September 20, 2023 • 37 mins
Are you yearning for a deeper connection with your partner? Craving a relationship built on authentic trust, understanding, and commitment? Join us on a transformative journey as we dive into the heart of genuine relationships. We shed light on the art of active listening, the power of empathy, and the significance of being fully present. Let's unpack the role of 'eyeball time' - complete focus on your partner, a silent plea for understanding and connection.
We don't stop there. Together, we will crack open the chest of commitment, delving into its profound impact on trust. We believe commitment isn't just a whispered vow, but an action, a testament to your love and devotion. Let's navigate the waters of forgiveness, understanding its healing power, and the stark difference between sweeping issues under the carpet and truly digesting them. We delve into the mechanics of making amends, a crucial element in fostering an environment where trust can flourish.
Finally, we touch on the sensitive topic of transparency. From the small acts like sharing passwords to the larger, more profound moments of vulnerability - revealing our deepest fears and insecurities. It takes courage to bare our souls to another, but this vulnerability is the key to building trust. We wrap up by emphasizing the importance of creating a safe, non-judgmental space for your partner. Listen in, learn, and apply these principles to your relationships. Rediscover the joy of a relationship built on solid trust, commitment, and love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Ray (00:00):
Today we are looking at part two of building trust in
our marriages.
Kimberly (00:05):
Yes, that's kind of important.
So last time, if you tuned in,you know that there's three
people that we looked at theirresearch Dr Covey, david
Horsinger and John Gottman andbasically all three of these
people say these are 10principles that are essential
for building trust in yourmarriage.
So if you tuned in, you knowprinciple one is trust is
(00:28):
essential.
Principle two honesty andintegrity.
Principle three open and honestcommunication.
Principle four consistency.
Principle five accountability.
Danny Ray (00:39):
And today, Today we'll start with principle six
and we're talking aboutlistening and empathy, having
empathy.
So listening, are you listening, babe?
Kimberly (00:51):
I don't hear a word you're saying.
Danny Ray (00:53):
Oh, there's honesty.
So listening when we're talking, especially with our spouse,
but really gosh if it's at workwith anybody or kids.
Truly, I think in our cultureat least, more often than not
we're listening to respond.
We're thinking wait, wait, wait.
Has our mouth stopped moving?
(01:14):
They're stopped.
Oh, they stopped moving.
I can talk now.
No, I can talk, right, right.
Kimberly (01:18):
The other thing, though, when it comes to
listening, is the distractionsis even if there's the intent to
listen, the intent tounderstand the other person, we
are so like ding, what's that?
Oh, buzz, you know our phone orour watch, you know, and it's,
I'm listening.
I'm listening, but I'm going tolook at my watch really quickly
(01:40):
, just to check.
Okay, everything.
Oh, no, wait, hold on.
And so I feel like we're.
Danny Ray (01:45):
But you have a live person right in front of you.
Kimberly (01:48):
That's you know wanting your attention.
Danny Ray (01:50):
No, that's really, I don't know, confession time.
So I will say I do pretty wellat not letting the ding of my
phone or my watch Most of thetime.
I'm sure not all the time.
I don't want to be Pavlov's dog.
I don't want to be somebodythat just responds to a ding and
(02:11):
has to look.
Kimberly (02:12):
However, this sounds like a humble brag.
Danny Ray (02:15):
I don't know if this sounds like a confession.
Kimberly (02:17):
Okay, here comes the confession part.
Danny Ray (02:20):
I do pretty well at that in general, but it's not a
brag.
Kimberly (02:27):
But I do struggle with .
Okay, stop, but I choose not todo this.
Danny Ray (02:32):
Okay, this is my confession, Do you?
Kimberly (02:34):
want to hear it or not .
I want to hear it.
Give it to me.
Danny Ray (02:36):
So my confession would be I have a harder time
focusing, especially in a morepublic place, so a restaurant.
Oh wow Right.
Kimberly (02:46):
Yeah, you were terrible.
Danny Ray (02:48):
I mean you used to be Used to be terrible.
Come on, I've worked on it.
It's still a struggle.
Kimberly (02:53):
You've definitely worked on it, but you could tell
me what's going on on everytable in any given restaurant
and anytime.
If waiters are upset with thestaff, you're like oh, what's
happening with the waiters?
Oh, looks like the chef's upset.
I'm like what is happening?
Where are we?
Danny Ray (03:08):
I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm sure some of our listenerscan can relate to that.
Kimberly (03:15):
I'm sure you have a gift for it, yeah.
Danny Ray (03:18):
Well, we found it to be more of an annoyance than a
gift.
So actually that happened kindof early on in our relationship
and the other confession in thatis especially restaurants
started putting TVs in a longtime ago, Maybe when we started
dating.
That was probably around thetransition time somewhere in the
(03:38):
90s.
Kimberly (03:39):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (03:41):
And TVs in restaurants, and for me and I
know I'm not alone and I wouldsay statistically it's men, but
I am in this category too where,if there's a TV on, it is
difficult for me to not look atit, you're watching it.
Kimberly (03:55):
You're like our son Brian.
Yeah, since day one.
Danny Ray (03:58):
Yeah, if there's a TV on and he's frozen paralyzed in
front of it, I think I'm alittle less than that, but
there's just something that justyeah, it's very distracting,
and so, for me, I've made aconscious effort when I can in a
restaurant, when we get seated,I'm sitting with my back
towards the TV, my back towardsanything that could potentially
(04:20):
be distracting, so it usuallymeans my back towards the door,
which I just know is cringy forsome of our safety people out
there because they're alwayslike, nope, I am watching the
door and I'm aware.
Kimberly (04:33):
So I need to be distraction free as best as I
can, and that's on me to do andI think that's intentional on
both sides, and I definitelyfall under the category of my
watch dings.
My phone dings and I definitelywant to and as we were talking,
I'm going to turn off my phoneand my watch and make sure that.
I'm focused, putting it on donot disturb now.
(04:54):
Good job, so that I could bemore focused with you right now
as we had this conversation.
So listening and empathy,though when it when it comes to
that, you know it's easy to getdistracted.
But if we're, if we arelistening, what are some of the
second way?
Right?
Danny Ray (05:09):
So we're listening, though not just to respond.
We're listening forunderstanding, and there's a big
difference right.
So if we say hey, and actuallyyou and I use the terms I need
your eyeballs, right.
And that really eyeballs is afunny word, it is a funny word,
I don't know why, but so for usthat's a cue that, hey, I really
need to be distracted and Ireally need to talk to you, and
(05:31):
it's not just on the fly as I'mrunning out the door or like I
need your attention.
I need to literally look atyour eyeballs and and see your
face and see your reaction, seethat you're really listening to
me and not distracted.
So, and that goes both ways.
Kimberly (05:46):
We both call the the eyeballs.
The eyeball time is, I think,important and it really helps
with listening.
So you're not, you know, doingtwo things at once, which we
think we can do well, butsometimes we get sucked into.
Danny Ray (05:57):
Nobody can do it well .
The research is there.
Sorry, all of you think you canmultitask baloney.
That's a topic for another day.
Kimberly (06:10):
Multitasking, but listening effectively.
Another strategy and this issomething that we've talked
about but we don't use often isthis is important to me, that
phrase for us.
When one of us says, hey, thisis important to me, it's a drop
everything, yes, so basically100% of our attention is on the
other person, and we try to dothat just by saying eyeball time
(06:34):
.
But if it's kind of next level,the phrase we use is this is
important to me.
And that is something to let theother person know, like, hey, I
, I really need you to payattention and understand.
Danny Ray (06:47):
This is a big deal.
Kimberly (06:48):
Yeah, this is a big deal to me yeah, yeah.
Danny Ray (06:52):
Now, obviously the catch with that is you can't be
using it every day or everyminute of saying you know, this
is important to me, this isimportant to me.
Well then, it's going to loseall meaning.
So it is something used verysparingly, at least in our
marriage.
Right that we?
Kimberly (07:06):
Right, and that might not be the right phrase for you.
It might be, but there might bea phrase that you could talk
about as a couple that whensomething is really serious and
you really want somebody'sattention and you really feel
like they haven't understood youbefore, you can say fill in the
blank for us it's, this isimportant to me and that's just
(07:29):
for us, kind of the highestlevel of alert for us in our
marriage.
Danny Ray (07:32):
I would say yeah, yeah.
Kimberly (07:35):
A couple of times a year.
You know one of us might usethat.
Danny Ray (07:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, high alert is a good wayto put that out like that.
Kimberly (07:44):
So listening?
What about with the empathyside of it?
Can you talk about that for amoment?
Danny Ray (07:48):
Yeah, so it's something we really work on in
therapy, so I won't go too farinto it.
But essentially, If you say,hey, it really bothered me when
I don't know you didn't do thisor that you said you would, and
if I'm listening to respond,then I'm listening defensively,
(08:12):
right, I'm going oh I rememberwhen you know, no, I didn't do
that, or I said I would do it,but all these 10 things happened
and I couldn't do it.
That's just defensiveness,that's just coming up with, you
know, responding to, but insteadthe empathy piece comes in when
I actually stop.
I'm not defensive.
I listen to you and if you canattach an emotion to it and say
(08:35):
it made me feel helpless whenthis happened, or it made me
feel trapped when this happened,or like actually big, not even
just big, but just if you canattach an emotion I haven't done
(08:57):
that one an emotion word to it,that ideally brings empathy and
understanding.
And so if you're the one that'sbrought the concern up and
you've said, hey, I, it hurt myfeelings when this and it made
me feel this way, if I'm doingmy job and being an active
(09:19):
listener, then I can actuallybecome more empathetic by asking
more questions forunderstanding, right?
So if I ask I oh no, I can'teven think of a question If I
ask you, can you explain thatmore to me how that made you
feel that?
way Because it's confusing to me, or, but we want to have
(09:42):
compassion and because that'swhat I want ideally, when, when
roles are reversed right, I wantyou to understand.
Kimberly (09:49):
Yeah, throw something out, because let's say I am
listening to you and because Icould actively listen to you in
downplay.
What you're saying, so the same.
You're saying so each part isvalidating it.
Danny Ray (10:04):
Yes, that's a really good point.
So, even though and this iswhere I get stuck sometimes is
the intent.
So, if you bring up a concern,you say I, you know it hurt my
feelings when and I'm listening,and what did you just say with
that?
Kimberly (10:22):
The downplay with the other person, so you, you are
listening you do understand whatthey're saying, but if I say,
oh, it's not a big deal, orright?
Danny Ray (10:32):
So if I downplay what you've just, yeah, those fears
that you've brought to me, orthose concerns, I'm minimizing
it and I'm telling you that itdidn't matter.
And you're saying, no, it didmatter to me, and here's why.
So you're right, we have tovalidate it, and that means that
, even if I don't think I wouldhave felt the same way about the
same exact thing.
Kimberly (10:52):
That's the key right there.
Danny Ray (10:53):
Right, because it's not about how that would have
made me feel.
It's you being honest andtelling me how you felt about
the situation or the concern.
Kimberly (11:03):
So I think the key right there is we have to be
able to put ourself in the otherperson's position and not go
like what's the big deal?
Like I would have respondedthis way.
Why wouldn't you just do?
That Is the other person, youknow your spouse or you know
your whoever you're in arelationship with might not have
had the same fortitude or thesame ideas that you had in.
(11:27):
Those fears are real, and ortheir anxiousness, or whatever
it is.
So just downplaying it andsaying, hey, here's what I would
have done, isn't really gettinginto that other person's shoes
and trying to understand, whichhelps you to be empathetic in
that situation.
Danny Ray (11:43):
Right, right, for sure, yeah, and there's lots
more we could say on that.
Kimberly (11:46):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (11:46):
And, but for the purposes of today.
We want to listen and listeningto, not to respond, but to be
an active listener and askquestions about you know why it
felt that way to them and,ideally, bringing empathy.
Kimberly (12:05):
Yeah, responding in a healthy way.
Yeah, listening in an activeway.
Danny Ray (12:10):
That's going to build trust.
That's going to build trust,which is what we're talking
about, bottom line.
Kimberly (12:14):
Yeah, you're going to come away from that conversation
.
The other person's going tofeel supported.
You've supported them andthat's a step in the right
direction for building trust.
Danny Ray (12:24):
Right, because we feel safe Right.
So, if I can bring that concernto you, I felt safe and that
safety is building that trustfor sure.
Kimberly (12:34):
All right, so let's look at principle seven
commitment there's a word.
Some people don't want to hear,that's true.
I'm not committing to that, Infact.
Danny Ray (12:46):
I feel like our culture.
Kimberly (12:48):
It's almost like it's an epidemic these days.
It's nobody wants to commitahead of time.
They, you know.
If they find anything that'sslightly possibly better, we're
going to go do that you know,and when it comes to our
relationships, it's hard toReally commit to the other
person mind, body, soul to bepresent in that relationship.
(13:08):
And so, but this commitment isessential, I'll give you you
have a good yeah, like analogyor yeah this is from our son.
He talked to us about a class hewas taking it by Ola University
and you know, the prof said ifI was to say I'm going to touch
(13:29):
this wall, have I committed totouching that wall?
No no, what if I, you know,come up with a whole talk and a
presentation about touching thatwall and how Important it is to
touch that wall?
Have I touched that wall?
No, if I bring my hand reallyclose to that wall, have I
touched that wall?
No but I'm I'm close, I have theintent I want to.
(13:52):
I've told others.
I'm going to have I committedyet not yet, not yet and so the
the prof went on and on and then, like 10 minutes later, he
finally like slams his hand downon the wall on the class, like
now I've committed inCommitments, commitment.
(14:12):
It is touching that wall, it'snot talking about it.
And this is, I think, thedilemma we get into.
We get into an argument withour, our spouse and we, we work
things out and we say, okay, I'm, I'm never going to do that
again, or I'll, I'm going towork on that.
But the commitment takes time,energy and Watching you do that
(14:37):
consistently, not just talkingabout hey, I'm never, I'll just
take name-calling, like for us.
That's a boundary we don't enterinto in our relationship.
We could be upset with oneanother, but we, we don't throw
you know names out.
Danny Ray (14:54):
Yeah, no name calling no name calling.
Kimberly (14:57):
So that's a commitment We've made.
But if I broke that commitment,and I start calling you.
You're such a I, you know allthat stuff right, wouldn't go
well for you.
Danny Ray (15:11):
Just for the record, you're gonna throw something.
What you got, what you got.
No, that's another rule.
We don't throw things.
Kimberly (15:17):
I learned that the hard way.
I You're one.
That's a long time ago I hadsomething flat that can be
another podcast.
Sorry, but that's how, for us,some of those boundaries took
place as we made some mistakesand we went.
Okay, we don't want to handlethings like that again.
What can we do?
(15:38):
We make commitments not to dothose things again.
But if we slip up and we do them, we need to readdress it,
figure out how we could recommitto not doing that.
But that takes time inConsistency, seeing that I'm
really going to make thiscommitment to you for sure, and
not just words, not just talkingabout it, but actually touching
(16:00):
the wall.
Danny Ray (16:01):
Oh, love it Awesome.
So principle eight we'retalking forgiveness and such a
small one.
Yeah, so easy.
You guys got this, we got thisright, everybody's got this.
Kimberly (16:15):
Yeah, forgiveness, we've never had to forgive each
other.
Oh my gosh.
Danny Ray (16:20):
Sometimes minute by minute.
Probably for me, I'm sure notfor you.
Kimberly (16:27):
All the time.
I need your forgiveness and Iasked for it and that's true,
yeah, and, and you're prettygood at this, for sure.
Danny Ray (16:35):
But so here, when we're talking forgiveness, we're
also talking conflictresolution.
And Because how do you, oncewe've had an argument or a Break
in the trust, how do we resolveit?
How do we make amends?
How do you, you know, like,Repair the rupture, because
(16:56):
there's now this distrust thatthat's happened.
Kimberly (16:59):
So for a minute let's talk about what forgiveness is,
not To help understand whatforgiveness.
Danny Ray (17:06):
Okay, so to forgive, we don't have to forget that's.
That's one of them, right?
Kimberly (17:11):
Yeah, there's a common misconception that, oh, I have
to forget about a wrong that'sdone to me, and sometimes we
don't have the capacity and ifwe Believe that, we have to
forget it and then we'rethinking about it.
You know that that could befrustrating for us yeah and the
other person.
But it's not and that's not thegoal is to forget about it,
that that may or may not happen.
Danny Ray (17:32):
Some of us, and especially when you're talking I
, I'm gonna go there first.
I worst-case scenario, whenyou're talking assault or like
physical abuse or things likethat, that You're not gonna
forget that and you're notcalled to like that's.
That's not the goal.
So let's go back to forgiveness.
What other things are yousaying that forgiveness is not?
Kimberly (17:51):
I don't think for when I think about, for what
forgiveness is not?
It's not Something I'm tryingto put like words to this,
something that we can.
Danny Ray (18:02):
That's okay.
Words would be good.
Sorry, I don't.
It'll come back to me on.
Kimberly (18:07):
I had an idea on what forgiveness is not, but it's not
coming to me.
Danny Ray (18:11):
I think I cut you off with it.
Kimberly (18:12):
No, that's fine, I'll come back to that, but it's not
just sweeping it under the rugright and saying like I'm not
going to think about thatanymore.
And then it comes up later andnow it's like double the portion
because you really haven'tworked it through, Because you
just dismissed it, not forgaveit.
So I think that's important.
(18:33):
I'm sure there's other ones Ihad in my head a moment ago.
Danny Ray (18:36):
That's okay, yeah, so let's keep going with what
forgiveness is?
Yeah, and when you don'tforgive is kind of what you were
saying now.
If you sweep it under the rug,that's not going to be
beneficial.
I usually use the illustrationof we all kind of carry around a
backpack and imaginary backpack, and there are a lot of people
(19:00):
who would rather avoid anyconflict because of whatever
happened in their childhood.
Kimberly (19:05):
how they grew up.
Danny Ray (19:06):
Maybe conflict wasn't talked about or worked out, and
so they're used to the sweepingit under the rug, and so they
have imaginary rocks that theyput in the backpack along the
way.
They pick up the rock, theyturn it over and they go oh that
was something that he did orshe did and it really made me
mad, but I'm not going to bringit up.
And they think that they'vedismissed it.
(19:26):
They think that they, you knowlike, oh well, I'm over it.
Kimberly (19:29):
But they're putting it in the backpack, they're
putting it in the backpack.
Danny Ray (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Kimberly (19:33):
So it begins to weigh them down and begins to come
back up Until they erupt one day.
Danny Ray (19:39):
And it's just like because everything that they've
been carrying around in thatbackpack and they start hurling
these imaginary rocks at theperson that they're upset with,
right.
So sweeping it under the rugdoesn't work, it's not
forgiveness, it doesn't.
It's only going to have apotential rupture or, yeah, the
(20:02):
person's going to erupt really.
Kimberly (20:05):
When we look at this from like a Christian
perspective, I think it isessential to understand what God
has done for us.
Danny Ray (20:12):
When we look at.
Kimberly (20:12):
Colossians 313, it says bear with each other.
Thankfully, you know shedoesn't need to bear with me,
I'll please Right.
We have to bear with each other.
And then it says and forgiveone another.
And how are we supposed toforgive?
Forgive one another.
If any of you has agreementsagainst someone, forgive, as the
(20:34):
Lord forgave you.
So when we look at how God hasforgiven us, god sent his son to
die in our place like crucifiedLike that's crazy.
He lived a perfect life.
You know all these things, whereit's just like that's huge that
he would go to that extent tosay I want to forgive you and
(20:58):
when it comes to ourrelationship, I want to learn to
forgive.
Like that, where there's noamount of sacrifice, no amount
of humility that I won't putmyself into to forgive, instead
of it being from a position of.
I deserve this Because, from aposition of, I want what's best
for our relationship and I'mwilling to sacrifice, even if
(21:21):
I'm right.
I think this is one of theother misconceptions.
Danny Ray (21:25):
There we go yeah.
Kimberly (21:27):
Forgiveness is that we have this idea that Jesus, you
know, came to prove us right,you know, and it's not that.
It's not about being right in arelationship If I win an
argument and you lose we bothlose.
Danny Ray (21:42):
You lose yeah.
Kimberly (21:44):
We're in that.
It's a team sport.
We're on the same team, and soif I come out on top and you
come out on the bottom, or viceversa, that's not the goal of an
argument.
And so let's talk aboutconflict resolution and how we
could come to back to being onthe same page after there's been
(22:04):
, as you put, a terror did youput a terror in the relationship
, yeah, yeah, yeah, rupture,yeah.
Danny Ray (22:11):
So I always have to go back to when we talk conflict
resolution.
I always have to go back to thedays where I was actually.
We were both preschool teachersfor a little while in the very
beginning of our marriage, andwe were living out in Colorado
and teaching little ones and itreally bothered me, and this is
(22:34):
not just the to do with theschool that we were at.
This is every campus, every inour culture, at least in the
United States, where little kidsrun up to teacher or yard duty
on the playground and they sayteacher, he hit me or teacher,
he took my ball, she took myball, and the teacher typically,
(22:55):
or yard duty, will typicallysay say sorry and I'm sorry, and
the kids run off and all issupposed to be well.
Well, that is not conflictresolution.
Kimberly (23:07):
Right, those are just words.
You know.
Saying sorry doesn't repair arelationship.
Danny Ray (23:12):
Yes, that's a good way to put it.
Kimberly (23:14):
It's the intent behind that and obviously a kid on the
playground.
Danny Ray (23:16):
I'm sorry, you know like isn't has no meaning behind
it.
They just want to say it, toget on with life and get the
ball back, and that's it so, andthey're doing it out of
obligation.
Kimberly (23:27):
Same when you look at like a marriage relationship,
when you, when you were sayingsorry because you got caught,
sorry because you're not goingto do it again or that you've
committed a offense, it's like,oh so understanding why, why
we're saying those words andwhat those words mean, and
because it can hold a lot ofvalue, I know and our
(23:49):
relationship.
For you, sorry, has a lot moremeaning than it does for me.
And so when I say that I try to, you know, do that with the,
the intent, and not just go like, hey, babe, sorry, you know,
and kind of do it but really tryto understand what.
What is the way that I hurt youand how can I make that right?
Danny Ray (24:09):
Which is that's the big piece right there that.
So when I was talking aboutthose, the preschoolers and on
the playground, and I honestly Ijust started praying about it
and asking God like, how do wechange this?
This does not make sense to meto just tell the kids say sorry
and run off and all is supposedto be well.
And so God gave me the words toask have the children ask each
(24:35):
other?
So after they've said, you know, okay, I'm sorry for doing this
, the next thing is what can Ido to make you feel better?
And that's a huge part for us,that for our marriage right and
hopefully for, I think, othersthat we've tried to teach that
(24:56):
to along the way.
Hopefully that's been helpfulbecause that's the repair part.
So trust has been broken and tobuild it back up, we have to
repair it right.
And so we ask each other and itis humbling, I'm not going to
lie.
For me that's really sometimeseasier than other times.
Sometimes it's really difficultto say to you I'm sorry, but I
(25:19):
did that and what can I do tomake you feel better.
Kimberly (25:23):
And I guess you could take me up to the bedroom right
now.
Danny Ray (25:25):
Wow, wow, that is probably the answer you would
love to give me.
Most of the time I was going togive examples of what that
actually means, but okay, thatis one option, I guess for our
couple.
Kimberly (25:38):
I do not use that option.
Danny Ray (25:39):
No, no, no, you don't usually say that, but yeah,
yeah yeah, but it's not thatit's not an option, as long as
everybody's consenting to that.
So some of the let's go back tothe kids on a playground you
know you might or your own kids.
As a parent, you might say Iwant a high five, I want a hug,
please don't do it again, isanother option.
(26:00):
You can say and those are truein our marriage, I think a high
five for you and I might be alittle awkward, but so- that one
that's probably not going tomake me feel better or you, but
things that we do say you know,what can I do to make you feel
better?
And the answer might be I need.
I need a few minutes to myselfand then I just need to process
(26:24):
it kind of get over it and moveon.
So sometimes it's a few minutesalone.
It might be a hug, it might behey, can we just sit down and
watch something funny on ourphones for a minute, because we
need to shift gears and kind ofget out of this.
Yeah, jar in the system andright, right and we can go into
(26:45):
that another time.
We've addressed that before.
But yeah, so conflictresolution it's not just yelling
sorry and running away, even inour marriages.
Kimberly (26:54):
All right, let's look at principle nine, which is
emotional connection, and sopicture, you know, a couple
having like a heart to heartconversation about their dreams
and their fears.
You know they're sharing deepemotions and in doing that it
creates this emotionalconnection.
(27:15):
Yes, and I think, in terms ofbuilding trust, it's not just
you know the day to day stuff,but it's trying to create a
future for us together.
We've talked about you know themission statements that we've
created as a marriage togetheror you know different dreams,
whether it's a business dream orwe went out for Taco Tuesday
(27:39):
yesterday.
Yes, we did, and you know, wefound somebody that you know
just opened up a restaurant.
They're four months in, butthey, you know, they're living
their dream.
Danny Ray (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, who's all excited?
Kimberly (27:51):
Yeah, that comes by having those conversations and
saying, hey, I want to beconnected to your dreams, your
fears your hopes.
And I know for us, when we lookat the new year, january, we
don't just look at oh, let'screate.
What's the January first thing?
Danny Ray (28:12):
The resolution yeah, the new year's resolutions.
Kimberly (28:16):
Those are what they are.
Danny Ray (28:17):
Right.
Kimberly (28:18):
But for the last 25 years I've had goal setting in
like every area of my life.
You know from physical,emotional books I want to read.
It's like intellectual thefamily stuff, work stuff, you
know.
So I have all these differentareas where I go, okay, let's
create goals, but we've donethat as a family, we've done
(28:39):
that as a couple.
And that helps us to connect ina different way, to go like hey,
I want to be a part of yourdreams.
What are you afraid of thisyear?
I know for you it's a huge deal, the last three years of taking
on getting your master'sprogram and getting your hours
as a counselor and getting a jobas a counselor Like all these
(29:00):
things have been huge in thelast three years of developing
that new side of you and takingthat step of faith and really
like just doing it, like that'scrazy and I'm glad during you
know that season.
There's that emotionalconnection that you and I were.
You know that bond, and itwasn't an easy season.
Danny Ray (29:23):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have to be more intentional
about making that emotionalbond with each other right In
the day to day stuff.
For sure, I think I would say,as you're the dreamer in the
relationship there tends to be,and you're the dream crusher.
Yeah, I'm not going to lie,it's a good balance.
Kimberly (29:42):
It is a good balance and it was out of the off and la
la land all the time.
Danny Ray (29:46):
Oh my goodness, that's for sure.
So, and I find that mostrelationships seem to have that
right where one person is a bitmore of the dreamer than the
other, and so it comes a littlebit more naturally for the
dreamer to maybe ask thosequestions.
But if you're the dreamer, youknow, if we have dreamers out
(30:08):
there who aren't doing this, Idefinitely recommend that.
You know people ask each otherwhat do you, what are you
looking forward to?
It could be this week, it couldbe.
You know, what are you lookingforward to next year?
Those, if you create thoseemotional bonds, you know we're
dreaming together and it alsoscares me sometimes.
Kimberly (30:29):
But your dream if you are in a in a dreamer, dream
crusher world.
One of the things that we'vedefinitely learned is when I
bring a big idea like I've beenin a project for the last year
of developing a, an immersivemagic show that we're doing a
residency for the first time in20 years of doing this is a full
(30:52):
time Ministry business magicshow yeah, do, but doing it
local right and it was going tocost and it has cost, thank you.
But when I came to you with thatin this is my recommendation is
when you, when you come to thedream crusher, try to explain to
(31:13):
them like this isn't somethingI'm spending money on tonight.
This isn't something.
Yeah, right now this is an ideaI want to talk to you about.
The idea in the idea might bebig, but I'm not talking about
doing this tonight or tomorrow.
But just trying to have aconversation with you to let you
know what I'm thinking aboutdreaming, because early on, when
(31:34):
I come to you with an idea, allyou could see are like dollar
signs and you're like I need toshut this guy down.
Danny Ray (31:41):
Yeah, please stop, please stop the stream.
This can't be.
Yeah, this can't be real.
So, yes, how you approach eachother, how we approach each
other, definitely makes a bigdifference.
It's a.
It's a gentle startup.
Kimberly (31:54):
It's a yeah you preface it well each other so
that we know how to build thatemotional connection exactly
which builds trust.
Yes, so the going on aprincipal 10, the last one,
which is transparency andintegrity.
So transparency, I think, isone of those essential things
(32:15):
that we could easily makemistakes of hiding from our our
spouse and I'll say as a as afollower of Christ right, that
the very first thing thathappens in the garden Eden Right
is Adam and Eve, immediatelyupon sinning, a phone away from
(32:36):
God doing their own thing,eating that apple right.
Is the immediately going tohiding right?
Is the there's shame there'syeah right, yeah, and, and once.
Once that happened, I thinkthat becomes true of humanity is
that it's easier for us to hidewho we are than to be
(32:59):
transparent and as a marriedcouple, the goal is to be naked
and unashamed yeah.
In.
That's both figuratively, but Iwould also say figurative or,
and I actually and get naked,trying to say my brain can come
(33:21):
up with it either sorry so, butbeing naked and ashamed is is
part of learning to come out ofhiding as a couple yeah and I
think those things early on thatGod designed.
they're walking around in thegarden naked, unashamed, freely
talking to one another, freelytalking to God, and then, the
(33:42):
moment sinnered in, there's thishiding that happens, yeah.
And so learning, and I'll saythis it's learning to be
transparent, but this, I think,has the highest possibility of
building trust marriage is whenyou learn to be transparent and
really say I'm laying it all outlike we know it, but it's so
(34:06):
hard to implement, like we're soingrained to hide even yeah
closest to us.
So that's a challenge I thinkwe're constantly developing in
our own relationship of beingtransparent in that.
Danny Ray (34:21):
Are there ways like you can think of that?
We do that.
I think there are some that wejust don't even have to think
about anymore because they'vebeen in place in our marriage so
long.
I'm thinking of like passwordsand phones, and Ways that we can
be transparent are like.
Kimberly (34:42):
There's never a day I'm not gonna give you the
password and you can pick it upand you can look through
anything you want at any time,because I have nothing to hide
right?
And I think in somerelationships it's like oh well,
I did.
You know Texas, you know girlat my work and you know what
would my spouse think if I?
Danny Ray (35:01):
You know, and so it's being honest about everything
there were and I know I know fora lot of, I'll say, men
specifically the idea of beingtransparent with your spouse
about maybe you find anotherfemale attractive or maybe
talking about your Issues withpornography or maybe talking
(35:22):
about your insecurities, aboutbeing able to provide, or
whatever those things are, islearning to be transparent is
only going to build trust, yeah,and make your relationship
stronger yeah, but what makesthat easier is when, let's say,
(35:42):
take an example of ours, whenyou've been able to be
transparent with me and sharesomething with me, if it's safe
for you to do that, that's whatcontinues the cycle, right?
if I Blow you to pieces and getso upset with you for sharing
something with me, right thatthat breaks that trust again and
(36:04):
you know why would you comeback to me and share anything
and be transparent again, sothat they're really transparent
is a both, and that you, that weboth, have to Be open and
honest and transparent and haveaccess to phones and passwords,
and and that we're not hidinganything, but we have to be that
(36:25):
safe person to that they canwrite it's coming to you and you
blow up in their face.
Kimberly (36:31):
It's going to be harder for them to be.
Exactly transparent with you,exactly, exactly but the these
are ten principles that webelieve in.
Experts in the area believethat these will help you to
build trust in your relationship, and trust is foundational for
your marriage.
I would just say back to ourmantra we do whatever it takes
(36:54):
is do whatever it takes to buildtrust, to take one step in the
right direction, but this isDanny Ray and Kimberly and we
are.
Danny Ray (37:07):
Doing whatever it takes right.
Today we are looking at part two of building trust in
our marriages.
Kimberly (00:05):
Yes, that's kind of important.
So last time, if you tuned in,you know that there's three
people that we looked at theirresearch Dr Covey, david
Horsinger and John Gottman andbasically all three of these
people say these are 10principles that are essential
for building trust in yourmarriage.
So if you tuned in, you knowprinciple one is trust is
(00:28):
essential.
Principle two honesty andintegrity.
Principle three open and honestcommunication.
Principle four consistency.
Principle five accountability.
Danny Ray (00:39):
And today, Today we'll start with principle six
and we're talking aboutlistening and empathy, having
empathy.
So listening, are you listening, babe?
Kimberly (00:51):
I don't hear a word you're saying.
Danny Ray (00:53):
Oh, there's honesty.
So listening when we're talking, especially with our spouse,
but really gosh if it's at workwith anybody or kids.
Truly, I think in our cultureat least, more often than not
we're listening to respond.
We're thinking wait, wait, wait.
Has our mouth stopped moving?
(01:14):
They're stopped.
Oh, they stopped moving.
I can talk now.
No, I can talk, right, right.
Kimberly (01:18):
The other thing, though, when it comes to
listening, is the distractionsis even if there's the intent to
listen, the intent tounderstand the other person, we
are so like ding, what's that?
Oh, buzz, you know our phone orour watch, you know, and it's,
I'm listening.
I'm listening, but I'm going tolook at my watch really quickly
(01:40):
, just to check.
Okay, everything.
Oh, no, wait, hold on.
And so I feel like we're.
Danny Ray (01:45):
But you have a live person right in front of you.
Kimberly (01:48):
That's you know wanting your attention.
Danny Ray (01:50):
No, that's really, I don't know, confession time.
So I will say I do pretty wellat not letting the ding of my
phone or my watch Most of thetime.
I'm sure not all the time.
I don't want to be Pavlov's dog.
I don't want to be somebodythat just responds to a ding and
(02:11):
has to look.
Kimberly (02:12):
However, this sounds like a humble brag.
Danny Ray (02:15):
I don't know if this sounds like a confession.
Kimberly (02:17):
Okay, here comes the confession part.
Danny Ray (02:20):
I do pretty well at that in general, but it's not a
brag.
Kimberly (02:27):
But I do struggle with .
Okay, stop, but I choose not todo this.
Danny Ray (02:32):
Okay, this is my confession, Do you?
Kimberly (02:34):
want to hear it or not .
I want to hear it.
Give it to me.
Danny Ray (02:36):
So my confession would be I have a harder time
focusing, especially in a morepublic place, so a restaurant.
Oh wow Right.
Kimberly (02:46):
Yeah, you were terrible.
Danny Ray (02:48):
I mean you used to be Used to be terrible.
Come on, I've worked on it.
It's still a struggle.
Kimberly (02:53):
You've definitely worked on it, but you could tell
me what's going on on everytable in any given restaurant
and anytime.
If waiters are upset with thestaff, you're like oh, what's
happening with the waiters?
Oh, looks like the chef's upset.
I'm like what is happening?
Where are we?
Danny Ray (03:08):
I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm sure some of our listenerscan can relate to that.
Kimberly (03:15):
I'm sure you have a gift for it, yeah.
Danny Ray (03:18):
Well, we found it to be more of an annoyance than a
gift.
So actually that happened kindof early on in our relationship
and the other confession in thatis especially restaurants
started putting TVs in a longtime ago, Maybe when we started
dating.
That was probably around thetransition time somewhere in the
(03:38):
90s.
Kimberly (03:39):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (03:41):
And TVs in restaurants, and for me and I
know I'm not alone and I wouldsay statistically it's men, but
I am in this category too where,if there's a TV on, it is
difficult for me to not look atit, you're watching it.
Kimberly (03:55):
You're like our son Brian.
Yeah, since day one.
Danny Ray (03:58):
Yeah, if there's a TV on and he's frozen paralyzed in
front of it, I think I'm alittle less than that, but
there's just something that justyeah, it's very distracting,
and so, for me, I've made aconscious effort when I can in a
restaurant, when we get seated,I'm sitting with my back
towards the TV, my back towardsanything that could potentially
(04:20):
be distracting, so it usuallymeans my back towards the door,
which I just know is cringy forsome of our safety people out
there because they're alwayslike, nope, I am watching the
door and I'm aware.
Kimberly (04:33):
So I need to be distraction free as best as I
can, and that's on me to do andI think that's intentional on
both sides, and I definitelyfall under the category of my
watch dings.
My phone dings and I definitelywant to and as we were talking,
I'm going to turn off my phoneand my watch and make sure that.
I'm focused, putting it on donot disturb now.
(04:54):
Good job, so that I could bemore focused with you right now
as we had this conversation.
So listening and empathy,though when it when it comes to
that, you know it's easy to getdistracted.
But if we're, if we arelistening, what are some of the
second way?
Right?
Danny Ray (05:09):
So we're listening, though not just to respond.
We're listening forunderstanding, and there's a big
difference right.
So if we say hey, and actuallyyou and I use the terms I need
your eyeballs, right.
And that really eyeballs is afunny word, it is a funny word,
I don't know why, but so for usthat's a cue that, hey, I really
need to be distracted and Ireally need to talk to you, and
(05:31):
it's not just on the fly as I'mrunning out the door or like I
need your attention.
I need to literally look atyour eyeballs and and see your
face and see your reaction, seethat you're really listening to
me and not distracted.
So, and that goes both ways.
Kimberly (05:46):
We both call the the eyeballs.
The eyeball time is, I think,important and it really helps
with listening.
So you're not, you know, doingtwo things at once, which we
think we can do well, butsometimes we get sucked into.
Danny Ray (05:57):
Nobody can do it well .
The research is there.
Sorry, all of you think you canmultitask baloney.
That's a topic for another day.
Kimberly (06:10):
Multitasking, but listening effectively.
Another strategy and this issomething that we've talked
about but we don't use often isthis is important to me, that
phrase for us.
When one of us says, hey, thisis important to me, it's a drop
everything, yes, so basically100% of our attention is on the
other person, and we try to dothat just by saying eyeball time
(06:34):
.
But if it's kind of next level,the phrase we use is this is
important to me.
And that is something to let theother person know, like, hey, I
, I really need you to payattention and understand.
Danny Ray (06:47):
This is a big deal.
Kimberly (06:48):
Yeah, this is a big deal to me yeah, yeah.
Danny Ray (06:52):
Now, obviously the catch with that is you can't be
using it every day or everyminute of saying you know, this
is important to me, this isimportant to me.
Well then, it's going to loseall meaning.
So it is something used verysparingly, at least in our
marriage.
Right that we?
Kimberly (07:06):
Right, and that might not be the right phrase for you.
It might be, but there might bea phrase that you could talk
about as a couple that whensomething is really serious and
you really want somebody'sattention and you really feel
like they haven't understood youbefore, you can say fill in the
blank for us it's, this isimportant to me and that's just
(07:29):
for us, kind of the highestlevel of alert for us in our
marriage.
Danny Ray (07:32):
I would say yeah, yeah.
Kimberly (07:35):
A couple of times a year.
You know one of us might usethat.
Danny Ray (07:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, high alert is a good wayto put that out like that.
Kimberly (07:44):
So listening?
What about with the empathyside of it?
Can you talk about that for amoment?
Danny Ray (07:48):
Yeah, so it's something we really work on in
therapy, so I won't go too farinto it.
But essentially, If you say,hey, it really bothered me when
I don't know you didn't do thisor that you said you would, and
if I'm listening to respond,then I'm listening defensively,
(08:12):
right, I'm going oh I rememberwhen you know, no, I didn't do
that, or I said I would do it,but all these 10 things happened
and I couldn't do it.
That's just defensiveness,that's just coming up with, you
know, responding to, but insteadthe empathy piece comes in when
I actually stop.
I'm not defensive.
I listen to you and if you canattach an emotion to it and say
(08:35):
it made me feel helpless whenthis happened, or it made me
feel trapped when this happened,or like actually big, not even
just big, but just if you canattach an emotion I haven't done
(08:57):
that one an emotion word to it,that ideally brings empathy and
understanding.
And so if you're the one that'sbrought the concern up and
you've said, hey, I, it hurt myfeelings when this and it made
me feel this way, if I'm doingmy job and being an active
(09:19):
listener, then I can actuallybecome more empathetic by asking
more questions forunderstanding, right?
So if I ask I oh no, I can'teven think of a question If I
ask you, can you explain thatmore to me how that made you
feel that?
way Because it's confusing to me, or, but we want to have
(09:42):
compassion and because that'swhat I want ideally, when, when
roles are reversed right, I wantyou to understand.
Kimberly (09:49):
Yeah, throw something out, because let's say I am
listening to you and because Icould actively listen to you in
downplay.
What you're saying, so the same.
You're saying so each part isvalidating it.
Danny Ray (10:04):
Yes, that's a really good point.
So, even though and this iswhere I get stuck sometimes is
the intent.
So, if you bring up a concern,you say I, you know it hurt my
feelings when and I'm listening,and what did you just say with
that?
Kimberly (10:22):
The downplay with the other person, so you, you are
listening you do understand whatthey're saying, but if I say,
oh, it's not a big deal, orright?
Danny Ray (10:32):
So if I downplay what you've just, yeah, those fears
that you've brought to me, orthose concerns, I'm minimizing
it and I'm telling you that itdidn't matter.
And you're saying, no, it didmatter to me, and here's why.
So you're right, we have tovalidate it, and that means that
, even if I don't think I wouldhave felt the same way about the
same exact thing.
Kimberly (10:52):
That's the key right there.
Danny Ray (10:53):
Right, because it's not about how that would have
made me feel.
It's you being honest andtelling me how you felt about
the situation or the concern.
Kimberly (11:03):
So I think the key right there is we have to be
able to put ourself in the otherperson's position and not go
like what's the big deal?
Like I would have respondedthis way.
Why wouldn't you just do?
That Is the other person, youknow your spouse or you know
your whoever you're in arelationship with might not have
had the same fortitude or thesame ideas that you had in.
(11:27):
Those fears are real, and ortheir anxiousness, or whatever
it is.
So just downplaying it andsaying, hey, here's what I would
have done, isn't really gettinginto that other person's shoes
and trying to understand, whichhelps you to be empathetic in
that situation.
Danny Ray (11:43):
Right, right, for sure, yeah, and there's lots
more we could say on that.
Kimberly (11:46):
Yeah.
Danny Ray (11:46):
And, but for the purposes of today.
We want to listen and listeningto, not to respond, but to be
an active listener and askquestions about you know why it
felt that way to them and,ideally, bringing empathy.
Kimberly (12:05):
Yeah, responding in a healthy way.
Yeah, listening in an activeway.
Danny Ray (12:10):
That's going to build trust.
That's going to build trust,which is what we're talking
about, bottom line.
Kimberly (12:14):
Yeah, you're going to come away from that conversation
.
The other person's going tofeel supported.
You've supported them andthat's a step in the right
direction for building trust.
Danny Ray (12:24):
Right, because we feel safe Right.
So, if I can bring that concernto you, I felt safe and that
safety is building that trustfor sure.
Kimberly (12:34):
All right, so let's look at principle seven
commitment there's a word.
Some people don't want to hear,that's true.
I'm not committing to that, Infact.
Danny Ray (12:46):
I feel like our culture.
Kimberly (12:48):
It's almost like it's an epidemic these days.
It's nobody wants to commitahead of time.
They, you know.
If they find anything that'sslightly possibly better, we're
going to go do that you know,and when it comes to our
relationships, it's hard toReally commit to the other
person mind, body, soul to bepresent in that relationship.
(13:08):
And so, but this commitment isessential, I'll give you you
have a good yeah, like analogyor yeah this is from our son.
He talked to us about a class hewas taking it by Ola University
and you know, the prof said ifI was to say I'm going to touch
(13:29):
this wall, have I committed totouching that wall?
No no, what if I, you know,come up with a whole talk and a
presentation about touching thatwall and how Important it is to
touch that wall?
Have I touched that wall?
No, if I bring my hand reallyclose to that wall, have I
touched that wall?
No but I'm I'm close, I have theintent I want to.
(13:52):
I've told others.
I'm going to have I committedyet not yet, not yet and so the
the prof went on and on and then, like 10 minutes later, he
finally like slams his hand downon the wall on the class, like
now I've committed inCommitments, commitment.
(14:12):
It is touching that wall, it'snot talking about it.
And this is, I think, thedilemma we get into.
We get into an argument withour, our spouse and we, we work
things out and we say, okay, I'm, I'm never going to do that
again, or I'll, I'm going towork on that.
But the commitment takes time,energy and Watching you do that
(14:37):
consistently, not just talkingabout hey, I'm never, I'll just
take name-calling, like for us.
That's a boundary we don't enterinto in our relationship.
We could be upset with oneanother, but we, we don't throw
you know names out.
Danny Ray (14:54):
Yeah, no name calling no name calling.
Kimberly (14:57):
So that's a commitment We've made.
But if I broke that commitment,and I start calling you.
You're such a I, you know allthat stuff right, wouldn't go
well for you.
Danny Ray (15:11):
Just for the record, you're gonna throw something.
What you got, what you got.
No, that's another rule.
We don't throw things.
Kimberly (15:17):
I learned that the hard way.
I You're one.
That's a long time ago I hadsomething flat that can be
another podcast.
Sorry, but that's how, for us,some of those boundaries took
place as we made some mistakesand we went.
Okay, we don't want to handlethings like that again.
What can we do?
(15:38):
We make commitments not to dothose things again.
But if we slip up and we do them, we need to readdress it,
figure out how we could recommitto not doing that.
But that takes time inConsistency, seeing that I'm
really going to make thiscommitment to you for sure, and
not just words, not just talkingabout it, but actually touching
(16:00):
the wall.
Danny Ray (16:01):
Oh, love it Awesome.
So principle eight we'retalking forgiveness and such a
small one.
Yeah, so easy.
You guys got this, we got thisright, everybody's got this.
Kimberly (16:15):
Yeah, forgiveness, we've never had to forgive each
other.
Oh my gosh.
Danny Ray (16:20):
Sometimes minute by minute.
Probably for me, I'm sure notfor you.
Kimberly (16:27):
All the time.
I need your forgiveness and Iasked for it and that's true,
yeah, and, and you're prettygood at this, for sure.
Danny Ray (16:35):
But so here, when we're talking forgiveness, we're
also talking conflictresolution.
And Because how do you, oncewe've had an argument or a Break
in the trust, how do we resolveit?
How do we make amends?
How do you, you know, like,Repair the rupture, because
(16:56):
there's now this distrust thatthat's happened.
Kimberly (16:59):
So for a minute let's talk about what forgiveness is,
not To help understand whatforgiveness.
Danny Ray (17:06):
Okay, so to forgive, we don't have to forget that's.
That's one of them, right?
Kimberly (17:11):
Yeah, there's a common misconception that, oh, I have
to forget about a wrong that'sdone to me, and sometimes we
don't have the capacity and ifwe Believe that, we have to
forget it and then we'rethinking about it.
You know that that could befrustrating for us yeah and the
other person.
But it's not and that's not thegoal is to forget about it,
that that may or may not happen.
Danny Ray (17:32):
Some of us, and especially when you're talking I
, I'm gonna go there first.
I worst-case scenario, whenyou're talking assault or like
physical abuse or things likethat, that You're not gonna
forget that and you're notcalled to like that's.
That's not the goal.
So let's go back to forgiveness.
What other things are yousaying that forgiveness is not?
Kimberly (17:51):
I don't think for when I think about, for what
forgiveness is not?
It's not Something I'm tryingto put like words to this,
something that we can.
Danny Ray (18:02):
That's okay.
Words would be good.
Sorry, I don't.
It'll come back to me on.
Kimberly (18:07):
I had an idea on what forgiveness is not, but it's not
coming to me.
Danny Ray (18:11):
I think I cut you off with it.
Kimberly (18:12):
No, that's fine, I'll come back to that, but it's not
just sweeping it under the rugright and saying like I'm not
going to think about thatanymore.
And then it comes up later andnow it's like double the portion
because you really haven'tworked it through, Because you
just dismissed it, not forgaveit.
So I think that's important.
(18:33):
I'm sure there's other ones Ihad in my head a moment ago.
Danny Ray (18:36):
That's okay, yeah, so let's keep going with what
forgiveness is?
Yeah, and when you don'tforgive is kind of what you were
saying now.
If you sweep it under the rug,that's not going to be
beneficial.
I usually use the illustrationof we all kind of carry around a
backpack and imaginary backpack, and there are a lot of people
(19:00):
who would rather avoid anyconflict because of whatever
happened in their childhood.
Kimberly (19:05):
how they grew up.
Danny Ray (19:06):
Maybe conflict wasn't talked about or worked out, and
so they're used to the sweepingit under the rug, and so they
have imaginary rocks that theyput in the backpack along the
way.
They pick up the rock, theyturn it over and they go oh that
was something that he did orshe did and it really made me
mad, but I'm not going to bringit up.
And they think that they'vedismissed it.
(19:26):
They think that they, you knowlike, oh well, I'm over it.
Kimberly (19:29):
But they're putting it in the backpack, they're
putting it in the backpack.
Danny Ray (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Kimberly (19:33):
So it begins to weigh them down and begins to come
back up Until they erupt one day.
Danny Ray (19:39):
And it's just like because everything that they've
been carrying around in thatbackpack and they start hurling
these imaginary rocks at theperson that they're upset with,
right.
So sweeping it under the rugdoesn't work, it's not
forgiveness, it doesn't.
It's only going to have apotential rupture or, yeah, the
(20:02):
person's going to erupt really.
Kimberly (20:05):
When we look at this from like a Christian
perspective, I think it isessential to understand what God
has done for us.
Danny Ray (20:12):
When we look at.
Kimberly (20:12):
Colossians 313, it says bear with each other.
Thankfully, you know shedoesn't need to bear with me,
I'll please Right.
We have to bear with each other.
And then it says and forgiveone another.
And how are we supposed toforgive?
Forgive one another.
If any of you has agreementsagainst someone, forgive, as the
(20:34):
Lord forgave you.
So when we look at how God hasforgiven us, god sent his son to
die in our place like crucifiedLike that's crazy.
He lived a perfect life.
You know all these things, whereit's just like that's huge that
he would go to that extent tosay I want to forgive you and
(20:58):
when it comes to ourrelationship, I want to learn to
forgive.
Like that, where there's noamount of sacrifice, no amount
of humility that I won't putmyself into to forgive, instead
of it being from a position of.
I deserve this Because, from aposition of, I want what's best
for our relationship and I'mwilling to sacrifice, even if
(21:21):
I'm right.
I think this is one of theother misconceptions.
Danny Ray (21:25):
There we go yeah.
Kimberly (21:27):
Forgiveness is that we have this idea that Jesus, you
know, came to prove us right,you know, and it's not that.
It's not about being right in arelationship If I win an
argument and you lose we bothlose.
Danny Ray (21:42):
You lose yeah.
Kimberly (21:44):
We're in that.
It's a team sport.
We're on the same team, and soif I come out on top and you
come out on the bottom, or viceversa, that's not the goal of an
argument.
And so let's talk aboutconflict resolution and how we
could come to back to being onthe same page after there's been
(22:04):
, as you put, a terror did youput a terror in the relationship
, yeah, yeah, yeah, rupture,yeah.
Danny Ray (22:11):
So I always have to go back to when we talk conflict
resolution.
I always have to go back to thedays where I was actually.
We were both preschool teachersfor a little while in the very
beginning of our marriage, andwe were living out in Colorado
and teaching little ones and itreally bothered me, and this is
(22:34):
not just the to do with theschool that we were at.
This is every campus, every inour culture, at least in the
United States, where little kidsrun up to teacher or yard duty
on the playground and they sayteacher, he hit me or teacher,
he took my ball, she took myball, and the teacher typically,
(22:55):
or yard duty, will typicallysay say sorry and I'm sorry, and
the kids run off and all issupposed to be well.
Well, that is not conflictresolution.
Kimberly (23:07):
Right, those are just words.
You know.
Saying sorry doesn't repair arelationship.
Danny Ray (23:12):
Yes, that's a good way to put it.
Kimberly (23:14):
It's the intent behind that and obviously a kid on the
playground.
Danny Ray (23:16):
I'm sorry, you know like isn't has no meaning behind
it.
They just want to say it, toget on with life and get the
ball back, and that's it so, andthey're doing it out of
obligation.
Kimberly (23:27):
Same when you look at like a marriage relationship,
when you, when you were sayingsorry because you got caught,
sorry because you're not goingto do it again or that you've
committed a offense, it's like,oh so understanding why, why
we're saying those words andwhat those words mean, and
because it can hold a lot ofvalue, I know and our
(23:49):
relationship.
For you, sorry, has a lot moremeaning than it does for me.
And so when I say that I try to, you know, do that with the,
the intent, and not just go like, hey, babe, sorry, you know,
and kind of do it but really tryto understand what.
What is the way that I hurt youand how can I make that right?
Danny Ray (24:09):
Which is that's the big piece right there that.
So when I was talking aboutthose, the preschoolers and on
the playground, and I honestly Ijust started praying about it
and asking God like, how do wechange this?
This does not make sense to meto just tell the kids say sorry
and run off and all is supposedto be well.
And so God gave me the words toask have the children ask each
(24:35):
other?
So after they've said, you know, okay, I'm sorry for doing this
, the next thing is what can Ido to make you feel better?
And that's a huge part for us,that for our marriage right and
hopefully for, I think, othersthat we've tried to teach that
(24:56):
to along the way.
Hopefully that's been helpfulbecause that's the repair part.
So trust has been broken and tobuild it back up, we have to
repair it right.
And so we ask each other and itis humbling, I'm not going to
lie.
For me that's really sometimeseasier than other times.
Sometimes it's really difficultto say to you I'm sorry, but I
(25:19):
did that and what can I do tomake you feel better.
Kimberly (25:23):
And I guess you could take me up to the bedroom right
now.
Danny Ray (25:25):
Wow, wow, that is probably the answer you would
love to give me.
Most of the time I was going togive examples of what that
actually means, but okay, thatis one option, I guess for our
couple.
Kimberly (25:38):
I do not use that option.
Danny Ray (25:39):
No, no, no, you don't usually say that, but yeah,
yeah yeah, but it's not thatit's not an option, as long as
everybody's consenting to that.
So some of the let's go back tothe kids on a playground you
know you might or your own kids.
As a parent, you might say Iwant a high five, I want a hug,
please don't do it again, isanother option.
(26:00):
You can say and those are truein our marriage, I think a high
five for you and I might be alittle awkward, but so- that one
that's probably not going tomake me feel better or you, but
things that we do say you know,what can I do to make you feel
better?
And the answer might be I need.
I need a few minutes to myselfand then I just need to process
(26:24):
it kind of get over it and moveon.
So sometimes it's a few minutesalone.
It might be a hug, it might behey, can we just sit down and
watch something funny on ourphones for a minute, because we
need to shift gears and kind ofget out of this.
Yeah, jar in the system andright, right and we can go into
(26:45):
that another time.
We've addressed that before.
But yeah, so conflictresolution it's not just yelling
sorry and running away, even inour marriages.
Kimberly (26:54):
All right, let's look at principle nine, which is
emotional connection, and sopicture, you know, a couple
having like a heart to heartconversation about their dreams
and their fears.
You know they're sharing deepemotions and in doing that it
creates this emotionalconnection.
(27:15):
Yes, and I think, in terms ofbuilding trust, it's not just
you know the day to day stuff,but it's trying to create a
future for us together.
We've talked about you know themission statements that we've
created as a marriage togetheror you know different dreams,
whether it's a business dream orwe went out for Taco Tuesday
(27:39):
yesterday.
Yes, we did, and you know, wefound somebody that you know
just opened up a restaurant.
They're four months in, butthey, you know, they're living
their dream.
Danny Ray (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, who's all excited?
Kimberly (27:51):
Yeah, that comes by having those conversations and
saying, hey, I want to beconnected to your dreams, your
fears your hopes.
And I know for us, when we lookat the new year, january, we
don't just look at oh, let'screate.
What's the January first thing?
Danny Ray (28:12):
The resolution yeah, the new year's resolutions.
Kimberly (28:16):
Those are what they are.
Danny Ray (28:17):
Right.
Kimberly (28:18):
But for the last 25 years I've had goal setting in
like every area of my life.
You know from physical,emotional books I want to read.
It's like intellectual thefamily stuff, work stuff, you
know.
So I have all these differentareas where I go, okay, let's
create goals, but we've donethat as a family, we've done
(28:39):
that as a couple.
And that helps us to connect ina different way, to go like hey,
I want to be a part of yourdreams.
What are you afraid of thisyear?
I know for you it's a huge deal, the last three years of taking
on getting your master'sprogram and getting your hours
as a counselor and getting a jobas a counselor Like all these
(29:00):
things have been huge in thelast three years of developing
that new side of you and takingthat step of faith and really
like just doing it, like that'scrazy and I'm glad during you
know that season.
There's that emotionalconnection that you and I were.
You know that bond, and itwasn't an easy season.
Danny Ray (29:23):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have to be more intentional
about making that emotionalbond with each other right In
the day to day stuff.
For sure, I think I would say,as you're the dreamer in the
relationship there tends to be,and you're the dream crusher.
Yeah, I'm not going to lie,it's a good balance.
Kimberly (29:42):
It is a good balance and it was out of the off and la
la land all the time.
Danny Ray (29:46):
Oh my goodness, that's for sure.
So, and I find that mostrelationships seem to have that
right where one person is a bitmore of the dreamer than the
other, and so it comes a littlebit more naturally for the
dreamer to maybe ask thosequestions.
But if you're the dreamer, youknow, if we have dreamers out
(30:08):
there who aren't doing this, Idefinitely recommend that.
You know people ask each otherwhat do you, what are you
looking forward to?
It could be this week, it couldbe.
You know, what are you lookingforward to next year?
Those, if you create thoseemotional bonds, you know we're
dreaming together and it alsoscares me sometimes.
Kimberly (30:29):
But your dream if you are in a in a dreamer, dream
crusher world.
One of the things that we'vedefinitely learned is when I
bring a big idea like I've beenin a project for the last year
of developing a, an immersivemagic show that we're doing a
residency for the first time in20 years of doing this is a full
(30:52):
time Ministry business magicshow yeah, do, but doing it
local right and it was going tocost and it has cost, thank you.
But when I came to you with thatin this is my recommendation is
when you, when you come to thedream crusher, try to explain to
(31:13):
them like this isn't somethingI'm spending money on tonight.
This isn't something.
Yeah, right now this is an ideaI want to talk to you about.
The idea in the idea might bebig, but I'm not talking about
doing this tonight or tomorrow.
But just trying to have aconversation with you to let you
know what I'm thinking aboutdreaming, because early on, when
(31:34):
I come to you with an idea, allyou could see are like dollar
signs and you're like I need toshut this guy down.
Danny Ray (31:41):
Yeah, please stop, please stop the stream.
This can't be.
Yeah, this can't be real.
So, yes, how you approach eachother, how we approach each
other, definitely makes a bigdifference.
It's a.
It's a gentle startup.
Kimberly (31:54):
It's a yeah you preface it well each other so
that we know how to build thatemotional connection exactly
which builds trust.
Yes, so the going on aprincipal 10, the last one,
which is transparency andintegrity.
So transparency, I think, isone of those essential things
(32:15):
that we could easily makemistakes of hiding from our our
spouse and I'll say as a as afollower of Christ right, that
the very first thing thathappens in the garden Eden Right
is Adam and Eve, immediatelyupon sinning, a phone away from
(32:36):
God doing their own thing,eating that apple right.
Is the immediately going tohiding right?
Is the there's shame there'syeah right, yeah, and, and once.
Once that happened, I thinkthat becomes true of humanity is
that it's easier for us to hidewho we are than to be
(32:59):
transparent and as a marriedcouple, the goal is to be naked
and unashamed yeah.
In.
That's both figuratively, but Iwould also say figurative or,
and I actually and get naked,trying to say my brain can come
(33:21):
up with it either sorry so, butbeing naked and ashamed is is
part of learning to come out ofhiding as a couple yeah and I
think those things early on thatGod designed.
they're walking around in thegarden naked, unashamed, freely
talking to one another, freelytalking to God, and then, the
(33:42):
moment sinnered in, there's thishiding that happens, yeah.
And so learning, and I'll saythis it's learning to be
transparent, but this, I think,has the highest possibility of
building trust marriage is whenyou learn to be transparent and
really say I'm laying it all outlike we know it, but it's so
(34:06):
hard to implement, like we're soingrained to hide even yeah
closest to us.
So that's a challenge I thinkwe're constantly developing in
our own relationship of beingtransparent in that.
Danny Ray (34:21):
Are there ways like you can think of that?
We do that.
I think there are some that wejust don't even have to think
about anymore because they'vebeen in place in our marriage so
long.
I'm thinking of like passwordsand phones, and Ways that we can
be transparent are like.
Kimberly (34:42):
There's never a day I'm not gonna give you the
password and you can pick it upand you can look through
anything you want at any time,because I have nothing to hide
right?
And I think in somerelationships it's like oh well,
I did.
You know Texas, you know girlat my work and you know what
would my spouse think if I?
Danny Ray (35:01):
You know, and so it's being honest about everything
there were and I know I know fora lot of, I'll say, men
specifically the idea of beingtransparent with your spouse
about maybe you find anotherfemale attractive or maybe
talking about your Issues withpornography or maybe talking
(35:22):
about your insecurities, aboutbeing able to provide, or
whatever those things are, islearning to be transparent is
only going to build trust, yeah,and make your relationship
stronger yeah, but what makesthat easier is when, let's say,
(35:42):
take an example of ours, whenyou've been able to be
transparent with me and sharesomething with me, if it's safe
for you to do that, that's whatcontinues the cycle, right?
if I Blow you to pieces and getso upset with you for sharing
something with me, right thatthat breaks that trust again and
(36:04):
you know why would you comeback to me and share anything
and be transparent again, sothat they're really transparent
is a both, and that you, that weboth, have to Be open and
honest and transparent and haveaccess to phones and passwords,
and and that we're not hidinganything, but we have to be that
(36:25):
safe person to that they canwrite it's coming to you and you
blow up in their face.
Kimberly (36:31):
It's going to be harder for them to be.
Exactly transparent with you,exactly, exactly but the these
are ten principles that webelieve in.
Experts in the area believethat these will help you to
build trust in your relationship, and trust is foundational for
your marriage.
I would just say back to ourmantra we do whatever it takes
(36:54):
is do whatever it takes to buildtrust, to take one step in the
right direction, but this isDanny Ray and Kimberly and we
are.
Danny Ray (37:07):
Doing whatever it takes right.
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