Holly Beck: Simplicity + Therapy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All those things that my mom had said about how to
like achieve success attract themale gaze and look cute and do
what the man says, and that washow you were going to achieve
success.
And I was like, no, no, I'mrejecting that, I'm going to be
a surfer.
And then it was like, wow, thisis kind of the same thing.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to Water People, a podcast about the
aquatic experiences that shapewho we become back on land.
I'm your host, lauren Hill,joined by my partner, dave
Rastovich.
Here we get to talk story withsome of the most interesting and
adept waterfolk on the planet.
We acknowledge the BundjalungNation, the traditional
custodians of the land andwaters where we work and play,

(00:40):
who have cared for this seacountry for tens of thousands of
years.
Who have cared for this seacountry for tens of thousands of
years.
Respect and gratitude to allFirst Nations people, including
elders, past, present andemerging.
This season is supported byPatagonia, whose purpose-driven

(01:01):
mission is to use business tosave our home planet.
Today we're in conversationwith Holly Beck, entrepreneur
and holistic surf coach.
Holly has a degree inpsychology, an MBA and a
master's in counseling.
She is the founder of Surf withAmigos, an all-inclusive surf
and yoga retreat for adventurouswomen, which she's run for the
last 15 years from her home basein Central America.
Before that, holly spent 10years as a professional surfer,

(01:24):
where she pioneered new pathwaysfor women in the industry, as a
competitor, savvy, free surferand as president of
International Women's Surfing, alargely forgotten union to push
for equal pay and opportunityin the early 2000s.
In the year 2000, holly tookhome the Teen Choice Award for
Female Extreme Athlete.
She was also one of surfing'sfirst reality TV stars, as one

(01:45):
of seven pro surfers filmed andfollowed on Oahu's North Shore
during the 2002 Triple Crown ofSurfing.
Through Surf, with Amigas andprivate clients, holly is
growing the space of therapeuticsurf coaching, a modality that
combines experiential and talktherapy with surf coaching to
help women in particular focuson their mental health while
also improving their surfing.

(02:06):
Do you want to tell me aboutthe internal struggle you've
been battling with this morning?

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Oh, the one about going surfing or taking care of
administration things with life.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, that one.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yes, sure, right now I have the good yeti on one
shoulder and the bad yeti on theother, and they're talking
through my ears and one's sayinggo surfing, go surfing, the
wind's nice.
Oh yeah, there's a nice littlesouth swell and the water's blue
and the sky is too.
And the other one's saying no,you just spent the last few days
in the ocean all day, and thereare many, many things on many

(02:43):
lists that you have to attend to.
So I'm just caught in themiddle trying to figure that
shit out, and it's not easy.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
I can see the strife on your face.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Do you have that experience, Lauren?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
I do have that experience, but I think I find
it easier to accept and act onresponsibilities than you do,
for whatever reason, I don'tknow why.
I guess I find joy in maybe awider breadth of things than you
do.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
So I'm just narrow-minded basically no, no.
And self-serving.
Is that what you're trying toget to here?
It?

Speaker 2 (03:19):
doesn't really sound that way.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Well maybe not between your ears, but between
mine that way.
Well, maybe not between yourears, but between mine.
That's what I heard, sorry, no,it's.
It's a thing that a lot of uswho have a real love of surfing
have to navigate, and you knowwe can take the piss out of it,
we can laugh, of course, whichis great, but there are times
where it's not that funny andyou know, these last few months
for us, for us, have been notthat funny because of ecological

(03:46):
reasons.
You know, our rivers wereswollen and polluted and fish
were dying in the tens ofthousands and the ocean was
dirty and wobbly and surfingtook a real backseat for many
months, and that had realconsequences, certainly for me.
It was a really hard timeactually.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
For mental health, you mean.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, and physically.
Like just actually gettingphysically sick.
That's not easy.
So that's the flip side ofhaving the vibrance of a surfing
body and a surfing state ofmind.
You also have that, I guess,shadow side, or the price to pay
sometimes.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
It borders on the edge of unhealthy addiction at
times for a lot of us.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, and this conversation with Holly is a
really great reminder of how todance that line and do well and
be our best, despite being sortof like torn in a way, like
having one foot in the water andone foot on land at all times,
and it's like, ooh, that can betricky because you end up doing
neither very well.
So it's kind of like, okay, I'mon land, let's do what needs to

(04:50):
be done here, and then whenyou're in the ocean, you forget
it all and you're just in theocean.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I'm such a fan of Holly as I allude to in the
episode.
I grew up seeing her in all theads and sponsored.
As you know, she's anaccomplished competitive surfer
but really she forged a path forherself as a free surfer and
model when that wasn'tespecially available to a lot of
women who are surfing.

(05:14):
So I definitely acknowledge hereffort in that space.
But I'm so stoked about thework she's doing now and I think
you hear that toward the end ofour conversation with her we
get right into holistic surftherapy and what that means and
how she came to it and becauseof the podcast Water People is
really all about and we say thisin the intro it's all about our

(05:35):
aquatic experiences and howthey shape who we become back on
land.
Holistic surf therapy is, Idon't know, kind of another way
to think about ocean as mirrorand ocean as a way for us to
keep knowing ourselves atdifferent phases in our lives,
and that feels really excitingand also validating.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Why?
Why would you laugh when yousay that?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Because I am turning 40 this year.
I'm going to say that in everyepisode, all year.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
God, I'm excited, but I just still love surfing so
much and it gives me so much andthe things, oh God, get
reflected in this huge, spaciousplace we get to play and I'm

(06:24):
just so grateful and it feelsvalidating to see someone
looking into the research beingable to quantify the fact that
surfing is healing.
We know it personally.
But also getting to see what itdoes for other people and see
people change because of theirexperiences positive experiences
in the water is just beautiful.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's an interesting one too, right now that we have
so many people coming to surfingthat are adults and kids.
There's just waves and waves ofpeople all over the world
learning to surf, and then youhave these accomplished water
people guiding those people intothe surfing experience, and
it's usually interesting tospeak with those coaches or surf

(07:05):
lesson people in relation tothe kind of people they see
coming to their shoreline andgoing out in the water and what
their experiences are.
And I think that's, in holly'scase, a really interesting area
to dive into, because you know15 years of taking lots of women
, especially surfing, andreflecting on what it's done for

(07:27):
those women.
You know she's getting lettersback from people or calls back
from people who have attended acamp with her, saying it changed
their life, it was a beautifulexperience.
They had never known such afeeling in their body or clarity
or whatever the treasures werethat they attained from being
with Holly in that beautifulspace there in Central America,

(07:47):
and so I think that is also justinteresting and it makes me
want to talk to some of thepeople in our area who are
teaching hundreds of people ayear about surfing.
It's like, well, what are youlearning from them too, because
it's a two-way street Get thesenew perspectives coming back.
So that in itself isinteresting with Holly, let
alone the fact that she has aninquisitive and sort of academic

(08:08):
mind and wants to know reallywhat are we doing, how are we
doing this and what does it meanin the bigger picture?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
And a big part of her story has been how do I make
this better, how do I make thisculture better?
How do I make the experience ofa lineup better?
She's been interested andengaged with that work from the
very start of her career.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, it's great.
That opportunity to speak fromthe inside and the outer is
really useful, you know, for usto be able to dive into how it
feels to be, you know, basicallyhustling and selling your body
and your look and your surfingto avoid a nine to five job and
then, to you know, pull out ofthat and go remote and simplify

(08:47):
majorly.
It's just great.
It's a wonderful life lived andgreat, I guess, kind of like
reports from the edge in a way.
I love that moment you get withpeople who have really
stretched the edges of life andcan come back to us, to others,
and report from that space.
I feel like Holly is one ofthose people and we're better
for it what are you taking awayfrom this conversation?

(09:09):
that I should probably gosurfing right now and don't do
any of the things that I need tobe doing on the lists.
No that that that actually toto do better here on land, with
attending the things that needto be attended and then being
able to be 100 in in the oceanwhen I'm there, really
considering that space beforegoing surfing.

(09:30):
The why of it.
Why have I carved out thisblock of time?

Speaker 2 (09:33):
I loved that too.
I really loved that because wedidn't talk about this
specifically.
But I get the sense that a lotof the aggression, a lot of the
miscommunication and heavinessin lineups is because we bring
what's heavy for us on land intothe lineup and end up acting
out from things that havenothing to do with the surfing

(09:56):
experience.
We end up inflicting thoseemotions on other people in this
space that has nothing to dowith what's happening on land,
and so Holly offers up thisreally practical prompt at the
end of the episode around how wecan sit with ourselves and
really try to leave thatheaviness behind to hopefully
make for a healthier lineupenvironment.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Indeed, and also just the excitement of hearing that
you are going to dive into 10foot surf and we'll do that
together and I'll get to helpyou through that experience.
I'm looking forward to whatpeople have to say about hearing
that part of the conversation.
That's going to be really fun,but it's it's.
It's a neat experience when youget to talk to someone who has

(10:37):
some practical tools for us todive into those sort of prickly
areas as surfers, and I lovedthat you're opening up and
talking about an area of yoursurfing life that is sort of
prickly areas as surfers, and Iloved that you're opening up and
talking about an area of yoursurfing life that is a little
prickly and perhapsuncomfortable for you, and that
she really has really usefulsteps for you for all of us to

(10:58):
tread, moving forward andperhaps being better and doing
better.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
I haven't been on many surf trips since I gave
birth and I think I'm going tohave to add attending one of
Holly's workshops to the wishlist one of these years.
She is such an inspiring andtalented surfer, and with her
skills as a counselor, I thinkwe'll end up having an
experience unlike what you canget anywhere else.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, and have fun getting borrowed at the same
time.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
What's better than that?
We always begin by asking abouta time or experience after
which you were never the same.
Holly, would you be willing toshare a story like that with us?

Speaker 1 (11:42):
For sure and definitely mine goes more into a
time it wasn't one moment, butthat would be when I made the
decision to move to CentralAmerica, and that came after a
few months of living inNicaragua, just thinking it was
going to be sort of a short termthing.
And then I was going to go backto the US and kind of begin my

(12:04):
like big girl life, post prosurfing, and I spent three
months living on a little pieceof land that my boyfriend at the
time and I had bought togetherand we'd built this like little
tiny house, 400 square foot offthe grid.
It just had a solar panel thatran a light in the fan and
cooler, and then actually had awell that you had to pump by
hand, like like old school, likepulling water up on the ground.

(12:26):
And I spent three months downthere and just I had rescued
this dog and then she'd gottenpregnant and had some puppies.
So I had like these, four dogsand was living in this really
remote place and I was just likethis this is who I want to be,
and it was the first time in mylife up until that point and I
was like this was 2010.

(12:48):
So I was 30 years old and Ithink a lot of people when
they're 30, you're trying tofigure out like, okay, now it's
time to like be who I'm gonna befor the rest of my life.
To some extent, and I had thisrealization that it was time to
finally put away everybodyelse's expectations for what I
should be and choose this thingthat I wanted to do, and it was

(13:10):
living in Central America justsurfing.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
It's so great and I can so relate to you.
I feel like we had a verysimilar when I moved to
Australia.
It was from a very suburban,very sterile Floridian kind of
suburban existence and I came toAustralia Dave had just built a
little cabin off grid.
We had to carry the water fromthe tank into the house.

(13:34):
Dish doing was like at a tap atthe bottom of a water tank, and
I loved it so much.
Just the simplicity of being intouch with all of the elements
of life that I'd taken forgranted for my entire, basically
young life.
Like you, it really set me upto see like these are the things
that I value and these are thethings that I want to carry
forward in who I'm becoming.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
That makes me wonder, holly, like you had a great run
of surf travel and havingadventures.
You know I can relate to thatlife where you just sort of roll
from one surf trip to anotherfor years.
It seems like this decision togo and have such a like paired
back lifestyle, living remotelylike you're just describing,

(14:16):
were those seeds planted in youbefore all of that surf travel?
Having grown up in california,that's a pretty different world.
Or did that come from yourwillingness to go out into the
world and explore and experiencedifferent cultures and places?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
I would say it was a rejection of what I grew up with
, because I grew up in a uppermiddle class, you know, pretty
comfortable lifestyle in justoutside of Los Angeles and my
I'm the oldest of five girls andmy parents were very much
traditional gender roles, likethe role of a female is to look

(14:52):
cute and, you know, do the rightthings.
I did dancing and horsebackriding, piano lessons, like all
the nice things that a niceyoung lady should do, and the
goal was to meet a rich husbandand get married and start having
babies.
And if you weren't going to gothat route, then you needed to
go and pursue a career that wasgoing to pay you a lot of money.

(15:13):
That was like my dad was likewell, if you're not going to do
the baby's thing, then youshould be a lawyer, like I am.
And I think growing up I neverreally felt like like I was
trying to do that, to likeplease my parents to some extent
, but it was always this likebattle, because it didn't feel
true to who I was.
And then when I was like 15years old and I discovered
surfing 14, 15, and I startedsurfing and I was like I'm

(15:35):
rejecting all that and I'm goingto be a surfer and I'm going to
I'm a tomboy, I'm going to likeplay with the boys and and all
of this.
And then, as I got into the surfindustry, it was interesting
because it was like all thosethings that my mom had said
about how to like achievesuccess.
It was to like attract the malegaze and look cute and do what
the man says and to appease theman, and that was how you're

(15:56):
gonna achieve success.
And I was like no, no, I'mrejecting that.
I'm gonna be a surfer.
And then it was like, wow, thisis kind of the same thing,
because in the, you know, in themid 90s, when I got into
surfing and I got sponsoredpretty quickly after not having
surfed for very long, and I gotsponsored more as a model, and
then my career of competitivesurfing was very intertwined

(16:16):
with, like the modeling.
And, yeah, it was like the malenow it's like the male
marketing director and like themagazine guys and all of this
stuff, which I was like kind oflike, okay, well, my mom has
sort of trained me to do that,like I kind of know how to do
this.
It's not who I am, but alsolike I can put on the mask of
being the model and being cuteand all of that.

(16:37):
And, of course, traveling theworld was the perk, so it was
like worth doing it and I wassuper lucky to have sponsorship
because of course, in that eralike not everybody did.
And yeah, traveling the worldopened my eyes to this is really
fun and I love surfing goodwaves and these waves are so
much better than what I grew upsurfing.
But I just got burnt out on thatscene and you know I I did well

(17:02):
with competitive surfing but Iwasn't on the CT, like I was
never going to be world champ,but it was because I had like
the modeling and I had the rightlook.
You know I had a hard work ethic, that then I still had the
success.
But yeah, I think moving toNicaragua was this like I'm just
tired of playing this game andI don't even know who I actually

(17:22):
am.
I haven't had a chance to likereally explore that, because all
growing up I'm trying to fitinto this mold that my parents
had set for me and then Ithought that I had broken out of
that and I'm in the surfindustry and I'm like living my
dream.
But it's also kind of the sameand I'm just going to put all
that aside and go live in thedirt in Nicaragua as like the
only female and just go surfreally good waves and and like

(17:45):
that was this turning point, tolike I'm going to be who I want
to be and like now I get achance to actually explore like
who that is.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
I'd love to talk a little bit more about the way
you played the game as theindustry dictated at the time.
This is something I've thoughta lot about and written a lot
about, and there's a lot ofnuance to that conversation.
Right, there's been this likeconversation around sex sells,
and we all know that that can betrue and also other things can
be true.
At the same time and I loveyour point of view because you

(18:16):
saw what was happening aroundyou and you made the choice to
play the game to have a careerYou're obviously an incredibly
talented surfer, but that's notall it takes to make a career
out of pro surfing.
Lots of talented surfers don'tor can't manage to do that.
Can you speak a little bit moreto what you saw?
Because you came into prosurfing competitive surfing at a

(18:38):
really critical turning point.
Right Like mid-90s, late 90s,lisa Anderson is getting
sponsored and sort of crackingthe glass ceilings in the
industry.
Women's board shorts are comingout, brands are starting to
support women in ways that hadnever happened before, and at
that point, either you were LisaAnderson or you were a model

(18:59):
surfer.
There were basically twopathways, and where my critique
has always been is like theproblem is not women who want to
go down the sexy route.
It's that we need a breadth ofopportunities, from board short
wearing to g-string wearingEverything in between can be
valuable and can be a viableoption for women who want to

(19:19):
make a living in the industry.
Does anything in there sparkyou?

Speaker 1 (19:26):
make a living in the industry.
Does anything in there sparkyou?
Yeah, I've been super inspiredat the way that you talk about
women in surfing and women inthe industry.
Like I loved your take in thehow surfers get paid, that
episode about women surfing.
I just I love the way you spokeabout it and like a lot of what
you said really resonated and Ithink it is interesting because
and I you know I'm so out of itnow that I'm not even sure what
what is going on now butdefinitely then it did feel like

(19:49):
that.
It was like you were a model oryou were an athlete.
And the very first photo that Ihad in the magazine it was a
rusty ad in surfer magazine andit was a picture of me standing
in like a red bathing suitholding a surfboard.
I think I was like 17 years oldand you know I had been
competing in like the amateurcontest and it's like some
little pro contest, the U S openand those kinds of things.

(20:11):
So I was just starting you knowI'd only been serving a couple
of years, but so I was juststarting to like kind of meet
these women, like like Lisashe's a little older than me but
like Rochelle and Serena andkind of the that era of women,
like I was just starting to meetthem and I feel like, because
the very first introduction ofme into like the kind of wider

(20:32):
surfing world, at least on theprofessional level, was from
this one ad of me in a bathingsuit and then all of the photos
that came from that photo shoot,like Rusty ran and I was stoked
Don't get me wrong to have aphoto in the magazine at all At
that age.
I was thrilled.
Yes, I would have preferred itto be riding a wave, but like I
was stoked to just be that and Ifelt like in the beginning I

(20:54):
like none of those other girlstook me seriously because it's
like, oh well, you're a model.
And then, as I kind of got moreinto competitive surfing than
you know some of my peers,there's a lot of jealousy.
It was like there were girlsthat were way better surfers
than I was or I was competitivewith maybe, and ones also that
were better.

(21:14):
But I was getting thesponsorship, I was getting the
photo in the magazine whether itwas actually standing on a
board or not.
Like it was my photo, I wasgetting paid and and it put me
in this really strange placewhere, like, in one hand, I felt
bad.
I was like this is weird, likethis isn't right.
Yeah, we're all travelingtogether, you're actually
beating me in the contest, butlike I have the credit card,

(21:37):
that from my sponsor, that I canput the rental car on, or like
I'm gonna buy dinner tonight,and yeah, it was this awkward
thing because that's not how Iwanted to be known.
I didn't want to be known as amodel, I wanted to be known for
my surfing, but at the same time, I recognized that if I went
the model route and I playedthat game too and I said yes to
the photo shoot that that wasgoing to help.

(21:59):
I went to a contest in Portugalone time and it was like a WQS
6,000 or something, and it wasmaybe the first year that I was
going to those bigger events andit was like Maxim Europe that
had somehow like asked me to doa photo shoot and I was like on
the beach at the contest area,like on a lay day, like leaning

(22:20):
over my board with like my buttin the air, like doing this
exaggerated like waxingtechnique and like all the girls
were like my butt in the airlike doing this exaggerated,
like waxing technique, and likeall the girls were like standing
up on the cliff, like hecklingme, you know, and it was like I
think some women really likelove that and like want to show
off their body and enjoy thephoto shoots and like respect to
them.

(22:41):
But that was never me, like Iwasn't doing it because I
thought this is fun and don't Ilook hot in the photo.
It was like this is a means toan end.
And yeah, I found myself inthose situations a lot where and
I think that some of theheckles, the girls were like I'm
so glad that's not me and maybesome other ones were kind of
jealous of the attention orjealous of what that said about

(23:03):
like my ability to earn income,and I was just like I don't know
.
I don't know, I'm in a weird.
I'm in a weird place here.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
I can so relate to that, not the Maxim side.
So much but but the havingaccess to opportunities that
maybe better surfers didn't haveaccess to, and we all have
different reasons for why Canyou relate to that on the men's
side at all?

Speaker 3 (23:23):
yeah, yeah, totally.
I remember being sponsored bybillabong and being like a
teenager that didn't fit in thecompetitive surfing world very
well.
I played the game with that onefor a while, because at that
point it was the only way youcould be a sponsored surfer was
competitions.
And then, fortunately, rightwhen I became like a 20 year old
, more opportunities withinBillabong were available for

(23:47):
doing different kinds of surfingand being supported somewhat.
And so I do remember actuallydoing board shorts, photo shoots
, where you know every year theymake a new board short that's
meant to make your surfing 100times better, and all this
bullshit.
And so you do these photoshoots and I remember I could do
them with a smile on my facebecause I was like, well, shit,

(24:09):
this is better than layingbricks and digging holes and
doing that kind of work that'sgoing to ruin my body and is not
very fulfilling.
So I would just be like, sure,I'll stand there and look like
an idiot and you can take thesephotos and then I'm gonna
disappear, I, I'm going to go onsurfing adventures, I'll play
that game.
So I can relate to that thingof like just you compromise,
because all of us do in our workLike there's always some kind

(24:31):
of compromise.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Every job feels like a job sometimes.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah, so I get that.
You know you're playing thatgame and also the reality of
that time was like everyone washustling.
I think surfers in general havea real history of hustling in
order to have a life full oftime and opportunity to go
surfing when the waves come.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, totally.
It's crazy to see it now whenyou compare it to those days.
And now the surfers aretraveling with their partner and
their best friend and theirmanager and their coach, and all
of that it's so hard to relateto.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Yeah, well, it's funny too, though, because there
is that it's almost likethere's more extremism.
Now.
There is those people who havelike a whole entourage team, and
then we were just hearing aboutone of australia's most
up-and-coming kids who's likedoing the biggest fanciest airs
and stuff, and he is sponsoredbut nowhere near enough to do
his thing, and so he's workingat the local supermarket chain

(25:25):
at the same time as being thelike winningest young surfer in
Australia.
So there's less opportunities,but the people who are getting
support are getting like extremeamounts of support.
It's a funny one, just to see,you know, from our perspective.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Holly, your first photo trip as a teenager was
with, if I'm not mistaken, thegreat Floridian four-time world
champ, frida Zamba and othernotable surfers like Prue
Jeffries.
We spoke with Dylan Gravesrecently and he was in kind of a
similar situation where heended up with a bunch of male
surfing legends as a teenager.

(25:59):
He said he was absolutelyshitting himself.
I was wondering were youshitting yourself?
And also, did you feel like yourose to the opportunity of that
moment?
Well, that trip came about.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
So I learned to serve my freshman year of high school
, the summer of my freshman year, but I didn't really have the
means to go regularly until Iwas a sophomore.
So by the time I graduated highschool I'd only been serving
for three years, and so I wentto college.
Graduated high school, I'd onlybeen surfing for three years
and so I went to college.
And it was in my first semesterof college that Jim Rusi, who
is actually from the same townthat I am, he called me up and

(26:32):
he said hey, I've got this tripto go to Puerto Escondido, for
it was the very first issue ofsurfing girl magazine.
I don't even think it was likethe fur magazine, it was like
the insert, that like the girlsinsert that went inside the
magazine.
But yeah, somebody I don't knowwho it was that was originally
meant to be on the trip had tocancel last minute.
So there was an open spot andbecause he knew me from when I

(26:53):
was young well, young threeyears ago, which seemed like a
long time in that era he invitedme to go, and so it was like
three days before the trip, so Ididn't really have the time to
sort of anticipate, got out oflecture hall and got my sponsor
to buy a flight to PuertoEscondido.
I felt safe because I knew Jimand he believed in me to be

(27:13):
there.
So that was helpful.
But I am I'm kind of a nerd anddefinitely an introvert.
And to be with these women likePrue Jeffries and Felina Spires
, I think, was one of the otherones, and then Frida Zamba, like
four time world champ, Idefinitely didn't feel like I
fit in, but at the same timeFrida was super nice to me,

(27:37):
which I very much appreciated,because I think the other girls
were kind of like too cool, werekind of like too cool.
And on that trip what Irealized was that while those
girls were much better surfersthan I was, the gap wasn't as
big as I thought, because upuntil that point I hadn't even
considered the possibility thatI was going to be a pro surfer.
I mean, I was competing inamateur contests, I'd only been

(27:57):
surfing a few years, but it wasat.
That trip was really momentousbecause by the end of that trip
all of those girls were goingoff to go to Australia for the
next event and I was going backto sit in lecture hall and I
made the decision like I got todo that.
I'm going to buckle down.
I'm going to figure out how todo it.
I'm not going to drop out ofschool.
I'm going to finish a yearearly so that I could go and

(28:18):
live that life.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
Wow, that's wild.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
There's a lot of talk , I feel like, with each new
generation of women surfing,about how they're doing it like
women have never done before andthey're legitimizing women
surfing, and I always thinkabout how that feels for the
previous generation of women andhow the history gets lost,
neglected and underappreciated.
I love hearing you talk aboutFelina Spires and even Frida.

(28:42):
I feel like Frida Zamba's nameisn't really widely known, even
though she was a world champ notthat long ago.
I'd love to hear you speak toany of the women who you feel
like have really been underdogsor under-recognized for their
contributions.
And before you do, I want tosay I feel like that's a little
bit true for you as well.
You really helped carve outthis path that I've definitely

(29:04):
benefited from and that ismaking a living in other avenues
of surfing that aren'tcompetitive, so thank you for
that.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Oh, that's nice of you to say.
That's a good question.
I feel like there are a lot.
In some ways, I feel like thegeneration that I was in
sometimes gets missed, becauseit was like, you know, serena
and Kate Scarrett and LaneBeachley and you know Rochelle
and Megan, and those girls werelike kind of the generation
above me and I sort of came upinto them and then and then

(29:35):
there was almost like thereweren't any.
Maybe I'm forgetting someone,but I feel like there weren't
that many like superstars, youknow, like Carissa Moore and
Stephanie Gilmore and SallyFitzgibbons, and all of those
girls were like below me.
And so I feel like I was inthis group.
Chelsea Hedges, like she wasthere and then she went off and
had babies and you know, jessieMiley Dyer did her thing and

(29:56):
then now has been superinfluential in the WSL and
everything that she's done forwomen.
But there's a lot of women thatwere just kind of the connectors
between the two generationsthat, yeah, pushed it forward.
I mean, I would say that eachgeneration builds on itself and
like what the women are doingnow in big waves, in barrels in
the air, like it is, you know,leaps and bounds ahead of us,

(30:20):
and I know Rochelle Ballardfeels like really strongly about
the fact that if her generationhad been given the
opportunities that these youngergirls did like, if we had wave
pools and the option to surfpike unlimited budgets to travel
surf Tahiti, like, like, wherewould?
we would have pushed it a lotfurther.
But at the same time, I thinkwe, each in our in the capacity

(30:43):
that we had, opportunities thatwe had, like everybody kind of
pushed it, you know, and evenall of the little achievements
that get forgotten because theydidn't come with a world title
you know it was all part of it.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, a real example of that is the WSL bringing pay
parity in 2020.
That was, that was a bigsymbolic step forward, but there
had been a long, decades-longprocess of those conversations
and fights and small battles toget to that point.
That often gets forgotten too,and you were part of that as

(31:14):
well.
You were the president of theWomen's Surfing Union.
You stepped in after yourcollege degree and were
advocating for women's rightswithin the I guess it was the
ASP at the time, the surfingsporting body.
I'm curious about that role,but specifically what steered
you away from it?
It seems like you were drivento Central America not long

(31:36):
after you stepped away from thatposition.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah, that was really in the end.
And it was interesting becausewhen I graduated college and
then came in and like I hadbecause I graduated in three
years from a UC school like Iwas hustling.
I was like up early doingschoolwork, trying to surf,
going to compete on the weekend,taking time away from school to
like go on a contest or a phototrip, and all this.

(32:02):
And then I finally graduatedand I was like I have so much
time on my hands Like I don'tknow what to do with myself.
And I had gone to a meeting atHuntington that I think Lane and
Rochelle and Serena and allthose women had held.
That was like, hey, we're doingthis women's union, we have
this lawyer here to help us andno-transcript path to potential

(32:56):
success, not like now whereparents are grooming their kids
to be pro surfers starting atage five and like homeschooling
and all that.
Like that just wasn't there.
But I so I graduated and I waslike, hey, I want to, I want to
help.
And then it was like fourmonths later or something, I
started working with Rochelle alittle bit Okay, what can we do
and how can I help?
And they were like we're goingto let you run it and Lane

(33:17):
Beachley tells me this and she's, you know, a hero.
And I was like I hero.
And I was like I don't know ifI'm qualified for that because
like I'm new and you guys areall so cool and like I'm not
cool, but I was like all right.
And so Rochelle and I reallyworked on it together and you
know, those girls were alltrying to win world titles and
that was the benefit that I had.
I was just a QS warrior, mycareer was just beginning.
I had the time, I had the workethic and kind of that

(33:40):
background, and so I helped themshift it, because they were
trying to make a union and justhave like the pros pay dues but
like none of the pros had anymoney.
I'm like this is silly to raisemoney from within.
Like the pro ranks, like we'rethere, most girls are trying to
like sling pizzas to get to thenext contest, with the exception
of a handful.
And so I was like let's make itlike a membership based

(34:03):
organization and try to raisemoney from fans and if we can
get like all of these younggirls to give us 20 bucks and
they're going to get a T-shirtand a sticker and access,
because this is before socialmedia, and so there weren't that
many women surf magazines, likethere wasn't that much content
out there for women.
So I had I'm like I got thisgreat idea and we're going to

(34:24):
make a blog and we're all goingto contribute to it.
It's going to be like thebehind the scenes of like the
women's thing, and then we'regoing to charge memberships and
that's a way bigger pool and 20bucks and everybody's going to
do it.
We were going to raise moneyand we're going to have a
scholarship fund to help pay thetravel expenses of the girls
that were really good but didn'thave sponsors, to try to
crowdsource the group as a whole.

(34:46):
And then eventually I was likeI'll just do what I can do.
I can't do it all, but Ibelieve in it enough that I'm
going to keep doing it.
I was the rep, so I went to theASP board and, talking about pay
parity, there was this friendof a friend whose dad was in the
golf industry, and so this guy,he was in his like mid twenties
it was similar age as I was atthe time and he was like, yeah,

(35:08):
my dad's this golf executive andhe puts all these golf
tournaments on and he hascontacts with all these golf
companies.
And you know, what would bereally cool is like a surf and
turf, like surf and golf eventin Cabo and let's have it be
like the biggest prize purseever in professional surfing and
equal pay men and women.
And we're going to get some likea handful of golfers and like a

(35:29):
handful of surfers and havethis like festival vibe.
And I was like that's amazingand I like looked into like the
rules and like there's this likehoops you had to jump through
to get an asp specialty eventapproved and they only had like
a couple events a year to getKelly Slater and everybody to be
able to participate.
Then it had to be an ASPspecialty event and so I took

(35:50):
the plan to Rabbit and thoseguys at the ASP board and I
think that they're going to besuper excited Because here's all
this outside money and it'sthis, like you know, this really
cool new idea.
And it was really eye openingto me because they were like, oh
, we can't do that.
We can't do that Because thebiggest prize purse in surfing

(36:12):
history.
That wouldn't look good for thebrands and so they denied it
and and to me it was like what?
This is ridiculous and it wouldhave been the first contest that
would have paid men and womenthe same, because up until that
point that didn't exist and theysaid no to it.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, makes you wonder how many of those sort of
almost moments happened overthe years before tipping points
come.
It makes me think that thoseexperiences made it a whole lot
easier to go to nicaragua andlike just please say it again.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's not how you say it.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
I can't say that my mouth can't make that shape.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
It makes it easy to go to that place it makes it
easier to walk away from thesurf industry when the surf
industry is like not willing tohelp itself.
That was really what it camedown to.
I was in a heat I don'tremember exactly where, but I
was in a heat you paddle outlike five minutes before the
previous heat ends and I hadfriends in the heat before and I

(37:25):
was just like cheering for allof them you know, because these
are my friends and like look howcute they are, and like I just
love that we're out here servingand isn't this sick?
And then I'm like, oh, my heatstarting.
Like now I have to like getinto like beat my friends mode.
I don't want to do this anymore.

(37:49):
I just want to have fun with myfriends.
I don't want to have to beat myfriends.
And also, this industry isridiculous.
They're shooting themselves inthe foot.
The women are complaining abouthow they're not getting
anything, but then when it'slike well, let's band together
and do it ourselves, they don'tshow up.
And then on my sponsorship side, like I'm having to do this
like song and dance in a bathingsuit in order to like keep up
with things and get the contractsigned.
And I was just like I don'twant to do this anymore.

(38:09):
And I think what you were saying, dave, in the beginning of,
yeah, traveling all over theworld is so fun and it's amazing
and all the differentexperiences and adventures and
exciting and surfing differentways and meeting different
people and cultures and like allthe really cool things that I
got a chance to experience.
But ultimately I was like Iwant a dog and I want to garden.
I want to be able to make myown choice, cause you know, on

(38:31):
those trips it's not like youget to be like, oh, what's over
there, I'm going to go surf overthere because that looks really
pretty.
It's like, no, thephotographer's like, oh, the
life's good here, and here'slike, oh, the light's good here
and here's like the wave wherewe can get the shot.
So just surf this section andthen kick out and then do it
again and go change your bathingsuit and then do it again well,
that's like I don't want to do.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
That's interesting to me because that was not my
experience, so that that againshows that's very specific to
women's.
Yeah, women's, yeah, like onevery trip I ever did, I I
literally would just be like I'mgoing over there now and doing
this and all the other boyswould be the same, and the
photographer crew who fit inwere the ones that would get the

(39:09):
invite the next time, and thenext time, and the next time the
ones who were like no, no,we're gonna do if any if any
photographers did that on thetrips that I was a part of like
not just me, but like the, theteams of surfers that I'd be
with they would be on that trip,but they would never come on
another one.
So that's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
There was a lot more entitlement, the guys felt a lot
more entitled and valued to beable to make those decisions in
a way that female surfers,really haven't felt that.
I feel like until very veryrecently.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, that's so lame.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
What an indicator, too, that's yeah I remember
going to uh, the maldives, andwe were staying at loe fushi and
I I'd never been there before.
It's just like beautiful left,you know, over reef and crystal
clear water.
It was a really long wave, atleast in my mind at the time it
was like the longest left pointbreak I'd ever surfed.
The photographer was like, okay, just surf.
He was shooting in the water,so fair enough.

(40:03):
And he's like just surf thisfirst section, then kick out.
And I would like be like no,I'm gonna keep going.
And then he would be like, no,go, just just this section.
And then kick out.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
And just being like this is this is silly yeah yeah,
I guess that also speaks to theway that surf photographers
feel entitled to communicatewith female surfers versus male
surfers there's a reallydifferent kind of communication
there, and that's a bit of aslimy space.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
I reckon the surf photographer world is an
interesting one.
There's so many odd characterswho are in the timeline of surf
photography.
There's some absolute wonderfulpeople as well, but I would say
most of those characters arepretty fried, as you would be

(40:50):
standing in the sun staring atperfect surf all day, dealing
with surfers and not being ableto surf.
But I can imagine it wasprobably a pretty uncomfortable
space to be in with these mostlymiddle-aged dudes sweating it
up, pointing their long lens atyou and uh, you know, you're in
a tiny little bikini or whatever.

(41:10):
Did it feel like that?
Did it feel like a bit of akind of you'd need to be on
guard and like kind of, yeah,just, oh, my god, yes yeah, I
mean, and I think, like you said, there's there was all types.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I had like wonderful experiences with photographers
that were like really cool andsuper respectful.
The first international surftrip I went on was to Cabo, and
I was very young that I had thisphotographer and we were going
to drive.
Some of the girls were flyingand some were driving, and I
think I got invited to drive andthen all the other girls flew

(41:42):
and there were a couple of boysthat drove, also in caravans,
and so I drove with thephotographer and I was thinking,
oh, this is going to be cool.
Like you need to get a chanceto like drive down the coast of
Baja with, like the surfphotographer.
Maybe we'll surf along the way.
And this is going to be thiscool experience.
I'm going to save some money,because at the time I didn't
hadn't built up the sponsorshipmoney, so like I'm going to save
a little bit of money this way.
And I think, you know, drivingfrom California to the base of

(42:05):
Cabo is like a 24 hour drive,and so you know, you did it in
two days and the first night welike checked into this hotel
room and there were these twoboys that were a little older
that knew each other, so theyshared a room.
And then I was going to share aroom with the photographer and
I kind of I was so young that Ihadn't really thought this all
through Like where the what arethe sleeping arrangements going
to be?
And we go into this hotel roomand there's just the one bed and

(42:26):
it was like you know, I wake upwith his like arm across me,
like oh, you know.
And he's just like, oh, I'mjust used to sleeping with my
wife.
And I was like, ok, fair enough.
And then the second half of thedrive he's like so you ever,
you ever, you ever look atinternet, like you know, sex

(42:47):
sites, and this is this was like2000, 94, 95.
So like the internet wasn'twhat it is now.
And then I'm just like no, youknow, like such a grom.
And then we got almost the wayto the car, all the way to Cabo,
but we didn't.
We were like two hours short.
So we decided to spend anothernight and this time we were
camping and the other boys hadtheir own little tent and the
photographer had this truck andhe's like we're going to sleep

(43:07):
in the back of the truck.
And I was like, oh, no, I'mgoing to sleep in the cab.
And he's like no, no, no, Iwant to lock all my camera gear
in the cab, so you're going tosleep in the truck.
And I was like no, no, I'msleeping.
And so I spent the whole nightlike curled up in a little ball
with this guy's camera gear.
And I mean, it's Cabo, it's amillion degrees.
You know, there's like no AC inthe car when the car is off and

(43:30):
then so the windows couldn't beall the way down because of the
mosquitoes, so it's like thewindows are up, I'm sweating and
you know how in between, likethe bed of the truck and the cab
, there's those windows thatkind of like open just a little

(43:51):
bit.
And I wake up in the middle ofthe night and he's looking
through the window at me and Iwas just like we finally
connected with my friends and Iwas just like I am never riding
with him again.
I ended up buying a flight to gohome and that was my first.
That was my first photo trip.
That wasn't like I had gone tocabo with with Rusty before,
that produced that red bathingsuit photo, and this was like
the next trip and that was myfirst experience with a surf
photographer like that yeah,yeah, I'm sorry, that's that was

(44:12):
how that experience was for you.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
It's just taking me back to that time and just, yeah
, just a lot of very shittymorals and yeah, just shitty
behavior that was so nonchalantand just acceptable.
Um, it was a lecherous time.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
My experience like going to surf expo and stuff was
just especially as a young well, I was probably 15, I started
surfing when I was 14, so like15, 16, going to surf expo, like
with my little resume andphotos, like I want to be
sponsored, and just themiddle-aged men gross.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Grabbing at you, yeah so bad.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'm glad the surf industry has grown a lot since
then.
There's still a long way to gobut it's changed a lot and I'm
really grateful, a lot, and I'mreally grateful and it's really
interesting to hear yourperspective from right in the
middle of that industry as itwas blossoming, and what that
experience was like.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, and then we were saying earlier there was
this feeling that you had to dothat At least.
Now you think that if some guydid that, then everybody would
talk and be like this guy's acreep, we're not going to use
him again.
He almost kind of had to goalong.
It felt like I had to go alongwith it because if you want to
be successful then you need thephotos and if you're going to

(45:30):
get the photos you've got to bewith the photographer and even
if it's a creep, if he's got agood relationship with your
sponsor, with the magazine, youkind of have to do it.
As creepy as that guy was,there's a line that didn't get
crossed that you would call likesexual assault.
But also what was going on wasnot okay.
And that's where I feel likethere was so much of that that

(45:51):
it is important to talk about,because no one was talking about
it then, like, if I had known,okay, that actually really isn't
okay, you shouldn't put up withthat, that would have been
amazing.
But I think that also, like Iwas saying, like my personal
experience with like growing upand you know the my mom
basically saying, no, this ishow you get ahead, like this is

(46:12):
what you need to do.
You have to be cute and attractthe male gaze so that you can
get a rich husband.
And then, you know, for me itwas like okay, well, I'm not
thinking about the rich husbandright now, now I'm thinking
about money from sponsors, butit's like, it's like that I had
been taught that, and so, whileI was like ick, like this is
weird, it was kind of like butthis is how the world is, like

(46:34):
this is what I need to do, likein order to be successful, like
I need to use this.
You know, because I'm not aworld champion, like maybe if I
was a world champion, I wouldn't.
You know, because I'm not aworld champion.
Like maybe if I was a worldchampion, I wouldn't have to.
But since I'm not, then you gotto use what you got, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
If you've enjoyed listening to the conversation so
far, consider also subscribingto Water People on Spotify or
Apple Podcasts.
It'll help other people findthe show and, if you're feeling
inspired, leave us a review.
We love hearing from you.
And now a word from the folkswho help make the podcast
possible.
Patagonia is in business to saveour home planet.
Founded by Yvonne Chouinard in1973, patagonia is a surf and

(47:13):
outdoor apparel company based inVentura, california.
As a certified B Corp and afounding member of 1% for the
planet, the company isrecognized internationally for
its product quality andenvironmental activism, as well
as its contributions of nearly$230 million to environmental
organizations.
Its unique ownership structurereflects that the earth is its

(47:34):
only shareholder.
Profits not reinvested backinto the business are paid as
dividends to protect the planet.
Learn more at patagoniacomau.
Many of us look to supplementsand special diets to maintain
our health, but ignore theobvious we are water, it's what
we're made of and it's whatsupports every bodily function.

(47:55):
Primal water, the water ourancestors thrived on, is
energized, alkaline and made forreal hydration.
It doesn't come from theindustrialized, often
contaminated water systems mostof us rely on.
For the last 25 years, alkawayhas been researching and
refining ways to mimic naturalwater systems.
We invite you to learn moreabout Primal Water and support

(48:17):
their charitable work withBirdLife Australia.
Head to alkawaycom to score a$50 discount using code
WATERPEOPLE that to alkawaycomto score a $50 discount using
code WATERPEOPLE.
That's alkawaycom.
What do you do when yoursunglass lenses inevitably get
scuffed or scraped?
The top drawer of our kitchenisland was where scratched
sunglasses went to die Until welearned about the Sunglass Fix.

(48:39):
They've been at the forefrontof the repair revolution since
2006 and carry more than 600,000lens options, so there's a
solution for every frame.
We found our Cennies on thesunglassfixcom and within a few
days, received brand newpolarized lenses to easily
install at home.
A billion pairs of sunglassesare made each year, with

(48:59):
hundreds of millions ending upin landfill.
The Sunglass Fix offers freelens shipping in Australia and
to 161 countries around theworld, as well as subsidized
express tracked shippingworldwide for less than $5 in
any currency.
They're a proud member of 1%for the planet and are ready to
help make your favorite frameslast longer.
Use the code WATERPEOPLE for10% off your purchase today at

(49:23):
thesunglassfixcom.
Transitioning out of being aprofessional athlete is
notoriously tricky for almosteveryone.
It looks like you've done itreally healthfully from the
outside, moving from this veryaesthetically based world into

(49:44):
this incredible capability basedworld and existence that you've
created for yourself as someonewho lived off grid and you've
built a business and you coachwomen in surfing now.
But I'm curious how was thetransition for you and what did
it look and feel like for you?

Speaker 1 (50:02):
I do see that some people struggle with it.
For me it didn't feel hard.
I think that when I look atother people that struggle, I
think that there's thecombination between when you're
a pro surfer and you just thinkyou're the shit, you know.
It's like everybody's tellingyou how awesome you are and
you're getting all thisattention and you're, you know,
maybe you're winning contests oryou're in magazines or whatever

(50:24):
, and then you're done and thenyou're like what?
I'm just a normal person, I'mgoing to go lay brick or
something and like for me, Istruggled with self-confidence,
even if from the outside I hadto put on this mask of
confidence, like to show up atthe photo shoot and to like do
the thing, but inside I neveractually believed it.

(50:49):
I always felt like an imposter.
So maybe that helped thetransition, because all of a
sudden I was able to stoppretending to be something I
wasn't, and then also becauseI'd gotten an education, and
then, while I was on tour,actually, I got an MBA.
In the process of getting an MBA, you write like a million
business plans, and so one ofthe business plans I had written
as an assignment was a surfschool in Nicaragua, because
obviously I was fascinated bythat.
So every all the business plansI made, I tried to like make

(51:11):
them like somehow related tosurfing, and I was like you know
what, maybe I could do this.
And in that era so that was2010.
In that era, I'm pretty surethere were only two women's surf
camps in existence there wasLas Olas in Mexico and there was
actually another one inNicaragua Chupacabrava and so I
was like, well, it is a thingthat exists, but there's not

(51:31):
that much of it.
So maybe I could do that.
And I sort of kind of startedtalking to people about it and I
was still getting paid as a prosurfer.
I had stopped competing, but Istill had like some money coming
in.
It wasn't the bigger dollarsthat I had before, but I had
like a couple of contracts thatI had a couple of years left and
like all I needed to do is goon a few trips and like go to
the trade shows, and so I didn'thave that immediate need to

(51:55):
actually make money that I thinkthat some people, when their
their checks run out now, theyhad to go figure it out, and
then like now, and so I didn't,I had like a little bit of
leeway and then also living inNicaragua is so cheap,
especially in that era, likethere was nothing to spend money
on except for food.
That was it Off the grid, youknow, like there's no electrical

(52:16):
bill.
There was no internet at thetime, like there was barely any
cell signal, and so maybe atthat point I was getting like
two grand a month or something,which was plenty to live on.
And then there was a women'ssurf club in Huntington that I,
when I was at the trade show,the woman from the surf club was
like oh hey, like do you wantto come and like speak at like a

(52:37):
meetup that we're having?
And I was like yeah, of courseI'd love to.
And I sort of kind of mentionedto her yeah, I'm thinking about
maybe starting this women'ssurf camp.
And she was like oh well, when?
Like I'll bring a group, likelet's do it.
And I was like oh, I mean, Idon't know, like maybe next year
.
She's like no, I'll bring agroup now.
And and so it kind of just allfell into place.

(52:58):
Like all of a sudden I had hersaying hey, I have 10 girls that
want to come.
When, when can we come?
And that was like the push tobe like all right.
Well, I guess I'd better figureout like where I'm going to
house them and like how I'mgoing to do it.
And so it really happened supernaturally, where I had the
business plan.
I had fallen in love with theplace, like I had the
connections and, you know, I hadthe name recognition

(53:21):
recognition too, so that, likeother people like trying to do
that, you know you have to likestart something from scratch.
At least I already had like thewhatever respect to do it, and
so it actually wasn't a hardtransition.
It actually felt so good to beable to like I always used to
say I'm like putting on the mask, like I'm gonna go be Holly
Beck today, because it wasn'tlike that image wasn't who I've

(53:43):
actually felt I was, and so itwas such a relief to be able to
put that down.
And and yet, the things that Imissed most about that life was
traveling and having like crazyadventures with other bad-ass
women.
And when I moved to Nicaragua,there were no women.
I mean, there were like localwomen, but like there weren't
women in the water and the boysthat would show up they would

(54:04):
bring girlfriends that thosegirlfriends weren't out surfing
that way, like now there's womenthat surf that wave, but in
that era there were no womenthat surf that wave.
And so kind of like, okay, well, these boys are cool, but I do
miss that girl energy.
And so in starting the retreatit was like, oh well, this is
how I'm going to get my girlenergy.
Like I'm going to bring inthese girls and I'm going to

(54:25):
take them surfing and I'm goingto teach them how to surf, I'm
going to empower them and allthe things that I didn't have
when I was learning to surf I'mgoing to facilitate them having
and that's going to serve mebecause it's going to pay the
bills and also it's going togive me that like girl vibes
that's going to keep my spiritgoing.
And so it just all worked out.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
It really seems like being in the right place at the
right time has been a recurringtheme for you over the course of
your career.
I mean, of course, you'reincredibly talented and
intelligent and have anincredible work ethic.
But like the time you came ofage in surfing and even how
surfing found you, thataccidentally delivered Surfer
Magazine that ended up in yourmailbox and that was your
introduction to surfing and thenyou just knew you've had quite

(55:07):
a fated surfing life.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
It seems like I say that all the time it was the
being in the right place, theright age with the right look
still takes that OK, but I'mgoing to do it and I'm going to
show up and I'm going to put inthe effort and I'm going to put
on the mask and do the dance andmake it happen.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
That makes me think of.
You know that saying the wayyou do anything is the way you
do everything kind of thing, andI've noted that in other
conversations you've had withpeople like this one we're
having now.
You speak about how people'spersonalities and their way in
life is really apparent whenthey're in the water, and I know
that's something we can reallyrelate to.

(55:46):
We see that a lot here,especially because we live where
there's long waves and I thinkon a point break you really have
a lot of time and so you get tosee people's personality very
clearly in the lineup and on thewave itself.
Has that been one of the likethe funnest things about doing

(56:06):
what you do and like being withpeople who are beginning or
being with people who are justdeepening their surfing
experience.
How does that feel to see thatso often?
Like to see people maybe seethemselves when they're in the
water and experience that kindof magnification that comes from
surfing?

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about
actually watching the people onthe wave.
That is true, I think, more solike how they're navigating the
lineup, but I like that.
When you were describing that,I was like imagining, yeah, how
they surf too.
It's true, it's part of it andI think that that part has been
something that I've gotten intomore recently.
Just like you know, I've beendoing the retreats for 15 years

(56:49):
now and in it, definitely overthe years, starting to notice
those things.
Like in a retreat setting, it'slike you're actually hanging
out for a week so you get achance to, over a glass of wine
or, you know, over coffee in themorning, like start to get to
know people on and hear about,like their relationship or their
job or whatever.
It is like you hear they tellstories about their life that

(57:12):
has nothing to do with surfing,and then when you see them in
the water drawing that parallel,I think, with women, you know,
talking about all these things,it's like all the same themes,
like what I notice with a lot ofwomen.
Of course, not all is the theseissues around, like using their
voice, like speaking up fortheir true feelings and taking

(57:32):
up space and feeling like theybelong and also how they manage
fear and anxiety and like thosethings.
Like I would hear people talkabout, yeah, their relationship
with their partner and be like,oh, but yeah, it's really annoys
me when he does that all thetime, but like I can't say
anything because that's just him.
And then I would see them inthe water then being paddled

(57:53):
around and clearly frustratedbut just being like, oh, I'm,
that's just the way it is in thewater with the men you know,
and, and so it's beeninteresting to notice that.
And then you know I got the MBAwhich helped me transition into
starting the business inNicaragua, and then, after 10
years of doing that, I sort offelt like a similar stagnation.

(58:15):
The business was kind ofcruising and doing its thing and
like feeling really good at thelevel that it was at, and I had
all these like amazing peoplethat were part of the team.
I have a business partner thatis.
Really she and I together arewhat made Surf With Amiga what
it is, and I'd had kids and youknow I felt like I was like,
okay, like I need newinspiration, like a new kind of

(58:36):
almost challenge and bringing inlike the therapy part of it.
I had a sister who actuallypassed away from a drug overdose
she and her husband both andwhen that it was right before
COVID, like six months beforeCOVID and all of a sudden mental
health became this thing wherenow I'm actually looking at,
like my relationship to surfingand how am I coping with things

(59:00):
in the surf and how is mybehavior in the surf relating to
my behavior outside the surf.
And I decided to get a master'sin counseling and thinking that
, you know, I didn't even knowsurf therapy was a thing.
I mean I knew like surf therapy, like taking blind kids surfing
, or like taking veteranssurfing, or like autistic kids,

(59:20):
you know, like surfers healing,like.
I knew that those thingsexisted.
But as I was studying, thinkinglike okay, I'm going to have to
move back to the U?
S to like be there for myfamily, and because my sister
and brother-in-law left kidsbehind but now don't have
parents and I had gottendivorced and my kid's dad had
moved back to the U?
S.
So I feel like I need to likegive up my selfish needs, to

(59:42):
like just get barreled and Ineed to like go do what's right
for my family and I need to goback to the U?
S and COVID had started andinternational surf tourism was
not a thing.
And so I don't know what'sgoing to happen with my business
and I'm going to.
It's now time for my thirdcareer, like, this is my third
act.
I was a pro surfer and then Ihad a surf retreat business and
now my grownup girl job I'mfinally getting and I'm going to

(01:00:05):
be a.
I'm going to be a therapist andI'm going to be able to set my
own hours and be my own boss,which is really important to me.
And then, along the way, Irealized that surf therapy is a
modality and I got my internshipwith surf therapy and even that

(01:00:46):
organization was really morefocused on people who had never
surfed before.
It was like people who areworking with homeless
populations and Syrian refugeesand you.
They could like reconnect withtheir body.
So it was along those samelines of like autistic kids and
all the other things.
And, granted, those populationsall need the ocean as much as
the rest of us.
But that wasn't really what Ifelt called to do, like I was
more interested in.
Look at me I appear very highfunctioning.
I don't have a severe substanceabuse problem.
I've done all of these things,and yet I have a lot of trauma
and pain and things that, like,I'm probably not dealing with
super healthfully, and so I wantto approach surfing from a more

(01:01:08):
healthy perspective and likehow can I be more intelligent
about using surfing in a waythat it's not just an addiction?
It's like I don't have asubstance abuse addiction.
I have a surfing addiction, butthat's a problem too, because
if, if you're addicted goodwaves and then you don't get
good waves like you hear peopletalk about, like if I can't go
surfing, like I'm not okay, Iused to identify with that as

(01:01:29):
well, and so it made me look atmy own surf practice.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Maybe, maybe I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
No one here can relate to that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
It made me look at my own surf practice and then it
made me also think of like, if Icould do therapy in the water
and like still help people whoappear very high functioning but
have all the anxiety,depression, fear of taking up
space, fear of using their voice, like overcoming from an
accident or whatever, or justfear of, like, getting a wipe

(01:02:00):
out on a big wave or wiping outin front of other people, then
then that would be really cooland it would go back to like the
things that I loved about beinga surf coach, but be able to
approach it not just like hey,two more paddles and look down
the line and more weight on yourfront foot, but also what was
going through your head as youdecided to pull out of that wave
.
Not just like, hey, you shouldhave paddled a couple more times

(01:02:22):
, and that part has been really,really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
That sounds like it would be really rewarding.
I've never done therapy, I'venever necessarily been called to
it, but I have this experiencefrom when I was a kid that I
feel like has definitely shapedmy surfing and I've let it hold
me back in some ways.
I was late 80s, early 90s.
I was on a boat with my mom andher boyfriend.

(01:02:46):
They were drinking, having agood time.
It was Florida, in theintercoastal, like that's what
you did, and we parked at one ofthe little islands in the
intercoastal and the water waspretty deep I couldn't touch and
my mom's boyfriend he thought Icould swim but I couldn't swim
and he just chucked me off theside, like having a good time.
And I just remember like goingunder and seeing their faces and

(01:03:08):
it took them.
You know, it probably wasn'tlong, but there was a moment
where they didn't realize that Iwas in trouble but I was and
they got me and I was fine.
But I feel like that experienceof feeling unsafe really
translates into the ocean.
I am irrationally panicky inmoments where I'm getting

(01:03:28):
cleaned up, specifically.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Well, you know, what I would say is that that's not
irrational, right, it's notirrational.
That is totally understandable,that you would have that, of
course you would.
Your little self, these peoplethat you trust to keep you safe
just threw you into the waterand you weren't safe.
So your body remembers that,even though now your mind is

(01:03:52):
like no, it's irrational, it'sridiculous, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Yeah, that was like a manifestation of feeling unsafe
and sort of a larger culture offeeling unsafe because of
addiction and substance abusethat was happening around me.
But I come back to that momentand now I'm wondering well, I
can talk about it, it's not likeit's blocked, it's not like
it's not like I can't verbalize,but what do I do with it now to
move past it and to confront itin a healthy way?

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Right.
So I would say the first stepis to give yourself grace for
feeling that way, like changingthe narrative for, like this is
irrational and I just need tomove past it.
Like I think that a lot ofpeople have that a bad
experience in the surf or, likeyou, a child experience in the
water, and you're like, oh, thisis ridiculous.
It's not like your body stillremembers and I know that you

(01:04:42):
guys have a kid, just one, maybe.
Imagine that that kid came toyou and was like I'm really
upset.
I'm really upset and you'relike that's irrational.
Like what is your child goingto do?
They're going to keep cryingabout it, right, and they might
even get even louder becauseit's like I'm not being, you're
not hearing me.
You clearly don't understandthat I'm upset.
And until you take your childin your arms and say I see you,

(01:05:09):
like it's totally understandablethat you're upset, I'm going to
be here with you in thatfeeling of being upset, Right,
and I'm sure that you canimagine, like, what your child
would do in that setting.
They would just like relax intoyour arms.
What your child would do inthat setting.
They would just like relax intoyour arms, and so that's what,
like you probably have likelittle you that's still in there
.
That had that experience,probably hasn't gotten that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Does that mean I can take Lauren out in a couple of
days when it's 10 foot here andif we go into the impact zone?

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
and I wrap my arms around her like this which would
be so awesome for me.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
And we just give a really nice cuddle in the flats
before coughing one on the headand I just calm her down.
Is that the kind of thing youmean?
Should I do that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Maybe eventually, oh my God.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Oh yes, thank you, I've got permission, just then,
that is certified permission?
Yes, I got permission, justthen you gotta cut off me.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
That is certified permission, yeah, but I mean
there's a whole process andthere's different modalities.
I've learned a somatic way, soit would be going through kind
of a guided visualization oflike if you could go back in
time and take your however oldyou were five or something year
old self into your arms afterthat experience, like how could
you comfort her?

(01:06:26):
And when she is reminding you,when the surf is gnarly, she's
reminding you of this trauma,instead of being like shh, or
don't talk to me, or this isstupid, or like I'm angry.
I don't know about you, but Iknow that a lot of women and
even myself, you get angry atyourself for being afraid, and
so it's like removing that angerand finding like acceptance and

(01:06:49):
love.
Then that can help that part ofyou feel seen to then be like
okay, that was the healing thatI didn't get and that can help
kind of put it aside and thenand then get a new, a new voice.
Like if the little voice iscrying and saying no, the
water's unsafe and I feel scaredand I almost drowned, if that
voice is still hasn't beencalmed, then it's hard to come

(01:07:12):
in with the voice that says Ican do it, I'm safe Hasn't
really occurred to me until thelast couple of years, and maybe
having a child who is around thesame age that I was when that
happened, I mean, maybe notthat's not the only reason.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
But now I've sort of gotten more interested in riding
, you know, mid-length slightlywell, much shorter boards than
I've been accustomed to ridingin the past, and also wanting to
try and get barreled more,sitting more in the pocket in
places where long boards don'tusually put you, and so I'm
facing it more and more infalling, and I have always
crafted my surfing around, notfalling and not taking risks for

(01:07:48):
other reasons too, like I grewup in Florida where you could
surf around no people, so Inever wore leg ropes, and that
teaches you to fall in a certainway where you don't lose your
board.
There's other elements, butalso there's this fear piece
that I think at some point Iprobably need to really sit with
in a meaningful way and that'swhat's cool about surf therapy
as opposed to like talk therapy,because talk therapy it's like

(01:08:11):
it would be like this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
It's like you would tell me the experience that you
had and then you would talk itthrough, maybe do like a guided
visualization and like somebreathing, and talk it through.
And then you're like, okay,right, right now I'm going to do
whatever.
But the cool thing about surftherapy is then, like we do that
and then now we're going to gosurf together in waves that
might be just to the edge of thecomfort zone, like there's no

(01:08:33):
point in going way far out, likethe 10 foot pounding waves,
like that is just going to overoverwhelm it, maybe like the
forefoot waves right.
Then you go out together andthen it's like okay, like, let's
work this through.
Like is that voice coming up?
What is she saying?
What does she need to hear?
You know, and you can kind ofwork with it in the moment.

(01:08:55):
Maybe we're good, or maybe weneed to go back into the
whitewash and play a little bit,get back into like the play
mode, or maybe just going backto the beach, and it's really
fun to do.
That I've done, you know, ingetting my counseling degree,
doing so many zoom calls.
It's like the person's likeyeah, well, you know, the last
last week, my mother in law andblah, blah, blah, and then I
said, and then I felt in surfing, it's like it's all in real

(01:09:18):
time.
So like maybe the personreports to me oh, I didn't go on
that way because the guy wasthere and I'm like because, like
, when I saw your face, it'slike let's, let's talk more
about that.
And they're like okay, well,yeah, maybe actually I did feel,
you know, the fear, come back.
It's really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
What is the research, if there's any say about the
role of nature in the therapyprocess, in the surf therapy
process?

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
There's a lot of research.
Like I said, though, the bulkof the research has been done on
people without prior surfexperience.
So I graduated in 2021.
So it's been a few years andmaybe there's been since.
I was like looking at theresearch.
So maybe there's been a morerecent paper that's actually
looking at people with existingsurf skills.

(01:10:02):
But when I was going through theprocess and having to write all
the papers, of course I likeread every single paper there
was on the efficacy of surftherapy, and every one was
taking people that don't haveocean experience and putting
them in the ocean.
And so, of course, like anyonethat goes into the ocean, it's
like suddenly you're in yourbody, you know you have to be

(01:10:23):
present, like us, as surfersknow.
Like you can't turn your backon the ocean.
Like as soon as you're like inyour mind and like tripping out
on something else, like you gettaken out by a wave or you miss
the really good wave or whateverit is.
But when you jump in the waterand you feel, you know the
sensation of the water and thesmell and the sound and and all
of that, it activates so manysenses that you have to be

(01:10:44):
present.
But what I haven't seen is onlike the difference of helping
someone over like a surfer thatalready has that, that's like
already used to being in thewater and having the benefits,
but that can approach theseissues like fear or whatever,
using surfing as the modality todo that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
I think it's really useful information and also kind
of something that taps into theexperience Hopefully a lot of
us have.
Where we live in an area wherethere are older surfers and you
may know a couple of oldersurfers who have that sparkle in
their eye still.
They don't have the good olddays chip on their shoulder.

(01:11:28):
They're still presently at thebeach looking at where they are
and how they feel and basicallyjust thriving people, functional
and living wonderfully.
And we look at them and we go,wow, I would love to be like
that, I want to be like that asI grow older and, you know,
hopefully we can haveconversations with those people

(01:11:50):
and, you know, learn somethingfrom those conversations.
And I think what you're sayinghere, like giving that
experience more attention and usrealizing how we incorporate
surfing into a wonderful life tocontribute to a wonderful world
, would be such a greatcontribution.

(01:12:10):
And who better than someonelike yourself, someone like us,
who have had so many hours inthe water?
who have traveled to so manydifferent coastal cultures and
learned things from each of them.
I just think it is superexciting and I didn't know this
is where this conversation wasgoing to go.
So I'm really excited that thiswill be shared with people,

(01:12:31):
because I guess at the center ofit is the feeling of making
surfing meaningful and useful inthe world.
Can you relate to that idea?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Yeah, and you know, one thing that I really want to
get a chance to talk about,because it's been on my mind a
lot and coming from thispredominantly women's space,
where a lot of the things that Isee are issues around belonging
and taking up space, and thereason that that is such an
issue is, I think, because ofthese like competitive lineups,

(01:13:03):
and I know you all live near aplace that's very crowded and I
don't know how it is there, buthere I also live at Point Breaks
that are like very crowded andthe culture of surfing that I
grew up in in the nineties wasvery much like locals have
priority Always.
Better surfers have priorityAlways.
You know, if you don't livehere and you don't rip, then you

(01:13:26):
don't deserve to be at the peakand the better surfer or the
local is going to paddle aroundyou and that's that's good, like
that's normal, and priority isdetermined by the surfer deepest
.
So if you're a stronger surferthat can sit deeper, then you
get more waves and thecombination of working with a
lot of women and trying tospread this knowledge that like,

(01:13:50):
listen, you don't have to havehad the privilege to grow up
right in front of the wave or tohave had the privilege to start
surfing when you were young inorder to deserve the opportunity
to catch waves and you belongout here because the ocean
welcomes all of us and we allhave a place in the water.
And lately I have been noticingthat all of the talk around

(01:14:14):
etiquette is still only pushingthe idea that the surfer deepest
has priority and like recentlyI saw a surf line on Instagram
put out this like series ofslides with this like animated
line drawings that were reallycool and I was like really
engaged and I was like what arethey saying?
Because I teach etiquette, likeI believe that as part of
learning to surf, it's reallyimportant to understand the

(01:14:36):
rules, the rules of surfing andhow to navigate a lineup, so
that these women can go outthere and feel confident and
feel safe that they understandhow to navigate surfing with
other people.
And and I used to teach,because that was how I was
taught that the salty legendthat's maybe you're talking
about that surfed there for likebefore you were born you know

(01:14:58):
that that person women or womanor man has priority because
they're the salty legend andthey deserve our respect and
they're going to get more setwaves and like the if you're
talking about living in CostaRica as I do that the pure Tico
local.
He deserves more waves and so Iused to teach that to the women
.
And then I had this friend thatreally challenged me to say but

(01:15:21):
is that right?
Because they had the privilegeto grow up in this spot or
they've been serving therelonger?
Does that mean that they getmore access to waves, like
they're more deserving ofcatching waves?
And the more I've been thinkingabout it I feel like no, like
imagine if just like 10 of uswere to all go out and surf like

(01:15:43):
your local break, and we're allfriends.
There's somebody on a soft top,there's a woman of color who
just learned to surf it's herfirst day ever and she's really
nervous.
And you know, there's DaveRostovich, like famous, world
famous professional surfer.
And Lauren Hill at her homebreak.
Like shouldn't it be that ifthere were just a few of us that

(01:16:04):
we would take turns and wewould make sure that everybody
got away Right, and like that ishow surfing should be?
But nobody's really not.
I won't say nobody.
Surfing should be, but nobody'sreally not.
I won't say nobody serving atlarge is not teaching that.
If you look at surf line andthey talk about etiquette, which
I just saw.
What they said it did say youknow, surf at a spot that's like

(01:16:26):
, appropriate for your skilllevel, paddle around the peak,
don't drop in on people, andwhoever's deepest has priority.
And so at these breaks that I'vebeen surfing lately, I noticed
these guys that are paddlingcircles around everyone.
In some cases they're goodsurfers, in other cases they're.
They look like they learned asadults but they're competent and

(01:16:47):
they're just doing laughs and Ithink that it's easy to be the
women on the shoulder and gothat guy's an asshole.
And lately now I've been likeI've been trying to model, like
using your voice.
If somebody's paddling aroundin circles, I'm a good surfer,
right, I could go paddle, battlethat guy to the top of the
point and end up taking offdeeper, like I could challenge
him and like win, because I knowthis wave and I know how to

(01:17:08):
surf.
But this woman that I'mcoaching, she can't do that, so
I'm going to model for her, likehey, if this guy paddles around
you three times, what can youdo?
Maybe you can have aconversation and let him know
that you would like to get awave too.
And in having thoseconversations recently I've been
realizing that a lot of thesepeople just don't know that

(01:17:30):
you're supposed to take turns.
These men have said back to mebut I was deepest.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
What you're saying is such a huge issue in surfing,
holly, I'm so glad you broughtit up.
I feel like it's a symptom ofsurfing culture having once been
something that was so communalin ancient Polynesia and other
places around the world whensurfing was party waves that's
what it was.
And then Southern Californiaturned it into something else

(01:17:55):
altogether and we're coming tothe pointy end of the like
logical endpoint of thatindividualized pursuit, which is
fine when you're surfing abeach break in Florida with no
people around.
But if you're surfing Snapperand you've got 200 people who
all have the same idea about howthe lineup works, it is going
to be totally dysfunctional andit like lots of places.

(01:18:17):
And now many of us are trying tothink about how do we take that
old system and then also thenewer old system of localism and
enforcement and using ourvoices hopefully not in an
aggressive way, but also in aresponsible way how do we
enforce or introduce theseconversations of taking

(01:18:39):
responsibility for the spacesthat we're all sharing?
And I would say maybe it's notnecessarily that learner's
responsibility to say something,but ideally one of the other
competent surfers in the lineupwould see what was happening and
say something.
So many times I've been in asituation in the water a guy's
dropped in on me and is abusingme or whatever, and I wish that

(01:19:02):
someone else would have steppedin and said something, because
it would land differently forthat person than me saying
something.
And now I try to be that person.
For other people, especiallywomen in the water, just say you
know, like hey, mate, that'snot okay.
People, especially women in thewater, just say you know, like
hey, mate, that's not okay.
And we're all trying to have agood time here and let's give
other people a chance.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
It's hard, but I think that's where we have to go
when you have that conversation.
Do you find that to be true?
Where, if you have aconversation with someone
advocating for someone else andsay, hey, we're trying to like
work together here, do you findthat that person understands
that it would be nicer to taketurns, but just isn't, because
my experience has been that theyreally just like no, but I was

(01:19:43):
deepest, so that means I getmore.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Yeah, it's mixed, it's definitely mixed.
But I feel like if you canreally connect with someone and
point it out to them, a lot ofthe time they'll say, yeah,
you're right and you know,pointing out the person on the
shoulder who's like trying tolearn and have a good time, and
it's fair for everyone to getwaves, like sometimes that lands
okay and they get it right andthey'll be a little more

(01:20:06):
generous Not always, sometimesthey just get angry.
But if someone else steps up,if there's three or four or five
people who back each other up,then that person's going to have
a much harder time ofcontinuing to be a dickhead.

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):
Right.
It does baffle me that even youknow how, like in a lot of surf
breaks in the world now,they're doing those signs, that
that kind of like.
I know there's one in otherplaces that's like here are the
rules, and again, I feel likethe rule that's not on there is
that we're going to take turns.
It's purely if you're deeper,you get priority and I get like

(01:20:43):
snapper with 200 people there'sno taking turns out there.
And if it's just a handful ofus and you all know each other,
then yeah, you're probably goingto take turns.
But I think the issue is inbetween and like that idea that
everyone has the right to catcha wave and that it's a communal
thing, that we should be workingtogether, and I just feel like

(01:21:05):
that is that message.
I'm not hearing it and so I'vebeen trying to speak it as much
as possible.
So thanks for providing theopportunity to have the
conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Really important, really important.
I haven't heard you speak muchabout the relationship between
your surfing and mothering.
I'm wondering how that's beenplaying out for you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
It's been a journey and, like I said, at no point I
used to have not a super healthyrelationship with surfing, in
the sense that I felt like itwas the only coping mechanism I
had.
And so I surfed pretty lateinto my pregnancy.
But you know, you get to thatpoint where I don't know maybe
you had surfed until the day yougave birth, but that wasn't my
experience and you get to thatpoint where I just like couldn't
surf anymore.

(01:21:50):
And then in the first fewmonths of being a new mom it was
really hard for me because youknow that's a struggle in those
days and the coping mechanismthat you have you can't do, is
really hard.
And you know, it's kind of goneup and down, like right now my
kids are about to be nine and 11.
They both have birthdays comingup soon and we've kind of come
to this other side, where now myson, my nine-year-old he loves

(01:22:13):
surfing and he's super into it.
He just learned how to duckdive.
It's adorable and he's thislittle skinny, little light guy
but he can now duck dive andhe's obsessed and he's like did
you see that turn?
I did, like whoop-pow, and it'sreally cool.
And my daughter, she's 11.
And she's been surfing sinceshe was a baby and she's been

(01:22:34):
surfing since she was a baby andshe's very competent at it, but
it's just, it's not her thingand she has days where she wants
to surf and days that shedoesn't.
And it's been a challenge forme because obviously I want her
to be out there, I want her tolove it, like I don't care if
they're competitive surfers orthey're like ripping surfers, I
just want them to be able tocome surfing with me so that we
can be out there together.
And some days that happens andother days he wants to surf and

(01:22:57):
she doesn't, and I'm like havingto feel torn between do I like
swim in the shore break or do Ilike paddle out the back with
him.
And yeah, it impacts my surfingbecause I just don't have the
time to go.
And it's actually beensomething that I've been really
like struggling with lately andI think it relates to that
conversation that we were justhaving that I don't get to serve

(01:23:20):
as much and now when I do goserving, I don't want to fight
for waves Like I just don't.
I don't want to fight Like.
I want to go out there and likebe able to have this like
communal experience where, likeI'm giving wave away to this
person and giving way to thatperson and like party waving
with my son and then I'm like,okay, I'm going to catch one for

(01:23:40):
myself and then we're going togo back and have lunch.
I go sit at the top of the pointand I feel like everybody's
paddling circles around me andyou know, I'm just been in this
having fun, sharing waves, vibe,and it gets really frustrating
to where, in some ways, like Iactually rode the mat the other
day I know you two are mataficionados and I was like
riding the mat just to try tolike reconnect with, like I just

(01:24:03):
can't take it so seriously.
But of course I mean, maybe youfeel differently.
Like I love riding the mat andit's super fun, but it doesn't
give me the same feeling as likesmacking the lip and so like at
some point I feeling as likesmacking the lip and so like at
some point I just feel like Ineed to like smack the lip and
sometimes it's hard, you know,balancing all those things yeah,

(01:24:23):
I think one of the interestingthings about surfing in terms of
like social aspects is thatit's just so varied.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
you know, you can go to a beach, and a lot of us do
this around the world.
We go to a beach where thewaves are less predictable,
they're a little funky, they'rewhat some people would say less
quality, but you get the spacefrom your fellow human and
that's a way to do it.
And then there's, I guess, justother times where we just have
to figure out how to be together, you know, and things like the

(01:24:55):
mat, things like just bodysurfing, things like just
shaking things up, like that canbe really good for us,
especially if we get railroadedinto old behavioral patterns
where you want to go to the topof the point and you want to sit
the deepest, and I totally dothat all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
I can relate to what you're saying.
Like my way of doing the socialthing is I just put the
blinkers on, but I'll do thatall the time.

Speaker 3 (01:25:15):
I can relate to what you're saying.
I was going to say, yeah, likemy way of doing the social thing
is I just put the blinkers on,but I'll do that for three waves
and then I'm out of there.
I don't do that for very long,but I'm just like, look, you
know what?
I don't really want to sit outhere and talk with other humans
for two or three hours and catcha gentle three or four waves
and then be out of here.
I actually just want to ridesome waves.

(01:25:36):
So I'll just see the ways whereI see them, but I'll just do
that like two, maybe three timesand then I'm out of there and
that's sort of my way ofnavigating those densely social
lineups.
I wouldn't do that in a quietlineup.
But you know, when you'retalking, like over 50 people or
something, that's kind of how itrolls for me, you usually
prioritize going.

Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
You like sacrifice.
Quote sacrificing quality forquiet space yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
So I guess knowing ourselves in that situation,
like how much pressure you mayhave on your, your need to go
surfing, is a healthy thing tounderstand.
Okay, look, I really need tohave a bit of time out of mind
and away from the human storyand and so it's less about, like
you know, having the quality ofa wave where you can do
specific things that you reallywant to do, like top turns and

(01:26:23):
tubes and stuff, and just go allright.
Well, maybe my need is more forspace than it is for the
technical stuff, and you know,those sort of reflections can be
healthy for us before we couldjust sort of launch into sort of
automated behaviors.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Yeah, it's hard, though.
Yeah, I'd love for you to leaveus with something a little
something practical from yourholistic surf coaching practice.
Is there an exercise or aquestion or a prompt of deeper
thinking that you can leave uswith to ponder as we go about
our day?

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
The practice that I've been trying to do is,
before I go out, it's nice to beable to observe the lineup and
maybe stretch a little bit orwarm up or whatever people do.
That's focused on okay, wheream I going to paddle out and
who's out there and where arethe waves breaking, and also
warming up your body, but alsokind of checking in with your
emotional state and being like,okay, where am I at right now

(01:27:22):
and what do I actually want toleave on the beach.
I'm going to leave thefrustration with my kid not
putting their shoes on when it'stime to go and what do I need
to find in the water.
And it kind of like goes towhat you were saying, dave, too,
about what do I need today?
Do I need to just like go andbe silly or be social, or do I
need to go and put the blinderson and just get like two waves?

(01:27:43):
But I think the one thing thatI would want to leave with
people more is like kind of tiedinto what we were talking about
earlier is that if you areexperiencing fear or anxiety in
the water based on a pastexperience, which is super
normal it's giving yourselfgrace for that, because I feel
like a lot of people are likethat's stupid and I just need to

(01:28:06):
push past it.
But really the most importantthing is what would you say to
your child if they wereexperiencing that?
Or a best friend, if you don'thave a kid, if a friend came to
you and said that they werereally scared?
Or a best friend if you don'thave a kid?
If a friend came to you andsaid that they were really
scared because of something youknow, most likely you wouldn't
be like that's dumb, like I'mmad at you for feeling that way.
You'd be like oh, that was areally scary experience that you

(01:28:27):
had.
Like that's totallyunderstandable why you would be
afraid.
But I think that we don't dothat to ourselves, and so that's
what I would invite people todo Like, whatever it is,
whatever emotion that you'reexperiencing, to try to just
ignore it or tell yourself youshouldn't be having it and push
through it is not going to beeffective.
But if you can take a moment tocheck in, what am I feeling,

(01:28:49):
why am I feeling that?
And then go.
Well, it's understandable thatI would be upset or I would be
scared or I would be angry,whatever, because that's normal,
considering what I justexperienced, and once you can
kind of give yourself grace forthat, then it's easier to put it
down and then go paddle out.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Time is precious.
Thanks for spending some ofyours listening with us today.
Our editor this season is themulti-talented Ben Jake
Alexander.
The soundtrack was composed byShannon Sol Carroll, with
additional tunes by Dave and Ben.
We'll be continuing today'sconversation on Instagram, where
we're at waterpeoplepodcast andyou can subscribe to our very

(01:29:29):
infrequent newsletter to getbook recommendations, questions
we're pondering behind thescenes, glimpses into recording
the podcast and more via ourwebsite, waterpeoplepodcastcom.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Holly Beck: Simplicity + Therapy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

All Episodes

Holly Beck: Simplicity + Therapy

Stuff You Should Know