October 30, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode, Danny and Kimberly unpack the powerful difference between grace and rescuing. Grace means loving with truth—while rescuing means taking responsibility for someone else’s growth. Together they explore what happens when our motivation shifts from love and empathy to fear and control, and how that small shift can quietly lead to resentment and burnout.
They’ll walk through “The Grace With Boundaries Model,” contrasting the heart behind grace versus rescuing, and share practical tools for discerning your own motivations. You’ll learn to ask key questions like:
- Am I doing this out of love or fear?
- Am I taking responsibility for something that isn’t mine?
- Does this act honor both of us equally?
Grace says, “I love you enough to tell the truth and let you grow.”
Rescuing says, “I can’t handle seeing you fail, so I’ll do it for you.”
By the end of this episode, you’ll know how to love others deeply—without losing your boundaries in the process.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Ray (00:00):
We do whatever it Welcome back to another episode
of We Do Whatever It Takes.
I'm Danny Ray.
I'm a magician and pastor, andthis is my incredible bride.
Kimberly (00:12):
I'm Kimberly, and I am an associate marriage and
family therapist.
Danny Ray (00:17):
Woo-woo.
All right.
So what are we talking abouttoday?
Kimberly (00:20):
Today we're talking about something I see quite
often in uh in the counselingoffice.
And I'm not going to be talkingabout anybody specific.
Just give us names andaddresses.
No, no, no.
But so keeping this vague, andyet this is a common problem.
Uh, we're still talking aboutgrace.
This is probably our wrap-up ongrace this season that we've
(00:44):
been talking about.
Um, but there's there's adifficulty, especially for
people in the church, um, peoplewho are are Christians, Christ
followers, and they want to ummake sure they're extending
grace, but there's a there's aline there where that it often
gets muddled and confusing.
(01:05):
So somebody might say, Um,well, my husband comes home
drunk every night and he sayshe'll change, but he doesn't,
and and this is the same patternover and over, but I'm showing
him grace.
Danny Ray (01:19):
And yeah, so this idea this idea of grace isn't uh
isn't the same as what whatJesus is talking about in the
Bible, what God wants us toextend and give to others is
you're continuing to allow abehavior and um excusing a
behavior instead of havingactual change.
(01:42):
Uh and so this idea of grace,it's tricky because we don't
want to put boundaries on grace.
You know, we want that grace togo as high and deep and as wide
as possible.
And then at the same time, wewant to make sure that we're not
being abused or taken advantageof and and people call it
(02:02):
grace.
Yeah.
And that's um that that's alittle bit of the direction
we're going today.
So, Kimberly, talk to us aboutwhat you would do in that
situation and how you help themto understand who they are and
the value of who they are inthat.
Kimberly (02:17):
Yes, that is key.
That yeah, thank you for sayingthat.
So it's it's when we understandour value, who we are in
Christ, that we can feelconfident in saying, wait a
minute, I'm worth more thanthis.
I shouldn't excuse thisbehavior, this pattern that
(02:38):
somebody is doing over and overand over and say, Oh, well,
sorry.
Danny Ray (02:41):
Um And I love you more than just excusing that
behavior.
Like we we want to see changesin our spouse or in somebody
that's hurting or in somebodythat you know needs um to make
healthy changes, you know,whether that's with somebody
dealing with pornography, with agambling addiction, with
drinking, whatever that thatstruggle is, just to say, oh,
(03:03):
you know, they they said they'resorry.
And you know, but it's ifthere's a consistent, constant
pattern, we we need to to go,okay, what are some different
ways that we could bring aboutchange and not just give in and
just say, well, I'll give themgrace or her grace in this
situation.
Kimberly (03:23):
Yeah, because grace by definition means loving with
truth, right?
Grace plus truth equals love.
We it's not enough to just say,well, because truly that's not
biblical grace if we just excusebehavior.
That's really just excusingbehavior and not allowing
(03:45):
somebody to be responsible forthemselves, their actions.
And in fact, for a lot ofpeople, tendency is actually
more women tend to do this, um,but become rescuers, right?
I can fix him.
Uh, and this goes both ways,but I'd say um statistically
speaking, there are a lot morewomen that struggle with this.
(04:06):
Uh, but it's they believe thatthey can rescue.
And the the problem, thedifference between grace with
love and truth is that uhrescuing means taking
responsibility for someoneelse's growth.
Right?
(04:26):
So does that make sense?
So if uh like I'm getting inthe way of your growth if I keep
on just excusing your behaviorand taking Well, the other thing
is I can't take responsibilityfor you, and you can't take
responsibility for me.
Danny Ray (04:41):
Yeah.
And so the first step of movingforward and having
transformation in them in we'llwe'll just say with the person
that's drinking for for to usethat, is that person has to say,
I'm going to takeresponsibility for my actions.
Kimberly (04:56):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (04:57):
I'm aware that I've hurt you.
I'm aware that I'm asking youto just give me grace without
change.
Kimberly (05:05):
But but why would you even do that?
Why would you want to own itand take responsibility if I
just keep excusing it and goingand believing that I'm giving
you grace?
Yeah.
Right.
That's not actually what graceis or what it looks like.
But but if I'm believing that,oh, as a Christ follower, I just
have to show him grace becausehe makes these mistakes.
No, you in this illustrationare not just making mistakes,
(05:30):
you are not owning, not beingresponsible for what you like
you said.
Danny Ray (05:34):
Yeah.
And it's difficult because ofthe, you know, the the tensions
that could be there and the thelove that you have for that
person.
To put this in a differentrealm of either food or an
exercise, right?
Is I can't um I can't go, youknow what?
I'm gonna eat really well foryou when you eat terribly.
I'm like, oh, I so wish youcould.
Kimberly (05:55):
Oh, please eat better for me.
Danny Ray (05:56):
Or I'm gonna do push-ups for you.
Here we go.
Please, yes, yes.
Now you're gonna get strongerbecause I'm doing the push-ups
for you, right?
Kimberly (06:03):
Oh my gosh, I wish it worked like that.
Danny Ray (06:06):
It doesn't make sense in that area, and it doesn't
make sense in any area, but thatmay be a clearer way to see it.
I like that.
I can't do push-ups for you.
Kimberly (06:15):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's something we have toown.
Danny Ray (06:18):
So that might even be a way to have a conversation
about it is to give a physical,you know, the the food or the um
the exercise illustration um asan example to say, hey, I I
want to, and I've been trying todo this, but I realize I can't
do these things for you.
For you to get healthy, youhave to make the decision.
(06:40):
You have to takeresponsibility.
And I want that, but I can't dothat for you.
Kimberly (06:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to talk for a secondabout grace versus rescuing.
Yeah.
Um, the motivation of rescuingis out of fear, guilt, or
control.
Right?
So we have to pause for aminute and and go, okay, what's
my motivation?
I I believe I'm showing grace,but I'm actually rescuing
(07:07):
because I have this fear that ifI don't, I'm gonna go back to
the illustration of let'spretend you come home drunk
every night, which is not true,but just using that as an as an
illustration.
Sure, you're welcome.
Um so if if I operate out offear, well, it's uh it's better
(07:29):
than me being alone.
So I if I fear that you arejust gonna leave me or fear that
I'm gonna be alone if I don'trescue you, if I don't make
excuses for you, right?
I mean, sometimes it's to thepoint where people are, well,
I'll call in sick for youbecause I'm helping.
I'm but but I'm not.
(07:49):
This is an example of trying torescue, and it's never gonna
help you in the long run, right?
And it's motivated by eitherfear, guilt, or maybe even
something control that I want tohave over the situation.
Danny Ray (08:04):
Another like fear in there is the fear of the the
consequences of like what if heor she loses his job, what if,
and but consequences um are whathelps lead to responsibility
and going like, oh wow, I lostmy job.
Oh wow, I didn't pay my carpayment because I, you know,
(08:25):
I've lost my car.
And when you start to have realconsequences for your actions
and they're not excused, they'renot just oh, let's just give
grace to that and kind oftrivial like trivially.
Yeah, thank you.
Uh that's the word, uhtrivializing grace.
And um that that helps people.
(08:45):
That's kind of this God builtinto our world thing, is there's
natural consequences for ouractions.
But when you begin to removethose by um trying to rescue,
yeah, that affects the outcomeand the the possibility of it
happening in a quicker way,which is the result you want,
(09:08):
but you're cutting it short bytrying to make it easy.
Kimberly (09:14):
Another one difference between grace versus rescuing,
yeah.
Um the your view of yourselfwhen you're operating from true
grace is that you believe thatyou are equal with others, that
you believe that you are who Godsays you are, that you're not
(09:34):
operating about, well, I'm I'mless than, so I must put up with
this behavior.
Danny Ray (09:42):
Um versus So when you realize that you're chosen,
that you're loved, that you'reredeemed, that you're forgiven,
that you're made new, that youare a son or a daughter of the
king of kings, then I canoperate and go, I I just I hate
the word deserve, but I I Goddoesn't want this for me, where
I'm just rescuing somebody andand doesn't want that for for
(10:05):
the person who's coming homedrunk every night either.
Kimberly (10:07):
That's not the what what God wants for them either.
Um so grace as far as what itlooks like in action, yes, is
offering support and truth,right?
So I might not well, so if I'moperating out of God's grace,
yeah, I'm it means I'm gonna sayto you the truth that hey, this
(10:29):
is a problem and this isaffecting me, it's affecting
you.
And what do we want to do aboutit?
Or what are you going to doabout it?
Um, so offering support doesn'tmean just like you're on your
own.
Danny Ray (10:43):
A second there.
And so let's say somebodylistening right now, and
remember to make the connection.
This isn't about somebody beingdrunk or about gambling or
about what is a situation thatyou might be excusing or
rescuing or whatever that is.
If somebody's in that situationright now, what's something
they could um a step they couldtake as a rescuer and go, this
(11:07):
would be a better way to handlethis?
And then on the other side ofthat, um, the person that
they're rescuing from whateverthat situation is, what is
something that they couldencourage them, right, to do and
maybe allow um letting themknow like this is going to be
the the new action that I take.
(11:30):
Yeah.
So because just doing somethingand not allowing the other
person to be aware of it couldalso hinder progress.
Kimberly (11:37):
Okay.
I think I'm with you on this.
So um I can definitely speak tothe person who, well, to both
of those, I guess.
The the person who isstruggling with whatever
addiction or or whateverrepeated behavior pattern that's
not healthy.
And their side of it is um istaking responsibility.
(12:02):
That's that's really their theonly option as far as healthy
relationship goes, you've got toown it and and decide that this
is enough.
And I'm gonna surrender it toGod and I'm going to work on it
and get help for it, and I'mgoing to apologize because I see
how it affects my spouse and myfamily and my life.
Danny Ray (12:23):
And remember, our motto here is we do whatever it
takes, and we want to encourageyou to take that.
Is if hypothetically I wasthat, you know, Kim threw me
under this bus if you're thedrunk in this situation.
If I was a drunk and she cameto me and said, I really I'm not
going to excuse this behavioranymore.
You were consistently cominghome drunk.
(12:44):
That's unacceptable.
And I went, I need to dowhatever it takes, right?
Yeah.
I want to do whatever it takes.
If that means a financialdecision we need to make that is
difficult, if it means I needto maybe step away from um
certain people or certainsituations, whatever that is, we
(13:05):
we have that mentality of wewant to do whatever it takes,
regardless of the cost, tocreate a great and healthy
marriage.
Kimberly (13:11):
Oh, I love that so much.
Um, and I think uh what makesthis easy to talk about is that
that by God's grace is somethingwe put into practice all the
time, that we are gonna dowhatever it takes.
And that's a decision we madefrom the beginning.
Danny Ray (13:28):
And doesn't mean that there aren't rough times, there
certainly are, but in our Andjust uh a reminder from the
beginning for us was um I had aporn addiction and you know, our
first year of marriage, I endedup in an adult um bookshop.
And when I walked out of thereand just felt all the shame, and
I we were just married, and Ithought, when we get married,
(13:49):
all these addictions will goaway.
Um lo and behold, they did not.
And then I had to make thedecision do I do I just keep
that secret and she doesn'tknow, and I just continue to in
that behavior, or do I do thehard thing of going to her hat
in hand, humbly, shame like Iwas full of shame.
(14:09):
It felt disgusting and uh Ifelt so weak as a man, but going
to her and just going, like, II need help in this area.
And so she came alongside andwe worked together and went went
to counseling and figured outwhat are some solutions to move
forward.
So it's not like, oh, we wejust have everything together.
(14:30):
We had to figure these thingsout and have long, difficult
conversations on what it lookslike to move forward.
Kimberly (14:37):
Can I tell you something funny?
Danny Ray (14:39):
Oh no.
Kimberly (14:40):
I know these are hard things to share, especially when
we're doing this publicly, tosay, hey, that's that's part of
our story.
Um, but it's hot.
Danny Ray (14:52):
Get out of here.
Kimberly (14:54):
No, it's so I know.
I this I think the the womenout there know what I'm talking
about, but maybe the men too.
There's something very sexyabout the honesty of that, and
that it's something that youthat we worked through and you
buried and is um we're on theother side of.
And no, stop undressing yourshirt.
(15:16):
Keep your shirt on.
This is not that kind ofpodcast, but um, anyway, we
digress.
You did ask me about thank youfor sharing that.
I do, I sorry, I do want to saythat.
Um that's not easy, but Iappreciate that.
Um, you asked me a minute agoabout what can the person who
(15:39):
tends to rescue, what can theylearn?
What can they do differently?
And this is I'm gonna call it agrounding practice.
It's called the the pause.
Like there's even a name forit.
Danny Ray (15:52):
For a moment, for those listeners who've never
heard of like a groundingpractice, can you explain what
that is to begin with?
Kimberly (15:58):
And then a specific grounding technique really has
to do with um keeping your yourlimbic system online, meaning
that you're not going to explodeand get all crazy uh out of
like anger and and operate fromthe the bigger emotions, but
you're gonna breathe and respondin a healthy way.
Danny Ray (16:18):
Okay, so this is one of those practices?
Kimberly (16:20):
Yeah.
This is um essentially pausingbefore responding.
I mean, this is not rocketscience, but uh I've even had
clients this week be like, ohwow, this is life-changing to
learn to pause.
Actually, not just this week,to be honest.
Um, and this is something II've had to work on.
So, anyway, so when you feelpressure to say yes, or your
(16:41):
pattern is just always sayingyes because you're fearful if I
say no, they won't like me, orif I say no, they'll leave me.
Um so if you feel when you feelpressure to say yes, step one
being breathe.
And it really doesn't matter,but just to give you an example,
you could say inhale for four,exhale for six.
(17:04):
But I don't care how you do it,to be honest, just take some
deep breaths.
And number two, pause beforeresponding because we're taking
some breath and we're pausingand ask yourself if I say yes,
am I betraying myself?
Right?
So we a lot of us learned in inchildhood that our needs don't
(17:27):
matter.
Why even look at our needsbecause they're not gonna get
met, or they um we're just sounaware of our own needs because
it was crucial to pleasesomebody, or it was crucial to
uh take care of a parent, maybeis is a common one.
So um so they so we learn notto even be aware of our own
(17:50):
needs.
And so this is a retraining andor a training really for the
first time for a lot of us thatwe go, okay, I'm gonna pause and
I'm gonna be aware of what myown needs are and my own wants
and and not not in a selfishway, but just a if I say yes to
you in this, am I betrayingmyself?
Is this what God would want forme?
(18:10):
Am I going to be so empty afterI say yes to this that I'm
pouring from an empty cup that Ihave nothing left?
Like that's not what God wantsfor us.
That's not grace.
Um, so that's step three isasking that question.
If I say yes, am I betrayingmyself?
And the fourth part is respondwith truth and grace.
(18:34):
Um so yeah, being kind neverrequires being cruel to
yourself.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a yeah, that's a goodpractice.
Um the pause if uh if that'ssomething you struggle with.
And you know, the truth iswe're secretly talking about the
(18:56):
big word codependency.
And so anybody um who's awarethat they struggle with that,
but if you're not aware, that iswhat we're talking about in
psychology terms.
But I don't care if you name itthat or not, that's not the
point, because it can be scaryto call it uh codependency has
such a you know a negative wrap,but um essentially it's just us
(19:22):
not being aware of our ownneeds and saying yes to things
out of fear and being rescuersand things that um that's not
grace.
Danny Ray (19:33):
So as we wrap up, yes, what's one or two things
that they could take home withthem to maybe put this into
practice in a in a tangible waywith either themselves or with
their spouse of eitheraddressing something?
What you know, I know you deala lot with this because it's a
(19:53):
very common thing in therapythat you're dealing with, but
what are some practical?
I know you've given some, butif there's I've got three
questions.
Kimberly (20:00):
Oh, okay.
I do, I do have this.
Danny Ray (20:02):
So let's see, what do you have?
Kimberly (20:04):
Um, so especially for who I'm gonna call the rescuer,
um, I want you to ask yourselfthese three questions.
Am I doing this out of love orfear?
Okay, right?
Fear that if I'm not quoteunquote nice to this person,
they're gonna think poorly of meand they're gonna hate me and
they're okay.
(20:25):
If I'm thinking along thoselines, I'm not I'm operating out
of fear.
I'm not operating out of love.
Danny Ray (20:31):
And as a whole, we don't want to operate out of
fear.
We want to operate out of God'sgrace, out of his love, out of
his hope, out of his future, outof all the things that he's
designed us to be, not out of umfear.
So okay, absolutely.
Kimberly (20:42):
So second question Am I taking responsibility for
something that isn't mine?
Danny Ray (20:48):
I mean, sounds like the answer's yes.
The way you phrase that.
Kimberly (20:52):
Oh, sorry.
I just think it's you know,these sounds simple, but they're
so good for those of us thatdon't ask this of ourselves,
right?
So am I taking responsibilityfor something that isn't mine?
Is this a burden that I shouldbe carrying?
I should really only be owningthe stuff that's my side of the
street, right?
I it's not my job to own yours.
(21:14):
Can I come alongside you andsupport you and help you with
love and grace and truth?
Absolutely.
Danny Ray (21:19):
Yeah.
Kimberly (21:20):
I'm not called to just, you know, go, oh, see ya,
sorry, you have this problem.
Bye.
Right.
Danny Ray (21:26):
You're a part of the solution as a as a spouse, but
the solution isn't you doingpush-ups for the person.
Kimberly (21:33):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (21:34):
Bring that back.
Kimberly (21:34):
Yeah, you can bring that back, and I so wish you
could, man.
Um, okay, and my last one wouldbe does this act honor both of
us equally?
Right.
If I'm going to deny my ownneeds and wants, like I said
before, uh and pouring from anempty cup and I'm just gonna be
drained, that's gonna causeresentment and it's also gonna
(21:56):
cause dependency.
You're gonna depend on me tocarry the weight, to do all the
things, because that's how weset it up.
And then that's not honoringmyself in that.
That's not honoring who God hasdesigned or what he wants for
me.
So those are my threequestions.
Um, as long as well as thegrounding, the pause.
(22:19):
Um, those are myrecommendations for anyone
struggling with this.
And uh, it's been a reallygreat season of talking about
grace and grace grenades.
We had started with.
Um, so thank you all forlistening this season, and uh,
we will see you next season.
Danny Ray (22:35):
Yeah, I can't wait.
And we are yeah, super thankfulfor everybody out there
listening.
We really do hope that this umhelps you to take steps in the
right direction and create thatmarriage where you do whatever
it takes to create healthy, fun,intimate, great relationships.
All right, that's it for now.
We do whatever it Welcome back to another episode
of We Do Whatever It Takes.
I'm Danny Ray.
I'm a magician and pastor, andthis is my incredible bride.
Kimberly (00:12):
I'm Kimberly, and I am an associate marriage and
family therapist.
Danny Ray (00:17):
Woo-woo.
All right.
So what are we talking abouttoday?
Kimberly (00:20):
Today we're talking about something I see quite
often in uh in the counselingoffice.
And I'm not going to be talkingabout anybody specific.
Just give us names andaddresses.
No, no, no.
But so keeping this vague, andyet this is a common problem.
Uh, we're still talking aboutgrace.
This is probably our wrap-up ongrace this season that we've
(00:44):
been talking about.
Um, but there's there's adifficulty, especially for
people in the church, um, peoplewho are are Christians, Christ
followers, and they want to ummake sure they're extending
grace, but there's a there's aline there where that it often
gets muddled and confusing.
(01:05):
So somebody might say, Um,well, my husband comes home
drunk every night and he sayshe'll change, but he doesn't,
and and this is the same patternover and over, but I'm showing
him grace.
Danny Ray (01:19):
And yeah, so this idea this idea of grace isn't uh
isn't the same as what whatJesus is talking about in the
Bible, what God wants us toextend and give to others is
you're continuing to allow abehavior and um excusing a
behavior instead of havingactual change.
(01:42):
Uh and so this idea of grace,it's tricky because we don't
want to put boundaries on grace.
You know, we want that grace togo as high and deep and as wide
as possible.
And then at the same time, wewant to make sure that we're not
being abused or taken advantageof and and people call it
(02:02):
grace.
Yeah.
And that's um that that's alittle bit of the direction
we're going today.
So, Kimberly, talk to us aboutwhat you would do in that
situation and how you help themto understand who they are and
the value of who they are inthat.
Kimberly (02:17):
Yes, that is key.
That yeah, thank you for sayingthat.
So it's it's when we understandour value, who we are in
Christ, that we can feelconfident in saying, wait a
minute, I'm worth more thanthis.
I shouldn't excuse thisbehavior, this pattern that
(02:38):
somebody is doing over and overand over and say, Oh, well,
sorry.
Danny Ray (02:41):
Um And I love you more than just excusing that
behavior.
Like we we want to see changesin our spouse or in somebody
that's hurting or in somebodythat you know needs um to make
healthy changes, you know,whether that's with somebody
dealing with pornography, with agambling addiction, with
drinking, whatever that thatstruggle is, just to say, oh,
(03:03):
you know, they they said they'resorry.
And you know, but it's ifthere's a consistent, constant
pattern, we we need to to go,okay, what are some different
ways that we could bring aboutchange and not just give in and
just say, well, I'll give themgrace or her grace in this
situation.
Kimberly (03:23):
Yeah, because grace by definition means loving with
truth, right?
Grace plus truth equals love.
We it's not enough to just say,well, because truly that's not
biblical grace if we just excusebehavior.
That's really just excusingbehavior and not allowing
(03:45):
somebody to be responsible forthemselves, their actions.
And in fact, for a lot ofpeople, tendency is actually
more women tend to do this, um,but become rescuers, right?
I can fix him.
Uh, and this goes both ways,but I'd say um statistically
speaking, there are a lot morewomen that struggle with this.
(04:06):
Uh, but it's they believe thatthey can rescue.
And the the problem, thedifference between grace with
love and truth is that uhrescuing means taking
responsibility for someoneelse's growth.
Right?
(04:26):
So does that make sense?
So if uh like I'm getting inthe way of your growth if I keep
on just excusing your behaviorand taking Well, the other thing
is I can't take responsibilityfor you, and you can't take
responsibility for me.
Danny Ray (04:41):
Yeah.
And so the first step of movingforward and having
transformation in them in we'llwe'll just say with the person
that's drinking for for to usethat, is that person has to say,
I'm going to takeresponsibility for my actions.
Kimberly (04:56):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (04:57):
I'm aware that I've hurt you.
I'm aware that I'm asking youto just give me grace without
change.
Kimberly (05:05):
But but why would you even do that?
Why would you want to own itand take responsibility if I
just keep excusing it and goingand believing that I'm giving
you grace?
Yeah.
Right.
That's not actually what graceis or what it looks like.
But but if I'm believing that,oh, as a Christ follower, I just
have to show him grace becausehe makes these mistakes.
No, you in this illustrationare not just making mistakes,
(05:30):
you are not owning, not beingresponsible for what you like
you said.
Danny Ray (05:34):
Yeah.
And it's difficult because ofthe, you know, the the tensions
that could be there and the thelove that you have for that
person.
To put this in a differentrealm of either food or an
exercise, right?
Is I can't um I can't go, youknow what?
I'm gonna eat really well foryou when you eat terribly.
I'm like, oh, I so wish youcould.
Kimberly (05:55):
Oh, please eat better for me.
Danny Ray (05:56):
Or I'm gonna do push-ups for you.
Here we go.
Please, yes, yes.
Now you're gonna get strongerbecause I'm doing the push-ups
for you, right?
Kimberly (06:03):
Oh my gosh, I wish it worked like that.
Danny Ray (06:06):
It doesn't make sense in that area, and it doesn't
make sense in any area, but thatmay be a clearer way to see it.
I like that.
I can't do push-ups for you.
Kimberly (06:15):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's something we have toown.
Danny Ray (06:18):
So that might even be a way to have a conversation
about it is to give a physical,you know, the the food or the um
the exercise illustration um asan example to say, hey, I I
want to, and I've been trying todo this, but I realize I can't
do these things for you.
For you to get healthy, youhave to make the decision.
(06:40):
You have to takeresponsibility.
And I want that, but I can't dothat for you.
Kimberly (06:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to talk for a secondabout grace versus rescuing.
Yeah.
Um, the motivation of rescuingis out of fear, guilt, or
control.
Right?
So we have to pause for aminute and and go, okay, what's
my motivation?
I I believe I'm showing grace,but I'm actually rescuing
(07:07):
because I have this fear that ifI don't, I'm gonna go back to
the illustration of let'spretend you come home drunk
every night, which is not true,but just using that as an as an
illustration.
Sure, you're welcome.
Um so if if I operate out offear, well, it's uh it's better
(07:29):
than me being alone.
So I if I fear that you arejust gonna leave me or fear that
I'm gonna be alone if I don'trescue you, if I don't make
excuses for you, right?
I mean, sometimes it's to thepoint where people are, well,
I'll call in sick for youbecause I'm helping.
I'm but but I'm not.
(07:49):
This is an example of trying torescue, and it's never gonna
help you in the long run, right?
And it's motivated by eitherfear, guilt, or maybe even
something control that I want tohave over the situation.
Danny Ray (08:04):
Another like fear in there is the fear of the the
consequences of like what if heor she loses his job, what if,
and but consequences um are whathelps lead to responsibility
and going like, oh wow, I lostmy job.
Oh wow, I didn't pay my carpayment because I, you know,
(08:25):
I've lost my car.
And when you start to have realconsequences for your actions
and they're not excused, they'renot just oh, let's just give
grace to that and kind oftrivial like trivially.
Yeah, thank you.
Uh that's the word, uhtrivializing grace.
And um that that helps people.
(08:45):
That's kind of this God builtinto our world thing, is there's
natural consequences for ouractions.
But when you begin to removethose by um trying to rescue,
yeah, that affects the outcomeand the the possibility of it
happening in a quicker way,which is the result you want,
(09:08):
but you're cutting it short bytrying to make it easy.
Kimberly (09:14):
Another one difference between grace versus rescuing,
yeah.
Um the your view of yourselfwhen you're operating from true
grace is that you believe thatyou are equal with others, that
you believe that you are who Godsays you are, that you're not
(09:34):
operating about, well, I'm I'mless than, so I must put up with
this behavior.
Danny Ray (09:42):
Um versus So when you realize that you're chosen,
that you're loved, that you'reredeemed, that you're forgiven,
that you're made new, that youare a son or a daughter of the
king of kings, then I canoperate and go, I I just I hate
the word deserve, but I I Goddoesn't want this for me, where
I'm just rescuing somebody andand doesn't want that for for
(10:05):
the person who's coming homedrunk every night either.
Kimberly (10:07):
That's not the what what God wants for them either.
Um so grace as far as what itlooks like in action, yes, is
offering support and truth,right?
So I might not well, so if I'moperating out of God's grace,
yeah, I'm it means I'm gonna sayto you the truth that hey, this
(10:29):
is a problem and this isaffecting me, it's affecting
you.
And what do we want to do aboutit?
Or what are you going to doabout it?
Um, so offering support doesn'tmean just like you're on your
own.
Danny Ray (10:43):
A second there.
And so let's say somebodylistening right now, and
remember to make the connection.
This isn't about somebody beingdrunk or about gambling or
about what is a situation thatyou might be excusing or
rescuing or whatever that is.
If somebody's in that situationright now, what's something
they could um a step they couldtake as a rescuer and go, this
(11:07):
would be a better way to handlethis?
And then on the other side ofthat, um, the person that
they're rescuing from whateverthat situation is, what is
something that they couldencourage them, right, to do and
maybe allow um letting themknow like this is going to be
the the new action that I take.
(11:30):
Yeah.
So because just doing somethingand not allowing the other
person to be aware of it couldalso hinder progress.
Kimberly (11:37):
Okay.
I think I'm with you on this.
So um I can definitely speak tothe person who, well, to both
of those, I guess.
The the person who isstruggling with whatever
addiction or or whateverrepeated behavior pattern that's
not healthy.
And their side of it is um istaking responsibility.
(12:02):
That's that's really their theonly option as far as healthy
relationship goes, you've got toown it and and decide that this
is enough.
And I'm gonna surrender it toGod and I'm going to work on it
and get help for it, and I'mgoing to apologize because I see
how it affects my spouse and myfamily and my life.
Danny Ray (12:23):
And remember, our motto here is we do whatever it
takes, and we want to encourageyou to take that.
Is if hypothetically I wasthat, you know, Kim threw me
under this bus if you're thedrunk in this situation.
If I was a drunk and she cameto me and said, I really I'm not
going to excuse this behavioranymore.
You were consistently cominghome drunk.
(12:44):
That's unacceptable.
And I went, I need to dowhatever it takes, right?
Yeah.
I want to do whatever it takes.
If that means a financialdecision we need to make that is
difficult, if it means I needto maybe step away from um
certain people or certainsituations, whatever that is, we
(13:05):
we have that mentality of wewant to do whatever it takes,
regardless of the cost, tocreate a great and healthy
marriage.
Kimberly (13:11):
Oh, I love that so much.
Um, and I think uh what makesthis easy to talk about is that
that by God's grace is somethingwe put into practice all the
time, that we are gonna dowhatever it takes.
And that's a decision we madefrom the beginning.
Danny Ray (13:28):
And doesn't mean that there aren't rough times, there
certainly are, but in our Andjust uh a reminder from the
beginning for us was um I had aporn addiction and you know, our
first year of marriage, I endedup in an adult um bookshop.
And when I walked out of thereand just felt all the shame, and
I we were just married, and Ithought, when we get married,
(13:49):
all these addictions will goaway.
Um lo and behold, they did not.
And then I had to make thedecision do I do I just keep
that secret and she doesn'tknow, and I just continue to in
that behavior, or do I do thehard thing of going to her hat
in hand, humbly, shame like Iwas full of shame.
(14:09):
It felt disgusting and uh Ifelt so weak as a man, but going
to her and just going, like, II need help in this area.
And so she came alongside andwe worked together and went went
to counseling and figured outwhat are some solutions to move
forward.
So it's not like, oh, we wejust have everything together.
(14:30):
We had to figure these thingsout and have long, difficult
conversations on what it lookslike to move forward.
Kimberly (14:37):
Can I tell you something funny?
Danny Ray (14:39):
Oh no.
Kimberly (14:40):
I know these are hard things to share, especially when
we're doing this publicly, tosay, hey, that's that's part of
our story.
Um, but it's hot.
Danny Ray (14:52):
Get out of here.
Kimberly (14:54):
No, it's so I know.
I this I think the the womenout there know what I'm talking
about, but maybe the men too.
There's something very sexyabout the honesty of that, and
that it's something that youthat we worked through and you
buried and is um we're on theother side of.
And no, stop undressing yourshirt.
(15:16):
Keep your shirt on.
This is not that kind ofpodcast, but um, anyway, we
digress.
You did ask me about thank youfor sharing that.
I do, I sorry, I do want to saythat.
Um that's not easy, but Iappreciate that.
Um, you asked me a minute agoabout what can the person who
(15:39):
tends to rescue, what can theylearn?
What can they do differently?
And this is I'm gonna call it agrounding practice.
It's called the the pause.
Like there's even a name forit.
Danny Ray (15:52):
For a moment, for those listeners who've never
heard of like a groundingpractice, can you explain what
that is to begin with?
Kimberly (15:58):
And then a specific grounding technique really has
to do with um keeping your yourlimbic system online, meaning
that you're not going to explodeand get all crazy uh out of
like anger and and operate fromthe the bigger emotions, but
you're gonna breathe and respondin a healthy way.
Danny Ray (16:18):
Okay, so this is one of those practices?
Kimberly (16:20):
Yeah.
This is um essentially pausingbefore responding.
I mean, this is not rocketscience, but uh I've even had
clients this week be like, ohwow, this is life-changing to
learn to pause.
Actually, not just this week,to be honest.
Um, and this is something II've had to work on.
So, anyway, so when you feelpressure to say yes, or your
(16:41):
pattern is just always sayingyes because you're fearful if I
say no, they won't like me, orif I say no, they'll leave me.
Um so if you feel when you feelpressure to say yes, step one
being breathe.
And it really doesn't matter,but just to give you an example,
you could say inhale for four,exhale for six.
(17:04):
But I don't care how you do it,to be honest, just take some
deep breaths.
And number two, pause beforeresponding because we're taking
some breath and we're pausingand ask yourself if I say yes,
am I betraying myself?
Right?
So we a lot of us learned in inchildhood that our needs don't
(17:27):
matter.
Why even look at our needsbecause they're not gonna get
met, or they um we're just sounaware of our own needs because
it was crucial to pleasesomebody, or it was crucial to
uh take care of a parent, maybeis is a common one.
So um so they so we learn notto even be aware of our own
(17:50):
needs.
And so this is a retraining andor a training really for the
first time for a lot of us thatwe go, okay, I'm gonna pause and
I'm gonna be aware of what myown needs are and my own wants
and and not not in a selfishway, but just a if I say yes to
you in this, am I betrayingmyself?
Is this what God would want forme?
(18:10):
Am I going to be so empty afterI say yes to this that I'm
pouring from an empty cup that Ihave nothing left?
Like that's not what God wantsfor us.
That's not grace.
Um, so that's step three isasking that question.
If I say yes, am I betrayingmyself?
And the fourth part is respondwith truth and grace.
(18:34):
Um so yeah, being kind neverrequires being cruel to
yourself.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a yeah, that's a goodpractice.
Um the pause if uh if that'ssomething you struggle with.
And you know, the truth iswe're secretly talking about the
(18:56):
big word codependency.
And so anybody um who's awarethat they struggle with that,
but if you're not aware, that iswhat we're talking about in
psychology terms.
But I don't care if you name itthat or not, that's not the
point, because it can be scaryto call it uh codependency has
such a you know a negative wrap,but um essentially it's just us
(19:22):
not being aware of our ownneeds and saying yes to things
out of fear and being rescuersand things that um that's not
grace.
Danny Ray (19:33):
So as we wrap up, yes, what's one or two things
that they could take home withthem to maybe put this into
practice in a in a tangible waywith either themselves or with
their spouse of eitheraddressing something?
What you know, I know you deala lot with this because it's a
(19:53):
very common thing in therapythat you're dealing with, but
what are some practical?
I know you've given some, butif there's I've got three
questions.
Kimberly (20:00):
Oh, okay.
I do, I do have this.
Danny Ray (20:02):
So let's see, what do you have?
Kimberly (20:04):
Um, so especially for who I'm gonna call the rescuer,
um, I want you to ask yourselfthese three questions.
Am I doing this out of love orfear?
Okay, right?
Fear that if I'm not quoteunquote nice to this person,
they're gonna think poorly of meand they're gonna hate me and
they're okay.
(20:25):
If I'm thinking along thoselines, I'm not I'm operating out
of fear.
I'm not operating out of love.
Danny Ray (20:31):
And as a whole, we don't want to operate out of
fear.
We want to operate out of God'sgrace, out of his love, out of
his hope, out of his future, outof all the things that he's
designed us to be, not out of umfear.
So okay, absolutely.
Kimberly (20:42):
So second question Am I taking responsibility for
something that isn't mine?
Danny Ray (20:48):
I mean, sounds like the answer's yes.
The way you phrase that.
Kimberly (20:52):
Oh, sorry.
I just think it's you know,these sounds simple, but they're
so good for those of us thatdon't ask this of ourselves,
right?
So am I taking responsibilityfor something that isn't mine?
Is this a burden that I shouldbe carrying?
I should really only be owningthe stuff that's my side of the
street, right?
I it's not my job to own yours.
(21:14):
Can I come alongside you andsupport you and help you with
love and grace and truth?
Absolutely.
Danny Ray (21:19):
Yeah.
Kimberly (21:20):
I'm not called to just, you know, go, oh, see ya,
sorry, you have this problem.
Bye.
Right.
Danny Ray (21:26):
You're a part of the solution as a as a spouse, but
the solution isn't you doingpush-ups for the person.
Kimberly (21:33):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (21:34):
Bring that back.
Kimberly (21:34):
Yeah, you can bring that back, and I so wish you
could, man.
Um, okay, and my last one wouldbe does this act honor both of
us equally?
Right.
If I'm going to deny my ownneeds and wants, like I said
before, uh and pouring from anempty cup and I'm just gonna be
drained, that's gonna causeresentment and it's also gonna
(21:56):
cause dependency.
You're gonna depend on me tocarry the weight, to do all the
things, because that's how weset it up.
And then that's not honoringmyself in that.
That's not honoring who God hasdesigned or what he wants for
me.
So those are my threequestions.
Um, as long as well as thegrounding, the pause.
(22:19):
Um, those are myrecommendations for anyone
struggling with this.
And uh, it's been a reallygreat season of talking about
grace and grace grenades.
We had started with.
Um, so thank you all forlistening this season, and uh,
we will see you next season.
Danny Ray (22:35):
Yeah, I can't wait.
And we are yeah, super thankfulfor everybody out there
listening.
We really do hope that this umhelps you to take steps in the
right direction and create thatmarriage where you do whatever
it takes to create healthy, fun,intimate, great relationships.
All right, that's it for now.
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