Arne Rubinstein: Rites of Passage

Rites of passage, once central to marking life’s transitions, have faded in modernity. As we navigate rising anxiety, social fragmentation, and a world where technology permeates nearly all aspects of our shared human experience, what role could a revival of rites of passage play in reclaiming our resilience and our capacity for social cohesion?

Dr Arne Rubinstein is the CEO and Founder of the Rites of Passage Institute. His goal is to make Rites of Passage mainstream once again. He has over 30 years experience as a medical doctor, counsellor, mentor, speaker and workshop facilitator. 

He has developed programs, seminars and camps attended by more than 350,000 people globally and has effectively implemented rites of passage frameworks into some of the largest schools in Australia.

His work emphasises the importance of recognising and reflecting on key moments in our lives and pausing to understand them deeply before moving forward.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I can still go for power and not take
responsibility for my actionsand want a mother.
It's all in me, but I now knowwhen I'm doing it.
So my aim is not to pretendthat I'm the perfect man.
My aim is to be spending moretime in man energy than boy
energy.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to Water People, a podcast about the
aquatic experiences that shapewho we become back on land.
I'm your host, lauren Hill,joined by my partner, dave
Rastovich.
Here we get to talk story withsome of the most interesting and
adept waterfolk on the planet.
We acknowledge the BundjalungNation, the traditional

(00:38):
custodians of the land andwaters where we work and play,
who have cared for this seacountry for tens of thousands of
years.
Respect and gratitude to allFirst Nations people, including
elders, past, present andemerging.
This season is supported byPatagonia, whose purpose-driven

(01:00):
mission is to use business tosave our home planet mission is
to use business to save our homeplanet.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Today we are in conversation with a good friend
and an incredible mentor to manyaround the world, dr Arne
Rubenstein.
Dr Arne is an internationallyrecognized expert on childhood
development and rites of passage, his programs, which are
incredible.
I've attended a teacher'straining workshop with Arna many
years ago and it really didimpact my life in the most

(01:29):
wonderful way.
And Arna's programs havereached more than 250,000 people
in more than 20 countriesaround the world and are now
part of over 50 schoolsthroughout Australia.
Arna's work is so important andso needed and we've seen in our
local community because Ana justlives up in the hills from
where we call home we've seenthat he's taught so many locals

(01:53):
how to take a moment and realizethat this moment in your life
is worth reflecting on, pausingand understanding deeply before
you move into the next moment inyour life.
And that rite of passage,mindset, that ability that anna
has to take you through a momentwhere, previous to this moment,
you're a different creature.

(02:15):
And now, moving through thismoment into the next, we will be
different, we will have changedin some way, and my experience
with Anna centers around therite of passage of becoming a
man, basically growing out ofbeing a boy, growing into being
a young man, and all of thosechallenges and opportunities

(02:35):
that lie within that experience.
And as a young surfer, I justwish I had known of Anna's work
and known Anna when I was ayoung kid.
But it's never too late.
And so here we are today havinga chat with an incredible human
who is really working hard forthe betterment of other people,
especially our young people inthe world.

(02:55):
We got a lot out of thisconversation and we hope that
you do too.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
We always begin the podcast by asking about a time
or experience after which youwere never the same.
Are you willing to share astory like that with us this
morning?

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Very happy to Thank you.
It's a very rite of passagequestion, because a rite of
passage question afterwardsyou're never the same and I was
actually thinking about theanswer to this.
And for me that story I'llshare is actually about leaving
Melbourne and moving up hereinto the Northern Rivers, into
Mullumbimby, and I've never beenthe same since I've moved up

(03:34):
here and I've actually been ableto live life the way I wanted
to live on the land, to live ina non-conventional house.
I lived in a bus for eightyears.
I lived in a teepee for threeyears.
I live in a shed now and it'scompletely different from the
life that I grew up living inMelbourne in a nice but

(03:55):
conventional house, I sort ofsay.
Nowadays we do lifenon-conventionally but really
well.
So, yeah, just moving up tothis area and finding my own
spirit and allowing that to comeout and seeing lots of other
people doing the same thing.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
What was it about convention that made you want to
choose something else?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I think I just saw convention as one option rather
than all of the options.
And I've had this saying for along time why be conventional
when there are so many othergreat options?
And for me, I didn't want togrow up, become a specialist
doctor, live in a certain housein a certain way, in a certain
community.

(04:32):
For me it was actuallyimportant.
I wanted to find my way, that Iwanted to do it.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
And yes.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
I did become a doctor , but then I left medicine,
which is actually quite a hardthing to do, and went deeply
into the rites of passage workand I really feel that's been my
calling, like I feel I'm one ofthe lucky ones I'm doing what I
believe I'm supposed to bedoing in this lifetime, and
being up here in the NorthernRivers really allowed me to find
that and I think if I'd stayedin Melbourne I probably wouldn't

(04:59):
have found that.
I would have had a verydifferent life path.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Who taught you how to take those big risks, found
that I would have had a verydifferent life path.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Who taught you how to take those big risks?
I don't know if I wasnecessarily taught.
I think I was just drawn tothat.
You know, I went overseas for ayear when I finished school and
I just saw there's a wholeworld out here and I want to
explore this world.
And part of exploring the worldis going out into the world.
And I didn't travel to sort ofeasy, conventional places like

(05:27):
England or, you know, america,which were quite similar to
Australia.
I went to out of the way placeslike the Middle East and parts
of Asia where they didn't speakEnglish, and it was that stuff
which always interested me themost different cultures,
different ways that people lived.
It just went on from there.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
It sort of snowballed were you practicing medicine in
melbourne before you left?

Speaker 1 (05:49):
uh, I graduated in 1989 and I actually went and did
my internship down at geelonggeelong hospital because I
wanted to surf and I went and Ilived down at jan jack up on the
cliffs above a break calledSteps and lived down there for a
couple of years and then Imoved up here two years later
and worked up here and startedpractice, opened up a practice

(06:12):
here.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
I've always enjoyed remembering when you shared with
me years ago about just thatexperience of being in medicine
and being in the system andworking in ER spaces or first
responding units, something likethat.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Was that down there also before you came here?

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, In Victoria.
I worked in hospitals, generalpractice, emergency medicine,
delivered babies for a while,and I always say that medicine
is actually one of the nobleprofessions and I am a doctor,
my father's a doctor, my unclethe noble professions and I am a
doctor, my father's a doctor,my uncle's a doctor, my
brother's a doctor, it's in myhands.
So the profession is noble.

(06:52):
But unfortunately the system isnot noble and I became very
frustrated with the whole system.
That was, you know, for what Isaw a lot more based around
volume of patients, you know,running an effective business so
you could make more money, and,you know, overuse of
pharmaceuticals andinterventions, and I was like

(07:13):
it's not actually quite what Iwant to be doing and we're not
even quite what I want to bedoing.
And then, when I started doingthe rites of passage work, you
know, I could see how it reallychanged lives and so I actually
consider I'm still a doctor,except instead of working in the
system doing curative medicine,I'm working outside the system
doing preventative medicine.

(07:33):
And that's something that reallyappeals to me.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, I remember you speaking to that when you'd say
that you were seeing, you know,young men and older men coming
in having, you know, attemptedto take their life or self-harm
in different ways, or reallystruggling in different ways,
and you having kind of a, anepiphany or a moment where you
saw that you were working at thelike, the symptoms and the the

(07:55):
other end of this process.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, there's an over representation of young
men in emergency departments andwhether they've self-harmed
deliberately or just donesomething completely stupid.
I mean, there's that thingwhere young men anything to do
with wheels, speed, jumpingheight, they just can't stay
away from it.
And where it gets reallyinteresting is if they create a

(08:19):
jump or a ramp or whatever theydo, and they land it immediate.
Next thing they do is go backand make it bigger and higher
and harder and it can only endin one way and eventually they
end up hurting themselves.
You know, and can do that very,very seriously, and I used to
ask myself, you know, what arethey trying to do?
And I also worked up hereduring schoolies for many years

(08:39):
in the emergency department andyou know, I just saw legions of
young men and young women comingthrough the emergency
department and I actuallyrealized that they are trying to
move into the world of adults.
But there's no boundaries,there's no facilitation, there's
no support.
So give them access to alcohol,they'll get blind drug.
Give them access to drugs,they'll take way too much.

(09:00):
Put them in a party mode,they'll get stupid and go and
jump off the roof somewhere orget into a fight.
You know, put them in a car andthey'll bloody, slide around
the corners and have accidents.
And I was like, wow, this is.
There's something reallyfundamentally wrong here.
And you know, our young men aredoing things that are going to
impact them for the rest oftheir lives.

(09:21):
And even looking back on my ownlife, I did lots of stupid
things when I was a teenager andthey're so stupid when I look
back on them that I cringe andI'm like what is that innate
need in young men to actually bepushed to actually find their
limits, find their boundaries,actually even face death.
But they shouldn't be doing iton their own, creating their own

(09:43):
thing.
It's actually something that weas a community, I believe, have
a responsibility to bring intotheir lives in a way that they
grow and learn from, rather thansomething that has disastrous
lifelong consequences.
And similarly with girls, by theway, I saw so many girls coming
into emergency as well, andespecially during schoolies,

(10:03):
girls who'd, for the for thefirst time, been away from home,
you know, in an apartment, nosupervision, access to alcohol,
access to drugs, and they'd getdrunk and often they'd do
something they'd never donebefore while they were drunk,
with someone they'd never met.
And I'd see them the nextmorning in the emergency
department and they were goingto regret that for the rest of
their lives.
So you know, I also identifiedthere was a difference between

(10:30):
the behaviors of the boys andthe girls.
The boys would go out and dothe stupidest thing they could,
whereas the girls would sort ofinternalize and then get into
the most trouble that they could.
And what was also reallyinteresting in that was, I would
say to the girls did you knowbefore whatever you did that it
was not a good idea?
Did you know it was going to gobadly?
Was there any sort of voice inthere?
And the girls did know they hadthat voice, but they did it

(10:50):
anyway.
And so I believe if we did onething for girls which was teach
them to listen to that innervoice, that inner knowing, that
would be extraordinary.
And I'd also say to the boysyou know, did you know before
you did whatever that was notgoing to go well, it was going
to end badly.
The boys would look at me andthey'd go no, they didn't even
think about it, they just sawglory.

(11:11):
So that's also worth Can yourelate.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Is that why the deep laugh?

Speaker 3 (11:18):
I don't know what you're talking about?

Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, but that's also worth knowing.
So if we think about how do wework with our boys and girls, we
need to take those sorts ofthings into account for what we
can do to support them throughthis such critical time, those
teenage years when they've hitpuberty, and those next five or
six years.
If that's managed well, asopposed to if it's a disaster

(11:42):
that completely can change thetrajectory of the rest of their
lives yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
It's such an interesting time, such a tricky
time, to be bringing upteenagers.
Maybe it always has been, butright now, like in universities
for example, we've reversed thegender performance gap since the
70s.
In the 70s it was 40% women,60% men, and now it's the
opposite.
Men are underperforming,historically speaking, in

(12:08):
academic settings, and I feellike that's symptomatic of the
way that women's roles haveexpanded.
Opportunities have expanded inreally wonderful ways.
Expectations have expanded, butmaybe that hasn't happened in
the same way for men and boysand maybe there is not a lot of
clarity around the expectationsof masculinity at this

(12:29):
particular moment in time.
Are you seeing that?

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Absolutely.
Boys are lost.
It's such a difficult time tobe a young man.
They're being told that the oldmodel doesn't work.
And then they've got multiplealgorithms on their social media
that they're all completelyhooked on that.
You know, range everywhere fromyou know Andrew Tate to you
know be sensitive and so on.

(12:52):
You know it's a completeconfusion.
I went into Coles recently and Iwas looking for some Epsom
salts and there was a boy behindthe counter.
I said to him, do you have anyEpsom salts?
And he goes uh, I'm not sure.
And then there was a girl.
I said you know, do you haveany Epsom salts?
And he goes yeah, they'rehalfway down aisle five on the
left below such and such.
I'll go with you and I'll showyou where they are.
And I was like, wow, you know.

(13:15):
You know, in some ways girls aredoing very well and boys are
really struggling.
But even that, you know,there's this whole thing.
They talk about toxicmasculinity with boys, which is
all the influences and I'd loveto come back to some of the sort
of the roots of that but withgirls now we're talking about
toxic perfectionism, where thegirls are believing they have to

(13:37):
be perfect, they have to beperfectly made up.
They have to look a certain way, they have to act a certain way
.
They have to be nice, they haveto be good.
They have to look a certain way, they have to act a certain way
.
They have to be nice, they haveto be good, they have to know
everything, and that is creatingso much stress and anxiety.
That's off the charts.
So you know, the research hasshown that the mental health of
young people is by far the worstit's ever been.

(13:59):
And it's very hard for me tofind out the exact figures
because schools won't give it tome, but somewhere between 30%
and 45% of high school studentsare on daily medication just to
go to school, and in someschools in America it's over 50%
.
Now what is that about when 30%to 50% of our kids have to have

(14:20):
medication just to be able toget to school each day?

Speaker 2 (14:24):
I was looking into Dan Cox research.
His work highlights the growingsocial isolation and loneliness
for boys and men.
In particular, One of his stats15% of men under the age of 30
say they don't have a singlefriend.
So I feel like that just speaksto the way that boys and men
are feeling lost.
Boys and men are retreating.
Boys and men are falling intothese algorithm traps and

(14:47):
everything is just.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
But you don't have to have friends anymore because
you can just do the whole thingonline.
You can create an avatar sopeople just see you the way you
want them to see you, not whoyou actually are.
And you can have 10,000 friends50,000 friends on social media
platforms, can have 10,000friends 50,000 friends on social

(15:09):
media platforms and you canspend your evenings killing
people and letting out youranger and playing games that
have you know sex woven intothem, like Grand Theft Auto.
You know it's quiteextraordinary, and so boys are
just getting lost in their roomson their computers.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Why are boys especially susceptible?
Because we know girls obviouslyare using this technology too.
The mental health impacts arehappening, but just maybe in
different ways.
So what is it about where we'reat with masculinity and manhood
that makes this yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
I mean it's always going to be complex.
But these issues didn't startwhen computers and phones came
around, but it's definitelyaccentuated them.
And so we've thrown into themix.
Every boy you know over the ageof about 11 now has a mobile
phone with social media andaccess to anything and

(15:57):
everything.
And so they all access anythingand everything, and those
devices are completely addictive.
So no matter how beautiful andwonderful your boy is, he has
basically a highly addictivedrug in his hand.
So that's definitely not ahelping thing.
And then on top of that, you'vegot the whole breakdown of what
healthy role models are.
And boys need older men, Ibelieve, to be in their lives,

(16:19):
to teach them, to show them, totalk to them, to share stories
with them, all these things.
But nowadays, if an older manpays attention to young boys, we
look on them suspiciously.
So you know, men are a lot lesslikely to say to a kid who
lives next door hey, come, andyou know I'll show you how to do
woodworking in the shed and howto use power tools and tell you
stories about when I wasgrowing up, those things that

(16:41):
used to happen.
I used to go over the road tothe old man over there and we
used to call him uncle, you know, uncle Laurie, and he was just
a beautiful man and most men are.
But because of the tragicactions of a few we've lost that
whole mentoring thing andinstead of, you know, having
community where we recognizethat elders are as important as
the young, we're a much moreisolated community.

(17:03):
So the young tend to hang outtogether, the middle-aged hang
out together, the elders hangtogether.
It's not actually a healthyecosystem.
Everyone in the ideal scenariois mixed together.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
We see that, the microcosm of that in school, how
we group kids by age, and whatyou see play out sometimes is
everyone in the class trying tocompete for the like to occupy
the same niche, and it becomesvery competitive correct in the
way that mixed age classroomsoperate very differently yeah,

(17:37):
so you know I I talk about.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
It's like there's a staircase and each step on the
staircase is a different stageof life and when it mixes it's
the same in nature.
When you get a big enough mix,then it actually creates a
healthy ecosystem.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
When you have only one product, like all sugarcane
or all salmon in a net, that'swhen you get disease, that's
when you get the salmon actuallystarting to eat each other and
all these problems that occur bynot having a healthy ecosystem
so I feel like we've been on thediagnosis, you know,
acknowledging what the problemsare, in the last 10 minutes of

(18:14):
chatting, which is reallyimportant to do, but I would
also like to dive into wherewe're getting it right, before
we go right into your work too,because right now we have one of
our nephews who's here.
He's in his early 20s and he wascurious to know, from your
perspective, I guess, wherewe're getting it right in some
spaces to a degree, and he comesfrom Tassie.

(18:36):
He's an avid sailor and we loveour Finn.
He's just a champion of a youngman and he he grew up in a
heavily sport-centric cultureTassie, victoria, football and
he was wanting to know yourperspective on sport and the
role sport is playing in thiscountry, and perhaps from there
we can illuminate any otherareas where you feel like we are

(18:57):
getting it somewhat good orsomewhat right.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Great, somewhat right , great.
Well, we're getting it right bythe fact that your 20-year-old
nephew is here staying with youand can hear your stories and
can go sailing with you and cango surfing with you and can just
hang out, you know, with youand Lauren and Minua and be part
of a healthy family that'sliving positively.
So, on a micro level, the morethat we can be inviting our

(19:23):
extended family and theirchildren and friends into our
spaces and just being with themis really good.
I'm also seeing some reallystrong shifts in the education
system where I work a lot, kidsspend more time at school than
anywhere else system where Iwork a lot, kids spend more time
at school than anywhere else.
And there is slowly a shifthappening where the research is

(19:43):
showing and schools arerecognising that education has
to be a lot more than justproviding an academic outcome at
the end of year 12.
In fact, the research showsthat your academic outcome is
not the main determinant of yourfuture success.
So we're seeing more and moreschools now who are recognising
we have responsibility to teachour children resilience, to

(20:05):
teach them adaptability, toteach them emotional
intelligence, to support them tofind a vision to support them,
to find who they are, what'simportant to them, what they're
passionate about, and especiallywith the sort of the younger
generation of leaders andheadmasters coming through the
schools, there is definitely ashift there and I see that as

(20:27):
being a really, really healthything and I think there is a
growing awareness also slowly,but it's happening, because I'm
sort of slowly seeing the uptickthat the sort of the antidote
to technology and the hugeinfluence of technology is human
experiences.
So just spending time together,having dinners without the

(20:50):
mobile phones at the table,being in the car and sharing
stories, I think there isdefinitely an awareness and an
interest.
You know, I think it's beenrecognised that the whole social
media has been a failedexperiment and I don't want to
go back into the problems, butmore and more people are
genuinely looking for thesolutions and come to the
conclusion that we need to bespending time together, we need

(21:12):
to be checking in, and when youask someone how they are, the
answer good or not bad is notsufficient.
You ask someone how they are,the answer good or not bad is
not sufficient.
You're properly checking on howyou are and people sharing
stories, spending time in nature.
I think that's where the greatopportunity lies, for me.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yeah, I've often fantasized that when our nephews
and nieces see theirgrandparents sort of generation
sitting on the couch watching TVwith an iPad on their lap and
an iPhone next to them, there'slike three screens in front of
them and they're addicted toFacebook, that that is enough of
a deterrent for the youngergeneration to be like I don't
want to be doing that and maybethere is a swing of the pendulum

(21:51):
that's going to happen becauseof seeing those older
generations addicted to facebookand that kind of daily
consumption of that worldcorrect, and we are, in our work
, hearing from more and moreyoung people who are talking
about wanting to restrict theirtime online, and so the early
adopters and I'd say that's thestage you're at are seeing that

(22:14):
they will actually do better ifthey spend less time, you know,
with screens open in front ofthemselves.
Is surfing something that youfeel is getting it right in some
ways.
Like you know, it's naturallygot what you're talking about
inherently in it.
Where you're in nature, you'removing your body, you're

(22:35):
shoulder to shoulder, you can'ttake out the tech in the lineup.
Well, actually, funnily enough,I saw a guy the other day just
down the beach here who had earpod things in and he was going
to surf seven mile here, not asoul around, and he was dealing
with whatever it was he waslistening to and and dealing
with while he was surfing, whichtripped me out.
But most of us are going outand we're in the lineup with

(22:56):
each other and sometimes that'shealthy and sometimes it's not.
And I know, lauren, you hadsome questions around this and
maybe, because we are all surfrats, we can dive into that for
a moment.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, I'd love to hone in on surf culture and the
sort of like aggressive,patriarchal vibe that we've had
in the culture Lineups of thepast.
There would be a guy, anenforcer.
He would punch out fins, hewould send people to the beach,
he would threaten people withviolence if things weren't going
the way he thought they shouldbe going in the lineup, and so

(23:28):
we've mostly moved past that asa culture mostly, but I feel
like we are still in a placewhere another story, another
narrative of respectful orderand taking responsibility for
our shared spaces hasn't emerged, and so I wanted to ask you,
arna, about that space.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, I think you two could probably answer the
question about the surf culturea lot better than me.
Unfortunately, I see the surf.
It's extremely crowded thesedays and very competitive.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Chaotic really the best.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Surfers tend to take as many of the ways as they can,
and I mean at least one of thethings about Byron Bay.
I definitely find when we'reout in the surf and there's a
good number of women that thevibe is very, very different.
I still find them, especiallythe male surf culture it's
pretty aggressive, prettycompetitive.
You know a guy will get a wave.
I might be sitting therewaiting, but if he can paddle

(24:20):
around me and get the next waveagain, you know, he's going to
do it.
So it's a shame, because thereis a great opportunity in the
surf culture to be sort of thereare some places where people
will take turns and share andacknowledge when someone you
know surfs well or a kid does agood turn or something.
But that's my feeling I don'tknow, what do you guys?

Speaker 3 (24:41):
think you could do better because the way and you
you hinted at this us perhapsknowing more intricately how
that space is going, and I oftentalk with friends when I'm
surfing around here, when we'rejust in a quiet corner of the
coast and there's only a coupleof us and you can yarn between
waves and give waves to eachother and hoot and holler and
everything I speak about withthem how in other parts of the

(25:03):
world, like hawaii, you don'tget not all of hawaii, but in a
lot of the lineups you don't getthat kind of hooting and
hollering and support, overtsupportiveness of each other,
where you're like yeah, man,that was a great wave, how great
that you got so barreled, andthere's a lot that is lost when
we don't do that.
And so I'm just thinking oflike examples that might come to

(25:24):
your mind where or how we coulddo better.
Because I see that as one waywhere we can do better in
lineups when we we cut throughany tension in the lineup by
hooting someone when they gopast you and being stoked for
them, and then they'll probablybe inclined to do the same for
you when you get a nice wave.
And there are other ways whereyou've seen in your work, where

(25:44):
you you understand through.
So much of your work is aboutsitting with people and like
acknowledging each other, and ina lot of lineups what we don't
do well is acknowledge eachother, and I'm a shocker for
that.
In crowd lineups I usuallypaddle really wide.
I don't acknowledge anyone, Ijust want to get a few waves and
then get out of there quitequickly.
But surely there's got to be abetter way for us to do that.

(26:05):
Have you got any ideas on?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
yeah, I mean, I personally, every time I see a
kid who gets away when they'repaddling back out, I'll say that
was really good or what youknow, just acknowledging the
kids first of all.
And the other thing I've learnedthis thing that when there's a
guy who's trying to paddlearound me, when I'm clearly, you
know, should have so-calledpriority, and they're trying to
paddle, we're both paddling I'llturn to him, I'll go hey, how

(26:27):
you going today?
You got a few waves and it'sextraordinary I see them.
Stop trying.
So just creating that smallconnection of hey, I'm a person,
you're a person, I'm asking youhow you are, and they'll say
something then, all of a suddenthey're not trying to paddle
around me.
You know, like if I'm a completestranger you'd probably try and
paddle around me, but if we'reout together and we know each
other, we're not going to tryand paddle around.

(26:47):
So creating that connection isa really big thing.
But I'm also I've been longtime interested in how back in
the sort of 60s and 70s wherepeople were on long boards, it
was about how far could you goon the wave and at the end you'd
turn around and they'd sort ofbow to the wave and then the
whole short and you know, listento that sort of music and the
whole short board culture whichis pretty rah, rah, rah, and you

(27:10):
get a wave and you slash backagainst the wave as hard as you
can and if they make it to theend of the wave, they sort of
they make it to the end of thewave they sort of give it a.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
It's like a fuck you sort of thing.
Yeah, I know it's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
And so you know that's the actual who says fuck
you to a wave.
That's just done that.
But you know, I do think thereare some inherent issues in
there and it's quite a hardthing to do, I know.
For me personally, my mainpriority when I go surfing now
is somewhere that's not crowdedQuality.
My main priority when I gosurfing now is somewhere that's
not crowded.
Quality of ways can be way down, but if it's not crowded and
I'm with a few mates, it's likefor me that's totally worth it.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
In your book, arna and also I've heard you speak
about this in a few differentplaces you clarify the
difference between boypsychology and man psychology.
I feel like we see a lot ofmostly one more than the other
at play in the lineup.
Can you talk us through thedifference?

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, sure.
Well, boy psychology is whereI'm the center of the universe.
It's all about me.
I just want to get as many waysI can.
I don't care about anyone else.
You know I want power and ifI'm a better surfer, I'll just
take as much as I can.
I take no responsibility for myactions.
I'll drop in on someone andthen tell them to rack off.

(28:23):
Boy psychology is I want amother to do everything for me
and I often look at the ocean assort of like is the ultimate
mother energy and can be quiteabusive towards the ocean.
That's sort of directly into asurfing analogy.
And healthy man psychology isI'm actually part of the
universe, I'm part of thiscommunity and my actions affect
others.
And if I'm in that space thenI'm going to be sharing waves

(28:45):
and encouraging others.
And if I have power, it doesn'tmean more for me, it means I
can do more good in my community.
And, wow, I could actuallyteach and support some of the
people who are coming up in thewhole thing and I can still get
plenty of waves.
Man psychology you know, if I dosomething wrong I have to admit
it.
Like if I drop in on someone Ineed to say sorry, not not be

(29:07):
angry with them because I'vedropped in on them.
And also, you know, I'm notafter a mother, I'm after a
relationship.
So surfing is all about havinga relationship with the ocean.
It's actually a lot more aboutthan just the waves being out
there, seeing the birds, lookingat the beauty, you know,
hooting other people who do well.
So you know, I see a lot of boypsychology out there.

(29:28):
I see, actually sometimes thereare guys sitting in the lineup
and they're just angry.
They're just angry and theydon't even want the whole wave,
they just want the steep takeoffand a few turns and then
they're off and leave the restof the wave.
Who cares?
It's like they're just goingfor that thing.
They're not making love to thewave, they're just taking what
they can get and then go for thenext one.

(29:53):
We see that played out a lot inyoung men's behaviours.
And because we've got nowonline dating and things like
that, the whole dating thing isno longer about how can I meet
someone who I relate to and havea relationship with and maybe
end up having sex with them.
If it's really right and evenbetter, making love, it can be
now just get on your phone,swipe, left until you find

(30:15):
someone, go out with them, havesex, never see them again.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Transactional, Transactional.
It's extraordinary I found thisstat 51% of men aged 18 to 24
have never asked a woman out inperson.
How does that change socialdynamics?
When our boys are going toforget how to be with someone in
person.
I mean our girls too, but I wasjust really shocked by that be

(30:38):
with someone in person.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
I mean our girls too, but I was just really shocked
by that.
Yeah, well, thankfully we gotsurfing.
That's how we've met and how somany great relationships we
know have started.
Anna, I really have quoted youfor years.
When I am sitting with a nephewor younger grommet or someone
my own age too, we're having aproper talk, and I love your

(31:00):
line about the differencebetween being a man and a boy is
that when you're a man, youknow when you're acting like a
boy.
Yeah.
I think that just cuts throughthe crap so well.
Is there more you can speak towhen we say that to each other?
Because I feel like I've saidthat to friends over the last
decade since I came up to theland and was with you with one

(31:24):
of your training courses, and Ijust have found that so useful.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, the model I talked about earlier about the
difference between a boy and aman.
And what I say is that now thatI am technically a man, I
actually do know when I'mbehaving like a boy and I can't
pretend I'm the perfect man.
I can still act like I'm thecenter of the universe and I can
still go for power and not takeresponsibility for my actions
and want a mother.
It's all in me.
But I now know when I'm doingit.

(31:51):
So my aim is not to pretendthat I'm the perfect man.
My aim is to be spending moretime in man energy than boy
energy, and be spending moretime in man energy than boy
energy, and more and more timein man energy and less and less
time in boy energy.
Yeah, it's still with me, but Ido know.
And because I know, I then havethe potential to choose to not

(32:12):
stay in that behaviour and moveinto the man.
And then the other thing I'vedone since I saw you there on
the land and been working on nowthat I'm 61 years old, if I is
I've extended the model from boyto man, to elder, and I would
say that elder is as differentfrom man as man is from boy.
So, for example, where boy isabout power and man is about

(32:35):
building empires.
Elder is, I don't want to buildempires anymore.
It's much more about beingpeaceful, mentoring and
supporting the next generationas they're coming up, and it's
no longer about being right orwrong as an elder, it's about
just being present.
So that's something that I'mreally exploring, this whole

(32:57):
thing about how to be a healthyelder.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
That's fast.
That's really fascinating.
Is there an age that you, like,can generally look at where
that starts to emerge, thatelder role?

Speaker 1 (33:09):
well, I actually think it starts to emerge
somewhere in the mid 40s and Ithink also a bit technical here
that there is a stage betweenman and elder.
And it's that time between youknow, let's say early mid-40s,
to you know 60, early 60s, and Icall it magi, which is the Sufi

(33:31):
word for wizard, and in thatspace you've got one foot in
elder and you've got one foot inman.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
So you know, Is that why the crisis?
Why the midlife crisis?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
well, it's definitely part of it.
Yeah, but in magic I'm stillstrong enough, but I'm not
strong like I was when I was 25and I've got some wisdom, but I
don't have the wisdom of a youknow, a great grandfather.
So it's actually a reallybeautiful, powerful time and we
can do a lot of good in thatspace.
But once again, one of theroles of the elders is to keep

(34:06):
those in the middle ages and inpower kind of in check.
And when we don't have healthyelders, the ones who then get
into positions of power actuallyend up becoming megalomaniacs
and it becomes all about them.
And I've got power.
So now how much power can I get?
And you know, once again, thatfor me, is what we see with the
breakdown of having the healthystages and the entire community

(34:29):
together.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
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(36:15):
Primal Water by Alkaway.
You've said that the world iscurrently run by uninitiated men
.
Can you elaborate on that?

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Well, I'm not allowed to say any names because people
get upset about it, but there'sa few around.
They think they're the centre ofthe universe.
Even this thing about ourcountry, it's just about our
country.
Make our country the greatestcountry and ignore all the other
countries.
I mean, we are one world.
You know that's a behaviour ofan unhealthy leader, a leader

(36:47):
who can never admit that they'rewrong, who's happy to you know,
prepared to just lie publiclyand defend that and then attack
people who disagree with them.
You know a leader who wouldthink that there's just
unlimited resources in the earth, or don't worry if they're
unlimited, but we need them now,so we'll just take it now and
not worry about the future.
I think leaders who areprepared to go to war you know
how is it in?

(37:07):
You know these days that we canstill think it's okay, when
we've got a problem, to go outand kill the other person or to
kill as many of them as we canthat to me they are boys running
the world them as we can, thatto me they are boys running the
world.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
What you're saying is really radical, though You're
saying in the past we very muchequated masculinity with a kind
of aggression, violence.
It's very.
Masculinity has been, in amainstream way, woven into
militarism and powerful leaderswho take a particular way of
managing the people around them.
But what you're saying is maybethat is counter.
Those things are actuallycounter to this emerging idea of

(37:44):
what masculinity should be,what it means to be a man now.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, well, one of the things is we, and you know,
rites of passage are aboutwhat's needed now, not what was
needed, you know, 200 years ago.
So 200 years ago, if I lived ina, in a jungle or in a forest
or whatever and I was a man, Iwas probably going to end up
becoming a hunter or a warriorand I needed to defend my, my
family and my community and Ineeded to go out and catch food

(38:09):
and provide, and it was a prettyclear thing then.
And so what they would do, therites passage were, you know,
appropriate to that.
I think our biggest challengetoday is how are we going to
keep this world alive, how arewe going to not destroy it and
have major catastrophe?
How can we make it so that wedon't have a half or two thirds
of the world's population, youknow, not having access to

(38:32):
sufficient medical care, cleandrinking water, safety?
You know that's what we shouldbe doing.
We have all the resources andall the knowledge and all the
capacity and all thetechnological capability to have
the most incredible, beautiful,peaceful, loving world, and yet
we have major wars raging inmultiple parts of the world.

(38:55):
It's just extraordinary.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
To me.
That leads me to the start ofthis.
So the rite of passage as a boyto man and for people listening
because we jumped forward tothe elder sort of rite of
passage.
We didn't really dig into thatyet, but I'd like to backtrack
to what we look for in our youngboys at that age where they're

(39:20):
about to transition from beingyoung boys to young men, what to
look out for and then whatoptions.
We have to do something in thatmoment where we need to
acknowledge that time in theirlife so that in a couple decades
, when those kids who are now 10years old are in their 30s and
40s, we don't just have anotherwave of megalomaniacs and boys

(39:44):
trying to run the world.
So what do we look for andwhere can we go to bring our
boys to a rite of passage?

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Well, look, I've always believed the interesting
thing is that every Indigenouscommunity recognised you have to
do something with your boys tosupport and assist that
transition from boy to young manand it had to be appropriate to
the community then.
And if they were going tobecome warriors and hunters,
they would do something whichwould include a challenge where

(40:13):
the boy had to face severe painor potential of death.
Because that was appropriatethen.
And I think today there aredifferences but there are strong
similarities.
Our boys are still going tomove from boy to man, but we
live in a very diverse communityand what we can't do is say if
you're going to be a good man,you have to drink lots of beer

(40:35):
or you have to drink no beer.
We can't say you have to dressa certain way.
We can't say you have to dressa certain way.
We can't say you have to havecertain beliefs.
It is very much about who areyou and one of the big things,
by the way, in the Indigenouscommunities was that they
believe that every boy and girlis born with a spirit, or you
can call it natural gifts andtalents, and the role of the

(40:56):
elders and the carers and theparents is to help that child
find their spirit and find theirgifts and bring that out into
the world, and I believe thatdoesn't change over time.
So we have to be looking atways that we can support our
young people to find out whothey are, but also to live by

(41:18):
values rather than directives.
So a directive is you know howyou have to dress, what you can
drink, what music you have tohear.
I believe that's very unhealthy.
A value is you know, anunderstanding that you're a part
of a community, beingrespectful to the people within
your community, having awarenessabout what's going on with you.
So I believe the work has to bebased on values and that there

(41:43):
is actually a model and aframework to create healthy
rites of passage, whether it'sfor boys or for girls.
That model in involves taking aperiod of time to actually
acknowledge that this transitionis occurring and taking those
young ones out of their everydaylife, away from home, away from

(42:04):
school, and it probably happensaround puberty or in the couple
of years after puberty, sosomewhere between 13 and 17,.
Having a dedicated period oftime to put them through a
transition and say, in thisperiod of time we're going to
acknowledge the fact that you'vemoved from a big child to a
young adult and you're going tobe, you're starting your journey
as an adult and then in thattime, for them to be in the

(42:27):
presence of elders and to havean opportunity to hear the
stories of the elders, so itcan't be the elders aren't there
to lecture the kids about howthey're supposed to be.
The elders need to be there toshare their stories and let the
kids hear what went well forthem, where they mucked up and
got in trouble and failed.
You know all of those variousstories.

(42:47):
They have to hear stories aboutrelationships and sex, you know
.
Otherwise they're going tolearn it from porn online and
believe that what they're seeingis real and that's how they're
supposed to be.
So the whole sharing of storiesis really important.
We have to create healthychallenges for the young ones so
that they're not going out andcreating their own in cars or
drugs or fights and things likethat.

(43:08):
We have to do a process wherewe actually support the young
ones to create a vision for whatsort of adult they want to be,
what values are important tothem, what sort of relationships
do they want to be?
What values are important tothem?
What sort of relationships dothey want to have?
And, by the way, when you getyoung people in this sort of
environment, take away theirphones for a period of time,
ideally do it in nature, sharestories, do a challenge and then

(43:30):
ask them what sort of adultsthey want to be.
The answers they give you arebeautiful, are profound, are
incredibly deep.
It's in these kids.
We just don't see it whenthey're in this ultra
competitive, mobile phone driven, whatever environment.
So they're the first threethings a story, or sharing

(43:51):
stories, an appropriatechallenge or challenges,
creation of a vision.
And then the fourth one is theelders recognising and naming
the gifts talent, genius andspirit that they see in each of
the young ones.
And when we do that, when weget a teenage boy or a teenage
girl and then, in front of acommunity, their parent and

(44:12):
other elders and even theirpeers, tell them what gifts they
see in them, what they're proudof, what they love about them
that changes their lives.
And what we're actually sayingis we admire, are proud of and
love you, for you, for being you.
We don't want you to pretend tobe like you're something else.
We actually see you have thesegifts and we want these gifts

(44:34):
coming out into the community,and when we do that share
stories, create a challenge,make a vision and honour their
gifts and their spirit, thatcreates an incredible
transformation.
And then the only other finalstep, which is critically
important, is that the widercommunity knows that they've
been through this and isinvolved with it, and is able to

(44:58):
actually recognise that we'renow dealing with a young adult
rather than a child.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
So amazing.
I remember back to being on themountain there with a bunch of
men and being led by you, Anna,and specifically that moment
where you sit down and you havesomeone being seen and the you
know, the uncles and the dad andthe other men sitting around
and acknowledging those giftsand that person.

(45:25):
One of the things that reallystuck with me from that was how
you would ask people to saynothing when they receive those
comments and supportive commentsfrom everyone, and I really
latched onto that because I'venoticed that I've always done
that in my life where someonemight say something
complimentary to me and I willtry and avoid it Basically yeah

(45:48):
basically deflect it throughthinking I'm being humble, but
what I'm actually doing whensomeone says hey man, I really
like that.
You did that thing for me theother day and I'll say oh yeah,
it's nothing, no worries, don'tworry about it, or that kind of
thing Off the cuff statement.
It's so subliminal, it's sounconscious.
You just say it thinking you'rebeing humble, but actually what

(46:09):
you taught me was by sayingnothing, just hearing it, or
even just saying thank you atthe end.
It gave me the experience whereI was hearing people say
something kind to me andacknowledging that they had
perhaps opened up and beenvulnerable enough to share a
feeling they had, perhaps a deepfeeling they had with me,

(46:31):
instead of saying oh no, worries, don't worry about it, and just
dismissing their moment ofbeing vulnerable and kind and
considerate.
Just hearing people andactually taking a moment to stop
and look at them in the eye andsay thank you, thanks for that
kind word, and then just movingon.
I found that really helpful andI really hope that this
conversation will leave peoplewith those kind of tools.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
I can't tell you how many boys have spoken to me at
the end of that in the work I doand said I've never had anybody
say that stuff to me.
All I ever get told is how shitI am.
You know, and we look at theproblems.
When kids are just being toldall their problems, that doesn't
bring out the healthy side ofthem.
But when we actually can honortheir gifts and their genius and

(47:15):
their spirit and really liftthem up, you just see a
different kid.
And there is one other thing Ido want to go to.
If we're going to be going toelders, I need to say it first,
because I've been sort of, youknow, exploring rites of passage
and the different elements ofrites of passage and
particularly what happens whenwe don't have healthy rites of
passage.
And something I'm reallyinterested in you know we talk a

(47:36):
lot about boys but we can't,you know, the girls' rites of
passage.
They're part of you know, theyimpact very much and what I see
is when we don't have rites ofpassage for boys or girls, I've
come to realize that, you know,initially one of the key aims of
a boy's rite of passage was tohumble them.

(47:58):
They were humbled by theexperience and with girls, their
rites of passage were differentand they were empowered by
their experience.
And when we don't create ritesof passage, when the boys don't
get humbled, they end upentitled and arrogant.
They end up thinking it's allabout them, they all.
They end up thinking that womenare just for their use and

(48:21):
pleasure.
And when the girls don't gothrough a healthy rite of
passage and don't get empowered,instead they become small and
think that they're not asimportant or they're not as good
or they have to acquiesce towhatever.
And so you know, for me that'swhere we end up in a society

(48:42):
that's ruled by boys and girlsnot having, you know, women not
having appropriate influence, asopposed to what I believe is a
world that's run by good men andpowerful women together.
And I guess you know I evenextend that to you know we
obviously have a lot ofdiversity now.
We have gender diversity andmuch more recognition there.

(49:04):
And the other thing about ahealthy rite of passage is it
helps a person discoverthemselves and be recognized by
their community.
And once again, when we don'thave rites of passage, there's a
whole percentage of ourcommunity who are struggling to
be comfortable or to know whothey are and are completely not

(49:26):
recognized by their community,and that creates a whole huge
set of issues for them as well.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Maybe many of us are familiar with the concept of a
rite of passage from thetransition of being a child into
being a young adult.
What about the rites of passagethat would have happened in
traditional cultures at otherstages, other phases of life?
Can you speak to those?

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah well, rites of passage are basically to support
a person going through atransformation from one stage of
life to the next, and so thereare many rites of passage.
When we leave home, it's a riteof passage.
When we, if we get into arelationship, it's a rite of
passage.
If we become a parent, it's arite of passage.
If we get a new job or get apromotion in our job, that's a
rite of passage.

(50:09):
When we stop working, that's arite of passage.
When we stop working, it's arite of passage.
When we become an elder, whenwe're dying and in a traditional
community, all of those stageswould be managed in a healthy
way through healthy rites ofpassage and when we don't do
them, all of those things caninstead become really traumatic.
Becoming an adult can betraumatic.
Leaving home can be traumatic.

(50:30):
Getting into a relationship canbe traumatic.
Having a child leaving work Alot of people leave work and
they're completely lost and feellike they're no longer valid or
worthy and that can betraumatic.
So the question is thereforearound how can we be creating
healthy rites of passage at allof those stages?

(50:52):
And I've recently turned 60, or18 months ago now.
So I'm well into my 60s andthere was nothing that I saw
that would really support me inthat transition into the early
stages of elderhood.
So I actually created my ownrites of passage because you
know for me and you know beingwho I am and the work I do, it's

(51:14):
like, hey, I want to do this.
Well, I don't want to just endup going, oh gosh, I'm old now
and I'm gonna die at some stage,and getting really depressed
and anxious about that anddefinitely.
I believe that if we supportpeople through those stages well
, it makes a huge difference.
You know, one quick story inone of the Native American

(51:35):
Indian traditions in thecommunities was that the men who
would often have ponytails andbe on their horses out hunting
or doing whatever they weredoing and fighting that when
they got to a certain age theywould cut off their ponytails
and stick them up inside theteepee and from that time those

(51:57):
men would no longer go outhunting and fighting but they
would sit in the teepee in thecircle of elders helping to
manage and support the communityand do what the elders did.
And I'm like, how interesting.
And a lot of men have thisgreat fear of stopping work and
building empires and, you know,want to just keep on doing that

(52:20):
as long as they can.
But in doing that they'll oftenhold down the young and stop
them from being able to rise upto their position because the
men are trying to hold on.
In my business right now I'mpassing on a whole heap of the
Rights of Passage Institute tothe younger generation who I've

(52:40):
known for many years and workedwith and said okay, now it's
your time, you take it on.
I'm going to step aside andjust do small parts of work, but
I'm no longer going to be theboss and running the whole thing
and in charge of it.
It's your turn, and I thinkthat's very healthy for me.
It frees me up and it's alsovery healthy for them and gives

(53:02):
them the opportunity to step upinto a new and more responsible
role.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Most of us probably haven't had the opportunity to
have an experience of a formalrites of passage being seen by
our community in those otherstages that you mentioned.
Would you be willing to talk usthrough the rite of passage
that you created for yourself,Because a lot of us are going to
be responsible for stepping upand creating these opportunities
?
Sure Well.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
I sort of cobbled it together in a number of
different stages and I went on anumber of retreats where I
really focused on what sort ofelder do I want to be?
What do I even just that,thinking about what is an elder,
what would a good elder looklike to me, what do I need to
let go of?
And that's when I startedwriting this model of elder

(53:47):
behavior rather than manbehavior.
So that was one of the things Idid.
I went to a number that Ihappened to have in the six
weeks before my 60th a number ofevents.
I went to two wedding onewedding, sorry two 60th, a bar
mitzvah and a funeral all inthat period, which I sort of

(54:07):
looked at and sort of reallylooked at how they were right of
passage and made me realisethat on the staircase everybody
can be moving at the same time.
It's like that's what'ssupposed to be happening.
And the other thing I did is Idid a vision quest on my land
where I went and sat out in thebush for four days with no food
and had some water but I onlyhad three cups of water on the
third day and just really wentinside and waited to see what

(54:33):
came up, and that was enormouslypowerful.
And then the final thing I didwas I had a big 60th celebration
on my land where I invited allthese different people from
around the country and aroundthe world and different stages
of my life, and we had a threeday celebration up on my
property and all of those things.

(54:53):
For me, you know, there was allthe events I did, the personal
explorations I did, thecommunity involvement.
I feel have, I really feel I'min my 60s now, I'm in an elder
stage and I'm excited about it,yeah, so that's really helpful.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
So, looking back from your entry into the sixties, if
you were looking back intomoving into your forties, which
is what I'm about to be doingwhat processes or situations did
you or would you have putyourself in to walk into this
new season of life?

Speaker 1 (55:31):
It was much more about a growing stage with them.
You know, teaching them things,showing them things, taking
them sailing, listening to theirday, you know when we're having
dinner, so that was very much apart of it.
And it was also for me aboutplanting gardens and fruit trees
.
So I don't know that it was somuch for me a rite of passage
then, but it was definitely astrong stage in my life that's

(55:52):
different from now.
I don't know that it was somuch for me a rite of passage
then, but it was definitely astrong stage in my life that's
different from now.
I don't want to build any moreempires.
I'm trying to get out of them.
You know I don't want to workbig, long hours, whereas back in
my 40s I was happy to do that.
So yeah, I'm very aware I'm inwhat I call a different season
of life now.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Are there things that you would say we can look out
for?
Because a lot of the time wewill have a moment like an
illness that will tap us on theshoulder and be like hey, time
to pay attention when we've beenjust running hot for a long
time or not restful or whateverit is, or there'll be some sort
of crisis or moment.
Are there things in yourexperience that we can look out

(56:35):
for that are in thatpreventative way where we can,
before the shit hits the fan, wecan know?
Oh, maybe it is time for me togo and do my version of sitting
in the bush for days and feelinginwards for a while.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know I always
talked about this idea of thisstaircase and we move up steps
and Rats of Passage support uson those steps.
But I also believe that at thesame time as these steps are
happening in life there's aspiral downwards that we will
all experience and that spiraldownwards involves
disappointment, loss of dreams,betrayal, death of loved ones,

(57:15):
aging, all of those things.
And in the same way, thosethings can be managed well.
A loss of a loved one can bereally it's always sad, but we
can actually face into it, dealwith it and become more loving
because of it and really honorthat person who's lost, who's
gone.
Or we can just shut down, nevertalk about it, never

(57:35):
acknowledge it, just internalizeit and let it do its thing
inside us, which I don'trecommend.
And same with an illness.
You know, lauren, if I can say,I know you've had a
mosquito-borne virus that's beenbugging you for a while now and
and you know that can bemanaged well or badly.
So, managed badly, you try anddeny it, you get angry about it,

(57:56):
you get grumpy about it, youshut down about it, which you
know in part will probablyhappen but also it's a great
opportunity to think aboutwhat's important.
It's a great opportunity tointernalize.
It's a great opportunity.
If you're a journal, it's ajournal.
It's a great opportunity torest and it's a great
opportunity to think about whatyou really appreciate in life.
So all of these things can beused in different ways.

(58:18):
And then, on top of that, youknow, I think, if, if we're
feeling a calling like you'veasked me a couple of times
you've said to me hey, I'm, youknow, I'm about to turn 40 and
you know, and so clearly, ifit's a significant thing for you
, and then it's worth sayingwell, what do I want to do?
And how fabulous that you'regoing away with a group of your
besties to surf.

(58:39):
But then how do you even takethat the next level and go?
Well, I'm going away and Iwon't have to do all these
things.
I will get much more time torest, but it's also a great time
for reflection and hopefully,with your besties, you can share
some really beautiful deepstories and conversations.
And all of you may at some stagewhen you're out there, you know
, on the boat in the Maldives,you might somewhere go.

(59:02):
Hey, what about this evening?
We just sit for an hour andthen talk about what's our
vision.
Where would we like to be infive years time?
What are we wanting to do?
Is there anything we're wantingto let go of and not do anymore
?
And then you may, even at thevery end of the trip, sit in a
circle and honour each of thegirls.
The women can just sit therequietly and not say anything for

(59:23):
a few minutes, while the restof you just tell them what you
admire, are proud of and loveabout them.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
That's exactly what I want to do.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Oh, surprise, surprise, proud of and love
about them.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
That's exactly what I want to do surprise, surprise.
That's why you've loopedeveryone into a trapped space.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
They think they're just going on a surf trip, but
what you're doing?

Speaker 1 (59:43):
is you're taking an activities based event which is
going on a boat, going surfing,and a lot of people just do that
, get great waves, come home,that's it.
They're happy going with thenext thing and you're now making
it a transformational processwhich is going away, not having
mobile phones, sharing stories.
The challenge will be therebecause you're away and you're
in big waves and all that andalso making a vision and doing

(01:00:06):
an honoring and recognition ofthe gifts and spirits of each
other.
When you do that, somethingmagic happens.
That's actually the rite ofpassage framework, so I'd be
very interested to hear how thatgoes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
That's so fantastic.
I love that, anna.
I love that you've shared thatand that people will be
listening to this and thinkingof their own ways to incorporate
that into their life.
And I can't help but think thatevery surf is a tiny version of
that, is a tiny opportunity todo that, when we go to the beach
and like, okay, why am I here,why am I on the shore about to
go into the water?
What is it that's brought mehere?

(01:00:39):
And, yeah, that there's thosetiny moments, those
opportunities every day.
And then those are thosemoments where it's obvious we
need a bigger a dedicateddedicated version of that, and
making that happen is just great.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
It's really helpful to hear you reflect back from
60s to 40s.
It's just so valuable to have alonger scope of time because in
this season of life and I'minterested in 40s, not so much
because it feels like asignificant age to me, but
because there are a lot ofpreconceptions about what middle
age means much because it feelslike a significant age to me,
but because there are a lot ofpreconceptions about what middle
age means, what it looks like,what it feels like, often very

(01:01:18):
negative, often very busy andmired in monotony.
Um, and so it's really.
It was really great to hear youtalk about how that ends and
you feel very differently yeah,yeah, it's just very used.
It's very useful, yeah, so thankyou yeah, yeah, there are.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
There are stages beyond and you know it.
I look at it, it's like eachstage is a new opportunity and
and how can we do each stage asbest as we can and each stage
will have its challenges.
You know, I'm in, as I say, inmy elder thing, death becomes a
reality and I feel now death hasme in its sights.
That doesn't mean I feel likeI'm going to fall over and die

(01:01:57):
tomorrow or this year, but atsome stage it's going to happen.
But that gives me a choice.
I can now be anxious anddepressed about the fact that I
now know I'm going to die, or Ican go.
Well, I'm going to die, so I'mgoing to have the bloody, best,
most loving, you know, time Ican between now and then,
because I don't know when it'sgoing to happen.
So I'm going to live life tothe fullest.
You know we have those choicesand each stage, you know, I know

(01:02:21):
it's hard having young children.
I've been there.
It's incredibly hard.
It's also incredibly beautiful.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
The things they do and the things they say, and you
know it's how it goes.
Yeah, and I'd love for you tospeak to rites of passage as
regenerative communitycontributions.
What does that word mean to youin the context of your work?
Regenerative?

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
yeah, it's such a powerful word.
I'm great, so happy you broughtthat into it.
So rites of passage are notjust for the individual, they're
for the whole community andthey regenerate.
They give energy and power tothe community and bring the
community together.
So there's a group in America,the Mescalero Apache Indians,
who run a rite of passage fortheir girls and they've been

(01:03:04):
doing it for about 40 yearsagain because they were stopped
from doing it and since they'vebeen doing it it's grown their
community enormously and itregenerates the community.
I'm doing a program with thebachelor community in Queensland
, an Aboriginal community whoapproached me eight years ago
and said, look, we've got aproblem with our boys and we

(01:03:24):
want to do rites of passage.
We haven't been allowed to dothem.
We haven't done them here for200 years.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
And we had this big talk and Iagreed with Uncle Glenn the
elder that we would talk aboutthe framework, because the
framework of a rite of passageis always the same.
There's always stories, achallenge, a vision and a
recognition of spirit.
But they had to bring theculture and share it and do it

(01:03:46):
in the way that was appropriatefor their community and since
we've done it.
It's grown that community.
There are bachelor men who'vebeen living outside of bachelor
country and never been back onbachelor country until now, and
so the community comes in.
And even the land where we'redoing it, which is a 600-acre
plot of land in a national parkon the Great Sandy Strait,

(01:04:08):
looking over at Fraser Island,it was a public piece of land.
After we did that first rite ofpassage in 2018, they wrote a
letter and I supported anapplication to the government,
and the Butchella community nowhas a rolling lease a 40-year
rolling lease over that land andonly Butchella people can come

(01:04:28):
there and it's for cultural useand they can bring people in to
create rites of passage anddifferent events there.
And now we're talking aboutturning that piece of land into
a national training centre forIndigenous communities from
around the world Sorry, fromaround the country, to start
with, let's not get too farahead who want to be bringing
rites of passage back into theircommunity.

(01:04:49):
So just by doing this work, itcreates this energy of its own.
Even one more example of aregenerative rite of passage is
funerals.
I recently went to the funeralof a good friend's father, and
you think, how can a funeral beregenerative.
Well, there were so many peoplethere and I saw people there

(01:05:10):
who I went to school with andhaven't seen for decades, and it
was so beautiful to catch upwith them and to make a
commitment to keeping contact.
And you know, I saw all sortsof things happening, at even a
funeral that was actually givingenergy to the whole community.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
That's so true.
I just was a part of the paddleout and circle that we did for
Jack McCoy, a great surffilmmaker, one of the greatest,
if not the greatest in thesurfing world, who just left his
body, is 76 years old and had along battle with lung health
the last decade or so, and weall got together at Scott's Head

(01:05:50):
and and had a circle on landand then we had a circle out in
the water and it was the sameactually.
it was great because it was anopportunity, people that let out
their grief and bubble up thosefeelings of like, oh wow, he
did mean something to me and inthis particular way, and then
for people to just hang out andshare that with each other, have
a laugh as well, because we weall had funny Jack McCoy moments

(01:06:12):
, but at the end of the dayeveryone left with a rekindled
sense of friendship with eachother Correct and multiple
generations.
I got to sit with Morris Cole,who's you know such a figurehead
in the underground surfingworld, who was with Jack McCoy
and Wayne Lynch surfing andmaking surf films in the 70s you

(01:06:33):
know that's 50 years ago nowand I got to sit there and
listen to his stories and relateto him and be like, oh wow,
we've got so much in common eventhough we're, you know, decades
apart in age and I really hearyou with that.
It is an opportunity toregenerate yeah, how fabulous
yeah yeah, that's great.
I hadn't thought of that, and Ithink that's one of the reasons

(01:06:53):
why we are sitting down andhaving these kind of
conversations with friends andpeople who have so much
experience like yourself, anna,is so that when we have these
moments happening in our culture, in our communities, that are
kind of happening unconsciously,like we do, like that, for
example, we do a paddle out andwe think, okay, we're going to
go into the water and we'regoing to acknowledge that that
person's gone now, but what elseis actually happening in that

(01:07:15):
moment?
And having the language and theunderstanding that you are able
to communicate is so useful,because I feel like we will now
step forward into the nextcircle that we do as water
people.
This is a true ritual now amongsurfers around the world.
Well, this is a true ritual nowamong surfers around the world.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
We'll go there with that idea that not only are we
acknowledging that person, butwe're also acknowledging each
other and the role we play ineach other's lives now and into
the future, and their story andour own stories and the stories
from before.
And yeah, it weaves thecommunity together.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Yeah, I can't help but think that that's such a
common feeling throughouteverything you share and
everything you do is that youhave this ability to be living
and carrying out your actionswhile, at the same time, having
an awareness that floats aboveand around and underneath those
actions, and I don't know ifthat's something that you have

(01:08:10):
consciously cultivated in yourlife or is just who you are.
Can you speak to that in anyway?
Is that something you've worked?

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
worked on.
Uh well, I'd like to think it'sa bit of both in there.
You know I, my mother, was verycommunity-minded.
In fact, at her funeral wasextraordinary how many of her
old people employees had workedas a secretary or a cleaner, you
know, 30, 40 years ago came tothe to the funeral and shared
with me about how much respectand love they had for my mother

(01:08:38):
and how every time they wouldcome and work she would give
them lunch and a cup of tea anda biscuit.
And you know that was my mother.
And so on my land, anyone whocomes, they get a cup of tea and
if they're there for a meal wehave a meal, and once a week we
have a lunch with everyone onthe land and just have a
check-in.
And so I do cultivateintentionally.
I do also do it out of, youknow, knowledge and respect and

(01:09:00):
love for my mother who's nowpassed.
And and I think you know eventhese things about I see that
when we go away, if I'm in a cardriving with someone you know,
we can talk rubbish three hours.
We can spend half an hour, anhour of that conversation
actually having a check-in wherewe just listen to the other
person and then they just listento us and getting young people

(01:09:21):
and asking them to share abouttheir vision and who they wanna
be, or honoring them.
I just find it brings so muchto them, but it also brings so
much to me, and so, yeah, it'sinteresting.
With my sons I'll start doing itand they'll go.
Dad, we're not on camp now, butyou know, I am going over to
Vancouver and I'll be with mysons in two weeks time and my

(01:09:42):
son and oldest son and I we'rejust going to go on a road trip
and we're going to go whereverhe wants to go and do whatever
he wants to do.
So I think you know this issomething that's not just about
what happens out there.
It's also about how we are inour own lives.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
It's about marking moments, isn't it?
It's about wrangling back ourattention that can be scattered
to so many things, especially inthis middle season of life,
especially when you're ateenager, with competing
technological devices trying tosteal attention.
It's about knowing ourselves.
This work is about knowingourselves in the context of a

(01:10:17):
community, and that strikes meas extremely radical at this
moment in time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Yeah, and we need community.
We sort of have beenthreatening to talk about elders
for quite a while in this andI'll just go briefly there.
You know our elders have suchan important role and in many
ways they've been discarded.
And so what are they doing?
They're getting in their RVsand heading off for the northern
climbs or they're on the golfcourse, whereas I often talk
about, you know, the role of theelders and the young,

(01:10:45):
especially grandparents andgrandchildren.
They say that grandparents andgrandchildren have a special
bond because they have a commonenemy.
And it's so interesting when youget the elders together with
the young, you look what happens.
The elders or the grandparentscan see the young and they have
patience and time for them andthey tell them how much they
love them and how fabulous theyare, and whereas the parents are

(01:11:08):
busy and need to be doing theirown thing.
But also, when the young andthe elders get together, it
gives the elders purpose andenergy, both of which they need.
So it's a perfect relationship.
Plus, it creates space for theones in the middle, the parents,
to go off and do their gloriousthings, and so it works all

(01:11:31):
around.
But when that community getsbroken down, the parents are
having to spend all this timeentertaining and being with
their kids, so these daysthey're defaulting to iPads and
technology, and the parents areall exhausted and don't get a
break, and the elders arenowhere to be seen, and the kids
are not getting that fabulousknowledge and hearing the
stories which are so valuablefrom the elders are nowhere to

(01:11:52):
be seen, and the kids are notgetting that fabulous knowledge
and hearing the stories whichare so valuable from the elders.
So I strongly believe that, youknow, one of the more important
things that we can do isactually, you know, it's an
education around the importanceand necessity of elders.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
For those of us who have elders who aren't present
or who have gone off in the RVand are having their own
independent adventures, how doyou recommend that we cultivate
eldership in our lives if itisn't by bloodline?

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Well, I think once again it starts with the
individual.
I have a number of elders in mylife who are not in my
bloodline.
Well, I think once again itstarts with the individual.
I have a number of elders in mylife who are not in my
bloodline and I chase them up.
Yeah, you know, I know dave,you have elders, you know people
like you know dick van stralenand you know elders in the
surfing community and I have nodoubt that they are a valuable

(01:12:51):
input in your life.
But I imagine you've had to,you know, you kind of follow
them up.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're a pest.
I'm a pest all the time withthose guys, but you can see how
it lights them up and how usefulit is for me when I want to
know their stories.
I love like bumping in andhanging out with Rusty Miller in
our area here and justpeppering him with questions
about what it was like surfingin the 70s in Hawaii or what
it's like various stages of yourlife, and I see how much he

(01:13:19):
lights up and then I realise, oh, it gives him energy.
It gives him and I'm not beinga pest, actually it's like it
stokes him out and it gives meperspective.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
He will have gone home after seeing you and be
saying to you know, he's like oh, I just had such a fantastic
time with Dave and we justchatted nonstop and it was
amazing, it's brilliant, I loveit, I feel great, you know,
because it is, it's healthy bothways.
And so, you know, if we canbring grandparents in, if we can
find elders who we talk to justspending time with them, I

(01:13:52):
believe it's a really, reallyvaluable in every direction.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you
, oh, we could go for days here.
I know, I know we have tocreate an end point.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
The only thing I would add is that if people are
interested in our work, it's theRites of Passage Institute
Rites spelled R-I-T-E-S.
Rites of Passage Institute andwe run camps up here in the
Northern Rivers.
We start with seven-year-olds.
We have overnight camps calledYoung Warriors, with boys or
girls with mum or dad.

(01:14:22):
We have camps for 10 to 12.
We actually have afather-daughter camp, which is a
weekend.
We have a mother-son camp for 10to 13 year olds, which is two
nights, and it's really aboutpreparing and looking at the
fact that these boys are goingto become young men in the next
few years.
And then we have our father-sonmaking of men camp for 14 to 17

(01:14:42):
year olds, which is five days,and we have a mother-daughter
bloom camp, which is also fourdays, for girls 14 to 17 with
their mothers.
So anybody who's interested,that information's on our
website, the rites of passageinstitute.
We work in lots of schoolsaround the country, helping them
take their camps, which areactivities based, and make them

(01:15:04):
actually transformational byinserting the rite of passage
framework, and we do all sortsof public speaking around the
place.
So our aim is to have amovement.
Our aim is for healthy rites ofpassage to become mainstream
again time is precious.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
thanks for spending some of yours listening with us
today.
Our editor this season is themulti-talented ben jake.
The soundtrack was composed byShannon Sol Carroll, with
additional tunes by Dave and Ben.
We'll be continuing today'sconversation on Instagram, where
we're at waterpeoplepodcast,and you can subscribe to our
very infrequent newsletter toget book recommendations,

(01:15:44):
questions we're pondering behindthe scenes, glimpses into
recording the podcast and morevia our website,
waterpeoplepodcastcom.