August 19, 2024 • 44 mins
Can you truly find joy after profound loss? Join us as we explore this compelling question with Dr. Natasha Trujillo, a psychologist who has dedicated her career to helping individuals navigate the intertwining paths of grief, trauma, and performance. In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Trujillo shares insights from her multifaceted career, explaining how grief often intersects with other mental health issues like eating disorders and trauma. Her experiences working with athletes and her deeply personal book provide a foundation for discussing the importance of normalizing grief and avoiding self-criticism along the way.
Family dynamics play a crucial role in our understanding and processing of trauma, as Dr. Trujillo elaborates on the empathy that can arise from recognizing a parent's past traumas. We discuss the unique challenges faced by grieving mothers and the importance of "doing the work" to navigate through grief. From basic survival tasks to deeper therapeutic efforts, Dr. Trujillo stresses the necessity of integrating loss into one’s life while maintaining commitment despite fluctuating motivation. Practical strategies for managing social interactions and the dual nature of life events are also discussed, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging both gains and losses.
Living with both joy and sorrow is a complex journey, one that we explore through various lenses. Dr. Trujillo underscores the significance of open communication within families and respecting each individual's unique coping mechanisms. We touch on the book And She Was Never The Same Again, a multi-generational memoir that encapsulates the lasting effects of grief and loss on families. This episode is a powerful reminder of the value of self-awareness, mutual understanding, and open dialogue in navigating grief and supporting each other. Join us for this insightful discussion and discover how facing grief can eventually lead to finding joy.
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
We'd love to hear from our followers!
Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
Facebook: Warrior Moms-The Club No One Wants to Be In
Instagram: WarriorMoms.SurvivingChildLoss
With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Warrior Moms.
I am Michelle Davis and I amAmy Durham, and we're so glad
that y'all are here and we havea very special guest with us
today.
Michelle, you want to introduceher a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yes, we have Dr Natasha Trujillo here with us,
who is a psychologist whospecializes in grief and trauma
and all sorts of things.
We're going to have her, um,tell us more about her
specialties and, um, she has abeautiful book that Amy and I
both, um have read and it was agreat read.
(00:37):
Yeah, oh, my God, um, and shewas never the same, right Again,
is that the name?
Am I saying that, right, um?
But it was just this beautifulmemoir, like for me personally,
of you know, you being apsychologist and yet hearing you
just be vulnerable as what wereyour own grief and trauma and,
of course, that's what ourpodcast is all about.
(00:59):
Is Amy and I just getting onhere and just talking?
What are we dealing with?
What are the warrior momsdealing with?
And just trying to, exactlylike what you said in the book,
normalize grief and what allthat means.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat your current passions are
in psychology.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
First and foremost, thank youboth so much for having me on,
and I'm glad the book spoke toyou, and that is was exactly my
intention, right?
I want people just to be ableto read someone else's story, or
pieces of someone else's story,and be able to kind of reflect
on themselves and figure out,you know, what is in this for me
and how is this going to helpme with my own brief journey and
(01:41):
process.
So thank you for having me on.
I'm a counseling and sportspsychologist, so that's a fancy
way of saying I was trained as ageneral psychologist, so all
things mental health.
And then I specialize in sportand performance psychology, so
getting more clinical andspecialized training and working
with athletes.
I'm in private practicecurrently and so in that role I
(02:02):
do a few different things.
I do a lot of individualtherapy with athletes Not
everyone I work with is anathlete and I do both current
and former athletes but most ofmy caseload is collegiate, pro
and Olympic athletes, which issuper fun.
And then clinically Ispecialize in grief and loss, as
you said, eating disorders,trauma, anxiety and depressive
(02:23):
disorders, perfectionism, andthen all things performance you
love it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, I'm the type that just jumps right ahead and
do it like I hear something andI just want to comes from the
grief, the traumatic like withus, the traumatic loss and the
grief.
A lot of times theperfectionism and the mental
health disorders like eatingdisorders and all that type
stuff come from, come out of thegrief too, or you know what I'm
(02:51):
trying to say.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, absolutely In fact.
That's something that's why Ilove specializing in both, for
example, eating disorders andgrief and loss.
And then if you throw trauma inthere too, there's so much
grief and loss.
Even if you choose recoveryright, you know, someone chooses
to get treatment and theyrecover from their eating
disorder there's still a lot ofgrief and loss in that, and so
(03:13):
it's like sometimes recoverybrings grief and loss.
There's obviously grief andloss with having something to
begin with or from experiencinga trauma to begin with, and so
there's just so many layers andI feel like those issues can be
so interconnected and peopledon't talk about that a lot.
Right, like grief is almostthis own separate issue and it's
like no, if you've had trauma,you.
There's also a grief processassociated with that.
(03:36):
Now, not all grief means thatthere is trauma, but with all
comma, all trauma, comes grief,in my opinion at least, right.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
They gotta fix the whole circle for it to go around
.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, well, and that was one of the things that I
wanted to ask you in your bookyou had talked about how that
was really a goal of the bookwas to have someone read the
story and to normalize that partof the human fabric that you
know we all are wrapped in isthis is that we all experience
grief and for us I know, amy andI talk about it a lot and that
(04:13):
our warrior moms group um withchild loss, it's out of the
normal.
You know, normal in quotes, um,timeline of life and um, I think
that's you know, having to facethat grief I think every day.
You know it's kind of like welose our breath all over again.
What would be?
(04:35):
We're just going to start witha really hard question, but what
would be your advice?
I don't think that's quite theright word, but just what's your
thoughts about?
You know how we should face it,and not that there's one path,
but just some thoughts aboutdealing with just that horrific
(04:58):
sadness and yet knowing that wealso need to face that to find
joy again.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yes, absolutely, and I love the way that you asked
that, even because it allows meto jump right in with this idea
of should, and so that is one ofthe first things that I
encourage people to think aboutis try to rid yourself from that
word as part of your vocabularyas you're doing this, because
there is not a how-to, there isnot a right way and there is not
just one way to do this, and itlooks different each and every
(05:28):
day.
Right, sometimes multiple timesa day it can look different,
and so that is often where Itell people you know that you're
not crazy, that's actuallyquite normal, and it's a roller
coaster.
Nobody wants to be on,necessarily, but I think adding
this element of self-criticismand judgment on yourself and
setting these expectations ofwhat you should be doing
(05:49):
actually sets you back andprevents you from continuing to
do the work and to figure outhow to integrate the loss into
your life more.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, it makes sense.
I love Amy's phrase that sheoften reminds us where moms is.
Well, you say it, amy, feel thefeels that she often reminds us
where moms is.
Well, you say it, Amy Feel thefeels, Feel the feels.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
If you're happy, be happy.
If you're sad, be sad.
Acknowledge it, identify it andkeep growing with it.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So yeah, yeah, I also think too, setting realistic
expectations about an end pointneeds to take place in that
there is no, there is no endpoint With really significant
losses.
We are never going to return toa former version of ourselves,
and that's why I named the bookpart of why I named the book and
she was never the same again.
Best title ever, I think.
(06:36):
Yeah, thank you.
That was actually the veryfirst thing.
Before I even started writingthe book.
I knew what the last line ofthe book was going to be.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And I knew what the last line of the book was going
to be, and I knew what the titlewas going to be in every
chapter, almost like, and shewas never the same again like
every, which is true.
You go through this and you'reyou're not the same person.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, and so you don't want to set expectations
to try to return to that Cause Ihear that a lot.
Right, people will startworking with me and they'll say,
oh, I just wish I was back tonormal or I just wish I was who
I used to be, which tells me acouple things right.
One is that you do feel orbelieve like that's possible,
because it's not.
But then the other piece ofthat is another grief process,
(07:19):
because, yes, you've lost thisperson or this thing that's
really important to you, butthen you're also recognizing
that you've lost aspects ofyourself, or that certain ways
of being for you are shifting,and so I think that's an even
more complicated, more layeredgrief process.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
On top, I know that right after I lost my son Alec,
he I was like okay, I think itwas six weeks and I was at a
grief therapist office or griefcounselor or whatever and I was
like, okay, I'm just, I justwant to hurry up, hurry this up,
like I just want to get back tonormal, like I just want to go
ahead.
I know I'm going to be upset,but I just want to.
I just want let's just go aheadand fix this now and then I can
(07:55):
get back to my daily life.
And that didn't happen.
It's kind of weird.
You know, here we are fiveyears out and it's still not.
I'm still not back to my dailylife as it was before.
So, and I think that is whatyou said, a big part of the
grief is I'm not capableliterally capable of doing some
things that I did before.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Well, and again, the word you use there, right, still
.
Because that sends this messageof like okay, I'm, I don't have
it together yet, or like whatis wrong with me or why haven't
I figured this out?
So I would encourage you evenwith that word it just, it just
is what it is now.
So that idea of still, I meanyou are, you are moving forward,
(08:38):
you are still living your life,and so if we can just eliminate
that a little bit and give youa different perspective where
it's like, yeah, I'm not, I knowI'm not going to return to that
former self and that is not thegoal.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I'm just figuring out how to readjust and adapt to
what I have now we really dothat with every part of our life
, not just with the grief part,not just with losing our
children.
But, like I was just talking tomy husband earlier, he's like I
hope in 15 years I can still,you know, like hang deer stands
and stuff, because he's gettingready for hunting season we're
hello Georgia, so you know he'sgetting ready for hunting season
(09:13):
.
He's like I hope in 15 years Ican still hang a deer stand.
And I was like I don't, I don'tthink that our bodies in 15
years are going to be able to dowhat we think they can do.
Sure years are going to be ableto do what we think they can do
.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Sure, and that's just the evolution of time.
Oh for sure, yeah, first andforemost, I love the hunting
reference.
I'm from Wyoming, so that makesa lot of sense to me.
But yes, and this is also ahuge reason why I wrote the book
, so each chapter of my book isfocused on a different type of
grief and loss, because I thinkanother huge misconception is
that, well, I'm not grieving ifI haven't suffered a death loss,
(09:49):
and that is so not true, andeven if you have suffered a
death loss, there are othergrief processes that come along
with that, that have nothing todo with death.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, and this kind of goes with it, your
chapter where you were talkingabout trauma shadows really was
striking.
Yeah, it was really striking tome, of course, and you were
talking about kind ofgenerational, which for us, you
know, we're kind of like thefirst bearer of that torch,
(10:20):
right, because it's our childthat's died.
And so now our grief and ourdecisions and our relationships,
we're carrying that into somuch of course of our every
daily life and I was wondering,I wanted to ask you, what advice
could you give us to recognizethat we're, you know, we might
(10:44):
be pulling that grief into thesedecisions and maybe we need
something to kind of like stepback and give ourselves, I don't
know, some grace or somethingto just so that you aren't, I
guess you know, perpetuating orcarrying extra anger or whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, two things come to mind
right off the bat, right, andthat is being self-aware and
kind of knowing yourself andknowing how a significant loss
has impacted you.
And then the other is beingwilling to do the work right,
like how much are you willing orwanting to accept that that
could affect you, and so howaware do you want to be and what
(11:23):
do you want to do with that?
I think that's also part of whyI really wanted to include the
trauma shadows chapter, becausefor me, not just as a
psychologist but as a daughterknowing and understanding some
of my mom's traumas thatoccurred before I was even alive
right, that's not my story.
I was not there for a lot ofthose things, but it makes me
(11:47):
understand where she is comingfrom in a way that doesn't make
me any less frustrated,sometimes, right, like I still
get.
She's still my mom, right, soI'm still gonna get irritated.
However, it allows me to take astep back and when I'm able to
make sense of what's going onfor her, I cope with it better.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And so that's also what I would encourage, and even
her being able to have thatawareness of like, yeah, of
course I'm going to worry aboutyou and be super focused on your
health, because I almost diedwhen you were born and then you
almost died when you were, soall of these things pile up and
she was like I have some prettygood reasons to be anxious.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
And so her trauma response.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Her grief response is often that anxiety of like I
just must control and fix andmake sure nothing happens.
And then we have to say okay.
But that also means you kind ofjust want me to live in a
bubble and not do anything withmy life, and that's not really
balance right?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah Well, and you said, you know you were talking
about that.
You know we have to do the workand at our wire moms group
we'll often have, you know, newmoms that that will come.
And you know, I mean gosh Amy,some of them are what, two,
three weeks after we have hadvarious, I mean yes, and we're
(13:04):
so glad that they you know thatthey have been brave enough to
come and to carry that griefWe've had some that still cannot
even say their child's name,Like they can't even.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They're crying so hard they can't even get their
child's name out to even beginto tell us.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And then something that you know those of us that
are further along, you know inyears anyway of you know, from
when our child has passed iswe've wondered how do you say
that to somebody?
Because that's something thatwe've realized is the moms that
continue to come back to warriormoms are the ones that are very
(13:43):
intentional about exactly whatyou're saying do the work.
So I just wondered what?
From your professional lens?
What does that, what does dothe work really mean?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Again, it all starts withawareness and I think it starts
with being able to be honestwith yourself and just kind of
see how certain events in yourlife have impacted you.
I mean, essentially that's whyI wrote the entire book, because
I was grieving and I was notimpressed with how I was
grieving and I was like what isgoing on Right, like what?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
what is?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
happening that I'm in this place, and so I think
doing the work requires acertain level of vulnerability
that is not for the faint ofheart right, and sometimes that
can be really, reallychallenging.
But I think I've also noticed inthe longer I've done this work
as a psychologist you have tomeet people where they are and
so, for example, right one ofthe chapters in my book I talked
(14:35):
quite a bit about my grandpaand my dad's side and some of
the intergenerationalrelationships.
I so badly want him to do hisown work, and if he's not
willing, I can't do anythingabout that.
But, I can at least set thestage and try to show up as a
good example and let people know, hey, I'm doing the work for me
(14:57):
and it's open, if you want totake it like it could.
So sometimes it's just plantingseeds to take it right Like it
could.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So sometimes it's just planting seeds and saying
you know Well and I have afollow-up question to that too
so okay, so we're going to tellthese moms that are, you know,
two months out, three months out, and we're like you just have
to do the work.
And then the question back iswell, what is the work?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, oh my gosh.
Yes, and especially like rightafter.
Sometimes they're my defaultresponses you just got to
survive.
Yeah, I don't know that we'retrying to dig in and do a lot of
deep work right after, and sosometimes I think and this it's
a bit of an ambiguous answerwhich can really frustrate
(15:41):
people sometimes, but I do thinkit is the right answer, which
is like the work looks like,whatever you need it to be- that
day.
So if you just need to make sureyou get three meals in, that
day right If you just need tomake sure you get whatever
responsibility that you reallyneed to tend to that day.
So I think sometimes doing thework is that just sort of
tangible what do I need to do tosurvive versus what is the work
(16:04):
you know in like a deepertherapeutic sort of are you?
aware of what you were doing andthen just, you know the baby
steps and yeah, yeah, I alsothink a lot about integrating
the loss into your life as partof doing the work, because,
again, we can't separate thesethings and have multiple
(16:27):
versions of ourselves.
The loss is going to be carriedwith us.
And so when I think about thatidea of integration, I think
about facing reality andaccepting reality, and I always
encourage people to thinkthrough.
You don't have to like or agreewith something to accept that
it is.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, that it is right.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So I think that can also be something that
encourages people to do the worka little bit more where it's
like I don't, and givingthemselves a little bit of
leeway with the motivation.
You're not going to have thesame level of motivation every
single day.
I talk a lot about thedifference between commitment
and motivation.
So can you be consistentlycommitted to something such as
(17:11):
right doing the work, butmotivation changes on the daily?
Yeah, absolutely, but I like tokind of section that out and
help people understand.
You know we want you to becommitted to trying to figure
out what rebuilding your lifelooks like, but we also know
that that is not going to lookthe same every day.
So the work will change andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I love that.
Yeah, so the work will changeand that's okay, I love that
yeah, I do too.
You just had a nice bow on it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
For us, that was perfect, yes exactly, I wish
None of these things.
Have nice bows on them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
There are no bows in this.
Well, and you had talked alittle bit about you know.
I wondered if you know well,you had said that in your book
that interviewing and talking onthe phone and reading the
chapters back to your loved ones, that all that was therapeutic
for you and you could see someof it being very therapeutic to
(18:05):
your family.
Is that part of that work too?
I mean, does it have to come intalking aloud, or are there
other ways that you can kind offace the grief but you know, not
just like sitting in your ownhead, but is there something
about having to do it outwardlyin some way, even if it's not
(18:26):
sharing to another human?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Such a great question .
That's part of why I wrote thebook right, Because I'm a
psychologist and I specialize ingrief and loss, and I was
having trouble with my own grief, and so there was a lot of
shame there.
There was a lot of like I can'ttalk to it, I'm the expert,
whatever that means, right?
What is that about?
So that's why I started writing, and I always encourage people,
(18:49):
especially with something likegrief.
You do not have to go sit in acircle with a bunch of other
people and swap stories.
There are so many ways to bevulnerable.
There are so many ways to allowsome of what bounces around in
your head to be externalized,and it doesn't always require
that another person has to bethere.
Now, I think the idea ofconnection is really important.
(19:12):
So, whatever it is you'rechoosing to do, do you feel
connected to that thing, orconnected to yourself, or
connected to your values or toother people?
So I think that plays a longrole, a strong role.
But I also don't I don't wantpeople thinking too narrowly
that you know, doing the workmeans you have to go to
individual therapy and then youhave to go to group therapy.
(19:32):
I mean, it can look so manydifferent ways and it's
definitely not a one size fitsall.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think that's a good , that's good advice, because so
many people say, oh well, doyou have a good therapist?
You know, that's like theirfirst thing, because they're
trying to fix us, they're tryingto fix our hurt and they're
like oh well, have you found agood counselor?
And you know, there's somewomen in our group that are like
no, I don't want to talk to.
I want to talk to y'all thathave been through this, I don't
(19:57):
want to talk to somebody elsethat has not been through this.
And then they just tell me whatthey learned in a textbook.
You know, and so it is.
Everybody has different.
And then there's some that seetheir therapist every week and
they're like I have to and Ineed to, and you know, that's
what helps me move forward.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So yes, yes, you know , and of course I'm a little
biased, but I believe in thepower of therapy and I think it
can be really useful.
But you get out of therapy whatyou put into it right.
And so if someone is truly likeI'm not there and this is not
for me, then that isn'tsomething that I would recommend
for them.
Right?
It's like you gotta hey, yougotta figure out what might be
(20:38):
useful.
That's the part of the work.
You just brought up a beautifulpoint about the social
constraint that I feel, likeyour group in particular might
feel, more than other types ofloss, and what I mean by social
constraint is this loss.
And what I mean by socialconstraint is this, this sense
of because of what I've beenthrough, this person or you know
(20:59):
, I feel constrained.
I feel like I can't fully beopen or vulnerable because other
people don't know how to dealwith my feelings or with what I
might say.
And, like you said, there'sthis pressure where they want to
say the right thing or theywant to fix it or they want to
make you feel better and I, andit's every aspect, whether it's
going running into somebody atthe grocery store or going to a
(21:19):
child's soccer game and meetingnew parents.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm a teacher, so every single year at parent
night, you know and you shareabout your family.
I mean, there's just so manythings that exactly that.
I love that.
Those two words together.
The social constraint, becausewe crave that social afterwards,
right, and yet there's kind ofsome guilt with wanting to be
(21:43):
social and yet we are soconstrained, feeling like we're
going to ruin everybody's timebecause of what we're bringing
to it somehow.
Or they watch us walk in thedoor.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
When you think about how much that stunts the grief
process, it has a really largeimpact on people.
Social constraint was actuallyone of the variables in my
dissertation when I was gettingmy doc and one of the things
that I was looking at.
I was actually looking atparent-child relationships and
different types of parentalabsence and unmet needs, and I
won't get too in the weeds here,but something that is super
(22:16):
fascinating and one of the bestexamples I have to demonstrate
this is if you have someone inyour life who dies by suicide
versus someone in your life whodies by cancer the constraint
that you feel right.
How comfortable do you feelsaying this is how my loved one
died.
This is how my loved one died?
That plays a huge role in howcomfortable people feel being
(22:40):
willing to get out and share andget that connection and support
, because sometimes it's like Ican my son.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
He was a recovering addict.
You know he had alcoholism andaddiction issues.
However, he was sober at thetime that he passed.
He still had a bad day anddrank so much and then drowned.
And so you know it's just kindof weird.
But there are people in ourgroup whose children passed away
(23:14):
of a fentanyl overdose.
They weren't drug addicts butthey experimented or tried it
for the first.
You know, whatever they were,you know did it socially,
whatever, but they still andthey have a hard time.
You know here it took me yearsto say out loud that my son was
an addict and I can say that outloud, that my son was an addict
(23:37):
and I can say that.
But for them they're stillhaving that shame that their
child even took a drug they tooka Xanax that was laced with
fentanyl or whatever.
So and also the suicide they dohave a different demeanor about
, like you said, how they diedand that is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
That's huge.
One of the things I hadstumbled upon that first couple
months after losing Carter wasand it was actually in a
psychologist a psychologist hadwritten it about divorce but one
of the pieces of it and she hadgone through a divorce and she
had said write your trauma storyin three sentences and write it
(24:17):
over and over again in anotebook, take it into the
bathroom, say it to the mirror,say it until it's kind of that
muscle memory.
And that was something thatreally helped with that social
constraint.
It didn't make it easy but ithelped me.
Yeah, I knew what my sentenceswere going to be, to say how
(24:37):
many children I had, whathappened to Carter, so that it
was kind of like a little bitfreeing, like you know, like you
have a tiny bit of control, youknow where it's, like okay, I
know, I know I can say this, Iknow what's coming out of my
mouth A lot of times.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I don't know what's coming out of my mouth.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That helped me in particular.
I'm not sure why, but Well,what is when you think about
like something that you know wewere just talking about, this
social constraint and what goesalong with that for so many of
our moms is this guilt of havingfun.
(25:18):
And when you come to thewarrior moms our group it's
interesting.
You would think you had walkedinto like a month club.
Yeah Well, a wine and dinnerclub, I mean, it's loud, it's
silly, it's lots of laughing.
And I remember being reallyshocked and so pleasantly
(25:40):
pleased at seeing these.
You know, these strong women iswhat I immediately thought of,
that were engaging in joy.
And so what advice through?
You know, as you're workingthrough clients with grief,
would you say.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'll try to keep this concise because this is one of
my soapboxes.
I can get on.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, good.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Part of why I wrote the book is to help people
understand and illustrate thegains and losses that come with
every life event, right?
So whether your life event isdesirable or undesirable, it is
going to come with both gainsand losses.
So a couple examples that I usefor this my best friend had a
baby a couple of years ago.
Primarily successful event,right, positive, desirable, all
(26:28):
those things.
However, she lost sleep, shelost her body, she lost she
didn't lose her best friend, butwe do not hang out near as much
as we used to, and so there arelosses with that.
This is a primarily good eventon the flip side, even with some
of the darkest experiences thatwe have, and this is not
something that I would tell tosomeone immediately after a loss
(26:51):
in mind, but in time you seegains right, like what you just
described is one of them.
Now you have this community.
You have built this and it'sfor terrible reasons and ones
that you would, I'm sure, takeback if you could.
Right, there is community,there is a sense of
belongingness and connection,and so the gains and losses is
(27:13):
something that I would reallyencourage to answer your
question and to help peoplebetter understand that most
things in life.
Again, I was very intentional toname my book starting with the
word and, because most things inlife are both and it is duality
.
And I think, as humans, when weare able to sit in that gray
and understand the both and and,the duality that exists in most
(27:35):
of these situations, I think wecope a lot more effectively.
Yes, it's more messy, it'sharder to categorize, it's
harder to deal with, but thatacceptance of like, yeah, this
is a both, and I'm going toexperience intense moments of
sorrow, but if I didn't lovereally hard, I would never have
that sorrow to begin with.
And so it is a both and, and soI encourage people not to feel
(27:59):
guilty for experiencing that joy, but just holding it with the
same place that you hold yoursadness to.
It's both.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And Michelle's quote her famous quote is living in
the, and so I love that you saidthat you started it with an and
because she's like living inthe and she's like there's joy
and sorrow, you know there'slaughter and tears at our
meetings, you know.
So that whole that is huge thatyou said you started it with an
(28:26):
and because you're right,there's and in everything.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well and when you know it's interesting.
So you said you're working withum.
You know all these athletesthat have um, you know these
strong goals and they have.
You know what many peopleespecially.
You know pro athletes andOlympians that have these
incredible things.
You know that, both that theirgoals are and that they're
(28:54):
achieving, and yet you know they.
They have griefs, as you know,grief moments and things that
they're carrying through.
And that just made me, when youwere introducing that I was just
thinking about our survivingchildren.
You know that we, we ourselves,as parents, are carrying this.
You know this really heavy oneas parents are carrying this.
(29:16):
You know this really heavy one,and often I think I forget to,
to allow, I think, my daughterlike, okay, there's this grief
that she's dealing with too,that is completely separate from
this and yet, in and of itself,it's still something that she's
working through.
What would be a good reminderfor us as as moms that are
carrying this.
And then also just how youvalidate, because I know we talk
(29:37):
about, like when people come upand they're like, oh well, you
know, I understand, because mydog died or something, and it
just feels so insensitive, butyet there's a truth to that
right Because they loved theirdog or whatever the loss is.
And just what would be someadvice, whether it's with
friends or surviving kids, justto remember.
(29:58):
You know something specificabout grief from your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Oh my gosh, yeah, what a good question.
Again, this is a huge reason whyI wrote the book, and you'll
see this kind of towards the endof the book where I speak to
the life and the death of mygrandma, who was by far the
closest person in the world tome, and it was incredible to get
my family together and to kindof have this conversation about.
Let's talk about how we'vechanged, let's talk about how
(30:26):
we're grieving, let's talk aboutwhat you need, what I need, how
.
Sometimes those are verydifferent things and so that we
all know that, right, we all seehow each person in our family
is interacting, and so you pickup on things, but there isn't
necessarily direct andmeaningful conversations about
that, and so that is somethingthat I would encourage, right,
(30:47):
someone being able to again beself-aware and to kind of say,
okay, what I might need in thismoment or how I might be coping
could be different than so andso, and that is okay.
But facilitating communicationand kind of figuring out, you
know, help me understand that.
The one of the best examples Ican give you is my grandpa.
After my grandma died, he'sprobably been the most stoic and
(31:08):
, in my opinion, just likeseemingly unchanged, and it
pissed me off.
I was like yeah, what is it?
I don't, I don't like howyou're reacting and again even
as someone who specializes ingrief and loss.
It is a psychologist I had tocheck myself.
I'm making assumptions and I'mtrying to you know what I need
for myself, that's trying howI'm trying to make him grieve.
(31:30):
And that's not okay, that's notmy place, and so I think another
piece to that is saying even ifyou don't understand or maybe
you don't even agree, can youstill allow that person to have
their space and to to cope andto do whatever it is they're
doing to again survive.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
sometimes it's not just to do the work, but
sometimes it's just well, andthat's a big point for husband
and wives, to married couples,because men and women, oh yes,
gosh yes, oh, communication ishuge there because they do
grieve differently yeah, yeahone.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Sometimes we don't necessarily understand it and
again for my I guess in my caseand speaking with my grandma, it
was unanimous Everyone was like, oh yeah, me, I had by far
changed the most and that wasn'tnecessarily for the better to
be able to talk about that andjust to kind of acknowledge it
(32:27):
and own it.
I think that is doing the workyou know, not that I need to
apologize for it or anything inthat way, it's just like, yeah,
we got to acknowledge that thisis where we're at, and what do I
want to do with that?
Right, right, once I have thatawareness, I can figure out
what's working, what's notworking.
You know Well, a lot of peopleI know and I'm speaking from
(32:48):
experience here.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I am the kettle and is you just want to ignore it?
Like cause, like in our, in myfamily, it's in my extended
family, like we just don't.
We'll talk about, oh, the goodtimes with Alec and all that
kind of stuff, but I'muncomfortable talking to my
parents about it.
I'm uncomfortable talking, youknow, because I know they're
uncomfortable.
(33:10):
We're very Southern.
We don't talk about those, youknow the big deal things.
So it's Constraints.
Yes, yes, it's uncomfortableand let's just be happy and you
know, and we are a close familyand everybody loved Alec and
it's just, but it is, I am thefirst one to shy away from it
and just push it down.
So we don't have to.
(33:30):
Let's just not talk about it.
Let's just talk about the goodtimes, you know.
So I get it.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, Well, that does come back to the both and right
.
That doesn't mean you need tolive in the good times all the
time, but you don't need to livein the bad ones either.
But I think it's just kind offiguring out how to strike that
balance for yourself so thatyou're not my gosh.
I'll never forget this.
I was talking about my grandmaone time and speaking to my
(33:55):
partner at the time, and it wasso fascinating because the
response was you know, you'realmost doing a disservice,
because I was just saying Idon't, it's hard, I don't want
to talk about her, I don't wantto bring her up, and the message
was like you're almost doing adisservice because you're not
acknowledging how important shewas to you.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
That really hit me and it was like oh, wow, Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I guess I hadn't thought about it like that, and
so I think it's just trying tostrike that balance and again,
that's, there's no pretty bow onthat, because that balance can
look different every single day.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I was telling Amy, it just fits exactly what you're
saying.
One of my son's friends gotmarried this weekend and had
invited us to attend and acouple of years ago, same thing
one of his friends had gottenmarried and I had said I was
going and then last minute Isaid no, I just can't.
It was just an emotionalbreakdown.
But then I have just carriedthis like guilt and sadness that
(34:55):
I didn't go and so I wasdetermined, just I was going to
do the hard thing and I was hard.
I had lots of tears and cry,you know, crying throughout.
But the stories that I got tohear from their friends about
(35:16):
their friend group and aboutCarter and it, like you said,
the gains and losses, um, andand it is the end, and it was so
incredibly beautiful and Ireally, even though I mean I'm
still super emotional about it,I've got to unpack a lot from
this weekend, but it just therewere so many beautiful things
(35:37):
that there really were moregains than losses in that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yes, Can I?
Can I also say something aboutguilt?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Please.
So this is also one of my veryfavorite concepts.
So when I do work with trauma,I'm trained in a type of therapy
called cognitive processingtherapy and there is this
difference in helping peopleunderstand what is appropriate
guilt versus what ismanufactured guilt Okay and so
(36:12):
appropriate guilt versus what ismanufactured guilt okay and so
appropriate guilt is essentiallyokay.
If I have a fight with mybrother, let's say, and I walk
up to him and I punch him in theface, okay, that is appropriate
guilt, to feel right, I'mviolating one of my own values.
I don't I've never punched himin the face, just so you know,
but if I were to, you'reviolating.
(36:33):
You know you have donesomething wrong by your own
standards, right?
So that is appropriate, becauseyou truly did violate a value
and you got to figure out whatto do with that.
Manufactured guilt is somethingthat I see so much in the work
that I do, because it's you arecreating right.
You are manufacturing guilt,but you didn't actually do
(36:55):
something wrong, so for examplewhether or not you go to that
wedding.
You're not, You're not.
But it's that how you interpretit, it's your response, and so
I just I love that idea and Ioften use it in my clinical work
to help people understand okay,is this manufactured?
Because if it's manufactured,we could play with it a little
bit.
How do we?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
reframe thoughts.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
How do we just challenge some of your beliefs
around some of this in a waythat's going to be helpful for
you versus okay, well, if youpunch your brother in the face,
what are you going to do?
I should probably apologize,not do it again.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Well, it was so brilliant because I had the boy,
the young man, that got married.
He was at this wedding thisweekend and so I said to him oh,
I'm just, you know, I have feltso bad that I wasn't there.
And of course he's like, oh mygosh, we completely understand.
You know, it was just thataffirmation of exactly what
you're saying is, I hadmanufactured this.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yes, and again, I think, for your group.
I could only imagine how muchguilt plays a role right, and
asking yourself regardless ofthe way your child died, what
else could I have done?
Or what about that?
Just replaying all sorts ofthings that you know you can't
even control at this point.
But I think we often do thatbecause trying to figure out how
(38:10):
to blame ourselves or what sortof guilt to carry allows us to
try to take more control overthe situation, and it almost
feels better to blame ourselvesthan it does to realize there
are some things we truly justcannot control.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Yeah.
So yeah, I just something thatcould be particularly useful.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I love that.
Yeah, those appropriate andmanufactured grief or guilt.
Those are our girls for today,for sure, yes, thank you.
Let's wrap up, but what wouldkind of just final thoughts
about grief and maybe comingback to this title of us and she
was never the same and justsome final thoughts between
(38:53):
honoring that and then alsomaybe some hope for those of us
carrying this giant amount ofgrief but yet lots of other
small griefs.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean again, I think one of the
biggest take-homes is just howcomplex this all is and there's
so many layers and there's somany competing needs and just
when maybe you feel like youhave a handle on it, everything
can be rocked and it's likeyou're starting all over.
But I cannot normalize enoughthat that is natural and right,
you are not crazy.
(39:24):
That really is part of theexperience, and I think I have
found in my experience that ifyou are able to lean in right,
you've already done hard.
The fact that you arecontinuing to get up each and
every day you are doing hardthings already and kind of
looking at it from that angleand being able to kind of talk
yourself through, I can and I amdoing hard things I think that
(39:49):
can be monumental in allowingyourself to kind of lean in and
sit with the discomfort in a waythat, like I said, is going to
help you integrate your lossinto your life.
We're not trying to separate orjust have you get over it,
because that's not possible.
Rather, we just want it to beintegrated.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Oh, I love that.
This has just been.
I mean gosh, I don't know aboutyou, amy.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I love it.
Thank you, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Certainly for our listeners, that's for sure.
We thank you so much.
Yes, thank you so much.
And just a little plug for yourbook when can they get your
book?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, where can?
They get the book?
Yeah, so it, um, it's called,and she was never the same again
.
It is currently on Amazon, um,and then it's also on ACX.
So Amazon, um, audible andiTunes.
There is an audio book out nowthat came out just like a month
or so ago.
Um and then my website is well,the book's website is and she
(40:47):
was never the same againcom.
And then my website is well,the book's website is
andshewasneverthesameagaincom.
And then my practice website isnpttherapycom, and there's also
a little map there so peoplecan check out if I'm able to
work with you in your state.
I'm licensed in like 40 states.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
So, yeah, incredible, yeah, wonderful, and the cover
for the book is just gorgeous,my gosh.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yes, oh my gosh, thank you.
Yeah, I have to tell you thatstory.
So my cousin is actually theartist, oh neat.
So he read the book and he cameover and he had three separate
ideas, right.
One was a bunch ofinterconnected ropes.
That was one idea.
One was something with Dove.
In some cultures dovesymbolizes life and some
(41:30):
symbolizes death, and I cannot,for the life of me, remember
what the third one was, butthere were three.
And we were talking and he hadsome questions from the book
that he just asked me.
So he pulled out his iPad andhe just started sketching, was
asking me these questions, andso, as I was answering, he just
he kind of sketched out the doveand there are some other things
(41:51):
over here, and by the end of ithe was like we're going to
combine this and that's how it'sgoing to happen, and it was
just so cool and so organic andwe saw it.
We were both like this is it?
Speaker 2 (42:04):
How long did it take you to write the book?
Is it something you've doneover years?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
or no.
No, so it took 11 months, as wewere kind of saying earlier,
before we got on the call.
When I, when I do something, Idid a chapter a month was my
goal.
Um, because I had to, you know,do the interviews and just kind
of go through the differentstages.
So it was about a chapter amonth, except for the last two,
(42:32):
which was very telling to methat that was still where most
of my grief was was lying Cause.
The last two chapters are aboutmy grandma cried and those were
the two that I just I couldn'teven take breaks.
I was like I just got to get,get it done.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
This is an emotional book for you, I mean I can.
Is an emotional book for you, Imean I can.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
you're having to dig and you're having to identify
within you.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
And my family too, right?
And I just I can't give myfamily enough credit for being
willing.
You know, the tagline or thesubtitle of the book is a
multi-generational memoir.
It's not just my stories, right?
Some of the chapters don't eveninclude me.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
But still, the fact that they include people who are
so pivotal to me means thatthey have impacted and
influenced me.
And that kind of goes back towhat you were saying about
surviving children, and whatdoes that look like, because
you're still going to carry thatgrief, and how does that impact
?
Speaker 2 (43:20):
well, and you're even you're.
You're what great, greatgrandfather or your great or
your grandfather lost a brother.
My grandfather lost a brother,yeah, I mean, and so that I mean
that affected generational forsure.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yes, oh, completely changed the course of my dad's
life, who wasn't even alive atthe time.
Yeah, so so, yeah, I just, Ijust think those connections are
fascinating and so importantand need to be explored a little
bit, because it does help usunderstand why we are the way
that we are, and so, in someways, that's another way of
doing the work, like we weretalking about earlier.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And he said it at the very I think we were off screen
, but it was said.
He said make the untalkablemore talkable.
Yeah, and that's why we're allhere, I think.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I can't thank you guys enoughfor having me on.
Oh my god yes, well what thiswas a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Thank you so much.
Yes, yes, nice to meet you andhopefully thank you so much with
you again.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
All right, bye guys.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Anytime, anytime great, we would love it.
We will be in touch.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Sounds good, take care Thanks, bye.
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Warrior Moms.
I am Michelle Davis and I amAmy Durham, and we're so glad
that y'all are here and we havea very special guest with us
today.
Michelle, you want to introduceher a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yes, we have Dr Natasha Trujillo here with us,
who is a psychologist whospecializes in grief and trauma
and all sorts of things.
We're going to have her, um,tell us more about her
specialties and, um, she has abeautiful book that Amy and I
both, um have read and it was agreat read.
(00:37):
Yeah, oh, my God, um, and shewas never the same, right Again,
is that the name?
Am I saying that, right, um?
But it was just this beautifulmemoir, like for me personally,
of you know, you being apsychologist and yet hearing you
just be vulnerable as what wereyour own grief and trauma and,
of course, that's what ourpodcast is all about.
(00:59):
Is Amy and I just getting onhere and just talking?
What are we dealing with?
What are the warrior momsdealing with?
And just trying to, exactlylike what you said in the book,
normalize grief and what allthat means.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat your current passions are
in psychology.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
First and foremost, thank youboth so much for having me on,
and I'm glad the book spoke toyou, and that is was exactly my
intention, right?
I want people just to be ableto read someone else's story, or
pieces of someone else's story,and be able to kind of reflect
on themselves and figure out,you know, what is in this for me
and how is this going to helpme with my own brief journey and
(01:41):
process.
So thank you for having me on.
I'm a counseling and sportspsychologist, so that's a fancy
way of saying I was trained as ageneral psychologist, so all
things mental health.
And then I specialize in sportand performance psychology, so
getting more clinical andspecialized training and working
with athletes.
I'm in private practicecurrently and so in that role I
(02:02):
do a few different things.
I do a lot of individualtherapy with athletes Not
everyone I work with is anathlete and I do both current
and former athletes but most ofmy caseload is collegiate, pro
and Olympic athletes, which issuper fun.
And then clinically Ispecialize in grief and loss, as
you said, eating disorders,trauma, anxiety and depressive
(02:23):
disorders, perfectionism, andthen all things performance you
love it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, I'm the type that just jumps right ahead and
do it like I hear something andI just want to comes from the
grief, the traumatic like withus, the traumatic loss and the
grief.
A lot of times theperfectionism and the mental
health disorders like eatingdisorders and all that type
stuff come from, come out of thegrief too, or you know what I'm
(02:51):
trying to say.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, absolutely In fact.
That's something that's why Ilove specializing in both, for
example, eating disorders andgrief and loss.
And then if you throw trauma inthere too, there's so much
grief and loss.
Even if you choose recoveryright, you know, someone chooses
to get treatment and theyrecover from their eating
disorder there's still a lot ofgrief and loss in that, and so
(03:13):
it's like sometimes recoverybrings grief and loss.
There's obviously grief andloss with having something to
begin with or from experiencinga trauma to begin with, and so
there's just so many layers andI feel like those issues can be
so interconnected and peopledon't talk about that a lot.
Right, like grief is almostthis own separate issue and it's
like no, if you've had trauma,you.
There's also a grief processassociated with that.
(03:36):
Now, not all grief means thatthere is trauma, but with all
comma, all trauma, comes grief,in my opinion at least, right.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
They gotta fix the whole circle for it to go around
.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, well, and that was one of the things that I
wanted to ask you in your bookyou had talked about how that
was really a goal of the bookwas to have someone read the
story and to normalize that partof the human fabric that you
know we all are wrapped in isthis is that we all experience
grief and for us I know, amy andI talk about it a lot and that
(04:13):
our warrior moms group um withchild loss, it's out of the
normal.
You know, normal in quotes, um,timeline of life and um, I think
that's you know, having to facethat grief I think every day.
You know it's kind of like welose our breath all over again.
What would be?
(04:35):
We're just going to start witha really hard question, but what
would be your advice?
I don't think that's quite theright word, but just what's your
thoughts about?
You know how we should face it,and not that there's one path,
but just some thoughts aboutdealing with just that horrific
(04:58):
sadness and yet knowing that wealso need to face that to find
joy again.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yes, absolutely, and I love the way that you asked
that, even because it allows meto jump right in with this idea
of should, and so that is one ofthe first things that I
encourage people to think aboutis try to rid yourself from that
word as part of your vocabularyas you're doing this, because
there is not a how-to, there isnot a right way and there is not
just one way to do this, and itlooks different each and every
(05:28):
day.
Right, sometimes multiple timesa day it can look different,
and so that is often where Itell people you know that you're
not crazy, that's actuallyquite normal, and it's a roller
coaster.
Nobody wants to be on,necessarily, but I think adding
this element of self-criticismand judgment on yourself and
setting these expectations ofwhat you should be doing
(05:49):
actually sets you back andprevents you from continuing to
do the work and to figure outhow to integrate the loss into
your life more.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, it makes sense.
I love Amy's phrase that sheoften reminds us where moms is.
Well, you say it, amy, feel thefeels that she often reminds us
where moms is.
Well, you say it, Amy Feel thefeels, Feel the feels.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
If you're happy, be happy.
If you're sad, be sad.
Acknowledge it, identify it andkeep growing with it.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So yeah, yeah, I also think too, setting realistic
expectations about an end pointneeds to take place in that
there is no, there is no endpoint With really significant
losses.
We are never going to return toa former version of ourselves,
and that's why I named the bookpart of why I named the book and
she was never the same again.
Best title ever, I think.
(06:36):
Yeah, thank you.
That was actually the veryfirst thing.
Before I even started writingthe book.
I knew what the last line ofthe book was going to be.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And I knew what the last line of the book was going
to be, and I knew what the titlewas going to be in every
chapter, almost like, and shewas never the same again like
every, which is true.
You go through this and you'reyou're not the same person.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, and so you don't want to set expectations
to try to return to that Cause Ihear that a lot.
Right, people will startworking with me and they'll say,
oh, I just wish I was back tonormal or I just wish I was who
I used to be, which tells me acouple things right.
One is that you do feel orbelieve like that's possible,
because it's not.
But then the other piece ofthat is another grief process,
(07:19):
because, yes, you've lost thisperson or this thing that's
really important to you, butthen you're also recognizing
that you've lost aspects ofyourself, or that certain ways
of being for you are shifting,and so I think that's an even
more complicated, more layeredgrief process.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
On top, I know that right after I lost my son Alec,
he I was like okay, I think itwas six weeks and I was at a
grief therapist office or griefcounselor or whatever and I was
like, okay, I'm just, I justwant to hurry up, hurry this up,
like I just want to get back tonormal, like I just want to go
ahead.
I know I'm going to be upset,but I just want to.
I just want let's just go aheadand fix this now and then I can
(07:55):
get back to my daily life.
And that didn't happen.
It's kind of weird.
You know, here we are fiveyears out and it's still not.
I'm still not back to my dailylife as it was before.
So, and I think that is whatyou said, a big part of the
grief is I'm not capableliterally capable of doing some
things that I did before.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Well, and again, the word you use there, right, still
.
Because that sends this messageof like okay, I'm, I don't have
it together yet, or like whatis wrong with me or why haven't
I figured this out?
So I would encourage you evenwith that word it just, it just
is what it is now.
So that idea of still, I meanyou are, you are moving forward,
(08:38):
you are still living your life,and so if we can just eliminate
that a little bit and give youa different perspective where
it's like, yeah, I'm not, I knowI'm not going to return to that
former self and that is not thegoal.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I'm just figuring out how to readjust and adapt to
what I have now we really dothat with every part of our life
, not just with the grief part,not just with losing our
children.
But, like I was just talking tomy husband earlier, he's like I
hope in 15 years I can still,you know, like hang deer stands
and stuff, because he's gettingready for hunting season we're
hello Georgia, so you know he'sgetting ready for hunting season
(09:13):
.
He's like I hope in 15 years Ican still hang a deer stand.
And I was like I don't, I don'tthink that our bodies in 15
years are going to be able to dowhat we think they can do.
Sure years are going to be ableto do what we think they can do
.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Sure, and that's just the evolution of time.
Oh for sure, yeah, first andforemost, I love the hunting
reference.
I'm from Wyoming, so that makesa lot of sense to me.
But yes, and this is also ahuge reason why I wrote the book
, so each chapter of my book isfocused on a different type of
grief and loss, because I thinkanother huge misconception is
that, well, I'm not grieving ifI haven't suffered a death loss,
(09:49):
and that is so not true, andeven if you have suffered a
death loss, there are othergrief processes that come along
with that, that have nothing todo with death.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, and this kind of goes with it, your
chapter where you were talkingabout trauma shadows really was
striking.
Yeah, it was really striking tome, of course, and you were
talking about kind ofgenerational, which for us, you
know, we're kind of like thefirst bearer of that torch,
(10:20):
right, because it's our childthat's died.
And so now our grief and ourdecisions and our relationships,
we're carrying that into somuch of course of our every
daily life and I was wondering,I wanted to ask you, what advice
could you give us to recognizethat we're, you know, we might
(10:44):
be pulling that grief into thesedecisions and maybe we need
something to kind of like stepback and give ourselves, I don't
know, some grace or somethingto just so that you aren't, I
guess you know, perpetuating orcarrying extra anger or whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, two things come to mind
right off the bat, right, andthat is being self-aware and
kind of knowing yourself andknowing how a significant loss
has impacted you.
And then the other is beingwilling to do the work right,
like how much are you willing orwanting to accept that that
could affect you, and so howaware do you want to be and what
(11:23):
do you want to do with that?
I think that's also part of whyI really wanted to include the
trauma shadows chapter, becausefor me, not just as a
psychologist but as a daughterknowing and understanding some
of my mom's traumas thatoccurred before I was even alive
right, that's not my story.
I was not there for a lot ofthose things, but it makes me
(11:47):
understand where she is comingfrom in a way that doesn't make
me any less frustrated,sometimes, right, like I still
get.
She's still my mom, right, soI'm still gonna get irritated.
However, it allows me to take astep back and when I'm able to
make sense of what's going onfor her, I cope with it better.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And so that's also what I would encourage, and even
her being able to have thatawareness of like, yeah, of
course I'm going to worry aboutyou and be super focused on your
health, because I almost diedwhen you were born and then you
almost died when you were, soall of these things pile up and
she was like I have some prettygood reasons to be anxious.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
And so her trauma response.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Her grief response is often that anxiety of like I
just must control and fix andmake sure nothing happens.
And then we have to say okay.
But that also means you kind ofjust want me to live in a
bubble and not do anything withmy life, and that's not really
balance right?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah Well, and you said, you know you were talking
about that.
You know we have to do the workand at our wire moms group
we'll often have, you know, newmoms that that will come.
And you know, I mean gosh Amy,some of them are what, two,
three weeks after we have hadvarious, I mean yes, and we're
(13:04):
so glad that they you know thatthey have been brave enough to
come and to carry that griefWe've had some that still cannot
even say their child's name,Like they can't even.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They're crying so hard they can't even get their
child's name out to even beginto tell us.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And then something that you know those of us that
are further along, you know inyears anyway of you know, from
when our child has passed iswe've wondered how do you say
that to somebody?
Because that's something thatwe've realized is the moms that
continue to come back to warriormoms are the ones that are very
(13:43):
intentional about exactly whatyou're saying do the work.
So I just wondered what?
From your professional lens?
What does that, what does dothe work really mean?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Again, it all starts withawareness and I think it starts
with being able to be honestwith yourself and just kind of
see how certain events in yourlife have impacted you.
I mean, essentially that's whyI wrote the entire book, because
I was grieving and I was notimpressed with how I was
grieving and I was like what isgoing on Right, like what?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
what is?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
happening that I'm in this place, and so I think
doing the work requires acertain level of vulnerability
that is not for the faint ofheart right, and sometimes that
can be really, reallychallenging.
But I think I've also noticed inthe longer I've done this work
as a psychologist you have tomeet people where they are and
so, for example, right one ofthe chapters in my book I talked
(14:35):
quite a bit about my grandpaand my dad's side and some of
the intergenerationalrelationships.
I so badly want him to do hisown work, and if he's not
willing, I can't do anythingabout that.
But, I can at least set thestage and try to show up as a
good example and let people know, hey, I'm doing the work for me
(14:57):
and it's open, if you want totake it like it could.
So sometimes it's just plantingseeds to take it right Like it
could.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So sometimes it's just planting seeds and saying
you know Well and I have afollow-up question to that too
so okay, so we're going to tellthese moms that are, you know,
two months out, three months out, and we're like you just have
to do the work.
And then the question back iswell, what is the work?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, oh my gosh.
Yes, and especially like rightafter.
Sometimes they're my defaultresponses you just got to
survive.
Yeah, I don't know that we'retrying to dig in and do a lot of
deep work right after, and sosometimes I think and this it's
a bit of an ambiguous answerwhich can really frustrate
(15:41):
people sometimes, but I do thinkit is the right answer, which
is like the work looks like,whatever you need it to be- that
day.
So if you just need to make sureyou get three meals in, that
day right If you just need tomake sure you get whatever
responsibility that you reallyneed to tend to that day.
So I think sometimes doing thework is that just sort of
tangible what do I need to do tosurvive versus what is the work
(16:04):
you know in like a deepertherapeutic sort of are you?
aware of what you were doing andthen just, you know the baby
steps and yeah, yeah, I alsothink a lot about integrating
the loss into your life as partof doing the work, because,
again, we can't separate thesethings and have multiple
(16:27):
versions of ourselves.
The loss is going to be carriedwith us.
And so when I think about thatidea of integration, I think
about facing reality andaccepting reality, and I always
encourage people to thinkthrough.
You don't have to like or agreewith something to accept that
it is.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, that it is right.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So I think that can also be something that
encourages people to do the worka little bit more where it's
like I don't, and givingthemselves a little bit of
leeway with the motivation.
You're not going to have thesame level of motivation every
single day.
I talk a lot about thedifference between commitment
and motivation.
So can you be consistentlycommitted to something such as
(17:11):
right doing the work, butmotivation changes on the daily?
Yeah, absolutely, but I like tokind of section that out and
help people understand.
You know we want you to becommitted to trying to figure
out what rebuilding your lifelooks like, but we also know
that that is not going to lookthe same every day.
So the work will change andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I love that.
Yeah, so the work will changeand that's okay, I love that
yeah, I do too.
You just had a nice bow on it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
For us, that was perfect, yes exactly, I wish
None of these things.
Have nice bows on them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
There are no bows in this.
Well, and you had talked alittle bit about you know.
I wondered if you know well,you had said that in your book
that interviewing and talking onthe phone and reading the
chapters back to your loved ones, that all that was therapeutic
for you and you could see someof it being very therapeutic to
(18:05):
your family.
Is that part of that work too?
I mean, does it have to come intalking aloud, or are there
other ways that you can kind offace the grief but you know, not
just like sitting in your ownhead, but is there something
about having to do it outwardlyin some way, even if it's not
(18:26):
sharing to another human?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Such a great question .
That's part of why I wrote thebook right, Because I'm a
psychologist and I specialize ingrief and loss, and I was
having trouble with my own grief, and so there was a lot of
shame there.
There was a lot of like I can'ttalk to it, I'm the expert,
whatever that means, right?
What is that about?
So that's why I started writing, and I always encourage people,
(18:49):
especially with something likegrief.
You do not have to go sit in acircle with a bunch of other
people and swap stories.
There are so many ways to bevulnerable.
There are so many ways to allowsome of what bounces around in
your head to be externalized,and it doesn't always require
that another person has to bethere.
Now, I think the idea ofconnection is really important.
(19:12):
So, whatever it is you'rechoosing to do, do you feel
connected to that thing, orconnected to yourself, or
connected to your values or toother people?
So I think that plays a longrole, a strong role.
But I also don't I don't wantpeople thinking too narrowly
that you know, doing the workmeans you have to go to
individual therapy and then youhave to go to group therapy.
(19:32):
I mean, it can look so manydifferent ways and it's
definitely not a one size fitsall.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think that's a good , that's good advice, because so
many people say, oh well, doyou have a good therapist?
You know, that's like theirfirst thing, because they're
trying to fix us, they're tryingto fix our hurt and they're
like oh well, have you found agood counselor?
And you know, there's somewomen in our group that are like
no, I don't want to talk to.
I want to talk to y'all thathave been through this, I don't
(19:57):
want to talk to somebody elsethat has not been through this.
And then they just tell me whatthey learned in a textbook.
You know, and so it is.
Everybody has different.
And then there's some that seetheir therapist every week and
they're like I have to and Ineed to, and you know, that's
what helps me move forward.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So yes, yes, you know , and of course I'm a little
biased, but I believe in thepower of therapy and I think it
can be really useful.
But you get out of therapy whatyou put into it right.
And so if someone is truly likeI'm not there and this is not
for me, then that isn'tsomething that I would recommend
for them.
Right?
It's like you gotta hey, yougotta figure out what might be
(20:38):
useful.
That's the part of the work.
You just brought up a beautifulpoint about the social
constraint that I feel, likeyour group in particular might
feel, more than other types ofloss, and what I mean by social
constraint is this loss.
And what I mean by socialconstraint is this, this sense
of because of what I've beenthrough, this person or you know
(20:59):
, I feel constrained.
I feel like I can't fully beopen or vulnerable because other
people don't know how to dealwith my feelings or with what I
might say.
And, like you said, there'sthis pressure where they want to
say the right thing or theywant to fix it or they want to
make you feel better and I, andit's every aspect, whether it's
going running into somebody atthe grocery store or going to a
(21:19):
child's soccer game and meetingnew parents.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm a teacher, so every single year at parent
night, you know and you shareabout your family.
I mean, there's just so manythings that exactly that.
I love that.
Those two words together.
The social constraint, becausewe crave that social afterwards,
right, and yet there's kind ofsome guilt with wanting to be
(21:43):
social and yet we are soconstrained, feeling like we're
going to ruin everybody's timebecause of what we're bringing
to it somehow.
Or they watch us walk in thedoor.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
When you think about how much that stunts the grief
process, it has a really largeimpact on people.
Social constraint was actuallyone of the variables in my
dissertation when I was gettingmy doc and one of the things
that I was looking at.
I was actually looking atparent-child relationships and
different types of parentalabsence and unmet needs, and I
won't get too in the weeds here,but something that is super
(22:16):
fascinating and one of the bestexamples I have to demonstrate
this is if you have someone inyour life who dies by suicide
versus someone in your life whodies by cancer the constraint
that you feel right.
How comfortable do you feelsaying this is how my loved one
died.
This is how my loved one died?
That plays a huge role in howcomfortable people feel being
(22:40):
willing to get out and share andget that connection and support
, because sometimes it's like Ican my son.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
He was a recovering addict.
You know he had alcoholism andaddiction issues.
However, he was sober at thetime that he passed.
He still had a bad day anddrank so much and then drowned.
And so you know it's just kindof weird.
But there are people in ourgroup whose children passed away
(23:14):
of a fentanyl overdose.
They weren't drug addicts butthey experimented or tried it
for the first.
You know, whatever they were,you know did it socially,
whatever, but they still andthey have a hard time.
You know here it took me yearsto say out loud that my son was
an addict and I can say that outloud, that my son was an addict
(23:37):
and I can say that.
But for them they're stillhaving that shame that their
child even took a drug they tooka Xanax that was laced with
fentanyl or whatever.
So and also the suicide they dohave a different demeanor about
, like you said, how they diedand that is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
That's huge.
One of the things I hadstumbled upon that first couple
months after losing Carter wasand it was actually in a
psychologist a psychologist hadwritten it about divorce but one
of the pieces of it and she hadgone through a divorce and she
had said write your trauma storyin three sentences and write it
(24:17):
over and over again in anotebook, take it into the
bathroom, say it to the mirror,say it until it's kind of that
muscle memory.
And that was something thatreally helped with that social
constraint.
It didn't make it easy but ithelped me.
Yeah, I knew what my sentenceswere going to be, to say how
(24:37):
many children I had, whathappened to Carter, so that it
was kind of like a little bitfreeing, like you know, like you
have a tiny bit of control, youknow where it's, like okay, I
know, I know I can say this, Iknow what's coming out of my
mouth A lot of times.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I don't know what's coming out of my mouth.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That helped me in particular.
I'm not sure why, but Well,what is when you think about
like something that you know wewere just talking about, this
social constraint and what goesalong with that for so many of
our moms is this guilt of havingfun.
(25:18):
And when you come to thewarrior moms our group it's
interesting.
You would think you had walkedinto like a month club.
Yeah Well, a wine and dinnerclub, I mean, it's loud, it's
silly, it's lots of laughing.
And I remember being reallyshocked and so pleasantly
(25:40):
pleased at seeing these.
You know, these strong women iswhat I immediately thought of,
that were engaging in joy.
And so what advice through?
You know, as you're workingthrough clients with grief,
would you say.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'll try to keep this concise because this is one of
my soapboxes.
I can get on.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, good.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Part of why I wrote the book is to help people
understand and illustrate thegains and losses that come with
every life event, right?
So whether your life event isdesirable or undesirable, it is
going to come with both gainsand losses.
So a couple examples that I usefor this my best friend had a
baby a couple of years ago.
Primarily successful event,right, positive, desirable, all
(26:28):
those things.
However, she lost sleep, shelost her body, she lost she
didn't lose her best friend, butwe do not hang out near as much
as we used to, and so there arelosses with that.
This is a primarily good eventon the flip side, even with some
of the darkest experiences thatwe have, and this is not
something that I would tell tosomeone immediately after a loss
(26:51):
in mind, but in time you seegains right, like what you just
described is one of them.
Now you have this community.
You have built this and it'sfor terrible reasons and ones
that you would, I'm sure, takeback if you could.
Right, there is community,there is a sense of
belongingness and connection,and so the gains and losses is
(27:13):
something that I would reallyencourage to answer your
question and to help peoplebetter understand that most
things in life.
Again, I was very intentional toname my book starting with the
word and, because most things inlife are both and it is duality
.
And I think, as humans, when weare able to sit in that gray
and understand the both and and,the duality that exists in most
(27:35):
of these situations, I think wecope a lot more effectively.
Yes, it's more messy, it'sharder to categorize, it's
harder to deal with, but thatacceptance of like, yeah, this
is a both, and I'm going toexperience intense moments of
sorrow, but if I didn't lovereally hard, I would never have
that sorrow to begin with.
And so it is a both and, and soI encourage people not to feel
(27:59):
guilty for experiencing that joy, but just holding it with the
same place that you hold yoursadness to.
It's both.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And Michelle's quote her famous quote is living in
the, and so I love that you saidthat you started it with an and
because she's like living inthe and she's like there's joy
and sorrow, you know there'slaughter and tears at our
meetings, you know.
So that whole that is huge thatyou said you started it with an
(28:26):
and because you're right,there's and in everything.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well and when you know it's interesting.
So you said you're working withum.
You know all these athletesthat have um, you know these
strong goals and they have.
You know what many peopleespecially.
You know pro athletes andOlympians that have these
incredible things.
You know that, both that theirgoals are and that they're
(28:54):
achieving, and yet you know they.
They have griefs, as you know,grief moments and things that
they're carrying through.
And that just made me, when youwere introducing that I was just
thinking about our survivingchildren.
You know that we, we ourselves,as parents, are carrying this.
You know this really heavy oneas parents are carrying this.
(29:16):
You know this really heavy one,and often I think I forget to,
to allow, I think, my daughterlike, okay, there's this grief
that she's dealing with too,that is completely separate from
this and yet, in and of itself,it's still something that she's
working through.
What would be a good reminderfor us as as moms that are
carrying this.
And then also just how youvalidate, because I know we talk
(29:37):
about, like when people come upand they're like, oh well, you
know, I understand, because mydog died or something, and it
just feels so insensitive, butyet there's a truth to that
right Because they loved theirdog or whatever the loss is.
And just what would be someadvice, whether it's with
friends or surviving kids, justto remember.
(29:58):
You know something specificabout grief from your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Oh my gosh, yeah, what a good question.
Again, this is a huge reason whyI wrote the book, and you'll
see this kind of towards the endof the book where I speak to
the life and the death of mygrandma, who was by far the
closest person in the world tome, and it was incredible to get
my family together and to kindof have this conversation about.
Let's talk about how we'vechanged, let's talk about how
(30:26):
we're grieving, let's talk aboutwhat you need, what I need, how
.
Sometimes those are verydifferent things and so that we
all know that, right, we all seehow each person in our family
is interacting, and so you pickup on things, but there isn't
necessarily direct andmeaningful conversations about
that, and so that is somethingthat I would encourage, right,
(30:47):
someone being able to again beself-aware and to kind of say,
okay, what I might need in thismoment or how I might be coping
could be different than so andso, and that is okay.
But facilitating communicationand kind of figuring out, you
know, help me understand that.
The one of the best examples Ican give you is my grandpa.
After my grandma died, he'sprobably been the most stoic and
(31:08):
, in my opinion, just likeseemingly unchanged, and it
pissed me off.
I was like yeah, what is it?
I don't, I don't like howyou're reacting and again even
as someone who specializes ingrief and loss.
It is a psychologist I had tocheck myself.
I'm making assumptions and I'mtrying to you know what I need
for myself, that's trying howI'm trying to make him grieve.
(31:30):
And that's not okay, that's notmy place, and so I think another
piece to that is saying even ifyou don't understand or maybe
you don't even agree, can youstill allow that person to have
their space and to to cope andto do whatever it is they're
doing to again survive.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
sometimes it's not just to do the work, but
sometimes it's just well, andthat's a big point for husband
and wives, to married couples,because men and women, oh yes,
gosh yes, oh, communication ishuge there because they do
grieve differently yeah, yeahone.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Sometimes we don't necessarily understand it and
again for my I guess in my caseand speaking with my grandma, it
was unanimous Everyone was like, oh yeah, me, I had by far
changed the most and that wasn'tnecessarily for the better to
be able to talk about that andjust to kind of acknowledge it
(32:27):
and own it.
I think that is doing the workyou know, not that I need to
apologize for it or anything inthat way, it's just like, yeah,
we got to acknowledge that thisis where we're at, and what do I
want to do with that?
Right, right, once I have thatawareness, I can figure out
what's working, what's notworking.
You know Well, a lot of peopleI know and I'm speaking from
(32:48):
experience here.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I am the kettle and is you just want to ignore it?
Like cause, like in our, in myfamily, it's in my extended
family, like we just don't.
We'll talk about, oh, the goodtimes with Alec and all that
kind of stuff, but I'muncomfortable talking to my
parents about it.
I'm uncomfortable talking, youknow, because I know they're
uncomfortable.
(33:10):
We're very Southern.
We don't talk about those, youknow the big deal things.
So it's Constraints.
Yes, yes, it's uncomfortableand let's just be happy and you
know, and we are a close familyand everybody loved Alec and
it's just, but it is, I am thefirst one to shy away from it
and just push it down.
So we don't have to.
(33:30):
Let's just not talk about it.
Let's just talk about the goodtimes, you know.
So I get it.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, Well, that does come back to the both and right
.
That doesn't mean you need tolive in the good times all the
time, but you don't need to livein the bad ones either.
But I think it's just kind offiguring out how to strike that
balance for yourself so thatyou're not my gosh.
I'll never forget this.
I was talking about my grandmaone time and speaking to my
(33:55):
partner at the time, and it wasso fascinating because the
response was you know, you'realmost doing a disservice,
because I was just saying Idon't, it's hard, I don't want
to talk about her, I don't wantto bring her up, and the message
was like you're almost doing adisservice because you're not
acknowledging how important shewas to you.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
That really hit me and it was like oh, wow, Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I guess I hadn't thought about it like that, and
so I think it's just trying tostrike that balance and again,
that's, there's no pretty bow onthat, because that balance can
look different every single day.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I was telling Amy, it just fits exactly what you're
saying.
One of my son's friends gotmarried this weekend and had
invited us to attend and acouple of years ago, same thing
one of his friends had gottenmarried and I had said I was
going and then last minute Isaid no, I just can't.
It was just an emotionalbreakdown.
But then I have just carriedthis like guilt and sadness that
(34:55):
I didn't go and so I wasdetermined, just I was going to
do the hard thing and I was hard.
I had lots of tears and cry,you know, crying throughout.
But the stories that I got tohear from their friends about
(35:16):
their friend group and aboutCarter and it, like you said,
the gains and losses, um, andand it is the end, and it was so
incredibly beautiful and Ireally, even though I mean I'm
still super emotional about it,I've got to unpack a lot from
this weekend, but it just therewere so many beautiful things
(35:37):
that there really were moregains than losses in that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yes, Can I?
Can I also say something aboutguilt?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Please.
So this is also one of my veryfavorite concepts.
So when I do work with trauma,I'm trained in a type of therapy
called cognitive processingtherapy and there is this
difference in helping peopleunderstand what is appropriate
guilt versus what ismanufactured guilt Okay and so
(36:12):
appropriate guilt versus what ismanufactured guilt okay and so
appropriate guilt is essentiallyokay.
If I have a fight with mybrother, let's say, and I walk
up to him and I punch him in theface, okay, that is appropriate
guilt, to feel right, I'mviolating one of my own values.
I don't I've never punched himin the face, just so you know,
but if I were to, you'reviolating.
(36:33):
You know you have donesomething wrong by your own
standards, right?
So that is appropriate, becauseyou truly did violate a value
and you got to figure out whatto do with that.
Manufactured guilt is somethingthat I see so much in the work
that I do, because it's you arecreating right.
You are manufacturing guilt,but you didn't actually do
(36:55):
something wrong, so for examplewhether or not you go to that
wedding.
You're not, You're not.
But it's that how you interpretit, it's your response, and so
I just I love that idea and Ioften use it in my clinical work
to help people understand okay,is this manufactured?
Because if it's manufactured,we could play with it a little
bit.
How do we?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
reframe thoughts.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
How do we just challenge some of your beliefs
around some of this in a waythat's going to be helpful for
you versus okay, well, if youpunch your brother in the face,
what are you going to do?
I should probably apologize,not do it again.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Well, it was so brilliant because I had the boy,
the young man, that got married.
He was at this wedding thisweekend and so I said to him oh,
I'm just, you know, I have feltso bad that I wasn't there.
And of course he's like, oh mygosh, we completely understand.
You know, it was just thataffirmation of exactly what
you're saying is, I hadmanufactured this.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yes, and again, I think, for your group.
I could only imagine how muchguilt plays a role right, and
asking yourself regardless ofthe way your child died, what
else could I have done?
Or what about that?
Just replaying all sorts ofthings that you know you can't
even control at this point.
But I think we often do thatbecause trying to figure out how
(38:10):
to blame ourselves or what sortof guilt to carry allows us to
try to take more control overthe situation, and it almost
feels better to blame ourselvesthan it does to realize there
are some things we truly justcannot control.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Yeah.
So yeah, I just something thatcould be particularly useful.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I love that.
Yeah, those appropriate andmanufactured grief or guilt.
Those are our girls for today,for sure, yes, thank you.
Let's wrap up, but what wouldkind of just final thoughts
about grief and maybe comingback to this title of us and she
was never the same and justsome final thoughts between
(38:53):
honoring that and then alsomaybe some hope for those of us
carrying this giant amount ofgrief but yet lots of other
small griefs.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean again, I think one of the
biggest take-homes is just howcomplex this all is and there's
so many layers and there's somany competing needs and just
when maybe you feel like youhave a handle on it, everything
can be rocked and it's likeyou're starting all over.
But I cannot normalize enoughthat that is natural and right,
you are not crazy.
(39:24):
That really is part of theexperience, and I think I have
found in my experience that ifyou are able to lean in right,
you've already done hard.
The fact that you arecontinuing to get up each and
every day you are doing hardthings already and kind of
looking at it from that angleand being able to kind of talk
yourself through, I can and I amdoing hard things I think that
(39:49):
can be monumental in allowingyourself to kind of lean in and
sit with the discomfort in a waythat, like I said, is going to
help you integrate your lossinto your life.
We're not trying to separate orjust have you get over it,
because that's not possible.
Rather, we just want it to beintegrated.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Oh, I love that.
This has just been.
I mean gosh, I don't know aboutyou, amy.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I love it.
Thank you, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Certainly for our listeners, that's for sure.
We thank you so much.
Yes, thank you so much.
And just a little plug for yourbook when can they get your
book?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, where can?
They get the book?
Yeah, so it, um, it's called,and she was never the same again
.
It is currently on Amazon, um,and then it's also on ACX.
So Amazon, um, audible andiTunes.
There is an audio book out nowthat came out just like a month
or so ago.
Um and then my website is well,the book's website is and she
(40:47):
was never the same againcom.
And then my website is well,the book's website is
andshewasneverthesameagaincom.
And then my practice website isnpttherapycom, and there's also
a little map there so peoplecan check out if I'm able to
work with you in your state.
I'm licensed in like 40 states.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
So, yeah, incredible, yeah, wonderful, and the cover
for the book is just gorgeous,my gosh.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yes, oh my gosh, thank you.
Yeah, I have to tell you thatstory.
So my cousin is actually theartist, oh neat.
So he read the book and he cameover and he had three separate
ideas, right.
One was a bunch ofinterconnected ropes.
That was one idea.
One was something with Dove.
In some cultures dovesymbolizes life and some
(41:30):
symbolizes death, and I cannot,for the life of me, remember
what the third one was, butthere were three.
And we were talking and he hadsome questions from the book
that he just asked me.
So he pulled out his iPad andhe just started sketching, was
asking me these questions, andso, as I was answering, he just
he kind of sketched out the doveand there are some other things
(41:51):
over here, and by the end of ithe was like we're going to
combine this and that's how it'sgoing to happen, and it was
just so cool and so organic andwe saw it.
We were both like this is it?
Speaker 2 (42:04):
How long did it take you to write the book?
Is it something you've doneover years?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
or no.
No, so it took 11 months, as wewere kind of saying earlier,
before we got on the call.
When I, when I do something, Idid a chapter a month was my
goal.
Um, because I had to, you know,do the interviews and just kind
of go through the differentstages.
So it was about a chapter amonth, except for the last two,
(42:32):
which was very telling to methat that was still where most
of my grief was was lying Cause.
The last two chapters are aboutmy grandma cried and those were
the two that I just I couldn'teven take breaks.
I was like I just got to get,get it done.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
This is an emotional book for you, I mean I can.
Is an emotional book for you, Imean I can.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
you're having to dig and you're having to identify
within you.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
And my family too, right?
And I just I can't give myfamily enough credit for being
willing.
You know, the tagline or thesubtitle of the book is a
multi-generational memoir.
It's not just my stories, right?
Some of the chapters don't eveninclude me.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
But still, the fact that they include people who are
so pivotal to me means thatthey have impacted and
influenced me.
And that kind of goes back towhat you were saying about
surviving children, and whatdoes that look like, because
you're still going to carry thatgrief, and how does that impact
?
Speaker 2 (43:20):
well, and you're even you're.
You're what great, greatgrandfather or your great or
your grandfather lost a brother.
My grandfather lost a brother,yeah, I mean, and so that I mean
that affected generational forsure.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yes, oh, completely changed the course of my dad's
life, who wasn't even alive atthe time.
Yeah, so so, yeah, I just, Ijust think those connections are
fascinating and so importantand need to be explored a little
bit, because it does help usunderstand why we are the way
that we are, and so, in someways, that's another way of
doing the work, like we weretalking about earlier.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And he said it at the very I think we were off screen
, but it was said.
He said make the untalkablemore talkable.
Yeah, and that's why we're allhere, I think.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I can't thank you guys enoughfor having me on.
Oh my god yes, well what thiswas a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Thank you so much.
Yes, yes, nice to meet you andhopefully thank you so much with
you again.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
All right, bye guys.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Anytime, anytime great, we would love it.
We will be in touch.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Sounds good, take care Thanks, bye.
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