We're not in a material crisis, we're in an atoms and molecules crisis. Welcome to the age of metals.
Polymetallic nodules sit on the sea floor and accumulate atoms from the Seawater. Every element on the periodic table is in solution in the Ocean. Halfway between Mexico and Hawaii there is a very high concentration of Nickel, Cobalt, Manganese, and Copper which is all of the metals that we need for electric cars. So why are we still strip mining huge areas around the world when we could just be picking up rocks from the bottom of the ocean?
"We go down from a ship on the surface. Then there’s a vehicle on the bottom. We haven’t come up with the word for it yet, it’s not really mining, it’s more like hoovering or vacuuming. We’re not destroying, we’re not fracking, we’re not grinding, we’re just picking rocks up." - Dr. Greg Stone
Listen to this episode for our full interview with Dr. Greg Stone, Chief Ocean Scientist from The Metals Company.
To learn more about the Metals Company click here. To learn more about Dr. Greg Stone Click Here and to listen to his podcast the Sea Has Many Voices click here.
The Aquatic Bisophere ProjectThe ABP is establishing a conservation Aquarium in the Prairies to help tell the Story of Water.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Evans (00:06):
Welcome to today's deep dive episode. I'm so
excited to share thisconversation I had with Dr. Greg
Stone. He's the chief oceanscientists for the metals
company. And the metals company,as you'll soon learn is what
might be the future of electricvehicle batteries around the
world. Now, Greg Stone is morethan just a metals guy. He is a
(00:28):
decorated Marine scientist withover 10,000 dives to his name,
and he's dope all around theworld. He's gone down up to
18,000 feet below the surfacehas lifted underwater habitats
proficient with underwaterrobotics. You name it, he's done
it. He's an author, a NationalGeographic Explorer, he was a
science advisor for oceans forthe World Economic Forum. He's
(00:51):
created marine protected areas.
He's done so many differentthings. So I'm so excited for
him to speak for himself andtell you more about what he's
done. So sit back, relax, andget ready to learn a little bit
more about the future ofunderwater metals, and about
ocean discovery. That's funny.
(01:22):
nippy, for me to know, in zoo,to marry a cheap, child away.
(01:42):
Why natural? Water are we doing?
And how can we do better? Yourone stop shop for everything
water related from discussingwater, its use and the organisms
that depend on it. For all theglobal issues that you really
never knew all had to do withwater. I'm your host, David
(02:06):
Evans from the aquatic biosphereproject. And I just want to ask
you something. What are wedoing? And how can we do better?
So welcome to another deep diveepisode of the water. We doing
(02:29):
Podcast. I'm so excited to bespeaking with Dr. Greg Stone. So
Greg, do you mind just givingyourself a quick introduction
telling us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do. And I
know, seeing a quickintroduction might be a lot
because you seem to do quite abroad range of things so
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (02:51):
I can narrow it down. Yeah, I've
been fascinated by the oceansince I was a child. And it came
from watching TV, JacquesCousteau and Lloyd Bridges and
things like that. But I didn'thave a family. It wasn't
interested in it. I just sort offound my way to it. And I
decided quite early on I wantedto spend my time underwater. So
(03:11):
diving was driving me it was itwas it was not science. It was
not conservation. It was notanything else. It was diving, I
just loved diving, was going tobe a commercial diver actually
went down that road and lookedinto it. And then some guy in
the industry pulled me aside andhe said, Hey, kid, this is not
(03:33):
for you. This is basicallyunderwater construction work at
the cube got a little more inyou than this. I said, Oh, I
said, What else can I do? And hesaid, Well look around. And I
looked around and I saw marinemarine science. And I said, Oh,
okay, I can do that. And itinvolves diving. So I went into
that area. And I started thecareer and fun fun science man.
(03:55):
I was diving in submarines. AndI worked for the government, we
ran the Alvin. I was in Japanfor three years diving the
Japanese up so I was livingunderwater and habitats. I was
living the dream. And then aboutthe spring of 1819 90 or so I
was diving in the Sea of Japanat 18,000 feet was quite a quite
(04:18):
a waist down there takes youthree hours of data that depth
and I got to the bottom and lastthing I expected to see was a
trash heap at a place where thelight of day hadn't shown for
billions of years. And I was Iwas shocked and I
I realized that this wasn'tright. And that something had to
(04:41):
be done about it. This wasbefore this was before there was
any awareness of marineconservation. Okay, this was you
got to put your mind back 30years, right? People were still
thinking dilution is thesolution and you know, don't
worry about it. Yeah. But I Iknew that wasn't the case. So I
was open then. And about a yearlater, I got asked to start a
(05:03):
marine conservation program inat the New England Aquarium in
Boston, which I did. And that'swhen the cod fisheries were
collapsing in the NorthAtlantic. It was really the
blast off point for zoos, thewake up moment. And so I worked
there conducting research, I dida PhD in dolphins, they got
(05:25):
caught up in fishing nets, Ifound a way to put acoustic
pingers on the net so they couldhear the nets and they wouldn't
get caught up and did a lot ofwork on whales and dolphins.
That was my first area ofexpertise. And then I went back
to deep sea research andinvertebrates and I just
started, you know, the peoplethat know the most about the
(05:48):
ocean are the people that spendthe most time in the ocean and
under the ocean, right? It's notthe people that study it is
people that are in it. I can'tever talk about this kind of
stuff without bringing somebodyelse into the room who's
deceased. Now his name is TeddyTucker, who was a tremendous
mentor of mine. He was aBermudian shipwreck diver. And I
(06:09):
met him when I was about 17. Youknow how sometimes important
people in your life if you wantto call them mentors, or you
want to call them guides orwhatever you want to call them,
they appear in different forms,and they they're not always
recognizable at first. And thisguy, he looked like he ran a gas
station or something. He had astrong Bermudian accent, he knew
(06:31):
more about the ocean thananybody I'd ever met. And he was
famous for finding shipwrecks.
He found the first intactSpanish galleon in the in the
1950s. So yeah, if you Googlehis name, Teddy Tucker, Teddy
Tucker, that he Tucker and yougo back, he's on the cover of
Time Magazine, Life magazine waslike the guy of the day. And he
(06:54):
took me on we got along. And weformed at age old human
relationship of mentor menteesystem, you know, whatever you
want to call it, something otherthan college, which is a fairly
recent way of learning things.
You know, colleges are only onlybeen around for a few 100 years.
(07:16):
And in all the previous historyof humanity, we learned in other
ways. And that was mostlycontact with people talking with
people apprenticing with people.
So in a way I apprenticed withhim. He also did the same thing
with a guy named Peter Benchleywho wrote jaws. And Peter and I
became Teddy's mentees if youwill. And Peter was sort of set
(07:39):
up to write novels about theocean, inspired by Teddy, Teddy
was like a Yoda. Think of Yoda.
You had that very unusual lookabout him. And, and then with
me, there was science, andocean. So we all went off our
different ways than the three ofus formed a team, we always come
(08:00):
back together. And Peter came tome one day, he made a lot of
money out of jaws. He said,Greg, I'm sick of these
documentaries. They're making medo to promote jaws and the girls
and bikinis and go into thewrite all this stuff. He said,
I've noticed what you're doing.
It's much more interesting, youknow, you're out there looking
at things, you're creatingmarine protected areas, you're
(08:22):
you're solving problems. Hesays, What can I do to help? And
I said, Well, you can do a lot,I said, you know, your name can
carry quite a bit. So we startedmaking films, we made a series
of films together, Isimultaneously kept doing
expeditions for NationalGeographic and the Discovery
Channel. And I would always tryto do a movie, a popular
magazine article and a sciencepaper on a topic. And then I
(08:45):
move on to something elsebecause I wanted to communicate,
get it out there as far as Icould, but also have at the at
the basis of a strong backboneof science, a strong backbone of
some certainty, because there'sso much propaganda and, and
speculation and people sayingthings they think but they don't
(09:05):
know around. You've got it,you've got to get something
there at the base. So I did thatfor 10 or 15 years. And then I
went into the Pacific Ocean, I'dalways wanted to work in the
Pacific ever since I was a kid.
And I made my way down there. Ilived in New Zealand for 10
years. And then somebody askedme to go on an expedition to
(09:26):
this group of islands I'd neverheard of called the Phoenix
Islands. And I said, Well, whyare we going there? And they
said, Well, they've never beendived, and no one's ever really
explored them. And they said,Okay, I'm in.
David Evans (09:38):
Cool.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (09:39):
And we it was a four day trip from
Fiji. They're they're veryisolated. And I fell in the
water there and it changed mylife. I had never seen a reef
like that before. It was a wehad been studying reefs with a
baseline of a degraded reef. Thebaseline that we thought was
healthy was not healthy. It wasa degraded reef and I found on
(10:00):
this reef system out in themiddle of the Pacific that had
never been tampered with, and itwas in pristine condition. And
we created a marine protectedarea around it called the
Phoenix Islands protected areas,the largest in the world at the
time, size of California. Andthat's when I caught the
attention of the bingos, the biginternational NGOs. And they
(10:23):
pursued me for six years, theytried to hire me. And I kept
saying no. And then I finallysaid, yes, because it seemed to
line up. And I drank the KoolAid before, I don't want to
audition. Because they, they area good, they served a very
(10:44):
important purpose in society andwaking us all up. But I started
noticing all this money cominginto these organizations of
which I was an executive vicepresident and chief scientist.
So I was I was right up at thetop. And I could see the money
coming in like, so we raised it,and I could see how it was
spent. And it was, I didn'tthink it was spent in the most
(11:07):
efficient way. The top prioritywas to keep the organization
going and pay fairly highexecutive salaries of which I
was one of them. And the peoplethat needed the most assistance
were in the developing world.
And they were not getting thefull benefit of this massive
campaigns that were beinglaunched to make awareness of
(11:29):
it. And it it just didn't makesense to me. So I, I left there,
and went on to the WorldEconomic Forum, and I was the
science advisor of the UN oceanenvoy for a little while. But I
quickly realized that they weresort of doing the same thing.
You know, just having a meeting.
(11:50):
At the end of the meeting, ifyou schedule a new meeting, that
was that was consideredsuccessful. There just wasn't
really any, you know, action,anything traction, you get you
get on. So I met this guy whohad, did you know that mining is
the worst thing we do on thisplanet?
David Evans (12:09):
I know that there's definitely some some major
issues with different miningpractices.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (12:15):
I didn't know that until Until
recently, that if you look atthe biodiversity loss to carbon
production, the indigenouscommunity displacements, the
people that died doing theactivity, it is the worst thing
we do. And we know that forcertainty, because we have 1000s
of years of experience. So thisguy came up to me with this
(12:39):
idea, I wish I was aware of thepolymetallic nodules that have
formed on the bottom of thePacific Ocean. I've got one over
there. Let's see if I can go getit.
David Evans (12:48):
Yeah, that'd be very cool.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (12:50):
Yeah, these these nodules are,
David Evans (12:55):
at this point, Greg actually went off to go and grab
one of these nodules. And youcan see in the video, this
strange nodule metallic lookingsubstance that is straight off
the bottom of the ocean floor.
I'll let Greg describe it alittle bit. But if you want to
see the full video of ourinterview, and this little
snippet, that'll be on ourpublic place network video page,
where you can see all of thevideo interviews and all of the
(13:16):
video content that we have forthis podcast. Now for season
two. They were
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (13:22):
first found in the 1800s during
something called the Challengerexpedition, which was the first
oceanographic expedition ever.
And the British had fitted a gunboat and traveled around the
world for two years and to tryto find out a little bit about
the ocean and they put pullthese things up. Can you see it?
Yeah, whoa. And they're like apearl Dave, they they sit on the
(13:45):
seafloor, and they theyaccumulate atoms of what's in
the seawater like a pearl does,very slowly. This is probably 10
million years old. Every elementon the periodic table that you
learned in high school is in theocean, it's it's in solution in
the ocean, in different forms.
(14:07):
And these nodules form and theyreflect the relative abundances
of the elements in the area ofwhich they form. And it turns
out in certain places,especially about halfway between
Mexico and why there's a veryhigh concentration of nickel,
cobalt, manganese, and copper,which are all the metals we need
(14:31):
for all these electric cars thatare coming up you right, which
which is a it's between a 600and 1,000% increase in demand
over the next 1020 years. Now,if you go to a terrestrial
solution for this, you'relooking at 1% grades of nickel
laterites. We've already takenall the high grades out pretty
(14:53):
quickly and there's zero wastein this this is 100% reusable
metal and what's not met Oh isnon toxic and perfect additive
for cement? There's no wayswears, you know, in the
traditional mining industry,it's 99% waste. And you end up
with these, you have a mountain,you take down and you use 1% of
(15:14):
the mountain and the rest of themountain, you've got to do
something like that. It's just,it's, it's just horrible. And we
we offshore these activities todeveloping countries, because,
you know, we don't want to havethem in California here. So why
not put them down in some placein Africa or Indonesia, we're
not going to see it. And there'svery little oversight. So this
(15:38):
was a solution. And you can findenough of these things and an
area less than 1% of the bottomof the sea floor to supply the
humanity for hundreds of years.
David Evans (15:48):
Until really, they're that that plentiful.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (15:51):
Yeah.
It's like cobblestones, I canshow you pictures, what they
look, wow. They're very, verydense. And we can get these into
a closed loop material. We're ina material crisis, that this guy
got a Nobel award for thechemistry a few months ago. And
he said, This is not a questionabout supply shortages here. And
there. He said, This is aquestion about lack of atoms and
(16:13):
molecules of everything. Hesays, we're running out of
everything. And we've got toreally rethink how we're going
to do this. So this techniqueallows you to project a period
of extraction, which would be20 3040 years and then a period
where you can close the loopbecause you can't destroy an
(16:36):
atom. Atoms are perfectlyrecyclable, especially battery
metals and battery metals. Andother metals are absolutely
essential for the new renewableenergy future, we must we must
embrace. Otherwise, we'redoomed, right? This to me seemed
like the most tangible, nittygritty hands on thing I could
(16:57):
get involved with to stop thisdirection we're headed in, you
know, I was in Paris as ascience advisement that climate
summit. You know, we haven't wehaven't, we haven't stopped
since then we're stillincreasing our co2 emissions.
And a guy did a paper the otherday, and he said, If we continue
to do that, it's going to be 150degrees on this planet about 200
(17:19):
years. I mean, and you lookaround you, there's these
monster tornados in Kentucky,there's no lobsters left in Cape
Cod, the Gulf Stream slowingdown. upwelling is beginning to
stop, the planet is coming anddone in terms of us things that
we liked, the it'll always behere, they'll always be life,
(17:40):
they'll always be things goingon. But in terms of the kind of
environment that we enjoy aspeople, and we have occupied
this planet, now, it's no longerEarth, like it was 300 years
ago, now it's a new earth,people or something, give it a
new name. This guy came up withmy book launch, when I published
my book solvency in the age ofthe algorithm. And he had
(18:02):
researched me, she chased medown and he said, he wanted to
pursue this industry. It'sregulated by the UN. It's been
in development for 30 years,it's got a regulatory, it's got
everything you want. It's evengot a system for sharing
resources with poor people.
(18:22):
There's an off take the top ofthe structure that goes into a
pool, that is then redistributedto try to ease away at this
north south divide, it's notgoing to solve it, but it's one
way to begin to get at it. And Iknew he was going to take help
from the environmentalcommunity. Because it says it's,
it's, it's called,
David Evans (18:42):
as you're saying, mining is a hard sell. And it it
has it has quite the reputation.
Yeah, it sounds like it's quitedifferent than an open pit. Mine
typically would be. I mean, wewere not unfamiliar to that up
here in Canada as well. But whatare the main things that the
environmental movement, I guess,is pointing to with this? And
how, how do you address it?
(19:02):
Well,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (19:03):
first thing I had to do was he asked
me to join the company and helpbecause he knew he was going to
need somebody like me to givehim cover, because I had a
reputation. And people knew thatI was a conservationist and, and
all that. So I said, I said,okay, and he said, You got to
keep in mind, this is a one waystreet for you. And I said, you
(19:24):
have to keep in mind that if Ifind someone I like I'm gonna
leave and that's not gonna.
That's not going to be very goodfor you. Yeah. And he said, if
you find something, you know,like, I'll be right behind you.
So I felt like I was with theright people. And I gave a
speech in Abu Dhabi three yearsago at the economist ocean
Summit, where it was the firsttime scientists like me, someone
who has some credibility in theenvironmental community stood up
(19:47):
and said, you know, we must dothis, you know, and all my
colleagues were all saying, no,no, no, don't do it. Can't do
it. Can't do it. They weren't Ifound any alternatives, it would
just say, Don't do that, youknow? And that's not acceptable.
You can't say no, without sayingdo this instead. Because if you
(20:08):
just keep saying no, you don'tgo anywhere, and boy, were they
mad at me. I mean, I've gotevery day that I've got every
award, they give for diving andconservation over there, I can't
even keep them on the shelf,there's so many of them. And
over the years, so, so I had thecredibility to take this
(20:28):
position. And I don't knowwhat's wrong with them. They're,
they're just, they're just,they're just blind to a
planetary perspective, you'vegot to have a planetary
perspective, you can't look atsquare meter of seafloor and
say, if you pick this nodule up,you're going to kill these three
worms, therefore don't do it.
You know, that's, that's justnot the way it works. Everything
(20:53):
we do has an impact. So we're ata point now where we need to
find out what what are the leastimpacts for the way forward and
take those. And this to meclearly, is that we're still
getting held. We had Greenpeaceout 1000 miles offshore, this
site, by the ways ininternational waters 1000 miles
offshore, and Greenpeace was outthere spray painting or boat or
(21:15):
research boat, this wasn't evena commercial, really, we're out
there doing research trying todo the environmental impact
assessment about whether or notthis can be done. We still
haven't decided whether we'regoing to do it. We're doing the
research to and I used to workwith Greenpeace, I use the
Rainbow Warrior early in mycareer. David, one of the
(21:36):
founders, I dated the gal thatnamed the Rainbow Warrior. I
mean, I know how I know theirculture. And I said to him, I
said, God, don't you guys havesomething better to do? You're
out here trying to stopsomething that's good. Go take
your boat and run it back andforth in front of the
Mississippi River and drawpeople's attention to reactive
(21:56):
nitrogen and phosphorus ispouring out of that every day,
and killing the ocean. And Igave him about five or six other
things that are unattended.
Instead, they're off trying tostop something unneeded should
be done. Because it's flashy.
And it gives, right. Anyway,it's so I spent the last couple
of years I didn't think I'd haveto do it. But I've been back
(22:17):
into publishing papers, sciencepapers about this, trying to
explain it in science terms. AndI just hope that we get over
this knot, and we can disruptthe mining industry in this
direction, because if we do Ithink back of the envelope
calculation, it's about 30 to40% of what needs to be done on
this planet. Now, as soon aspossible if we have any slim
(22:39):
chance of getting out of thismess we're in. And this is a
substantial solution. And it'sbeing held up by the
environmental community.
David Evans (22:47):
Do you think it's being held up primarily because
it's a new industry, and it's soflashy, or because people hear
mining and they, they justassumed that we don't know
enough about the oceans yet tobe able to do this. With knowing
the impacts.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (23:05):
I mean, backing up a little bit,
they do have cause to haveconcern, because in the past,
industry has lied to us. They'vesaid, Hey, don't worry about
we'll take care of it, and theydidn't. But what these folks
don't realize is that since thattime, there's some sociological
psychological science around thefact that our frameworks and our
(23:27):
minds, the way we look at theworld is about 30 years behind
science and reality. Right?
They're looking at this throughlike 1970s 1980s thinking. And
since then we've got the Law ofthe Sea, we got the Convention
on Biological Diversity, we'vegot a whole bunch of very strong
treaties that have come intoplace. There's science that
says, This is not as bad as wethink. And they're not taking
(23:52):
that into account. They'reimagining it's 1970. And this
company is just rising up out ofnowhere going to destroy the
world. You know, right. That'skind of their perspective. But I
think we're at a turning point,and we will be able to do this
and then I can move on. I mean,this isn't what I wanted to do
for the rest of my life. I didthis really because I wanted to
(24:13):
give this industry a chance toget going exactly. I realized if
I sort of laid my body acrossit, you know that it might have
it might have a chance I did wasable to recruit colleagues to
join me they're not as highprofile as I am. But people like
you know, Jared Diamond is I'veheard the name yet. Yeah, germs
(24:34):
and steel. He's a brilliantanthropologist, good friend of
mine. He's outraged at whatthese groups are doing and he's
gonna write an essay soon andand there's a bunch of others
that feel the same way. It isthe right path. The arguments
are just right. I had aninteresting experience. Last
week I had a phone call from astudent I get a lot of phone
(24:55):
calls from students who wantadvice about their careers. I
was taking If I can, because Ifigure that's part of my, my job
as a, as a, as a senior memberof this discipline. So she said
to me, Dr. Stone, the reason Icall is I want to find out how
you got from where you were towhere you are now. And I said,
Okay, so I told her the story.
(25:18):
And she said, Well, I agree withyou, you know, she said, I think
these are the solution. And Idon't understand why the
environmental community soworked up about it. And I said,
Well, there you have it. I said,By the way, where are you from?
And she said, I'm from Scripps.
And I said, Scripps, and who'syour advisor? She told me and
her advisors, one of the majorcritics of this. And she said,
(25:41):
she said, I feel like I'm in amadhouse down here. You know,
these people? Are, they'remaking decisions based on
getting money,
David Evans (25:52):
based on Yeah, based on money and fear. And
yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (25:56):
yeah, yeah, they're just, they're just
not thinking clearly, I
David Evans (26:00):
guess to give the listeners a bit of a an idea or
a picture of how this actuallyworks. So these nodules are
sitting on the bottom, it's notlike you're going to the bottom
and mining a big pit or a holedown there something so I assume
it's robotics, or could you justpaint a picture of what this
actually looks like,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (26:18):
I can do better than that, I can
show you a very short film thatshows the whole thing and 60s
Perfect. We go down with athere's a ship on the surface.
And then there's a vehicle onthe bottom that we haven't come
up with the word, it's notreally mining, it's like
hoovering, or vacuuming orsomething like that. We're not
destroying, we're not cracking,we're not grinding or anything,
(26:39):
we're just picking rocks up, andthen they get pulled up to the
surface, and then they get takento land. And then they get
processed, and we've got a zerocarbon budget, and we've got
zero wastes, you could put thisnext to a nursery school, it
wouldn't matter. The processingof these nodules is so but it's
a very simple process. And it isworth seeing.
David Evans (27:03):
At this point, we watched the metals company video
on their actual productionsystem, and how they actually
are mining or hoovering up thesenodules from the ocean floor, to
watch it yourself,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (27:16):
go to the metals company, and it's
the head video, it should comeup first, and you just hit play,
that tells the whole story therein like 90 seconds,
David Evans (27:26):
I would definitely say to go check out this video,
it really illustrates what thiswhole mining process would look
like. And even gets an idea ofall of these nodules that are
just sitting on the ocean floorthat we can use. So go check it
out of the metals companywebsite, there'll be a link in
the show notes as well.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (27:43):
But that's pretty much what it looks
like down there. You can see outreally that many? Yeah, it's
considered a fairly deposit areaof the seafloor. There's not a
lot of big animals down there.
Although the critics claim thatthere's all these important
microbes, we've had theopportunity to work with the
engineers, as they're designingit and optimizing it for what we
(28:04):
want
David Evans (28:07):
is very, very interesting. What is the energy
source to power all of this? Isit primarily wind, renewable,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (28:15):
we had originally thought that we
had to have it near a hydro damor a nuclear plant or something
like that. But then we realizedthat as long as you're able to
pump renewable energy into thegrid somewhere else, right, to
account for what we use forokay, that freed up our location
David Evans (28:32):
search. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty
Dr. Greg Stone, The Met (28:35):
simple.
And it makes sense. And theother thing is the timeframe,
you know, all these electriccars that are coming out are
coming out like tomorrow, and aterrestrial mind takes 10 to 15
years from conception toproduction. So we're gonna miss
it. We could produce thesemetals next year.
David Evans (28:51):
Wow. That's how quickly you could scale up. Yep.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (28:55):
Yep.
So this is a solution, the realnitty gritty solution. We're not
just sitting and talking tomeetings and speculating and
stuff like that. What's thesolution?
David Evans (29:05):
Yeah, I got the idea that you're you're a man of
action and not a man to just sitaround and then not move
forward?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (29:12):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I like to
sleep well at night.
David Evans (29:19):
So I'm curious nodules, are they mostly the
size the one that you have inyour hand? Or, or do they get
quite large, this
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (29:26):
is a bit of a larger one. Actually,
this size we will leave behindby design, because this is a
place that animals canrecolonize on there were some
obligate animals that neednodules to live on. So we're at
15%, behind the ones that wewant them we're like the size.
David Evans (29:43):
In the recording, you can see that Greg den holds
up a nodule that is just alittle bit smaller than a ping
pong ball. So that's the sizethat they're hoping to collect.
Oh,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (29:52):
we are in the age of metals. David,
the age of oil is passed. Andnow we're in the age of metals
because with metals arrayInteresting to put in the right
systems, we can have a renewableenergy system. That's a closed
loop in terms of material with,you know, no fossil fuels and
all that. So metals is what it'sall about.
David Evans (30:13):
Yeah. And I mean, it's definitely something that
I've heard more and more aboutknowing where the metals that
power or cellphone come from, orwhat goes into your electric
vehicle and the talk aboutbatteries. In my mind, it kind
of comes down to a number ofyears ago, when, what was the
movie that blood diamond andthings like that, and, and how
(30:36):
they're similar? Very similar.
Exactly, exactly. But peoplefantasize about diamonds and not
necessarily about manganese. Andin copper,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (30:44):
this is just to the north south
divide I was talking aboutearlier, right? The people that
are against this are sitting inoffices, much like you and I
are, you know, we have metal allaround us, we have a metal car
outside. Metal is not just aboutbatteries, inspect cars, it's
about bridges, it's aboutbuildings. And fully half the
(31:05):
world is not developed yet,right. And we have people
sitting in these nice offices atStanford, and Scripps, and
they're very comfortable intheir lives. And they say, Oh,
why change anything, don't dothat. That sounds bad like that.
They don't think about theglobal equity that we must
change, sort of to combat thator deal with that. I've come to
(31:29):
the realization that it's abouteducation. And it's about
pulling people from developingcountries, bringing them up here
to North America or Europe,putting them through school at
very importantly, at theundergraduate level, not the
graduate level, but theundergraduate level. So they can
can understand how we think andhow we look at money. And it
(31:50):
gets very different the way theywhat they do. And I think that
will help equip them to engagein and hopefully sort this out.
Because until we take care ofthe fellow humans on this
planet, things will not work.
Did you know there are 2 billionpeople on the planet that cannot
afford a bicycle. Wow. Yeah. Andif they had a bicycle, that
would change their lives, theycould get their meager products
(32:13):
to market faster, and maybe $5extra a month. And if they made
$5 extra month, they can save upfor school supplies for their
kid, and they can take their kidto school on a bicycle. It's
transformative. There's a famousexplanation of what the washing
machine did for women. Itcompletely liberalized them. And
we just we ignore it, becauseit's so it's so convenient to
(32:36):
ignore what's happened to mostof the humanity or half of
humanity. Because those of usthat are lucky enough to be on
this side of the curve, youknow, why worry. And I was
flying from I took a helicopterride from San Diego to LAX a
couple months ago. And that wasriding right along the
(32:57):
coastline. I was just looking atall the houses. And it was
obscene the way it was, therewas houses built, you know, 1234
up the hillside, and each househad a swimming pool, each house
had an SUV, this each outside ofthat. And there's no way this
planet can supply that kind oflifestyle for everybody. But
(33:19):
that is what people look at andsay that's what we want. So I'm
beginning to think that we needto re envision cities probably
along the coastline, big bigapartment complexes that are
safe, that are pleasant andconcentrate people in those
places, and then leave openareas around them where we can
(33:42):
have crops growing, we can havesome wildlife experiences and
and begin to engineer thisplanet for 10 billion people.
Because right now, we're notdoing that we're just
haphazardly going forward at thewhim of people's needs, people's
desires. And those of us in thedeveloped world are running the
(34:02):
show. So I've been and I don'tknow what caused the north south
divide. I wish I did. I'vethought about it a lot. I wrote
about it in my book, my lastbook a little bit. No, no one
knows. Some people say it's aCatholic church. Some people say
Jared Diamond argues guns, germsand steel. It had to do with
those that have the steel andthe germs and the guns first.
(34:23):
But there was a time in historywhere a divide was created. And
we had these two worlds. Thereason it's called the north
south divide is the primeminister of Germany in 1980s,
was looking at a globe in hisoffice and he was noticing that
most of the countries south ofthe equator were undeveloped,
(34:45):
and most of the countries northof the equator were developed.
And he called it the Brandtline. His name was Brandt. And
that didn't last long. It turnedover to the north south divide,
but it's essentially a very,very steep inequity between
societies. And I don't know whatto do about that, then the
climate crisis is acceleratingmuch faster than we thought.
(35:09):
Right. And I can attest to thatfirsthand. I've been out looking
myself diving and I went to theGalapagos Islands a few months
ago for National Geographic isone of their guests scientists
on one of their Lindblad trips,and, and I dive there a lot. And
I was I was kind of on vacation,really. But I switched on my my
science brain. And I startedlooking around and I said,
(35:32):
Something's not right. TheGalapagos is where we have the
most upwelling anywhere in theworld. That's what drives the
ocean is bringing this nutrientcold, deep sea to, and I saw
skinny seals, you don't seeskinny seals and like Guapa
silence, you know, you can seethe bones on their back, you
know, there's, you see thevertebra sticking out. In the
(35:53):
fish biomass was way low, andlobsters are gone from Cape Cod
now, and the Gulf Stream isslowing down and the whole
thermo hay line circulationsystem is beginning to halt. Or
I do think that we're on theverge of collapse, a climate
collapse. And I think that mightfollow up civilization collapse
(36:14):
in the next couple of 100 years,unless we have some
technological advances, which wecould some extraordinary things
that we could do pumping gasesup into the upper atmosphere,
for example, that might cool theplanet down, there are things
that we could do that I hope wecan do them. But the moment the
(36:34):
best we can do is just keepgoing to these treaty meetings
and pushing solutions like thisand doing everything that we
can. And we should be talkingabout it every day, from morning
till night. You know, my parentswere both in World War Two. And
they told me that during WorldWar Two was an existential
threat to the world. And as aresult, everybody was focused on
(36:57):
it, hyper focused on it. Andthat's all we talked about for
four years was the war. And wewant it and put that to bed.
Well, this, this, this thread isabout 1000 times worse. And
we're not talking about it. Youknow, it's something that we
should talk about. And, and Ihave a belief that if we talk
(37:17):
about it enough, it'll happen.
So that's why I like podcastslike yours, in anything that
will raise people's awareness ofthis stuff.
David Evans (37:30):
Yeah, that's exactly what I love being able
to speak with people such asyourself, who are clearly very
knowledgeable about thesethings. And I get to learn and
share this with others as well.
What would be the number onething that you would like
listeners to this podcast totake away or to take into their
own life moving forward?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (37:50):
Yeah, that's a tough one. I get that
question asked a lot. When Igive talks and stuff, everybody
always says at the end of thetalk, they raise their hand,
they say, Well, what can I do?
You know, I recycled plastic andI have electric car. And is that
enough? And I always say, No,it's nowhere near enough. You've
got to do a lot more. And youcan't do it all either. I said,
think about the Earth as a sickrelative. And it's dying. It's
(38:14):
having a real hard time. And thethings that you can do are like
bringing in a cup of hot tea tothe to your sick relative by
these laudable minoradjustments. I said, you need to
hire a doctor who knows how tofix this. The Stockholm center
for resilience is one that Ilike a lot. And there's any
(38:35):
number of groups around look atthem carefully, though, make
sure they're not phonies. Intheir greenwashing. I started
something called pole to poleconservation. Right? Yes, we
need to talk about that stuff.
And what I did is a I rethoughtthe whole paradigm of how things
are set up. And I realized thatwe needed to devolve from large
(38:56):
fingers to small, nimble,integrated entities within
society that ultimately wouldseamlessly become a big part of
society. This should be notsomething special, it should be
just who we are. It should bebuilt into the fabric of how we
operate. And I'm writing anessay on that right now that's
(39:16):
going to be part of our annualreport. So finding the right
organizations to support you cannever go wrong by influencing
politicians. If you can, theywill listen to you. And if
there's a piece of public policythat will help write a letter
and tell the guy to support it,but in terms of your own
personal life, focus on the bigthings that are in your life,
(39:39):
heating your house, driving yourcar, the amount of travel you do
with carbon released inairplanes, don't focus on the
small stuff, you know, recyclingplastic bags, it's not going to
save the world. It makes peoplefeel good, but it's not going to
save the world. That's my adviceis to be scared. I'm terrified.
Be scared. but optimistic andkeep learning, keep listening,
(40:02):
keep listening to your podcastand let that lead to another
podcast. And there's got to be atipping point that when we talk
about it, and enough, we willall come to the same awareness.
And that will then I think,transform how we do things.
Because right now we're notthere. And then there's so many
rich people in the world, somany Uber wealthy people in the
world that deny climate change,they deny all this stuff.
(40:26):
Because if they didn't deny it,how can they live with
themselves with all that money?
You know, right? If I had money,a lot of money, I don't, I would
pump it into the developingworld in a constructive way. You
can't just give them money, alot of waste, you got to channel
it through systems. Right nowI'm working on COVID Relief Fund
for some developing countries inSouth Pacific. And we're sending
(40:49):
it through the Ministry ofHealth, making sure people, it's
used properly, we have to sendresources to these countries,
because they don't have enoughto have a look some day at the
mean life expectancy ofcountries around the world.
That's a real eye opener, when Ifirst started working in
Carabosse, this country thatI've done quite a bit of work.
(41:10):
And the mean life expectancy was46. I think, wow, oh, gosh, I
started noticing it. I wouldcome back after a trip. And I'd
say, Hey, where's Johnny, youknow, and they go, Oh, John, Oh,
Johnny died. And then they go onto the next thing. Wait a
minute, what did you say Johnnydied? And they say, yeah, what
(41:31):
happened to him? And they said,Oh, Johnny, I don't know, what
was it with Johnny? Maybe it wasa heart attack or diabetes? I
can't remember. They're soaccepting of it and used to it,
you know, right. That it's,it's, it's, it's, it's sad. But
it's an indicator, our expectedlife expectancy keeps going up.
(41:52):
I think the developed world isnow 76 or 80, something like
that. Care abouts gone up tothey're up to 55. Now, but
that's a real telltale sign ofconditions, because the reason
it slow is they don't getregular health checks. They
don't have hospitals that areadequate. And that's a
humanitarian problem. I don'tknow why the world ended up the
(42:14):
way it did. It should have Whydidn't Why didn't and then an
end up with equal developmentall around, you know, right.
It's just like, why did we endup with this big divide?
David Evans (42:28):
Absolutely perplexing, because it doesn't
seem to be rooted in anythingobvious at all?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (42:34):
Well, yeah, I wrote about it a little
bit. In my book, I argued thatcountries with with maritime
capability early got anadvantage. And then Vantage has
not been reset that could bewrong. Other people have argued
the Catholic Church has been abig inhibitor of growth in
especially South America.
There's a lot of theories aboutit. But it makes no sense that
(42:54):
the United States is the way itis. And then you go one foot
over a border, and you're in acompletely different universe,
you know, Canada and America,we've sort of, we're sort of the
same thing. You know, we're sameculture, same economic system. I
don't know. There's a gal that Imet you might want to try to
get, I can introduce you to her.
(43:17):
Her name is Aurora, and she wasa mid level auditor at the UN 35
years old. And she noticed thatthe UN had this enormous foreign
aid budget that was mostly beingspent for internal un offices
and executive salaries andstuff. So she ran for Secretary
(43:37):
General, it turns out, you canrun for Secretary General,
there's nothing to stop you fromdoing it. Well, no one had ever
done that before, though,because it's sort of run like
the old Soviet Union. You haveone person who's the Secretary
General. And then he figures outwho the next Secretary General
is going to be. And she tried todisrupt that she got on the
(43:58):
ballot, and New York Times wroteher up New Yorker wrote her up,
and they decided to cancel theelections that year. But her
agenda was simple. And I likedit. She said to me, Greg, the
agenda should be everybody inthe world has access to
education, and everybody in theworld has access to the
internet. And with those twothings, that has a chance of
(44:20):
balancing things out, becauseyou can do business now on the
internet, you know, if you're ina remote area, and this this
meta, what's it called the meta
David Evans (44:29):
know something?
Yeah, the new Facebook thing,right?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (44:32):
I don't know if it's Facebook, but
it's a world that you live in,and you can conduct business in
it and do things, right. That'sa business you could start on an
atoll out in the middle ofnowhere, you know? So that's a
good agenda, education andinternet for everybody. It's
simple. You can get you can getyour arms around it. So there's
(44:52):
a lot of things out there andI'm glad that you're concerned.
You're aware you're a smart guy.
David Evans (44:59):
Just trying Just trying to soak up as much as I
can from credible individualssuch as yourself.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (45:04):
What motivated you? Did you? Were
your parents very moral peopleor
David Evans (45:11):
did Yeah, I think my parents were very moral
people and very much supportedme to follow where my
curiosities led, and where mypassions lead. I've been a very,
very fortunate to have had thepast experiences that I've had
and been able to work in anindustry to be involved with
projects where I get to askquestions and be involved in the
(45:34):
decision making process, butalso get to learn more about our
natural environment, and be ableto ask questions that we as a
population want to know abouthow our environment is doing.
I've been fortunate enough tohave that support to be able to
do this. And I've been blownaway with the reception to
providing a podcast ID I have tosay what it was, I was very
(45:57):
nervous at the beginning. And Istill get nervous as well and
just cold call emailing people,and then speaking with him about
topics that I am not veryfamiliar with myself. But I
think it's by pushing yourselfand expanding and going into
places where you're notnecessarily comfortable in
asking questions where you don'tknow the answers and are open to
(46:17):
learning. That's where you canshow that it's okay to ask
questions, and it's okay to notknow and to learn. And by
sharing that experience withothers, I think it's a more
genuine experience for alistener and, and for people who
want to learn as well. It's moreopen and inviting, and to show
that it's okay not to know andit's okay to learn.
Unknown (46:37):
Is your business model working.
David Evans (46:41):
My business model with the podcast? Yeah, I mean,
I'm not from the revenue pointof view, my whole goal was not
to turn this into a business, ifit eventually did have support,
then that would be phenomenal.
But for me, this is about melearning and about me being able
to start sharing what I'mlearning and being able to reach
an audience that does notnecessarily know about these
(47:02):
different issues and to helpspread the word. And I think to
a certain degree, I see this asthe next step within my role
within science. As someone whohas a basic foundation in some
concepts within science, it canbe quite daunting to those who
don't have that background toeven know where to begin with
asking questions. And I think weshould all be trying to expand
(47:25):
the world of everyone else, andbe able to have these
discussions and to spread thisknowledge around. And for me,
it's just been a pleasure, justlearning. And I've been having
so much fun learning thebackside of the podcast and the
organization of it and gettingto speak with individuals, such
as yourself, it affords me thatopportunity, which is a
wonderful for myself, and justeven hearing from some of the
(47:46):
listeners, and I'm sure you alsohave a podcast, which I was
going to ask you about as well.
But for me, at least hearingback from some of the listeners
who I haven't met, or peoplethat I I've known from many
years ago that have been goingthrough hard times and hearing
how much that they've gainedfrom the podcast. And with me
(48:07):
not even being aware thatthey're listening, and how how
much they've they've been takingfrom it, it's it's been a very,
very enriching experience. AndI'm excited to see where it
continues to grow to
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (48:20):
what kind of what kind of audience
you have.
David Evans (48:23):
Primarily it's the demographic is typically between
20 and 40. And typically, it'sindividuals that most do have a
bit of a scientific background.
But my idea is to try to targetthose who don't have a
scientific background, or don'thave post secondary education,
and how to distill theseconcepts down to bite sized
(48:44):
understandings. And then, ifpeople are interested in then
they can listen to the entireconversations with the experts
as well to expand theirknowledge on that and see where
it goes from there.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Meta (48:55):
Great.
Well, I like you and keep doingwhat you're doing. You can count
on me for future interactions.
Should you need it.
David Evans (49:03):
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah. Do you have
anywhere where you would likelisteners to learn more about
the metals company? Or do yourpodcasts? Would you like to put
in a little promotion there forany event?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (49:15):
Oh, thank you. I'd be happy to tell
people about this foundationthat I've co founded called pole
to pole conservation. Great.
David Evans (49:23):
Yes,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (49:24):
it's a different kind of thing. It's
small. We don't have money, youknow, pay executive salaries,
most of the leadershipvolunteers. We do pay people. In
other words, our overhead isvery low. The money that you put
in here goes to the problem. Andwe're sending kids to college,
which I think is one of the mostsignificant things you can do.
(49:47):
We're also working on naturallyheat resistant corals, which I
think could be the future ofcoral reefs in the world. And
then we're engaging inopportunities that come along
with the sea is significant.
It's a new way of doing businessin the NGO world. It's not the
bingo, we're nimble, we'resmall, we're smart,
David Evans (50:06):
we're results driven,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (50:09):
we will make the most out of
contributions that people make,you can be rest assured of that
I think our overhead is probablygoing to be around less than 5%.
And that's just paying likeaccountants and stuff like that.
That's something I'd like topass on. I'd like to pass on for
people to be open minded,they're going to hear a lot of
propaganda, but deep sea mining,and it is propaganda, and have
(50:34):
them dig in and read and learnthemselves and make a decision.
And don't just listen to whatpeople are telling, because
there are people, I don't knowwhy they do it. But they are
protecting their careers ortheir previous statements or
whatever. They're not thinkingglobally, they're not thinking
about us, they're not thinkingabout you, they're thinking
about themselves. They don'thave the awareness where they
(50:57):
should be. Those are the mainthings is please learn. And this
is one very timely issue whichwe could use your help on, and
that your helped me Don't signmoratoriums, they've set up a
moratorium regime, which isdesigned to kill the industry,
they will tell you that, butthat's what it's designed to do.
They say, oh, you should wait 10years and then learn more about
(51:21):
the ocean and then do this. Andwell, anybody in their right
mind knows that in 10 years,there's not going to be any
investors. And the world willhave gone on to another
solution, which is like diggingup half of Indonesia. And
they're not they're not honestabout that. I'm very
disappointed in their theirethics. That's what I'd like the
listeners to be aware of, andhave them think a lot about
(51:44):
people in the world that weshare on this little teeny
planet. If you look at thosepictures from outerspace man
that that atmosphere is razorthin, and we have completely
polluted it. And we've got tostop. It's out of control. So
the it's optimistic, but it'surgent. People don't often don't
know what to do, though, I knowthat. So if they don't know what
(52:06):
to do, if they have resources,find a group that's good, and
give them some money, so thatthey can operate, if they can
actually take actions in theirlives, do that. But do something
everybody needs to do somethingdoesn't have to be climate,
everybody should follow theirpassion. If hunger is what it is
(52:29):
do hunger, it's women's rightsto women's rights, whatever it
is, do something every day, andthe world will change. Don't be
passive.
David Evans (52:41):
I couldn't have said it better myself. That is
quite the statement to leave on.
Greg, this has been an amazingconversation. Thank you so much
for speaking with me that I'velearned so much. And this has
been such an enrichingconversation. Yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (52:55):
I've enjoyed it today. But I really
have.
David Evans (53:03):
Thank you so much for listening to today's deep
dive episode with Dr. GregStone, where we talked all about
exploring the ocean, finding outwhat's deep down there, how to
solve the north south divide,and all about polymetallic
nodules and how we can use themfor electric vehicle batteries.
Thank you so much to Dr. GregStone for speaking with us for
(53:24):
the podcast. It was a fantasticconversation. I'm so excited to
see what happens with the metalscompany. And when we can start
actually putting thesepolymetallic nodules into
electric vehicle batteries andinto vehicles. You can learn
more about the metals companyand Dr. Greg stone@metals.co.
They've got some great videocontent where you can really
(53:46):
visualize what we've beentalking about, of these
polymetallic nodules in thebottom of the ocean and
hoovering them up to be able tobring them to the surface and
then take them into vehicles andmake a closed loop system. Take
a look. It'll make a lot moresense there. Dr. Greg Stone also
has a podcast. So if you likethis, check his out. It's called
The C has many voices and can befound on Google, Apple, podcast,
(54:11):
Spotify, you name it, it'severywhere. Be sure to check it
out. I'm the host and producerDavid Evans. And I just like to
thank the rest of the team,specifically Paul Polman, Lee
Burton, and the rest of theaquatic biosphere board. Thanks
for all of your help. And tolearn more about the aquatic
biosphere project and what we'redoing right here in Alberta
telling the story of water, youcan check us out at aquatic
(54:33):
biosphere.ca. And we also havelaunched our new media company,
ABN aquatic biosphere network,which you can find that the
public place dot online andsearch for the aquatic biosphere
network channel where we willactually be posting all of the
video episodes that we're goingto be creating this year. So
(54:53):
tune in. They will be out forthe next little while but very
excited to start sharing videocontent as well of our interview
Make sure you're subscribedbecause the next topic that
we're diving into is medicinefrom the sea, the ocean as our
future pharmacy, what we canlearn from the ocean creatures
and how we can use them formodern medicine. You will want
(55:16):
to miss it. If you have anyquestions or comments about the
show, we'd love to hear them.
Email us at conservation ataquatic biosphere.org. Please
don't forget to like, share andsubscribe. Leave us a review. It
really helps us out. Thanks andit's been a splash
Welcome to today's deep dive episode. I'm so
excited to share thisconversation I had with Dr. Greg
Stone. He's the chief oceanscientists for the metals
company. And the metals company,as you'll soon learn is what
might be the future of electricvehicle batteries around the
world. Now, Greg Stone is morethan just a metals guy. He is a
(00:28):
decorated Marine scientist withover 10,000 dives to his name,
and he's dope all around theworld. He's gone down up to
18,000 feet below the surfacehas lifted underwater habitats
proficient with underwaterrobotics. You name it, he's done
it. He's an author, a NationalGeographic Explorer, he was a
science advisor for oceans forthe World Economic Forum. He's
(00:51):
created marine protected areas.
He's done so many differentthings. So I'm so excited for
him to speak for himself andtell you more about what he's
done. So sit back, relax, andget ready to learn a little bit
more about the future ofunderwater metals, and about
ocean discovery. That's funny.
(01:22):
nippy, for me to know, in zoo,to marry a cheap, child away.
(01:42):
Why natural? Water are we doing?
And how can we do better? Yourone stop shop for everything
water related from discussingwater, its use and the organisms
that depend on it. For all theglobal issues that you really
never knew all had to do withwater. I'm your host, David
(02:06):
Evans from the aquatic biosphereproject. And I just want to ask
you something. What are wedoing? And how can we do better?
So welcome to another deep diveepisode of the water. We doing
(02:29):
Podcast. I'm so excited to bespeaking with Dr. Greg Stone. So
Greg, do you mind just givingyourself a quick introduction
telling us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do. And I
know, seeing a quickintroduction might be a lot
because you seem to do quite abroad range of things so
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (02:51):
I can narrow it down. Yeah, I've
been fascinated by the oceansince I was a child. And it came
from watching TV, JacquesCousteau and Lloyd Bridges and
things like that. But I didn'thave a family. It wasn't
interested in it. I just sort offound my way to it. And I
decided quite early on I wantedto spend my time underwater. So
(03:11):
diving was driving me it was itwas it was not science. It was
not conservation. It was notanything else. It was diving, I
just loved diving, was going tobe a commercial diver actually
went down that road and lookedinto it. And then some guy in
the industry pulled me aside andhe said, Hey, kid, this is not
(03:33):
for you. This is basicallyunderwater construction work at
the cube got a little more inyou than this. I said, Oh, I
said, What else can I do? And hesaid, Well look around. And I
looked around and I saw marinemarine science. And I said, Oh,
okay, I can do that. And itinvolves diving. So I went into
that area. And I started thecareer and fun fun science man.
(03:55):
I was diving in submarines. AndI worked for the government, we
ran the Alvin. I was in Japanfor three years diving the
Japanese up so I was livingunderwater and habitats. I was
living the dream. And then aboutthe spring of 1819 90 or so I
was diving in the Sea of Japanat 18,000 feet was quite a quite
(04:18):
a waist down there takes youthree hours of data that depth
and I got to the bottom and lastthing I expected to see was a
trash heap at a place where thelight of day hadn't shown for
billions of years. And I was Iwas shocked and I
I realized that this wasn'tright. And that something had to
(04:41):
be done about it. This wasbefore this was before there was
any awareness of marineconservation. Okay, this was you
got to put your mind back 30years, right? People were still
thinking dilution is thesolution and you know, don't
worry about it. Yeah. But I Iknew that wasn't the case. So I
was open then. And about a yearlater, I got asked to start a
(05:03):
marine conservation program inat the New England Aquarium in
Boston, which I did. And that'swhen the cod fisheries were
collapsing in the NorthAtlantic. It was really the
blast off point for zoos, thewake up moment. And so I worked
there conducting research, I dida PhD in dolphins, they got
(05:25):
caught up in fishing nets, Ifound a way to put acoustic
pingers on the net so they couldhear the nets and they wouldn't
get caught up and did a lot ofwork on whales and dolphins.
That was my first area ofexpertise. And then I went back
to deep sea research andinvertebrates and I just
started, you know, the peoplethat know the most about the
(05:48):
ocean are the people that spendthe most time in the ocean and
under the ocean, right? It's notthe people that study it is
people that are in it. I can'tever talk about this kind of
stuff without bringing somebodyelse into the room who's
deceased. Now his name is TeddyTucker, who was a tremendous
mentor of mine. He was aBermudian shipwreck diver. And I
(06:09):
met him when I was about 17. Youknow how sometimes important
people in your life if you wantto call them mentors, or you
want to call them guides orwhatever you want to call them,
they appear in different forms,and they they're not always
recognizable at first. And thisguy, he looked like he ran a gas
station or something. He had astrong Bermudian accent, he knew
(06:31):
more about the ocean thananybody I'd ever met. And he was
famous for finding shipwrecks.
He found the first intactSpanish galleon in the in the
1950s. So yeah, if you Googlehis name, Teddy Tucker, Teddy
Tucker, that he Tucker and yougo back, he's on the cover of
Time Magazine, Life magazine waslike the guy of the day. And he
(06:54):
took me on we got along. And weformed at age old human
relationship of mentor menteesystem, you know, whatever you
want to call it, something otherthan college, which is a fairly
recent way of learning things.
You know, colleges are only onlybeen around for a few 100 years.
(07:16):
And in all the previous historyof humanity, we learned in other
ways. And that was mostlycontact with people talking with
people apprenticing with people.
So in a way I apprenticed withhim. He also did the same thing
with a guy named Peter Benchleywho wrote jaws. And Peter and I
became Teddy's mentees if youwill. And Peter was sort of set
(07:39):
up to write novels about theocean, inspired by Teddy, Teddy
was like a Yoda. Think of Yoda.
You had that very unusual lookabout him. And, and then with
me, there was science, andocean. So we all went off our
different ways than the three ofus formed a team, we always come
(08:00):
back together. And Peter came tome one day, he made a lot of
money out of jaws. He said,Greg, I'm sick of these
documentaries. They're making medo to promote jaws and the girls
and bikinis and go into thewrite all this stuff. He said,
I've noticed what you're doing.
It's much more interesting, youknow, you're out there looking
at things, you're creatingmarine protected areas, you're
(08:22):
you're solving problems. Hesays, What can I do to help? And
I said, Well, you can do a lot,I said, you know, your name can
carry quite a bit. So we startedmaking films, we made a series
of films together, Isimultaneously kept doing
expeditions for NationalGeographic and the Discovery
Channel. And I would always tryto do a movie, a popular
magazine article and a sciencepaper on a topic. And then I
(08:45):
move on to something elsebecause I wanted to communicate,
get it out there as far as Icould, but also have at the at
the basis of a strong backboneof science, a strong backbone of
some certainty, because there'sso much propaganda and, and
speculation and people sayingthings they think but they don't
(09:05):
know around. You've got it,you've got to get something
there at the base. So I did thatfor 10 or 15 years. And then I
went into the Pacific Ocean, I'dalways wanted to work in the
Pacific ever since I was a kid.
And I made my way down there. Ilived in New Zealand for 10
years. And then somebody askedme to go on an expedition to
(09:26):
this group of islands I'd neverheard of called the Phoenix
Islands. And I said, Well, whyare we going there? And they
said, Well, they've never beendived, and no one's ever really
explored them. And they said,Okay, I'm in.
David Evans (09:38):
Cool.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (09:39):
And we it was a four day trip from
Fiji. They're they're veryisolated. And I fell in the
water there and it changed mylife. I had never seen a reef
like that before. It was a wehad been studying reefs with a
baseline of a degraded reef. Thebaseline that we thought was
healthy was not healthy. It wasa degraded reef and I found on
(10:00):
this reef system out in themiddle of the Pacific that had
never been tampered with, and itwas in pristine condition. And
we created a marine protectedarea around it called the
Phoenix Islands protected areas,the largest in the world at the
time, size of California. Andthat's when I caught the
attention of the bingos, the biginternational NGOs. And they
(10:23):
pursued me for six years, theytried to hire me. And I kept
saying no. And then I finallysaid, yes, because it seemed to
line up. And I drank the KoolAid before, I don't want to
audition. Because they, they area good, they served a very
(10:44):
important purpose in society andwaking us all up. But I started
noticing all this money cominginto these organizations of
which I was an executive vicepresident and chief scientist.
So I was I was right up at thetop. And I could see the money
coming in like, so we raised it,and I could see how it was
spent. And it was, I didn'tthink it was spent in the most
(11:07):
efficient way. The top prioritywas to keep the organization
going and pay fairly highexecutive salaries of which I
was one of them. And the peoplethat needed the most assistance
were in the developing world.
And they were not getting thefull benefit of this massive
campaigns that were beinglaunched to make awareness of
(11:29):
it. And it it just didn't makesense to me. So I, I left there,
and went on to the WorldEconomic Forum, and I was the
science advisor of the UN oceanenvoy for a little while. But I
quickly realized that they weresort of doing the same thing.
You know, just having a meeting.
(11:50):
At the end of the meeting, ifyou schedule a new meeting, that
was that was consideredsuccessful. There just wasn't
really any, you know, action,anything traction, you get you
get on. So I met this guy whohad, did you know that mining is
the worst thing we do on thisplanet?
David Evans (12:09):
I know that there's definitely some some major
issues with different miningpractices.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (12:15):
I didn't know that until Until
recently, that if you look atthe biodiversity loss to carbon
production, the indigenouscommunity displacements, the
people that died doing theactivity, it is the worst thing
we do. And we know that forcertainty, because we have 1000s
of years of experience. So thisguy came up to me with this
(12:39):
idea, I wish I was aware of thepolymetallic nodules that have
formed on the bottom of thePacific Ocean. I've got one over
there. Let's see if I can go getit.
David Evans (12:48):
Yeah, that'd be very cool.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (12:50):
Yeah, these these nodules are,
David Evans (12:55):
at this point, Greg actually went off to go and grab
one of these nodules. And youcan see in the video, this
strange nodule metallic lookingsubstance that is straight off
the bottom of the ocean floor.
I'll let Greg describe it alittle bit. But if you want to
see the full video of ourinterview, and this little
snippet, that'll be on ourpublic place network video page,
where you can see all of thevideo interviews and all of the
(13:16):
video content that we have forthis podcast. Now for season
two. They were
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (13:22):
first found in the 1800s during
something called the Challengerexpedition, which was the first
oceanographic expedition ever.
And the British had fitted a gunboat and traveled around the
world for two years and to tryto find out a little bit about
the ocean and they put pullthese things up. Can you see it?
Yeah, whoa. And they're like apearl Dave, they they sit on the
(13:45):
seafloor, and they theyaccumulate atoms of what's in
the seawater like a pearl does,very slowly. This is probably 10
million years old. Every elementon the periodic table that you
learned in high school is in theocean, it's it's in solution in
the ocean, in different forms.
(14:07):
And these nodules form and theyreflect the relative abundances
of the elements in the area ofwhich they form. And it turns
out in certain places,especially about halfway between
Mexico and why there's a veryhigh concentration of nickel,
cobalt, manganese, and copper,which are all the metals we need
(14:31):
for all these electric cars thatare coming up you right, which
which is a it's between a 600and 1,000% increase in demand
over the next 1020 years. Now,if you go to a terrestrial
solution for this, you'relooking at 1% grades of nickel
laterites. We've already takenall the high grades out pretty
(14:53):
quickly and there's zero wastein this this is 100% reusable
metal and what's not met Oh isnon toxic and perfect additive
for cement? There's no wayswears, you know, in the
traditional mining industry,it's 99% waste. And you end up
with these, you have a mountain,you take down and you use 1% of
(15:14):
the mountain and the rest of themountain, you've got to do
something like that. It's just,it's, it's just horrible. And we
we offshore these activities todeveloping countries, because,
you know, we don't want to havethem in California here. So why
not put them down in some placein Africa or Indonesia, we're
not going to see it. And there'svery little oversight. So this
(15:38):
was a solution. And you can findenough of these things and an
area less than 1% of the bottomof the sea floor to supply the
humanity for hundreds of years.
David Evans (15:48):
Until really, they're that that plentiful.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (15:51):
Yeah.
It's like cobblestones, I canshow you pictures, what they
look, wow. They're very, verydense. And we can get these into
a closed loop material. We're ina material crisis, that this guy
got a Nobel award for thechemistry a few months ago. And
he said, This is not a questionabout supply shortages here. And
there. He said, This is aquestion about lack of atoms and
(16:13):
molecules of everything. Hesays, we're running out of
everything. And we've got toreally rethink how we're going
to do this. So this techniqueallows you to project a period
of extraction, which would be20 3040 years and then a period
where you can close the loopbecause you can't destroy an
(16:36):
atom. Atoms are perfectlyrecyclable, especially battery
metals and battery metals. Andother metals are absolutely
essential for the new renewableenergy future, we must we must
embrace. Otherwise, we'redoomed, right? This to me seemed
like the most tangible, nittygritty hands on thing I could
(16:57):
get involved with to stop thisdirection we're headed in, you
know, I was in Paris as ascience advisement that climate
summit. You know, we haven't wehaven't, we haven't stopped
since then we're stillincreasing our co2 emissions.
And a guy did a paper the otherday, and he said, If we continue
to do that, it's going to be 150degrees on this planet about 200
(17:19):
years. I mean, and you lookaround you, there's these
monster tornados in Kentucky,there's no lobsters left in Cape
Cod, the Gulf Stream slowingdown. upwelling is beginning to
stop, the planet is coming anddone in terms of us things that
we liked, the it'll always behere, they'll always be life,
(17:40):
they'll always be things goingon. But in terms of the kind of
environment that we enjoy aspeople, and we have occupied
this planet, now, it's no longerEarth, like it was 300 years
ago, now it's a new earth,people or something, give it a
new name. This guy came up withmy book launch, when I published
my book solvency in the age ofthe algorithm. And he had
(18:02):
researched me, she chased medown and he said, he wanted to
pursue this industry. It'sregulated by the UN. It's been
in development for 30 years,it's got a regulatory, it's got
everything you want. It's evengot a system for sharing
resources with poor people.
(18:22):
There's an off take the top ofthe structure that goes into a
pool, that is then redistributedto try to ease away at this
north south divide, it's notgoing to solve it, but it's one
way to begin to get at it. And Iknew he was going to take help
from the environmentalcommunity. Because it says it's,
it's, it's called,
David Evans (18:42):
as you're saying, mining is a hard sell. And it it
has it has quite the reputation.
Yeah, it sounds like it's quitedifferent than an open pit. Mine
typically would be. I mean, wewere not unfamiliar to that up
here in Canada as well. But whatare the main things that the
environmental movement, I guess,is pointing to with this? And
how, how do you address it?
(19:02):
Well,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (19:03):
first thing I had to do was he asked
me to join the company and helpbecause he knew he was going to
need somebody like me to givehim cover, because I had a
reputation. And people knew thatI was a conservationist and, and
all that. So I said, I said,okay, and he said, You got to
keep in mind, this is a one waystreet for you. And I said, you
(19:24):
have to keep in mind that if Ifind someone I like I'm gonna
leave and that's not gonna.
That's not going to be very goodfor you. Yeah. And he said, if
you find something, you know,like, I'll be right behind you.
So I felt like I was with theright people. And I gave a
speech in Abu Dhabi three yearsago at the economist ocean
Summit, where it was the firsttime scientists like me, someone
who has some credibility in theenvironmental community stood up
(19:47):
and said, you know, we must dothis, you know, and all my
colleagues were all saying, no,no, no, don't do it. Can't do
it. Can't do it. They weren't Ifound any alternatives, it would
just say, Don't do that, youknow? And that's not acceptable.
You can't say no, without sayingdo this instead. Because if you
(20:08):
just keep saying no, you don'tgo anywhere, and boy, were they
mad at me. I mean, I've gotevery day that I've got every
award, they give for diving andconservation over there, I can't
even keep them on the shelf,there's so many of them. And
over the years, so, so I had thecredibility to take this
(20:28):
position. And I don't knowwhat's wrong with them. They're,
they're just, they're just,they're just blind to a
planetary perspective, you'vegot to have a planetary
perspective, you can't look atsquare meter of seafloor and
say, if you pick this nodule up,you're going to kill these three
worms, therefore don't do it.
You know, that's, that's justnot the way it works. Everything
(20:53):
we do has an impact. So we're ata point now where we need to
find out what what are the leastimpacts for the way forward and
take those. And this to meclearly, is that we're still
getting held. We had Greenpeaceout 1000 miles offshore, this
site, by the ways ininternational waters 1000 miles
offshore, and Greenpeace was outthere spray painting or boat or
(21:15):
research boat, this wasn't evena commercial, really, we're out
there doing research trying todo the environmental impact
assessment about whether or notthis can be done. We still
haven't decided whether we'regoing to do it. We're doing the
research to and I used to workwith Greenpeace, I use the
Rainbow Warrior early in mycareer. David, one of the
(21:36):
founders, I dated the gal thatnamed the Rainbow Warrior. I
mean, I know how I know theirculture. And I said to him, I
said, God, don't you guys havesomething better to do? You're
out here trying to stopsomething that's good. Go take
your boat and run it back andforth in front of the
Mississippi River and drawpeople's attention to reactive
(21:56):
nitrogen and phosphorus ispouring out of that every day,
and killing the ocean. And Igave him about five or six other
things that are unattended.
Instead, they're off trying tostop something unneeded should
be done. Because it's flashy.
And it gives, right. Anyway,it's so I spent the last couple
of years I didn't think I'd haveto do it. But I've been back
(22:17):
into publishing papers, sciencepapers about this, trying to
explain it in science terms. AndI just hope that we get over
this knot, and we can disruptthe mining industry in this
direction, because if we do Ithink back of the envelope
calculation, it's about 30 to40% of what needs to be done on
this planet. Now, as soon aspossible if we have any slim
(22:39):
chance of getting out of thismess we're in. And this is a
substantial solution. And it'sbeing held up by the
environmental community.
David Evans (22:47):
Do you think it's being held up primarily because
it's a new industry, and it's soflashy, or because people hear
mining and they, they justassumed that we don't know
enough about the oceans yet tobe able to do this. With knowing
the impacts.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (23:05):
I mean, backing up a little bit,
they do have cause to haveconcern, because in the past,
industry has lied to us. They'vesaid, Hey, don't worry about
we'll take care of it, and theydidn't. But what these folks
don't realize is that since thattime, there's some sociological
psychological science around thefact that our frameworks and our
(23:27):
minds, the way we look at theworld is about 30 years behind
science and reality. Right?
They're looking at this throughlike 1970s 1980s thinking. And
since then we've got the Law ofthe Sea, we got the Convention
on Biological Diversity, we'vegot a whole bunch of very strong
treaties that have come intoplace. There's science that
says, This is not as bad as wethink. And they're not taking
(23:52):
that into account. They'reimagining it's 1970. And this
company is just rising up out ofnowhere going to destroy the
world. You know, right. That'skind of their perspective. But I
think we're at a turning point,and we will be able to do this
and then I can move on. I mean,this isn't what I wanted to do
for the rest of my life. I didthis really because I wanted to
(24:13):
give this industry a chance toget going exactly. I realized if
I sort of laid my body acrossit, you know that it might have
it might have a chance I did wasable to recruit colleagues to
join me they're not as highprofile as I am. But people like
you know, Jared Diamond is I'veheard the name yet. Yeah, germs
(24:34):
and steel. He's a brilliantanthropologist, good friend of
mine. He's outraged at whatthese groups are doing and he's
gonna write an essay soon andand there's a bunch of others
that feel the same way. It isthe right path. The arguments
are just right. I had aninteresting experience. Last
week I had a phone call from astudent I get a lot of phone
(24:55):
calls from students who wantadvice about their careers. I
was taking If I can, because Ifigure that's part of my, my job
as a, as a, as a senior memberof this discipline. So she said
to me, Dr. Stone, the reason Icall is I want to find out how
you got from where you were towhere you are now. And I said,
Okay, so I told her the story.
(25:18):
And she said, Well, I agree withyou, you know, she said, I think
these are the solution. And Idon't understand why the
environmental community soworked up about it. And I said,
Well, there you have it. I said,By the way, where are you from?
And she said, I'm from Scripps.
And I said, Scripps, and who'syour advisor? She told me and
her advisors, one of the majorcritics of this. And she said,
(25:41):
she said, I feel like I'm in amadhouse down here. You know,
these people? Are, they'remaking decisions based on
getting money,
David Evans (25:52):
based on Yeah, based on money and fear. And
yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (25:56):
yeah, yeah, they're just, they're just
not thinking clearly, I
David Evans (26:00):
guess to give the listeners a bit of a an idea or
a picture of how this actuallyworks. So these nodules are
sitting on the bottom, it's notlike you're going to the bottom
and mining a big pit or a holedown there something so I assume
it's robotics, or could you justpaint a picture of what this
actually looks like,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (26:18):
I can do better than that, I can
show you a very short film thatshows the whole thing and 60s
Perfect. We go down with athere's a ship on the surface.
And then there's a vehicle onthe bottom that we haven't come
up with the word, it's notreally mining, it's like
hoovering, or vacuuming orsomething like that. We're not
destroying, we're not cracking,we're not grinding or anything,
(26:39):
we're just picking rocks up, andthen they get pulled up to the
surface, and then they get takento land. And then they get
processed, and we've got a zerocarbon budget, and we've got
zero wastes, you could put thisnext to a nursery school, it
wouldn't matter. The processingof these nodules is so but it's
a very simple process. And it isworth seeing.
David Evans (27:03):
At this point, we watched the metals company video
on their actual productionsystem, and how they actually
are mining or hoovering up thesenodules from the ocean floor, to
watch it yourself,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (27:16):
go to the metals company, and it's
the head video, it should comeup first, and you just hit play,
that tells the whole story therein like 90 seconds,
David Evans (27:26):
I would definitely say to go check out this video,
it really illustrates what thiswhole mining process would look
like. And even gets an idea ofall of these nodules that are
just sitting on the ocean floorthat we can use. So go check it
out of the metals companywebsite, there'll be a link in
the show notes as well.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (27:43):
But that's pretty much what it looks
like down there. You can see outreally that many? Yeah, it's
considered a fairly deposit areaof the seafloor. There's not a
lot of big animals down there.
Although the critics claim thatthere's all these important
microbes, we've had theopportunity to work with the
engineers, as they're designingit and optimizing it for what we
(28:04):
want
David Evans (28:07):
is very, very interesting. What is the energy
source to power all of this? Isit primarily wind, renewable,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (28:15):
we had originally thought that we
had to have it near a hydro damor a nuclear plant or something
like that. But then we realizedthat as long as you're able to
pump renewable energy into thegrid somewhere else, right, to
account for what we use forokay, that freed up our location
David Evans (28:32):
search. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty
Dr. Greg Stone, The Met (28:35):
simple.
And it makes sense. And theother thing is the timeframe,
you know, all these electriccars that are coming out are
coming out like tomorrow, and aterrestrial mind takes 10 to 15
years from conception toproduction. So we're gonna miss
it. We could produce thesemetals next year.
David Evans (28:51):
Wow. That's how quickly you could scale up. Yep.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (28:55):
Yep.
So this is a solution, the realnitty gritty solution. We're not
just sitting and talking tomeetings and speculating and
stuff like that. What's thesolution?
David Evans (29:05):
Yeah, I got the idea that you're you're a man of
action and not a man to just sitaround and then not move
forward?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (29:12):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I like to
sleep well at night.
David Evans (29:19):
So I'm curious nodules, are they mostly the
size the one that you have inyour hand? Or, or do they get
quite large, this
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (29:26):
is a bit of a larger one. Actually,
this size we will leave behindby design, because this is a
place that animals canrecolonize on there were some
obligate animals that neednodules to live on. So we're at
15%, behind the ones that wewant them we're like the size.
David Evans (29:43):
In the recording, you can see that Greg den holds
up a nodule that is just alittle bit smaller than a ping
pong ball. So that's the sizethat they're hoping to collect.
Oh,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (29:52):
we are in the age of metals. David,
the age of oil is passed. Andnow we're in the age of metals
because with metals arrayInteresting to put in the right
systems, we can have a renewableenergy system. That's a closed
loop in terms of material with,you know, no fossil fuels and
all that. So metals is what it'sall about.
David Evans (30:13):
Yeah. And I mean, it's definitely something that
I've heard more and more aboutknowing where the metals that
power or cellphone come from, orwhat goes into your electric
vehicle and the talk aboutbatteries. In my mind, it kind
of comes down to a number ofyears ago, when, what was the
movie that blood diamond andthings like that, and, and how
(30:36):
they're similar? Very similar.
Exactly, exactly. But peoplefantasize about diamonds and not
necessarily about manganese. Andin copper,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (30:44):
this is just to the north south
divide I was talking aboutearlier, right? The people that
are against this are sitting inoffices, much like you and I
are, you know, we have metal allaround us, we have a metal car
outside. Metal is not just aboutbatteries, inspect cars, it's
about bridges, it's aboutbuildings. And fully half the
(31:05):
world is not developed yet,right. And we have people
sitting in these nice offices atStanford, and Scripps, and
they're very comfortable intheir lives. And they say, Oh,
why change anything, don't dothat. That sounds bad like that.
They don't think about theglobal equity that we must
change, sort of to combat thator deal with that. I've come to
(31:29):
the realization that it's abouteducation. And it's about
pulling people from developingcountries, bringing them up here
to North America or Europe,putting them through school at
very importantly, at theundergraduate level, not the
graduate level, but theundergraduate level. So they can
can understand how we think andhow we look at money. And it
(31:50):
gets very different the way theywhat they do. And I think that
will help equip them to engagein and hopefully sort this out.
Because until we take care ofthe fellow humans on this
planet, things will not work.
Did you know there are 2 billionpeople on the planet that cannot
afford a bicycle. Wow. Yeah. Andif they had a bicycle, that
would change their lives, theycould get their meager products
(32:13):
to market faster, and maybe $5extra a month. And if they made
$5 extra month, they can save upfor school supplies for their
kid, and they can take their kidto school on a bicycle. It's
transformative. There's a famousexplanation of what the washing
machine did for women. Itcompletely liberalized them. And
we just we ignore it, becauseit's so it's so convenient to
(32:36):
ignore what's happened to mostof the humanity or half of
humanity. Because those of usthat are lucky enough to be on
this side of the curve, youknow, why worry. And I was
flying from I took a helicopterride from San Diego to LAX a
couple months ago. And that wasriding right along the
(32:57):
coastline. I was just looking atall the houses. And it was
obscene the way it was, therewas houses built, you know, 1234
up the hillside, and each househad a swimming pool, each house
had an SUV, this each outside ofthat. And there's no way this
planet can supply that kind oflifestyle for everybody. But
(33:19):
that is what people look at andsay that's what we want. So I'm
beginning to think that we needto re envision cities probably
along the coastline, big bigapartment complexes that are
safe, that are pleasant andconcentrate people in those
places, and then leave openareas around them where we can
(33:42):
have crops growing, we can havesome wildlife experiences and
and begin to engineer thisplanet for 10 billion people.
Because right now, we're notdoing that we're just
haphazardly going forward at thewhim of people's needs, people's
desires. And those of us in thedeveloped world are running the
(34:02):
show. So I've been and I don'tknow what caused the north south
divide. I wish I did. I'vethought about it a lot. I wrote
about it in my book, my lastbook a little bit. No, no one
knows. Some people say it's aCatholic church. Some people say
Jared Diamond argues guns, germsand steel. It had to do with
those that have the steel andthe germs and the guns first.
(34:23):
But there was a time in historywhere a divide was created. And
we had these two worlds. Thereason it's called the north
south divide is the primeminister of Germany in 1980s,
was looking at a globe in hisoffice and he was noticing that
most of the countries south ofthe equator were undeveloped,
(34:45):
and most of the countries northof the equator were developed.
And he called it the Brandtline. His name was Brandt. And
that didn't last long. It turnedover to the north south divide,
but it's essentially a very,very steep inequity between
societies. And I don't know whatto do about that, then the
climate crisis is acceleratingmuch faster than we thought.
(35:09):
Right. And I can attest to thatfirsthand. I've been out looking
myself diving and I went to theGalapagos Islands a few months
ago for National Geographic isone of their guests scientists
on one of their Lindblad trips,and, and I dive there a lot. And
I was I was kind of on vacation,really. But I switched on my my
science brain. And I startedlooking around and I said,
(35:32):
Something's not right. TheGalapagos is where we have the
most upwelling anywhere in theworld. That's what drives the
ocean is bringing this nutrientcold, deep sea to, and I saw
skinny seals, you don't seeskinny seals and like Guapa
silence, you know, you can seethe bones on their back, you
know, there's, you see thevertebra sticking out. In the
(35:53):
fish biomass was way low, andlobsters are gone from Cape Cod
now, and the Gulf Stream isslowing down and the whole
thermo hay line circulationsystem is beginning to halt. Or
I do think that we're on theverge of collapse, a climate
collapse. And I think that mightfollow up civilization collapse
(36:14):
in the next couple of 100 years,unless we have some
technological advances, which wecould some extraordinary things
that we could do pumping gasesup into the upper atmosphere,
for example, that might cool theplanet down, there are things
that we could do that I hope wecan do them. But the moment the
(36:34):
best we can do is just keepgoing to these treaty meetings
and pushing solutions like thisand doing everything that we
can. And we should be talkingabout it every day, from morning
till night. You know, my parentswere both in World War Two. And
they told me that during WorldWar Two was an existential
threat to the world. And as aresult, everybody was focused on
(36:57):
it, hyper focused on it. Andthat's all we talked about for
four years was the war. And wewant it and put that to bed.
Well, this, this, this thread isabout 1000 times worse. And
we're not talking about it. Youknow, it's something that we
should talk about. And, and Ihave a belief that if we talk
(37:17):
about it enough, it'll happen.
So that's why I like podcastslike yours, in anything that
will raise people's awareness ofthis stuff.
David Evans (37:30):
Yeah, that's exactly what I love being able
to speak with people such asyourself, who are clearly very
knowledgeable about thesethings. And I get to learn and
share this with others as well.
What would be the number onething that you would like
listeners to this podcast totake away or to take into their
own life moving forward?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (37:50):
Yeah, that's a tough one. I get that
question asked a lot. When Igive talks and stuff, everybody
always says at the end of thetalk, they raise their hand,
they say, Well, what can I do?
You know, I recycled plastic andI have electric car. And is that
enough? And I always say, No,it's nowhere near enough. You've
got to do a lot more. And youcan't do it all either. I said,
think about the Earth as a sickrelative. And it's dying. It's
(38:14):
having a real hard time. And thethings that you can do are like
bringing in a cup of hot tea tothe to your sick relative by
these laudable minoradjustments. I said, you need to
hire a doctor who knows how tofix this. The Stockholm center
for resilience is one that Ilike a lot. And there's any
(38:35):
number of groups around look atthem carefully, though, make
sure they're not phonies. Intheir greenwashing. I started
something called pole to poleconservation. Right? Yes, we
need to talk about that stuff.
And what I did is a I rethoughtthe whole paradigm of how things
are set up. And I realized thatwe needed to devolve from large
(38:56):
fingers to small, nimble,integrated entities within
society that ultimately wouldseamlessly become a big part of
society. This should be notsomething special, it should be
just who we are. It should bebuilt into the fabric of how we
operate. And I'm writing anessay on that right now that's
(39:16):
going to be part of our annualreport. So finding the right
organizations to support you cannever go wrong by influencing
politicians. If you can, theywill listen to you. And if
there's a piece of public policythat will help write a letter
and tell the guy to support it,but in terms of your own
personal life, focus on the bigthings that are in your life,
(39:39):
heating your house, driving yourcar, the amount of travel you do
with carbon released inairplanes, don't focus on the
small stuff, you know, recyclingplastic bags, it's not going to
save the world. It makes peoplefeel good, but it's not going to
save the world. That's my adviceis to be scared. I'm terrified.
Be scared. but optimistic andkeep learning, keep listening,
(40:02):
keep listening to your podcastand let that lead to another
podcast. And there's got to be atipping point that when we talk
about it, and enough, we willall come to the same awareness.
And that will then I think,transform how we do things.
Because right now we're notthere. And then there's so many
rich people in the world, somany Uber wealthy people in the
world that deny climate change,they deny all this stuff.
(40:26):
Because if they didn't deny it,how can they live with
themselves with all that money?
You know, right? If I had money,a lot of money, I don't, I would
pump it into the developingworld in a constructive way. You
can't just give them money, alot of waste, you got to channel
it through systems. Right nowI'm working on COVID Relief Fund
for some developing countries inSouth Pacific. And we're sending
(40:49):
it through the Ministry ofHealth, making sure people, it's
used properly, we have to sendresources to these countries,
because they don't have enoughto have a look some day at the
mean life expectancy ofcountries around the world.
That's a real eye opener, when Ifirst started working in
Carabosse, this country thatI've done quite a bit of work.
(41:10):
And the mean life expectancy was46. I think, wow, oh, gosh, I
started noticing it. I wouldcome back after a trip. And I'd
say, Hey, where's Johnny, youknow, and they go, Oh, John, Oh,
Johnny died. And then they go onto the next thing. Wait a
minute, what did you say Johnnydied? And they say, yeah, what
(41:31):
happened to him? And they said,Oh, Johnny, I don't know, what
was it with Johnny? Maybe it wasa heart attack or diabetes? I
can't remember. They're soaccepting of it and used to it,
you know, right. That it's,it's, it's, it's, it's sad. But
it's an indicator, our expectedlife expectancy keeps going up.
(41:52):
I think the developed world isnow 76 or 80, something like
that. Care abouts gone up tothey're up to 55. Now, but
that's a real telltale sign ofconditions, because the reason
it slow is they don't getregular health checks. They
don't have hospitals that areadequate. And that's a
humanitarian problem. I don'tknow why the world ended up the
(42:14):
way it did. It should have Whydidn't Why didn't and then an
end up with equal developmentall around, you know, right.
It's just like, why did we endup with this big divide?
David Evans (42:28):
Absolutely perplexing, because it doesn't
seem to be rooted in anythingobvious at all?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (42:34):
Well, yeah, I wrote about it a little
bit. In my book, I argued thatcountries with with maritime
capability early got anadvantage. And then Vantage has
not been reset that could bewrong. Other people have argued
the Catholic Church has been abig inhibitor of growth in
especially South America.
There's a lot of theories aboutit. But it makes no sense that
(42:54):
the United States is the way itis. And then you go one foot
over a border, and you're in acompletely different universe,
you know, Canada and America,we've sort of, we're sort of the
same thing. You know, we're sameculture, same economic system. I
don't know. There's a gal that Imet you might want to try to
get, I can introduce you to her.
(43:17):
Her name is Aurora, and she wasa mid level auditor at the UN 35
years old. And she noticed thatthe UN had this enormous foreign
aid budget that was mostly beingspent for internal un offices
and executive salaries andstuff. So she ran for Secretary
(43:37):
General, it turns out, you canrun for Secretary General,
there's nothing to stop you fromdoing it. Well, no one had ever
done that before, though,because it's sort of run like
the old Soviet Union. You haveone person who's the Secretary
General. And then he figures outwho the next Secretary General
is going to be. And she tried todisrupt that she got on the
(43:58):
ballot, and New York Times wroteher up New Yorker wrote her up,
and they decided to cancel theelections that year. But her
agenda was simple. And I likedit. She said to me, Greg, the
agenda should be everybody inthe world has access to
education, and everybody in theworld has access to the
internet. And with those twothings, that has a chance of
(44:20):
balancing things out, becauseyou can do business now on the
internet, you know, if you're ina remote area, and this this
meta, what's it called the meta
David Evans (44:29):
know something?
Yeah, the new Facebook thing,right?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals Co (44:32):
I don't know if it's Facebook, but
it's a world that you live in,and you can conduct business in
it and do things, right. That'sa business you could start on an
atoll out in the middle ofnowhere, you know? So that's a
good agenda, education andinternet for everybody. It's
simple. You can get you can getyour arms around it. So there's
(44:52):
a lot of things out there andI'm glad that you're concerned.
You're aware you're a smart guy.
David Evans (44:59):
Just trying Just trying to soak up as much as I
can from credible individualssuch as yourself.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (45:04):
What motivated you? Did you? Were
your parents very moral peopleor
David Evans (45:11):
did Yeah, I think my parents were very moral
people and very much supportedme to follow where my
curiosities led, and where mypassions lead. I've been a very,
very fortunate to have had thepast experiences that I've had
and been able to work in anindustry to be involved with
projects where I get to askquestions and be involved in the
(45:34):
decision making process, butalso get to learn more about our
natural environment, and be ableto ask questions that we as a
population want to know abouthow our environment is doing.
I've been fortunate enough tohave that support to be able to
do this. And I've been blownaway with the reception to
providing a podcast ID I have tosay what it was, I was very
(45:57):
nervous at the beginning. And Istill get nervous as well and
just cold call emailing people,and then speaking with him about
topics that I am not veryfamiliar with myself. But I
think it's by pushing yourselfand expanding and going into
places where you're notnecessarily comfortable in
asking questions where you don'tknow the answers and are open to
(46:17):
learning. That's where you canshow that it's okay to ask
questions, and it's okay to notknow and to learn. And by
sharing that experience withothers, I think it's a more
genuine experience for alistener and, and for people who
want to learn as well. It's moreopen and inviting, and to show
that it's okay not to know andit's okay to learn.
Unknown (46:37):
Is your business model working.
David Evans (46:41):
My business model with the podcast? Yeah, I mean,
I'm not from the revenue pointof view, my whole goal was not
to turn this into a business, ifit eventually did have support,
then that would be phenomenal.
But for me, this is about melearning and about me being able
to start sharing what I'mlearning and being able to reach
an audience that does notnecessarily know about these
(47:02):
different issues and to helpspread the word. And I think to
a certain degree, I see this asthe next step within my role
within science. As someone whohas a basic foundation in some
concepts within science, it canbe quite daunting to those who
don't have that background toeven know where to begin with
asking questions. And I think weshould all be trying to expand
(47:25):
the world of everyone else, andbe able to have these
discussions and to spread thisknowledge around. And for me,
it's just been a pleasure, justlearning. And I've been having
so much fun learning thebackside of the podcast and the
organization of it and gettingto speak with individuals, such
as yourself, it affords me thatopportunity, which is a
wonderful for myself, and justeven hearing from some of the
(47:46):
listeners, and I'm sure you alsohave a podcast, which I was
going to ask you about as well.
But for me, at least hearingback from some of the listeners
who I haven't met, or peoplethat I I've known from many
years ago that have been goingthrough hard times and hearing
how much that they've gainedfrom the podcast. And with me
(48:07):
not even being aware thatthey're listening, and how how
much they've they've been takingfrom it, it's it's been a very,
very enriching experience. AndI'm excited to see where it
continues to grow to
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (48:20):
what kind of what kind of audience
you have.
David Evans (48:23):
Primarily it's the demographic is typically between
20 and 40. And typically, it'sindividuals that most do have a
bit of a scientific background.
But my idea is to try to targetthose who don't have a
scientific background, or don'thave post secondary education,
and how to distill theseconcepts down to bite sized
(48:44):
understandings. And then, ifpeople are interested in then
they can listen to the entireconversations with the experts
as well to expand theirknowledge on that and see where
it goes from there.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Meta (48:55):
Great.
Well, I like you and keep doingwhat you're doing. You can count
on me for future interactions.
Should you need it.
David Evans (49:03):
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah. Do you have
anywhere where you would likelisteners to learn more about
the metals company? Or do yourpodcasts? Would you like to put
in a little promotion there forany event?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (49:15):
Oh, thank you. I'd be happy to tell
people about this foundationthat I've co founded called pole
to pole conservation. Great.
David Evans (49:23):
Yes,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (49:24):
it's a different kind of thing. It's
small. We don't have money, youknow, pay executive salaries,
most of the leadershipvolunteers. We do pay people. In
other words, our overhead isvery low. The money that you put
in here goes to the problem. Andwe're sending kids to college,
which I think is one of the mostsignificant things you can do.
(49:47):
We're also working on naturallyheat resistant corals, which I
think could be the future ofcoral reefs in the world. And
then we're engaging inopportunities that come along
with the sea is significant.
It's a new way of doing businessin the NGO world. It's not the
bingo, we're nimble, we'resmall, we're smart,
David Evans (50:06):
we're results driven,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (50:09):
we will make the most out of
contributions that people make,you can be rest assured of that
I think our overhead is probablygoing to be around less than 5%.
And that's just paying likeaccountants and stuff like that.
That's something I'd like topass on. I'd like to pass on for
people to be open minded,they're going to hear a lot of
propaganda, but deep sea mining,and it is propaganda, and have
(50:34):
them dig in and read and learnthemselves and make a decision.
And don't just listen to whatpeople are telling, because
there are people, I don't knowwhy they do it. But they are
protecting their careers ortheir previous statements or
whatever. They're not thinkingglobally, they're not thinking
about us, they're not thinkingabout you, they're thinking
about themselves. They don'thave the awareness where they
(50:57):
should be. Those are the mainthings is please learn. And this
is one very timely issue whichwe could use your help on, and
that your helped me Don't signmoratoriums, they've set up a
moratorium regime, which isdesigned to kill the industry,
they will tell you that, butthat's what it's designed to do.
They say, oh, you should wait 10years and then learn more about
(51:21):
the ocean and then do this. Andwell, anybody in their right
mind knows that in 10 years,there's not going to be any
investors. And the world willhave gone on to another
solution, which is like diggingup half of Indonesia. And
they're not they're not honestabout that. I'm very
disappointed in their theirethics. That's what I'd like the
listeners to be aware of, andhave them think a lot about
(51:44):
people in the world that weshare on this little teeny
planet. If you look at thosepictures from outerspace man
that that atmosphere is razorthin, and we have completely
polluted it. And we've got tostop. It's out of control. So
the it's optimistic, but it'surgent. People don't often don't
know what to do, though, I knowthat. So if they don't know what
(52:06):
to do, if they have resources,find a group that's good, and
give them some money, so thatthey can operate, if they can
actually take actions in theirlives, do that. But do something
everybody needs to do somethingdoesn't have to be climate,
everybody should follow theirpassion. If hunger is what it is
(52:29):
do hunger, it's women's rightsto women's rights, whatever it
is, do something every day, andthe world will change. Don't be
passive.
David Evans (52:41):
I couldn't have said it better myself. That is
quite the statement to leave on.
Greg, this has been an amazingconversation. Thank you so much
for speaking with me that I'velearned so much. And this has
been such an enrichingconversation. Yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (52:55):
I've enjoyed it today. But I really
have.
David Evans (53:03):
Thank you so much for listening to today's deep
dive episode with Dr. GregStone, where we talked all about
exploring the ocean, finding outwhat's deep down there, how to
solve the north south divide,and all about polymetallic
nodules and how we can use themfor electric vehicle batteries.
Thank you so much to Dr. GregStone for speaking with us for
(53:24):
the podcast. It was a fantasticconversation. I'm so excited to
see what happens with the metalscompany. And when we can start
actually putting thesepolymetallic nodules into
electric vehicle batteries andinto vehicles. You can learn
more about the metals companyand Dr. Greg stone@metals.co.
They've got some great videocontent where you can really
(53:46):
visualize what we've beentalking about, of these
polymetallic nodules in thebottom of the ocean and
hoovering them up to be able tobring them to the surface and
then take them into vehicles andmake a closed loop system. Take
a look. It'll make a lot moresense there. Dr. Greg Stone also
has a podcast. So if you likethis, check his out. It's called
The C has many voices and can befound on Google, Apple, podcast,
(54:11):
Spotify, you name it, it'severywhere. Be sure to check it
out. I'm the host and producerDavid Evans. And I just like to
thank the rest of the team,specifically Paul Polman, Lee
Burton, and the rest of theaquatic biosphere board. Thanks
for all of your help. And tolearn more about the aquatic
biosphere project and what we'redoing right here in Alberta
telling the story of water, youcan check us out at aquatic
(54:33):
biosphere.ca. And we also havelaunched our new media company,
ABN aquatic biosphere network,which you can find that the
public place dot online andsearch for the aquatic biosphere
network channel where we willactually be posting all of the
video episodes that we're goingto be creating this year. So
(54:53):
tune in. They will be out forthe next little while but very
excited to start sharing videocontent as well of our interview
Make sure you're subscribedbecause the next topic that
we're diving into is medicinefrom the sea, the ocean as our
future pharmacy, what we canlearn from the ocean creatures
and how we can use them formodern medicine. You will want
(55:16):
to miss it. If you have anyquestions or comments about the
show, we'd love to hear them.
Email us at conservation ataquatic biosphere.org. Please
don't forget to like, share andsubscribe. Leave us a review. It
really helps us out. Thanks andit's been a splash
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!