting, her own
technique of painting, where shesimplified forms and she
actually created form withcolour and then put a black
outline around it and while itmight look naive, it was an
(31:00):
actual breakthrough in modernism.
Her works for me are veryimportant.
Her works for me are veryimportant.
Her contribution to modernism,as they were a social and
cultural commentary.
She was an outcast because shelived with Vasily Kandinsky
(31:23):
without being married, so shewas not accepted in polite
society.
She only had a very tightcircle of friends, so her
paintings were often studies ofsociety within her own realm and
that speaks a lot for how womenwere treated as being on the
(31:48):
outer, even though she was partof the Blue Rider group.
If they had meetings the maleartists would be together and
the female artists would be onthe outer.
She created the most importantcontribution, I believe.
The most important contribution, I believe, and I look forward
(32:18):
to showing all her works in mythesis.
The Rhineland, as I've said, wasa region of progress and I've
got four artists here whocontributed in different ways.
There was Elizabeth EdmundMackey, who was wife of August
Mackey, who was also a Germanexpressionist.
He also was killed in action inWorld War I and during his
(32:45):
lifetime she was also his muse.
He painted very I can'tremember now but it was over 100
paintings of her.
But the Gesamtkunstwerk of thisart and life was something that
(33:05):
involved the whole family,something that involved the
whole family.
So Elizabeth was not only museto her husband, she also, from
his designs, createdembroideries, created tapestries
(33:29):
that would be used to coverfurniture, to be put on
tabletops.
All these tactile things shedid, but no one knows she did it
.
So that for me also is notright.
(33:51):
She needs to be acknowledgedhere for the work that she's
done and, again, similar toMaria Frank-Marc, when her
husband, auguste, died, she alsowrote books, memoirs, her life
with him catalogued his works,made sure that there were
exhibitions there for his nameto be known, but in the process
(34:16):
her name wasn't known.
So again, this is her greatcontribution.
Ida Guhardi was a single womanwho didn't.
Heidi was a single woman whodidn't have the great family
fortune that most of the othersdid.
So she needed to get a patronto help her be educated, and she
(34:41):
did go to Paris and stayedthere for many years and in
Paris, like most of theseartists, when they went there
they opened up because it was adifferent environment and she
was a very good portraitist.
But she had to do it for money,to survive and, as an artist, I
(35:03):
think, stephanie, you canappreciate this as well.
If you're forced to dosomething creative but it's not
your style of creation, youbecome a little bit frustrated
and you want to do what you wantto do.
So she would go out and quicklysketch the Parisian nightlife.
She'd go to these dance hallsand bars, places where women
(35:28):
weren't supposed to go, placeswhere women weren't supposed to
go or proper women weren'tsupposed to go on their own, and
she would sketch the charactersthere, similar to what Dagar
used to do Go into these placesand just watch people watch and
just watch people watch.
(35:49):
So she did beautiful colouredpaintings of these nightlives
which weren't accepted back inGermany because it was regarded
as being too French.
And she would try to sell herworks to even the gallery in the
(36:09):
town where she was born and shewas so upset she wrote in
memoirs does an artist have todie before the gallery will buy
their paintings?
You know, like, as it turnedout, they did buy it after her
death.
Fifi Kreutzer is the youngestartist.
(36:30):
She was also married to anartist and she did many mediums
of painting drawings.
She did a lot of ink andwatercolour drawings.
Again, I've compared her withher husband and with others in
(36:53):
that era, male and females, andthey're equal.
She's made that contribution.
But one of her finest works wasan embroidered painting called
the Dragonslayer and it wasbased on, you know, st George
(37:14):
and the Dragon or Siegfried.
The Dragonslayer is a tale, afolk tale in Germany, and this
was a triptych that was quitelarge, over a metre wide, and it
was telling the story, the folktale, but instead of painting
(37:36):
she's embroidered it and it isan outstanding work.
I've never seen anything likeit.
I also have photos of that inmy thesis and that's something
that had never been done and Iconsider that a very good
contribution.
And my final artist, olgaOppenheimer, again, is not
(37:59):
really known.
She was also a painter andgraphic artist but her major
contribution to modernism wasthat she fortunately she had the
funds she created this club ofsorts and it was called the
Gerons Club.
(38:20):
It was a meeting space, it wasan exhibition space.
She held seminars space um, sheheld seminars, she organized
artists from france to come umand exhibit there, and, and
really she was at the forefrontof bringing french art to german
(38:42):
audiences.
Again, that was the proximity Iwas explaining that cologne
very close to France, so shecould do all of this.
She still created her own art,yes, but I think this work was
more important.
Unfortunately, world War I came,her brother was killed in
(39:03):
action.
She had a mental and nervousbreakdown, didn't paint again
and unfortunately ended up in amental and nervous breakdown.
Didn't paint again andunfortunately ended up in a
mental asylum until the NationalSocialists came in and took her
off and she was murdered.
(39:24):
But all of them, all my 12artists, have done solid
contributions and this is what Iwant to explain Give them the
voice that they didn't have nowin the 21st century.
And I've created, just going abit further, to tighten this up.
(39:47):
In my research, I researched asmany exhibitions as I could on
each artist and I've created aspreadsheet which I've attached
as annexures to my thesis.
My reason for doing this isthat if there's any other
scholars that want to pick up onthis, at least they've got the
(40:10):
information and perhaps witharchival research within Germany
or something they may be ableto do, further research on the
artists.
Unfortunately, I can only justlimit in my thesis what I've
actually said to you.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
The different available resources that you
culled from.
You've mentioned memoir once ormaybe twice, and then the
exhibition information.
Perhaps there were exhibitionpamphlets, things like that,
like diaries.
I was just curious, like therange of sources that you had to
(40:51):
go through to pull thisinformation.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yes, that's exactly right.
A lot of the exhibitioncatalogs, fortunately, have been
digitized.
I was able to locate some ofthose Others.
I managed to get hard copiesfrom libraries.
Actually, talking of exhibitioncatalogues, that seems to be
(41:19):
the only scholarly work whereI've discovered these artists.
There's never actually beenmonologues, written or journal
articles about these artists,it's just essays within
exhibition catalogues.
And I'm talking about now inthe 21st century as well.
(41:39):
But yes, I had to cover throughthose archival records.
Wikipedia was a good source.
That was my beginning source,but of course that's not
scholarly.
But it gave me names, it gaveme a direction to follow and
(42:05):
quite often I would findinformation through their
husbands if they were married toan artist.
But yes, it was difficult attimes.
So that's what I'm saying Icould only work with what
information I could find whatwere the.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Did you find certain websites that were especially
helpful, and you have theadvantage of speaking German, so
that was not an issue for you.
So were a lot of.
Whatever sites you found, werethey mostly in German or had
there been translations that youran across?
Speaker 1 (42:45):
no, not many translations.
Um, obviously Wikipedia willwill give you the translated.
It's in German and English, butthe archival records are in
German.
So there were sites, or thereare sites of artists, women,
artists, associations that haverecords going back to when they
(43:10):
first started 1860s I think itwas.
That's all in german, thearchival texts in german, so
really there's not much in theenglish-speaking language that
you can find on the male libel.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You referenced how the Blue Rider group functioned.
I was curious about just for amoment that how did you learn
the way they excluded women orkept them on the outside, as you
said, I believe?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Again from notes and diary notes.
Women were more inclined towrite diaries and notes and
poetry, whereas men tended towrite books.
And it's within those diarynotes or memoirs that the women
(44:15):
open up and they explain howthings really are.
So I've got um notes fromseveral of the women in the Blue
Rider group and they do explainthe dynamics of the group and
how the men were always incharge and the women were doing
(44:39):
the menial chores.
Like Luria, frank was known forthe best coffee.
She made the best coffee attheir meetings.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I'm just kind of surprised.
When you actually come across adiary and it has that kind of
information, I just feel likeyou found a goldmine and
wonderful that they I mean notthat that's good information,
that they were known for that asopposed to their work but the
(45:15):
fact that the diary survived,especially like two wars, and
their lack of notoriety, likethat's that they didn't get
pitched in the bin, like that'sjust amazing to me.
Did you feel that way when youwould run across them?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Definitely, especially with Gabrielle Mentor
.
She kept a lot of things.
She also kept a lot ofpaintings of artists of the Blue
Rider group that she kept safeduring World War II.
She kept them in the basementof her house in Bavaria to keep
(45:54):
them safe from bombings.
So the end of the war, she hadall of these paintings and she
thought, well, my life's almostat an end.
On her 80th birthday she gifteda lot of these paintings to a
local art gallery in Munichwhich has an extensive
(46:15):
collection of blue-riderpaintings.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Which gallery is it?
Or did you say museum?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, I think they call themselves a museum over
there a lot, the Lenbach Housein Munich.
So she did that and she alsohad like a rider that her
private papers and diaries andall that could not be made
(46:46):
public until 20 years after herdeath.
Don't know why she did that.
She was originally going tothrow them all away because she
was hurt so badly by Kandinskythat she just you know it's like
set a fire to the photos andstuff.
So it was only the gallerydirector of that museum at the
(47:13):
time who had become friendlywith her, that said, please
don't throw them away, but letme keep them or you keep them
and then, after you've died,we'll make them public, which is
how we've got to see them.
Various authors have taken theletters, the correspondence
(47:33):
between them and made books, andthat's where I found a lot of
information as well in theirletters.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Any other of the 12 letters or diaries that you were
able like.
I'm just fascinated by that.
So, like I'm just curious, wasit the same kind of thing for
others?
Speaker 1 (47:56):
uh, where it was, uh, at their death, they donated
them, as opposed to another modeof them being saved over these
years um, yes, a lot of thesewomen artists that I discuss
survived after World War II andthey kept all the letters of
(48:20):
correspondence between theirhusbands.
Like Elizabeth Edmund Mackey,she kept correspondence with her
that her husband wrote lettersfrom the front, as did friends
Mark with Maria Mark.
They kept their letters andthey just wrote about their
lives with them and it does makeyou feel like you were there,
(48:47):
you witnessed it, you're part ofit when you're reading these
memoirs.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, and also you had mentioned to me when we were
corresponding, about the Museumof the Lost Generation being a
factor in your research, and Ifind them to be such a wonderful
resource, so would you describe, like, how they factored into
(49:12):
your work?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, I think it was because I was trying to find out
why these artists were unknownand there seemed to be a gap
there.
After World War II, the artworld moved from Europe to
America, basically New York andit was very male-oriented and I
(49:45):
thought there's got to besomething more here within
Germany, that where these womenare part of some sort of
remembrance, and that's where Icame across this lost generation
or even stolen generation someof them are called where during
(50:09):
National Socialism in the 30sand throughout the Second World
War, these artists were regardedas degenerate and their works
degenerate and a lot of theirworks were destroyed and they
weren't allowed to paint anymoreand exhibit anymore.
And all of that's just gone,it's lost, it's never to be seen
(50:34):
again.
And that made me look.
For is there somebody that'sdoing something about this?
And that's when I discoveredthis museum, and it is actually
a private collection, I believe.
And it is actually a privatecollection, I believe.
And this gentleman that owns itthat's his in life, that's what
(50:59):
he wants to do, he wants tocontinue collecting as many
artworks as he can, and I thinkthat's very admirable.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
I agree.
Well, the work you're doing isvery admirable and I appreciate
you walking us through andgiving us as much as you can of
the background of these 12 women.
And what would you say toanyone who's wondering how is
(51:28):
this relevant today and tofuture generations?
Like, how do you see theimportance of preserving and
highlighting the work of thesewomen?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well, I've always believed that the past informs
the present, and I'm writingabout these artists from 120
years ago.
More Things have not reallychanged much for female artists
in the 21st century.
They're still not regarded asequal.
(52:03):
I'm thinking more of an arthistorical line here, in that
education teaches a male-centricart history.
There's not many females inthere, and we need to change
(52:24):
that.
We need to make the publicaware that there were equals in
the timeline of art history, andthe only way to do that is to
explain to the currentgeneration what the past
generation went through, so wedon't make the same mistakes now
(52:48):
.
And the only way we can do thatreally is through education,
because the school system, theuniversity system, as I said,
just concentrates on maleartists.
Curators and gallery directorscome out of the university
(53:08):
system and then that's all theyare.
They try and promote men ratherthan women.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
So I hope that answers your question yeah,
absolutely, and I guess, in thatsame vein, the idea of why it's
important to create discourseabout the social context of art.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yes, exactly along the same lines, because art is,
it is social, it is a commentaryon that era, when it was made.
For these artists that I'mdiscussing, it was that time,
(53:57):
that era.
What was important to them?
Some of them, because theydidn't have a lot of training,
they tended to do their ownenvironments, which was just the
genre, like a still life.
That was a commentary, yes, oftheir environment.
(54:21):
But when a male artist did asocial sorry, a still life, he
was an avant-garde.
A still life, he was anavant-garde.
So at that time, in that era,there was that social thing that
still needs to be discussed.
It's an equal thing and thecurrent generation is slowly
(54:46):
understanding that.
But contemporary artists, Imean.
But my thesis is based on thepast and this is where I want
the social justice to happen forthe artists of the past, which
(55:06):
will inform the present.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
That brings me to ask we've talked a lot about
instances of the injustices, anddo you have, or has, your
concept of justice evolved overthis research, or did you have
one going in that you stillmaintain now in?
Speaker 1 (55:30):
that you still maintain now yeah, look, I've
always had my sense of justiceis respect, that you show
respect to everyone, regardlessof race, gender, religion.
(55:52):
You show respect, and I thinkthat's how I was brought up and
and I think this research hasjust reinforced that for me that
, um, there was no respecttowards these women.
Yes, it was a patriarchalsociety um, they knew it, they
grew up in it but there was norespect towards them.
(56:16):
And this is this is what I wantto do.
I want to give them the respectthat they deserve.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
What kind of feedback have you been receiving from,
because you've givenpresentations, I believe, before
our conversation.
What feedback?
Like surprise, or has therebeen any pushback, or just the
range?
Speaker 1 (56:42):
It's all been positive.
In fact, some of thepresentations I've given, you
know, with slideshows, I'veactually shown images of the
artworks and given them theside-by-side Like.
Here's six images three are bywomen, three are by men.
They're not captioned, but whodo you think painted which you
(57:07):
know?
Can you tell which is done by awoman and which is done by a
man?
No, we can't.
But gee, these images areamazing.
Um, you know why haven't weheard of this artist before?
A lot of people have made notesand tried to do their own
research on it oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I I wondered too, like, uh, you, when you were
talking about I think it wasperhaps in relation to Kandinsky
that this work by a womanlooked just as good or
comparable to, and I wondered ifthe first thought, if there was
going to be any retractors, itwould be well, you know, she was
(57:49):
copycatting this great artistin front of her, so it's just a
copy and that's not great art.
What do you say to that?
Yeah, well, that's not true.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
But this, this is, this is the discourse that that
I've been dealing with.
That that's the paradigm at themoment and I'm challenging that
paradigm.
I'm challenging the discoursebecause it's sexist.
It's inherently sexist.
All the discourse, whether it'sbeen written by men or women,
(58:27):
is sexist.
It still refers to male artistsbeing better than female
artists.
So I point out in my thesis thebasis of avant-gardism, that it
(58:47):
goes back to the Renaissance.
So it's nothing new.
If you try and express yourself, that is then an invention of
what you're doing.
Everyone is reinventingthemselves and it's not
something that's just for men,for male artists alone, it's an
(59:09):
equal thing.
So it's not something that'sjust for men, for male artists
alone, it's an equal thing.
So it's not a copycat.
You might be side by side withsomeone in art class and looking
at what they're doing andthey're looking at what you're
doing, but you're still doing it.
It's still your creation, yourinput.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
Well, thank you so much.
This has really been such astimulating conversation.
I wonder what are you doinggoing forward?
Are you continuing thisresearch in another avenue?
How is it progressing?
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Well, I hope to finish my thesis by mid-next
year and after that I will beconverting it to a book.
So that's a big project for me.
Yes, because it'll be the firstone written in English about
these women artists.
(01:00:07):
One thing I don't think I'vesaid before is that when you
hear the term male labour, it isnot relating to a group or a
movement.
It's a derogatory term that wasused against women, was used
(01:00:31):
against women.
Some of my research authors area bit confused and think that it
was a movement or it was just agroup of the number of women.
No, it wasn't, and this is whatI hope to explain in my book
and after I finish the book,which should take a little while
(01:00:51):
.
Um, one of the things I'd liketo do is do the conference
circuit so that I can explain topeople what our book's about
and and the lives of theseartists, and also edit wikipedia
, because I believe Wikipedia isreally underrated.
(01:01:12):
It's a good resource.
It's a resource I used at firstas a stepping stone to finding
more information, but there's alot of inaccuracies in it.
I'd like to spend some timeediting that, if I can, and
(01:01:35):
introducing new artists that arenot available.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
If you would.
The cover image that you sentme is so compelling and I would
love it if you could justdescribe the image and how you
put your input into it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yes, yes, well, that image is by Julie Walthorn.
She was an artist that I wasvery tempted to include in my 12
, but she's a little bit betterknown than some of the others
that I've chosen.
She did a lot of work,commissioned work for the
(01:02:11):
magazine Jugend, of which thatimage is on its cover.
I think it was September, Ican't remember the year.
I chose it because it's just anerythral sort of image of youth
, innocence, naivety, but yetthere's also in it a type of
(01:02:41):
strength that I that's what Ifeel from the woman being
portrayed.
Yet that strength has beenmuted, because not only do we
not know much about it, theyweren't able to really talk much
themselves.
They were muted during theirera.
(01:03:02):
Hence I put the black tapeacross the mouth because their
voice is being muted.
But that's really a powerfulimage for me, and it's also been
like the guiding icon that I'vebeen using throughout my thesis
.
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
There will be links in the show notes to learn more.
If you were intrigued by thispodcast, it would be much
appreciated if you could leave arating, a review and tag
Warfare of Art and Law podcast.
Until next time, this isStephanie Drotty bringing you
Warfare of Art and Law.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember injustice anywhere
(01:03:46):
is a threat to justiceEverywhere.
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