October 12, 2024 • 44 mins
The History and Ecosystem Impact of Sea Otters on Vancouver Island
The podcast episode explores the history and ecological impact of sea otters on the west coast of Canada, particularly near Vancouver Island. Hosted by David Evans of the Aquatic Biosphere Project, the episode features Linda Nichol from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans who discusses the reintroduction of sea otters from Alaska after they were lost from the region. The conversation covers the ecological role of sea otters, including their effect on kelp forests through the control of sea urchins, and the broader ecosystem changes resulting from their return. The challenges of coexistence with local fisheries and Indigenous communities are addressed, along with the overall benefits to marine biodiversity, ecotourism, and carbon sequestration. The episode also discusses broader topics related to marine conservation and ocean noise pollution affecting cetaceans, emphasizing the complex interactions within marine ecosystems.
Sea Otters:
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00:00 Introduction to Sea Otters
00:40 Reintroduction Efforts and Challenges
01:44 Podcast Introduction and Guest Introduction
03:25 History of Sea Otters on the West Coast
11:22 Ecological Role of Sea Otters
21:48 Impact on Local Communities and Fisheries
29:26 Effects of Human Activity and Conservation Efforts
43:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave Evans (00:19):
Sea otters are one of the most iconic species off
of the west coast of NorthAmerica.
They're always found in kelpforests, tied up with kelp,
sleeping up on top of thesurface, and then diving down to
get their food from the bottom.
We actually lost sea otters offthe coast of Vancouver Island in
Canada's west coast.
We had to reintroduce them fromAlaska.
(00:40):
And today, we're talking withLinda Nickel from the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans allabout the reintroduction, what's
currently happening, and whythey can have problems with
fisheries So, sit back and relaxand get ready to learn a little
bit more about sea otters andwhat is happening to them right
now in Canada.
(01:00):
Water Fox Bunny Ji Nipi EarthWater Water Dragon Drinking
(01:25):
Women Two.
Robert, Mary, he Y.
Water we doing and how can we dobetter?
Your one stop shop foreverything water related.
(01:48):
From discussing water, its use,and the organisms that depend on
it.
For all the global issues thatyou really never knew all had to
do with water.
I'm your host David Evans fromthe Aquatic Biosphere Project,
and I just want to ask yousomething.
What are we doing, and how canwe do better?
(02:17):
=So welcome to another deep diveepisode of the What Are We Doing
podcast.
So today I'm so excited to learnall about sea otters, Vancouver
Island, and talk with oneexperts in the field.
I'm speaking with Linda Nickeltoday.
Linda, do you mind justintroducing yourself?
And can you tell us a little bitabout what you do?
(02:38):
Yes, my name is Linda Nichol andI'm a research biologist at the
Pacific Biological Station inNanaimo.
So I work for Fisheries andOceans Canada and our focus in
our group is aroundconservation.
So it's research that is insupport of conservation.
So often, if we want to conservespecies, we need to understand
(03:00):
what, their needs are in termsof habitat or food, or what are
the threats to them from humanactivities.
And if we can understand thesethings.
And then we have a better chanceof making management decisions
to support the recovery.
Awesome.
So many Canadians, we don't livenear the ocean and I can just
see out your window that itlooks like you're in a beautiful
(03:21):
place and wow, definitelyjealous whether I have snow
still outside of my window here.
But to get us started With yourfocus being on sea otters and
other marine mammals can youtell us a little bit about the
history of sea otters off thewest coast of Canada?
Yeah, well, I, was thinkingabout that question.
I mean, it's, it can be broad orit can be narrow.
How far back do we go?
I'll sort of start in the middleand then I'll jump around a
(03:44):
little bit.
So, we often think about...
The sea otter history is markedby the beginning of the maritime
fur trade, which was in the mid1700s.
And we think about how manyotters were there before that
fur trade.
And so Essentially, what isthought is that prior to the mid
(04:05):
1700s, there was probably it's avery crude estimate, but 150,
000 sea otters that ranged alongcoastal areas from northern
Japan all the way around thetops of northern Russia, the
Commander and Curl Islands, theAleutian Islands, down the
Alaskan coast, B.
C., What is Washington, Oregon,California, and right to
(04:28):
northern Mexico.
that is the full range of thisspecies.
The sea otter, well, it's,nearest ancestor first emerged
in the North Pacific periodabout 2 million years ago.
And so they've been here for along time nearshore habitat.
And we know that it's certainthat the indigenous peoples
(04:52):
who've lived along these coastalareas have hunted sea otters for
their pelts and traded theirpelts.
Prior to the fur trade, so therewas a existence of humans and
these existence of ottersthroughout these areas.
So then along came first theRussians in the Bering and
Commander Islands, and in theearly 1700s, 1740, and they
(05:14):
found sea otters and began tohunt them.
And then later on, famous tripof Captain Cook, he arrived on
Nook Island in 1778.
So quite a long time ago, but hesailed off in a ship, a ship
that probably wasn't as big aswe imagined.
And his his crew traded with theMowachat people who lived at
(05:37):
Yukon, at their village, becausethat's where they were.
He traded for a relatively smallnumber of pelts, these
beautiful, luxurious pelts.
And off they went.
And they sailed away across thePacific to China, to Macau,
where they sold them for thisextraordinary sum of money.
They couldn't believe how muchthey could get for these.
And so that was the beginning ofthis trade.
(05:59):
And so following that, tradingvessels, European and American
trading vessels, would come tothe coast annually every year.
And they'd spend months on thecoast trading with the
Indigenous people to acquirethese pelts from them.
That the Indigenous people wouldhave been hunting, presumably
through the winter inanticipation of their arrival.
And so this went on for quite awhile, but not as long as you
(06:22):
might think.
And so by the mid 1800s, so lessthan a hundred years later, this
trade was over.
Wow.
And the reason it was over wasbecause it wasn't really worth
the traders coming to the coastanymore because they weren't
going to be getting very manysea otter pelts.
So that sort of was the end ofthat fur trade.
They were still hunted, butthere wasn't a big trade.
And in jumping ahead to 1911,which is another date when there
(06:47):
was a important fur seal treatythat was signed that had just a
little bit to do with otters.
Otters aren't fur seals.
But at that time, it's recordedthat there were probably only 1,
000 to 2, 000 otters left.
In the world so left in thePacific.
So we've gone from hundreds ofthousands to 1000 to 2000
(07:10):
animals and they were scatteredin 13 little remnant colonies.
It's super remote places, likein the Aleutian Islands.
One little one at the north endof Haida Gwaii, and one in
California, and one in Mexico.
At any rate, these coloniesnumbered 10 to 100 animals, so
really small.
And they continued to be hunted,so that the one in Haida Gwaii,
(07:33):
this little tiny one that wasknown to have been there in
1911, was pretty much gone by1920.
So that was the end of seaotters in B.
C., and ironically or not seaotters were first protected in
British Columbia by what wasthen the B.
C.
Wildlife Act, and it came intoeffect in 1931.
but ironically, The last knownsea otter that had been killed,
(07:57):
there's a couple of records, oneis 1929 and one is 1931, so we
didn't really get a chance toprotect the sea otters in BC
before they were gone.
So we consider them, after that,to be gone, and In terms of
whatever role they played in theecosystem on the BC coast,
they've really been gone sincethe mid 1800s in terms of having
(08:19):
their ecological role, which wecan talk about next.
So that was it, all quiet on thecoast, no sea otters, until the
1960s.
So now we jump ahead 30 yearsfrom that BC Wildlife Act, or 50
years from that First SealTreaty, and well over 100 years.
From the end of the fur tradeand what happened was the
(08:42):
Americans were doing nucleartesting at Amchitka in the
Aleutian Islands, and it wasgoing to affect wildlife,
including sea otters.
So there was sort of acatalyzed, This idea with
American biologists to move someof the otters out of that area,
Amchitka, and where could theybe relocated?
And with the idea ofreintroducing them to places
where they had not recoveredyet.
(09:03):
Remember, there was just thosetiny colonies.
So, the Canadian biologists wereapproached, and it was deemed a
good idea.
And so as part of thatreintroduction, animals were
reintroduced to Checklissett Bayon the west coast of Vancouver
Island, one spot.
There were three reintroductionefforts.
for a total of 89 animals.
and many less than half of thoseeventually survived.
(09:26):
And there were alsoreintroductions in Washington
and one in Oregon that didn'twork.
And so that was the start of ourcurrent sea otter population as
best we know.
And those sea otters, The onesthat survived, reproduced, and
we now, we now, as of today ourbest, our most recent population
(09:47):
estimate, we have just under Wehave probably at least 8, 000
sea otters on the BC coast.
And so largely from that, asmuch as we know from that
reintroduction.
And the population still hashabitat to expand into.
And we also know that the whole,so they haven't occupied their
full range in the North Pacific.
(10:08):
There's still places where theydon't exist.
But the population is thought tobe something like 125, 000
animals.
throughout the range althoughthere have been some major
declines in the AleutianIslands.
So that is the history of seaotters on the west coast of
Vancouver Island and the NorthPacific.
Wow.
Yeah, you did the, you did theentire ring there.
(10:28):
That's wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, it's such aninteresting story in history of
not only how the first contactwith Captain Cook and how that
really Begot the entiresituation and has led to where
we are today and thisreintroduction effort and It's
astounding to me of hearing evenif 89 animals survived that to
(10:53):
grow to 8, 000 is incredible andwith I mean, there's other
examples from the biology worldof really assisted repopulation
of efforts but basically it's, Imean, my interpretation of what
you said is just letting theseanimals free and letting them to
their own devices, and thishappened naturally, and so
That's quite different thanmaternal penning of, caribou or,
(11:17):
other such, such types ofreintroduction efforts.
So that's really, interesting tohear.
You alluded as well to the roleof sea otters and how they play
in the aquatic ecosystem.
So how has.
What role do they fill, and howhas their reintroduction changed
the waters off of VancouverIsland from them not being
(11:37):
present for so long?
Well, so, there's a few thingspretty unique about sea otters
that plays into this part of thestory.
Sea otters are, they're amustelid, so they're an otter,
and they're the only one thatlives in the marine environment.
They live their entire lives.
They've, evolved to occupy thatnear shore niche along the
coast.
They, stay in the oceanthroughout their lives.
(11:59):
They never come ashore but theydon't have a blubber layer.
So all other marine mammals havea nice thick blubber layer which
keeps them warm like a wetsuit.
So these guys don't have that.
So what they've evolved is thisincredibly dense fur that has
these sort of waterproofingouter hairs and then this very
dense under fur.
Where air is captured and thatair layer keeps them warm and
(12:22):
they have to keep that fur superclean.
But that's the luxurious furthat got them in trouble in the
first place.
But it's what keeps them warm.
But the other piece of whatkeeps these relatively small
animals warm is having a veryhigh metabolic rate.
That means your internalfurnace.
So it's what keeps you warm.
We have a metabolism thatgenerates heat and that's how we
(12:44):
maintain our body temperature.
So they have a very highmetabolic rate.
They consume, so they need to,they're generating a lot of heat
and they're consuming theircalories to produce that heat.
And what that means is that theyneed to eat a lot.
So, a sea otter has a metabolismthat's over twice that of a
mammal of a comparable size onland.
(13:06):
And it means that they need toeat 20 30 percent of their body
weight in food every day.
So you could just imagine, youcould do the math for yourself.
Hmm, how many sandwiches wouldthat be?
That would be a lot ofsandwiches, yeah.
A lot of sandwiches.
So, they have to eat a lot.
And they have to eat a lot tomaintain their body heat and to
survive.
And to carry on and reproduce.
And a couple of other thingsthat are interesting about them
(13:28):
is, other things like riverotters, den on land, and so the,
female river otter has a, littlelitter of kits.
She can have a whole bunch ofthem and they're kept safely in
their den and she can take themin and out.
But because a sea otter is atsea all the time, the pup is
born quite large and it can onlybe one, because a female can
only handle one pup at a time,so the female invests enormous
(13:49):
amount of energy into the careand rearing of these single
pups.
which she cares for six to eightmonths before they're weaned.
So they're really good moms aswell.
So here you have these animals.
They eat a ton of food, and thatcauses huge ecosystem effects.
So, sea otters feed mostly oninvertebrates, so shellfish, so
(14:10):
we're talking about things likesea urchins, and clams, and
crabs those are some of thecommon ones.
And they get those muscles, andthey get those things by diving
to the seafloor.
Or to rocky ledges, and they prythese things off with their
really strong forelimbs and theycarry them to the surface and
(14:31):
then they use their verydexterous paws and their really
powerful jaws to pry and crushthese things and open them up
and eat the insides.
So there they are diving up anddown doing this.
And they're eating a lot ofinvertebrates, these shellfish.
So you might imagine that eatinga lot of invertebrates could
have a real effect on anecosystem.
So, let's go back to the mid1880s, sea otters were
(14:57):
essentially removed from thisrole in the ecosystem.
So all these invertebrates aresitting around with no predator.
Woo! There's nobody eating me.
I'm a sea urchin.
There's nobody eating me.
So the sea urchins and theabalone and all these species
were released from their mainpredator.
And these animals areherbivores, they're grazers,
like an ungulate, like a cow,right?
(15:18):
They graze on kelp, they eatkelp.
And because they didn't have anypredators, they were grazing and
grazing and they were keepingthe kelp from growing.
So the kelp forests would havedisappeared.
You would have only had thesekelp forests as a fringe right
near the shore.
Where it was actually not greathabitat for some of the
invertebrates.
So these kelp forests weresmall, and you'd have these
(15:40):
areas that were carpeted withinvertebrates.
So they, we, we often talk aboutsea urchin barren, so areas that
are just carpeted, sea urchins.
So that's, this is the classicstory of sea otter effects in
rocky habitat.
So the sea otter isreintroduced, comes back, and as
the population recovers in anarea, these animals, they stay
(16:03):
in one area, they don't move,and they start eating these
invertebrates, they begin toreduce their numbers.
And these urchins and things aregoing, oh, my predator's back.
And so as their numbers arereduced, This allows the kelp
forest to grow so that's one ofthe effects we see, is
increasing sizes of kelp forestsbecause their invertebrate,
(16:25):
these grazing invertebrates arereduced in number and size.
So in areas where sea ottershave been occupying for quite a
while, these kelp beds can bereally big.
In fact, 19 times bigger than inareas.
And they extend further into thedeep.
They can be four times deeper.
So much, much bigger kelpforests.
And why do these matter?
(16:45):
Well, there's a whole bunch ofthings that are kind of cool
about kelp forests.
One for us to think about iscarbon sequestration.
So that's a nice thing for us.
But from another ecologicalperspective, they provide really
important habitat for rockfishand other types of juvenile
schooling fish that live inthese kelp forests.
So you have a lot of fish.
(17:07):
The kelp forest also helps toentrain or keep shellfish larvae
when they're, spawned fordisappearing off into the ocean
and spreading far and wide intoall the wrong habitats.
So when a shellfish spawns,their larvae are more likely to
settle in good habitat becausethey're not washed away.
They've got this kelp forest tokind of restrain the currents
(17:28):
and the water.
Yeah, the other thing that'shappening is those urchins and
abalone, for example, that usedto go around grazing all the
kelp.
Well, they've reverted to theirother existence, which is to
live in crevices.
So they're there, they're not asin high densities, but they're
living in crevices and they'refeeding on what we call the
detritus, bits of kelp that areraining down.
So they just become detritusfeeders, they sit there and feed
(17:50):
like that.
So you have a system in theserocky habitats where you have
fewer of these largeinvertebrates, much fewer, but a
greater diversity of organisms.
And in many ways, a moreproductive system where the
whole system is being fed fromthis carbon from the kelp
forest.
And also the kelp forest help tobuffer shorelines from storm and
(18:11):
erosion, which may becomeimportant with more climate
change.
So that's kind of this classicstory with this trophic cascade
of what happens in what we callrocky habitat, but sea otters
also eat things like clams andsoft sediment habitat.
And so there are also thingsgoing on in soft sediment
habitats, some of which is justbeginning to be looked at.
(18:34):
So we have what are called onthis coast, eelgrass beds, which
is a type of grass.
And otters will dig in theseeelgrass beds, often for clams
to feed on.
And it turns out, there's arecent study, it's pretty cool,
that shows that by doing this,by disturbing the eelgrass,
They're actually disrupting theeelgrass so that it causes them
(18:54):
to reproduce more, they have twotypes of reproduction, sexual
reproduction, and this increasesthe genetic diversity of the
eelgrass bed itself, which helpsTo improve resilience in the
very cool.
Yeah, so there's all theseinteresting trophic cascades and
feedbacks from sea otterforaging and what I'm describing
(19:17):
to you is just sort of athumbnail sketch of a whole
suite of really interestingstudies that have been done over
the last 20, 30, probably 40years because the return of the
sea otter has allowed for thisincredible opportunity.
to look at the recovery of aspecies and the reconnection of
(19:38):
all these interactions betweenspecies that existed when the
otter was there.
And it's been made possible bythe removal of otters and then
the reintroduction.
And so it's made us realize howimportant all these interactions
are.
So it's not just the otteritself, but it's all the things
that it creates.
So that's pretty interesting.
That's absolutely interesting.
(19:59):
And, yeah, it just reminds meof, like, the trophic cascades
of the really famous example ofwolves in Yellowstone.
And how that's changed thatecosystem entirely.
And, it reminds me of beaverschanging, like, as an ecosystem
engineer and changing thosesystems as well.
And.
Yeah.
I mean, the sea otters are justabsolutely adorable as well.
(20:21):
And I think it's, hard to arguethat as well.
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(21:45):
Now, back to our episode.
So.
I know this has been as manycoastal communities around
there, how have they beenaffected by this reintroduction?
I'm thinking of local Indigenouscommunities along the coast and
their access to traditionalfoods.
Well, that is definitely acontentious issue for sure.
And it's a topic of a great dealof discussion and investigation.
(22:07):
One thing that we can thinkabout is, Before the advent of
scuba, a lot of thoseinvertebrates that are now part
of dive fisheries would notprobably have been very
accessible to humans.
So people were living along thecoast.
They were living in villages andsummer camps, various places
where they would move to harvestdifferent things.
(22:27):
They were living along thecoast.
We might think about it as theintertidal, which refers to the
part of the seashore thatextends from the very highest
high water, when you get a bighigh tide, to the very lowest
low part.
We call that the intertidal.
and that zone, and even maybe alittle bit into where it's
shallow would have been thedomain of humans.
(22:49):
That's where humans would havebeen harvesting for sure.
And in particular, they wouldhave been harvesting clams,
which would have been a reallyimportant food, because it's
predictable and it's there.
When you get into the deeperwater, that domain, in terms of
these shellfish, would have beenmore the domain of Sea otters,
(23:09):
because humans wouldn't have hadas much access to them.
So in the deeper water, humanswould have fished.
Sea otters don't eat fish to anyextent, and they would have been
probably trapping for crabs, andthat might have been something
that sea otters would have beeneating as well, but really it's
that domain along the shore.
And so probably historically.
People excluded animals fromthose areas.
(23:30):
They were deterred by variousmeans from, that coastal area,
and it's now known that in manyparts of the coast human
settlements were creating whatare called clam gardens.
So they would actively terracethe shoreline, so raise up the
shoreline to enhance it forproductivity of clams.
(23:53):
Cool.
So they would create these clamgardens and we don't know if the
clam garden was a response tosea otter predation because when
you terrace the beach and youmake it higher like that it's
and it's too shallow, otter toforage, so you're effectively
excluding them.
So we don't know if it was inresponse to that, or if it was
(24:16):
in response to increasedpopulation density so it makes
sense to enhance your productionsomewhere relatively near your
village than to have to keepgoing further and further, or if
it was a combination of both.
But there's some reallyinteresting work that's been
done looking at.
archaeological sites indifferent areas, and that, you
(24:37):
know, this, this may well havehad a positive effect, that
people were able to continueharvesting clams in the presence
of otters.
So, so that's one thing that,that happened in the past.
But today people don't havethose.
shorelines and certainly seaotters consuming clams in these
(24:58):
areas where people occupy likechecklist at bay, for example,
it is definitely a cause ofgreat concern.
There's also concern for accessto things like urchins as well
because of sea otters.
So there's a lot of discussionabout can these ancient
techniques be used today to helpresolve some of these, these
(25:20):
issues.
Right.
The idea being that these, thatpeople in the past would have
dealt with this as well.
So can we learn from the past?
Yeah.
That's something to just a fewpieces to it, but it's an
ongoing issue and it's, and it'sa really important one because
it's also that, it's also thatpart of that bigger story of,
(25:42):
of, as we reintroduce toppredators and large mammals that
have important roles structuringecosystems.
We will encounter theseconflicts with humans.
And so we're going to butt upagainst conserving and
recovering species against humanneeds.
And that's, that's a reallyinteresting place that we're
(26:03):
coming to, kind of a crossroadsthat's going to need lots of
input from lots of people tocome up with solutions.
Absolutely.
And we have to have thoseconversations with and be open
and honest with, where we're atand, the different values that
are associated with it.
But that's very interesting ofthose clam gardens.
And I'm sure there's many other,there's many other techniques
(26:24):
that were, and, maybe aren'tpracticed anymore.
But if we can uncover and lookback at the past and see what
techniques have been used thathave been effective to be able
to cohabitate together, that'sreally interesting.
And you, kind of alluded to thisas well, but, I mean, there,
many other commercial businessesnow that, have techniques like
(26:44):
scuba diving that wasn't aroundwhen the sea otters were last
here as well.
And I'm just curious if there'sbeen any issues with I mean,
we've just discussed indigenouscommunities and access to food,
but about other local businessesthat maybe have sprung up
because of sea otters or maybeare affected negatively by sea
otters.
Yeah, well the return of the seaotter is definitely of, interest
(27:09):
and value to ecotourism.
So much of the sea otterpopulation on the BC coast is
still in quite remote areas.
Which makes it really fun as abiologist to go to these places.
Exactly.
And I mean that, no it is, it'sbeautiful.
But as the population increases,there's more places where
they're more accessible.
So, for example, Clockwood Soundon the west coast of Vancouver
(27:29):
Island is pretty accessible.
And the tour business out there,the tourism, ecotourism industry
and so they definitely knowwhere otters are, and they
include that on their sort ofyou know, menu of offerings when
they go out to look at graywhales or humpbacks and eagles
and sea otters and bears on thebeach.
So the sea otter is definitelybecoming part of eco tourism,
(27:50):
and there's also some ecotourism like that going on in
Czechoslovakia.
Because are great interest totourists.
On the other side.
Sea otters and commercial divefisheries don't go together
well, so where sea otters havereturned and come to occupy an
area, there just isn't thedensity and the size of
(28:12):
commercial, of things likeurchins and sea cucumbers to
sustain Those fisheries evencrab fisheries are affected by
them as well.
So sea otters are in conflictwith those fisheries, for sure.
Yeah, that's a reality.
There's also, though, a paperthat's come out recently.
It's in science, which lookedbroadly at this.
(28:33):
Socio ecological costs andbenefits of otters on the west
coast of Vancouver.
An example of sort of a way to,measure these things and the
conclusion of that paper wasactually that the net benefit to
thin fisheries, so fish,fisheries and ecotourism and
(28:53):
carbon sequestration.
That means being able to suckcarbon outta the air.
And hold it in kelp was overallbenefit of to those three things
was greater than the loss to thecommercial shellfish fisheries.
So just from a economicstandpoint, so that's a very
fascinating counterpoint outthere.
(29:14):
So that doesn't addresspeople's.
of their value of theirlivelihoods or Indigenous
community needs.
But it's a really interestingtake on it.
Wow.
That's really, really cool.
So During COVID lockdowns I knowthat there's been lots of talk
about different populations ofdifferent organisms and reacting
(29:34):
differently to different humaninteractions and pressures.
And I'm not even sure if otterswould act differently if there's
humans nearby.
But have there been anynoticeable effects on sea otter
populations due to decreased orincreased human traffic in their
areas?
Not that I'm aware of duringCOVID, but I can imagine sea
(29:54):
otters, sea otters can habituateto boat traffic, they can get
used to it to a certain extent,but they can also be disturbed
by it.
So, probably in places likeClaquett Sound, which is near
Tofino, where there would havebeen a lot of boat traffic, or
there is typically with sportfishing and whale watching and
boat sipping around theyprobably enjoyed a nice quiet
(30:17):
year when all that was largelyshut down.
And we do know that being hit byvessels is a source of injury
and mortality to sea otters.
You don't know to what extent,but they're hard to see.
And sometimes I'm surprisedthey're not.
So, you know, I can imagine thatduring that period of time,
there might have been less ofthat, but I really have no
statistics on this at all
(30:38):
Thank you so much to the Environmental Studies
Institute of Grant McEwenUniversity, based in Edmonton,
Alberta.
We're so grateful for thesponsorship and the support from
this program.
The Institute is designed tofoster the development of a
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This is achieved by developingknowledge and increasing the
capacity of individuals andgroups to find solutions that
(31:00):
contribute to a healthy andsustainable environment.
And we're so excited to be apart of that as part of this
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We're so grateful for yourgenerous support.
Now, back to our episode.
yeah, and you mentioned that younot only focus on sea otters,
and I could ask you a bazillionquestions about cetaceans off of
the coast of Vancouver Island.
(31:20):
But I know one of the questionsthat keeps coming back up to me
and I keep seeing mentioned iswhat are the issues about,
underwater noise and incetaceans that I, keep
understanding is, isn't a, anissue we're understanding more
and more about and how theyreact to noise.
And yeah what's the relationshipbetween cetaceans and underwater
noise?
(31:40):
Well, the thing with cetaceansis that they spend their lives
almost entirely underwater,except when they come up to
breathe, and they use sound bothto communicate actively and they
use sound to listen passively toidentify prey and things in
their environment.
(32:01):
And species of dolphins andporpoises and killer whales,
which are a big dolphin, useactive echolocation to locate
prey and objects in theirenvironment.
So, being able to listen, beingable to hear, being able to make
sound, being able to be heard,are all really important.
(32:22):
So it's a really importantmodality for cetaceans.
So, it's a bit like the cocktailparty where you're trying very
hard to concentrate on theperson in front of you when
there's a whole lot of peoplearound you.
You're shouting to be heard.
So we imagine that these arereal things for these animals,
that they're having to adjust toa noisy ocean.
But how much can they adjust?
So there's a lot of this sort ofdiscussion of how we can quiet
(32:45):
in the ocean, and this is thingslike trying to do trials where
ships are slowed down in certainareas, so coming into major
shipping lanes.
We have a major shipping one ofthe Vancouver Port of Vancouver
is one of the biggest portshere, and ships are coming
across the Pacific and inthrough the strait of Wanda.
If you can that has ever beenshut off headed for Vancouver or
(33:06):
Seattle or Tacoma.
There's literally 10, 000 ormore.
Transits of ships a year.
There have been efforts to haveslowdown zones where you
actually slow ships down incertain areas.
And the intent of doing that isby slowing them down, their
engine noise gets quieter.
And so you create these zones.
Of quiet for certain species.
So there was an effort to trythat for southern resident
(33:28):
killer whales in particular andsee if they could decrease the
noise levels.
So that's one thing where youmanage ship speed in areas to
try and make things quieter.
And then the other one, ofcourse, is there's efforts to
quieten the ships.
So they've got a list, they'vebeen doing things where they've
been recording the noise levelsof different ships as they come
into the port of Vancouver.
(33:49):
And then the ships, so they knowwhat their noise levels are, and
then there's, efforts out thereto try and quieten ships.
And I don't know a lot about howsuccessful any of that's been,
so I can only tell you thatthose are the things that are
going on.
I mean, the other thing aboutships I can say, and about
marine mammals, is there's twoother things that, are of
concern with regard to ships andpeople out on the water, and
(34:12):
that is ship strike, and theother one is entanglement in
fishing gear, which some of ourspecies of whales, even as
they're recovering well, likehumpback whales are recovering
really well on the coast, andgray whales, is entanglement for
these species in fishing gear isa growing problem.
It's a bit of a problem and shipstrike, though, you know, I
(34:32):
think a lot of people don'tthink about it, but we all know
about high speeds on highways.
So, what's the difference in theocean when you've got shipping
lanes, you've got ships comingacross the ocean at really high
speeds, coming into coastalwaters, or even when they're far
offshore, coming at very highspeeds.
With these big hulls that are,you know, 8 to 18 meters under
the water, these big cargoships.
(34:54):
You've got blue whales, and finwhales, and humpback whales out
there, swimming around, andthey're not super maneuverable,
and they spend a lot of time inthe upper surface waters.
These animals are getting hit bythese ships.
And, studies have shown thatspeeds over 12 knots, Result in
serious injury and pretty muchover 16 knots, you're looking at
(35:16):
mortality.
So that is an issue that'sgetting a lot of attention right
now, is to try and understandwhere whales are congregating in
relation to shipping lanes andwhat we can do about it.
So slowing ships down it can dotwo things.
You can deal with noise.
Getting hit by a ship.
So those aren't happy stories,but those are the kind of
problems that we know about andthat's where science comes into
(35:39):
play.
We say, well, where are thosewhales?
When are they in those areas?
What type of behaviors make themvulnerable to those human
activities?
And so then what can we offer assuggestions for what we can do
about it?
Yeah, we can have a school zonewhere between these hours of the
day, you have to go at thisspeed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
(36:00):
That's, wow, that's fascinating.
And yeah, just decreasing thespeed can have that much of an
effect.
That's absolutely incredible.
And it's another story of wherewe don't see how are our effects
are felt and especially on alarge ship like that, like on
these large, large vessels.
How would the people even onboard know that they've hit a
whale or something like that?
(36:20):
They don't.
They have no idea.
It's not until they get intocoastal waters and the carcass
is often wrapped around thebulbous bow.
They don't even know becausethey're so big.
Though we have a recent one inthe news.
There was a recent fin whalewashed up dead in the Strait of
Georgia here.
And it looks like it was, it wasblunt force trauma was the cause
of death.
And it's a fin whale that hadbeen seen around in Strait of
(36:41):
Juan de Fuca and Puget Soundrecently.
So it was hit by a ship.
That's absolutely devastating.
Oh, yeah, and we're seeing thisbecause these animals are
recovering.
So in the past, we wouldn't evenhave seen a sniffing whale
because we never saw them.
They were far and few betweenand commercial whaling had,
decimated the population.
so on the plus side, we'reseeing more of these animals.
And so we're seeing these issuesas well.
(37:03):
Exactly.
We're able to identify it andhow we can do better.
Yeah, so I guess anotherquestion was, are sea otters
negatively affected by soundfrequency?
I know you said that they canget habituated to boat traffic,
but is there a differencebetween that boat traffic and
the big boats with the bigsound?
I don't think so.
I've not heard of, you know, seaotters spend most of their time
with their heads out of thewater.
(37:24):
They're floating on the waterwith their heads up.
They don't use sound tocommunicate underwater.
They don't use sound to findfood.
They just dive down.
They use their little paws.
And they actually don't havevery good hearing sensitivity.
So, I'm not aware of anythingthat would suggest that they're
having an issue with shippingnoise.
And also, where they are, whichis really close to shore,
(37:46):
they're not typically wherethose big ships are.
I think if anything, it'sprobably disturbance would be
just from vessels going by anddisrupting resting groups of
animals is more of the concern.
Right.
Okay, well, that's good.
Yeah.
We don't have to worry aboutthat.
Yeah.
Take that one off the list.
Yeah.
So I guess just to kind offinish up here, if a listener is
just sitting at home and they'rejust dreaming about sea otters
(38:09):
and they're so excited to hearabout.
Successful recovery of seaotters or these issues between
sea otters and communities andhow we can find a way to make
this partnership work and havethese inhabit these same waters
together.
How can listeners get involvedwith sea otter recovery?
Well, I thought about that abit, and one thing is, sea
(38:29):
otters are doing just great ontheir own, so you know, unlike
other species, we haven't reallyneeded to help them along in
their recovery, but I think thesea otter story is informative
on a broader scale, and I hopewhat people can see is that the
sea otter story has shown us Ithink it's important to
recognize that the importance ofrecovering a top predator or
(38:51):
large mammal is the recovery ofthese ecosystem interactions.
I know that's a big mouthful,but these interactions between
species this cascade of effect.
It's like you mentioned with thewolves as well that it's not
just the recovery of the speciesitself.
But it's the recovery of a wholesuite of organisms and their
interactions, some of which wenever even knew existed.
(39:15):
And really, is that reallyvaluable?
Is that, is that something thatwe value?
And so, to take that idea, andto think about that when you
think about cougars, or mountcaribou, or wolves, or coyotes,
and when we think of theseanimals, you know, are they a
problem?
Or do we want them here?
Do we value the interactionsthat they create as well?
(39:38):
And so, what can I do to learnmore about that and maybe think
about those things and supportthose things where I see them
happening around me?
And the sea otter story can be astory, a lesson, in some of
these.
It's what can happen when aspecies is introduced at the
same time.
It's also a lesson in whenconflicts emerge.
And one thing I would say is, Ithink figuring out navigating
(40:02):
forward through these issues,these conflicts of sea otters
and fisheries and indigenoussubsistence harvest is going to
take us a lot of creativecontributions.
So that's one place.
And the final thing I thoughtabout, which is, climate change.
So, climate change reallymatters, and sea otters, Feed on
(40:24):
shellfish.
They feed on shellfish withcalcar shells.
And you touched on that withacidification.
Ocean acidification is probablygonna be a really big deal for
these animals because it's gonnaaffect their prey.
We don't know exactly what'sgonna happen, but ocean
acidification is gonna be a realproblem for hard shell prey.
So what is that gonna mean for asea otters food base?
So what that means is we all canhave a part in trying to do what
(40:49):
we can to combat climate changeand support or make choices that
may help us to reduce our carbonoutputs.
So sometimes the really bigthings can help little things.
And so those are just some broadthings that I can think of.
I love that.
And I love how you tied in,ocean acidification.
And 100 percent going to be adirect impact on sea otters and
(41:09):
how...
You can frame your thoughtprocess about climate change and
how you can frame it in havingspecific effects that you could,
that you could see and thinkingabout your actions.
If it's too broad of anexistential threat, you can
think of it as a more narrowframework of my decision is for
this, purpose.
That's, I love that.
(41:29):
That's really beautiful.
And my final question to you isjust what led you into this
career path and how did you getto where you are?
And what inspired you to goalong these roads?
I know I'm throwing this out atyou, but it's a fun one to end
with.
Well, I must say I'm incrediblylucky.
I spent my childhood.
Along the shores of the Straitof Georgia.
So I grew up out here and Ispent all my childhood And I had
(41:56):
a, just a full interest infascination about the marine
environment and marine mammalswere always intriguing and I
think it was because they werekind of rare, so I'm not that
old, but I could tell you thatwhen I was a kid in the 70s,
seeing a harbor seal was a bigdeal.
And the reason was because theharbor seal had been pushed to
(42:18):
very, very low levels by bountyhunting and commercial hunting.
So there was probably only 10,000 seals in BC.
So when we would see one fromthe shore, we'd be like, Oh my
goodness, this was reallyexciting.
So I kind of got this interestin marine mammals quite early
on.
And so I was fortunate enough topursue that and I did a master's
degree on killer whale foragingecology and then after many
(42:43):
years of doing various things,this opportunity to work on
remodels of fisheries and oceanscame up.
That's awesome.
And sounds like you're livingthe dream.
Well, you know, all dreams justsound like dreams.
There's not, you know, lifehas...
No, no, no, let's be clear.
Life has its has its scratchesand bumps.
I just gave you a, polishedsurface.
That's probably not true.
(43:04):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I like to say when people saythat they envision what I
typically do on a day to daybasis, it's, you can paint it
with whatever stroke you like,but the reality isn't always as
beautiful and as rose colouredglasses as many people would
like to imagine it as.
Right.
It's like Facebook.
Everybody makes the best, youknow, Facebook video.
Exactly, exactly.
(43:24):
Well, thank you so much forspeaking with me on the podcast
and I'm so excited to, to sharethis with listeners and to share
the story of the sea otterrecovery and, what we're doing
about it.
So thanks so much for your time.
Okay, that was great to talk toyou.
SOUND OF EXPLOSION
Thank you so much for listening to today's
episode.
And thank you so much, LindaNickel, for speaking with us
(43:47):
about so many topics, but reallyjust telling us the story of the
sea otter and why we shouldcare.
Now, if you want to knowanything else about sea otters
there'll be lots of notes in theshow description.
So please go down, check thoseout.
And be sure to just keep stayingcurious.
These amazing creatures arecoming back and you should go
visit them.
(44:07):
They're really, really cool.
My name is David Evans and I'mthe host and producer of the,
what are we doing podcast?
I'm just so excited to thank Allof the other support that I have
from the aquatic biosphereproject and the rest of the
team.
Big shout outs to Paula Pullmanand Dr.
Ross Shaw as they've been superhelpful.
Also, this episode was edited byLeanna Bresson from McEwen
university.
And thank you so much, Leanna,for all of your help throughout
(44:29):
this entire process.
Hey, if you're listening to thisas a podcast episode, be sure to
go check us out on YouTube.
This is also a video now.
Who knew it?
Thanks so much, and it's been asplash.
Sea otters are one of the most iconic species off
of the west coast of NorthAmerica.
They're always found in kelpforests, tied up with kelp,
sleeping up on top of thesurface, and then diving down to
get their food from the bottom.
We actually lost sea otters offthe coast of Vancouver Island in
Canada's west coast.
We had to reintroduce them fromAlaska.
(00:40):
And today, we're talking withLinda Nickel from the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans allabout the reintroduction, what's
currently happening, and whythey can have problems with
fisheries So, sit back and relaxand get ready to learn a little
bit more about sea otters andwhat is happening to them right
now in Canada.
(01:00):
Water Fox Bunny Ji Nipi EarthWater Water Dragon Drinking
(01:25):
Women Two.
Robert, Mary, he Y.
Water we doing and how can we dobetter?
Your one stop shop foreverything water related.
(01:48):
From discussing water, its use,and the organisms that depend on
it.
For all the global issues thatyou really never knew all had to
do with water.
I'm your host David Evans fromthe Aquatic Biosphere Project,
and I just want to ask yousomething.
What are we doing, and how canwe do better?
(02:17):
=So welcome to another deep diveepisode of the What Are We Doing
podcast.
So today I'm so excited to learnall about sea otters, Vancouver
Island, and talk with oneexperts in the field.
I'm speaking with Linda Nickeltoday.
Linda, do you mind justintroducing yourself?
And can you tell us a little bitabout what you do?
(02:38):
Yes, my name is Linda Nichol andI'm a research biologist at the
Pacific Biological Station inNanaimo.
So I work for Fisheries andOceans Canada and our focus in
our group is aroundconservation.
So it's research that is insupport of conservation.
So often, if we want to conservespecies, we need to understand
(03:00):
what, their needs are in termsof habitat or food, or what are
the threats to them from humanactivities.
And if we can understand thesethings.
And then we have a better chanceof making management decisions
to support the recovery.
Awesome.
So many Canadians, we don't livenear the ocean and I can just
see out your window that itlooks like you're in a beautiful
(03:21):
place and wow, definitelyjealous whether I have snow
still outside of my window here.
But to get us started With yourfocus being on sea otters and
other marine mammals can youtell us a little bit about the
history of sea otters off thewest coast of Canada?
Yeah, well, I, was thinkingabout that question.
I mean, it's, it can be broad orit can be narrow.
How far back do we go?
I'll sort of start in the middleand then I'll jump around a
(03:44):
little bit.
So, we often think about...
The sea otter history is markedby the beginning of the maritime
fur trade, which was in the mid1700s.
And we think about how manyotters were there before that
fur trade.
And so Essentially, what isthought is that prior to the mid
(04:05):
1700s, there was probably it's avery crude estimate, but 150,
000 sea otters that ranged alongcoastal areas from northern
Japan all the way around thetops of northern Russia, the
Commander and Curl Islands, theAleutian Islands, down the
Alaskan coast, B.
C., What is Washington, Oregon,California, and right to
(04:28):
northern Mexico.
that is the full range of thisspecies.
The sea otter, well, it's,nearest ancestor first emerged
in the North Pacific periodabout 2 million years ago.
And so they've been here for along time nearshore habitat.
And we know that it's certainthat the indigenous peoples
(04:52):
who've lived along these coastalareas have hunted sea otters for
their pelts and traded theirpelts.
Prior to the fur trade, so therewas a existence of humans and
these existence of ottersthroughout these areas.
So then along came first theRussians in the Bering and
Commander Islands, and in theearly 1700s, 1740, and they
(05:14):
found sea otters and began tohunt them.
And then later on, famous tripof Captain Cook, he arrived on
Nook Island in 1778.
So quite a long time ago, but hesailed off in a ship, a ship
that probably wasn't as big aswe imagined.
And his his crew traded with theMowachat people who lived at
(05:37):
Yukon, at their village, becausethat's where they were.
He traded for a relatively smallnumber of pelts, these
beautiful, luxurious pelts.
And off they went.
And they sailed away across thePacific to China, to Macau,
where they sold them for thisextraordinary sum of money.
They couldn't believe how muchthey could get for these.
And so that was the beginning ofthis trade.
(05:59):
And so following that, tradingvessels, European and American
trading vessels, would come tothe coast annually every year.
And they'd spend months on thecoast trading with the
Indigenous people to acquirethese pelts from them.
That the Indigenous people wouldhave been hunting, presumably
through the winter inanticipation of their arrival.
And so this went on for quite awhile, but not as long as you
(06:22):
might think.
And so by the mid 1800s, so lessthan a hundred years later, this
trade was over.
Wow.
And the reason it was over wasbecause it wasn't really worth
the traders coming to the coastanymore because they weren't
going to be getting very manysea otter pelts.
So that sort of was the end ofthat fur trade.
They were still hunted, butthere wasn't a big trade.
And in jumping ahead to 1911,which is another date when there
(06:47):
was a important fur seal treatythat was signed that had just a
little bit to do with otters.
Otters aren't fur seals.
But at that time, it's recordedthat there were probably only 1,
000 to 2, 000 otters left.
In the world so left in thePacific.
So we've gone from hundreds ofthousands to 1000 to 2000
(07:10):
animals and they were scatteredin 13 little remnant colonies.
It's super remote places, likein the Aleutian Islands.
One little one at the north endof Haida Gwaii, and one in
California, and one in Mexico.
At any rate, these coloniesnumbered 10 to 100 animals, so
really small.
And they continued to be hunted,so that the one in Haida Gwaii,
(07:33):
this little tiny one that wasknown to have been there in
1911, was pretty much gone by1920.
So that was the end of seaotters in B.
C., and ironically or not seaotters were first protected in
British Columbia by what wasthen the B.
C.
Wildlife Act, and it came intoeffect in 1931.
but ironically, The last knownsea otter that had been killed,
(07:57):
there's a couple of records, oneis 1929 and one is 1931, so we
didn't really get a chance toprotect the sea otters in BC
before they were gone.
So we consider them, after that,to be gone, and In terms of
whatever role they played in theecosystem on the BC coast,
they've really been gone sincethe mid 1800s in terms of having
(08:19):
their ecological role, which wecan talk about next.
So that was it, all quiet on thecoast, no sea otters, until the
1960s.
So now we jump ahead 30 yearsfrom that BC Wildlife Act, or 50
years from that First SealTreaty, and well over 100 years.
From the end of the fur tradeand what happened was the
(08:42):
Americans were doing nucleartesting at Amchitka in the
Aleutian Islands, and it wasgoing to affect wildlife,
including sea otters.
So there was sort of acatalyzed, This idea with
American biologists to move someof the otters out of that area,
Amchitka, and where could theybe relocated?
And with the idea ofreintroducing them to places
where they had not recoveredyet.
(09:03):
Remember, there was just thosetiny colonies.
So, the Canadian biologists wereapproached, and it was deemed a
good idea.
And so as part of thatreintroduction, animals were
reintroduced to Checklissett Bayon the west coast of Vancouver
Island, one spot.
There were three reintroductionefforts.
for a total of 89 animals.
and many less than half of thoseeventually survived.
(09:26):
And there were alsoreintroductions in Washington
and one in Oregon that didn'twork.
And so that was the start of ourcurrent sea otter population as
best we know.
And those sea otters, The onesthat survived, reproduced, and
we now, we now, as of today ourbest, our most recent population
(09:47):
estimate, we have just under Wehave probably at least 8, 000
sea otters on the BC coast.
And so largely from that, asmuch as we know from that
reintroduction.
And the population still hashabitat to expand into.
And we also know that the whole,so they haven't occupied their
full range in the North Pacific.
(10:08):
There's still places where theydon't exist.
But the population is thought tobe something like 125, 000
animals.
throughout the range althoughthere have been some major
declines in the AleutianIslands.
So that is the history of seaotters on the west coast of
Vancouver Island and the NorthPacific.
Wow.
Yeah, you did the, you did theentire ring there.
(10:28):
That's wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, it's such aninteresting story in history of
not only how the first contactwith Captain Cook and how that
really Begot the entiresituation and has led to where
we are today and thisreintroduction effort and It's
astounding to me of hearing evenif 89 animals survived that to
(10:53):
grow to 8, 000 is incredible andwith I mean, there's other
examples from the biology worldof really assisted repopulation
of efforts but basically it's, Imean, my interpretation of what
you said is just letting theseanimals free and letting them to
their own devices, and thishappened naturally, and so
That's quite different thanmaternal penning of, caribou or,
(11:17):
other such, such types ofreintroduction efforts.
So that's really, interesting tohear.
You alluded as well to the roleof sea otters and how they play
in the aquatic ecosystem.
So how has.
What role do they fill, and howhas their reintroduction changed
the waters off of VancouverIsland from them not being
(11:37):
present for so long?
Well, so, there's a few thingspretty unique about sea otters
that plays into this part of thestory.
Sea otters are, they're amustelid, so they're an otter,
and they're the only one thatlives in the marine environment.
They live their entire lives.
They've, evolved to occupy thatnear shore niche along the
coast.
They, stay in the oceanthroughout their lives.
(11:59):
They never come ashore but theydon't have a blubber layer.
So all other marine mammals havea nice thick blubber layer which
keeps them warm like a wetsuit.
So these guys don't have that.
So what they've evolved is thisincredibly dense fur that has
these sort of waterproofingouter hairs and then this very
dense under fur.
Where air is captured and thatair layer keeps them warm and
(12:22):
they have to keep that fur superclean.
But that's the luxurious furthat got them in trouble in the
first place.
But it's what keeps them warm.
But the other piece of whatkeeps these relatively small
animals warm is having a veryhigh metabolic rate.
That means your internalfurnace.
So it's what keeps you warm.
We have a metabolism thatgenerates heat and that's how we
(12:44):
maintain our body temperature.
So they have a very highmetabolic rate.
They consume, so they need to,they're generating a lot of heat
and they're consuming theircalories to produce that heat.
And what that means is that theyneed to eat a lot.
So, a sea otter has a metabolismthat's over twice that of a
mammal of a comparable size onland.
(13:06):
And it means that they need toeat 20 30 percent of their body
weight in food every day.
So you could just imagine, youcould do the math for yourself.
Hmm, how many sandwiches wouldthat be?
That would be a lot ofsandwiches, yeah.
A lot of sandwiches.
So, they have to eat a lot.
And they have to eat a lot tomaintain their body heat and to
survive.
And to carry on and reproduce.
And a couple of other thingsthat are interesting about them
(13:28):
is, other things like riverotters, den on land, and so the,
female river otter has a, littlelitter of kits.
She can have a whole bunch ofthem and they're kept safely in
their den and she can take themin and out.
But because a sea otter is atsea all the time, the pup is
born quite large and it can onlybe one, because a female can
only handle one pup at a time,so the female invests enormous
(13:49):
amount of energy into the careand rearing of these single
pups.
which she cares for six to eightmonths before they're weaned.
So they're really good moms aswell.
So here you have these animals.
They eat a ton of food, and thatcauses huge ecosystem effects.
So, sea otters feed mostly oninvertebrates, so shellfish, so
(14:10):
we're talking about things likesea urchins, and clams, and
crabs those are some of thecommon ones.
And they get those muscles, andthey get those things by diving
to the seafloor.
Or to rocky ledges, and they prythese things off with their
really strong forelimbs and theycarry them to the surface and
(14:31):
then they use their verydexterous paws and their really
powerful jaws to pry and crushthese things and open them up
and eat the insides.
So there they are diving up anddown doing this.
And they're eating a lot ofinvertebrates, these shellfish.
So you might imagine that eatinga lot of invertebrates could
have a real effect on anecosystem.
So, let's go back to the mid1880s, sea otters were
(14:57):
essentially removed from thisrole in the ecosystem.
So all these invertebrates aresitting around with no predator.
Woo! There's nobody eating me.
I'm a sea urchin.
There's nobody eating me.
So the sea urchins and theabalone and all these species
were released from their mainpredator.
And these animals areherbivores, they're grazers,
like an ungulate, like a cow,right?
(15:18):
They graze on kelp, they eatkelp.
And because they didn't have anypredators, they were grazing and
grazing and they were keepingthe kelp from growing.
So the kelp forests would havedisappeared.
You would have only had thesekelp forests as a fringe right
near the shore.
Where it was actually not greathabitat for some of the
invertebrates.
So these kelp forests weresmall, and you'd have these
(15:40):
areas that were carpeted withinvertebrates.
So they, we, we often talk aboutsea urchin barren, so areas that
are just carpeted, sea urchins.
So that's, this is the classicstory of sea otter effects in
rocky habitat.
So the sea otter isreintroduced, comes back, and as
the population recovers in anarea, these animals, they stay
(16:03):
in one area, they don't move,and they start eating these
invertebrates, they begin toreduce their numbers.
And these urchins and things aregoing, oh, my predator's back.
And so as their numbers arereduced, This allows the kelp
forest to grow so that's one ofthe effects we see, is
increasing sizes of kelp forestsbecause their invertebrate,
(16:25):
these grazing invertebrates arereduced in number and size.
So in areas where sea ottershave been occupying for quite a
while, these kelp beds can bereally big.
In fact, 19 times bigger than inareas.
And they extend further into thedeep.
They can be four times deeper.
So much, much bigger kelpforests.
And why do these matter?
(16:45):
Well, there's a whole bunch ofthings that are kind of cool
about kelp forests.
One for us to think about iscarbon sequestration.
So that's a nice thing for us.
But from another ecologicalperspective, they provide really
important habitat for rockfishand other types of juvenile
schooling fish that live inthese kelp forests.
So you have a lot of fish.
(17:07):
The kelp forest also helps toentrain or keep shellfish larvae
when they're, spawned fordisappearing off into the ocean
and spreading far and wide intoall the wrong habitats.
So when a shellfish spawns,their larvae are more likely to
settle in good habitat becausethey're not washed away.
They've got this kelp forest tokind of restrain the currents
(17:28):
and the water.
Yeah, the other thing that'shappening is those urchins and
abalone, for example, that usedto go around grazing all the
kelp.
Well, they've reverted to theirother existence, which is to
live in crevices.
So they're there, they're not asin high densities, but they're
living in crevices and they'refeeding on what we call the
detritus, bits of kelp that areraining down.
So they just become detritusfeeders, they sit there and feed
(17:50):
like that.
So you have a system in theserocky habitats where you have
fewer of these largeinvertebrates, much fewer, but a
greater diversity of organisms.
And in many ways, a moreproductive system where the
whole system is being fed fromthis carbon from the kelp
forest.
And also the kelp forest help tobuffer shorelines from storm and
(18:11):
erosion, which may becomeimportant with more climate
change.
So that's kind of this classicstory with this trophic cascade
of what happens in what we callrocky habitat, but sea otters
also eat things like clams andsoft sediment habitat.
And so there are also thingsgoing on in soft sediment
habitats, some of which is justbeginning to be looked at.
(18:34):
So we have what are called onthis coast, eelgrass beds, which
is a type of grass.
And otters will dig in theseeelgrass beds, often for clams
to feed on.
And it turns out, there's arecent study, it's pretty cool,
that shows that by doing this,by disturbing the eelgrass,
They're actually disrupting theeelgrass so that it causes them
(18:54):
to reproduce more, they have twotypes of reproduction, sexual
reproduction, and this increasesthe genetic diversity of the
eelgrass bed itself, which helpsTo improve resilience in the
very cool.
Yeah, so there's all theseinteresting trophic cascades and
feedbacks from sea otterforaging and what I'm describing
(19:17):
to you is just sort of athumbnail sketch of a whole
suite of really interestingstudies that have been done over
the last 20, 30, probably 40years because the return of the
sea otter has allowed for thisincredible opportunity.
to look at the recovery of aspecies and the reconnection of
(19:38):
all these interactions betweenspecies that existed when the
otter was there.
And it's been made possible bythe removal of otters and then
the reintroduction.
And so it's made us realize howimportant all these interactions
are.
So it's not just the otteritself, but it's all the things
that it creates.
So that's pretty interesting.
That's absolutely interesting.
(19:59):
And, yeah, it just reminds meof, like, the trophic cascades
of the really famous example ofwolves in Yellowstone.
And how that's changed thatecosystem entirely.
And, it reminds me of beaverschanging, like, as an ecosystem
engineer and changing thosesystems as well.
And.
Yeah.
I mean, the sea otters are justabsolutely adorable as well.
(20:21):
And I think it's, hard to arguethat as well.
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(21:45):
Now, back to our episode.
So.
I know this has been as manycoastal communities around
there, how have they beenaffected by this reintroduction?
I'm thinking of local Indigenouscommunities along the coast and
their access to traditionalfoods.
Well, that is definitely acontentious issue for sure.
And it's a topic of a great dealof discussion and investigation.
(22:07):
One thing that we can thinkabout is, Before the advent of
scuba, a lot of thoseinvertebrates that are now part
of dive fisheries would notprobably have been very
accessible to humans.
So people were living along thecoast.
They were living in villages andsummer camps, various places
where they would move to harvestdifferent things.
(22:27):
They were living along thecoast.
We might think about it as theintertidal, which refers to the
part of the seashore thatextends from the very highest
high water, when you get a bighigh tide, to the very lowest
low part.
We call that the intertidal.
and that zone, and even maybe alittle bit into where it's
shallow would have been thedomain of humans.
(22:49):
That's where humans would havebeen harvesting for sure.
And in particular, they wouldhave been harvesting clams,
which would have been a reallyimportant food, because it's
predictable and it's there.
When you get into the deeperwater, that domain, in terms of
these shellfish, would have beenmore the domain of Sea otters,
(23:09):
because humans wouldn't have hadas much access to them.
So in the deeper water, humanswould have fished.
Sea otters don't eat fish to anyextent, and they would have been
probably trapping for crabs, andthat might have been something
that sea otters would have beeneating as well, but really it's
that domain along the shore.
And so probably historically.
People excluded animals fromthose areas.
(23:30):
They were deterred by variousmeans from, that coastal area,
and it's now known that in manyparts of the coast human
settlements were creating whatare called clam gardens.
So they would actively terracethe shoreline, so raise up the
shoreline to enhance it forproductivity of clams.
(23:53):
Cool.
So they would create these clamgardens and we don't know if the
clam garden was a response tosea otter predation because when
you terrace the beach and youmake it higher like that it's
and it's too shallow, otter toforage, so you're effectively
excluding them.
So we don't know if it was inresponse to that, or if it was
(24:16):
in response to increasedpopulation density so it makes
sense to enhance your productionsomewhere relatively near your
village than to have to keepgoing further and further, or if
it was a combination of both.
But there's some reallyinteresting work that's been
done looking at.
archaeological sites indifferent areas, and that, you
(24:37):
know, this, this may well havehad a positive effect, that
people were able to continueharvesting clams in the presence
of otters.
So, so that's one thing that,that happened in the past.
But today people don't havethose.
shorelines and certainly seaotters consuming clams in these
(24:58):
areas where people occupy likechecklist at bay, for example,
it is definitely a cause ofgreat concern.
There's also concern for accessto things like urchins as well
because of sea otters.
So there's a lot of discussionabout can these ancient
techniques be used today to helpresolve some of these, these
(25:20):
issues.
Right.
The idea being that these, thatpeople in the past would have
dealt with this as well.
So can we learn from the past?
Yeah.
That's something to just a fewpieces to it, but it's an
ongoing issue and it's, and it'sa really important one because
it's also that, it's also thatpart of that bigger story of,
(25:42):
of, as we reintroduce toppredators and large mammals that
have important roles structuringecosystems.
We will encounter theseconflicts with humans.
And so we're going to butt upagainst conserving and
recovering species against humanneeds.
And that's, that's a reallyinteresting place that we're
(26:03):
coming to, kind of a crossroadsthat's going to need lots of
input from lots of people tocome up with solutions.
Absolutely.
And we have to have thoseconversations with and be open
and honest with, where we're atand, the different values that
are associated with it.
But that's very interesting ofthose clam gardens.
And I'm sure there's many other,there's many other techniques
(26:24):
that were, and, maybe aren'tpracticed anymore.
But if we can uncover and lookback at the past and see what
techniques have been used thathave been effective to be able
to cohabitate together, that'sreally interesting.
And you, kind of alluded to thisas well, but, I mean, there,
many other commercial businessesnow that, have techniques like
(26:44):
scuba diving that wasn't aroundwhen the sea otters were last
here as well.
And I'm just curious if there'sbeen any issues with I mean,
we've just discussed indigenouscommunities and access to food,
but about other local businessesthat maybe have sprung up
because of sea otters or maybeare affected negatively by sea
otters.
Yeah, well the return of the seaotter is definitely of, interest
(27:09):
and value to ecotourism.
So much of the sea otterpopulation on the BC coast is
still in quite remote areas.
Which makes it really fun as abiologist to go to these places.
Exactly.
And I mean that, no it is, it'sbeautiful.
But as the population increases,there's more places where
they're more accessible.
So, for example, Clockwood Soundon the west coast of Vancouver
(27:29):
Island is pretty accessible.
And the tour business out there,the tourism, ecotourism industry
and so they definitely knowwhere otters are, and they
include that on their sort ofyou know, menu of offerings when
they go out to look at graywhales or humpbacks and eagles
and sea otters and bears on thebeach.
So the sea otter is definitelybecoming part of eco tourism,
(27:50):
and there's also some ecotourism like that going on in
Czechoslovakia.
Because are great interest totourists.
On the other side.
Sea otters and commercial divefisheries don't go together
well, so where sea otters havereturned and come to occupy an
area, there just isn't thedensity and the size of
(28:12):
commercial, of things likeurchins and sea cucumbers to
sustain Those fisheries evencrab fisheries are affected by
them as well.
So sea otters are in conflictwith those fisheries, for sure.
Yeah, that's a reality.
There's also, though, a paperthat's come out recently.
It's in science, which lookedbroadly at this.
(28:33):
Socio ecological costs andbenefits of otters on the west
coast of Vancouver.
An example of sort of a way to,measure these things and the
conclusion of that paper wasactually that the net benefit to
thin fisheries, so fish,fisheries and ecotourism and
(28:53):
carbon sequestration.
That means being able to suckcarbon outta the air.
And hold it in kelp was overallbenefit of to those three things
was greater than the loss to thecommercial shellfish fisheries.
So just from a economicstandpoint, so that's a very
fascinating counterpoint outthere.
(29:14):
So that doesn't addresspeople's.
of their value of theirlivelihoods or Indigenous
community needs.
But it's a really interestingtake on it.
Wow.
That's really, really cool.
So During COVID lockdowns I knowthat there's been lots of talk
about different populations ofdifferent organisms and reacting
(29:34):
differently to different humaninteractions and pressures.
And I'm not even sure if otterswould act differently if there's
humans nearby.
But have there been anynoticeable effects on sea otter
populations due to decreased orincreased human traffic in their
areas?
Not that I'm aware of duringCOVID, but I can imagine sea
(29:54):
otters, sea otters can habituateto boat traffic, they can get
used to it to a certain extent,but they can also be disturbed
by it.
So, probably in places likeClaquett Sound, which is near
Tofino, where there would havebeen a lot of boat traffic, or
there is typically with sportfishing and whale watching and
boat sipping around theyprobably enjoyed a nice quiet
(30:17):
year when all that was largelyshut down.
And we do know that being hit byvessels is a source of injury
and mortality to sea otters.
You don't know to what extent,but they're hard to see.
And sometimes I'm surprisedthey're not.
So, you know, I can imagine thatduring that period of time,
there might have been less ofthat, but I really have no
statistics on this at all
(30:38):
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(31:00):
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Now, back to our episode.
yeah, and you mentioned that younot only focus on sea otters,
and I could ask you a bazillionquestions about cetaceans off of
the coast of Vancouver Island.
(31:20):
But I know one of the questionsthat keeps coming back up to me
and I keep seeing mentioned iswhat are the issues about,
underwater noise and incetaceans that I, keep
understanding is, isn't a, anissue we're understanding more
and more about and how theyreact to noise.
And yeah what's the relationshipbetween cetaceans and underwater
noise?
(31:40):
Well, the thing with cetaceansis that they spend their lives
almost entirely underwater,except when they come up to
breathe, and they use sound bothto communicate actively and they
use sound to listen passively toidentify prey and things in
their environment.
(32:01):
And species of dolphins andporpoises and killer whales,
which are a big dolphin, useactive echolocation to locate
prey and objects in theirenvironment.
So, being able to listen, beingable to hear, being able to make
sound, being able to be heard,are all really important.
(32:22):
So it's a really importantmodality for cetaceans.
So, it's a bit like the cocktailparty where you're trying very
hard to concentrate on theperson in front of you when
there's a whole lot of peoplearound you.
You're shouting to be heard.
So we imagine that these arereal things for these animals,
that they're having to adjust toa noisy ocean.
But how much can they adjust?
So there's a lot of this sort ofdiscussion of how we can quiet
(32:45):
in the ocean, and this is thingslike trying to do trials where
ships are slowed down in certainareas, so coming into major
shipping lanes.
We have a major shipping one ofthe Vancouver Port of Vancouver
is one of the biggest portshere, and ships are coming
across the Pacific and inthrough the strait of Wanda.
If you can that has ever beenshut off headed for Vancouver or
(33:06):
Seattle or Tacoma.
There's literally 10, 000 ormore.
Transits of ships a year.
There have been efforts to haveslowdown zones where you
actually slow ships down incertain areas.
And the intent of doing that isby slowing them down, their
engine noise gets quieter.
And so you create these zones.
Of quiet for certain species.
So there was an effort to trythat for southern resident
(33:28):
killer whales in particular andsee if they could decrease the
noise levels.
So that's one thing where youmanage ship speed in areas to
try and make things quieter.
And then the other one, ofcourse, is there's efforts to
quieten the ships.
So they've got a list, they'vebeen doing things where they've
been recording the noise levelsof different ships as they come
into the port of Vancouver.
(33:49):
And then the ships, so they knowwhat their noise levels are, and
then there's, efforts out thereto try and quieten ships.
And I don't know a lot about howsuccessful any of that's been,
so I can only tell you thatthose are the things that are
going on.
I mean, the other thing aboutships I can say, and about
marine mammals, is there's twoother things that, are of
concern with regard to ships andpeople out on the water, and
(34:12):
that is ship strike, and theother one is entanglement in
fishing gear, which some of ourspecies of whales, even as
they're recovering well, likehumpback whales are recovering
really well on the coast, andgray whales, is entanglement for
these species in fishing gear isa growing problem.
It's a bit of a problem and shipstrike, though, you know, I
(34:32):
think a lot of people don'tthink about it, but we all know
about high speeds on highways.
So, what's the difference in theocean when you've got shipping
lanes, you've got ships comingacross the ocean at really high
speeds, coming into coastalwaters, or even when they're far
offshore, coming at very highspeeds.
With these big hulls that are,you know, 8 to 18 meters under
the water, these big cargoships.
(34:54):
You've got blue whales, and finwhales, and humpback whales out
there, swimming around, andthey're not super maneuverable,
and they spend a lot of time inthe upper surface waters.
These animals are getting hit bythese ships.
And, studies have shown thatspeeds over 12 knots, Result in
serious injury and pretty muchover 16 knots, you're looking at
(35:16):
mortality.
So that is an issue that'sgetting a lot of attention right
now, is to try and understandwhere whales are congregating in
relation to shipping lanes andwhat we can do about it.
So slowing ships down it can dotwo things.
You can deal with noise.
Getting hit by a ship.
So those aren't happy stories,but those are the kind of
problems that we know about andthat's where science comes into
(35:39):
play.
We say, well, where are thosewhales?
When are they in those areas?
What type of behaviors make themvulnerable to those human
activities?
And so then what can we offer assuggestions for what we can do
about it?
Yeah, we can have a school zonewhere between these hours of the
day, you have to go at thisspeed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
(36:00):
That's, wow, that's fascinating.
And yeah, just decreasing thespeed can have that much of an
effect.
That's absolutely incredible.
And it's another story of wherewe don't see how are our effects
are felt and especially on alarge ship like that, like on
these large, large vessels.
How would the people even onboard know that they've hit a
whale or something like that?
(36:20):
They don't.
They have no idea.
It's not until they get intocoastal waters and the carcass
is often wrapped around thebulbous bow.
They don't even know becausethey're so big.
Though we have a recent one inthe news.
There was a recent fin whalewashed up dead in the Strait of
Georgia here.
And it looks like it was, it wasblunt force trauma was the cause
of death.
And it's a fin whale that hadbeen seen around in Strait of
(36:41):
Juan de Fuca and Puget Soundrecently.
So it was hit by a ship.
That's absolutely devastating.
Oh, yeah, and we're seeing thisbecause these animals are
recovering.
So in the past, we wouldn't evenhave seen a sniffing whale
because we never saw them.
They were far and few betweenand commercial whaling had,
decimated the population.
so on the plus side, we'reseeing more of these animals.
And so we're seeing these issuesas well.
(37:03):
Exactly.
We're able to identify it andhow we can do better.
Yeah, so I guess anotherquestion was, are sea otters
negatively affected by soundfrequency?
I know you said that they canget habituated to boat traffic,
but is there a differencebetween that boat traffic and
the big boats with the bigsound?
I don't think so.
I've not heard of, you know, seaotters spend most of their time
with their heads out of thewater.
(37:24):
They're floating on the waterwith their heads up.
They don't use sound tocommunicate underwater.
They don't use sound to findfood.
They just dive down.
They use their little paws.
And they actually don't havevery good hearing sensitivity.
So, I'm not aware of anythingthat would suggest that they're
having an issue with shippingnoise.
And also, where they are, whichis really close to shore,
(37:46):
they're not typically wherethose big ships are.
I think if anything, it'sprobably disturbance would be
just from vessels going by anddisrupting resting groups of
animals is more of the concern.
Right.
Okay, well, that's good.
Yeah.
We don't have to worry aboutthat.
Yeah.
Take that one off the list.
Yeah.
So I guess just to kind offinish up here, if a listener is
just sitting at home and they'rejust dreaming about sea otters
(38:09):
and they're so excited to hearabout.
Successful recovery of seaotters or these issues between
sea otters and communities andhow we can find a way to make
this partnership work and havethese inhabit these same waters
together.
How can listeners get involvedwith sea otter recovery?
Well, I thought about that abit, and one thing is, sea
(38:29):
otters are doing just great ontheir own, so you know, unlike
other species, we haven't reallyneeded to help them along in
their recovery, but I think thesea otter story is informative
on a broader scale, and I hopewhat people can see is that the
sea otter story has shown us Ithink it's important to
recognize that the importance ofrecovering a top predator or
(38:51):
large mammal is the recovery ofthese ecosystem interactions.
I know that's a big mouthful,but these interactions between
species this cascade of effect.
It's like you mentioned with thewolves as well that it's not
just the recovery of the speciesitself.
But it's the recovery of a wholesuite of organisms and their
interactions, some of which wenever even knew existed.
(39:15):
And really, is that reallyvaluable?
Is that, is that something thatwe value?
And so, to take that idea, andto think about that when you
think about cougars, or mountcaribou, or wolves, or coyotes,
and when we think of theseanimals, you know, are they a
problem?
Or do we want them here?
Do we value the interactionsthat they create as well?
(39:38):
And so, what can I do to learnmore about that and maybe think
about those things and supportthose things where I see them
happening around me?
And the sea otter story can be astory, a lesson, in some of
these.
It's what can happen when aspecies is introduced at the
same time.
It's also a lesson in whenconflicts emerge.
And one thing I would say is, Ithink figuring out navigating
(40:02):
forward through these issues,these conflicts of sea otters
and fisheries and indigenoussubsistence harvest is going to
take us a lot of creativecontributions.
So that's one place.
And the final thing I thoughtabout, which is, climate change.
So, climate change reallymatters, and sea otters, Feed on
(40:24):
shellfish.
They feed on shellfish withcalcar shells.
And you touched on that withacidification.
Ocean acidification is probablygonna be a really big deal for
these animals because it's gonnaaffect their prey.
We don't know exactly what'sgonna happen, but ocean
acidification is gonna be a realproblem for hard shell prey.
So what is that gonna mean for asea otters food base?
So what that means is we all canhave a part in trying to do what
(40:49):
we can to combat climate changeand support or make choices that
may help us to reduce our carbonoutputs.
So sometimes the really bigthings can help little things.
And so those are just some broadthings that I can think of.
I love that.
And I love how you tied in,ocean acidification.
And 100 percent going to be adirect impact on sea otters and
(41:09):
how...
You can frame your thoughtprocess about climate change and
how you can frame it in havingspecific effects that you could,
that you could see and thinkingabout your actions.
If it's too broad of anexistential threat, you can
think of it as a more narrowframework of my decision is for
this, purpose.
That's, I love that.
(41:29):
That's really beautiful.
And my final question to you isjust what led you into this
career path and how did you getto where you are?
And what inspired you to goalong these roads?
I know I'm throwing this out atyou, but it's a fun one to end
with.
Well, I must say I'm incrediblylucky.
I spent my childhood.
Along the shores of the Straitof Georgia.
So I grew up out here and Ispent all my childhood And I had
(41:56):
a, just a full interest infascination about the marine
environment and marine mammalswere always intriguing and I
think it was because they werekind of rare, so I'm not that
old, but I could tell you thatwhen I was a kid in the 70s,
seeing a harbor seal was a bigdeal.
And the reason was because theharbor seal had been pushed to
(42:18):
very, very low levels by bountyhunting and commercial hunting.
So there was probably only 10,000 seals in BC.
So when we would see one fromthe shore, we'd be like, Oh my
goodness, this was reallyexciting.
So I kind of got this interestin marine mammals quite early
on.
And so I was fortunate enough topursue that and I did a master's
degree on killer whale foragingecology and then after many
(42:43):
years of doing various things,this opportunity to work on
remodels of fisheries and oceanscame up.
That's awesome.
And sounds like you're livingthe dream.
Well, you know, all dreams justsound like dreams.
There's not, you know, lifehas...
No, no, no, let's be clear.
Life has its has its scratchesand bumps.
I just gave you a, polishedsurface.
That's probably not true.
(43:04):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I like to say when people saythat they envision what I
typically do on a day to daybasis, it's, you can paint it
with whatever stroke you like,but the reality isn't always as
beautiful and as rose colouredglasses as many people would
like to imagine it as.
Right.
It's like Facebook.
Everybody makes the best, youknow, Facebook video.
Exactly, exactly.
(43:24):
Well, thank you so much forspeaking with me on the podcast
and I'm so excited to, to sharethis with listeners and to share
the story of the sea otterrecovery and, what we're doing
about it.
So thanks so much for your time.
Okay, that was great to talk toyou.
SOUND OF EXPLOSION
Thank you so much for listening to today's
episode.
And thank you so much, LindaNickel, for speaking with us
(43:47):
about so many topics, but reallyjust telling us the story of the
sea otter and why we shouldcare.
Now, if you want to knowanything else about sea otters
there'll be lots of notes in theshow description.
So please go down, check thoseout.
And be sure to just keep stayingcurious.
These amazing creatures arecoming back and you should go
visit them.
(44:07):
They're really, really cool.
My name is David Evans and I'mthe host and producer of the,
what are we doing podcast?
I'm just so excited to thank Allof the other support that I have
from the aquatic biosphereproject and the rest of the
team.
Big shout outs to Paula Pullmanand Dr.
Ross Shaw as they've been superhelpful.
Also, this episode was edited byLeanna Bresson from McEwen
university.
And thank you so much, Leanna,for all of your help throughout
(44:29):
this entire process.
Hey, if you're listening to thisas a podcast episode, be sure to
go check us out on YouTube.
This is also a video now.
Who knew it?
Thanks so much, and it's been asplash.
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