To learn more, please visit Father Harmon's site.
Show notes:
1:15 Harmon’s background and work as priest since 2008
2:10 teaching fine arts and being a pastoral resource at Loyola University
3:00 his work in the arts
8:20 history of art in Jesuit community
12:00 Daniel Segers, Jesuit Priest and artist
12:30 Harmon’s process as a painter in light of being a ‘work of service’
16:00 Harmon’s painting from pilgrimage through Spain
17:30 students’ responses
19:15 his attendance at New York Academy of Art
23:30 Jerry Alonzo: how to communicate through your art
26:45 Pope Benedict XVI’s Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate
28:20 definition of ‘sacred art’
30:30 seeking social justice through art
32:00 his work in Brownsville, TX connected to his art
33:00 his series of Catholic objects
35:30 his balance of time
37:25 Alan Robertshaw’s comments about all art being sacred
42:10 Tolkien and Flannery O’Connor on religious imagination
44:00 incorporating Catholic objects into his work
46:50 Emily Gould - spiritual impact of artwork/architecture/nature
49:15 Jarnick Vitters - importance of the physical objects to Harmon’s faith
51:00 Alan Robertshaw - subjective importance of objects
53:30 Yelena Khajekian - art as a sacred endeavor
54:40 Nnebundo Obi - interest in hearing about priest’s pursuit of other vocations
Please share your comments and/or questions at stephanie@warfareofartandlaw.com
Music by Toulme.
To hear more episodes, please visit Warfare of Art and Law podcast's website.
To leave questions or comments about this or other episodes of the podcast and/or for information about joining the 2ND Saturday discussion on art, culture and justice, please message me at stephanie@warfareofartandlaw.com.
Thanks so much for listening!
© Stephanie Drawdy [2025]
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I think that's what art really can do can
change people's hearts.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Warfare of Art and Law, the podcast that
focuses on how justice does ordoesn't play out when art and
law overlap.
Hi everyone, it's Stephanie andthat was Jesuit priest and
artist, Father Jonathan Harmon,from a recent Second Saturday
Art and Justice online gathering.
(00:28):
What follows is a recordingfrom that gathering, during
which Father Harmon shares abouthis background, his decision to
earn a master's at the New YorkAcademy of Art and his current
position teaching art at LoyolaUniversity.
And his current positionteaching art at Loyola
University.
We also touch on a range ofother topics, from the
(00:49):
background of art in the churchto Fr Harmon's thoughts on
broadening the definition ofsacred art.
Fr Jonathan Harmon, welcome toWarfare of Art and Law.
And Second Saturday.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
My pleasure.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Would you give an overview of your various fields
of work and your background, howyou came into those?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Sure, so I am a Jesuit priest, a Catholic Jesuit
priest, which means I belong toa religious order, the Society
of Jesus.
I belong to a religious order,the Society of Jesus.
I grew up in East Texas, not avery Catholic part of the
country, so that was still, youknow, sort of a you know here or
(01:37):
there way to live growing up.
But joined in 2008 and haveworked in a lot of different
areas sort of volunteering andhave worked in a lot of
different areas, sort ofvolunteering and even before I
was a priest, a part of what theJesuit idea is that we are
constantly at work, and so Ispent a number of years teaching
full time, as well, as, youknow, summers here and there
(02:04):
doing different works of serviceyou could say all around.
So all of that really has kindof built up to me.
Right now I'm teaching full-timeat Loyola University in Chicago
.
I teach fine arts, drawing andpainting, as well as my priestly
ministries.
I offer mass and do things likethat around campus.
So it really is an interestingrole being at a Jesuit school as
(02:26):
a Jesuit priest and as ateacher.
So I have sort of this dualrole as not just a professor but
also sort of a pastoralresource for our students here,
both Catholic and non-Catholic.
That's one of the things that Ireally like about being at a
Catholic school is that it's notsort of taboo to talk about
spiritual things and be somebodythat can talk to when crisis
(02:49):
inevitably comes up.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The arts for you.
What was the seed where thatbegan?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, so I grew up in an artistic household.
My father is a goldsmith bytrade, my grandfather is a
watchmaker, so I grew up goingto trade fairs and things like
that.
So it's always sort of been apart of my life.
I was always drawing, I wasalways doodling, never really
(03:17):
found a real focus as a child.
I don't know if anybody elsehas had this same thing happen
to them, but I was told at avery young anybody else has had
this the same thing happen tothem.
But you know, I was told at avery young age that I had this
thing called talent, which meantthat I didn't have to really
work at developing skills.
So I didn't and it just kind of, you know, petered out.
Before I became a Jesuit I wasdoing junior college in where I
(03:40):
grew up in Tyler, texas, and Istudied graphic design.
I didn't actually finish thatdegree but I studied it for a
while and that was sort of myintroduction to sort of a
professional working art Veryquickly.
Part of the reason why I didn'tfinish was very quickly.
I realized that I was moreinterested in the artistic side
rather than the design side andso I started getting into.
(04:01):
You know, this was 2003,.
So very early days of digitalpainting and Photoshop becoming
much more than just photomanipulation.
So I was very intrigued by thatand so I sort of worked through
that.
Funnily enough, when I didenter the Jesuits in 2008, I
(04:21):
didn't take any of my digitalart stuff with me I didn't think
that priests did that kind ofthing just from my own ignorance
.
And so I left it behind.
And then, and as I said, when Iwas teaching high school full
time, I was asked they had alongtime art teacher retire and
they know that I had taken someof these courses at junior
college.
They're like we need this plugto be filled just until we hire
(04:44):
a full-time.
So can you teach this basicintroductory drawing class?
I said, yeah, sure, it'd be fun.
And at the same time I had beengiven this iPad for the first
time ever.
I've evolved poverty, so I hadnever really had an iPad.
I entered right when iPhoneswere kind of becoming a thing,
so I'd never even really had asmartphone before this.
(05:06):
And so that's when I startedgetting more into digital art,
sort of proper.
And that was right around thesame time that this little
unknown app at the time,procreate, had come out, and so
I was able to sort of hop onthat and really incorporated a
lot of that into, yeah, into myown teaching and had the kit
(05:26):
because all of the kids hadtheir own iPad.
So I was like, if there's someway that we could help them be a
little bit more creative andplay fewer games, seemed like
that could have been a win.
So I was sort of an earlyadopter of this iPad thing
before Apple Pencil, you know,before all that stuff came out
and started doing some paintingson my own.
(05:47):
That was really the primary waythat I was creating art for a
number of years, strictly iPad.
I'd pretty much given updrawing on paper and I'd never
really painted before, and sothis was sort of, yeah, what I
was doing.
For a long time, really upuntil I went to the New York
Academy of Art, I had been doing, again, primarily digital.
(06:08):
I had taken a few.
When I was doing my theologystudies in Berkeley, california,
I had taken a few courses in orlike seminar things, workshops
in acrylic and oil painting justas sort of dipping my toes into
in acrylic and oil painting,just as sort of dipping my toes
into, yeah, just to seeing whatthat was like I'd noticed there
were a lot of traditionalpainters that could just sort of
(06:29):
dip into the iPad world andmake really amazing paintings,
but I'd noticed that it was alot more difficult to go the
other way A lot of digitalpainters having a hard time
going into traditional media.
So it seemed like there wassomething, this thing that we
call fundamentals, foundations.
So I decided that, in order tomake my digital stuff better, I
(06:49):
needed to learn, you know, sortof a more physical, concrete
method of you know what docolors mean?
And so that was my first dipinto, yeah, sort of traditional
media.
And then, probably the next yearwas what was that?
2018, when the Notre DameCathedral caught fire, and I
(07:11):
remember thinking to myself man,had that fire been much worse?
There's really not any way thatwe could replace the artworks
that could have been lost, thatcould have been lost.
And so I remember that wasreally the first time when I
thought maybe I should take thisa little further and sort of
pursue it as a more sort of adedicated ministry opportunity.
(07:33):
Really, you know, because thereis such a long tradition of art
in not only in the Society ofJesus, but the Catholic Church
at large, I mean, our historykind of is the history of art,
and so there's great foundations, there's great support there
and, you know, there are anumber of Jesuits that are
involved in the arts, one wherethey're mostly in teaching.
(07:54):
There are a few practicingartists out there.
But anyway, yeah, I thoughtthat that was sort of the
catalyst for my desire to takethis as a more, yeah, a more
concerted effort.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
A couple of points that you made.
I want to circle back to One ofthem that you just referenced
was the history of art in theJesuit community and we were
chatting briefly before weofficially started the call
about that.
Could you kind of recap thatand give an overview for
everyone?
And, as always, if anyone hasquestions, please feel free to
(08:30):
jump in as well.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yes, so it's a long history.
We've been around for about 500years, so we won't be able to
get to everything, but early onso we were kind of founded.
A lot of people will say thatthe Jesuits were founded as a
counter-reformation movement andthat's not technically true.
St Ignatius the founder sawsort of the corruption of the
(08:55):
day.
You know, there really wasn't amethod of sort of a formal
structure for training newpriests, and so he wanted to
change that.
Basically he wanted to changethe church instead of.
You know where Martin Lutherdecided to break away and do his
(09:16):
own thing, st Ignatius decidedthat he was going to sort of
work within the structure,correct as it was, and try to
bring about change that way.
And funnily enough, one of theways in which that happened very
early on within his own lifewas sort of the promotion of the
arts.
You know, a very sort of alow-hanging fruit was if people
(09:37):
are somewhat illiterate, there'snot a lot of reading, then we
could use pictures, and so thesociety of Jesus from a very uh,
from very early became sort ofuh, benefactors of of artists,
and then some of the great artsof the renaissance were
commissioned by the Jesuits,from Rubens to Bernini.
Um, you know, some of the earlyJesuits themselves were talking
(10:00):
about this.
There's a brother named AndreaPozzo who I recommend everybody
just kind of look up on theirown time.
The church of the Gesù in Rome,there's this great, and in San
Ignacio is the other one, thesegreat ceilings where there's a
lot of trompe l'oeil effectsgoing on.
There's a lot of sort ofperspectival working with the
(10:22):
architecture, sort of developingthis idea of the Italian
Baroque, romanesque and Baroqueart movements, really sort of
centered around these new ideasthat the Jesuits were kind of
working with.
So, yeah, you've got these twosort of approaches right.
You've got we're building theseimmense churches that are
(10:43):
literally, you know, you look upand it's leading you into
heaven, you know, up into thesky, but also a very practical
effect that they're taking thesewoodcuts primarily, and these
different artifacts and thingsmusic out into the mission
(11:25):
no-transcript, in which we canuse sort of cultural images and
iconography and sounds and sortof meld them with a more, I
guess, what we'd call right nowa Baroque sense.
So you can still hearrecordings of sort of the South
American operas that weredeveloped, that have very sort
(11:49):
of traditional melodies and suchas well as sort of an Italian
flair.
Yeah, kind of got off a littleoff track there, but it's just.
Yeah, there's a long history ofworking with the arts and
having artists work with thechurch, of working with the arts
and having artists work withthe church.
Another great Jesuit painterhis name is Daniel Sagers, of
the Northern sort of Flemishschool.
(12:11):
He was a student of Jan BruegelI can't remember if he was the
elder or not but became one ofthe top floral painters of that
area.
A lot of cool stuff withJesuits in the arts and really
all over the world, not justEuropean centric.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, the imagery that you use and your process,
like how have you seen or whatis your thought process when
you're putting together worksnow with the idea of having it
as a work of service.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So my university, loyolaChicago, does not have a.
We don't have an MFA programand we don't really have a BFA
program, and so a lot of whatI'm working on professionally is
teaching non-artists you know,future doctors and lawyers and
engineers why they should careabout art, why they should care
(13:10):
about beautiful things, beautyin the world, and that has
really sort of taken hold in myown work.
And so I for okay, let me backup a little further.
Growing up, I didn't reallylike a lot of contemporary and
modern religious art.
(13:31):
It just seemed kind of bad,sort of saccharine and sort of
kitschy, and so in fact I wassort of hesitant to even get
involved in the arts because Ithought that that was all that
there was.
You know, we had this greathistory, we got this great sort
of paintings of the past, butyou know, thinking that that was
just had to stay there, and sowhat I?
(13:53):
What I try to do right now isWell, ok, so there's sort of two
, two branches of this.
A lot of my work is sort oftrying to deal with this idea of
the tension between the sacredand the secular.
I think it's a fault of thereligious imagination, that we
haven't done a very good job ofbroadening our view and
(14:16):
recognizing beauty in the world,wherever it is.
I made this piece a long timeago where I photoshopped a
picture of Jesus over a sky,over the sun, and I called that
the religious art.
All you have to do is tape apicture of Jesus to it and call
it and that's what makes it goodbut recognizing.
(14:39):
So primarily in my work rightnow, I paint a lot of trees, I
paint a lot of portraiture.
(15:05):
I'm looking for encounters,experiences that people have,
ways in which we can have acommon, a primal symbol that
transcends religious ideologiesor what have you and goes down
to a deeper truth.
And so, basically, what that'strying to do, and why I'm
connecting it back to my work atthe university, is really I'm
trying to do, and why I'mconnecting it back to my work at
(15:26):
the university is really I'mtrying to open conversation,
open our eyes, so that we canactually see the world, see the
goodness in the world.
You know, through the muck,through all the things that are
trying to divide us right now.
So I don't really use a lot of,you know, religious imagery,
iconography, a lot of religiousimagery, iconography.
I'm trying to find somethingthat is very religious, deeply
(15:53):
religious, without sort ofslapping you over the head with
it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, one of the images that you sent me was of a
farm animal.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
A cow.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So for that, as an example of what you're talking
about.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, so that is.
It was actually a photo I tookwhen I was in Spain doing a
pilgrimage.
So St Ignatius is from the northof Spain, the Basque country,
and so we have this pilgrimagethat basically goes from the
north down into Barcelona, andso I was fortunate enough a few
summers ago to sort of walk thatpath, and it's a beautiful
(16:31):
country and really quite movingto do that, similar to the
Camino Santiago, which hasbecome more popular in recent
years.
But anyway, so this was amoment that I had.
I was just again sort ofenjoying the beauty of creation,
the beauty of the world, andsaw this cow just kind of
lounging around and was reallymoved by.
(16:52):
I was moved by a number ofthings the light and that and
that, the way that it was, sortof that it also was creating,
not creating but enjoyingcreation, in a sense, just sort
of existing, being content, andso with that one I was trying to
(17:13):
capture again these very realand explicit religious themes of
solemnity, of sort of atranscendent moment of being, a
sublimity.
Yeah, in sort of anon-traditional way.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What are the responses from the students that
you were referencing earlierwhen you're seeking to engage
them in this way?
How is that?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
They're very open.
You know it's fun to just say,look, this isn't.
You know, because every non-artstudent and some art students
think that they need to be atthe master level on day one and
my job is to say look, I'm notexpecting any of you to be able
to draw well.
In a sense, that's my job.
(17:59):
I need to help you to be ableto draw well, help you to be
able to draw well, but from dayone I really challenge and
stress the importance of seeing,of just taking a moment, stop
what you're doing, put the phonedown and look at the world.
Right.
That's, ultimately, what thepractice of drawing is, is close
observation.
And again, just sort of as anaside, I think that's why I'm so
(18:24):
drawn to figurative work isbecause, again, this deeply
religious idea of what we wouldcall the incarnation, god
becoming human being, to deeplyobserve and to critically
observe that sort of religiousreality for me is so moving that
you know, to think that wecould ever exhaust the beauty of
(18:46):
the figure just seemsridiculous to me, because
there's so much complexity, somuch individuality that, yeah,
it's so compelling.
So, just this process of seeingand when you talk about it in
those ways, I find students tobe very open to it, that it's
not about this thing or theother, it's just look and
(19:07):
appreciate.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Going to your decision to attend and graduate
from the New York Academy ofFine Art.
Would you describe your processin making that decision and
what your takeaways from yourtime there were?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah.
So it's funny, a lot of peopleare surprised when they find out
that I'm a priest and an artist, that I went to art school.
It's actually a pretty commonpractice for Jesuits in
particular to pursue higherdegrees after our ordination,
after we become priests.
Most of the time it's guysdoing PhDs in you know what you
(19:43):
consider the, what you wouldexpect right, philosophy,
theology, that kind of thing.
Junkoots have always been sortof a more diverse group.
You know we have lawyers anddoctors and just a lot of
different.
You know, I guess what youcould call professional
endeavors.
A lot of the time these areguys that had those degrees
before coming to join.
(20:04):
Sometimes that comes up whilewe're in formation.
So me going to get an artdegree in itself wasn't unique.
What was unique was the artdegree.
You know it was difficult.
I didn't know what sort ofsupport I would get because it
is sort of a non-traditionalapproach to post-ordination
(20:24):
studies and you know, just likemost parents out there with a
kid that wants to go to artschool, it's like well, what are
you going to do with that?
How are you going to make?
How are you going to make money?
You know, fortunately I don'thave to worry too much about
that particular problem, whichis a huge grace and something
(20:45):
that I do not take for granted,but it really was.
I just felt so compelled tolearn.
Really, my desire to go to theacademy was so that I could
learn how to do this well, Ijust needed the skills to draw
well and to paint well.
You know, I had sort of an ideain my mind.
(21:07):
It really wasn't clear if I wasgoing to, you know, pursue
teaching, or if I was going topursue a more active working
artist path.
It wasn't.
I wasn't clear if I really evenwanted to get into religious.
You know what we'd call sacredart.
I'm kind of leaning more inthat direction now.
But also you know what we'dcall sacred art.
(21:27):
I'm kind of leaning more inthat direction now.
But also, you know, I don'twant to just limit myself to
religious work, because I dofeel very strongly about, again,
that tension between the sacredand the secular, that we need
to open our eyes to a broaderartistic language and a broader
artistic imagination really, andjust sort of again, this narrow
(21:49):
idea of what is religious.
So that's kind of why I wantedto go to the academy just to get
the skills, to get thetechniques, to get those
foundations and fundamentals.
What I was really surprised bythere was how open everybody was
.
I was kind of afraid, in fact,to even mention that I was a
priest going to art school allthe stereotypes you can imagine
(22:13):
Then you know, stereotypes existfor a reason, but it was
incredibly.
Yeah, they were incrediblysupportive, I think partly
because I was, I didn't wear mypre-shirt and they kind of got
to know me as a person beforethey found out it's like, oh,
that's weird, but you know,whatever.
And I think the fact that theAcademy is more sort of it's a
(22:35):
figurative art school, so it is.
We are sort of more rooted inthings like the Renaissance and
neoclassical imagery, so therewas sort of a maybe not an
understanding, but like whenyou're sitting in those, in that
kind of iconography and, yeah,that mode of existing, there's
(22:56):
not as much of a sort of apushback against religious
religiosity and such.
Yeah, it was a really beautifultime.
I love my years there.
I made some really greatfriends, um, and I think it did
equip me, um with a better, abetter, uh skill set to to
(23:19):
pursue really and not let my.
What I really didn't want tohave happen was have my skills
inhibit my imagination, and Ithink that they did a really
great job in sort of preparingme for that.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Hey Father, this is Jerry Howdy.
Hi.
My very vague question is youmentioned a little earlier about
how the Jesuits were using, youknow, art as a way to resolve
conflict or to move from point Ato B as a tool, and you've
(24:02):
mentioned that that's importantto you to communicate and to
have others see that, the beautyand the sublimity of what's out
there.
How do you communicate that?
I get step one get out and lookand see and paint or do what it
(24:28):
is you do.
How does that get beyond thatstudent who is with you and
you're talking about it?
Is it just one by one, by one?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Yeah, I don't know that there'snecessarily a concrete
methodology of what happens next.
You know, I think there is sortof that.
In a sense, it has to be rightthat that personal contact is,
(25:04):
you know, this engagement withanother person, um, that if, if,
if, you know, if this wholepractice doesn't go beyond, you
know, bringing at least oneother person together so that
you can have that, whether it bea conversation or even just
that moment where you'restanding there.
I think it was in one of thejournals of Delacroix said that
(25:27):
as soon as you have a group ofpeople in front of a piece, as
soon as somebody speaks, thatmoment is broken.
You're thinking about the thinginstead of being with the thing
.
Yeah, I think it really isabout, you know.
Okay, so my religious languagewould be to change somebody's
heart, right, this metanoia, toturn around, to understand a
(25:49):
difference of existing, adifferent way of existing.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
This is a question that I, you know.
I struggle with a lot.
I do sculpture and my careerwas in law, as I think most of
the people here are, and I makea lot of work that is law and
(26:14):
law-themed and things that I seegoing astray, but it's kind of
like I'm making it for myself.
I don't have that student infront of me.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
To talk it through, help me refine my ideas and also
to pass it on to somebody else.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So there's this really wonderful encyclical by
Pope Benedict XVI called Caritasin Veritate, truth and Charity,
and he talks about justice andcharity as being sort of two
sides of the same coin, and whatI love about the way that he
talks about it is that you can'thave justice without charity
and you can't have charitywithout justice, because justice
(27:02):
, as he says it at least, isgiving to somebody what belongs
to them.
Right, it's returning personhood, effectively individuality.
Charity, then, is giving tosomebody what is mine, and I
can't give of what is mine untilwe return to a person what is
theirs, and I find that is thecreative act I'm giving of
(27:23):
myself, right, I'm pouring outmy desires, my emotions, my
ideas, and so I haven't reallythought this through too much.
I'm kind of coming up with anidea right now of what does that
look like in order to give ofmyself.
How is that work of justicethen, in the work being
(27:46):
developed, how am I helpingpeople sort of receive that idea
?
I don't know that it works thatway in particular, but, yeah,
that giving of oneself, I think,is a crucial step that artists,
sort of naturally, are engagedwith, and somebody that works in
(28:07):
law, I think, in particular, isthat is actively working
through this idea of justice andgiving to somebody.
There's an interestingconnection there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
This idea of justice and giving to somebody.
There's an interestingconnection there.
I was curious about the termsacred art that you used earlier
and how that's defined andwhether it's in a state of flux,
like even with the process,that you have to broaden perhaps
the definition of that.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, it is something that I think about a lot,
something that I would like todo.
There are.
So, in sort of the religiousworld, there's a number of
categories, for better or forworse.
So there's what we would callliturgical art, the things that
go into churches, that arespecifically made and designed
(28:53):
for the act of worship, whichwould fall under this category
of sacred art.
But I would define so sort ofI'm going to put that aside you
know, the paintings that I makeI don't think would really fit
in a church, just because that's, that's the whole other thing.
Yeah, I really would like tobroaden how we understand Sort
(29:20):
of my cheeky approach to this isto say that there really is no
secular art.
It's all sacred.
We're all engaging with a deepagain I've said this before a
deep truth of who we are ashuman beings, of how we are
connected to the world, and thatthat is sacred.
Um, so, yeah, this, my wholeprocess is just try to say look
(29:43):
there's, you know we havebeautiful architecture, we have
beautiful nature, you know wehave beautiful people.
Um, and again, I'm not definingbeauty as just sort of you know
, airbrushed and you know, yeah,whatever that is, but like true
, true humanity, like realpeople.
That's beautiful, and all ofour bumps and bruises is to say
(30:12):
look, this is a sacred thingthat we do as artists, whether
that's explicitly Christian,whether that's explicitly not
Christian, as long as you'reengaging with the world and
people.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I think there's a real beauty there.
I think what I'm taking awayand correct me if I'm wrong that
all of that is wrapped up inthis goal of seeking a social
justice.
All of that is wrapped up inthis goal of seeking a social
justice.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, I mean again.
You know I very much believethat art changes hearts, it
opens people's eyes to thereality of humanity.
You know, we, I think too.
You know this is not a newissue, but just with different
effects.
You know, this problem ofsocial media, that we're all
(30:57):
sort of up in everybody'sbusiness all the time, that we
can't just take a moment andstop, you know, touch the grass,
as the kids are saying, and Ithink that's something that art
truly, truly can do.
You know, it just makes youstop and look and maybe even
(31:18):
have a conversation withsomebody, instead of talking
through filters and such.
And I can't, yeah, I reallycan't think of.
There are specific ways in whichwe can promote justice, and
(31:52):
actually that's what I loveabout being part of a religious
community, part of the CatholicChurch, is that you know, in a
sense I don't have to put all ofthat weight onto my shoulders,
because there's so manywonderful things, from Catholic
charities to Jesuit refugeeservices, there's a lot of work
that's being done in the churchto help the physical problems of
the world and a lot of thesuffering that's going on in the
world, and I can, in a sense,be a part of that and go.
I was just down a few summersago.
I was down.
We just started this newministry down on the border in
Brownsville of Texas and Mexico,which is kind of a big crisis
(32:17):
area right now, and sort of justbeing with people, going and
talking to people, being in.
You know, that 100% informs theway that I see when I, when I'm
painting a portrait, right, I'mthinking about all of those,
the poor and the suffering andthe put down.
Um, yeah, and to you know,hopefully so that that there is
(32:39):
still good, there is stillbeauty, there is still something
, there is still light in theworld, even though so much is is
dark.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
With experiences like what you just referenced, are
you calling uh from what you'reseeing to then go back to the
studio and create work Portraitsyou mentioned like would you do
you?
What is your process with that?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So right now, maybe contradicting what I've been
talking about so far, but rightnow I'm looking at developing a
series of like Catholic objects,like weird things that if
you're not sort of in the circle, you don't you look at it, it's
just like, well, that's a weird.
Why would you have that littlebit of bone or that weird gold?
You know thing?
(33:25):
Um, I, you know I love thoselittle, those little knickknacks
, and you know, in a sense theyI shouldn't call them
knickknacks some of them arelike sacred vessels and things
like that.
But but so I'd started paintingsome of them and noticed there
was just something wasn't quitesitting like, it wasn't moving
me as much as I hoped that theywere.
Like, I love these objects, Ilove looking at these beautiful
(33:47):
objects and I love sort of theinteraction of them in whether
it's in sacred worship or goingout into the world.
And what I realized was whatwas lacking was the figure, was
a person, and so I startedincorporating hands into these.
You know, for example, achalice is being given.
When I have sacred oils thatI'm anointing the sick right,
there's that physical, there'sthat touch, and so that's sort
(34:11):
of what I'm bringing in when I'mthinking about how do I, how do
I take these sort of ideas thatI've got lofty and concretize
them, make them, make it aboutthis, this moment where you're
interacting with another personand sort of developing this idea
of what that means in your own,in your own, the viewer's
(34:33):
imagination Does that make?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
yeah, yeah, yeah, and so for going forward.
Like the projects that you seeyourself doing, they would be
involved around those objectsyeah, for the foreseeable future
, I think I, I mean, I stilllove painting trees.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
it's just kind of a thing that I like.
I don't know if it's somethingthat other people would like,
but I find it to be sort of ayou know, excuse the pun a
grounding effort.
It helps me to sort of feellike here I am and this is the
spot, this is the place where Iexist and where I find beauty in
(35:19):
the world.
Um, so yeah, I'm I'm constantlysort of working on a couple of
different uh uh projects likethat.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
How do you balance your time with the teaching and
the work Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:32):
yeah, not, not.
Well, you know I do have thefaults of many artists.
I tend to be a little scatteredat times and you know I go into
the studio and just stare at mypaintings and it's hard to flip
the switch to on sometimesproduce work.
(36:01):
Um, as part of what drew me tothis, to this job, actually to
have that kind of built-inbalance between teaching and and
and production.
This is only my second year soI'm kind of still learning the
ropes of you know how to balancethat well.
Um, but you know, for me it'sjust you know my adhd brain I
have to sort of gamify it in asense and make sure I put things
(36:24):
in my calendar studio time,research time, teaching time,
preparation.
I've got to just have it laidout so I can get it done, so I
can do it.
And, as I said earlier, on topof that I'm going off to help
with a student retreat nextweekend, so that's time away.
That it's part of my job, butnot necessarily part of my
(36:47):
teaching and not necessarilypart of my work, my artistic
work, and so it's a balance.
You know it takes some thingsare going to take a hit, and
part of it, part of doing itwell is kind of recognizing that
I can't, you know, onlydedicate myself to painting and
only dedicate myself to teaching, and I can't only dedicate
(37:07):
myself to my pastoral work.
It's got to, there's got to be,you know, that tension given,
giving and taking.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
And Alan, you put a few notes in the chat.
I don't know if you wanted tocome on and ask any questions or
make any comments no, I justfound this has just been
fascinating.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I mean, as always, there's so much to you know,
absorb and process.
So thank you, jonathan, fordoing this.
I mean I did find it veryinteresting because obviously
you know you could talk aboutsort of religious influence and
arts forever.
Um, I've just been looking at.
James painted an amazing videothe other day about.
You know the last supper andyou know the history of how it
(37:50):
was painted, the technical sideof it, but also you know what it
was designed to represent andhow it was different from other
depictions of the last supper,so you can analyze this stuff
for ages.
I'm really interested in whatJonathan was saying about
getting away from all theclichéd stuff.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Ithink the best piece of
religious art possibly is, youknow, salvador Dali's St John's
(38:12):
Christ, because that's taking avery obvious theme in
Christianity.
But managing to find a new takeon it after the best part of
2,000 years of depicting that,that took some doing, but I do
like the idea that it's funny.
There's a church I love allchurches and we're surrounded by
them down here.
(38:33):
It's amazing.
Some of them are all abandonedand there's all the history, but
there's one and it's just theirlogo, because it's like an
abstract logo, but it sort ofrepresents the quite unusual
features.
It's only sort of a fairlystandard 19th century church,
but they've got quite a modern,hip logo.
It looks like something thatwould be designed for Google,
(38:53):
but I just really like itbecause it's so novel.
And down here, because we'vegot the cathedral, of course, um
, and that features a lot.
You know, just as a secularlogo down here, because there's
a lot of things down here calledthree spires, although I have
actually discussed this.
That cathedral has four,definitely has four spires and
(39:16):
it's like taking photo.
You see all four of them.
It has four spires.
You see all four of them.
It has four spires.
I was having this debate evenwith the bishop Please stop
emailing me but it wasinteresting because they built
the cathedral and theyincorporated what used to be the
Paris church and that,effectively, is now one-aisled
(39:37):
stroke chapel but that's stillgot its original spire on it.
But then they did the amazingand it's quite funny because it
was specifically designed, eventhough it's quite a recent build
.
It was built in 1888.
It was designed to look veryold because they wanted they
effectively wanted faketradition.
It was all to do with the rowsbetween what was the capital
(40:00):
town of Cornwall and it keptmoving around.
So Truro effectivelycrowdfunded this amazing
cathedral and there's some greatartworks in that.
There's one I really like whereit's like an aerial, it's like a
big painting of the CornishPeninsula, but it's got every
church represented as sort oflike a beam of light going up,
(40:21):
and I just like that because Ialso like maps.
It combines two of my favoritethings artwork and maps.
But yeah, I just like the ideathat you're saying that.
I mean, I think you're possiblyright.
You know all art is sacred, um,and I just like the idea that
you're moving on from.
Don't't get me wrong.
I mean, some of the traditionalstuff is amazing and you know,
(40:42):
like I say, religion'scontribution to art.
I mean I'm not a big fan of it.
You know I like contemporaryart but obviously you have to
accept, you know, like Berninidid no thing or two about
architecture.
You know, when you sort of Imean I put it about that
digitised Vatican project Idon't know if people are
familiar with it which is justabsolutely amazing because you
(41:04):
can spend all the time you wantsticking your nose right up to
places that you wouldn't be ableto get to in real life.
You can have a proper exploring,go underground and you know
just the layers of history.
You know from the original sortof grottos and tombs of the
original necropolis.
You know from the original sortof grottos and tombs of the
original necropolis.
You know from Roman times allthe way up to what we have now.
(41:26):
I just find it amazing.
But yeah, just to say I justthink the idea of getting away
from all that you know, cliched,you know, oh, that's clearly
religious art.
I do like the idea of you knowsomething, you look at and it
isn't even necessarily apparentat first, this religious artwork
.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, I had a friend in art school, a classmate, who
in a sense was doing the exactopposite thing that I was trying
to do.
She was trying to bring in morereligious iconography into her
non-religious work, and I wastrying to get away from
religious iconography but hernon-religious work and I was
kind of trying to get away fromreligious iconography but still
make it a religious work, and Ialways go back to this idea of
(42:09):
so.
Tolkien is one of my greatinspirations.
Probably my two favoriteauthors are him and Flannery
O'Connor, and they both writeabout imaginations a lot and how
specifically the religiousimagination in a sense needs to
be a more.
It has to have more depth,right.
And so one of the things that Inoticed is that so many people,
(42:29):
non-religious people, can readsomething like the Lord of the
Rings, which Tolkien himself hassaid is a deeply religious book
, as well, as go into some ofthese old cathedrals around the
world and just be moved and findand find them deeply beautiful,
deeply moving.
And yet when we look at a lot ofsort of more contemporary,
modern religious art, you know,sometimes it's harder.
(42:53):
Well, let me say it's harder forsomebody, a non-religious
person, to see something likethat and say, oh, that's I like
that.
You know, that's a moving thingfor me and so, yeah, part of my
desire to move away from someof those more explicit images
and iconography again, sort ofthat liturgical search, worship
side aside is so that we canactually begin to have this
(43:17):
conversation with somebody, likewith what Tolkien did with a
non-believer, with anon-religious, and not sort of
begin the conversation with adifference of sort of a clash,
that we can sort of have thisencounter, this engagement and
(43:39):
talk about something that goesdeeper than just sort of the
surface level things images-what I was thinking of when you
said that was that then thiscurrent project where you're
specifically referencing all ofthese reliquaries or other
objects that are very muchrooted in church, that in itself
(44:03):
to me I could see where ithelps start a conversation with
anyone from any background andit kind of brings those objects
that they might not otherwisefocus on into their line of
sight.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
And who knows where it goes from there.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, there's a lot of really weird things in the
Catholic church and I just thinkthat's kind of neat and I don't
want to.
I still haven't quite figuredout a way of incorporating,
incorporating the real weirdness, like chapels built of bones
and you know, images of saintswith their tongues cut out and
(44:40):
eyeballs on a plate.
But yeah, I think they're sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
No, you're addressing the iconography, the objects,
the so on, of which being alifetime student of.
Catholic education from yearone up through Boston College,
the Jesuits.
Speaker 7 (45:06):
There, you go.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
What you've just said brought to mind kind of a
humorous idea on what you'resaying is being brought up in,
you know, catholic grammarschools and so on.
One of the things that was toldwas a good thing to have was a
holy water bottle.
Now, probably some people herehave never heard of that.
(45:34):
It's a little little jar with a, you know, you loosen a cap and
you can sprinkle it and youfill it up at the church, at the
baptismal font or somethinglike that, and I was taught to
do this stupid thing, which was,before going to bed, opening my
(45:57):
bedroom door and sprinkling theroom with holy water so that
the devil wouldn't get me duringthe night.
So there's some humor in it.
I mean, at the time it wasserious.
The absurdity of it now isobvious.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, motions like andthat's what I think for me, that
sort of this breakthrough thatI just recently had about adding
the figure to these objects,like that motion, that it what
(46:37):
can spark those conversations inyou know, hopefully, in the
work that I do, is that you knowwhether or not you know the
thing that I'm holding.
You've been given something, sothere's, there's um, there's a
connection there which I thinkis kind of cool.
Speaker 7 (46:57):
I just wanted to say thank you so much for for um,
you're talking to us today andit's been really fascinating and
something that I've beenthinking a lot as you've been
talking were kind of two thingsreally the way in which a lot of
people, I think, who would notsay that they are traditionally
religious in any way, are deeplysort of touched and really feel
(47:19):
a sense of their spiritualselves when they are faced with
or when they see or are in theenvironment of some kind of
spiritual art or architecture.
I was just thinking of a programon the deli I was watching the
other day.
About it was.
It was about it was very lighttv, you know, to relax, and it
was about going on cruises andthis particular cruise was
(47:42):
through India and these peoplethen travelled around in India
and they went to the Taj Mahaland so many of them who would
have said they you know they hadkind of no interest in formal
religion necessarily or anyexperience of it were so deeply
touched in what they woulddescribe as a very sort of
(48:02):
spiritual way by their visit tothe Garden Hall.
So I think that's reallyinteresting, but I also think,
you know, lots of people wouldalso say again, who wouldn't say
that they were necessarilyreligious in any formal way also
feel a sense of their sort ofspiritual selves when they are
(48:24):
just touched by what you wouldterm as kind of non-sacred art
or just the beauty of naturegenerally.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
So I think there are those kind of almost two sides
to a coin yeah, and that's whatI love.
You know, I've been fortunateenough to travel around the
world and seeing non-Christianreligious and sometimes secular
art, whether it be religious ornot, and be moved by it.
(48:52):
You know, there's somethingthere that I'm looking for at
least, I don't know that I'vequite gotten it yet but how do
you ev, how, how to, how do youevoke that?
How do you get that?
That's, that really is kind ofwhat I'm, what I'm looking for,
because there's something deeplyagain, deeply human, about
deeply personal, about that,about that connection.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Jarnik, did you want to offer your question?
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yes, I was just very curious about the relevance of
religious objects or physicalityof objects.
In what ways is that for youperhaps important for your own
personal faith?
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, it's a funny thing because on the one hand,
they're just things.
Again, it's not magic.
We like to have this idea thatpriests are casting spells and
high-level wizards and whatnot,but they're just things, right,
they're things that we havegiven meaning to, whereas a
(49:53):
non-religious person or anon-Catholic might look at that
thing and not know that this isan incredibly sacred thing.
That doesn't mean that thing,and not know that this is an
incredibly sacred thing.
That doesn't mean that.
It's not that.
But so when I look at thesethings and that's partly why I
am so interested right now inmoving away from just the object
itself, but how the objectengages with the person, how the
(50:15):
object engages with thetradition, you know an example
forgive me for going onto thenerd side for a second.
An example I like to give is inLord of the Rings, where
Aragorn is given the reforgedsword right, the sword itself.
Anybody could hold it, anybodycould use it as a sword, but
only he, only the king, coulduse its authority to command the
(50:39):
army of the dead.
If that makes it's a weirdexample, I realize, but the
thing itself isn't as importantas the thing plus that tradition
, that veneration that has beengiven to it.
So it's sort of this comingtogether of, yeah, this coming
together that I find very, veryfascinating, very moving.
Speaker 5 (50:59):
I mean just to chip in there, because you're saying
about things getting value, andobviously without getting into
all the sort of like theology ofthis, which I don't think my
40-year-old REA level wouldactually do just like as a long
time.
Ask me about the synopticgospels.
Hey, fantastic, let's not goany deeper than that.
But I'm thinking of things likethe shroud of turin, obviously
(51:23):
a controversial object, but Iquite like you know the catholic
church's official positionwhich is, hey, if you like it,
you like it, we're not, we'renot making any about it, but if
it helps you focus or thinkabout things, well, great, it
serves a purpose.
I mean, I do an artwork and Ithink it was.
You know, probably it'd beinteresting.
You know I mean, oh, it's aforgery.
(51:44):
I don't think it was, I thinkit possibly was designed to be.
You know, just something likeall art to provoke a response
and to get people thinking.
But you know, obviously,because I think one thing people
find out about Catholicismperhaps is like things like,
things like you know, our thingabout relics, and it's like you
keep what it's like, well, yeah,you know.
(52:05):
And it's like, yes, okay, if youadd them all together, but it's
, you know, the whole point isthat there's, you know, the
official position is we're notsaying anything about them,
we're just saying and that's whyI think it is interesting that
there's always you were sayingabout, you know, trying to
distinguish between the sacredand the profane in terms of you
know, what's art and what's notart, and what's religious and
what, and I think that issomething there that it's like
(52:27):
you've got these objects andit's like are they holy objects
or are they like any piece ofart?
Speaker 1 (52:32):
just something to get you thinking yeah, it also
takes into account personalpreference.
Right like, for example, Ireally like heavy metal and I
don't think there's anybodyaround that would say that
that's a sacred work, but I findit very beautiful.
So I think there is this ideathat the subject matters, the
(52:54):
person seeing the thing reallymatters seeing the thing really
matters.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Well as far as a big fan of the sort of philosophy of
the minimalists, that youremove everything from it and
it's all completely subjective.
It's just what you get out ofit.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
So yes.
I very much, yeah, I very much,you know empathize with that
point of view and, ilana, youhave joined today.
Good to see you.
Did you have any comments orquestions you wanted to to offer
?
Speaker 8 (53:28):
oh, thank you so much for for speaking to us today.
I I think a lot of what I'mwhat I'm hearing and I think
what I'm kind of feeling is likea lot of the importance of
spirituality and just the waythat it's kind of like this
internal journey and it's itnever ends.
(53:50):
And I think that I feel thatalso when I'm making paintings,
it's kind of like thismeditative thing, um, and I
never kind of thought of art asa as like a sacred endeavor and
um, it's just kind of.
I feel like it's a lot, becauseI I don't think about I don't,
(54:11):
I have to be honest, I don'tthink about this stuff, but but
it's really, really cool, uh, tohear you speak about it,
because I feel like it justopened up a whole new, um, just
a whole new landscape for me.
Just it feels very, veryexpansive.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
So I really appreciate it yeah, thank you,
it is a lot yeah never ending.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Thank you, uh Nabundo did youhave a?
Question as well.
Speaker 6 (54:44):
I had a question and a comment.
I just wanted to say thank youvery much, father Harmon, for
this lovely conversation.
It's been very enlightening umfor the both of us, but for me,
um more specifically, it's beenvery enlightening because I'm I
mean, I've been a Catholic mywhole life um, and I'm still
(55:07):
currently actively practicing myfaith.
But I find that it's alwaysvery interesting um to hear from
priests about their variousvocations um that they choose to
pursue in addition to,obviously, the priestly vocation
.
So it's been very, veryfascinating, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Thank you so much for sharing as you have today.
It's been really, as Nabundoput and others have said, really
really enriching.
So thank you for your time andfor sharing from your heart as
you have.
I really look forward to seeingthe series that you're working
on as it unfolds.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yep, I'm excited to get to work on that.
Speaker 5 (55:51):
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, oh Nabundo, you'rereally rocking the girl in the
pearl earring look it's so you.
It's so, you Thanks.
Speaker 8 (56:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (56:03):
Thank you everybody, thank you Bye, bye, bye.
Speaker 2 (56:12):
There will be links in the show notes to learn more.
If you're intrigued by thispodcast, it would be much
appreciated if you could leave arating or review and tag
Warfare of Art and Law podcast.
Until next time, this isStephanie Draughty bringing you
Warfare of Art and Law.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember injustice anywhere
(56:33):
is a threat to justiceeverywhere.
And I think that's what art really can do can
change people's hearts.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Warfare of Art and Law, the podcast that
focuses on how justice does ordoesn't play out when art and
law overlap.
Hi everyone, it's Stephanie andthat was Jesuit priest and
artist, Father Jonathan Harmon,from a recent Second Saturday
Art and Justice online gathering.
(00:28):
What follows is a recordingfrom that gathering, during
which Father Harmon shares abouthis background, his decision to
earn a master's at the New YorkAcademy of Art and his current
position teaching art at LoyolaUniversity.
And his current positionteaching art at Loyola
University.
We also touch on a range ofother topics, from the
(00:49):
background of art in the churchto Fr Harmon's thoughts on
broadening the definition ofsacred art.
Fr Jonathan Harmon, welcome toWarfare of Art and Law.
And Second Saturday.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
My pleasure.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Would you give an overview of your various fields
of work and your background, howyou came into those?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Sure, so I am a Jesuit priest, a Catholic Jesuit
priest, which means I belong toa religious order, the Society
of Jesus.
I belong to a religious order,the Society of Jesus.
I grew up in East Texas, not avery Catholic part of the
country, so that was still, youknow, sort of a you know here or
(01:37):
there way to live growing up.
But joined in 2008 and haveworked in a lot of different
areas sort of volunteering andhave worked in a lot of
different areas, sort ofvolunteering and even before I
was a priest, a part of what theJesuit idea is that we are
constantly at work, and so Ispent a number of years teaching
full time, as well, as, youknow, summers here and there
(02:04):
doing different works of serviceyou could say all around.
So all of that really has kindof built up to me.
Right now I'm teaching full-timeat Loyola University in Chicago
.
I teach fine arts, drawing andpainting, as well as my priestly
ministries.
I offer mass and do things likethat around campus.
So it really is an interestingrole being at a Jesuit school as
(02:26):
a Jesuit priest and as ateacher.
So I have sort of this dualrole as not just a professor but
also sort of a pastoralresource for our students here,
both Catholic and non-Catholic.
That's one of the things that Ireally like about being at a
Catholic school is that it's notsort of taboo to talk about
spiritual things and be somebodythat can talk to when crisis
(02:49):
inevitably comes up.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The arts for you.
What was the seed where thatbegan?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, so I grew up in an artistic household.
My father is a goldsmith bytrade, my grandfather is a
watchmaker, so I grew up goingto trade fairs and things like
that.
So it's always sort of been apart of my life.
I was always drawing, I wasalways doodling, never really
(03:17):
found a real focus as a child.
I don't know if anybody elsehas had this same thing happen
to them, but I was told at avery young anybody else has had
this the same thing happen tothem.
But you know, I was told at avery young age that I had this
thing called talent, which meantthat I didn't have to really
work at developing skills.
So I didn't and it just kind of, you know, petered out.
Before I became a Jesuit I wasdoing junior college in where I
(03:40):
grew up in Tyler, texas, and Istudied graphic design.
I didn't actually finish thatdegree but I studied it for a
while and that was sort of myintroduction to sort of a
professional working art Veryquickly.
Part of the reason why I didn'tfinish was very quickly.
I realized that I was moreinterested in the artistic side
rather than the design side andso I started getting into.
(04:01):
You know, this was 2003,.
So very early days of digitalpainting and Photoshop becoming
much more than just photomanipulation.
So I was very intrigued by thatand so I sort of worked through
that.
Funnily enough, when I didenter the Jesuits in 2008, I
(04:21):
didn't take any of my digitalart stuff with me I didn't think
that priests did that kind ofthing just from my own ignorance
.
And so I left it behind.
And then, and as I said, when Iwas teaching high school full
time, I was asked they had alongtime art teacher retire and
they know that I had taken someof these courses at junior
college.
They're like we need this plugto be filled just until we hire
(04:44):
a full-time.
So can you teach this basicintroductory drawing class?
I said, yeah, sure, it'd be fun.
And at the same time I had beengiven this iPad for the first
time ever.
I've evolved poverty, so I hadnever really had an iPad.
I entered right when iPhoneswere kind of becoming a thing,
so I'd never even really had asmartphone before this.
(05:06):
And so that's when I startedgetting more into digital art,
sort of proper.
And that was right around thesame time that this little
unknown app at the time,procreate, had come out, and so
I was able to sort of hop onthat and really incorporated a
lot of that into, yeah, into myown teaching and had the kit
(05:26):
because all of the kids hadtheir own iPad.
So I was like, if there's someway that we could help them be a
little bit more creative andplay fewer games, seemed like
that could have been a win.
So I was sort of an earlyadopter of this iPad thing
before Apple Pencil, you know,before all that stuff came out
and started doing some paintingson my own.
(05:47):
That was really the primary waythat I was creating art for a
number of years, strictly iPad.
I'd pretty much given updrawing on paper and I'd never
really painted before, and sothis was sort of, yeah, what I
was doing.
For a long time, really upuntil I went to the New York
Academy of Art, I had been doing, again, primarily digital.
(06:08):
I had taken a few.
When I was doing my theologystudies in Berkeley, california,
I had taken a few courses in orlike seminar things, workshops
in acrylic and oil painting justas sort of dipping my toes into
in acrylic and oil painting,just as sort of dipping my toes
into, yeah, just to seeing whatthat was like I'd noticed there
were a lot of traditionalpainters that could just sort of
(06:29):
dip into the iPad world andmake really amazing paintings,
but I'd noticed that it was alot more difficult to go the
other way A lot of digitalpainters having a hard time
going into traditional media.
So it seemed like there wassomething, this thing that we
call fundamentals, foundations.
So I decided that, in order tomake my digital stuff better, I
(06:49):
needed to learn, you know, sortof a more physical, concrete
method of you know what docolors mean?
And so that was my first dipinto, yeah, sort of traditional
media.
And then, probably the next yearwas what was that?
2018, when the Notre DameCathedral caught fire, and I
(07:11):
remember thinking to myself man,had that fire been much worse?
There's really not any way thatwe could replace the artworks
that could have been lost, thatcould have been lost.
And so I remember that wasreally the first time when I
thought maybe I should take thisa little further and sort of
pursue it as a more sort of adedicated ministry opportunity.
(07:33):
Really, you know, because thereis such a long tradition of art
in not only in the Society ofJesus, but the Catholic Church
at large, I mean, our historykind of is the history of art,
and so there's great foundations, there's great support there
and, you know, there are anumber of Jesuits that are
involved in the arts, one wherethey're mostly in teaching.
(07:54):
There are a few practicingartists out there.
But anyway, yeah, I thoughtthat that was sort of the
catalyst for my desire to takethis as a more, yeah, a more
concerted effort.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
A couple of points that you made.
I want to circle back to One ofthem that you just referenced
was the history of art in theJesuit community and we were
chatting briefly before weofficially started the call
about that.
Could you kind of recap thatand give an overview for
everyone?
And, as always, if anyone hasquestions, please feel free to
(08:30):
jump in as well.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yes, so it's a long history.
We've been around for about 500years, so we won't be able to
get to everything, but early onso we were kind of founded.
A lot of people will say thatthe Jesuits were founded as a
counter-reformation movement andthat's not technically true.
St Ignatius the founder sawsort of the corruption of the
(08:55):
day.
You know, there really wasn't amethod of sort of a formal
structure for training newpriests, and so he wanted to
change that.
Basically he wanted to changethe church instead of.
You know where Martin Lutherdecided to break away and do his
(09:16):
own thing, st Ignatius decidedthat he was going to sort of
work within the structure,correct as it was, and try to
bring about change that way.
And funnily enough, one of theways in which that happened very
early on within his own lifewas sort of the promotion of the
arts.
You know, a very sort of alow-hanging fruit was if people
(09:37):
are somewhat illiterate, there'snot a lot of reading, then we
could use pictures, and so thesociety of Jesus from a very uh,
from very early became sort ofuh, benefactors of of artists,
and then some of the great artsof the renaissance were
commissioned by the Jesuits,from Rubens to Bernini.
Um, you know, some of the earlyJesuits themselves were talking
(10:00):
about this.
There's a brother named AndreaPozzo who I recommend everybody
just kind of look up on theirown time.
The church of the Gesù in Rome,there's this great, and in San
Ignacio is the other one, thesegreat ceilings where there's a
lot of trompe l'oeil effectsgoing on.
There's a lot of sort ofperspectival working with the
(10:22):
architecture, sort of developingthis idea of the Italian
Baroque, romanesque and Baroqueart movements, really sort of
centered around these new ideasthat the Jesuits were kind of
working with.
So, yeah, you've got these twosort of approaches right.
You've got we're building theseimmense churches that are
(10:43):
literally, you know, you look upand it's leading you into
heaven, you know, up into thesky, but also a very practical
effect that they're taking thesewoodcuts primarily, and these
different artifacts and thingsmusic out into the mission
(11:25):
no-transcript, in which we canuse sort of cultural images and
iconography and sounds and sortof meld them with a more, I
guess, what we'd call right nowa Baroque sense.
So you can still hearrecordings of sort of the South
American operas that weredeveloped, that have very sort
(11:49):
of traditional melodies and suchas well as sort of an Italian
flair.
Yeah, kind of got off a littleoff track there, but it's just.
Yeah, there's a long history ofworking with the arts and
having artists work with thechurch, of working with the arts
and having artists work withthe church.
Another great Jesuit painterhis name is Daniel Sagers, of
the Northern sort of Flemishschool.
(12:11):
He was a student of Jan BruegelI can't remember if he was the
elder or not but became one ofthe top floral painters of that
area.
A lot of cool stuff withJesuits in the arts and really
all over the world, not justEuropean centric.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, the imagery that you use and your process,
like how have you seen or whatis your thought process when
you're putting together worksnow with the idea of having it
as a work of service.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So my university, loyolaChicago, does not have a.
We don't have an MFA programand we don't really have a BFA
program, and so a lot of whatI'm working on professionally is
teaching non-artists you know,future doctors and lawyers and
engineers why they should careabout art, why they should care
(13:10):
about beautiful things, beautyin the world, and that has
really sort of taken hold in myown work.
And so I for okay, let me backup a little further.
Growing up, I didn't reallylike a lot of contemporary and
modern religious art.
(13:31):
It just seemed kind of bad,sort of saccharine and sort of
kitschy, and so in fact I wassort of hesitant to even get
involved in the arts because Ithought that that was all that
there was.
You know, we had this greathistory, we got this great sort
of paintings of the past, butyou know, thinking that that was
just had to stay there, and sowhat I?
(13:53):
What I try to do right now isWell, ok, so there's sort of two
, two branches of this.
A lot of my work is sort oftrying to deal with this idea of
the tension between the sacredand the secular.
I think it's a fault of thereligious imagination, that we
haven't done a very good job ofbroadening our view and
(14:16):
recognizing beauty in the world,wherever it is.
I made this piece a long timeago where I photoshopped a
picture of Jesus over a sky,over the sun, and I called that
the religious art.
All you have to do is tape apicture of Jesus to it and call
it and that's what makes it goodbut recognizing.
(14:39):
So primarily in my work rightnow, I paint a lot of trees, I
paint a lot of portraiture.
(15:05):
I'm looking for encounters,experiences that people have,
ways in which we can have acommon, a primal symbol that
transcends religious ideologiesor what have you and goes down
to a deeper truth.
And so, basically, what that'strying to do, and why I'm
connecting it back to my work atthe university, is really I'm
trying to do, and why I'mconnecting it back to my work at
(15:26):
the university is really I'mtrying to open conversation,
open our eyes, so that we canactually see the world, see the
goodness in the world.
You know, through the muck,through all the things that are
trying to divide us right now.
So I don't really use a lot of,you know, religious imagery,
iconography, a lot of religiousimagery, iconography.
I'm trying to find somethingthat is very religious, deeply
(15:53):
religious, without sort ofslapping you over the head with
it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, one of the images that you sent me was of a
farm animal.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
A cow.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So for that, as an example of what you're talking
about.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, so that is.
It was actually a photo I tookwhen I was in Spain doing a
pilgrimage.
So St Ignatius is from the northof Spain, the Basque country,
and so we have this pilgrimagethat basically goes from the
north down into Barcelona, andso I was fortunate enough a few
summers ago to sort of walk thatpath, and it's a beautiful
(16:31):
country and really quite movingto do that, similar to the
Camino Santiago, which hasbecome more popular in recent
years.
But anyway, so this was amoment that I had.
I was just again sort ofenjoying the beauty of creation,
the beauty of the world, andsaw this cow just kind of
lounging around and was reallymoved by.
(16:52):
I was moved by a number ofthings the light and that and
that, the way that it was, sortof that it also was creating,
not creating but enjoyingcreation, in a sense, just sort
of existing, being content, andso with that one I was trying to
(17:13):
capture again these very realand explicit religious themes of
solemnity, of sort of atranscendent moment of being, a
sublimity.
Yeah, in sort of anon-traditional way.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What are the responses from the students that
you were referencing earlierwhen you're seeking to engage
them in this way?
How is that?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
They're very open.
You know it's fun to just say,look, this isn't.
You know, because every non-artstudent and some art students
think that they need to be atthe master level on day one and
my job is to say look, I'm notexpecting any of you to be able
to draw well.
In a sense, that's my job.
(17:59):
I need to help you to be ableto draw well, help you to be
able to draw well, but from dayone I really challenge and
stress the importance of seeing,of just taking a moment, stop
what you're doing, put the phonedown and look at the world.
Right.
That's, ultimately, what thepractice of drawing is, is close
observation.
And again, just sort of as anaside, I think that's why I'm so
(18:24):
drawn to figurative work isbecause, again, this deeply
religious idea of what we wouldcall the incarnation, god
becoming human being, to deeplyobserve and to critically
observe that sort of religiousreality for me is so moving that
you know, to think that wecould ever exhaust the beauty of
(18:46):
the figure just seemsridiculous to me, because
there's so much complexity, somuch individuality that, yeah,
it's so compelling.
So, just this process of seeingand when you talk about it in
those ways, I find students tobe very open to it, that it's
not about this thing or theother, it's just look and
(19:07):
appreciate.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Going to your decision to attend and graduate
from the New York Academy ofFine Art.
Would you describe your processin making that decision and
what your takeaways from yourtime there were?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah.
So it's funny, a lot of peopleare surprised when they find out
that I'm a priest and an artist, that I went to art school.
It's actually a pretty commonpractice for Jesuits in
particular to pursue higherdegrees after our ordination,
after we become priests.
Most of the time it's guysdoing PhDs in you know what you
(19:43):
consider the, what you wouldexpect right, philosophy,
theology, that kind of thing.
Junkoots have always been sortof a more diverse group.
You know we have lawyers anddoctors and just a lot of
different.
You know, I guess what youcould call professional
endeavors.
A lot of the time these areguys that had those degrees
before coming to join.
(20:04):
Sometimes that comes up whilewe're in formation.
So me going to get an artdegree in itself wasn't unique.
What was unique was the artdegree.
You know it was difficult.
I didn't know what sort ofsupport I would get because it
is sort of a non-traditionalapproach to post-ordination
(20:24):
studies and you know, just likemost parents out there with a
kid that wants to go to artschool, it's like well, what are
you going to do with that?
How are you going to make?
How are you going to make money?
You know, fortunately I don'thave to worry too much about
that particular problem, whichis a huge grace and something
(20:45):
that I do not take for granted,but it really was.
I just felt so compelled tolearn.
Really, my desire to go to theacademy was so that I could
learn how to do this well, Ijust needed the skills to draw
well and to paint well.
You know, I had sort of an ideain my mind.
(21:07):
It really wasn't clear if I wasgoing to, you know, pursue
teaching, or if I was going topursue a more active working
artist path.
It wasn't.
I wasn't clear if I really evenwanted to get into religious.
You know what we'd call sacredart.
I'm kind of leaning more inthat direction now.
But also you know what we'dcall sacred art.
(21:27):
I'm kind of leaning more inthat direction now.
But also, you know, I don'twant to just limit myself to
religious work, because I dofeel very strongly about, again,
that tension between the sacredand the secular, that we need
to open our eyes to a broaderartistic language and a broader
artistic imagination really, andjust sort of again, this narrow
(21:49):
idea of what is religious.
So that's kind of why I wantedto go to the academy just to get
the skills, to get thetechniques, to get those
foundations and fundamentals.
What I was really surprised bythere was how open everybody was
.
I was kind of afraid, in fact,to even mention that I was a
priest going to art school allthe stereotypes you can imagine
(22:13):
Then you know, stereotypes existfor a reason, but it was
incredibly.
Yeah, they were incrediblysupportive, I think partly
because I was, I didn't wear mypre-shirt and they kind of got
to know me as a person beforethey found out it's like, oh,
that's weird, but you know,whatever.
And I think the fact that theAcademy is more sort of it's a
(22:35):
figurative art school, so it is.
We are sort of more rooted inthings like the Renaissance and
neoclassical imagery, so therewas sort of a maybe not an
understanding, but like whenyou're sitting in those, in that
kind of iconography and, yeah,that mode of existing, there's
(22:56):
not as much of a sort of apushback against religious
religiosity and such.
Yeah, it was a really beautifultime.
I love my years there.
I made some really greatfriends, um, and I think it did
equip me, um with a better, abetter, uh skill set to to
(23:19):
pursue really and not let my.
What I really didn't want tohave happen was have my skills
inhibit my imagination, and Ithink that they did a really
great job in sort of preparingme for that.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Hey Father, this is Jerry Howdy.
Hi.
My very vague question is youmentioned a little earlier about
how the Jesuits were using, youknow, art as a way to resolve
conflict or to move from point Ato B as a tool, and you've
(24:02):
mentioned that that's importantto you to communicate and to
have others see that, the beautyand the sublimity of what's out
there.
How do you communicate that?
I get step one get out and lookand see and paint or do what it
(24:28):
is you do.
How does that get beyond thatstudent who is with you and
you're talking about it?
Is it just one by one, by one?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Yeah, I don't know that there'snecessarily a concrete
methodology of what happens next.
You know, I think there is sortof that.
In a sense, it has to be rightthat that personal contact is,
(25:04):
you know, this engagement withanother person, um, that if, if,
if, you know, if this wholepractice doesn't go beyond, you
know, bringing at least oneother person together so that
you can have that, whether it bea conversation or even just
that moment where you'restanding there.
I think it was in one of thejournals of Delacroix said that
(25:27):
as soon as you have a group ofpeople in front of a piece, as
soon as somebody speaks, thatmoment is broken.
You're thinking about the thinginstead of being with the thing
.
Yeah, I think it really isabout, you know.
Okay, so my religious languagewould be to change somebody's
heart, right, this metanoia, toturn around, to understand a
(25:49):
difference of existing, adifferent way of existing.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
This is a question that I, you know.
I struggle with a lot.
I do sculpture and my careerwas in law, as I think most of
the people here are, and I makea lot of work that is law and
(26:14):
law-themed and things that I seegoing astray, but it's kind of
like I'm making it for myself.
I don't have that student infront of me.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
To talk it through, help me refine my ideas and also
to pass it on to somebody else.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So there's this really wonderful encyclical by
Pope Benedict XVI called Caritasin Veritate, truth and Charity,
and he talks about justice andcharity as being sort of two
sides of the same coin, and whatI love about the way that he
talks about it is that you can'thave justice without charity
and you can't have charitywithout justice, because justice
(27:02):
, as he says it at least, isgiving to somebody what belongs
to them.
Right, it's returning personhood, effectively individuality.
Charity, then, is giving tosomebody what is mine, and I
can't give of what is mine untilwe return to a person what is
theirs, and I find that is thecreative act I'm giving of
(27:23):
myself, right, I'm pouring outmy desires, my emotions, my
ideas, and so I haven't reallythought this through too much.
I'm kind of coming up with anidea right now of what does that
look like in order to give ofmyself.
How is that work of justicethen, in the work being
(27:46):
developed, how am I helpingpeople sort of receive that idea
?
I don't know that it works thatway in particular, but, yeah,
that giving of oneself, I think,is a crucial step that artists,
sort of naturally, are engagedwith, and somebody that works in
(28:07):
law, I think, in particular, isthat is actively working
through this idea of justice andgiving to somebody.
There's an interestingconnection there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
This idea of justice and giving to somebody.
There's an interestingconnection there.
I was curious about the termsacred art that you used earlier
and how that's defined andwhether it's in a state of flux,
like even with the process,that you have to broaden perhaps
the definition of that.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, it is something that I think about a lot,
something that I would like todo.
There are.
So, in sort of the religiousworld, there's a number of
categories, for better or forworse.
So there's what we would callliturgical art, the things that
go into churches, that arespecifically made and designed
(28:53):
for the act of worship, whichwould fall under this category
of sacred art.
But I would define so sort ofI'm going to put that aside you
know, the paintings that I makeI don't think would really fit
in a church, just because that's, that's the whole other thing.
Yeah, I really would like tobroaden how we understand Sort
(29:20):
of my cheeky approach to this isto say that there really is no
secular art.
It's all sacred.
We're all engaging with a deepagain I've said this before a
deep truth of who we are ashuman beings, of how we are
connected to the world, and thatthat is sacred.
Um, so, yeah, this, my wholeprocess is just try to say look
(29:43):
there's, you know we havebeautiful architecture, we have
beautiful nature, you know wehave beautiful people.
Um, and again, I'm not definingbeauty as just sort of you know
, airbrushed and you know, yeah,whatever that is, but like true
, true humanity, like realpeople.
That's beautiful, and all ofour bumps and bruises is to say
(30:12):
look, this is a sacred thingthat we do as artists, whether
that's explicitly Christian,whether that's explicitly not
Christian, as long as you'reengaging with the world and
people.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I think there's a real beauty there.
I think what I'm taking awayand correct me if I'm wrong that
all of that is wrapped up inthis goal of seeking a social
justice.
All of that is wrapped up inthis goal of seeking a social
justice.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, I mean again.
You know I very much believethat art changes hearts, it
opens people's eyes to thereality of humanity.
You know, we, I think too.
You know this is not a newissue, but just with different
effects.
You know, this problem ofsocial media, that we're all
(30:57):
sort of up in everybody'sbusiness all the time, that we
can't just take a moment andstop, you know, touch the grass,
as the kids are saying, and Ithink that's something that art
truly, truly can do.
You know, it just makes youstop and look and maybe even
(31:18):
have a conversation withsomebody, instead of talking
through filters and such.
And I can't, yeah, I reallycan't think of.
There are specific ways in whichwe can promote justice, and
(31:52):
actually that's what I loveabout being part of a religious
community, part of the CatholicChurch, is that you know, in a
sense I don't have to put all ofthat weight onto my shoulders,
because there's so manywonderful things, from Catholic
charities to Jesuit refugeeservices, there's a lot of work
that's being done in the churchto help the physical problems of
the world and a lot of thesuffering that's going on in the
world, and I can, in a sense,be a part of that and go.
I was just down a few summersago.
I was down.
We just started this newministry down on the border in
Brownsville of Texas and Mexico,which is kind of a big crisis
(32:17):
area right now, and sort of justbeing with people, going and
talking to people, being in.
You know, that 100% informs theway that I see when I, when I'm
painting a portrait, right, I'mthinking about all of those,
the poor and the suffering andthe put down.
Um, yeah, and to you know,hopefully so that that there is
(32:39):
still good, there is stillbeauty, there is still something
, there is still light in theworld, even though so much is is
dark.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
With experiences like what you just referenced, are
you calling uh from what you'reseeing to then go back to the
studio and create work Portraitsyou mentioned like would you do
you?
What is your process with that?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So right now, maybe contradicting what I've been
talking about so far, but rightnow I'm looking at developing a
series of like Catholic objects,like weird things that if
you're not sort of in the circle, you don't you look at it, it's
just like, well, that's a weird.
Why would you have that littlebit of bone or that weird gold?
You know thing?
(33:25):
Um, I, you know I love thoselittle, those little knickknacks
, and you know, in a sense theyI shouldn't call them
knickknacks some of them arelike sacred vessels and things
like that.
But but so I'd started paintingsome of them and noticed there
was just something wasn't quitesitting like, it wasn't moving
me as much as I hoped that theywere.
Like, I love these objects, Ilove looking at these beautiful
(33:47):
objects and I love sort of theinteraction of them in whether
it's in sacred worship or goingout into the world.
And what I realized was whatwas lacking was the figure, was
a person, and so I startedincorporating hands into these.
You know, for example, achalice is being given.
When I have sacred oils thatI'm anointing the sick right,
there's that physical, there'sthat touch, and so that's sort
(34:11):
of what I'm bringing in when I'mthinking about how do I, how do
I take these sort of ideas thatI've got lofty and concretize
them, make them, make it aboutthis, this moment where you're
interacting with another personand sort of developing this idea
of what that means in your own,in your own, the viewer's
(34:33):
imagination Does that make?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
yeah, yeah, yeah, and so for going forward.
Like the projects that you seeyourself doing, they would be
involved around those objectsyeah, for the foreseeable future
, I think I, I mean, I stilllove painting trees.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
it's just kind of a thing that I like.
I don't know if it's somethingthat other people would like,
but I find it to be sort of ayou know, excuse the pun a
grounding effort.
It helps me to sort of feellike here I am and this is the
spot, this is the place where Iexist and where I find beauty in
(35:19):
the world.
Um, so yeah, I'm I'm constantlysort of working on a couple of
different uh uh projects likethat.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
How do you balance your time with the teaching and
the work Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:32):
yeah, not, not.
Well, you know I do have thefaults of many artists.
I tend to be a little scatteredat times and you know I go into
the studio and just stare at mypaintings and it's hard to flip
the switch to on sometimesproduce work.
(36:01):
Um, as part of what drew me tothis, to this job, actually to
have that kind of built-inbalance between teaching and and
and production.
This is only my second year soI'm kind of still learning the
ropes of you know how to balancethat well.
Um, but you know, for me it'sjust you know my adhd brain I
have to sort of gamify it in asense and make sure I put things
(36:24):
in my calendar studio time,research time, teaching time,
preparation.
I've got to just have it laidout so I can get it done, so I
can do it.
And, as I said earlier, on topof that I'm going off to help
with a student retreat nextweekend, so that's time away.
That it's part of my job, butnot necessarily part of my
(36:47):
teaching and not necessarilypart of my work, my artistic
work, and so it's a balance.
You know it takes some thingsare going to take a hit, and
part of it, part of doing itwell is kind of recognizing that
I can't, you know, onlydedicate myself to painting and
only dedicate myself to teaching, and I can't only dedicate
(37:07):
myself to my pastoral work.
It's got to, there's got to be,you know, that tension given,
giving and taking.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
And Alan, you put a few notes in the chat.
I don't know if you wanted tocome on and ask any questions or
make any comments no, I justfound this has just been
fascinating.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I mean, as always, there's so much to you know,
absorb and process.
So thank you, jonathan, fordoing this.
I mean I did find it veryinteresting because obviously
you know you could talk aboutsort of religious influence and
arts forever.
Um, I've just been looking at.
James painted an amazing videothe other day about.
You know the last supper andyou know the history of how it
(37:50):
was painted, the technical sideof it, but also you know what it
was designed to represent andhow it was different from other
depictions of the last supper,so you can analyze this stuff
for ages.
I'm really interested in whatJonathan was saying about
getting away from all theclichéd stuff.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Ithink the best piece of
religious art possibly is, youknow, salvador Dali's St John's
(38:12):
Christ, because that's taking avery obvious theme in
Christianity.
But managing to find a new takeon it after the best part of
2,000 years of depicting that,that took some doing, but I do
like the idea that it's funny.
There's a church I love allchurches and we're surrounded by
them down here.
(38:33):
It's amazing.
Some of them are all abandonedand there's all the history, but
there's one and it's just theirlogo, because it's like an
abstract logo, but it sort ofrepresents the quite unusual
features.
It's only sort of a fairlystandard 19th century church,
but they've got quite a modern,hip logo.
It looks like something thatwould be designed for Google,
(38:53):
but I just really like itbecause it's so novel.
And down here, because we'vegot the cathedral, of course, um
, and that features a lot.
You know, just as a secularlogo down here, because there's
a lot of things down here calledthree spires, although I have
actually discussed this.
That cathedral has four,definitely has four spires and
(39:16):
it's like taking photo.
You see all four of them.
It has four spires.
You see all four of them.
It has four spires.
I was having this debate evenwith the bishop Please stop
emailing me but it wasinteresting because they built
the cathedral and theyincorporated what used to be the
Paris church and that,effectively, is now one-aisled
(39:37):
stroke chapel but that's stillgot its original spire on it.
But then they did the amazingand it's quite funny because it
was specifically designed, eventhough it's quite a recent build
.
It was built in 1888.
It was designed to look veryold because they wanted they
effectively wanted faketradition.
It was all to do with the rowsbetween what was the capital
(40:00):
town of Cornwall and it keptmoving around.
So Truro effectivelycrowdfunded this amazing
cathedral and there's some greatartworks in that.
There's one I really like whereit's like an aerial, it's like a
big painting of the CornishPeninsula, but it's got every
church represented as sort oflike a beam of light going up,
(40:21):
and I just like that because Ialso like maps.
It combines two of my favoritethings artwork and maps.
But yeah, I just like the ideathat you're saying that.
I mean, I think you're possiblyright.
You know all art is sacred, um,and I just like the idea that
you're moving on from.
Don't't get me wrong.
I mean, some of the traditionalstuff is amazing and you know,
(40:42):
like I say, religion'scontribution to art.
I mean I'm not a big fan of it.
You know I like contemporaryart but obviously you have to
accept, you know, like Berninidid no thing or two about
architecture.
You know, when you sort of Imean I put it about that
digitised Vatican project Idon't know if people are
familiar with it which is justabsolutely amazing because you
(41:04):
can spend all the time you wantsticking your nose right up to
places that you wouldn't be ableto get to in real life.
You can have a proper exploring,go underground and you know
just the layers of history.
You know from the original sortof grottos and tombs of the
original necropolis.
You know from the original sortof grottos and tombs of the
original necropolis.
You know from Roman times allthe way up to what we have now.
(41:26):
I just find it amazing.
But yeah, just to say I justthink the idea of getting away
from all that you know, cliched,you know, oh, that's clearly
religious art.
I do like the idea of you knowsomething, you look at and it
isn't even necessarily apparentat first, this religious artwork
.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, I had a friend in art school, a classmate, who
in a sense was doing the exactopposite thing that I was trying
to do.
She was trying to bring in morereligious iconography into her
non-religious work, and I wastrying to get away from
religious iconography but hernon-religious work and I was
kind of trying to get away fromreligious iconography but still
make it a religious work, and Ialways go back to this idea of
(42:09):
so.
Tolkien is one of my greatinspirations.
Probably my two favoriteauthors are him and Flannery
O'Connor, and they both writeabout imaginations a lot and how
specifically the religiousimagination in a sense needs to
be a more.
It has to have more depth,right.
And so one of the things that Inoticed is that so many people,
(42:29):
non-religious people, can readsomething like the Lord of the
Rings, which Tolkien himself hassaid is a deeply religious book
, as well, as go into some ofthese old cathedrals around the
world and just be moved and findand find them deeply beautiful,
deeply moving.
And yet when we look at a lot ofsort of more contemporary,
modern religious art, you know,sometimes it's harder.
(42:53):
Well, let me say it's harder forsomebody, a non-religious
person, to see something likethat and say, oh, that's I like
that.
You know, that's a moving thingfor me and so, yeah, part of my
desire to move away from someof those more explicit images
and iconography again, sort ofthat liturgical search, worship
side aside is so that we canactually begin to have this
(43:17):
conversation with somebody, likewith what Tolkien did with a
non-believer, with anon-religious, and not sort of
begin the conversation with adifference of sort of a clash,
that we can sort of have thisencounter, this engagement and
(43:39):
talk about something that goesdeeper than just sort of the
surface level things images-what I was thinking of when you
said that was that then thiscurrent project where you're
specifically referencing all ofthese reliquaries or other
objects that are very muchrooted in church, that in itself
(44:03):
to me I could see where ithelps start a conversation with
anyone from any background andit kind of brings those objects
that they might not otherwisefocus on into their line of
sight.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
And who knows where it goes from there.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, there's a lot of really weird things in the
Catholic church and I just thinkthat's kind of neat and I don't
want to.
I still haven't quite figuredout a way of incorporating,
incorporating the real weirdness, like chapels built of bones
and you know, images of saintswith their tongues cut out and
(44:40):
eyeballs on a plate.
But yeah, I think they're sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
No, you're addressing the iconography, the objects,
the so on, of which being alifetime student of.
Catholic education from yearone up through Boston College,
the Jesuits.
Speaker 7 (45:06):
There, you go.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
What you've just said brought to mind kind of a
humorous idea on what you'resaying is being brought up in,
you know, catholic grammarschools and so on.
One of the things that was toldwas a good thing to have was a
holy water bottle.
Now, probably some people herehave never heard of that.
(45:34):
It's a little little jar with a, you know, you loosen a cap and
you can sprinkle it and youfill it up at the church, at the
baptismal font or somethinglike that, and I was taught to
do this stupid thing, which was,before going to bed, opening my
(45:57):
bedroom door and sprinkling theroom with holy water so that
the devil wouldn't get me duringthe night.
So there's some humor in it.
I mean, at the time it wasserious.
The absurdity of it now isobvious.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, motions like andthat's what I think for me, that
sort of this breakthrough thatI just recently had about adding
the figure to these objects,like that motion, that it what
(46:37):
can spark those conversations inyou know, hopefully, in the
work that I do, is that you knowwhether or not you know the
thing that I'm holding.
You've been given something, sothere's, there's um, there's a
connection there which I thinkis kind of cool.
Speaker 7 (46:57):
I just wanted to say thank you so much for for um,
you're talking to us today andit's been really fascinating and
something that I've beenthinking a lot as you've been
talking were kind of two thingsreally the way in which a lot of
people, I think, who would notsay that they are traditionally
religious in any way, are deeplysort of touched and really feel
(47:19):
a sense of their spiritualselves when they are faced with
or when they see or are in theenvironment of some kind of
spiritual art or architecture.
I was just thinking of a programon the deli I was watching the
other day.
About it was.
It was about it was very lighttv, you know, to relax, and it
was about going on cruises andthis particular cruise was
(47:42):
through India and these peoplethen travelled around in India
and they went to the Taj Mahaland so many of them who would
have said they you know they hadkind of no interest in formal
religion necessarily or anyexperience of it were so deeply
touched in what they woulddescribe as a very sort of
(48:02):
spiritual way by their visit tothe Garden Hall.
So I think that's reallyinteresting, but I also think,
you know, lots of people wouldalso say again, who wouldn't say
that they were necessarilyreligious in any formal way also
feel a sense of their sort ofspiritual selves when they are
(48:24):
just touched by what you wouldterm as kind of non-sacred art
or just the beauty of naturegenerally.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
So I think there are those kind of almost two sides
to a coin yeah, and that's whatI love.
You know, I've been fortunateenough to travel around the
world and seeing non-Christianreligious and sometimes secular
art, whether it be religious ornot, and be moved by it.
(48:52):
You know, there's somethingthere that I'm looking for at
least, I don't know that I'vequite gotten it yet but how do
you ev, how, how to, how do youevoke that?
How do you get that?
That's, that really is kind ofwhat I'm, what I'm looking for,
because there's something deeplyagain, deeply human, about
deeply personal, about that,about that connection.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Jarnik, did you want to offer your question?
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yes, I was just very curious about the relevance of
religious objects or physicalityof objects.
In what ways is that for youperhaps important for your own
personal faith?
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, it's a funny thing because on the one hand,
they're just things.
Again, it's not magic.
We like to have this idea thatpriests are casting spells and
high-level wizards and whatnot,but they're just things, right,
they're things that we havegiven meaning to, whereas a
(49:53):
non-religious person or anon-Catholic might look at that
thing and not know that this isan incredibly sacred thing.
That doesn't mean that thing,and not know that this is an
incredibly sacred thing.
That doesn't mean that.
It's not that.
But so when I look at thesethings and that's partly why I
am so interested right now inmoving away from just the object
itself, but how the objectengages with the person, how the
(50:15):
object engages with thetradition, you know an example
forgive me for going onto thenerd side for a second.
An example I like to give is inLord of the Rings, where
Aragorn is given the reforgedsword right, the sword itself.
Anybody could hold it, anybodycould use it as a sword, but
only he, only the king, coulduse its authority to command the
(50:39):
army of the dead.
If that makes it's a weirdexample, I realize, but the
thing itself isn't as importantas the thing plus that tradition
, that veneration that has beengiven to it.
So it's sort of this comingtogether of, yeah, this coming
together that I find very, veryfascinating, very moving.
Speaker 5 (50:59):
I mean just to chip in there, because you're saying
about things getting value, andobviously without getting into
all the sort of like theology ofthis, which I don't think my
40-year-old REA level wouldactually do just like as a long
time.
Ask me about the synopticgospels.
Hey, fantastic, let's not goany deeper than that.
But I'm thinking of things likethe shroud of turin, obviously
(51:23):
a controversial object, but Iquite like you know the catholic
church's official positionwhich is, hey, if you like it,
you like it, we're not, we'renot making any about it, but if
it helps you focus or thinkabout things, well, great, it
serves a purpose.
I mean, I do an artwork and Ithink it was.
You know, probably it'd beinteresting.
You know I mean, oh, it's aforgery.
(51:44):
I don't think it was, I thinkit possibly was designed to be.
You know, just something likeall art to provoke a response
and to get people thinking.
But you know, obviously,because I think one thing people
find out about Catholicismperhaps is like things like,
things like you know, our thingabout relics, and it's like you
keep what it's like, well, yeah,you know.
(52:05):
And it's like, yes, okay, if youadd them all together, but it's
, you know, the whole point isthat there's, you know, the
official position is we're notsaying anything about them,
we're just saying and that's whyI think it is interesting that
there's always you were sayingabout, you know, trying to
distinguish between the sacredand the profane in terms of you
know, what's art and what's notart, and what's religious and
what, and I think that issomething there that it's like
(52:27):
you've got these objects andit's like are they holy objects
or are they like any piece ofart?
Speaker 1 (52:32):
just something to get you thinking yeah, it also
takes into account personalpreference.
Right like, for example, Ireally like heavy metal and I
don't think there's anybodyaround that would say that
that's a sacred work, but I findit very beautiful.
So I think there is this ideathat the subject matters, the
(52:54):
person seeing the thing reallymatters seeing the thing really
matters.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Well as far as a big fan of the sort of philosophy of
the minimalists, that youremove everything from it and
it's all completely subjective.
It's just what you get out ofit.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
So yes.
I very much, yeah, I very much,you know empathize with that
point of view and, ilana, youhave joined today.
Good to see you.
Did you have any comments orquestions you wanted to to offer
?
Speaker 8 (53:28):
oh, thank you so much for for speaking to us today.
I I think a lot of what I'mwhat I'm hearing and I think
what I'm kind of feeling is likea lot of the importance of
spirituality and just the waythat it's kind of like this
internal journey and it's itnever ends.
(53:50):
And I think that I feel thatalso when I'm making paintings,
it's kind of like thismeditative thing, um, and I
never kind of thought of art asa as like a sacred endeavor and
um, it's just kind of.
I feel like it's a lot, becauseI I don't think about I don't,
(54:11):
I have to be honest, I don'tthink about this stuff, but but
it's really, really cool, uh, tohear you speak about it,
because I feel like it justopened up a whole new, um, just
a whole new landscape for me.
Just it feels very, veryexpansive.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
So I really appreciate it yeah, thank you,
it is a lot yeah never ending.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Thank you, uh Nabundo did youhave a?
Question as well.
Speaker 6 (54:44):
I had a question and a comment.
I just wanted to say thank youvery much, father Harmon, for
this lovely conversation.
It's been very enlightening umfor the both of us, but for me,
um more specifically, it's beenvery enlightening because I'm I
mean, I've been a Catholic mywhole life um, and I'm still
(55:07):
currently actively practicing myfaith.
But I find that it's alwaysvery interesting um to hear from
priests about their variousvocations um that they choose to
pursue in addition to,obviously, the priestly vocation
.
So it's been very, veryfascinating, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Thank you so much for sharing as you have today.
It's been really, as Nabundoput and others have said, really
really enriching.
So thank you for your time andfor sharing from your heart as
you have.
I really look forward to seeingthe series that you're working
on as it unfolds.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yep, I'm excited to get to work on that.
Speaker 5 (55:51):
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, oh Nabundo, you'rereally rocking the girl in the
pearl earring look it's so you.
It's so, you Thanks.
Speaker 8 (56:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (56:03):
Thank you everybody, thank you Bye, bye, bye.
Speaker 2 (56:12):
There will be links in the show notes to learn more.
If you're intrigued by thispodcast, it would be much
appreciated if you could leave arating or review and tag
Warfare of Art and Law podcast.
Until next time, this isStephanie Draughty bringing you
Warfare of Art and Law.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember injustice anywhere
(56:33):
is a threat to justiceeverywhere.
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