June 16, 2025 • 55 mins
Mary Leopold never expected to find herself on the other side of grief—as a psychotherapist with decades of experience, she'd helped countless clients through loss, but when her extraordinary 19-year-old son Oliver died unexpectedly in December 2021, everything changed.
Oliver wasn't just another teenager. With a mind that "worked differently," he blazed through life creating lasting impact wherever he went. At his high school of 4,000 students, he became known as "the voice", making morning announcements. During COVID, while many teens struggled with isolation, Oliver graduated early to work as an EMT in emergency rooms and on ambulances. His entrepreneurial spirit led him to create an app used by local firefighters and even purchase a decommissioned 42-foot fire truck (much to his parents' initial dismay). His passion for helping others defined him.
When Oliver passed away suddenly in his sleep from undiagnosed heart conditions, Mary found herself navigating the terrain of grief without a roadmap. The experience transformed both her personal journey and professional approach. "I'm much more patient with myself as a therapist now," she explains, "knowing there's no beginning, middle, and end to grief." Rather than focusing on fixing or resolving grief, Mary describes a process of integration—learning to incorporate profound loss into a new reality while still finding moments of joy and connection.
Perhaps most beautiful is how Mary has channeled her grief into creating the Wind Phone.
The wind phone began in Japan in 2010 when Itaru Sasaki, a garden designer, built a phone booth in his yard so he could “talk” with a deceased relative. Months later, the Fukushima earthquate and tsumami hit; in a matter of minutes, more than 20,000 people died.
Sasaki opened the phone booth to his neighbors, who urgently needed a place to express their grief. Word spread, and soon people came on pilgrimage from around Japan to speak through the "phone of the wind" to those they loved.
Mary heard about this and began to make plans, Soon, a British-style phone booth with a disconnected rotary phone where people can "call" their departed loved ones was set up at a local, public golf course; this public memorial has become a gathering place for community healing.
Mary has painted hundreds of rocks bearing names of loved ones lost, creating a visual testament to shared grief, all while honoring her precious Oliver. Meanwhile, donations made in Oliver's memory have funded life-saving equipment for the fire department and scholarships for paramedic students.
Mary's story reminds us that grief doesn't follow predictable patterns, but through community connection, creative expression, and honoring our loved ones' legacies, we can learn to carry both our sorrow and our joy. Here's a wind phone website to find out about ones near you...and how to set one up! https://www.mywindphone.com/
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
We'd love to hear from our followers!
Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome back to Warrior Moms.
I am Michelle Davis, carter'smom.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am Amy Durham, alex's mom, and we are so
grateful to be here with a newfriend that we just made via the
World Wide Internet.
You know the World Wide Webalways brings us to cool people
and cool stories and sad stories, but you know we hate that
we're here, but we love thatwe're here at the same time and
(00:27):
to support each other.
But we have Mary Leopold andshe is in the north suburbs of
Chicago and she is here to tellus about her, her son Oliver,
who passed away back in 2021,and how she's, you know, managed
to get out of bed and keepmoving every day.
So, mary, thank you so much forbeing here with us today.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's so nice to be here.
I wish it were under differentcircumstances, but I'm so happy
to be connecting with all of you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yes, oh, my gosh.
Well, yes, just start us out,tell us about your Oliver.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, oliver, like all of our children, was an
extraordinary child.
I think that he lived more inhis 19 years than truly, than
most people that I know of anyage.
He just he packed so much in.
He was such a passionate,passionate young man.
So he, as a lot of our children, was, you know, very affected
(01:31):
by COVID in terms of theisolation.
Oliver very, very extroverted,really liked to be helping out
in the community.
He was known to everybody inhis high school in terms of what
he did with technology and hedid the morning announcements
every morning Cute and he becamethe voice of his high school of
(01:56):
4,000 people, huge public highschool.
Wow.
He decided that his senior yearhe was an incredible student
and he decided to.
Well, he took an EMT course hissenior year at night and he had
been involved in this wonderfulprogram in our community for
(02:18):
high school students who weremaybe they were interested in
the fire department.
Oliver didn't necessarily wantto become a firefighter, but he
they were interested in the firedepartment.
Oliver didn't necessarily wantto become a firefighter, but he
was very interested in, kind oflike, the mechanisms of how the
fire department worked and hewas in this great program with
his peers for four years andbecame really close with all the
(02:40):
people in the fire department.
The chief, the I mean the chiefonce helped Oliver change a
flat tire of.
I mean just, he just kind ofembedded himself and he actually
created an app during hisjunior year, I think, or senior
year, that actually was put onall the rigs in our city and
(03:00):
that he created this app thatbasically encapsulated like he
didn't have to rewrite anyinformation, but any any sort of
medical emergency informationwas much more easily accessible
with this app.
Um and so the fire departmentwas using this app, so he just a
brain like no other.
(03:21):
A brain like no other.
My husband and I are bothsocial workers.
I'm a psychotherapist inprivate practice, have been for
many years.
His brain worked so differently.
He literally kind of came outinto this world as a little
entrepreneur and he was alwaysinterested in inventions and
numbers.
He was also very, very social.
(03:42):
So he had this wonderfulcombination of completely
extroverted, was comfortable ina crowd and he just had this
mind that just worked all thetime.
His first video he bought withthe money that he saved.
It's so wonderful to tell thesestories.
(04:02):
It's been a long time.
He bought an old well, it's notold, but just like a cash
register Now you don't see themanymore but like a Casio,
whatever cash register.
And he did his first littlevideo on YouTube with his little
like high pitched voice.
He was wearing a little hislittle blazer how to use this
(04:23):
cash register and it had like800,000 views.
It was crazy and he started aYouTube channel which I have not
had the heart to look at.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Thousands of followers and he would talk
about.
He would talk about technology,or one of his really popular
videos was and he would do thison his own.
You know, was how like a childcan use get a debit card and use
a debit card if they're kind ofand how to do that.
And so his mind was just.
(04:56):
He was just constantlyproducing and thinking about
ways in his school, in thecommunity, even when he was
little, how to kind of makechanges.
And he was in middle school andhe was asked to speak at
Northwestern's business schooloh my gosh, young
entrepreneurship.
And again he had this squeakylittle voice.
(05:17):
He hasn't reached puberty yet.
He's talking to all thesegraduate students.
So he was we really, and Ithink this is true for a lot of
our children.
You know, we let we, let himlead us.
He was he.
His mind works so differently.
He has so much passion and driveand he was such a good kid in
(05:38):
terms of he didn't act out andit would have been fine if he
had right, if he had had typicaladolescence, but we, we really
just let him lead and he led usto incredible places and places
that we would have, you know,never gone, and this is
experienced.
Yeah, that that really is.
They're all dear to my heart,but this sort of tells you a
(06:00):
little bit about Oliver.
So so he ended up doing EMT, anEMT program, his senior year,
his first semester.
He really wanted to.
Everything was, you know,everything was shut down with
COVID.
Everything was remote.
It was so hard for him and hereally had this idea that he
could help out during COVID andhe didn't know how that would
(06:22):
look.
But he did get his EMT degree.
He ended up graduating early,which he reached out to the
school.
He reached out to the schoolshe applied to.
You know what would this looklike?
Would this be OK?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And it was very much OK.
He had been such a stellarstudent and so he graduated
early and he ended up working atour local hospital, which has a
few different locations, and heworked in the emergency room
and then he also worked on aprivate ambulance At what age?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So he would have been like 17?
.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He was 18 when he so he was a senior in high school,
in high school but graduatedearly, graduated in December and
, literally like days later, wasalready working 12 hour shifts
at the hospital.
And he was very by choiceTotally by choice, yeah, yeah,
completely by choice and he wasworking on it for a private
(07:23):
ambulance company, so he'dhelped do transport and he was
very, very humble and very sortof quiet about the work he was
doing.
I think that a lot of what hesaw was probably very intense
and he had a wonderful colleague.
He had wonderful colleagues atthe hospital, but he came home
(07:44):
and he just wanted his kind ofhis quiet time.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And we obviously we respected that we were making
sure that he wasn't getting toooverwhelmed by the work he was
doing.
He seemed to be managing itreally well and he ended up, so
this was his, so what would havebeen like his winter semester
of high school.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And then he went through the graduation and
everything and then he decidedto.
He applied to schools and hedecided to defer for a year and
he was admitted to paramedicschool and he wanted to study
bio, but first it was computerscience and then he switched to
biomedical engineering.
He had a best friend who wasshe was studying biomedical
(08:30):
engineering.
So he said he didn't want to bea doctor which you know would
have been fine, of course orparamedic, but he really, he
just really loved this hand, thehands-on piece of it.
So he was in paramedic school.
He was also still working inthe emergency room.
I don't know how he did it, buthe just had so much energy to
(08:52):
just to help and to kind of bein the world in such a way that
I really have yet to meet anyonelike that.
As extroverted as I am, I reallylike to come back to myself,
have my quiet time.
I'll have a day seeing am.
I really like to come back tomyself, have my quiet time.
I'll have a day seeing clients.
I'll need my time at night torelax.
(09:14):
Tonight, you know, he just wasfully engaged all the time and
he this is a fun story he boughtit's crazy.
So he and I think part of itwas COVID and just being so kind
of locked in right as so manyof our kids really struggled
with that, he ended up buying.
It was an auction, we neverthought it would happen.
He bought a decommissioned firetruck.
(09:37):
Okay, so crazy story.
So he had said, like that hewanted to buy like a
decommissioned ambulance.
And my husband and I said, ohhoney, that's easy.
Like where are you going topark it?
Okay, so where are you going topark it?
Ambulance, which now, lookingback, would have been so much
easier than a fire truck, a 42foot fire truck, 42 foot, and it
(10:06):
was literally.
He was like working and he said, oh, mom and dad, you know I
put in an offer on this firetruck and we just sort of
ignored it.
He was always sort of thinkingabout this.
Hours later I got the firetruck.
It was an Evanstondecommissioned fire truck, so it
had been used in Evanston foryears.
It was from like the 1980s orsomething.
(10:26):
So our first question you knowwe're practical and it wasn't
that expensive, it was his money.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Where are you going to park it?
Yeah, and he's like, oh gosh, Idon't know when am I going to
park it.
You can't park it anywhere.
You can't park it on a citystreet.
No Parking pad in back of ourhouse.
It's not 42 feet long.
This is Oliver.
He just thought it was thecoolest thing.
We were confused why not?
(10:54):
We were totally freaked outabout it.
I mean, I didn't even want totell friends about it, I was so
freaked out about it.
His friends thought it was thecoolest thing.
They had all sorts of ideas forit and it ended up that he did
find a parking spot for it inlike an outdoor lot somewhere.
And you know, his, his um, thepeople at the fire department,
(11:19):
like the captain, and he wasreally close with one of the um,
with one of the chiefs and oneof the captains, and they loved
this and they would actually goand he got his permit and they
would.
But he couldn't drive it alone.
It's this huge, I mean huge,and he would.
They would take turns drivingwith him and so you know I love
(11:42):
hearing the stories of that hewould go out and they would like
show him how to put gas in itand they cleaned it one day and
they brought it down to thebeach and he actually was able
to bring it.
He didn't drive it, but he wasactually able to bring it to a
summer camp that he used to workat as a counselor.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
And he brought it to them and the kids got to kind of
go in and out and he, you know,there was 150 foot ladder on
(12:27):
the top of it.
Crazy story.
It's also beautiful that when hedied, we were able to donate it
to the largest fire traininginstitute in the Midwest where
he had gone over differentsummers, for, you know, a day or
two at a time for training withhis peers in the fire
department students, and so wewere able to donate it, and this
was June.
After he died in December, andit was a beautiful ceremony.
They dedicated, they put thisbeautiful decal on the side fire
truck.
So these are the kinds ofthings like.
This is Oliver's energy.
Yeah, as you can see, as I'mtalking to you, I'm getting more
(12:48):
sort of energized and excitedand these were just the kinds of
things that he did.
He left he sort of left thingsbetter than when he found them.
It sounds like it In a lot ofways.
And he I don't want to dwelltoo much on his death, but his
death was completely unexpected.
I was home, he was home, myhusband was at work and it was a
(13:13):
Thursday morning and because ofCOVID, there's a Thursday
morning yoga class I've beendoing for years, decades I've
been doing this class and itobviously had moved to remote
and usually on Thursdays Oliverwould work a 12 hour shift, like
11 to 11.
But we knew, since Oliver'swork schedule was so busy and he
(13:34):
would often take on extrashifts, that we never woke him
up.
You know, even though he wasn'tin college that year, he really
, we felt, really wanted to betreated like an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Our teenage kids do.
But really all of his, all ofhis friends were at college, so
we really let him come and gohave a schedule.
So I didn't really thinkanything at first of not seeing
him that morning.
Yeah and um, I finished my yogaclass and I went into his room
and he was I can't even say theword, but he was not alive.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
He was in his bed.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It looked like he was sleeping.
There was nothing out of theordinary.
It was the most horrifyingexperience.
It's hard to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I'm so tired.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
My husband was at work and, of course, I called
him.
I called 911 and the people whocame to respond were the people
who loved Oliver and knew him,and so, as traumatic as this was
, I was surrounded by thesefirst responders who knew and
loved Oliver, so much Wow.
Chosen family, so to speak.
(14:43):
I mean literally, and we didn'tknow what happened.
We, you know there was no, wejust we didn't know.
We didn't know if he hadingested something, although
that would not have been.
He was, that wasn't who he was,but we, just, we just did it
(15:05):
hot as an 18 year old.
We didn't find out.
We still don't really know.
Everything's still inconclusive.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Gosh.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
So we and we will never know, but we did not know
when he died that right after hedied this was December 9th that
the that all the reports wereinconclusive.
We didn't know that because themedical examiner never reached
out to us.
I think they thought they'regoing to continue to do some
testing.
You know, if we had gotten eventhat little bit of information,
(15:39):
I think it would have helped.
We thought, maybe he died bysuicide.
We just did not know no yeah,nothing to indicate that he
wanted to harm himself.
He, as far as we knew, did nothave any mental health issues
beyond being just an intense kid.
Yeah, he was super driven.
He had just talked to his bestfriend that night.
(16:00):
He had told us he wasn'tfeeling that great.
He went to bed and then fivemonths later we again still
inconclusive.
We got the report that he hadseveral heart conditions not
necessarily that they couldn'tsay for sure what actually, you
(16:24):
know, ended his life.
So there's a piece of this thatI know a lot of moms, parents,
can relate to, in terms of notknowing the whole story.
You know whether your child diedby an unintentional overdose or
right or fentanyl, poisoning orsuicide, or where there just,
(16:46):
or where there are morequestions than answers, and not
that one is any easier than theother in terms of knowing.
My child died, you know was hitby a car.
My child died in an accident.
There's living with this, notknowing, it's excruciating, and
I'm actually in the process ofwriting a memoir right now about
(17:08):
this time between losing Oliverin a very traumatic way and
then my mom died a year ago,died from cancer.
Not that I don't miss herterribly, but it was expected.
We knew that she had stage fourcancer.
We knew when the medicationstopped working.
It was very expected and I'vealways wanted to write about
(17:33):
Oliver's death and losing my momin a non-traumatic way and
having that experience opened meup to wanting to write about it
more.
So I'm in the process of writingthis memoir, which is also
really brings in a lot of grieftheory and psychological theory
as a therapist, and I'm juststarting to write about Oliver's
(17:56):
action.
I haven't even written yet andI've written probably 150 pages.
I have not written aboutOliver's death yet.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I have not written about Oliver's death.
Yet oh, we know, that is.
I mean, it's so physically andemotionally exhausting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
We were just talking because we've written a book, a
group, a collective book of 14moms, so yeah, so I mean we know
how grueling it is to writeabout that.
Yeah, revisiting that traumafrom the book that we're writing
, because 14 of us have eachwritten a chapter specifically
about our child, the trauma andeverything, and it's hard.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I'm so looking forward to your book.
I think it's going to add somuch to this, to the grief space
Right, Because there are and mybook is not, will not be a
grief guide, Because there areand my book is not, will not be
a grief guide.
And and I don't think yourswill either, except that right,
how each of you has coped andmanaged.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Ours is a survival guide.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
A survival guide.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's a survivor's guide is what?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
ours is.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So I'm in the process of writing and recalling and,
you know, putting everything,getting everything onto paper,
yeah, Well, and I'm sure, likeyou said, as a therapist, to see
(19:34):
these two traumas back to backand to come at it.
You know, theoretically, andthen just personally too, I bet
that has just been anextraordinary journey and it's
going to be an extraordinaryread.
Yes, I'm really looking forwardto it.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And I think also being a psychotherapist and I've
been in the I graduated over 30, almost like 31 years ago,
which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Careful now.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, I know I don't want to age myself here.
I was a baby when I went tocollege?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
But having the experience of being a
psychotherapist and really beingkind of metaphorically like on
the other side of the couchright now.
Right, I am a grieving mom, agrieving daughter and.
I've been working with griefand working with people who are
going through all kinds of griefmy whole career.
And what is it like, right,when you, the sort of
(20:24):
professional I'm putting it inlittle quotation marks become
that griever?
Or become that mom who's sobereaved.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And so what is it like?
Do you feel like you've givenyour clients in the past, your
patients in the past, the rightadvice, or are you coming at it
at a different?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
angle.
Now I'm coming at it from avery different angle and I write
about that, and I write abouthow, in the past, even four
years ago, three and a halfyears ago Oliver died three and
a half years ago that I wouldfeel, I don't know if the need
or the pressure whatever theword is to fix it, to help fix
it.
(21:01):
I need for this person to leavethis therapy session feeling
better about their grief,feeling more resolved about
their grief, about their grief,feeling more resolved about
their grief, whatever the wordwas I wasn't doing it right.
Why was this person stillfeeling stuck in their grief?
And that I just if I read more,if I go to more conferences on
grief, I'll be able to help somuch more.
(21:25):
And I think now, as we all know, it's sitting in it right, it's
sitting through it.
And with my clients they don'tall know that I've lost a son.
I don't, obviously, the peoplewho were working with me when
Oliver died, no.
But if I have a new client andI'm sure people Google their
(21:46):
therapist but people, not.
Everybody knows and that's fine.
So not everybody knows thatI've had these losses, that I
lost my mom a year ago and theydon't need to know.
Obviously this is not about mywork, this is about the work
that I'm doing with them.
And I think what I have foundin myself is I'm just so much
(22:08):
more patient with myself as atherapist, knowing that this is
a process, this is a journey.
There's no beginning, middleand end.
Well, there are sort of there'sthe acute grief and then sort
of middle grief.
There's no end to grief and mesitting with that in myself and
knowing that about my ownprocess, I think has helped me
(22:29):
be much more relaxed with myclients about grief, much more
open in terms of again, notabout my own experience,
necessarily, I'm not bringingthat into the therapy unless it
feels like it could betherapeutic or helpful,
depending on it varies client toclient.
But just knowing the grief,knowing the devastation and the
(22:54):
trauma, and also knowing thatthat we can, whatever that next
step is literally if it's, ifit's getting out of bed the next
morning, if it's taking ashower, right it just.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's these baby steps that personal experience
definitely helps relate toidentify with that person.
We have some moms that in ourgroup that they're like I don't
want to go.
They find more comfort in us,just as you know friends with
that have lost a child than theydo in the counselors that
(23:27):
they've seen, because they'relike they can't.
They just can't relate, eventhough they're an expert on
grief.
They've never lost a parent ora child or a spouse or you know
they.
Just they haven't lived it.
And even though you can studyit in a book, it doesn't
translate into the same wayanyway.
(23:50):
Same way.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, and even as a therapist, I have not turned as
much to therapy during this timeof grief as I thought I would.
I joined and I was really luckythat this came about.
And actually this is related,like very directly related, to
Oliver.
It's hard as a psychotherapistin this community that I've been
(24:11):
in for so long to try to findsomeone I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I reached out right.
I mean, it's kind of yeah, andso I reached out to a woman who
works in grief and and, um, shesaid to me I have to tell you
and I never met her, I didn'tknow her from anybody else,
except that I didn't know hershe said, I just want to tell
you, my husband runs theemergency room at the hospital
(24:37):
where Oliver worked and he lovesOliver.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, evenjust reaching out to a therapist
, like this person knows Oliver,Like that's kind of how Oliver
worked, Like he really did havehis little in so many parts of
the community.
Anyway, she ended up, she endedup running which was really,
(24:59):
really lovely, if that's theright word a short term group
for bereaved moms who had lostyoung adult children more
recently.
So we were all in the same agerange, Our kids were in the same
age range, we were sort of insimilar stages of our grief.
Yes, and then I met with atherapist and it was wonderful,
(25:19):
um, who does more somatic workand I do some of that in my work
with clients a little bit, Um,but she was more trained in it
and it really helped and this is, you know, a different
discussion, but it really helpedaround like the trauma of
seeing Oliver in his bed thatmorning and it's sort of like
(25:39):
EMDR.
You know where you'reretraining.
It wasn't EMDR, but retrainingyour brain and it sort of
softened that literally thattrauma and it sort of softened
that, literally that trauma.
I have found, though, thatreaching, you know, connecting
(26:00):
with other moms not that I don'tconnect with fathers, but
connecting with other moms hasbeen for me the most helpful in
terms of socially in terms ofsocially connecting around our
grief.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, I mean, we can't even put words to it.
I don't think Amy and I talkabout it a lot, but just without
having to say a word, we canlook at each other as grieving
moms and you just see somethingon their face and you don't have
to say a word.
We just, we understand eachother.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
It's like you're already there.
You're already there, right.
It's like everything that camebefore.
I mean it matters who ourchildren were, who they are,
right, it all matters.
But there is something about Iget tearful just thinking about
it something about that, justlike that instant connection
that we're all holding this painand we can hold it for each
other.
So I think therapy if someonedecides, just because I'm a
(26:58):
psychotherapist, if someonedecides not to be in therapy
around their grief, that's fine,right.
As long as people have somesort of feeling that there's
support, that there's some kindof community, whether it's
structured or not, right.
And I think your group ofwarrior moms is just the perfect
example of of creating,creating community.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, community Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And we say all the time that we're not therapists,
like we'll have people that'llcome in, we're all in their
grief and we're like whoa, likewe're not, we're not therapists.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We'll have people that'll come in very raw in
their grief.
I know, yes, I'm sure, andwe're like whoa, we're not
qualified.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Is that right?
Right, we can sit with you inthe grief and we certainly know
the pain, but, yeah, we're notprofessionals and we are
currently struggling with thatjust because you know we've had
so many wonderful new moms comeand we're at that point, I think
, in just a group, as anorganization, where we're
(28:00):
growing faster than you know.
We, we need to put something,some sort of kind of protocol,
together that says you know,please go seek someone.
You know whether it's atherapist, a pastor, you know
somebody that is in this griefspace, you know.
(28:20):
And, of course, and come backyou know, with welcome arms,
exactly.
But it's a both, you know, it'sa both for sure.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And I'm sure that that's tricky, right In your
situation where it's more social.
And obviously, in my situationas a therapist it's very
different.
That's what people are comingto me for.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So what have you done for you?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
What have they done for me.
Your grief, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
What's helped yeah, so what helped early on and
still helps, but it's changed isthat in the really early days
it was the middle of winter inChicago.
I don't remember what kind ofwinter it was.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think it was Chicago winter right, it was
cold, that's all I know.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Cold for you guys, for us probably just typical
winter.
Yeah, it was cold, that's all Iknow.
Cold for you guys, for us,probably just typical winter.
Yeah, it was COVID.
So as much as we had peopleover visiting, it was still
pretty controlled in terms ofmasking and everything.
So I love to walk and I had awalk every morning for weeks and
(29:28):
that was the only thing on mycalendar and people really came
out of the woodwork and duringCOVID I think we all felt so
isolated and during COVID I'mlike, do I even have any friends
left?
We're not seeing anybody, we'renot interacting very much and
that was so grounding for me tohave those cold morning walks
(29:52):
talking about Oliver, connectingwith people around my grief,
and it sounds so simple.
But there was something thephysical environment of, like
breathing the cold air.
I actually love the wintershere, breathe it within reason,
right, but I do enjoy the changeof seasons and the cold and I
(30:13):
love walking in the cold.
And there was just somethingabout like the sensory
experience of being in the coldwith like that bracing cold.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Somehow I just I, I felt better.
I felt physically better, Ifelt emotionally better and that
was that structured my day.
Those were early days I did.
I ended up going back to workabout a month, maybe five weeks,
after Oliver died.
That was.
I'm very fortunate that I'm inprivate practice.
My husband has a salary, youknow I I understand my privilege
(30:45):
there that I because I'mself-employed that I was able to
decide I didn't have to worryabout bereavement and all the
terrible things that can happenat work.
So I really recognized that.
So it was about five weekswhere I felt ready to start very
slowly with clients and Istarted off slowly and a couple
(31:05):
of people a day or a few peopleduring the week, and it really
helped for me to be back at work.
I've been with the samecolleagues.
We're not a group practice, weall function independently, but
we've been together for years.
I mean I think I've been withthese same people for like 25
(31:26):
years and now a few people haveretired.
They're older than I am so Ifelt such a safety in going back
to work which I know a lot ofpeople can't say that they felt
that and I felt so I don't wantto say at the time, going back
to work, I felt very anxiousabout it, but I feel so
passionately about my work andabout my clients, who I truly
(31:47):
love and care for so much, thatconnecting with them again felt
like you know they, they have noidea, I think, how stabilizing
this was for me to work, and forsome people it was too much.
I don't think they couldtolerate the fact that I had
lost my child and left therapyor a lot stayed and we were able
(32:10):
to talk about it in a way and Ithink that's also something
that changed just quickly backto my work as a therapist is
that if people wanted to engagearound my loss, I was very open
with them.
I think that I saw myself notagain, again.
More in retrospect now that Ican think about it, I was sort
(32:30):
of just in it at the time, but Ithink sort of a mirror.
You know that this is what itcan look like, that you can
function again, you can find joyin your work.
If it's work that you love to do, you can connect outside of
your child, and so for thosehours, minutes that I was with
clients, I really felt like Icould step outside my grief and
(32:53):
then I'd come back to it.
Literally I would finish my daysob on the way home in the car.
I also have a regular yogapractice and that's been
consistent and it's a communitythat is very close and this I
found out Oliver died rightafter I had done yoga and the
(33:17):
community really rallied aroundme and it was.
That was really beautiful.
Just the support in thatspecific class.
And that's been a consistent forme and that's been a consistent
for me.
I also am not.
I'm not critical of myself If Ihave a day where my energy is
really low or I feel just reallysad.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I'm three and a half years out and that happens as
much, as as much as ever.
I'm not afraid, it doesn'tchange as we know it, kind of
changes shape and form, but it'sstill there all the time.
It's there all the time, and andI know this is I know this is
something that a lot of grievingpeople talk about and I won't
talk about it too much but justhow relationships change too,
(34:04):
that people you might expect tobe there who aren't there, and
vice versa, and I've had thisgrowing of some relationships
that I hadn't like, people Ihadn't been very close with or
kept in contact with, who reallywho really sought me out
because of either they couldtruly understand or just their
own compassion.
Those relationships have beenstronger than ever.
(34:27):
So there are lots of right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
There are lots of different lines.
Oh gosh, yeah, this journey isjust unbelievable and I love.
I think one of the things justin listening to your story, both
with Oliver and his gift forconnection with people Oliver
and his gift for connection withpeople that you know I see
where he got that with you isthat gift that you have with
(34:50):
connecting with people.
And you know it's no surprisewhen I was listening, that you
went back to work a month, fiveweeks, because you were wanting
to give to, like you said, tothe clients that you cared for
so much.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And that's just that's beautiful to the clients
that you cared for so much, andthat's just that's beautiful,
thank you.
And that has like differentways of staying active, and I
don't mean I mean for me, yes,it's like I like to walk, I like
to be physically active, butthat's not what I mean In this
case.
I mean Oliver was so active inour community and there were
some things that we were able toput in place and I'll talk
(35:24):
about the wind phone in a second.
But there were some things thatwe put in place that sort of
started with Oliver and andbeing able to follow those
through and continue some ofthose pieces in the community,
like, for example, we, whenOliver died, in lieu of flowers
(35:45):
we said, if you want to make adonation to, there was a there
still is a first respondersfoundation in Evanston.
It's pretty small and Oliverwas elected to be on the board.
He was the youngest boardmember no exaggeration by about
60 years.
Um, and so much money came in inOliver's name, in his honor,
(36:11):
that we were able and this is,you know, this is Oliver working
.
Wherever he is, he's stillworking his magic.
So the fire, so all this moneycame in and the fire department
needed these three machines.
They're called Lucas devicesand if you've ever seen them
like on TV or just it, what theydo is we didn't know about them
(36:34):
before, but it's like a machineand it goes over a person's
chest and it provides continuousCPR.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Impressions, and so if you know, if the fire
department is trying to get up asmall staircase or if someone
has like fallen into a smallspace, right, it's a way that
this person can have continuousCPR.
So, like if a firefighter iswalking upstairs and trying to
give someone CPR, it's going tobe almost impossible.
Right, a machine that goes ontheir chest.
(37:03):
And they said our dream is tohave three of these machines and
the total came out to.
So the money that was raisedjust in Oliver's honor we didn't
ask anybody to donate was$55,000 over a very short period
of time and literally theamount of these three machines
was like $55,000 minus $300.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Wow, it was a significant amount it was.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Just they're thrilled .
And I still talk tofirefighters who say you know, I
know we don't tell you this alot, but we use these machines
every day and they are savingpeople's lives.
Gosh, that's amazing.
And then, and then we've alsobeen able to, with the money
that we have that we had savedin Oliver's 529, we've been
(37:55):
funding little bits of ofparamedic school for people who
might not be able to affordtheir education in paramedic
school.
The program that he was in wasthrough our community college,
and so we've been able to reachout to the community college.
Our high school now has thisgreat paraprofessional program
(38:18):
in health, and so we've beenable to provide these smaller
scholarships for students whomight otherwise not be able to
complete their education in thefield.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
That's just incredible.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
So that again, I feel like Oliver would be just so
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Oh gosh, yes.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
And then so for me it's been more about like action
.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
What can we do to stay to help?
What can we do to be involved?
My husband is much moreintroverted.
He, he manages his grief verydifferently.
I'm much more like like frontof the house, you know, in a
restaurant, like, hey, how can Ihelp you?
Yeah, and he's much more kindof in the back, supportive,
(39:04):
doing things that I wouldn't beable to do.
So that's for a whole otherdiscussion, right, how do you
manage if you are in apartnership and you lose your
child?
But I think, knock on wood, wesupport each other in the
different ways that we can.
And the one thing can Itransition to just quickly,
talking about the WinPhoneAbsolutely.
(39:26):
Yes, I'm excited for you to tell, so I won't be too long winded
about it.
But after Oliver died I foundout.
I did not know what a windphone was and I found out about
the concept from, I think, afriend told me.
I sort of forget how I heardabout it, but there's a Japanese
landscaper who lives in Japanand in 2010, he lost his cousin
(39:48):
to cancer and he was so bereftthat he created what looks like.
It looks like a vintage Britishphone booth, but it's all white
, it's beautiful, and it sat inhis back, like his beautifully
landscaped backyard in a in atown in Japan, and he had a
disconnected rotary phone thathe put into the phone and he
(40:11):
called it the wind phone andthere's obviously a Japanese
term for it, I forget what it?
is, but I wouldn't be able topronounce it anyway and the
translation is like your wordsare getting carried off by the
wind.
And so his idea was he couldconnect with his cousin by
picking up this receiver andtalk to his beloved cousin.
(40:33):
A year after that, the tsunamihappened in Japan and thousands
and thousands of people died andwere unaccounted for, and it
affected very much the town thathe lived in.
So he and you can, you know,you can look it up.
He, he moved the wind phone toa public garden, beautiful park
(40:55):
that overlooks the Pacific ocean, and he and his wife still care
for the wind phone.
They're the, they're like theirsole caretakers of this wind
phone, and people, people travelfrom all over to visit this
original wind phone, and sincethen other people have had this
idea and there are hundredsaround the world now that are
(41:16):
documented.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
I'm sure there are even more.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
And it can be as simple as a phone attached to a
tree, you know, just adisconnected phone.
It can be any simple structure.
So I heard about the WinPhone.
I started doing research on it.
There's a wonderful websitethat's mywinphonecom.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
And there's a woman, amy Connelly Dawson, who lost
her daughter and who heard abouta wind phone and loved the idea
also and has now been has beenchronicling these wind phones as
as many as she can learn about.
Yeah, they're on a map, you canlook at it.
There's also a Facebook pagecalled my wind phone and it's a
not a private Facebook page andI connected with her and there's
also really good advice if youwant to try to bring a wind
(42:08):
phone to your community.
So I had this idea.
I didn't know what it wouldlook like and there's a friend
of ours who is very involved inour city and he loved Oliver and
Oliver, like, spoke at achamber of commerce meeting, I
mean, they just had this reallyrelationship and he's my age,
(42:32):
you know, and he has kids, ourkids ages, and he lives down the
street and he's really alsoinvolved in our public golf
course and he said he loved theidea and he said, oh my gosh, go
big or go home.
I imagined a bright red, youknow, thinking of Oliver's fire
truck like red British, areplica of a British phone booth
(42:52):
.
And so you know, I meanliterally within days, he
brought this to the um, to thecanal shores, that's the public
golf course, to the the boardand they, right away they
accepted.
You know they're like, yes,we'd love to do this.
And also, within days hespearheaded raising money to get
(43:14):
this phone booth.
And I mean in two days weraised, you know $4,000 or
something.
It all just happened so fastand I feel for people who in
their communities want toestablish a wind phone and
sometimes there's a lot ofbureaucracy in the city that
they live in.
So I completely and anyone'shappy.
You know, anyone can reach outto me, but I completely
(43:35):
empathize with those who aretrying to get this into their
town and for whatever, whateverreason, have some.
There's some resistance.
Yeah, we were so lucky so,literally within weeks, this
beautiful British it looks likea British phone booth exactly
shows up on the golf course.
And I bought just on eBay, Ibought just an old rotary phone
(43:56):
yeah, oh my gosh.
And there have been somenewspaper articles written about
it and it's had enough sort ofpress that people are coming to
see it and we live just a blockand a half from there.
So in the summer we'll walkthere pretty much every day and
we'll meet people who arevisiting the wind phone.
Or if someone's you know, Ialways give people privacy, of
(44:19):
course, but if someone's justcome out of the wind phone, I'll
say, oh my gosh, tell me, yougosh, tell me about how you
heard about this.
And then I had the idea tostart painting little rocks and
placing rocks first in the windphone with people's names on
them, and decorating them.
And I reached out to ourcommunity, our Evanston
(44:39):
community, on a parent's privateFacebook page and I've had
hundreds and people I know on aparent's private Facebook page
and I've had hundreds and peopleI know, hundreds of requests.
I've probably painted 500 rocks.
Oh my gosh and they sit thereand people can add their rocks.
So this whole process of youknow, establishing the wind
(45:01):
phone, articles written about it, people interviewing me,
getting people's names right,it's very ritual for me, very
much a ritual.
I sit at this dining room tablewhere I'm talking to you now, I
paint and I have 50 pagesfilled of the person's name, the
person's name who's requestingtheir beloved person who died,
(45:24):
and I don't anymore because Ihave so many requests.
But I would ask sometimes, likewhat was your person's favorite
color?
Yeah, beginning, and then I gotso many requests that I couldn't
, you know, I just had tobelieve that, like, the color
would be fine, right, justsaying their name, right, just
saying their name and have it,have it like something about
writing it down, having it on apiece of paper, imagining that
(45:45):
person and um, and that I, youknow, nothing is going to heal
the grief, right, but but justlike how writing right now is,
has become a very passionateproject for me.
Sitting down, doing thatcreative work really really just
helped me connect with my owngrief and with the grief of
(46:06):
other people in a bigger way.
So the wind phone has been andit's a, it's a beautiful symbol
and people have had gatheringsthere.
I have gatherings there.
We've had Oliver's candlelightvigils there the past couple of
years.
And didn't you say?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
people have planted flowers that you don't even know
.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Yes, they're beautiful tulips right now that
sprouted last summer, sproutedlast spring.
I don't know who planted them.
I have a feeling it was one ofmy neighbors, but no one wants
to take credit for it, it'sbeautiful though it's sort of
like a garden fairy, it'sabsolutely beautiful and it's a
space.
It's a public space, so it's aspace for anybody.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I just love that.
Oh my gosh, I want a wind phonesomewhere nearby, don't you?
We'll help figure it out, Iknow.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I want you to, I would love to help and, as I
said, it's a very simple concept.
It can be.
You know how a lot of peoplehave those little mini libraries
.
Yeah, yes, it can be that witha little receiver on the inside
and a sign to say what, this isright, it does not have to be
this grandiose.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh, that is just so beautiful and, just like Oliver
that you said, that touched somany different people and his
energy and spirit gets to liveon.
And so, going to the wind phone, it's that same thing.
Everybody gets that chance tokind of speak their love um into
the wind, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
And it's very.
I just want to say one morething.
It's, it's really thissurprised me, um, which is kind
of funny that it surprised me,but visiting the wind phone
every day and going in andpicking up the phone it took me
a while to actually go in andpick up the phone and call
Oliver and talk to him.
And I talked to him all the time.
You know I'm always talking to,I feel like I'm always having a
(47:55):
dialogue.
But there was really somethingdifferent about walking into the
wind phone, picking up thisheavy receiver, and it was so
emotional and it was so kind ofcathartic and it felt different.
It felt different than all thediscussions I'm having with my
dad, even when I talk out loudreally had this very powerful
effect on me.
So if you ever do see a windphone, don't be scared.
(48:20):
Right, you run into it.
There's no right or wrong, butit is a very, a very powerful
experience.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
That is just incredible.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Oh my gosh, thank you for sharing that.
I, yeah, I really would lovefor you to help us get that here
.
That would be incredible, andmaybe there is one here.
We'll have to look on thatwebsite and see there could be
one in Georgia already.
Yeah, oh, that is incredible.
(48:53):
Well, you know, one of thethings that Amy and I talk about
a lot and ask our moms and ofcourse, you know we had shared
this with you, but you know wewant to end our podcast coming
back to Oliver.
But before we do that, justwhat's?
You know you've talked about somany different things.
How would you whittle that downinto?
You know what's like livingthis this last three and a half
(49:14):
years?
What would be the you know kindof one to three sentence?
What's the advice of whatyou've done?
How would you pare that down?
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, that's a great question and I know you asked
that sort of for me to thinkabout it and just a few minutes
ago, and I think for me, and Ithink probably this is not a new
thought, but the challenge ofand we can do this right, I am
(49:43):
learning that I can do this.
It's the challenge ofintegrating integrating the loss
, integrating the secondarylosses, integrating all of it
right, all of it.
Losing a child and how we trulyare.
I am such a different personthan I was three and a half
(50:04):
years ago and again, it's notabout fixing or making things
better.
Quote unquote better.
I know in the moment sometimeswe need to do that for ourselves
, to get out of a certain stateof mind or but it's, it's
allowing the grief in at alldifferent times and knowing that
(50:28):
it's it's going to lookdifferent every single day,
every single moment and that Ineed to, and I have been, and
it's a slow process, again,there's no timeline for it, but
like integrating this new lifewithout our child physically
present.
I do feel Oliver's with me, butit's like learning a new
(50:48):
language, right.
So it's a learning process.
And again, I don't think that Iunderstood that about grief
before and there's no sort ofbefore and after.
It's sort of like we're in themiddle, I'm in the middle of
this process, so I don't knowthat.
That answers a question, exceptthat when I feel stuck, when I
(51:09):
feel like I'm having a reallyhard day, excuse me, I just need
to remember that this is sortof temporary in terms of feeling
the stuckness, feeling thesadness.
I know that it's not like thatall the time, like it was at the
beginning, right, it shifts allthe time.
Like it was at the beginning,right, it shifts.
I get a lot more joy.
I'm so excited to meet and totalk to the two of you, right,
(51:33):
so letting those glimmers inalso is really important that it
doesn't take away from thegrief, but our lives can become
more whole, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
And I love that term integration because, yeah, amy,
and I talk about that a lot ofyou know it is about being so
intentional, with one facingyour grief, but two really
seeking joy and light and lifeagain.
And that word just reallyconnects with me today, that
(52:03):
integration, because it isn'tjust a or you know, it's like
okay, right now I'm going to besad, but in a little bit I can
do this.
It's actually both right,you're going to be sad and
you're going to experience thishappiness, you know.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
And that's what I loved when I was first
introduced to you, michelle, andthen to Amy.
Very quickly you were soresponsive to me.
I love the idea of celebratingright and not celebrating the
loss.
Right and not like needing tofind again in quotation marks,
meaning like there's no reasonwhy Oliver died.
(52:38):
I mean I do not right.
And life is not better in anyway.
There's no silver lining hereand connecting and meeting new
moms and meeting new wonderfulpeople and how we, whatever that
next thing is.
What is the next thing we needto do?
Speaker 1 (52:57):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (52:57):
next thing if it's literally taking our next breath
or going outside and listeningto the birds, right.
So I think it's a constantprocess right now of integrating
.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
I love that.
Well, before we go, let's bringit back to your incredible son,
Oliver.
And, like Amy said, we love toask our moms what are three or
four, what are some words thatyou want to leave us listeners
just thinking about thisbeautiful conversation we had
with you.
I always get choked up when Ithink about it.
(53:34):
But just so that we can carry alittle bit of Oliver with, us?
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Yeah, thank you, I do too.
Curiosity he was so curiousabout his world, how things
worked, how to help people.
And I think again about intoback to integration, what I was
you know what we were justtalking about sort of the idea
of, yes, I'm grieving and Istill want to remain curious in
(53:59):
this world.
Right, I always want to helppeople.
That's always been just who Iam.
But his curiosity, his passion,he had so much passion for life,
for his friends, for people,you know, for his bird.
He loved his bird, hiscockatiel Maxie.
He just, whatever he did, heimbued it with so much passion.
And I hope that we can findpassion right, even if it's like
(54:21):
the little glimmers.
And he had the we don't I don'thave the dimples, he had the
most amazing dimples and I justwant to think he had this
beautiful face and theseincredible dimples.
And when he was little I wouldsay, oliver, I'm just going to
curl up and take a little nap inyour dimple.
And he didn't believe it wasgoing to happen.
But he kind of would look at melike how is that Did she?
(54:43):
How is she going to do that?
And I just I love that, I lovejust thinking about like his
little dimples.
So just our children's beautyright.
So those are a few things Hiscuriosity, his passion, his
dimples.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
That's so precious, oh my gosh.
Well, I know I have justthoroughly enjoyed this
conversation and thank you,thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, and I don't know about you, amy, but I heard at
least three different topicsthat, mary, we would love to
have you come back and talk withus about, so I've got them
listed.
We'll be in touch.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
I am here to see Dial ladies?
Yes, we would love that.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, we will thank everyone for being here and
thank y'all for listening, and Ican't wait to have Mary back
another day.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
Oh, thank you so much and I'm sending my love to all
the listeners right now, truly.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Till next time, till next time Bye.
Hello and welcome back to Warrior Moms.
I am Michelle Davis, carter'smom.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am Amy Durham, alex's mom, and we are so
grateful to be here with a newfriend that we just made via the
World Wide Internet.
You know the World Wide Webalways brings us to cool people
and cool stories and sad stories, but you know we hate that
we're here, but we love thatwe're here at the same time and
(00:27):
to support each other.
But we have Mary Leopold andshe is in the north suburbs of
Chicago and she is here to tellus about her, her son Oliver,
who passed away back in 2021,and how she's, you know, managed
to get out of bed and keepmoving every day.
So, mary, thank you so much forbeing here with us today.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's so nice to be here.
I wish it were under differentcircumstances, but I'm so happy
to be connecting with all of you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yes, oh, my gosh.
Well, yes, just start us out,tell us about your Oliver.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, oliver, like all of our children, was an
extraordinary child.
I think that he lived more inhis 19 years than truly, than
most people that I know of anyage.
He just he packed so much in.
He was such a passionate,passionate young man.
So he, as a lot of our children, was, you know, very affected
(01:31):
by COVID in terms of theisolation.
Oliver very, very extroverted,really liked to be helping out
in the community.
He was known to everybody inhis high school in terms of what
he did with technology and hedid the morning announcements
every morning Cute and he becamethe voice of his high school of
(01:56):
4,000 people, huge public highschool.
Wow.
He decided that his senior yearhe was an incredible student
and he decided to.
Well, he took an EMT course hissenior year at night and he had
been involved in this wonderfulprogram in our community for
(02:18):
high school students who weremaybe they were interested in
the fire department.
Oliver didn't necessarily wantto become a firefighter, but he
they were interested in the firedepartment.
Oliver didn't necessarily wantto become a firefighter, but he
was very interested in, kind oflike, the mechanisms of how the
fire department worked and hewas in this great program with
his peers for four years andbecame really close with all the
(02:40):
people in the fire department.
The chief, the I mean the chiefonce helped Oliver change a
flat tire of.
I mean just, he just kind ofembedded himself and he actually
created an app during hisjunior year, I think, or senior
year, that actually was put onall the rigs in our city and
(03:00):
that he created this app thatbasically encapsulated like he
didn't have to rewrite anyinformation, but any any sort of
medical emergency informationwas much more easily accessible
with this app.
Um and so the fire departmentwas using this app, so he just a
brain like no other.
(03:21):
A brain like no other.
My husband and I are bothsocial workers.
I'm a psychotherapist inprivate practice, have been for
many years.
His brain worked so differently.
He literally kind of came outinto this world as a little
entrepreneur and he was alwaysinterested in inventions and
numbers.
He was also very, very social.
(03:42):
So he had this wonderfulcombination of completely
extroverted, was comfortable ina crowd and he just had this
mind that just worked all thetime.
His first video he bought withthe money that he saved.
It's so wonderful to tell thesestories.
(04:02):
It's been a long time.
He bought an old well, it's notold, but just like a cash
register Now you don't see themanymore but like a Casio,
whatever cash register.
And he did his first littlevideo on YouTube with his little
like high pitched voice.
He was wearing a little hislittle blazer how to use this
(04:23):
cash register and it had like800,000 views.
It was crazy and he started aYouTube channel which I have not
had the heart to look at.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Thousands of followers and he would talk
about.
He would talk about technology,or one of his really popular
videos was and he would do thison his own.
You know, was how like a childcan use get a debit card and use
a debit card if they're kind ofand how to do that.
And so his mind was just.
(04:56):
He was just constantlyproducing and thinking about
ways in his school, in thecommunity, even when he was
little, how to kind of makechanges.
And he was in middle school andhe was asked to speak at
Northwestern's business schooloh my gosh, young
entrepreneurship.
And again he had this squeakylittle voice.
(05:17):
He hasn't reached puberty yet.
He's talking to all thesegraduate students.
So he was we really, and Ithink this is true for a lot of
our children.
You know, we let we, let himlead us.
He was he.
His mind works so differently.
He has so much passion and driveand he was such a good kid in
(05:38):
terms of he didn't act out andit would have been fine if he
had right, if he had had typicaladolescence, but we, we really
just let him lead and he led usto incredible places and places
that we would have, you know,never gone, and this is
experienced.
Yeah, that that really is.
They're all dear to my heart,but this sort of tells you a
(06:00):
little bit about Oliver.
So so he ended up doing EMT, anEMT program, his senior year,
his first semester.
He really wanted to.
Everything was, you know,everything was shut down with
COVID.
Everything was remote.
It was so hard for him and hereally had this idea that he
could help out during COVID andhe didn't know how that would
(06:22):
look.
But he did get his EMT degree.
He ended up graduating early,which he reached out to the
school.
He reached out to the schoolshe applied to.
You know what would this looklike?
Would this be OK?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And it was very much OK.
He had been such a stellarstudent and so he graduated
early and he ended up working atour local hospital, which has a
few different locations, and heworked in the emergency room
and then he also worked on aprivate ambulance At what age?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So he would have been like 17?
.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He was 18 when he so he was a senior in high school,
in high school but graduatedearly, graduated in December and
, literally like days later, wasalready working 12 hour shifts
at the hospital.
And he was very by choiceTotally by choice, yeah, yeah,
completely by choice and he wasworking on it for a private
(07:23):
ambulance company, so he'dhelped do transport and he was
very, very humble and very sortof quiet about the work he was
doing.
I think that a lot of what hesaw was probably very intense
and he had a wonderful colleague.
He had wonderful colleagues atthe hospital, but he came home
(07:44):
and he just wanted his kind ofhis quiet time.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And we obviously we respected that we were making
sure that he wasn't getting toooverwhelmed by the work he was
doing.
He seemed to be managing itreally well and he ended up, so
this was his, so what would havebeen like his winter semester
of high school.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And then he went through the graduation and
everything and then he decidedto.
He applied to schools and hedecided to defer for a year and
he was admitted to paramedicschool and he wanted to study
bio, but first it was computerscience and then he switched to
biomedical engineering.
He had a best friend who wasshe was studying biomedical
(08:30):
engineering.
So he said he didn't want to bea doctor which you know would
have been fine, of course orparamedic, but he really, he
just really loved this hand, thehands-on piece of it.
So he was in paramedic school.
He was also still working inthe emergency room.
I don't know how he did it, buthe just had so much energy to
(08:52):
just to help and to kind of bein the world in such a way that
I really have yet to meet anyonelike that.
As extroverted as I am, I reallylike to come back to myself,
have my quiet time.
I'll have a day seeing am.
I really like to come back tomyself, have my quiet time.
I'll have a day seeing clients.
I'll need my time at night torelax.
(09:14):
Tonight, you know, he just wasfully engaged all the time and
he this is a fun story he boughtit's crazy.
So he and I think part of itwas COVID and just being so kind
of locked in right as so manyof our kids really struggled
with that, he ended up buying.
It was an auction, we neverthought it would happen.
He bought a decommissioned firetruck.
(09:37):
Okay, so crazy story.
So he had said, like that hewanted to buy like a
decommissioned ambulance.
And my husband and I said, ohhoney, that's easy.
Like where are you going topark it?
Okay, so where are you going topark it?
Ambulance, which now, lookingback, would have been so much
easier than a fire truck, a 42foot fire truck, 42 foot, and it
(10:06):
was literally.
He was like working and he said, oh, mom and dad, you know I
put in an offer on this firetruck and we just sort of
ignored it.
He was always sort of thinkingabout this.
Hours later I got the firetruck.
It was an Evanstondecommissioned fire truck, so it
had been used in Evanston foryears.
It was from like the 1980s orsomething.
(10:26):
So our first question you knowwe're practical and it wasn't
that expensive, it was his money.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Where are you going to park it?
Yeah, and he's like, oh gosh, Idon't know when am I going to
park it.
You can't park it anywhere.
You can't park it on a citystreet.
No Parking pad in back of ourhouse.
It's not 42 feet long.
This is Oliver.
He just thought it was thecoolest thing.
We were confused why not?
(10:54):
We were totally freaked outabout it.
I mean, I didn't even want totell friends about it, I was so
freaked out about it.
His friends thought it was thecoolest thing.
They had all sorts of ideas forit and it ended up that he did
find a parking spot for it inlike an outdoor lot somewhere.
And you know, his, his um, thepeople at the fire department,
(11:19):
like the captain, and he wasreally close with one of the um,
with one of the chiefs and oneof the captains, and they loved
this and they would actually goand he got his permit and they
would.
But he couldn't drive it alone.
It's this huge, I mean huge,and he would.
They would take turns drivingwith him and so you know I love
(11:42):
hearing the stories of that hewould go out and they would like
show him how to put gas in itand they cleaned it one day and
they brought it down to thebeach and he actually was able
to bring it.
He didn't drive it, but he wasactually able to bring it to a
summer camp that he used to workat as a counselor.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
And he brought it to them and the kids got to kind of
go in and out and he, you know,there was 150 foot ladder on
(12:27):
the top of it.
Crazy story.
It's also beautiful that when hedied, we were able to donate it
to the largest fire traininginstitute in the Midwest where
he had gone over differentsummers, for, you know, a day or
two at a time for training withhis peers in the fire
department students, and so wewere able to donate it, and this
was June.
After he died in December, andit was a beautiful ceremony.
They dedicated, they put thisbeautiful decal on the side fire
truck.
So these are the kinds ofthings like.
This is Oliver's energy.
Yeah, as you can see, as I'mtalking to you, I'm getting more
(12:48):
sort of energized and excitedand these were just the kinds of
things that he did.
He left he sort of left thingsbetter than when he found them.
It sounds like it In a lot ofways.
And he I don't want to dwelltoo much on his death, but his
death was completely unexpected.
I was home, he was home, myhusband was at work and it was a
(13:13):
Thursday morning and because ofCOVID, there's a Thursday
morning yoga class I've beendoing for years, decades I've
been doing this class and itobviously had moved to remote
and usually on Thursdays Oliverwould work a 12 hour shift, like
11 to 11.
But we knew, since Oliver'swork schedule was so busy and he
(13:34):
would often take on extrashifts, that we never woke him
up.
You know, even though he wasn'tin college that year, he really
, we felt, really wanted to betreated like an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Our teenage kids do.
But really all of his, all ofhis friends were at college, so
we really let him come and gohave a schedule.
So I didn't really thinkanything at first of not seeing
him that morning.
Yeah and um, I finished my yogaclass and I went into his room
and he was I can't even say theword, but he was not alive.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
He was in his bed.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It looked like he was sleeping.
There was nothing out of theordinary.
It was the most horrifyingexperience.
It's hard to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I'm so tired.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
My husband was at work and, of course, I called
him.
I called 911 and the people whocame to respond were the people
who loved Oliver and knew him,and so, as traumatic as this was
, I was surrounded by thesefirst responders who knew and
loved Oliver, so much Wow.
Chosen family, so to speak.
(14:43):
I mean literally, and we didn'tknow what happened.
We, you know there was no, wejust we didn't know.
We didn't know if he hadingested something, although
that would not have been.
He was, that wasn't who he was,but we, just, we just did it
(15:05):
hot as an 18 year old.
We didn't find out.
We still don't really know.
Everything's still inconclusive.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Gosh.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
So we and we will never know, but we did not know
when he died that right after hedied this was December 9th that
the that all the reports wereinconclusive.
We didn't know that because themedical examiner never reached
out to us.
I think they thought they'regoing to continue to do some
testing.
You know, if we had gotten eventhat little bit of information,
(15:39):
I think it would have helped.
We thought, maybe he died bysuicide.
We just did not know no yeah,nothing to indicate that he
wanted to harm himself.
He, as far as we knew, did nothave any mental health issues
beyond being just an intense kid.
Yeah, he was super driven.
He had just talked to his bestfriend that night.
(16:00):
He had told us he wasn'tfeeling that great.
He went to bed and then fivemonths later we again still
inconclusive.
We got the report that he hadseveral heart conditions not
necessarily that they couldn'tsay for sure what actually, you
(16:24):
know, ended his life.
So there's a piece of this thatI know a lot of moms, parents,
can relate to, in terms of notknowing the whole story.
You know whether your child diedby an unintentional overdose or
right or fentanyl, poisoning orsuicide, or where there just,
(16:46):
or where there are morequestions than answers, and not
that one is any easier than theother in terms of knowing.
My child died, you know was hitby a car.
My child died in an accident.
There's living with this, notknowing, it's excruciating, and
I'm actually in the process ofwriting a memoir right now about
(17:08):
this time between losing Oliverin a very traumatic way and
then my mom died a year ago,died from cancer.
Not that I don't miss herterribly, but it was expected.
We knew that she had stage fourcancer.
We knew when the medicationstopped working.
It was very expected and I'vealways wanted to write about
(17:33):
Oliver's death and losing my momin a non-traumatic way and
having that experience opened meup to wanting to write about it
more.
So I'm in the process of writingthis memoir, which is also
really brings in a lot of grieftheory and psychological theory
as a therapist, and I'm juststarting to write about Oliver's
(17:56):
action.
I haven't even written yet andI've written probably 150 pages.
I have not written aboutOliver's death yet.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I have not written about Oliver's death.
Yet oh, we know, that is.
I mean, it's so physically andemotionally exhausting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
We were just talking because we've written a book, a
group, a collective book of 14moms, so yeah, so I mean we know
how grueling it is to writeabout that.
Yeah, revisiting that traumafrom the book that we're writing
, because 14 of us have eachwritten a chapter specifically
about our child, the trauma andeverything, and it's hard.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I'm so looking forward to your book.
I think it's going to add somuch to this, to the grief space
Right, Because there are and mybook is not, will not be a
grief guide, Because there areand my book is not, will not be
a grief guide.
And and I don't think yourswill either, except that right,
how each of you has coped andmanaged.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Ours is a survival guide.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
A survival guide.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's a survivor's guide is what?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
ours is.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So I'm in the process of writing and recalling and,
you know, putting everything,getting everything onto paper,
yeah, Well, and I'm sure, likeyou said, as a therapist, to see
(19:34):
these two traumas back to backand to come at it.
You know, theoretically, andthen just personally too, I bet
that has just been anextraordinary journey and it's
going to be an extraordinaryread.
Yes, I'm really looking forwardto it.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And I think also being a psychotherapist and I've
been in the I graduated over 30, almost like 31 years ago,
which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Careful now.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, I know I don't want to age myself here.
I was a baby when I went tocollege?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
But having the experience of being a
psychotherapist and really beingkind of metaphorically like on
the other side of the couchright now.
Right, I am a grieving mom, agrieving daughter and.
I've been working with griefand working with people who are
going through all kinds of griefmy whole career.
And what is it like, right,when you, the sort of
(20:24):
professional I'm putting it inlittle quotation marks become
that griever?
Or become that mom who's sobereaved.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And so what is it like?
Do you feel like you've givenyour clients in the past, your
patients in the past, the rightadvice, or are you coming at it
at a different?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
angle.
Now I'm coming at it from avery different angle and I write
about that, and I write abouthow, in the past, even four
years ago, three and a halfyears ago Oliver died three and
a half years ago that I wouldfeel, I don't know if the need
or the pressure whatever theword is to fix it, to help fix
it.
(21:01):
I need for this person to leavethis therapy session feeling
better about their grief,feeling more resolved about
their grief, about their grief,feeling more resolved about
their grief, whatever the wordwas I wasn't doing it right.
Why was this person stillfeeling stuck in their grief?
And that I just if I read more,if I go to more conferences on
grief, I'll be able to help somuch more.
(21:25):
And I think now, as we all know, it's sitting in it right, it's
sitting through it.
And with my clients they don'tall know that I've lost a son.
I don't, obviously, the peoplewho were working with me when
Oliver died, no.
But if I have a new client andI'm sure people Google their
(21:46):
therapist but people, not.
Everybody knows and that's fine.
So not everybody knows thatI've had these losses, that I
lost my mom a year ago and theydon't need to know.
Obviously this is not about mywork, this is about the work
that I'm doing with them.
And I think what I have foundin myself is I'm just so much
(22:08):
more patient with myself as atherapist, knowing that this is
a process, this is a journey.
There's no beginning, middleand end.
Well, there are sort of there'sthe acute grief and then sort
of middle grief.
There's no end to grief and mesitting with that in myself and
knowing that about my ownprocess, I think has helped me
(22:29):
be much more relaxed with myclients about grief, much more
open in terms of again, notabout my own experience,
necessarily, I'm not bringingthat into the therapy unless it
feels like it could betherapeutic or helpful,
depending on it varies client toclient.
But just knowing the grief,knowing the devastation and the
(22:54):
trauma, and also knowing thatthat we can, whatever that next
step is literally if it's, ifit's getting out of bed the next
morning, if it's taking ashower, right it just.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's these baby steps that personal experience
definitely helps relate toidentify with that person.
We have some moms that in ourgroup that they're like I don't
want to go.
They find more comfort in us,just as you know friends with
that have lost a child than theydo in the counselors that
(23:27):
they've seen, because they'relike they can't.
They just can't relate, eventhough they're an expert on
grief.
They've never lost a parent ora child or a spouse or you know
they.
Just they haven't lived it.
And even though you can studyit in a book, it doesn't
translate into the same wayanyway.
(23:50):
Same way.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, and even as a therapist, I have not turned as
much to therapy during this timeof grief as I thought I would.
I joined and I was really luckythat this came about.
And actually this is related,like very directly related, to
Oliver.
It's hard as a psychotherapistin this community that I've been
(24:11):
in for so long to try to findsomeone I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I reached out right.
I mean, it's kind of yeah, andso I reached out to a woman who
works in grief and and, um, shesaid to me I have to tell you
and I never met her, I didn'tknow her from anybody else,
except that I didn't know hershe said, I just want to tell
you, my husband runs theemergency room at the hospital
(24:37):
where Oliver worked and he lovesOliver.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, evenjust reaching out to a therapist
, like this person knows Oliver,Like that's kind of how Oliver
worked, Like he really did havehis little in so many parts of
the community.
Anyway, she ended up, she endedup running which was really,
(24:59):
really lovely, if that's theright word a short term group
for bereaved moms who had lostyoung adult children more
recently.
So we were all in the same agerange, Our kids were in the same
age range, we were sort of insimilar stages of our grief.
Yes, and then I met with atherapist and it was wonderful,
(25:19):
um, who does more somatic workand I do some of that in my work
with clients a little bit, Um,but she was more trained in it
and it really helped and this is, you know, a different
discussion, but it really helpedaround like the trauma of
seeing Oliver in his bed thatmorning and it's sort of like
(25:39):
EMDR.
You know where you'reretraining.
It wasn't EMDR, but retrainingyour brain and it sort of
softened that literally thattrauma and it sort of softened
that, literally that trauma.
I have found, though, thatreaching, you know, connecting
(26:00):
with other moms not that I don'tconnect with fathers, but
connecting with other moms hasbeen for me the most helpful in
terms of socially in terms ofsocially connecting around our
grief.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, I mean, we can't even put words to it.
I don't think Amy and I talkabout it a lot, but just without
having to say a word, we canlook at each other as grieving
moms and you just see somethingon their face and you don't have
to say a word.
We just, we understand eachother.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
It's like you're already there.
You're already there, right.
It's like everything that camebefore.
I mean it matters who ourchildren were, who they are,
right, it all matters.
But there is something about Iget tearful just thinking about
it something about that, justlike that instant connection
that we're all holding this painand we can hold it for each
other.
So I think therapy if someonedecides, just because I'm a
(26:58):
psychotherapist, if someonedecides not to be in therapy
around their grief, that's fine,right.
As long as people have somesort of feeling that there's
support, that there's some kindof community, whether it's
structured or not, right.
And I think your group ofwarrior moms is just the perfect
example of of creating,creating community.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, community Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And we say all the time that we're not therapists,
like we'll have people that'llcome in, we're all in their
grief and we're like whoa, likewe're not, we're not therapists.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We'll have people that'll come in very raw in
their grief.
I know, yes, I'm sure, andwe're like whoa, we're not
qualified.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Is that right?
Right, we can sit with you inthe grief and we certainly know
the pain, but, yeah, we're notprofessionals and we are
currently struggling with thatjust because you know we've had
so many wonderful new moms comeand we're at that point, I think
, in just a group, as anorganization, where we're
(28:00):
growing faster than you know.
We, we need to put something,some sort of kind of protocol,
together that says you know,please go seek someone.
You know whether it's atherapist, a pastor, you know
somebody that is in this griefspace, you know.
(28:20):
And, of course, and come backyou know, with welcome arms,
exactly.
But it's a both, you know, it'sa both for sure.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And I'm sure that that's tricky, right In your
situation where it's more social.
And obviously, in my situationas a therapist it's very
different.
That's what people are comingto me for.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So what have you done for you?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
What have they done for me.
Your grief, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
What's helped yeah, so what helped early on and
still helps, but it's changed isthat in the really early days
it was the middle of winter inChicago.
I don't remember what kind ofwinter it was.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think it was Chicago winter right, it was
cold, that's all I know.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Cold for you guys, for us probably just typical
winter.
Yeah, it was cold, that's all Iknow.
Cold for you guys, for us,probably just typical winter.
Yeah, it was COVID.
So as much as we had peopleover visiting, it was still
pretty controlled in terms ofmasking and everything.
So I love to walk and I had awalk every morning for weeks and
(29:28):
that was the only thing on mycalendar and people really came
out of the woodwork and duringCOVID I think we all felt so
isolated and during COVID I'mlike, do I even have any friends
left?
We're not seeing anybody, we'renot interacting very much and
that was so grounding for me tohave those cold morning walks
(29:52):
talking about Oliver, connectingwith people around my grief,
and it sounds so simple.
But there was something thephysical environment of, like
breathing the cold air.
I actually love the wintershere, breathe it within reason,
right, but I do enjoy the changeof seasons and the cold and I
(30:13):
love walking in the cold.
And there was just somethingabout like the sensory
experience of being in the coldwith like that bracing cold.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Somehow I just I, I felt better.
I felt physically better, Ifelt emotionally better and that
was that structured my day.
Those were early days I did.
I ended up going back to workabout a month, maybe five weeks,
after Oliver died.
That was.
I'm very fortunate that I'm inprivate practice.
My husband has a salary, youknow I I understand my privilege
(30:45):
there that I because I'mself-employed that I was able to
decide I didn't have to worryabout bereavement and all the
terrible things that can happenat work.
So I really recognized that.
So it was about five weekswhere I felt ready to start very
slowly with clients and Istarted off slowly and a couple
(31:05):
of people a day or a few peopleduring the week, and it really
helped for me to be back at work.
I've been with the samecolleagues.
We're not a group practice, weall function independently, but
we've been together for years.
I mean I think I've been withthese same people for like 25
(31:26):
years and now a few people haveretired.
They're older than I am so Ifelt such a safety in going back
to work which I know a lot ofpeople can't say that they felt
that and I felt so I don't wantto say at the time, going back
to work, I felt very anxiousabout it, but I feel so
passionately about my work andabout my clients, who I truly
(31:47):
love and care for so much, thatconnecting with them again felt
like you know they, they have noidea, I think, how stabilizing
this was for me to work, and forsome people it was too much.
I don't think they couldtolerate the fact that I had
lost my child and left therapyor a lot stayed and we were able
(32:10):
to talk about it in a way and Ithink that's also something
that changed just quickly backto my work as a therapist is
that if people wanted to engagearound my loss, I was very open
with them.
I think that I saw myself notagain, again.
More in retrospect now that Ican think about it, I was sort
(32:30):
of just in it at the time, but Ithink sort of a mirror.
You know that this is what itcan look like, that you can
function again, you can find joyin your work.
If it's work that you love to do, you can connect outside of
your child, and so for thosehours, minutes that I was with
clients, I really felt like Icould step outside my grief and
(32:53):
then I'd come back to it.
Literally I would finish my daysob on the way home in the car.
I also have a regular yogapractice and that's been
consistent and it's a communitythat is very close and this I
found out Oliver died rightafter I had done yoga and the
(33:17):
community really rallied aroundme and it was.
That was really beautiful.
Just the support in thatspecific class.
And that's been a consistent forme and that's been a consistent
for me.
I also am not.
I'm not critical of myself If Ihave a day where my energy is
really low or I feel just reallysad.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I'm three and a half years out and that happens as
much, as as much as ever.
I'm not afraid, it doesn'tchange as we know it, kind of
changes shape and form, but it'sstill there all the time.
It's there all the time, and andI know this is I know this is
something that a lot of grievingpeople talk about and I won't
talk about it too much but justhow relationships change too,
(34:04):
that people you might expect tobe there who aren't there, and
vice versa, and I've had thisgrowing of some relationships
that I hadn't like, people Ihadn't been very close with or
kept in contact with, who reallywho really sought me out
because of either they couldtruly understand or just their
own compassion.
Those relationships have beenstronger than ever.
(34:27):
So there are lots of right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
There are lots of different lines.
Oh gosh, yeah, this journey isjust unbelievable and I love.
I think one of the things justin listening to your story, both
with Oliver and his gift forconnection with people Oliver
and his gift for connection withpeople that you know I see
where he got that with you isthat gift that you have with
(34:50):
connecting with people.
And you know it's no surprisewhen I was listening, that you
went back to work a month, fiveweeks, because you were wanting
to give to, like you said, tothe clients that you cared for
so much.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And that's just that's beautiful to the clients
that you cared for so much, andthat's just that's beautiful,
thank you.
And that has like differentways of staying active, and I
don't mean I mean for me, yes,it's like I like to walk, I like
to be physically active, butthat's not what I mean In this
case.
I mean Oliver was so active inour community and there were
some things that we were able toput in place and I'll talk
(35:24):
about the wind phone in a second.
But there were some things thatwe put in place that sort of
started with Oliver and andbeing able to follow those
through and continue some ofthose pieces in the community,
like, for example, we, whenOliver died, in lieu of flowers
(35:45):
we said, if you want to make adonation to, there was a there
still is a first respondersfoundation in Evanston.
It's pretty small and Oliverwas elected to be on the board.
He was the youngest boardmember no exaggeration by about
60 years.
Um, and so much money came in inOliver's name, in his honor,
(36:11):
that we were able and this is,you know, this is Oliver working
.
Wherever he is, he's stillworking his magic.
So the fire, so all this moneycame in and the fire department
needed these three machines.
They're called Lucas devicesand if you've ever seen them
like on TV or just it, what theydo is we didn't know about them
(36:34):
before, but it's like a machineand it goes over a person's
chest and it provides continuousCPR.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Impressions, and so if you know, if the fire
department is trying to get up asmall staircase or if someone
has like fallen into a smallspace, right, it's a way that
this person can have continuousCPR.
So, like if a firefighter iswalking upstairs and trying to
give someone CPR, it's going tobe almost impossible.
Right, a machine that goes ontheir chest.
(37:03):
And they said our dream is tohave three of these machines and
the total came out to.
So the money that was raisedjust in Oliver's honor we didn't
ask anybody to donate was$55,000 over a very short period
of time and literally theamount of these three machines
was like $55,000 minus $300.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Wow, it was a significant amount it was.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Just they're thrilled .
And I still talk tofirefighters who say you know, I
know we don't tell you this alot, but we use these machines
every day and they are savingpeople's lives.
Gosh, that's amazing.
And then, and then we've alsobeen able to, with the money
that we have that we had savedin Oliver's 529, we've been
(37:55):
funding little bits of ofparamedic school for people who
might not be able to affordtheir education in paramedic
school.
The program that he was in wasthrough our community college,
and so we've been able to reachout to the community college.
Our high school now has thisgreat paraprofessional program
(38:18):
in health, and so we've beenable to provide these smaller
scholarships for students whomight otherwise not be able to
complete their education in thefield.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
That's just incredible.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
So that again, I feel like Oliver would be just so
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Oh gosh, yes.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
And then so for me it's been more about like action
.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
What can we do to stay to help?
What can we do to be involved?
My husband is much moreintroverted.
He, he manages his grief verydifferently.
I'm much more like like frontof the house, you know, in a
restaurant, like, hey, how can Ihelp you?
Yeah, and he's much more kindof in the back, supportive,
(39:04):
doing things that I wouldn't beable to do.
So that's for a whole otherdiscussion, right, how do you
manage if you are in apartnership and you lose your
child?
But I think, knock on wood, wesupport each other in the
different ways that we can.
And the one thing can Itransition to just quickly,
talking about the WinPhoneAbsolutely.
(39:26):
Yes, I'm excited for you to tell, so I won't be too long winded
about it.
But after Oliver died I foundout.
I did not know what a windphone was and I found out about
the concept from, I think, afriend told me.
I sort of forget how I heardabout it, but there's a Japanese
landscaper who lives in Japanand in 2010, he lost his cousin
(39:48):
to cancer and he was so bereftthat he created what looks like.
It looks like a vintage Britishphone booth, but it's all white
, it's beautiful, and it sat inhis back, like his beautifully
landscaped backyard in a in atown in Japan, and he had a
disconnected rotary phone thathe put into the phone and he
(40:11):
called it the wind phone andthere's obviously a Japanese
term for it, I forget what it?
is, but I wouldn't be able topronounce it anyway and the
translation is like your wordsare getting carried off by the
wind.
And so his idea was he couldconnect with his cousin by
picking up this receiver andtalk to his beloved cousin.
(40:33):
A year after that, the tsunamihappened in Japan and thousands
and thousands of people died andwere unaccounted for, and it
affected very much the town thathe lived in.
So he and you can, you know,you can look it up.
He, he moved the wind phone toa public garden, beautiful park
(40:55):
that overlooks the Pacific ocean, and he and his wife still care
for the wind phone.
They're the, they're like theirsole caretakers of this wind
phone, and people, people travelfrom all over to visit this
original wind phone, and sincethen other people have had this
idea and there are hundredsaround the world now that are
(41:16):
documented.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
I'm sure there are even more.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
And it can be as simple as a phone attached to a
tree, you know, just adisconnected phone.
It can be any simple structure.
So I heard about the WinPhone.
I started doing research on it.
There's a wonderful websitethat's mywinphonecom.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
And there's a woman, amy Connelly Dawson, who lost
her daughter and who heard abouta wind phone and loved the idea
also and has now been has beenchronicling these wind phones as
as many as she can learn about.
Yeah, they're on a map, you canlook at it.
There's also a Facebook pagecalled my wind phone and it's a
not a private Facebook page andI connected with her and there's
also really good advice if youwant to try to bring a wind
(42:08):
phone to your community.
So I had this idea.
I didn't know what it wouldlook like and there's a friend
of ours who is very involved inour city and he loved Oliver and
Oliver, like, spoke at achamber of commerce meeting, I
mean, they just had this reallyrelationship and he's my age,
(42:32):
you know, and he has kids, ourkids ages, and he lives down the
street and he's really alsoinvolved in our public golf
course and he said he loved theidea and he said, oh my gosh, go
big or go home.
I imagined a bright red, youknow, thinking of Oliver's fire
truck like red British, areplica of a British phone booth
(42:52):
.
And so you know, I meanliterally within days, he
brought this to the um, to thecanal shores, that's the public
golf course, to the the boardand they, right away they
accepted.
You know they're like, yes,we'd love to do this.
And also, within days hespearheaded raising money to get
(43:14):
this phone booth.
And I mean in two days weraised, you know $4,000 or
something.
It all just happened so fastand I feel for people who in
their communities want toestablish a wind phone and
sometimes there's a lot ofbureaucracy in the city that
they live in.
So I completely and anyone'shappy.
You know, anyone can reach outto me, but I completely
(43:35):
empathize with those who aretrying to get this into their
town and for whatever, whateverreason, have some.
There's some resistance.
Yeah, we were so lucky so,literally within weeks, this
beautiful British it looks likea British phone booth exactly
shows up on the golf course.
And I bought just on eBay, Ibought just an old rotary phone
(43:56):
yeah, oh my gosh.
And there have been somenewspaper articles written about
it and it's had enough sort ofpress that people are coming to
see it and we live just a blockand a half from there.
So in the summer we'll walkthere pretty much every day and
we'll meet people who arevisiting the wind phone.
Or if someone's you know, Ialways give people privacy, of
(44:19):
course, but if someone's justcome out of the wind phone, I'll
say, oh my gosh, tell me, yougosh, tell me about how you
heard about this.
And then I had the idea tostart painting little rocks and
placing rocks first in the windphone with people's names on
them, and decorating them.
And I reached out to ourcommunity, our Evanston
(44:39):
community, on a parent's privateFacebook page and I've had
hundreds and people I know on aparent's private Facebook page
and I've had hundreds and peopleI know, hundreds of requests.
I've probably painted 500 rocks.
Oh my gosh and they sit thereand people can add their rocks.
So this whole process of youknow, establishing the wind
(45:01):
phone, articles written about it, people interviewing me,
getting people's names right,it's very ritual for me, very
much a ritual.
I sit at this dining room tablewhere I'm talking to you now, I
paint and I have 50 pagesfilled of the person's name, the
person's name who's requestingtheir beloved person who died,
(45:24):
and I don't anymore because Ihave so many requests.
But I would ask sometimes, likewhat was your person's favorite
color?
Yeah, beginning, and then I gotso many requests that I couldn't
, you know, I just had tobelieve that, like, the color
would be fine, right, justsaying their name, right, just
saying their name and have it,have it like something about
writing it down, having it on apiece of paper, imagining that
(45:45):
person and um, and that I, youknow, nothing is going to heal
the grief, right, but but justlike how writing right now is,
has become a very passionateproject for me.
Sitting down, doing thatcreative work really really just
helped me connect with my owngrief and with the grief of
(46:06):
other people in a bigger way.
So the wind phone has been andit's a, it's a beautiful symbol
and people have had gatheringsthere.
I have gatherings there.
We've had Oliver's candlelightvigils there the past couple of
years.
And didn't you say?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
people have planted flowers that you don't even know
.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Yes, they're beautiful tulips right now that
sprouted last summer, sproutedlast spring.
I don't know who planted them.
I have a feeling it was one ofmy neighbors, but no one wants
to take credit for it, it'sbeautiful though it's sort of
like a garden fairy, it'sabsolutely beautiful and it's a
space.
It's a public space, so it's aspace for anybody.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I just love that.
Oh my gosh, I want a wind phonesomewhere nearby, don't you?
We'll help figure it out, Iknow.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I want you to, I would love to help and, as I
said, it's a very simple concept.
It can be.
You know how a lot of peoplehave those little mini libraries
.
Yeah, yes, it can be that witha little receiver on the inside
and a sign to say what, this isright, it does not have to be
this grandiose.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh, that is just so beautiful and, just like Oliver
that you said, that touched somany different people and his
energy and spirit gets to liveon.
And so, going to the wind phone, it's that same thing.
Everybody gets that chance tokind of speak their love um into
the wind, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
And it's very.
I just want to say one morething.
It's, it's really thissurprised me, um, which is kind
of funny that it surprised me,but visiting the wind phone
every day and going in andpicking up the phone it took me
a while to actually go in andpick up the phone and call
Oliver and talk to him.
And I talked to him all the time.
You know I'm always talking to,I feel like I'm always having a
(47:55):
dialogue.
But there was really somethingdifferent about walking into the
wind phone, picking up thisheavy receiver, and it was so
emotional and it was so kind ofcathartic and it felt different.
It felt different than all thediscussions I'm having with my
dad, even when I talk out loudreally had this very powerful
effect on me.
So if you ever do see a windphone, don't be scared.
(48:20):
Right, you run into it.
There's no right or wrong, butit is a very, a very powerful
experience.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
That is just incredible.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Oh my gosh, thank you for sharing that.
I, yeah, I really would lovefor you to help us get that here
.
That would be incredible, andmaybe there is one here.
We'll have to look on thatwebsite and see there could be
one in Georgia already.
Yeah, oh, that is incredible.
(48:53):
Well, you know, one of thethings that Amy and I talk about
a lot and ask our moms and ofcourse, you know we had shared
this with you, but you know wewant to end our podcast coming
back to Oliver.
But before we do that, justwhat's?
You know you've talked about somany different things.
How would you whittle that downinto?
You know what's like livingthis this last three and a half
(49:14):
years?
What would be the you know kindof one to three sentence?
What's the advice of whatyou've done?
How would you pare that down?
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, that's a great question and I know you asked
that sort of for me to thinkabout it and just a few minutes
ago, and I think for me, and Ithink probably this is not a new
thought, but the challenge ofand we can do this right, I am
(49:43):
learning that I can do this.
It's the challenge ofintegrating integrating the loss
, integrating the secondarylosses, integrating all of it
right, all of it.
Losing a child and how we trulyare.
I am such a different personthan I was three and a half
(50:04):
years ago and again, it's notabout fixing or making things
better.
Quote unquote better.
I know in the moment sometimeswe need to do that for ourselves
, to get out of a certain stateof mind or but it's, it's
allowing the grief in at alldifferent times and knowing that
(50:28):
it's it's going to lookdifferent every single day,
every single moment and that Ineed to, and I have been, and
it's a slow process, again,there's no timeline for it, but
like integrating this new lifewithout our child physically
present.
I do feel Oliver's with me, butit's like learning a new
(50:48):
language, right.
So it's a learning process.
And again, I don't think that Iunderstood that about grief
before and there's no sort ofbefore and after.
It's sort of like we're in themiddle, I'm in the middle of
this process, so I don't knowthat.
That answers a question, exceptthat when I feel stuck, when I
(51:09):
feel like I'm having a reallyhard day, excuse me, I just need
to remember that this is sortof temporary in terms of feeling
the stuckness, feeling thesadness.
I know that it's not like thatall the time, like it was at the
beginning, right, it shifts allthe time.
Like it was at the beginning,right, it shifts.
I get a lot more joy.
I'm so excited to meet and totalk to the two of you, right,
(51:33):
so letting those glimmers inalso is really important that it
doesn't take away from thegrief, but our lives can become
more whole, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
And I love that term integration because, yeah, amy,
and I talk about that a lot ofyou know it is about being so
intentional, with one facingyour grief, but two really
seeking joy and light and lifeagain.
And that word just reallyconnects with me today, that
(52:03):
integration, because it isn'tjust a or you know, it's like
okay, right now I'm going to besad, but in a little bit I can
do this.
It's actually both right,you're going to be sad and
you're going to experience thishappiness, you know.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
And that's what I loved when I was first
introduced to you, michelle, andthen to Amy.
Very quickly you were soresponsive to me.
I love the idea of celebratingright and not celebrating the
loss.
Right and not like needing tofind again in quotation marks,
meaning like there's no reasonwhy Oliver died.
(52:38):
I mean I do not right.
And life is not better in anyway.
There's no silver lining hereand connecting and meeting new
moms and meeting new wonderfulpeople and how we, whatever that
next thing is.
What is the next thing we needto do?
Speaker 1 (52:57):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (52:57):
next thing if it's literally taking our next breath
or going outside and listeningto the birds, right.
So I think it's a constantprocess right now of integrating
.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
I love that.
Well, before we go, let's bringit back to your incredible son,
Oliver.
And, like Amy said, we love toask our moms what are three or
four, what are some words thatyou want to leave us listeners
just thinking about thisbeautiful conversation we had
with you.
I always get choked up when Ithink about it.
(53:34):
But just so that we can carry alittle bit of Oliver with, us?
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Yeah, thank you, I do too.
Curiosity he was so curiousabout his world, how things
worked, how to help people.
And I think again about intoback to integration, what I was
you know what we were justtalking about sort of the idea
of, yes, I'm grieving and Istill want to remain curious in
(53:59):
this world.
Right, I always want to helppeople.
That's always been just who Iam.
But his curiosity, his passion,he had so much passion for life,
for his friends, for people,you know, for his bird.
He loved his bird, hiscockatiel Maxie.
He just, whatever he did, heimbued it with so much passion.
And I hope that we can findpassion right, even if it's like
(54:21):
the little glimmers.
And he had the we don't I don'thave the dimples, he had the
most amazing dimples and I justwant to think he had this
beautiful face and theseincredible dimples.
And when he was little I wouldsay, oliver, I'm just going to
curl up and take a little nap inyour dimple.
And he didn't believe it wasgoing to happen.
But he kind of would look at melike how is that Did she?
(54:43):
How is she going to do that?
And I just I love that, I lovejust thinking about like his
little dimples.
So just our children's beautyright.
So those are a few things Hiscuriosity, his passion, his
dimples.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
That's so precious, oh my gosh.
Well, I know I have justthoroughly enjoyed this
conversation and thank you,thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, and I don't know about you, amy, but I heard at
least three different topicsthat, mary, we would love to
have you come back and talk withus about, so I've got them
listed.
We'll be in touch.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
I am here to see Dial ladies?
Yes, we would love that.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, we will thank everyone for being here and
thank y'all for listening, and Ican't wait to have Mary back
another day.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
Oh, thank you so much and I'm sending my love to all
the listeners right now, truly.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Till next time, till next time Bye.
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