September 21, 2022 • 39 mins
In today's deep dive episode we take it to the experts to find out what we should know about water, security and peace. We talk with Dr. Susanne Schmeier from IHE DELFT about how countries negotiate water agreements over shared water access.
For more information about Dr. Susanne Schmeier's work click here to go to the IHE Delft website to learn more about their programs and research projects. And for more information on the Water, Peace, and Security Partnership that Dr. Susanne runs click here.
The ABP is establishing a conservation Aquarium in the Prairies to help tell the Story of Water.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Evans (00:06):
Welcome to another deep dive episode of the what
are we doing podcast today we'retalking with Dr. Susannah
Schneier, an associate professorof waterline diplomacy at Ihe,
Delft in the Netherlands. Nowwaterline diplomacy, what does
that really mean? So Dr.
Susannah works with manydifferent countries around the
globe, trying to predict whereconflict will occur, and how we
can resolve these conflictspreemptively, or how we can ease
(00:29):
tensions with water sharingagreements, and other things
like that. So she's working allover the world with many
different countries that shareriver systems and one country
expects more water than theother country is providing to
them, and how we can maintainpeaceful negotiations and shared
agreements, rather than going toarmed conflicts. Now, many of
(00:51):
you may have heard of the wordwater wars, and these are true
things. But Dr. Susannah is partof the team that's trying to
work behind the scenes to makesure that we avoid any of these
types of conflicts movingforward. So yeah, this is a big
topic. But Dr. Suzanne is goingto take us through it step by
step. So sit back, relax, andget ready to learn a little bit
(01:12):
more about water Law andDiplomacy around the globe. How
we can fix all of our transboundary water issues, and how
we can predict where we're goingto see these issues popping up
in the future. Thanks, sir.
(01:34):
Barney, G. nippy, Oh, me,too. Low in zero to marry a
cheap, Chinese way. Why natural?
(02:02):
Water are we doing? And how canwe do better? Your one stop shop
for everything water relatedfrom discussing water, its use
and the organisms that depend onit. For all the global issues
that you really never knew allhad to do with water. I'm your
(02:24):
host, David Evans from theaquatic biosphere project. And I
just want to ask you something.
What are we doing? How can we dobetter?
Welcome to another deep diveepisode of the water. We're
(02:45):
doing podcast. So today we'respeaking with Dr. Susannah
smart. So can you start off withjust introducing yourself a
little bit and let our listenersknow a little bit about
yourself?
Unknown (02:56):
Hi, thanks for having me with you today. My name is
Susanna I work for IgG Delft,which is a UNESCO affiliated
Institute for water education inthe Netherlands. And we're
actually the largest graduatefacility that doesn't graduate
education. So MSc and PhDprograms on water. And when I
(03:16):
say water, I really meananything from hydrology to water
law and from more sociologicalperspectives to engineering. And
in addition to the educationalwork we do, we also do research
projects, we advise governmentsand yeah, develop innovative
solutions to address the variouswater challenges that that the
(03:36):
world is facing.
David Evans (03:38):
Water challenges that the world is facing, you
mean, there's some waterchallenges out there? So I
guess, leading into that, sopart of your role is, as I
understand it, is you lead thewater peace and security
partnership? So let's start offwith what does water have to do
with peace and security?
Unknown (03:56):
Yeah, quite a lot, actually. And much more than
than we typically think whenwhen we think about water, we
think about like rivers,streams, or the water that comes
from the tap. But if we go alittle bit beyond that, we can
we can see that it's very muchrelated to security issues, to
conflict, but also tocooperation and peace. So if we
I mean, knowing that that wateris extremely important for human
(04:19):
lives, livelihoods for economicdevelopment, be it for for food
security, for energy, security,and many, many other sectors. We
know that the fact that water isso important, makes it a highly
valued good by individualpeople, by communities, but also
by entire countries, at the sametime, as water might become more
(04:41):
scarce due to climate change, ordue to the fact that we're
overusing it in many parts ofthe world that can lead to
competition, either becauseindeed, water is becoming
scarcer, or because peopleperceive it as becoming scarcer,
or because the use is justincreasing so more demand has to
be satisfied. by the same amountof water, and that can lead to
(05:03):
situations where there areindividual people or communities
or different ethnic or religiousgroups or different provinces in
a country or even differentcountries see that the way they
want to use water might beincompatible with how a
neighboring community or aneighboring country wants to use
water. And that can can lead toconflict can lead to tensions we
(05:26):
are seeing this, for example, inMali in the inner Niger Delta,
where for some years, there havebeen conflicts, including
violent conflict with quite afew people dying between farmers
herders and fishermen thatcompete over the same increase
and increasingly variable,amount of water from the Niger
River. We're also seeing this,for example, between Ethiopia
(05:48):
and Egypt on the Nile, where thedam building of Ethiopia has
caused severe concerns in Egyptthat fears poor its own water
security, and is thereforeopposing the dam. So we're
seeing that around the worldthat it can lead to tensions to
conflict. But at the same time,and I think that's, that's
important to highlight. These,these conflicts are prominent,
(06:10):
and that's what the media speaksabout. And we've all seen in the
media, these reports on waterwars that might be around the
corner, or water being thesource of wars in the 21st
century. But if we take a bit ofa closer look and look at
empirical evidence from aroundthe world, we see that yes,
there are saltwater conflicts,but they're by far outweighed by
(06:31):
water cooperation. So if we lookat all interactions between
people, between communities,between countries, yes, there
are some conflict of ones andsome that might even involve
violence. But the vast vastmajority is actually cooperative
in nature, which is simplybecause water crosses
boundaries, water just forces usto collaborate, no one can use
(06:53):
water alone. Nobody can developwater water infrastructure
alone. If one does that it canhave negative repercussions on
for example, neighborlyrelations with with other
countries. So ultimately, in thelong run, water forces us to
cooperate. So it is very muchlinked to conflict insecurity,
but also to peace.
David Evans (07:14):
Yeah, it's the thing that brings us all
together. It can also make you alittle jealous of someone else
who's next door and who'sinflicting on your ability and
right to access that water. Sobefore this interview, I kept
reading this word waterdiplomacy. Could you tell us a
little bit about what waterdiplomacy might be and and how
it's used?
Unknown (07:36):
What diplomacy is actually quite a quite a new
term, but not necessarily a newphenomenon. It basically refers
to the use of diplomatic soforeign policy means in order to
address conflicts or potentialconflicts over water mainly
between different countries. Andthe idea behind that, and the
(07:56):
reason why suddenly diplomatsand foreign policymakers become
involved in something that'sotherwise perceived as very
technical and something that'sdealt with by engineers, by data
people, by people from Ministryof Water Environment, why
diplomats become involved, isbecause of the risk that water
tensions, disagreement overwater spill over into more broad
(08:18):
relations between countries.
Right, we've seen adeterioration of relations, for
example, between Tajikistan andUzbekistan, when in 2000 10s,
they were in a disagreement overRakuen dam, a large dam, in
fact, the world's highest damthat Tillerson is building on
the on the river that thecountry's share that had
repercussions on traderelations, political relations,
remittances, and other things.
(08:42):
And in order to prevent suchconflicts from escalating and
ensure that broader bilateralrelations or even regional
stability are not affected,diplomats get get involved in
these processes that areotherwise very technical, but
that has inspired of the newnessof the word water diplomacy
actually happened since a longtime already. I mean, we have
examples from the 1950s 1960salready where diplomats
(09:05):
negotiated over water that theyshared with neighboring
countries.
David Evans (09:10):
I guess there was a prominent use of this would be
for freshwater resources such asrivers, but Would that also
extend as well to fishing rightsand rights to access water in in
oceans and also groundwater? Arethere groundwater diplomacy
issues that extend beyondborders as well?
Unknown (09:29):
Absolutely, I mean, rivers have been quite prominent
in in the news, if we thinkabout the Nile, if we think
about the so diarrhea, if wethink about the rivers shared by
Afghanistan and Iran, theHammond and the hurry road, but
you also equally have tensionsover lakes, they're just a bit
different because there's notthis upstream downstream
(09:52):
dynamic. So there's not such agreat distribution of access or
possibly as a power that comeswith it when upstream state can
do so. something that affectsthe downstream state and the
logic kind of flows downstream.
However, there have beenconflicts, disagreements,
tensions over over lakes aswell. I'm thinking of Lake
Titicaca and Latin America, LakeVictoria and East Africa has
(10:13):
also seen disagreementsincluding overfishing actually
and overfishing by by localpopulations. We're also seeing
that over regional seas and theoceans, although the legal and
institutional framework thatdeals with that is a bit
different from the freshwaterone. And we're also seeing an
increasingly acknowledging thisalso overground water. For a
(10:35):
long time, the attention hasonly been on surface water
simply because knowledge ofgroundwater was very limited. We
know that there are more than310 transboundary rivers that
are shared between countriesaround the world. But only
recently, we also found out thatthere are at least more than 300
transboundary aquifers as well,that are shared between rivers.
So very slowly, this is pickingup and we've seen agreements
(10:59):
between countries being signedover shared aquifers such as
over the DC aquifer betweenJordan and Saudi Arabia,
recently, but also the Guaraniaquifer in Latin America, where
countries have recently cometogether and signed a legally
binding agreement between themhow to manage this this shared
resource.
David Evans (11:18):
Groundwater resource sharing is, it's hard
enough to share a river whereyou can actually see the water
being held back by a dam orbeing being removed from the
system. Whereas groundwater isstill in its infancy on on how
we can actually manage thatresource. What are some of the
strategies that we can use topredict and preemptively deal
(11:39):
with water based conflicts whenthey arise?
Unknown (11:43):
Yeah, I think it's indeed important to identify
these conflicts are the risk forupcoming conflict early in the
process. And research over thepast decades has really helped
us to identify some of the keyparameters that determine
whether conflict might arisewhat the extent of the conflict
will be, and so on. And it'sinteresting to notice there that
(12:05):
the link between water or waterrelated risks such as like water
scarcity, drought or a flood, onthe one hand, and then a
conflict or disagreement, on theother hand, is not very
straightforward. In fact, thelink between water and conflict
is determined by tons of what wewould call intervening factors.
(12:26):
So other factors that determinewhether for example, a, a sudden
water scarcity event actuallyleads to conflict between
villages, or even betweencountries. And these intervening
factors are typically related tothe way we manage water
resources. So research doneactually by the by Oregon State
(12:46):
University in the US, found outand could confirm that it is not
so much the rate of change thathappens in for example, a river
basin. So the hydrologicalenvironmental or climate change
that leads to conflict, but theability or the lack thereof, of
a government and institutionsfrom the local to the national
(13:08):
international level, to dealwith such change. But this is
also good news, because itactually tells us that we can do
something right, it's kind ofdifficult to address climate
change to deal with decreasingwater availability. But we can
deal with how we manage water.
So we can we can buildinstitutions. And that going one
step back again, actually alsohelps us identify where conflict
(13:32):
is likely to happen. So it'slikely to happen not necessarily
only whether it's, for example,a high rate of scarcity, but
more where there's insufficientgovernment capacity to deal with
things with insufficientfinancial capacity to, for
example, offset negative impactson farmers, for example, if
there's if there's droughts,it's related to a lack of
(13:53):
dispute resolution mechanisms,either formal or informal. So
places where people that competethat fight over water can
actually go to and solve theconflict peacefully. It's also
related to more socio economicfactors. Population growth, and
increasing demand by economicsectors are by people also
shifts in population dynamics.
(14:16):
So we know that incomingmigration can put strains on the
water availability for recipientcommunities. So suddenly,
there's more people who need thesame water resources which can
lead to tensions. We know that ahigh ratio of young men often
unemployed young men, issomething that in combination
with water scarcity that tendsto lead to conflict and many
(14:37):
more of such factors. So we areactually today in in research,
relatively good at identifyingwhere conflict over water is
likely to happen. We are ashumankind as a whole. Not so
good, though at actually thenworking on inventing these
conflicts from happening.
David Evans (15:00):
I'd say the first step, I guess we're there. But
we still need to follow throughon actions and be able to figure
out ways to communicate andconvey these issues. I find it
intriguing as many people wouldthink of sharing water as being
more of a engineering issue.
Whereas as you're describing it,it seems to be less of an
(15:21):
engineering issue and more of asocio political issue, and
dealing with large populationsand being able to, to convey
those messages and worktogether. Would you agree with
that?
Unknown (15:35):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, having been
involved in, in negotiations, inwater diplomacy processes, we
quite often face a situationwhere the engineers of one
country would would telleveryone involved in the
negotiation trying to solve theconflict. Well, the impacts of
that dam, for example, arelimited. And actually the dam is
beneficial for the othercountry, because we can, for
(15:57):
example, store water and preventfloods from happening, or we can
generate more electricity thatwe can sell to you at a better
price. Whereas the engineersfrom the other country would be
arguing, well, but we'vecalculated these negative
impacts will have sown so muchloss in agricultural income or
in fish migration will beaffected like this, which is
going to affect our fisherysector like that. So having
(16:18):
these people speak to eachother, and sharing data is often
the first step where we think itproblematic already and where it
gets very political. So it'sabout creating a mutual
understanding, what are thechallenges, what are the impacts
that maybe one country feelsmuch stronger than another
country was concerned much moreabout, then another country,
(16:38):
bringing the the engineers whichis, of course very much
generalizing, it's alsohydrologists, there's also a
list and so on. But let's let'slet's call it the right,
bringing them together to sharedata is often difficult enough,
because they might be interestedin doing so from, let's say,
more scientific perspective. Buta lot of countries attach
national security considerationsto data, for example, to water
(17:01):
data, right. So starting that,that discussion, sharing
information, creating a jointunderstanding of the challenges
of certain river basin or anaquifer might be facing is the
first step, building trust inthe data, right, one country
might often not trust the othercountry when, for example, we
have this in the case ofAfghanistan and Iran. Iran has
(17:24):
been claiming for many years,that the water that Afghanistan
provides as the upstream countryto downstream Iran is not up to
what they're supposed toprovide, according to a really
old and not very functionaltreaty that they have.
Afghanistan at the same time, issaying, Well, we are actually
providing that water. Butclimate change makes it more and
more difficult, because thewater, the river doesn't
(17:46):
actually hold as much water aswe're supposed to provide. And
by the way, we don't havemeasurement stations anyway,
because of the destruction ofthe water. So we don't actually
know how much is flowing acrossthe border. And then you can
imagine what is difficult enoughfor technical people to talk
about, but then bring politicaltensions relations, the overall
regional setting in and thingsget very tricky and ultimately
(18:10):
need the involvement of, ofdiplomats and other people
experienced in disputeresolution and negotiation in
mediation.
David Evans (18:19):
When one country has a completely different new
government, or has been througha war, or is still currently in
a war, water issues need to befront and center. But they don't
necessarily get that respect inthose in those cases. So I guess
you've already kind of hinted alittle bit at it. But could you
just kind of paint a picture ofhow water diplomacy works and
(18:41):
how your team would potentiallybe involved?
Unknown (18:45):
Yeah, I unfortunately can't give you can't give you a
lot of details. By by the natureof the process tends to happen
behind closed doors. But yeah,I'll try to share a few
thoughts. So basically, war todiplomacy, or water, conflict,
prevention and mitigationresolution is about bringing the
(19:08):
different parties that might becommunities or countries
together around the table, afirst step usually being to
create a joint understandingwhat the problem actually is. So
is it that one country wants tobuild a dam and has very good
intentions doing so because itactually needs the electricity.
(19:28):
Like you look at the NileEthiopia, there's a reason why
topia wants to build the grantas a open Renaissance dam,
because it needs electricity topower the country's economic
development to lift people outof poverty, to provide people
like kids who go to school andwho need to study in the evening
to provide them with electricityto do so. So very good reasons
to build the dam. But toreconcile this thinking or to at
(19:50):
least create a mutualunderstanding between this
thinking and the thinking of adownstream country. We go back
to the example of the Nile inthat case, Egypt, where there
are huge fears of are theimpacts in terms of less water
being available that potentiallyaffecting water supply to the
people or affecting agriculturalproduction and as a consequence,
food security of people. Sofirst of all, creating a joint
(20:12):
understanding what a specificissue of contention means for
the different parties, then it'sa lot about trying to share data
and information, make countriesopen up their, their data books
and share information on riverflow on river quality, or
whatever the issue might be. Butthen also, and that's maybe the
(20:36):
key step moving from what weoften have, in the beginning,
moving from an understanding ofthings being a zero sum game. So
what what one party uses fromthe river, the water or the fish
resources in the lake orwhatever it might be, that not
being available to the otherparty, and therefore it being
kind of a cake that if I eat thebigger piece, you will get the
(20:58):
smaller piece right away fromthat and moving towards a
positive sum, game thinkingmoving to it's called a benefit
sharing approach, where the ideais to actually not so much look
into, for example, the volume ofwater that's being shared, you
get 50%, I get 50%. But morelook at what are we actually
doing with our 50%. And maybethere's a way that we can
(21:22):
increase the benefits that weget from our respective 50% or
60 and 40, or whatever the sharemight be, and see if there was a
potential to for example, movefrom hydropower projects that
only generate electricity for anupstream country to multipurpose
projects that might also serve aflood protection purpose for the
downstream country in the US andCanada. On the Columbia River is
(21:46):
a very famous example for wherethat's that's actually
happening, or whether theelectricity that's being
generated can at least be soldto a downstream country at a
favorable price or whetheraquaculture is possible in the
reservoir that's being created.
And of course, also discussingthe mitigation of impacts
because no water project can bebuilt without any environmental
(22:08):
impacts. And these environmentalimpacts obviously, also have
socio economic consequences forpeople depending on the water.
But looking into how theseimpacts can be, can be
mitigated, and we are seeingexamples around the world where
countries have at least triedthat. Some thinking about the
Mekong, for example, where Laosis undergoing a huge and very
(22:29):
ambitious dam developmentprogram on the tributaries to
the Mekong, but also on themainstream. And there was in the
early 2000s, a disagreement overthe first mainstream time that
Laos intended to develop, it'scalled the cyber freedom, where
no environmental impactmitigation measures were
(22:50):
foreseen. But throughnegotiations between the
countries, especially Vietnam,and Cambodia, being particularly
concerned about the impact, andthrough the involvement of a
river basin organization. So aplatform a platform that brings
all the countries together, thedesign of the dam was changed in
the end to account for forsediment flushing needs to make
(23:10):
sure that the sediments that theriver carries that are crucial
for the Mekong Delta areactually making their way
downstream. But also, buildingin fish migration aids to
ensuring that fish, and most ofthe Mekong fish or long distance
migratory fish, that fish areable to migrate up and
downstream passing the dam willsee to what extent these
(23:32):
measures are effective. But Ithink it's at least a really
assign a symbol of how countriestried to come together, and at
least mitigate the impacts thatthe developments in one might
have on the other.
David Evans (23:47):
This is absolutely fascinating. It's funny
listening to you, as you seem tojust casually switch from
continent to continent with allof these different examples of
water diplomacy and action, ordifferent countries working
together as this is somethingthat happens around the globe,
and is very, very prevalent. Itmay only be certain examples, as
(24:07):
you were saying before, thatreally get all of the press and
all of the attention towardsthem. But these transboundary
water issues are reallypressing. And I guess would you
be able to elaborate a littlebit more on on some that have
really worked well. And somethat may be where there's still
a lot of work to be done.
Unknown (24:28):
Yeah, I think there's still some regions around the
world where more work needs tobe done. Also, maybe because the
challenges are bigger there. Imean, if you think about the
Middle East and North Africa, ifyou also think about Central
Asia, the the natural thehydrological, the climatic
situation there is justdifferent so water scarcity is
higher, which obviously makesmakes things a bit more
(24:50):
difficult. Plus, that alsohappens to be a region that has
been struggling with conflictanyways, so very few regional
organizations have been builtand Very few treaties have been
signed that could deal with suchconflict. So if we look at the
Euphrates, Tigris, for example,that is a basin that shared by
Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran,obviously a region that
(25:12):
struggles with all sorts ofsecurity challenges more to just
being one of those. So that isone example that we're we're
still a lot of work needs to bedone in terms of building trust,
building, confidence, buildinginstitutions, and so on. But I
think if we, if we look at theworld as a whole, there are
really a lot of positiveexamples where it was things
(25:34):
I've worked with either conflictover water have been, have been
managed, or where water even hasbeen a source of cooperation.
And I'm going to give you twoexamples, one from Africa and
one from from Europe. If we lookat the most selsun tip of
Africa, so Lesotho, SouthAfrica, Botswana and Namibia,
they share the orange river. Andthere has been a water sharing
(25:58):
arrangement in place betweenLesotho and South Africa, which
are the two upstream countriessince the 1980s. Already, and
then some of the listeners mightremember de zero in Cape Town in
2015. There was a broaderdrought in the in the region
that actually also affectedBotswana a lot, which is the
third country if you think of itin a row from upstream, right.
(26:22):
And what's one I was actuallyreally suffering the reservoir
that supplies water to thecapital gamma Rana was down to
2% of its capacity. So really awow, situation. And obviously,
what Wanda was asking for itsshare of the river. And that is
in a very arid region, somethingthat could have easily led to
conflict and tensions. But thecountry has actually had an
(26:44):
agreement in place since theyear 2000. Already, that clearly
regulates how they cometogether, how they meet
regularly, how they exchangedata, how they address
challenges in the basin jointly.
And they also have a commissionthat brings together countries
to negotiate regularly. So thatallowed for actually addressing
this issue and coming to asolution that will not only now
(27:04):
extend the water sharinginfrastructure that exists to
Botswana, so that water will besupplied to them as well. But
that also includes Namibia andall the preparatory works in the
negotiations and feasibilitystudies. Because as the most
downstream country, of course,you want to make sure that
Namibia is also informed abouteverything that happens
(27:26):
upstream. So right to cause anew conflict. So I think that's
an interesting example for, foraddressing a potential conflict
in a very cooperative manner.
But then, going one stepfurther, there's also some
examples how water has actuallybeen a bridge into peace or a
(27:48):
source of peace. And one exampleI'm thinking of is the Balkans,
the Saba basin, it's a sub basinof the Danube River Basin. So
South Eastern Europe, we'retalking and in the, during the
wars and on the Balkans in the1990s. These countries that
share the Sava river basins offormer Yugoslavia had been at
(28:09):
war with each other. So when thewar ended, and the first peace
talks started, that were verymuch supported by the European
Union, the question came up,what would be an issue that we
can bring the countries togetheron that is not or not too much
contested, and that they wouldinterest to at least come
together sit around the tableand talk and water was
(28:31):
identified as that issue and thestability pact, that the EU
designed for the Balkans,actually very much promoted the
negotiation of a treaty overwater. And the setting up of a
joint commission and water inthe cyber basin was then the
first issue that countriesactually signed a treaty on
beyond the peace treaty itself,and started to cooperate and
(28:53):
with that, not only promotedpeace, but also managed to
address challenges in the river,like there were remnants of war
in the river, that no countrycould have cleared themselves,
but they that was affectingnavigation. So together, they
could address this, they couldaddress flood risks that were a
huge threat to downstreamcountries. But by doing these
technical measures that actuallybuild trust, and they started
(29:16):
cooperating, again, meeting eachother visiting each other in
their respective countries. Sothat really was an entry point
of bridge into cooperation morebroadly. And that was within
less than 10 years between thewar and then cooperating at this
really legally binding level.
David Evans (29:34):
Wow, that's, that's such an interesting case study
on on water being a way to bringus together in a really
conflicted time. That's why Ihave this podcast. It's, I feel
very strongly about it being itbeing that thing that brings us
all together and that we can allsit around the table and talk
about so I have an additionalquestion, Ben. It's okay if you
(29:57):
don't feel comfortable answeringthis one with the rest So
Ukraine conflict that iscurrently going on? What's
happening on the water sharingside of that? Because I assume
there are water basins that areshared between the two
countries. And was this a reasonfor a conflict? Or is there any
part in this that you're awareof?
Unknown (30:17):
Yeah. It's a bit difficult because we are
involved in some work on that,or were until the recent
escalation. So it's a bitdifficult to talk about that.
But yeah, I mean, water has notplayed a role there as in
triggering the conflict. But ofcourse, water is affected by
conflict. I mean, any violentconflict, conflict affects water
affects water infrastructure,water quality water supply to
(30:40):
people. And already with theoccupation of Crimea, there were
some issues coming up with watersupply. from one part to the
other part, which was, still istheoretically one one country
being affected by the divide.
And there have been mutualaccusations by the Russian
occupied parts, saying thatUkraine didn't supply water as
(31:03):
they should have and Ukraine,claiming that the Russian
occupied parts had cut off theflow of a river that would go to
the then Ukrainian part, whichwould be needed to actually
produce the drinking water thatwould then be applied and supply
to the other side again. Yeah,but it's a bit difficult to
comment on that. But yeah, maybejust to add that the effects of
(31:25):
armed conflict on water andwater infrastructure is also
something that we'reincreasingly seeing around the
world, and also Yemen, Iraq, andso on Syria, that that's often
overlooked?
David Evans (31:40):
Well, I guess, in an armed conflict to Del Sol as
a tactic, so access to freshwater and being able to resupply
your troops. And I definitelyhave heard about that. And in
the news, what about looking tothe future? Do you think climate
change will increase conflict orcooperation in regards to
oversharing? Water?
Unknown (32:00):
I think both. I think in the short and medium term,
there is indeed an increasedrisk for conflict due to climate
change. But in the long run, Ithink it's only cooperation
that's going to help us to getout of that. And there is no
other option than thancooperation. So in the short
run, and medium time, of course,climate change is increasing the
(32:21):
likelihood of extreme events,it's increasing very
variability. So water might notbe available at the time in the
place that it used to, in thepast. There might be less water
at a certain time when whencommunities needed. And that can
lead to tensions. I mean, we'reseeing that already. In the
Niger River Basin, an examplethat I that I mentioned earlier,
(32:44):
where the time when the innerNiger Delta is flooded, is
becoming shorter and shorter.
And in previous years, thefarmers were farming and only
ones they had harvested, theherders were actually coming in
with their cattle to graze butbecause that time when the
area's fertile and crops, butalso grass actually grow is
getting shorter. herders arealready coming in, when the
(33:06):
harvest is not done, that leadsto destruction by the cattle and
that has in combination withethnic tensions, religious
tensions, read bad governance,or let's say inexistent
governance, lead to conflictalready now. And I think we'll
be seeing more of this also,because, for example, climate
change in terms of reducinggreenhouse gas emissions, but
(33:27):
also in terms of adapting tothis variability requires the
building of dams, we needstorage capacity, we want to
generate green electricity. Andthat leads countries to build
dams, for good reasons. Butthese dams will necessarily have
negative effects on downstreamcountries, which, again, can can
trigger conflict and tensions ifnot well managed. But in the
(33:48):
end, cooperation will be theonly solution. I mean, conflict
over water resources is is notsomething that works in the long
run. Even if countries were toengage in, let's say, a violent
conflict over water, that's notsomething that country can
maintain for a long time. It'scostly, it has repercussions on
relations on all sorts of othersectors with neighboring
(34:09):
countries. So ultimately, it hasto be cooperation. But the way
there might be a bit tricky.
David Evans (34:19):
Absolutely. For any listener who listens to this
podcast, Ian is just fascinatedby the work in water diplomacy
in these case studies thatyou've mentioned from around the
world. And we'd like to learnmore or would like to get
involved, what would yourecommend to them? And where can
they go to find more informationand how to potentially get
involved?
Unknown (34:39):
There's a lot of resources out there. I mean, the
topic has been addressed,basically everywhere from the UN
Security Council, to nationalgovernments to universities. I
always find it interesting tojust Google any random basin in
the world and read a bit up onwhat has been happening there in
(35:00):
terms of conflict, which issomething we tend to see in the
media, but also cooperation forwhich you have to dig a bit
deeper on pages, right andfollowing on Google, I guess.
But that's always interesting.
But I would also invitelisteners to check out the
websites of Ihe, Delft Institutefor water education in Delft and
the water peace and securitypartnership where you find more
information, but also links thatwill take you further than
David Evans (35:25):
wonderful, wonderful. And my final question
to you, how did you findyourself in this role that
you're in today? What led you tofollowing this career path and
ended up where you are? Now?
Unknown (35:38):
That's a good question.
I'd say it was a combination ofwanting to work in international
relations was international law.
And that probably veryidealistic and naive belief that
I had when I when I graduatedfrom high school that I wanted
to, you know, bring peace to theworld. And at the same time,
really being in love withnature, and really having
(35:59):
admiration for four rivers as akid already playing, building
little dams myself as a kidupstream somewhere, and probably
a small ecosystem downstream. Tobring that together is what
brought me here.
David Evans (36:16):
Oh, that's absolutely beautiful. And I'm so
glad that we have people such asyourself, who are so passionate
and want to bring peace andsecurity to the world and are
working through that throughwater. So thank you for doing
what you're doing.
Unknown (36:32):
Thanks for having me on your podcast.
David Evans (36:39):
Thank you so much for tuning into today's deep
dive episode of the what are wedoing Podcast. Today, we learned
all about water Law andDiplomacy from Dr. Susannah
Schneier. Thank you so much toDr. Susannah, for taking the
time to speak with us. I couldbarely keep track on a map of
where we were talking about.
Throughout this episode, I'mgoing to need a free listen with
a map in front of me and justdraw lines all over the place
(36:59):
because we touched every singlecontinent, and so many places
that I'd never even thought ofwhen I thought of water conflict
and peace and security. So justfascinating. And so glad to have
people that are looking intothis and taking this on, as it's
such a vital role as we moveforward with climate change and
rising conflicts and risingglobal populations as well. So
(37:21):
thank you so much, Dr. Susannah,for taking the time to speak
with us. And this has been anincredible critical talk. For
more information on the IheDelft Institute for water
education. You can find out moreat U N dash i h e dot o RG and
for the water Peace and SecurityPartnership website, you can
(37:45):
find them at water peacesecurity dot o RG definitely
check them out. There's areally, really cool understand
portion where you can actuallytake an online course where
Suzanna will actually take youthrough water peace and
security, how it works and justa much more deeper dive than
this podcast episode. So highly,highly recommend it
Welcome to another deep dive episode of the what
are we doing podcast today we'retalking with Dr. Susannah
Schneier, an associate professorof waterline diplomacy at Ihe,
Delft in the Netherlands. Nowwaterline diplomacy, what does
that really mean? So Dr.
Susannah works with manydifferent countries around the
globe, trying to predict whereconflict will occur, and how we
can resolve these conflictspreemptively, or how we can ease
(00:29):
tensions with water sharingagreements, and other things
like that. So she's working allover the world with many
different countries that shareriver systems and one country
expects more water than theother country is providing to
them, and how we can maintainpeaceful negotiations and shared
agreements, rather than going toarmed conflicts. Now, many of
(00:51):
you may have heard of the wordwater wars, and these are true
things. But Dr. Susannah is partof the team that's trying to
work behind the scenes to makesure that we avoid any of these
types of conflicts movingforward. So yeah, this is a big
topic. But Dr. Suzanne is goingto take us through it step by
step. So sit back, relax, andget ready to learn a little bit
(01:12):
more about water Law andDiplomacy around the globe. How
we can fix all of our transboundary water issues, and how
we can predict where we're goingto see these issues popping up
in the future. Thanks, sir.
(01:34):
Barney, G. nippy, Oh, me,too. Low in zero to marry a
cheap, Chinese way. Why natural?
(02:02):
Water are we doing? And how canwe do better? Your one stop shop
for everything water relatedfrom discussing water, its use
and the organisms that depend onit. For all the global issues
that you really never knew allhad to do with water. I'm your
(02:24):
host, David Evans from theaquatic biosphere project. And I
just want to ask you something.
What are we doing? How can we dobetter?
Welcome to another deep diveepisode of the water. We're
(02:45):
doing podcast. So today we'respeaking with Dr. Susannah
smart. So can you start off withjust introducing yourself a
little bit and let our listenersknow a little bit about
yourself?
Unknown (02:56):
Hi, thanks for having me with you today. My name is
Susanna I work for IgG Delft,which is a UNESCO affiliated
Institute for water education inthe Netherlands. And we're
actually the largest graduatefacility that doesn't graduate
education. So MSc and PhDprograms on water. And when I
(03:16):
say water, I really meananything from hydrology to water
law and from more sociologicalperspectives to engineering. And
in addition to the educationalwork we do, we also do research
projects, we advise governmentsand yeah, develop innovative
solutions to address the variouswater challenges that that the
(03:36):
world is facing.
David Evans (03:38):
Water challenges that the world is facing, you
mean, there's some waterchallenges out there? So I
guess, leading into that, sopart of your role is, as I
understand it, is you lead thewater peace and security
partnership? So let's start offwith what does water have to do
with peace and security?
Unknown (03:56):
Yeah, quite a lot, actually. And much more than
than we typically think whenwhen we think about water, we
think about like rivers,streams, or the water that comes
from the tap. But if we go alittle bit beyond that, we can
we can see that it's very muchrelated to security issues, to
conflict, but also tocooperation and peace. So if we
I mean, knowing that that wateris extremely important for human
(04:19):
lives, livelihoods for economicdevelopment, be it for for food
security, for energy, security,and many, many other sectors. We
know that the fact that water isso important, makes it a highly
valued good by individualpeople, by communities, but also
by entire countries, at the sametime, as water might become more
(04:41):
scarce due to climate change, ordue to the fact that we're
overusing it in many parts ofthe world that can lead to
competition, either becauseindeed, water is becoming
scarcer, or because peopleperceive it as becoming scarcer,
or because the use is justincreasing so more demand has to
be satisfied. by the same amountof water, and that can lead to
(05:03):
situations where there areindividual people or communities
or different ethnic or religiousgroups or different provinces in
a country or even differentcountries see that the way they
want to use water might beincompatible with how a
neighboring community or aneighboring country wants to use
water. And that can can lead toconflict can lead to tensions we
(05:26):
are seeing this, for example, inMali in the inner Niger Delta,
where for some years, there havebeen conflicts, including
violent conflict with quite afew people dying between farmers
herders and fishermen thatcompete over the same increase
and increasingly variable,amount of water from the Niger
River. We're also seeing this,for example, between Ethiopia
(05:48):
and Egypt on the Nile, where thedam building of Ethiopia has
caused severe concerns in Egyptthat fears poor its own water
security, and is thereforeopposing the dam. So we're
seeing that around the worldthat it can lead to tensions to
conflict. But at the same time,and I think that's, that's
important to highlight. These,these conflicts are prominent,
(06:10):
and that's what the media speaksabout. And we've all seen in the
media, these reports on waterwars that might be around the
corner, or water being thesource of wars in the 21st
century. But if we take a bit ofa closer look and look at
empirical evidence from aroundthe world, we see that yes,
there are saltwater conflicts,but they're by far outweighed by
(06:31):
water cooperation. So if we lookat all interactions between
people, between communities,between countries, yes, there
are some conflict of ones andsome that might even involve
violence. But the vast vastmajority is actually cooperative
in nature, which is simplybecause water crosses
boundaries, water just forces usto collaborate, no one can use
(06:53):
water alone. Nobody can developwater water infrastructure
alone. If one does that it canhave negative repercussions on
for example, neighborlyrelations with with other
countries. So ultimately, in thelong run, water forces us to
cooperate. So it is very muchlinked to conflict insecurity,
but also to peace.
David Evans (07:14):
Yeah, it's the thing that brings us all
together. It can also make you alittle jealous of someone else
who's next door and who'sinflicting on your ability and
right to access that water. Sobefore this interview, I kept
reading this word waterdiplomacy. Could you tell us a
little bit about what waterdiplomacy might be and and how
it's used?
Unknown (07:36):
What diplomacy is actually quite a quite a new
term, but not necessarily a newphenomenon. It basically refers
to the use of diplomatic soforeign policy means in order to
address conflicts or potentialconflicts over water mainly
between different countries. Andthe idea behind that, and the
(07:56):
reason why suddenly diplomatsand foreign policymakers become
involved in something that'sotherwise perceived as very
technical and something that'sdealt with by engineers, by data
people, by people from Ministryof Water Environment, why
diplomats become involved, isbecause of the risk that water
tensions, disagreement overwater spill over into more broad
(08:18):
relations between countries.
Right, we've seen adeterioration of relations, for
example, between Tajikistan andUzbekistan, when in 2000 10s,
they were in a disagreement overRakuen dam, a large dam, in
fact, the world's highest damthat Tillerson is building on
the on the river that thecountry's share that had
repercussions on traderelations, political relations,
remittances, and other things.
(08:42):
And in order to prevent suchconflicts from escalating and
ensure that broader bilateralrelations or even regional
stability are not affected,diplomats get get involved in
these processes that areotherwise very technical, but
that has inspired of the newnessof the word water diplomacy
actually happened since a longtime already. I mean, we have
examples from the 1950s 1960salready where diplomats
(09:05):
negotiated over water that theyshared with neighboring
countries.
David Evans (09:10):
I guess there was a prominent use of this would be
for freshwater resources such asrivers, but Would that also
extend as well to fishing rightsand rights to access water in in
oceans and also groundwater? Arethere groundwater diplomacy
issues that extend beyondborders as well?
Unknown (09:29):
Absolutely, I mean, rivers have been quite prominent
in in the news, if we thinkabout the Nile, if we think
about the so diarrhea, if wethink about the rivers shared by
Afghanistan and Iran, theHammond and the hurry road, but
you also equally have tensionsover lakes, they're just a bit
different because there's notthis upstream downstream
(09:52):
dynamic. So there's not such agreat distribution of access or
possibly as a power that comeswith it when upstream state can
do so. something that affectsthe downstream state and the
logic kind of flows downstream.
However, there have beenconflicts, disagreements,
tensions over over lakes aswell. I'm thinking of Lake
Titicaca and Latin America, LakeVictoria and East Africa has
(10:13):
also seen disagreementsincluding overfishing actually
and overfishing by by localpopulations. We're also seeing
that over regional seas and theoceans, although the legal and
institutional framework thatdeals with that is a bit
different from the freshwaterone. And we're also seeing an
increasingly acknowledging thisalso overground water. For a
(10:35):
long time, the attention hasonly been on surface water
simply because knowledge ofgroundwater was very limited. We
know that there are more than310 transboundary rivers that
are shared between countriesaround the world. But only
recently, we also found out thatthere are at least more than 300
transboundary aquifers as well,that are shared between rivers.
So very slowly, this is pickingup and we've seen agreements
(10:59):
between countries being signedover shared aquifers such as
over the DC aquifer betweenJordan and Saudi Arabia,
recently, but also the Guaraniaquifer in Latin America, where
countries have recently cometogether and signed a legally
binding agreement between themhow to manage this this shared
resource.
David Evans (11:18):
Groundwater resource sharing is, it's hard
enough to share a river whereyou can actually see the water
being held back by a dam orbeing being removed from the
system. Whereas groundwater isstill in its infancy on on how
we can actually manage thatresource. What are some of the
strategies that we can use topredict and preemptively deal
(11:39):
with water based conflicts whenthey arise?
Unknown (11:43):
Yeah, I think it's indeed important to identify
these conflicts are the risk forupcoming conflict early in the
process. And research over thepast decades has really helped
us to identify some of the keyparameters that determine
whether conflict might arisewhat the extent of the conflict
will be, and so on. And it'sinteresting to notice there that
(12:05):
the link between water or waterrelated risks such as like water
scarcity, drought or a flood, onthe one hand, and then a
conflict or disagreement, on theother hand, is not very
straightforward. In fact, thelink between water and conflict
is determined by tons of what wewould call intervening factors.
(12:26):
So other factors that determinewhether for example, a, a sudden
water scarcity event actuallyleads to conflict between
villages, or even betweencountries. And these intervening
factors are typically related tothe way we manage water
resources. So research doneactually by the by Oregon State
(12:46):
University in the US, found outand could confirm that it is not
so much the rate of change thathappens in for example, a river
basin. So the hydrologicalenvironmental or climate change
that leads to conflict, but theability or the lack thereof, of
a government and institutionsfrom the local to the national
(13:08):
international level, to dealwith such change. But this is
also good news, because itactually tells us that we can do
something right, it's kind ofdifficult to address climate
change to deal with decreasingwater availability. But we can
deal with how we manage water.
So we can we can buildinstitutions. And that going one
step back again, actually alsohelps us identify where conflict
(13:32):
is likely to happen. So it'slikely to happen not necessarily
only whether it's, for example,a high rate of scarcity, but
more where there's insufficientgovernment capacity to deal with
things with insufficientfinancial capacity to, for
example, offset negative impactson farmers, for example, if
there's if there's droughts,it's related to a lack of
(13:53):
dispute resolution mechanisms,either formal or informal. So
places where people that competethat fight over water can
actually go to and solve theconflict peacefully. It's also
related to more socio economicfactors. Population growth, and
increasing demand by economicsectors are by people also
shifts in population dynamics.
(14:16):
So we know that incomingmigration can put strains on the
water availability for recipientcommunities. So suddenly,
there's more people who need thesame water resources which can
lead to tensions. We know that ahigh ratio of young men often
unemployed young men, issomething that in combination
with water scarcity that tendsto lead to conflict and many
(14:37):
more of such factors. So we areactually today in in research,
relatively good at identifyingwhere conflict over water is
likely to happen. We are ashumankind as a whole. Not so
good, though at actually thenworking on inventing these
conflicts from happening.
David Evans (15:00):
I'd say the first step, I guess we're there. But
we still need to follow throughon actions and be able to figure
out ways to communicate andconvey these issues. I find it
intriguing as many people wouldthink of sharing water as being
more of a engineering issue.
Whereas as you're describing it,it seems to be less of an
(15:21):
engineering issue and more of asocio political issue, and
dealing with large populationsand being able to, to convey
those messages and worktogether. Would you agree with
that?
Unknown (15:35):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, having been
involved in, in negotiations, inwater diplomacy processes, we
quite often face a situationwhere the engineers of one
country would would telleveryone involved in the
negotiation trying to solve theconflict. Well, the impacts of
that dam, for example, arelimited. And actually the dam is
beneficial for the othercountry, because we can, for
(15:57):
example, store water and preventfloods from happening, or we can
generate more electricity thatwe can sell to you at a better
price. Whereas the engineersfrom the other country would be
arguing, well, but we'vecalculated these negative
impacts will have sown so muchloss in agricultural income or
in fish migration will beaffected like this, which is
going to affect our fisherysector like that. So having
(16:18):
these people speak to eachother, and sharing data is often
the first step where we think itproblematic already and where it
gets very political. So it'sabout creating a mutual
understanding, what are thechallenges, what are the impacts
that maybe one country feelsmuch stronger than another
country was concerned much moreabout, then another country,
(16:38):
bringing the the engineers whichis, of course very much
generalizing, it's alsohydrologists, there's also a
list and so on. But let's let'slet's call it the right,
bringing them together to sharedata is often difficult enough,
because they might be interestedin doing so from, let's say,
more scientific perspective. Buta lot of countries attach
national security considerationsto data, for example, to water
(17:01):
data, right. So starting that,that discussion, sharing
information, creating a jointunderstanding of the challenges
of certain river basin or anaquifer might be facing is the
first step, building trust inthe data, right, one country
might often not trust the othercountry when, for example, we
have this in the case ofAfghanistan and Iran. Iran has
(17:24):
been claiming for many years,that the water that Afghanistan
provides as the upstream countryto downstream Iran is not up to
what they're supposed toprovide, according to a really
old and not very functionaltreaty that they have.
Afghanistan at the same time, issaying, Well, we are actually
providing that water. Butclimate change makes it more and
more difficult, because thewater, the river doesn't
(17:46):
actually hold as much water aswe're supposed to provide. And
by the way, we don't havemeasurement stations anyway,
because of the destruction ofthe water. So we don't actually
know how much is flowing acrossthe border. And then you can
imagine what is difficult enoughfor technical people to talk
about, but then bring politicaltensions relations, the overall
regional setting in and thingsget very tricky and ultimately
(18:10):
need the involvement of, ofdiplomats and other people
experienced in disputeresolution and negotiation in
mediation.
David Evans (18:19):
When one country has a completely different new
government, or has been througha war, or is still currently in
a war, water issues need to befront and center. But they don't
necessarily get that respect inthose in those cases. So I guess
you've already kind of hinted alittle bit at it. But could you
just kind of paint a picture ofhow water diplomacy works and
(18:41):
how your team would potentiallybe involved?
Unknown (18:45):
Yeah, I unfortunately can't give you can't give you a
lot of details. By by the natureof the process tends to happen
behind closed doors. But yeah,I'll try to share a few
thoughts. So basically, war todiplomacy, or water, conflict,
prevention and mitigationresolution is about bringing the
(19:08):
different parties that might becommunities or countries
together around the table, afirst step usually being to
create a joint understandingwhat the problem actually is. So
is it that one country wants tobuild a dam and has very good
intentions doing so because itactually needs the electricity.
(19:28):
Like you look at the NileEthiopia, there's a reason why
topia wants to build the grantas a open Renaissance dam,
because it needs electricity topower the country's economic
development to lift people outof poverty, to provide people
like kids who go to school andwho need to study in the evening
to provide them with electricityto do so. So very good reasons
to build the dam. But toreconcile this thinking or to at
(19:50):
least create a mutualunderstanding between this
thinking and the thinking of adownstream country. We go back
to the example of the Nile inthat case, Egypt, where there
are huge fears of are theimpacts in terms of less water
being available that potentiallyaffecting water supply to the
people or affecting agriculturalproduction and as a consequence,
food security of people. Sofirst of all, creating a joint
(20:12):
understanding what a specificissue of contention means for
the different parties, then it'sa lot about trying to share data
and information, make countriesopen up their, their data books
and share information on riverflow on river quality, or
whatever the issue might be. Butthen also, and that's maybe the
(20:36):
key step moving from what weoften have, in the beginning,
moving from an understanding ofthings being a zero sum game. So
what what one party uses fromthe river, the water or the fish
resources in the lake orwhatever it might be, that not
being available to the otherparty, and therefore it being
kind of a cake that if I eat thebigger piece, you will get the
(20:58):
smaller piece right away fromthat and moving towards a
positive sum, game thinkingmoving to it's called a benefit
sharing approach, where the ideais to actually not so much look
into, for example, the volume ofwater that's being shared, you
get 50%, I get 50%. But morelook at what are we actually
doing with our 50%. And maybethere's a way that we can
(21:22):
increase the benefits that weget from our respective 50% or
60 and 40, or whatever the sharemight be, and see if there was a
potential to for example, movefrom hydropower projects that
only generate electricity for anupstream country to multipurpose
projects that might also serve aflood protection purpose for the
downstream country in the US andCanada. On the Columbia River is
(21:46):
a very famous example for wherethat's that's actually
happening, or whether theelectricity that's being
generated can at least be soldto a downstream country at a
favorable price or whetheraquaculture is possible in the
reservoir that's being created.
And of course, also discussingthe mitigation of impacts
because no water project can bebuilt without any environmental
(22:08):
impacts. And these environmentalimpacts obviously, also have
socio economic consequences forpeople depending on the water.
But looking into how theseimpacts can be, can be
mitigated, and we are seeingexamples around the world where
countries have at least triedthat. Some thinking about the
Mekong, for example, where Laosis undergoing a huge and very
(22:29):
ambitious dam developmentprogram on the tributaries to
the Mekong, but also on themainstream. And there was in the
early 2000s, a disagreement overthe first mainstream time that
Laos intended to develop, it'scalled the cyber freedom, where
no environmental impactmitigation measures were
(22:50):
foreseen. But throughnegotiations between the
countries, especially Vietnam,and Cambodia, being particularly
concerned about the impact, andthrough the involvement of a
river basin organization. So aplatform a platform that brings
all the countries together, thedesign of the dam was changed in
the end to account for forsediment flushing needs to make
(23:10):
sure that the sediments that theriver carries that are crucial
for the Mekong Delta areactually making their way
downstream. But also, buildingin fish migration aids to
ensuring that fish, and most ofthe Mekong fish or long distance
migratory fish, that fish areable to migrate up and
downstream passing the dam willsee to what extent these
(23:32):
measures are effective. But Ithink it's at least a really
assign a symbol of how countriestried to come together, and at
least mitigate the impacts thatthe developments in one might
have on the other.
David Evans (23:47):
This is absolutely fascinating. It's funny
listening to you, as you seem tojust casually switch from
continent to continent with allof these different examples of
water diplomacy and action, ordifferent countries working
together as this is somethingthat happens around the globe,
and is very, very prevalent. Itmay only be certain examples, as
(24:07):
you were saying before, thatreally get all of the press and
all of the attention towardsthem. But these transboundary
water issues are reallypressing. And I guess would you
be able to elaborate a littlebit more on on some that have
really worked well. And somethat may be where there's still
a lot of work to be done.
Unknown (24:28):
Yeah, I think there's still some regions around the
world where more work needs tobe done. Also, maybe because the
challenges are bigger there. Imean, if you think about the
Middle East and North Africa, ifyou also think about Central
Asia, the the natural thehydrological, the climatic
situation there is justdifferent so water scarcity is
higher, which obviously makesmakes things a bit more
(24:50):
difficult. Plus, that alsohappens to be a region that has
been struggling with conflictanyways, so very few regional
organizations have been builtand Very few treaties have been
signed that could deal with suchconflict. So if we look at the
Euphrates, Tigris, for example,that is a basin that shared by
Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran,obviously a region that
(25:12):
struggles with all sorts ofsecurity challenges more to just
being one of those. So that isone example that we're we're
still a lot of work needs to bedone in terms of building trust,
building, confidence, buildinginstitutions, and so on. But I
think if we, if we look at theworld as a whole, there are
really a lot of positiveexamples where it was things
(25:34):
I've worked with either conflictover water have been, have been
managed, or where water even hasbeen a source of cooperation.
And I'm going to give you twoexamples, one from Africa and
one from from Europe. If we lookat the most selsun tip of
Africa, so Lesotho, SouthAfrica, Botswana and Namibia,
they share the orange river. Andthere has been a water sharing
(25:58):
arrangement in place betweenLesotho and South Africa, which
are the two upstream countriessince the 1980s. Already, and
then some of the listeners mightremember de zero in Cape Town in
2015. There was a broaderdrought in the in the region
that actually also affectedBotswana a lot, which is the
third country if you think of itin a row from upstream, right.
(26:22):
And what's one I was actuallyreally suffering the reservoir
that supplies water to thecapital gamma Rana was down to
2% of its capacity. So really awow, situation. And obviously,
what Wanda was asking for itsshare of the river. And that is
in a very arid region, somethingthat could have easily led to
conflict and tensions. But thecountry has actually had an
(26:44):
agreement in place since theyear 2000. Already, that clearly
regulates how they cometogether, how they meet
regularly, how they exchangedata, how they address
challenges in the basin jointly.
And they also have a commissionthat brings together countries
to negotiate regularly. So thatallowed for actually addressing
this issue and coming to asolution that will not only now
(27:04):
extend the water sharinginfrastructure that exists to
Botswana, so that water will besupplied to them as well. But
that also includes Namibia andall the preparatory works in the
negotiations and feasibilitystudies. Because as the most
downstream country, of course,you want to make sure that
Namibia is also informed abouteverything that happens
(27:26):
upstream. So right to cause anew conflict. So I think that's
an interesting example for, foraddressing a potential conflict
in a very cooperative manner.
But then, going one stepfurther, there's also some
examples how water has actuallybeen a bridge into peace or a
(27:48):
source of peace. And one exampleI'm thinking of is the Balkans,
the Saba basin, it's a sub basinof the Danube River Basin. So
South Eastern Europe, we'retalking and in the, during the
wars and on the Balkans in the1990s. These countries that
share the Sava river basins offormer Yugoslavia had been at
(28:09):
war with each other. So when thewar ended, and the first peace
talks started, that were verymuch supported by the European
Union, the question came up,what would be an issue that we
can bring the countries togetheron that is not or not too much
contested, and that they wouldinterest to at least come
together sit around the tableand talk and water was
(28:31):
identified as that issue and thestability pact, that the EU
designed for the Balkans,actually very much promoted the
negotiation of a treaty overwater. And the setting up of a
joint commission and water inthe cyber basin was then the
first issue that countriesactually signed a treaty on
beyond the peace treaty itself,and started to cooperate and
(28:53):
with that, not only promotedpeace, but also managed to
address challenges in the river,like there were remnants of war
in the river, that no countrycould have cleared themselves,
but they that was affectingnavigation. So together, they
could address this, they couldaddress flood risks that were a
huge threat to downstreamcountries. But by doing these
technical measures that actuallybuild trust, and they started
(29:16):
cooperating, again, meeting eachother visiting each other in
their respective countries. Sothat really was an entry point
of bridge into cooperation morebroadly. And that was within
less than 10 years between thewar and then cooperating at this
really legally binding level.
David Evans (29:34):
Wow, that's, that's such an interesting case study
on on water being a way to bringus together in a really
conflicted time. That's why Ihave this podcast. It's, I feel
very strongly about it being itbeing that thing that brings us
all together and that we can allsit around the table and talk
about so I have an additionalquestion, Ben. It's okay if you
(29:57):
don't feel comfortable answeringthis one with the rest So
Ukraine conflict that iscurrently going on? What's
happening on the water sharingside of that? Because I assume
there are water basins that areshared between the two
countries. And was this a reasonfor a conflict? Or is there any
part in this that you're awareof?
Unknown (30:17):
Yeah. It's a bit difficult because we are
involved in some work on that,or were until the recent
escalation. So it's a bitdifficult to talk about that.
But yeah, I mean, water has notplayed a role there as in
triggering the conflict. But ofcourse, water is affected by
conflict. I mean, any violentconflict, conflict affects water
affects water infrastructure,water quality water supply to
(30:40):
people. And already with theoccupation of Crimea, there were
some issues coming up with watersupply. from one part to the
other part, which was, still istheoretically one one country
being affected by the divide.
And there have been mutualaccusations by the Russian
occupied parts, saying thatUkraine didn't supply water as
(31:03):
they should have and Ukraine,claiming that the Russian
occupied parts had cut off theflow of a river that would go to
the then Ukrainian part, whichwould be needed to actually
produce the drinking water thatwould then be applied and supply
to the other side again. Yeah,but it's a bit difficult to
comment on that. But yeah, maybejust to add that the effects of
(31:25):
armed conflict on water andwater infrastructure is also
something that we'reincreasingly seeing around the
world, and also Yemen, Iraq, andso on Syria, that that's often
overlooked?
David Evans (31:40):
Well, I guess, in an armed conflict to Del Sol as
a tactic, so access to freshwater and being able to resupply
your troops. And I definitelyhave heard about that. And in
the news, what about looking tothe future? Do you think climate
change will increase conflict orcooperation in regards to
oversharing? Water?
Unknown (32:00):
I think both. I think in the short and medium term,
there is indeed an increasedrisk for conflict due to climate
change. But in the long run, Ithink it's only cooperation
that's going to help us to getout of that. And there is no
other option than thancooperation. So in the short
run, and medium time, of course,climate change is increasing the
(32:21):
likelihood of extreme events,it's increasing very
variability. So water might notbe available at the time in the
place that it used to, in thepast. There might be less water
at a certain time when whencommunities needed. And that can
lead to tensions. I mean, we'reseeing that already. In the
Niger River Basin, an examplethat I that I mentioned earlier,
(32:44):
where the time when the innerNiger Delta is flooded, is
becoming shorter and shorter.
And in previous years, thefarmers were farming and only
ones they had harvested, theherders were actually coming in
with their cattle to graze butbecause that time when the
area's fertile and crops, butalso grass actually grow is
getting shorter. herders arealready coming in, when the
(33:06):
harvest is not done, that leadsto destruction by the cattle and
that has in combination withethnic tensions, religious
tensions, read bad governance,or let's say inexistent
governance, lead to conflictalready now. And I think we'll
be seeing more of this also,because, for example, climate
change in terms of reducinggreenhouse gas emissions, but
(33:27):
also in terms of adapting tothis variability requires the
building of dams, we needstorage capacity, we want to
generate green electricity. Andthat leads countries to build
dams, for good reasons. Butthese dams will necessarily have
negative effects on downstreamcountries, which, again, can can
trigger conflict and tensions ifnot well managed. But in the
(33:48):
end, cooperation will be theonly solution. I mean, conflict
over water resources is is notsomething that works in the long
run. Even if countries were toengage in, let's say, a violent
conflict over water, that's notsomething that country can
maintain for a long time. It'scostly, it has repercussions on
relations on all sorts of othersectors with neighboring
(34:09):
countries. So ultimately, it hasto be cooperation. But the way
there might be a bit tricky.
David Evans (34:19):
Absolutely. For any listener who listens to this
podcast, Ian is just fascinatedby the work in water diplomacy
in these case studies thatyou've mentioned from around the
world. And we'd like to learnmore or would like to get
involved, what would yourecommend to them? And where can
they go to find more informationand how to potentially get
involved?
Unknown (34:39):
There's a lot of resources out there. I mean, the
topic has been addressed,basically everywhere from the UN
Security Council, to nationalgovernments to universities. I
always find it interesting tojust Google any random basin in
the world and read a bit up onwhat has been happening there in
(35:00):
terms of conflict, which issomething we tend to see in the
media, but also cooperation forwhich you have to dig a bit
deeper on pages, right andfollowing on Google, I guess.
But that's always interesting.
But I would also invitelisteners to check out the
websites of Ihe, Delft Institutefor water education in Delft and
the water peace and securitypartnership where you find more
information, but also links thatwill take you further than
David Evans (35:25):
wonderful, wonderful. And my final question
to you, how did you findyourself in this role that
you're in today? What led you tofollowing this career path and
ended up where you are? Now?
Unknown (35:38):
That's a good question.
I'd say it was a combination ofwanting to work in international
relations was international law.
And that probably veryidealistic and naive belief that
I had when I when I graduatedfrom high school that I wanted
to, you know, bring peace to theworld. And at the same time,
really being in love withnature, and really having
(35:59):
admiration for four rivers as akid already playing, building
little dams myself as a kidupstream somewhere, and probably
a small ecosystem downstream. Tobring that together is what
brought me here.
David Evans (36:16):
Oh, that's absolutely beautiful. And I'm so
glad that we have people such asyourself, who are so passionate
and want to bring peace andsecurity to the world and are
working through that throughwater. So thank you for doing
what you're doing.
Unknown (36:32):
Thanks for having me on your podcast.
David Evans (36:39):
Thank you so much for tuning into today's deep
dive episode of the what are wedoing Podcast. Today, we learned
all about water Law andDiplomacy from Dr. Susannah
Schneier. Thank you so much toDr. Susannah, for taking the
time to speak with us. I couldbarely keep track on a map of
where we were talking about.
Throughout this episode, I'mgoing to need a free listen with
a map in front of me and justdraw lines all over the place
(36:59):
because we touched every singlecontinent, and so many places
that I'd never even thought ofwhen I thought of water conflict
and peace and security. So justfascinating. And so glad to have
people that are looking intothis and taking this on, as it's
such a vital role as we moveforward with climate change and
rising conflicts and risingglobal populations as well. So
(37:21):
thank you so much, Dr. Susannah,for taking the time to speak
with us. And this has been anincredible critical talk. For
more information on the IheDelft Institute for water
education. You can find out moreat U N dash i h e dot o RG and
for the water Peace and SecurityPartnership website, you can
(37:45):
find them at water peacesecurity dot o RG definitely
check them out. There's areally, really cool understand
portion where you can actuallytake an online course where
Suzanna will actually take youthrough water peace and
security, how it works and justa much more deeper dive than
this podcast episode. So highly,highly recommend it
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