Gamification That Doesn't Suck with Seth Trudeau

Think about your experience with education. What was that experience like? For many of us, organized learning was sort of like a factory. A bunch of students along for the ride, not necessarily wanting to be there, but ingesting a lot of information that was handed down by a teacher, and waiting for a big scary test at the end.

Now think about a time you've played a game. You may have found the game more enjoyable than some of your learning experiences. You’re more active in a game. You get quick feedback in a game. A game is really meant to be fun, even in that big scary test at the end.

Seth Trudeau is someone who thinks education can and should be more like games. He is the founder and managing director of Routine Chaos, where he works with companies to build transformative products through deep product discovery and rigorous product development. He's built games, simulations, and applications for learners from primary school up through postgraduate studies.

We sat down to discuss the potential benefits of gamification in education from classics like “Oregon Trail” to modern games like “Minecraft,” and the importance of creating engaging, skill-building environments in games. We talked about Pokemon tournaments and how such community-driven, game-based learning can be applied to educational contexts. And we looked at project-based and self-directed learning, and how teachers can foster meaningful motivation and interest in students.

Contents:

• 00:58 Games vs. Traditional Learning
• 02:45 The Evolution of Gamification
• 09:09 Challenges in Educational Gaming
• 11:27 Effective Educational Games Today
• 13:48 The Value of Games in Learning
• 20:18 Gamification in Professional Training
• 24:17 Leveraging LLMs for Scenario-Based Learning
• 27:42 The Pokemon Company and Education
• 36:36 Mixed-Age Communities and No Age-Based Hierarchies
• 37:07 The Pokemon Tournament Experience
• 40:36 Rethinking Traditional Education Hierarchies
• 42:43 The Role of Critical Thinking in Education
• 53:45 Conceptual Exposure in Math Education
• 58:11 Project-Based and Interest-Driven Learning
• 01:04:26 Advice for Traditional Classrooms

Links and Further Reading:

• Seth’s writing on gamification: https://routinechaos.substack.com/p/what-if-the-pokemon-company-took
• More of Seth’s thoughts: https://routinechaos.substack.com/p/a-bit-more-on-gamification
• Marc LeBlanc's 8 kinds of fun: http://algorithmancy.8kindsoffun.com
• Jesse Schell's Art of Game Design: https://schellgames.com/art-of-game-design
• The Importance of Play: https://www.routine-chaos.com/introducing-pursuit-of-play/