March 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Desai joins Warrior Moms Amy Durham and Michele Davis to share a raw, powerful account of what happens when professional and personal crises collide. As a hospital director during COVID-19 and a father to a newborn born just two weeks before the nation shut down, Dr. Desai, author of Burning Out on the Covid Front Lines: A Doctor's Memoir of Fatherhood, Race, and Perseverance in the Pandemic, speaks honestly and will connect deeply with anyone who has felt pulled between competing responsibilities during times of trauma.
The conversation takes us through Dr. Desai's gradual recognition of his own burnout—the moment he realized something was wrong when he couldn't find joy in teaching his daughter to ride a bike without training wheels. "There was no joy," he shares candidly, describing how the adrenaline that carried healthcare workers through the first COVID surge eventually gave way to profound emotional and physical exhaustion.
What makes this episode particularly moving is Dr. Desai's willingness to discuss his mental health journey without filters. He describes the pivotal moment when his primary care physician confronted him: "You're struggling... when are we going to do something about it chemically?" This led to medication, therapy with someone he "couldn't outsmart," and a gradual path toward healing that continues today. His perspective on physician burnout gains additional impact through his discussion of Dr. Lorna Breen, an emergency physician who died by suicide during the pandemic—one of approximately 400 physicians who take their lives annually.
The conversation takes another profound turn as Dr. Desai discusses navigating the one-year anniversary of his father's death. With remarkable insight, he and the Warrior Moms hosts explore grief's physical manifestations, the challenges of intentionally creating space for mourning, and how to keep loved ones present through ongoing conversations and memories. His reflections on finding hope not as blind optimism but as meaningful connection within community offer wisdom for anyone navigating loss.
Whether you're a healthcare worker still processing pandemic trauma, a parent balancing professional demands with family needs, or someone walking through grief, this episode offers validation, wisdom, and a reminder that vulnerability—especially men's vulnerability—can be our greatest strength. Listen, share, and join the conversation about breaking silence around mental health struggles.
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
We'd love to hear from our followers!
Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
Facebook: Warrior Moms-The Club No One Wants to Be In
Instagram: WarriorMoms.SurvivingChildLoss
With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, welcome to Warrior Moms.
I am Amy Durham.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I am Michelle Davis.
We are so grateful that you arehere and we have a wonderful
guest today, the Director ofHospital Medicine at St Joseph's
Emory Hospital here in Atlanta,and we're so just pleased and
just so grateful that you wantedto join us, so welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Thank you, Michelle and Amy.
I'm really happy to be here and, first and foremost, I applaud
you for this podcast, yourefforts, vulnerability.
It's just a really timely andvery important topic all of this
, and I'm privileged to be herewith y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, thank you for being here.
Yes, so I didn't say your name.
So this is Dr Desai.
I've introduced you know, themain thing.
Yeah, so what started thisconversation was that we have Dr
Tsai is a fellow author and hecame out with a book called
(01:14):
Burning Out on the COVID FrontLines, a doctor's memoir of
fatherhood, race andperseverance in the pandemic.
And of course, with any traumaand just complicated issue
dealing with loss and life, it'sgoing to bring up all sorts of
(01:35):
emotions and then just theunknown of COVID, and so, of
course, with the trauma oflosing a child, we feel those
similar feelings and so wewanted to have this conversation
just to really talk about DrDesai's experience with that
really life-changing pandemic,of course, and leading a team
(02:00):
through that.
But then really more, what'simportant to Amy and I is just
that personal experience, bothin the workplace and then at
home.
And then how did that affectyou personally and both as a
doctor and then just as a human,how he's handled that grief.
So let's start what I wanted toask.
(02:21):
I think first was because I knowyou are a family man first and
foremost.
You love your work.
But that's where you started inthe book was talking about a
newborn and your wife and justso proud of your family.
(02:41):
And so how does those demandsof being a father and a husband
and then you had the pandemic,pandemic breakout and just those
intense emotions take thereaders through just those
beginning chapters that youtalked about in that unknown?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah, I mean the two weeks before the country shut
down is when my son was born,february 23, 2020.
As with any new life, anynewborn, any new addition to the
family, it's pure exhilaration.
We have a four year age gapbetween my daughter and my son,
so we had kind of forgotten whatnewborn life really felt like,
even though my wife and I areboth physicians.
(03:21):
So that was a rude awakening,those sleepless nights and all
of that that comes with it.
But you know, as I got joltedback into hospital life, it was
really just very much a rudeawakening, and it wasn't so much
that I was going back to work,I was going back to work in a
whole different world.
And when we talk about grieving, you know grief can be so much.
(03:43):
We're losing people, we'relosing experiences.
But the hindsight's clear thatmy wife was grieving, that her
maternity leave was not going tobe what it would have been
before Our pre-K.
Our daughter, who's in, youknow, pre-k, whatever you want
to call it was now homebound.
She was taking care of two kids.
Homebound.
She was taking care of two kids.
For me, I was jolted back intothe hospital where I wanted to
(04:06):
be at home to make sure they'reokay at home.
But also I wanted to be in thehospital.
I could never turn off betweenthe two and there were times,
truthfully, where I know Iwasn't fully checked in as a dad
, as I should be at home,because I was so focused on
impending doom or the doom thatwas going on and I didn't only
know often what I was bringinghome, but at the same time,
(04:27):
there was a lot of adrenalinethat got us through that first
surge.
But it wasn't until that summerof 2020 when I could feel my
adrenaline waning and we knewCOVID was here to stay, and
little did we know we were goingto have four subsequent very
big surges and nothing was overby any means.
But I started to feelemotionally drained, mentally
(04:49):
drained, and I tell thisanecdote in the book also one
day in the early summer, all mydaughter wanted to do was to
learn how to ride her bike, andthat was daddy's thing to do
with her, and I wanted to be.
She wanted me to come home andjust take her outside, and
that's the first thing shewanted to do.
I was exhausted, I was drainedand I was really internally
pushing myself just to getthrough the day.
(05:09):
I could feel something wasn'tright.
And when I was outside with herI had to fake getting through
her riding her first pedalwithout training wheels, because
all I wanted to do was go inand lay on the couch and at that
point I knew something was off.
And you know, fast forward thatin multiple arguments at home,
tense times at home, no one wastruly happy and relaxed, and not
(05:32):
that you should be when youhave two little kids.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
There was no joy.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
No, there really was no joy.
Thank you for saying that therewas no joy.
How can we sugarcoat any ofthat?
There was no joy and we wereall robbed of that, all of us in
different ways.
So a roundabout way to get backto the question is that's how
it all started for me and that'show my mental health journey,
everything sort of came tofruition that summer and led me
(05:57):
to my own personal journey toget help and start to get better
.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That was one of the it was kind of near the area
that you were talking about.
That really struck me where yousaid self-care in any case
requires some attention, whichcan be difficult for physicians
and their teams in a pandemic,particularly those on the
frontline.
And then you continued to havethis conversation with a
colleague of yours who asked youwhat you know, what are you
(06:25):
doing for relaxation?
And of course I'm sure you knowthe response, which was to go
grocery shopping and to go toCostco alone.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I mean, I love Costco .
I really do.
No one can ever take my Costcoaway from me.
But yeah, that's what I wasdoing.
I was busted, I did not doanything.
I was not doing anything, I wastoo busy.
I kind of thrive in thatcaregiver role, if y'all can
relate to that, like you likecaring for people You're a
teacher, michelle you like thoserelationships, you like taking
(06:55):
care of people, and doctors arevery similar.
In being a leader, I liketaking care of my team
(07:28):
no-transcript doctor that tookher life and that that really
struck you.
Dr Lorna Breen passed fromsuicide in the spring of 2020.
And reading her story from NewYork City in the New York Times
(07:50):
in summer of 2020, I mean,michelle and Amy, I kid you, not
reading every paragraph I had avisceral reaction and I was
clenching up saying this couldbe any one of us, any one of us.
All she wanted to do is fixthings.
She was trying to fix theunfixable.
She was trying to do a good job.
Nothing mattered, everythingwas against her and she tried to
(08:11):
fight through her mental healthchallenges.
All of that came through.
She took time off, but she didnot win that battle.
And reading that story and fastforward where I'm at now, all my
author proceeds from the bookare going to that foundation,
the Lorna Breen HeroesFoundation, and I'm very aligned
as an ambassador.
In fact, tomorrow I'm going forthe day to DC.
It's National Healthcare WorkerWellbeing Day and that
(08:33):
foundation and anotherorganization are putting on a
whole day long symposium.
So that should be fun and veryinformative and building a
community.
But yeah, you know, 400physicians a year die by suicide
, so let's imagine the griefwith that.
Oh my.
God I know three personally.
Can you imagine that?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Do you know any of them?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yes, yes, amy, yes, and it's always people you would
not think are struggling.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Well, we started that, you knowbefore you got on the call.
Amy, we're sitting herevisiting and talking, and it was
just, you know, intuitive Amyand I have gotten to know each
other so well and she juststopped and was like Well, how
are you, michelle?
You know that, just that, thatbeing seen, I guess, is just so
important, and I think youtalked about that with your
(09:24):
colleague that had recognizedthere's something different and
we need to do something aboutthat.
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Good question.
So ultimately, you know, I hadkind of this epiphany with my
wife saying you know, it's timeI think I need, I need some, I
need extra, I need something, Ineed something, whether it's
medication, therapy, all of theabove.
I need something.
And it was not easy for me tosay that out loud, as you can
imagine, it's never is.
My wife was like okay, good,let's do it.
(09:54):
It was simple, it was noresistance.
I walked into my primary carephysician and I called it a
routine follow-up or something.
And the first thing he asked mewas so how are you doing?
And I said I'm okay.
He's like you're struggling.
I said yes, he's like okay,when are we going to do
something about it chemically?
It's time.
And we went back and forth.
I'm like how'd you know?
And he said I see you walkingaround the hospital we work in
(10:15):
the same healthcare system andhe says you look miserable, you
look exhausted, you lookdefeated and that's no way to
live and we need to do something.
And I felt much lighter afterleaving that doctor's
appointment and I talk about itin the book.
I've been through medicationchanges and I'm at a good place
now.
That itself is a journey initself.
(10:36):
I didn't initially add ontherapy.
I did a year later.
Truth be told, I had seen oneof those employee assistance
programs, what we all have inour respective employers
throughout the years,intermittently for anger
management.
Like you know, sometimes youget home, you don't have enough
left to give and you're justkind of you know frustrated, and
it's not a good combination, aswe all know.
(10:57):
So I never felt that thosetherapists could have done, did
enough and went deep enough.
For me and this is going to bea saying I don't know if you've
heard this before, but it's veryimportant for people that are
emotionally intelligent, whichobviously you are and I'm sure
your listeners are too is thatyou have to find a therapist
that you cannot outsmart.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Oh my goodness, yes, yes, you're so right.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Wow, that is really good.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
That's powerful right .
Yes, that is so right.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Wow, that is really right.
That's powerful, right, yes,that is so powerful.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And I didn't make that up.
I heard it at one of thosewellness conferences or whatever
I've been to and I've never letgo of that.
But the truth is I'm prettysavvy.
I know how to pivot aconversation on that and I think
most of us do right.
But I want a therapist that'sgoing to call me out on my stuff
and make me realize, like no,no, no, no, no, no, no.
That argument you had with yourwife, you're not going to get a
(11:50):
there there, pat, pat, you'regoing to be like the way you
responded.
You could have done this.
That's what I need, that's whatwe all need.
So I finally found the rightmatch.
So what I'm getting at is it'sokay to change therapists,
because you really have to findthe right match that's going to
be able to go deep, handle it,bring you back, do it all.
Not an easy job.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
No sure.
Well, and you and I had talkedabout that, this is a really
heavy week for you because, thisis the one year anniversary of
your dad's passing and I'm sosorry.
I know you know they talk aboutthe loss of a parent is losing
a piece of our past, and I knowthose that the missing is just
(12:34):
as Amy and I know it's so hard.
How did you know the loss ofyour dad, compounded with those
you know, several years oftrauma of COVID and your own
mental anguish?
How's that compounded?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
He was my number one supporter and he lived locally.
He was cared for in ourhospital in a system I work for.
We talked every day.
He adored my kids and when Isay adored, I mean they could do
no wrong in his eyes, just thepure, pure love that he had for
them.
But we knew he was declining.
(13:08):
But he was always compensated.
But at four weeks of anguish hewent through after having a fall
.
He was only 74.
And it was a privilege andhonor to be on the sidelines as
a physician and son here,navigating, moving mountains,
making things happen, advocatingfor him.
But it was a lot of.
It was kind of the sameemotions where you go through
(13:29):
this adrenaline.
You're in the weeds of it, youdo it and you know what's coming
.
But and then when you know it'scoming, you're like, okay, you
know what this has to end.
I knew as a physician hissuffering had to end.
But then the emotions as a sonis like, wait, what?
What am I, I doing?
What are we doing?
But I saw him suffer and I knewhe had lost what he had, what
(13:51):
he was, in many ways.
And the best part for what it'sworth is two days before he
passed.
He rallied and he said I'm done, this is what I want.
I want hospice.
You guys got to listen to me.
And he even pulled me aside andsaid don't let anybody change
my plan.
This is what to me.
And he even pulled me aside andsaid don't let anybody change
my plan.
This is what I want, and he saidthat because he knew my brother
, who's also a physician, wouldbe a little bit more emotional.
(14:11):
Not that I'm not emotional, butthere's always, you know,
families going through this.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Oh, I'm that person in my family.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I always feel like there's always somebody that
wants not ready right, andthat's just the way it is not
ready, right, and that's justthe way it is.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So he, really, like my husband's always told
everyone amy is not in charge ofmy plug, she won't do it, she
will not respect my wishes, andhe's right.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's terrible, right it's hard, but you know he gave
us the biggest gift because hemade that decision yes thank you
and I knew at the time he wasgiving us a gift, but I didn't
realize it till now and I kindof, I guess, turn it back to.
(14:52):
I would love to hear from y'allin this discussion is there's
times when this week and goinginto this week, I'm like okay,
I'm okay, I think I got this.
And then there's times I'm likelooking at pictures or
something or old text messagesand it's like wait what?
And then there's a middleground where I'm like, okay, I'm
feeling okay, but I kind offeel iffy, but I can get through
(15:13):
it, but what am I supposed tobe feeling and which feelings
should I hold?
Like, how should I act on it?
You know, does that make sensewhat I'm asking?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
and this is where my motto comes in Feel the feels.
If you're sad, you're sad.
If you're happy, you're happy.
Feel those moments.
You know, I know there's timesthat you can't actually.
You know you're in the middleof something and you can't
actually feel everything.
But try, you know, if you'rehaving a bad day, just, or a sad
day, just be sad.
Just embrace that moment andjust feel it, because if you
(15:45):
push it down and push it downand push it down, that's when
it's going to come out evenbigger.
If you're happy, it's okay tobe happy.
Have a happy day, enjoy, laugh,smile, enjoy your kids running
around and you know sometimesthat sadness pops in out of that
but just allow yourself to, inthat moment, acknowledge the
feeling and continue to feel it.
(16:07):
To me, that's the healthiestway to be.
Yeah, I mean, you have to beintentional about it.
You just have to be intentionalabout taking that time and
acknowledging I mean, I'veintentionally, and that makes
sense.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Thank you, Amy.
I've intentionally placedmyself on a very busy work
schedule Thursday and Friday.
Thursday is the day and part ofme feels a little selfish for
doing that.
But I know why I'm doing thatbecause I don't want to be in
the gutter all day.
Truthfully, and I'm the type,if I'm idle on a day like that,
I could easily be in the gutter,which I like to call, and
frankly, I don't think thatwould be wise for me.
(16:42):
Is that selfish?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
No, I'm exactly the same way.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Oh, that's Michelle.
Yeah, she's busy, busy, busy,go, go, go.
I, on the other hand, I'm likedon't make me do anything, don't
plan anything, just let meembrace that moment.
Let it come, let me feel it,let me embrace it and I'll
decide what I do at that time.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
You know just, we're just so different in that aspect
, which is great, but I want tosavor the moment too.
It's a weird contradiction, Idon't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
What I try to do is just be intentional about the
moments where I am going tobreak down.
So I literally carve a space inmy day leading up to those big
moments.
And what Amy and I have figuredout is a lot of times there's
just so much anticipation forthose anniversary days and then
the anniversary days kind of youend up being okay because
you've done so much, you knowyou have so much anxiety and
work, and then it's the afterdays that are really hard,
(17:46):
because you know um you're notin the mix of doing something to
get ready and all of a suddenit's over and so your brain and
your heart kind of relaxes a bit.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
But I that's a good point.
The after days it's like aballoon pop.
It's over and it's like whatnow?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
what I'm almost.
What do I do?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
after the one year mark.
Now, like am I supposed to beokay?
And they say it takes a fullyear to grieve and then it gets
easier.
You know every, we've all heardthat right, we've all heard
that right.
The four seasons, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
But then it's like what do you do after that?
Yeah, and truthfully, everysingle one of us grief moms in
this group.
It's really year two and I hateto even say that.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Please say it.
No, we need to embrace this.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But year two is honestly.
I mean, of course, year one ishard in so many ways, but year
two you come out of this cloudand that's when the missing is
really, really heavy and, likeyou said, you're seeing pictures
, you're able to go to thosethings which maybe that first
year you didn't as much andpeople aren't asking about it
like they did that first year.
(18:59):
And so there's this loneliness,this space of needing somebody
to ask about it, and then all ofthat.
But I call it just puttingmyself in deep grief, where I
carve out time once a day and Istill do that today where I
intentionally am looking atpictures of Carter or I write
(19:22):
about it or I'll listen to musicthat's intentionally going to
connect me to him and just myemotions about it.
And that sense, because I'mlike you where I have to be busy
, busy, busy.
But that gives me sort of this.
I am somewhat in control of itbecause I know when I'm going to
do it.
Here's my time, this is where Igive myself that space to then
(19:47):
save for it.
It's a lie.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
That year mark.
It changes nothing except forthe fact it's another day on the
calendar, but it's not like onday, one year, one day, you're
magically better, it's notMm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah, david Kessler.
Do y'all know that name, davidKessler, with grief?
Have y'all heard him speak?
I'm sidetracking, but I heardhim speak in was it January, I
don't know?
Sometime recently through StJoseph's Anyways, they had this
speaker series and one quoteabout grief and I went to the
session on losing a parent andhe said you enter in the middle
(20:37):
of somebody's movie and theyleave in the middle of your
movie and you're never going tohave enough time.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That just hits hard, doesn't it?
It really does, sorry, no, Imean it's good, but it doesn't
solve anything.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It just kind of puts things in perspective.
Like this is it.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Like, oh great, now what?
I guess one of the things thatI wanted to ask you about in
this.
You have this hard week.
You're thinking about it, youmade a day on Thursday.
That's really busy.
What's that doing to youphysically?
What we've noticed is just thatphysicality of grief.
Physicality of grief.
(21:30):
We have really felt that.
Certainly we have not heardanyone talk to us, and books
that we read about our traumadidn't talk about that.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So that's not talked about much.
You think Then is that anuntapped area?
The physicality of grief?
That's a really good way ofputting it, and no one's ever
brought that up to me, and I'mso glad you are.
The first thing I think aboutfrom a physicality and physical
health standpoint is my sleep.
Sleep is forever.
I'm also at baseline.
(21:55):
I have sleep.
I'm not the best sleeper.
I take melatonin.
I've done sleep aids before.
I don't do those anymore.
I took ashwagandha as asupplement but want to say and I
told my wife this too the lastyear the dreams are so vivid.
He's in my dreams constantly,good and bad.
I know, I guess, I guess, Iknow I am.
(22:19):
You're right.
I can't discount that.
But sometimes, believe it ornot, I say can the dreams stop
for a night or two, because it'sexhausting.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, and you wake up and it's a lot.
It's just a lot.
And how do you go?
Oh, I got to go brush my teeth.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I know Totally.
And then the whole sleepscience and all I question am I
getting quality rest?
Is my brain really resting oris this the way my brain is
processing this?
And I wish I had the answer tothat, because I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, no, and that is um, that's something.
And I think with child loss, we, amy and I, talk about this a
lot.
Just, I mean, we are exhaustedmost days.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Really.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And I walk around and you're happy and cheerful and
you know you have a wonderfultime on a lot of levels.
But it's just right underneath.
I mean, the sorrow is justright there and you're
constantly battling it, likeyour brain is just you know,
because you're just thinkingabout it nonstop.
Even though you're constantlybattling it, like your brain is
just you know, because you'rejust thinking about it nonstop,
even though you're not trying toUm so that takes extra energy
(23:33):
because so when you come home inthe evening you're exhausted,
like you're physically drained,right yeah.
So I think you know staying busyfor sure helps me, but then
carving that space to just findtime to be with your dad when
you're awake, you know likehaving that, you know being able
(23:55):
to just.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
You know what my therapist told me to do, and
maybe y'all do this and y'allcan if you're comfortable
sharing.
But he said journal, before yougo to bed, something about your
dad, um, and see if that helpsdisplace the dreams a bit.
And I truth be told, I'm notcompliant with that advice.
Every night I just can't, weall.
You know it's hard sometimes,um, but I guess a few nights I
(24:19):
did do it.
Maybe it made a difference.
And I'm not trying to say thedreams are bad, but sometimes
it's just the um.
It's really hard the nextmorning to wake up and we're
saying well, how'd you sleep,how was your night?
You know, I'm just like vividdreams and I sound like a broken
record and I don't want to keepsaying the same thing every
morning and it's kind ofisolating.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, well, maybe it's.
Maybe the journal needs to bethe day after, because maybe
that is.
That is what are you seeing inwhat's your dad showing you
which would be kind of aninteresting journey to if your
dad was your biggest fan andcheerleader that maybe these
images are trying to teach yousomething.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right after Alec passed we started the Alec
Journal and I had one and mydaughter Layla had one, and
anytime we wanted to talk to himwe would write to him in this
journal and sometimes Laylawould draw pictures of her and
Alec or whatever I mean becauseshe was what seven?
(25:21):
So, like I said, she was stillin the picture drawing phase and
writing phase, but it did helpget it out of my head.
You know, sometimes thosethoughts and what you want to
say is in your head and then youcreate this conversation and it
just gets stuck in there.
It made me crazy a little bit,so just getting it out on paper
(25:44):
and it's almost like he couldread it, but it was like me
talking to him and sometimes Icould hear his responses.
But anyway, yeah, that Alecjournal really, really helped
both Layla and I through a lotof different times.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I wonder if you did that, even with your kids, of
writing to your dad.
Um, that, I know that's, that'sa way that I also forced myself
to be with Carter is in justeveryday conversations.
I'm I'm really intentional lesslikely anymore because it's so
(26:20):
now part of my conversation, butoh yeah, carter used to do da
da, da, da, um and yeah, um, andyou know so I love that, amy,
that journal and doing that withyour daughter.
I just think that is sobeautiful and I'm sure it was so
hard at first and I bet youshared a lot of tears, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
We get it.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , one of the things that greta
said that just reminds me, youknow, if if you were kind of
talking about your dad with yourkids is.
I remember I was taking Gretato school Amy, you've heard this
(27:13):
, but, and you know I was cryingit was probably two weeks into,
after we had lost Carter and Iwasn't back at school yet.
But Greta was back at schooland I'm dropping her off, and
the first thing she asked waswell, mom, I'm going to school.
When are you going to go backto school, you know, and I
thought, well, yeah, here's thislittle eight-year-old and she's
(27:35):
facing the day.
And so I thought, yep, okay,that goes on my to-do list.
And then she said mom, you'reso lucky.
And I said why is?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
that she said well, you had Carter for 17 years.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I only had him for eight and I think that, like
that journal, amy, I bet you yougot to see, you know Alec
through Layla's eyes and thingsthat you know she would say that
that could be kind ofinteresting to do.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I'll go back and look at those two over time,
or is that kind of a what'sthat?
What's the right recipe on that?
I guess it's everyone's theirown person on that.
I don't know either.
I don't you know.
When I have gone back andlooked at some of my previous
journal entries whatever theyare I'm like, oh, I said that,
really, those are my thoughts.
It's like, oh, I don't know ifI want to, or it's like that was
(28:28):
dark.
Let's not read that today.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, that that was dark.
Let's not read that today.
Well, and one of the thingsthat you talked about in your
book of you know, having to gain, you know, both this mental
resilience and emotionalresilience, and just to
persevere through the pandemic,and then, of course, with the
loss of your dad.
How has those two things reallychallenged your idea of what is
(28:56):
perseverance, and how do we, ashumans, actually make ourselves
persevere?
What is that?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That's a really good question and I don't know that I
have the right answer questionand I don't know that I have the
right answer For me.
You know, from a COVIDstandpoint and all, I think I
just had to look at whatmattered to me and that was
family and at the time and stillis obviously professional
career and sustaining that.
And, as my therapist tells me,how can we keep you on the best
(29:28):
track that you want to be orthis?
You know we're all thesebeautiful, beautiful people that
we are and I'm deviating fromthat through these, whatever's
going on, how do I get myselfback on that track and be this
person who I want to be?
That's what you know throughCOVID and all you know, through
my dad and that journey andpersevering, I think I'm still
(29:50):
figuring it out.
You know it's interesting.
My years before my dad passed,my wife and I were talking and
you know she's a very strongperson and she said you know if
and when, more so when ourparents pass we were not gonna.
We can't completely break downto a point where we're not
functional.
And I said no, no, no, and Ithink she said that looking
(30:11):
after me because she knows I'mprobably more fragile in many
ways?
No, and I think she said thatlooking after me, because she
knows I'm probably more fragilein many ways, as strong as I am
more fragile.
So in many ways, you know, Ichose to march forward and you
know the only other way isincluding him in our day-to-day
conversations, not avoiding thathe's not here, you know.
(30:33):
Including him with my daughterwhen it's happening, or my son.
You know the feelings coming intalking about him, even my now
five year old.
The other night he was sayingWell, I want to go.
I know he's dead, but I want togo visit him and I want to take
a plane or a bus and car.
And what do you want to do whenyou visit him?
I just want to give him a bighug and I was like you know, so
they get it in their own way.
(30:55):
So I'm hopeful we can keep thatconversation going.
But honestly, Michelle, that'sthe only way I've known how to
persevere is include him and notmake him forgotten.
And that's 360 days in.
That's where I'm at right now,I guess 160 days in.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
That's where I'm at right now, I guess.
Good, yes, how has you know?
You have a chapter aboutcommunity and solidarity and you
really helped your team cometogether and it really sounded
like they rallied around you asa leader as well, and so,
(31:31):
thinking about what you learnedabout community and solidarity
through the pandemic, what haveyou learned about that in this
real personal loss with yourfather?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
team, a camaraderie, you know, and I always say, amy,
I'm sorry I don't know if youryour career, background and
profession, but I know Michelleis a teacher.
But teachers and healthcareworkers on the frontline are
very parallel in what theyexperience doing what they do.
But you know, having my group,having that group that's
(32:04):
carrying you through, we mayexperience professional
differences, which we will andwe always do but at the end of
the day we have each other'sback and I think I'm proud to
say I've set that tone from thebeginning that we are still
humans and we're going to alwaysfocus on family first and what
our personal needs are.
When I see somebody not doingthat or somebody sees me doing
(32:25):
that, it's going to be no.
And when I was going through it,they're like stop, you're not
doing this, we're going to dothis, you're not doing this,
we're going to do this, you'regoing to go away right now and
take care of yourself.
And it took me a week or two toget into that zone and then I
realized you know what, I'mgoing to allow this and I'm
going to be taken care of bythem right now.
And it's a very good feelingactually knowing you have that
(32:46):
and that really kind of groundedme, especially last year,
knowing that's the stabilitythat I had during that time that
I really needed.
So that's that's how I managedthat.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
What advice would you give, you know, for all of us,
family and friends you know,that have gone through child
loss.
What do you, what do you say tothem in terms of what could
they do that helped you, familyand friends and co-workers, both
in the pandemic and with theloss of your dad?
(33:19):
What's some advice you couldgive listeners in terms of you
know, if it's not them that'sdealing with the grief, but
other friends, and how can theyhelp?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
yeah, um, I think there's a lot of us that like to
hide behind the idea of scaredto bring it up, scared to bring
up that topic, the elephant inthe room.
And I've been a victim of notdoing that in certain situations
and also one that I was hopingsomebody would bring the
(33:53):
elephant, and they're avoiding,trying to make things
semi-normal, which makes thingsworse.
So I would say bring up theelephant in the room, and
there's ways to do that.
You don't want to be so abruptabout it.
We're like so how are you doing?
Your dad died yesterday.
What is it like?
Maybe that tact isn't great,but look, I know, look, say look
(34:18):
, this is awful, this is theworst thing that could have
happened, and we can't sugarcoatany of it and know that I'm
here and I'm feeling it with youas much as I can and I'll be
with you, whatever you want meto do through this.
But we're going to get throughthis and I don't know.
I think it's important to bringit up and not ignore it.
Honestly, we have toacknowledge it as much as we can
, if that's the best advice Ithink I can give, and I give
that to myself.
I'm saying this to myself too,because there's times I pretend
(34:39):
everything's okay and it's not,and you know, we get in our
grind.
My wife and I get in our dailygrind, and then we're like, oh
what?
So I know none of us are alonein that.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
We all feel that, right, yes, and then a week
later you're like you said thisthe other week, why did you say
that I was feeling this likewhat?
Why didn't you tell me anyways,exactly, exactly.
I love in the in your memoirthat you ended, you know, really
talking about this idea of welland you, you weaved it all the
way through of just hope in therecovery.
You know, both of you knowdealing with all these four
(35:18):
waves of the pandemic and lossof life and all of the
challenges, of course, of whenyou talked about those dark days
, just I really felt that therewas just this internal hope.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Talk to us about that Hope that everybody hope that
there's people that are stillgoing to do the right thing.
And hope can mean differentthings for different people and
I've learned that you know, ifI'm taking care of a patient
who's end of life with cancer, Ican still give them hope, and
that hope may just be keepingtheir pain control and getting
them home to their bed and notlaying in the hospital.
(35:59):
That's the hope I'm giving themand that's okay too.
So when I say what you know, Ithink saying hopeful, I think
the hopeful part of me isultimately good health starts in
a community, right, whetherit's in a community where
there's a neighborhood, a church, a school.
And when I define good health,it's not only blood pressure,
diabetes, all that stuff, it'severything about us.
(36:20):
You know the whole psychosocialpicture, all of it.
And the hope that I getsurrounded with is that we can
surround ourselves with theright community that's going to
help propel all of us keepmoving forward.
And that community we have, thesupply demand of it will change
over time.
But finding that core communitythat you know you can depend on
and I have that in manydifferent ways and for that I'm
(36:42):
blessed and I want to keephaving that and I hope I can
sustain that, whatever we all donext.
But that's the hope.
Because, I will say this,healthcare is so complex and
both of you know this, and thesystem's not getting easier, and
the things that keep megrounded when the days when I'm
feeling the most frustrated withthe way our system's failing us
, is the community that we have,and that's more on the smaller
(37:05):
scale, but that also matterssignificantly, because none of
us can change the bigger system.
But the small bites that we cando, we have a little bit more
control over.
So that's that's kind of mymessage on that.
Am I hopeful?
Every day?
I have my moments where I'mprobably not and I'm a little
more dismal, but I think it'srepositioning what hope really
looks like for us, and that's avery intentional practice, right
(37:28):
.
That takes me, that takes me alot of time to do as well.
So, yeah, it can change too,right.
I mean hope can't.
Hope doesn't mean everything'sgoing to be positive, and I kind
of make fun because sometimesmy wife's like let's go for a
picnic in the park.
I'm like you're so pollyanna,what are we doing, you know?
But everything can't bepollyanna, right, like we're
(37:51):
just everything's not gonna be,um, so finding hope and
something like that.
So you know, but everythingcan't be Pollyanna, right, like
we're just everything's notgonna be.
So finding hope in somethinglike that, so you know, that's
what I can think about these endof life situations, all of that
comes up.
It's like we really can findsome hope in that and it's just
reframing our mindset throughthat.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I love that.
Well, any final thoughts justabout deep grief or just your
lessons that you learned about?
Yeah, the grief journey is.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
You don't know how bad it is until you really go
through a significant loss.
No matter what you read, whatinterviews you've seen, movies
you've seen, you really don'tknow what it's like until you've
been.
And I almost feel like metalking to y'all.
It's like you know you shouldnever compare your despair,
right?
I've heard Robin Roberts on ABCGood Morning America say that
we should never compare ourdespair.
(38:39):
But knowing that y'all havelost a child like my grief in my
mind should be in like downhere, because y'all have gone
through a lot worse.
But we're all dealing withcollective grief differently on
that.
So I fully admire and respectthat you have started this
platform and this communication.
It's warrior moms and I lovethat you've included a dad here
(39:01):
and I hope you'll continue toinclude more dads, because
there's too many dads at leastmales that I'm trying to focus
on, to talk about their mentalhealth and really open.
That can up a little bit,because I've had to embrace that
journey too and it can.
It is very powerful.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It is so powerful.
Amy had her husband on a coupleepisodes ago and it was such
gosh.
It was for me personally.
It was so powerful just to evenin the way he responded.
It was slower, more reallythoughtful.
He was really thinking sodeeply about the questions and
(39:37):
answers and I got so much out ofit and I feel the same about
today.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Thank you.
How do we break that ice?
That's a whole otherconversation we need to have.
But I want to work with y'all.
Can we stay connected on this?
(40:05):
Because, um, men's mentalhealth, all of that's a huge,
huge passion of mine and thatembracing that vulnerability and
more, I mean we could have hadthis conversation going on and
on.
But really, like the workyou're doing, um, I hope you're
finding it fulfilling, knowingwhat you're doing, and I have to
ask does this help you heal?
Partly.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, a thousand percent.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
It doesn't feel like a chore doing this.
I'm hoping right.
This is a passion project.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
What?
What I love is that Amy and Ihave this natural rhythm.
We never talked about it butneither of us, just in our
personalities, are really stuckon.
Oh, it has to be Monday at sixand we have to do this many this
week and so forth both of usand it works well just for our
partnership.
And I think in this deep griefthat's really given us this
(40:53):
space, that okay, when we have atopic and we're really
energized and we're feeling goodwith where we are in our grief,
like this week, we're doingthree that we're going to space
out, but we might have to gosometimes three, four weeks.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, no, I know Right, michelle.
I mean like over the holidaysgosh, I don't know how many we
didn't get very many out at allLike I was having bad days and
down in the dumps and thenMichelle had other days.
It's just, you know, sometimestwo grieving women with busy
schedules, it's hard to gettogether.
But emotionally sometimes we'rejust not ready to even talk to
(41:31):
anybody.
But we do our best, don't we?
We do our best.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Just emotional Ups and downs and I love that you
talk about that openly.
I love that you mentioned thatopenly.
We have to.
Yeah Well, you clearly aredoing what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, and I think that just you know breaking
those barriers of talking aboutit, but then also that
realization that this is, likeyou had said earlier, it's hard
work, right, and and it'sintentional work, Like you do
have to face it and and that'sheavy and exhausting and, um, I,
(42:11):
I would love to keep visitingabout this, Like you said we
will.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
let's do that, can we ?
I'm always, I'm not, I'm notinviting myself back, but I'm
always ready.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
You can be like, like .
Oprah's Dr Oz, you can be our.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I'm all about it.
Did Jeremy tell you to say that?
Because I am all about that.
Like I'm ready, sign me up,give me the contract, I'm there.
Yes, yes yes, yes, yes, yes.
I love that.
I love that she was the best,wasn't she?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
You worked on your emotional space.
You worked on your emotionalspace.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
It worked on your mental.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Isn't that awesome.
That's so good.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
That's why we you know, don you know we did a
photo shoot for our book acouple weeks ago and we all had
superhero capes on.
You know that idea that this isat times grief feels so like.
You have to have thissuperhuman strength, and in the
middle of your week I'm just sograteful that you one wanted to
(43:19):
talk to us, but that you putyour cape on to join us.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Well, it was meant to be.
And you know, michelle, youtexted me today saying are you
sure you're okay doing thistonight?
I'm like, oh, I'm very sure I'mokay.
So I needed this as much asanybody.
So it was meant to be.
And you know, when we weretalking about doing this podcast
a few weeks ago, I think I mayhave even subconsciously planned
it, saying this is the rightweek to do this.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou.
It is.
(43:43):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, if you just lean in and let it happen.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, thank you for joining us, and.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Amy, as always, thank you, bye bye, bye.
Hi, welcome to Warrior Moms.
I am Amy Durham.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I am Michelle Davis.
We are so grateful that you arehere and we have a wonderful
guest today, the Director ofHospital Medicine at St Joseph's
Emory Hospital here in Atlanta,and we're so just pleased and
just so grateful that you wantedto join us, so welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Thank you, Michelle and Amy.
I'm really happy to be here and, first and foremost, I applaud
you for this podcast, yourefforts, vulnerability.
It's just a really timely andvery important topic all of this
, and I'm privileged to be herewith y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, thank you for being here.
Yes, so I didn't say your name.
So this is Dr Desai.
I've introduced you know, themain thing.
Yeah, so what started thisconversation was that we have Dr
Tsai is a fellow author and hecame out with a book called
(01:14):
Burning Out on the COVID FrontLines, a doctor's memoir of
fatherhood, race andperseverance in the pandemic.
And of course, with any traumaand just complicated issue
dealing with loss and life, it'sgoing to bring up all sorts of
(01:35):
emotions and then just theunknown of COVID, and so, of
course, with the trauma oflosing a child, we feel those
similar feelings and so wewanted to have this conversation
just to really talk about DrDesai's experience with that
really life-changing pandemic,of course, and leading a team
(02:00):
through that.
But then really more, what'simportant to Amy and I is just
that personal experience, bothin the workplace and then at
home.
And then how did that affectyou personally and both as a
doctor and then just as a human,how he's handled that grief.
So let's start what I wanted toask.
(02:21):
I think first was because I knowyou are a family man first and
foremost.
You love your work.
But that's where you started inthe book was talking about a
newborn and your wife and justso proud of your family.
(02:41):
And so how does those demandsof being a father and a husband
and then you had the pandemic,pandemic breakout and just those
intense emotions take thereaders through just those
beginning chapters that youtalked about in that unknown?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah, I mean the two weeks before the country shut
down is when my son was born,february 23, 2020.
As with any new life, anynewborn, any new addition to the
family, it's pure exhilaration.
We have a four year age gapbetween my daughter and my son,
so we had kind of forgotten whatnewborn life really felt like,
even though my wife and I areboth physicians.
(03:21):
So that was a rude awakening,those sleepless nights and all
of that that comes with it.
But you know, as I got joltedback into hospital life, it was
really just very much a rudeawakening, and it wasn't so much
that I was going back to work,I was going back to work in a
whole different world.
And when we talk about grieving, you know grief can be so much.
(03:43):
We're losing people, we'relosing experiences.
But the hindsight's clear thatmy wife was grieving, that her
maternity leave was not going tobe what it would have been
before Our pre-K.
Our daughter, who's in, youknow, pre-k, whatever you want
to call it was now homebound.
She was taking care of two kids.
Homebound.
She was taking care of two kids.
For me, I was jolted back intothe hospital where I wanted to
(04:06):
be at home to make sure they'reokay at home.
But also I wanted to be in thehospital.
I could never turn off betweenthe two and there were times,
truthfully, where I know Iwasn't fully checked in as a dad
, as I should be at home,because I was so focused on
impending doom or the doom thatwas going on and I didn't only
know often what I was bringinghome, but at the same time,
(04:27):
there was a lot of adrenalinethat got us through that first
surge.
But it wasn't until that summerof 2020 when I could feel my
adrenaline waning and we knewCOVID was here to stay, and
little did we know we were goingto have four subsequent very
big surges and nothing was overby any means.
But I started to feelemotionally drained, mentally
(04:49):
drained, and I tell thisanecdote in the book also one
day in the early summer, all mydaughter wanted to do was to
learn how to ride her bike, andthat was daddy's thing to do
with her, and I wanted to be.
She wanted me to come home andjust take her outside, and
that's the first thing shewanted to do.
I was exhausted, I was drainedand I was really internally
pushing myself just to getthrough the day.
(05:09):
I could feel something wasn'tright.
And when I was outside with herI had to fake getting through
her riding her first pedalwithout training wheels, because
all I wanted to do was go inand lay on the couch and at that
point I knew something was off.
And you know, fast forward thatin multiple arguments at home,
tense times at home, no one wastruly happy and relaxed, and not
(05:32):
that you should be when youhave two little kids.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
There was no joy.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
No, there really was no joy.
Thank you for saying that therewas no joy.
How can we sugarcoat any ofthat?
There was no joy and we wereall robbed of that, all of us in
different ways.
So a roundabout way to get backto the question is that's how
it all started for me and that'show my mental health journey,
everything sort of came tofruition that summer and led me
(05:57):
to my own personal journey toget help and start to get better
.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That was one of the it was kind of near the area
that you were talking about.
That really struck me where yousaid self-care in any case
requires some attention, whichcan be difficult for physicians
and their teams in a pandemic,particularly those on the
frontline.
And then you continued to havethis conversation with a
colleague of yours who asked youwhat you know, what are you
(06:25):
doing for relaxation?
And of course I'm sure you knowthe response, which was to go
grocery shopping and to go toCostco alone.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I mean, I love Costco .
I really do.
No one can ever take my Costcoaway from me.
But yeah, that's what I wasdoing.
I was busted, I did not doanything.
I was not doing anything, I wastoo busy.
I kind of thrive in thatcaregiver role, if y'all can
relate to that, like you likecaring for people You're a
teacher, michelle you like thoserelationships, you like taking
(06:55):
care of people, and doctors arevery similar.
In being a leader, I liketaking care of my team
(07:28):
no-transcript doctor that tookher life and that that really
struck you.
Dr Lorna Breen passed fromsuicide in the spring of 2020.
And reading her story from NewYork City in the New York Times
(07:50):
in summer of 2020, I mean,michelle and Amy, I kid you, not
reading every paragraph I had avisceral reaction and I was
clenching up saying this couldbe any one of us, any one of us.
All she wanted to do is fixthings.
She was trying to fix theunfixable.
She was trying to do a good job.
Nothing mattered, everythingwas against her and she tried to
(08:11):
fight through her mental healthchallenges.
All of that came through.
She took time off, but she didnot win that battle.
And reading that story and fastforward where I'm at now, all my
author proceeds from the bookare going to that foundation,
the Lorna Breen HeroesFoundation, and I'm very aligned
as an ambassador.
In fact, tomorrow I'm going forthe day to DC.
It's National Healthcare WorkerWellbeing Day and that
(08:33):
foundation and anotherorganization are putting on a
whole day long symposium.
So that should be fun and veryinformative and building a
community.
But yeah, you know, 400physicians a year die by suicide
, so let's imagine the griefwith that.
Oh my.
God I know three personally.
Can you imagine that?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Do you know any of them?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yes, yes, amy, yes, and it's always people you would
not think are struggling.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Well, we started that, you knowbefore you got on the call.
Amy, we're sitting herevisiting and talking, and it was
just, you know, intuitive Amyand I have gotten to know each
other so well and she juststopped and was like Well, how
are you, michelle?
You know that, just that, thatbeing seen, I guess, is just so
important, and I think youtalked about that with your
(09:24):
colleague that had recognizedthere's something different and
we need to do something aboutthat.
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Good question.
So ultimately, you know, I hadkind of this epiphany with my
wife saying you know, it's timeI think I need, I need some, I
need extra, I need something, Ineed something, whether it's
medication, therapy, all of theabove.
I need something.
And it was not easy for me tosay that out loud, as you can
imagine, it's never is.
My wife was like okay, good,let's do it.
(09:54):
It was simple, it was noresistance.
I walked into my primary carephysician and I called it a
routine follow-up or something.
And the first thing he asked mewas so how are you doing?
And I said I'm okay.
He's like you're struggling.
I said yes, he's like okay,when are we going to do
something about it chemically?
It's time.
And we went back and forth.
I'm like how'd you know?
And he said I see you walkingaround the hospital we work in
(10:15):
the same healthcare system andhe says you look miserable, you
look exhausted, you lookdefeated and that's no way to
live and we need to do something.
And I felt much lighter afterleaving that doctor's
appointment and I talk about itin the book.
I've been through medicationchanges and I'm at a good place
now.
That itself is a journey initself.
(10:36):
I didn't initially add ontherapy.
I did a year later.
Truth be told, I had seen oneof those employee assistance
programs, what we all have inour respective employers
throughout the years,intermittently for anger
management.
Like you know, sometimes youget home, you don't have enough
left to give and you're justkind of you know frustrated, and
it's not a good combination, aswe all know.
(10:57):
So I never felt that thosetherapists could have done, did
enough and went deep enough.
For me and this is going to bea saying I don't know if you've
heard this before, but it's veryimportant for people that are
emotionally intelligent, whichobviously you are and I'm sure
your listeners are too is thatyou have to find a therapist
that you cannot outsmart.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Oh my goodness, yes, yes, you're so right.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Wow, that is really good.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
That's powerful right .
Yes, that is so right.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Wow, that is really right.
That's powerful, right, yes,that is so powerful.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And I didn't make that up.
I heard it at one of thosewellness conferences or whatever
I've been to and I've never letgo of that.
But the truth is I'm prettysavvy.
I know how to pivot aconversation on that and I think
most of us do right.
But I want a therapist that'sgoing to call me out on my stuff
and make me realize, like no,no, no, no, no, no, no.
That argument you had with yourwife, you're not going to get a
(11:50):
there there, pat, pat, you'regoing to be like the way you
responded.
You could have done this.
That's what I need, that's whatwe all need.
So I finally found the rightmatch.
So what I'm getting at is it'sokay to change therapists,
because you really have to findthe right match that's going to
be able to go deep, handle it,bring you back, do it all.
Not an easy job.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
No sure.
Well, and you and I had talkedabout that, this is a really
heavy week for you because, thisis the one year anniversary of
your dad's passing and I'm sosorry.
I know you know they talk aboutthe loss of a parent is losing
a piece of our past, and I knowthose that the missing is just
(12:34):
as Amy and I know it's so hard.
How did you know the loss ofyour dad, compounded with those
you know, several years oftrauma of COVID and your own
mental anguish?
How's that compounded?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
He was my number one supporter and he lived locally.
He was cared for in ourhospital in a system I work for.
We talked every day.
He adored my kids and when Isay adored, I mean they could do
no wrong in his eyes, just thepure, pure love that he had for
them.
But we knew he was declining.
(13:08):
But he was always compensated.
But at four weeks of anguish hewent through after having a fall
.
He was only 74.
And it was a privilege andhonor to be on the sidelines as
a physician and son here,navigating, moving mountains,
making things happen, advocatingfor him.
But it was a lot of.
It was kind of the sameemotions where you go through
(13:29):
this adrenaline.
You're in the weeds of it, youdo it and you know what's coming
.
But and then when you know it'scoming, you're like, okay, you
know what this has to end.
I knew as a physician hissuffering had to end.
But then the emotions as a sonis like, wait, what?
What am I, I doing?
What are we doing?
But I saw him suffer and I knewhe had lost what he had, what
(13:51):
he was, in many ways.
And the best part for what it'sworth is two days before he
passed.
He rallied and he said I'm done, this is what I want.
I want hospice.
You guys got to listen to me.
And he even pulled me aside andsaid don't let anybody change
my plan.
This is what to me.
And he even pulled me aside andsaid don't let anybody change
my plan.
This is what I want, and he saidthat because he knew my brother
, who's also a physician, wouldbe a little bit more emotional.
(14:11):
Not that I'm not emotional, butthere's always, you know,
families going through this.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Oh, I'm that person in my family.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I always feel like there's always somebody that
wants not ready right, andthat's just the way it is not
ready, right, and that's justthe way it is.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So he, really, like my husband's always told
everyone amy is not in charge ofmy plug, she won't do it, she
will not respect my wishes, andhe's right.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's terrible, right it's hard, but you know he gave
us the biggest gift because hemade that decision yes thank you
and I knew at the time he wasgiving us a gift, but I didn't
realize it till now and I kindof, I guess, turn it back to.
(14:52):
I would love to hear from y'allin this discussion is there's
times when this week and goinginto this week, I'm like okay,
I'm okay, I think I got this.
And then there's times I'm likelooking at pictures or
something or old text messagesand it's like wait what?
And then there's a middleground where I'm like, okay, I'm
feeling okay, but I kind offeel iffy, but I can get through
(15:13):
it, but what am I supposed tobe feeling and which feelings
should I hold?
Like, how should I act on it?
You know, does that make sensewhat I'm asking?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
and this is where my motto comes in Feel the feels.
If you're sad, you're sad.
If you're happy, you're happy.
Feel those moments.
You know, I know there's timesthat you can't actually.
You know you're in the middleof something and you can't
actually feel everything.
But try, you know, if you'rehaving a bad day, just, or a sad
day, just be sad.
Just embrace that moment andjust feel it, because if you
(15:45):
push it down and push it downand push it down, that's when
it's going to come out evenbigger.
If you're happy, it's okay tobe happy.
Have a happy day, enjoy, laugh,smile, enjoy your kids running
around and you know sometimesthat sadness pops in out of that
but just allow yourself to, inthat moment, acknowledge the
feeling and continue to feel it.
(16:07):
To me, that's the healthiestway to be.
Yeah, I mean, you have to beintentional about it.
You just have to be intentionalabout taking that time and
acknowledging I mean, I'veintentionally, and that makes
sense.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Thank you, Amy.
I've intentionally placedmyself on a very busy work
schedule Thursday and Friday.
Thursday is the day and part ofme feels a little selfish for
doing that.
But I know why I'm doing thatbecause I don't want to be in
the gutter all day.
Truthfully, and I'm the type,if I'm idle on a day like that,
I could easily be in the gutter,which I like to call, and
frankly, I don't think thatwould be wise for me.
(16:42):
Is that selfish?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
No, I'm exactly the same way.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Oh, that's Michelle.
Yeah, she's busy, busy, busy,go, go, go.
I, on the other hand, I'm likedon't make me do anything, don't
plan anything, just let meembrace that moment.
Let it come, let me feel it,let me embrace it and I'll
decide what I do at that time.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
You know just, we're just so different in that aspect
, which is great, but I want tosavor the moment too.
It's a weird contradiction, Idon't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
What I try to do is just be intentional about the
moments where I am going tobreak down.
So I literally carve a space inmy day leading up to those big
moments.
And what Amy and I have figuredout is a lot of times there's
just so much anticipation forthose anniversary days and then
the anniversary days kind of youend up being okay because
you've done so much, you knowyou have so much anxiety and
work, and then it's the afterdays that are really hard,
(17:46):
because you know um you're notin the mix of doing something to
get ready and all of a suddenit's over and so your brain and
your heart kind of relaxes a bit.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
But I that's a good point.
The after days it's like aballoon pop.
It's over and it's like whatnow?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
what I'm almost.
What do I do?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
after the one year mark.
Now, like am I supposed to beokay?
And they say it takes a fullyear to grieve and then it gets
easier.
You know every, we've all heardthat right, we've all heard
that right.
The four seasons, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
But then it's like what do you do after that?
Yeah, and truthfully, everysingle one of us grief moms in
this group.
It's really year two and I hateto even say that.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Please say it.
No, we need to embrace this.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But year two is honestly.
I mean, of course, year one ishard in so many ways, but year
two you come out of this cloudand that's when the missing is
really, really heavy and, likeyou said, you're seeing pictures
, you're able to go to thosethings which maybe that first
year you didn't as much andpeople aren't asking about it
like they did that first year.
(18:59):
And so there's this loneliness,this space of needing somebody
to ask about it, and then all ofthat.
But I call it just puttingmyself in deep grief, where I
carve out time once a day and Istill do that today where I
intentionally am looking atpictures of Carter or I write
(19:22):
about it or I'll listen to musicthat's intentionally going to
connect me to him and just myemotions about it.
And that sense, because I'mlike you where I have to be busy
, busy, busy.
But that gives me sort of this.
I am somewhat in control of itbecause I know when I'm going to
do it.
Here's my time, this is where Igive myself that space to then
(19:47):
save for it.
It's a lie.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
That year mark.
It changes nothing except forthe fact it's another day on the
calendar, but it's not like onday, one year, one day, you're
magically better, it's notMm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah, david Kessler.
Do y'all know that name, davidKessler, with grief?
Have y'all heard him speak?
I'm sidetracking, but I heardhim speak in was it January, I
don't know?
Sometime recently through StJoseph's Anyways, they had this
speaker series and one quoteabout grief and I went to the
session on losing a parent andhe said you enter in the middle
(20:37):
of somebody's movie and theyleave in the middle of your
movie and you're never going tohave enough time.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That just hits hard, doesn't it?
It really does, sorry, no, Imean it's good, but it doesn't
solve anything.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It just kind of puts things in perspective.
Like this is it.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Like, oh great, now what?
I guess one of the things thatI wanted to ask you about in
this.
You have this hard week.
You're thinking about it, youmade a day on Thursday.
That's really busy.
What's that doing to youphysically?
What we've noticed is just thatphysicality of grief.
Physicality of grief.
(21:30):
We have really felt that.
Certainly we have not heardanyone talk to us, and books
that we read about our traumadidn't talk about that.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So that's not talked about much.
You think Then is that anuntapped area?
The physicality of grief?
That's a really good way ofputting it, and no one's ever
brought that up to me, and I'mso glad you are.
The first thing I think aboutfrom a physicality and physical
health standpoint is my sleep.
Sleep is forever.
I'm also at baseline.
(21:55):
I have sleep.
I'm not the best sleeper.
I take melatonin.
I've done sleep aids before.
I don't do those anymore.
I took ashwagandha as asupplement but want to say and I
told my wife this too the lastyear the dreams are so vivid.
He's in my dreams constantly,good and bad.
I know, I guess, I guess, Iknow I am.
(22:19):
You're right.
I can't discount that.
But sometimes, believe it ornot, I say can the dreams stop
for a night or two, because it'sexhausting.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, and you wake up and it's a lot.
It's just a lot.
And how do you go?
Oh, I got to go brush my teeth.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I know Totally.
And then the whole sleepscience and all I question am I
getting quality rest?
Is my brain really resting oris this the way my brain is
processing this?
And I wish I had the answer tothat, because I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, no, and that is um, that's something.
And I think with child loss, we, amy and I, talk about this a
lot.
Just, I mean, we are exhaustedmost days.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Really.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And I walk around and you're happy and cheerful and
you know you have a wonderfultime on a lot of levels.
But it's just right underneath.
I mean, the sorrow is justright there and you're
constantly battling it, likeyour brain is just you know,
because you're just thinkingabout it nonstop.
Even though you're constantlybattling it, like your brain is
just you know, because you'rejust thinking about it nonstop,
even though you're not trying toUm so that takes extra energy
(23:33):
because so when you come home inthe evening you're exhausted,
like you're physically drained,right yeah.
So I think you know staying busyfor sure helps me, but then
carving that space to just findtime to be with your dad when
you're awake, you know likehaving that, you know being able
(23:55):
to just.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
You know what my therapist told me to do, and
maybe y'all do this and y'allcan if you're comfortable
sharing.
But he said journal, before yougo to bed, something about your
dad, um, and see if that helpsdisplace the dreams a bit.
And I truth be told, I'm notcompliant with that advice.
Every night I just can't, weall.
You know it's hard sometimes,um, but I guess a few nights I
(24:19):
did do it.
Maybe it made a difference.
And I'm not trying to say thedreams are bad, but sometimes
it's just the um.
It's really hard the nextmorning to wake up and we're
saying well, how'd you sleep,how was your night?
You know, I'm just like vividdreams and I sound like a broken
record and I don't want to keepsaying the same thing every
morning and it's kind ofisolating.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, well, maybe it's.
Maybe the journal needs to bethe day after, because maybe
that is.
That is what are you seeing inwhat's your dad showing you
which would be kind of aninteresting journey to if your
dad was your biggest fan andcheerleader that maybe these
images are trying to teach yousomething.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right after Alec passed we started the Alec
Journal and I had one and mydaughter Layla had one, and
anytime we wanted to talk to himwe would write to him in this
journal and sometimes Laylawould draw pictures of her and
Alec or whatever I mean becauseshe was what seven?
(25:21):
So, like I said, she was stillin the picture drawing phase and
writing phase, but it did helpget it out of my head.
You know, sometimes thosethoughts and what you want to
say is in your head and then youcreate this conversation and it
just gets stuck in there.
It made me crazy a little bit,so just getting it out on paper
(25:44):
and it's almost like he couldread it, but it was like me
talking to him and sometimes Icould hear his responses.
But anyway, yeah, that Alecjournal really, really helped
both Layla and I through a lotof different times.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I wonder if you did that, even with your kids, of
writing to your dad.
Um, that, I know that's, that'sa way that I also forced myself
to be with Carter is in justeveryday conversations.
I'm I'm really intentional lesslikely anymore because it's so
(26:20):
now part of my conversation, butoh yeah, carter used to do da
da, da, da, um and yeah, um, andyou know so I love that, amy,
that journal and doing that withyour daughter.
I just think that is sobeautiful and I'm sure it was so
hard at first and I bet youshared a lot of tears, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
We get it.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , one of the things that greta
said that just reminds me, youknow, if if you were kind of
talking about your dad with yourkids is.
I remember I was taking Gretato school Amy, you've heard this
(27:13):
, but, and you know I was cryingit was probably two weeks into,
after we had lost Carter and Iwasn't back at school yet.
But Greta was back at schooland I'm dropping her off, and
the first thing she asked waswell, mom, I'm going to school.
When are you going to go backto school, you know, and I
thought, well, yeah, here's thislittle eight-year-old and she's
(27:35):
facing the day.
And so I thought, yep, okay,that goes on my to-do list.
And then she said mom, you'reso lucky.
And I said why is?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
that she said well, you had Carter for 17 years.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I only had him for eight and I think that, like
that journal, amy, I bet you yougot to see, you know Alec
through Layla's eyes and thingsthat you know she would say that
that could be kind ofinteresting to do.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I'll go back and look at those two over time,
or is that kind of a what'sthat?
What's the right recipe on that?
I guess it's everyone's theirown person on that.
I don't know either.
I don't you know.
When I have gone back andlooked at some of my previous
journal entries whatever theyare I'm like, oh, I said that,
really, those are my thoughts.
It's like, oh, I don't know ifI want to, or it's like that was
(28:28):
dark.
Let's not read that today.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, that that was dark.
Let's not read that today.
Well, and one of the thingsthat you talked about in your
book of you know, having to gain, you know, both this mental
resilience and emotionalresilience, and just to
persevere through the pandemic,and then, of course, with the
loss of your dad.
How has those two things reallychallenged your idea of what is
(28:56):
perseverance, and how do we, ashumans, actually make ourselves
persevere?
What is that?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That's a really good question and I don't know that I
have the right answer questionand I don't know that I have the
right answer For me.
You know, from a COVIDstandpoint and all, I think I
just had to look at whatmattered to me and that was
family and at the time and stillis obviously professional
career and sustaining that.
And, as my therapist tells me,how can we keep you on the best
(29:28):
track that you want to be orthis?
You know we're all thesebeautiful, beautiful people that
we are and I'm deviating fromthat through these, whatever's
going on, how do I get myselfback on that track and be this
person who I want to be?
That's what you know throughCOVID and all you know, through
my dad and that journey andpersevering, I think I'm still
(29:50):
figuring it out.
You know it's interesting.
My years before my dad passed,my wife and I were talking and
you know she's a very strongperson and she said you know if
and when, more so when ourparents pass we were not gonna.
We can't completely break downto a point where we're not
functional.
And I said no, no, no, and Ithink she said that looking
(30:11):
after me because she knows I'mprobably more fragile in many
ways?
No, and I think she said thatlooking after me, because she
knows I'm probably more fragilein many ways, as strong as I am
more fragile.
So in many ways, you know, Ichose to march forward and you
know the only other way isincluding him in our day-to-day
conversations, not avoiding thathe's not here, you know.
(30:33):
Including him with my daughterwhen it's happening, or my son.
You know the feelings coming intalking about him, even my now
five year old.
The other night he was sayingWell, I want to go.
I know he's dead, but I want togo visit him and I want to take
a plane or a bus and car.
And what do you want to do whenyou visit him?
I just want to give him a bighug and I was like you know, so
they get it in their own way.
(30:55):
So I'm hopeful we can keep thatconversation going.
But honestly, Michelle, that'sthe only way I've known how to
persevere is include him and notmake him forgotten.
And that's 360 days in.
That's where I'm at right now,I guess 160 days in.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
That's where I'm at right now, I guess.
Good, yes, how has you know?
You have a chapter aboutcommunity and solidarity and you
really helped your team cometogether and it really sounded
like they rallied around you asa leader as well, and so,
(31:31):
thinking about what you learnedabout community and solidarity
through the pandemic, what haveyou learned about that in this
real personal loss with yourfather?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
team, a camaraderie, you know, and I always say, amy,
I'm sorry I don't know if youryour career, background and
profession, but I know Michelleis a teacher.
But teachers and healthcareworkers on the frontline are
very parallel in what theyexperience doing what they do.
But you know, having my group,having that group that's
(32:04):
carrying you through, we mayexperience professional
differences, which we will andwe always do but at the end of
the day we have each other'sback and I think I'm proud to
say I've set that tone from thebeginning that we are still
humans and we're going to alwaysfocus on family first and what
our personal needs are.
When I see somebody not doingthat or somebody sees me doing
(32:25):
that, it's going to be no.
And when I was going through it,they're like stop, you're not
doing this, we're going to dothis, you're not doing this,
we're going to do this, you'regoing to go away right now and
take care of yourself.
And it took me a week or two toget into that zone and then I
realized you know what, I'mgoing to allow this and I'm
going to be taken care of bythem right now.
And it's a very good feelingactually knowing you have that
(32:46):
and that really kind of groundedme, especially last year,
knowing that's the stabilitythat I had during that time that
I really needed.
So that's that's how I managedthat.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
What advice would you give, you know, for all of us,
family and friends you know,that have gone through child
loss.
What do you, what do you say tothem in terms of what could
they do that helped you, familyand friends and co-workers, both
in the pandemic and with theloss of your dad?
(33:19):
What's some advice you couldgive listeners in terms of you
know, if it's not them that'sdealing with the grief, but
other friends, and how can theyhelp?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
yeah, um, I think there's a lot of us that like to
hide behind the idea of scaredto bring it up, scared to bring
up that topic, the elephant inthe room.
And I've been a victim of notdoing that in certain situations
and also one that I was hopingsomebody would bring the
(33:53):
elephant, and they're avoiding,trying to make things
semi-normal, which makes thingsworse.
So I would say bring up theelephant in the room, and
there's ways to do that.
You don't want to be so abruptabout it.
We're like so how are you doing?
Your dad died yesterday.
What is it like?
Maybe that tact isn't great,but look, I know, look, say look
(34:18):
, this is awful, this is theworst thing that could have
happened, and we can't sugarcoatany of it and know that I'm
here and I'm feeling it with youas much as I can and I'll be
with you, whatever you want meto do through this.
But we're going to get throughthis and I don't know.
I think it's important to bringit up and not ignore it.
Honestly, we have toacknowledge it as much as we can
, if that's the best advice Ithink I can give, and I give
that to myself.
I'm saying this to myself too,because there's times I pretend
(34:39):
everything's okay and it's not,and you know, we get in our
grind.
My wife and I get in our dailygrind, and then we're like, oh
what?
So I know none of us are alonein that.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
We all feel that, right, yes, and then a week
later you're like you said thisthe other week, why did you say
that I was feeling this likewhat?
Why didn't you tell me anyways,exactly, exactly.
I love in the in your memoirthat you ended, you know, really
talking about this idea of welland you, you weaved it all the
way through of just hope in therecovery.
You know, both of you knowdealing with all these four
(35:18):
waves of the pandemic and lossof life and all of the
challenges, of course, of whenyou talked about those dark days
, just I really felt that therewas just this internal hope.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Talk to us about that Hope that everybody hope that
there's people that are stillgoing to do the right thing.
And hope can mean differentthings for different people and
I've learned that you know, ifI'm taking care of a patient
who's end of life with cancer, Ican still give them hope, and
that hope may just be keepingtheir pain control and getting
them home to their bed and notlaying in the hospital.
(35:59):
That's the hope I'm giving themand that's okay too.
So when I say what you know, Ithink saying hopeful, I think
the hopeful part of me isultimately good health starts in
a community, right, whetherit's in a community where
there's a neighborhood, a church, a school.
And when I define good health,it's not only blood pressure,
diabetes, all that stuff, it'severything about us.
(36:20):
You know the whole psychosocialpicture, all of it.
And the hope that I getsurrounded with is that we can
surround ourselves with theright community that's going to
help propel all of us keepmoving forward.
And that community we have, thesupply demand of it will change
over time.
But finding that core communitythat you know you can depend on
and I have that in manydifferent ways and for that I'm
(36:42):
blessed and I want to keephaving that and I hope I can
sustain that, whatever we all donext.
But that's the hope.
Because, I will say this,healthcare is so complex and
both of you know this, and thesystem's not getting easier, and
the things that keep megrounded when the days when I'm
feeling the most frustrated withthe way our system's failing us
, is the community that we have,and that's more on the smaller
(37:05):
scale, but that also matterssignificantly, because none of
us can change the bigger system.
But the small bites that we cando, we have a little bit more
control over.
So that's that's kind of mymessage on that.
Am I hopeful?
Every day?
I have my moments where I'mprobably not and I'm a little
more dismal, but I think it'srepositioning what hope really
looks like for us, and that's avery intentional practice, right
(37:28):
.
That takes me, that takes me alot of time to do as well.
So, yeah, it can change too,right.
I mean hope can't.
Hope doesn't mean everything'sgoing to be positive, and I kind
of make fun because sometimesmy wife's like let's go for a
picnic in the park.
I'm like you're so pollyanna,what are we doing, you know?
But everything can't bepollyanna, right, like we're
(37:51):
just everything's not gonna be,um, so finding hope and
something like that.
So you know, but everythingcan't be Pollyanna, right, like
we're just everything's notgonna be.
So finding hope in somethinglike that, so you know, that's
what I can think about these endof life situations, all of that
comes up.
It's like we really can findsome hope in that and it's just
reframing our mindset throughthat.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I love that.
Well, any final thoughts justabout deep grief or just your
lessons that you learned about?
Yeah, the grief journey is.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
You don't know how bad it is until you really go
through a significant loss.
No matter what you read, whatinterviews you've seen, movies
you've seen, you really don'tknow what it's like until you've
been.
And I almost feel like metalking to y'all.
It's like you know you shouldnever compare your despair,
right?
I've heard Robin Roberts on ABCGood Morning America say that
we should never compare ourdespair.
(38:39):
But knowing that y'all havelost a child like my grief in my
mind should be in like downhere, because y'all have gone
through a lot worse.
But we're all dealing withcollective grief differently on
that.
So I fully admire and respectthat you have started this
platform and this communication.
It's warrior moms and I lovethat you've included a dad here
(39:01):
and I hope you'll continue toinclude more dads, because
there's too many dads at leastmales that I'm trying to focus
on, to talk about their mentalhealth and really open.
That can up a little bit,because I've had to embrace that
journey too and it can.
It is very powerful.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It is so powerful.
Amy had her husband on a coupleepisodes ago and it was such
gosh.
It was for me personally.
It was so powerful just to evenin the way he responded.
It was slower, more reallythoughtful.
He was really thinking sodeeply about the questions and
(39:37):
answers and I got so much out ofit and I feel the same about
today.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Thank you.
How do we break that ice?
That's a whole otherconversation we need to have.
But I want to work with y'all.
Can we stay connected on this?
(40:05):
Because, um, men's mentalhealth, all of that's a huge,
huge passion of mine and thatembracing that vulnerability and
more, I mean we could have hadthis conversation going on and
on.
But really, like the workyou're doing, um, I hope you're
finding it fulfilling, knowingwhat you're doing, and I have to
ask does this help you heal?
Partly.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, a thousand percent.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
It doesn't feel like a chore doing this.
I'm hoping right.
This is a passion project.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
What?
What I love is that Amy and Ihave this natural rhythm.
We never talked about it butneither of us, just in our
personalities, are really stuckon.
Oh, it has to be Monday at sixand we have to do this many this
week and so forth both of usand it works well just for our
partnership.
And I think in this deep griefthat's really given us this
(40:53):
space, that okay, when we have atopic and we're really
energized and we're feeling goodwith where we are in our grief,
like this week, we're doingthree that we're going to space
out, but we might have to gosometimes three, four weeks.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, no, I know Right, michelle.
I mean like over the holidaysgosh, I don't know how many we
didn't get very many out at allLike I was having bad days and
down in the dumps and thenMichelle had other days.
It's just, you know, sometimestwo grieving women with busy
schedules, it's hard to gettogether.
But emotionally sometimes we'rejust not ready to even talk to
(41:31):
anybody.
But we do our best, don't we?
We do our best.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Just emotional Ups and downs and I love that you
talk about that openly.
I love that you mentioned thatopenly.
We have to.
Yeah Well, you clearly aredoing what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, and I think that just you know breaking
those barriers of talking aboutit, but then also that
realization that this is, likeyou had said earlier, it's hard
work, right, and and it'sintentional work, Like you do
have to face it and and that'sheavy and exhausting and, um, I,
(42:11):
I would love to keep visitingabout this, Like you said we
will.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
let's do that, can we ?
I'm always, I'm not, I'm notinviting myself back, but I'm
always ready.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
You can be like, like .
Oprah's Dr Oz, you can be our.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I'm all about it.
Did Jeremy tell you to say that?
Because I am all about that.
Like I'm ready, sign me up,give me the contract, I'm there.
Yes, yes yes, yes, yes, yes.
I love that.
I love that she was the best,wasn't she?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
You worked on your emotional space.
You worked on your emotionalspace.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
It worked on your mental.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Isn't that awesome.
That's so good.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
That's why we you know, don you know we did a
photo shoot for our book acouple weeks ago and we all had
superhero capes on.
You know that idea that this isat times grief feels so like.
You have to have thissuperhuman strength, and in the
middle of your week I'm just sograteful that you one wanted to
(43:19):
talk to us, but that you putyour cape on to join us.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Well, it was meant to be.
And you know, michelle, youtexted me today saying are you
sure you're okay doing thistonight?
I'm like, oh, I'm very sure I'mokay.
So I needed this as much asanybody.
So it was meant to be.
And you know, when we weretalking about doing this podcast
a few weeks ago, I think I mayhave even subconsciously planned
it, saying this is the rightweek to do this.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou.
It is.
(43:43):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, if you just lean in and let it happen.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, thank you for joining us, and.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Amy, as always, thank you, bye bye, bye.
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