September 27, 2023 • 24 mins
What happens when the blissful journey of marriage collides with the unexpected thorny path of mental health, particularly depression? In our podcast, we unravel our personal experiences, discussing how depression unexpectedly sneaked into our early years of wedded bliss, casting its shadows on our relationship. We journey back to the time postpartum depression first introduced itself, and how the sheer lack of awareness combined with the underestimation of the power of uninterrupted sleep began exerting pressure on our bond.
We have an open conversation about preserving the health of a marriage amid mental health struggles, underlining the significance of unity, teamwork, and the collective strength of seeking help. Our special guests, Danny, Ray, and Kimberly, join us in reinforcing the belief that marriage, akin to a team sport, demands joint efforts, particularly when faced with unexpected hurdles. Together, we aim to reassure you that you're never alone, and the bravest thing you can do is to allow yourself to be vulnerable. It’s a dialogue about the trials and triumphs of marriage, a heartfelt narrative about partnership against the odds, and most importantly, a testament to the enduring power of love and unity. Tune in on our honest expedition through the terrain of marriage and mental health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Ray (00:00):
Well, welcome back.
Today we're going to be lookingat strength and vulnerability,
specifically with how mentalhealth has strengthened our
marriage.
We've gone through a lot in thelast 27 years, but I'm gonna
let you talk a little bit aboutwhere we're going today You're
throwing me the ball to talkabout vulnerability and my stuff
(00:23):
.
I think we both have to bevulnerable in this and learn to
navigate mental health issues asthose arise.
Kimberly (00:29):
Fair enough and arise.
They did not that we wereexpecting them at all.
So for me, I would even startmy journey back in college when
we met and I was studyingpsychology as an undergrad.
And you touch on depression.
(00:51):
Nothing super specific backthen, but certainly I never in
my wildest dreams thought Iwould struggle with depression.
That wasn't my predisposition,it wasn't anything that and I'll
add to that.
Danny Ray (01:08):
So you're saying you couldn't have warned me and let
me know no, no, I could not havewarned you exactly.
Kimberly (01:13):
If I had thought that would be my issue, I certainly
would have tried to give you aheads up, but that's not the
case, and I think that's thecase for all of us.
It's hard to we don't know whatchallenges we're gonna have in
marriage and in life.
So I thought the one thing thatI was gonna be relatively good
(01:36):
at when I was younger I babysatevery kid in the block.
Danny Ray (01:40):
That was a one thing you were a rock star.
Kimberly (01:42):
Well, I loved it and I loved being with the kids and I
thought, okay, that's the onething that I will do.
Well, I've done like a lot oftraining, a lot of studying on
kids and how to work with themand well, fast forward to having
our first child.
And it turns out not that weknew at the time, but there was
(02:06):
definitely some postpartumdepression.
Danny Ray (02:08):
I think even before that, though there was when you
were put on bed rest that reallystarted to just kinda change.
That may have started it.
Kimberly (02:16):
Yeah, to be honest, I hadn't thought of that as the
beginning, but yeah there werethree months of bed rest to.
Danny Ray (02:26):
I think it started to just change our normal dynamic
of going out, being up, as youwere literally on bed rest.
Kimberly (02:36):
Yeah, yeah, so that, yeah, so yeah.
Three months leading up to thedelivery of our first born.
Danny Ray (02:42):
And let me back up to my education when I was in
seminary, and so I'm 22, so wejust got out of college.
Kimberly (02:51):
You were 22.
Yes, yes, I'm not 22 and beenmarried 27 years.
That's impressive.
I am a magician, all right fairenough, no.
Danny Ray (03:02):
so at 22, I'm in seminary and I remember taking a
class on pastoral self-care.
One of the lessons was ondepression and I can remember my
.
I'd only been a Christian forfive years.
I came to faith in Christ at 17.
But just how naive I was tothis situation.
(03:23):
So whoever the prof was, Idon't remember, started to talk
about depression.
What I remember is I tuned out,going like Christians,
depressed.
Why don't you read?
Kimberly (03:34):
the word oh, you're like in my head.
Oh, hey, I am really.
I'm saying, oh, because that'sI kind of crazy, and at the same
time, wow, right, God humbledyou.
Danny Ray (03:45):
Intentionally checked out of whatever that prof was
saying.
I'm like oh, I'll never dealwith that.
Little did it.
Kimberly (03:54):
I know Little did either of us know that that
would be, and I think at thispoint in our life that's
certainly a theme and probablyfor most people that you go huh,
the things that I may haveanticipated that we would
struggle with.
None of them were right.
They were all things that cameout of left field, that we had
no idea that these would be ourissues, so postpartum depression
(04:17):
being one of the first onesthat we struggled with and it
didn't realize it until babynumber two I probably somewhere
in there where I got pregnantwith baby number two and, yes,
there was a bed rest again withthat one and all those things
(04:37):
and essentially what we learnedyears later is that a big part
of that is a lack of sleep thatcontributes to postpartum
depression.
That's why so many moms Withyour serotonin levels.
Yeah, yeah, that they say.
The research shows that we needa minimum of six to eight hours
(04:58):
uninterrupted sleep.
Danny Ray (04:59):
What mom gets six to eight hours.
Kimberly (05:02):
No mom, no mom gets that and so, but it's something
I had no idea right.
Just no awareness of thatthought, so probably even times
where you offered to get up inthe night and I know, no, it has
to be me.
Well, had I known kind of aboutthis, the importance of
sleeping through.
Danny Ray (05:22):
Did I offer to get up in the night?
Kimberly (05:24):
I'm gonna assume that you did, because I'm gonna give
you the better of the doubt.
There were definitely times.
Danny Ray (05:28):
I can remember walking the children in the
middle of the night.
Kimberly (05:32):
Yes, yes, yeah, cause baby stage was not easy in our
house.
Danny Ray (05:38):
With number two, with number one and that was another
.
Like unplanned is number one.
We weren't up as much in themiddle of the night.
And then number two withmultiple ear infections, and so
I mean, one of the lessons Iwould say in this is learning to
plan for the unexpected inknowing how.
Kimberly (05:59):
How do we plan for the unexpected?
Danny Ray (06:02):
I think by some of the things that we've talked to
couples for years is go topeople that are beyond where you
are, where you look up to aparticular couple or in a
particular ministry or aparticular person or business,
and get mentored and getdiscipled and ask people for
wisdom.
I think that's one of the ways.
(06:22):
It's not that you'll never havethings that are unexpected, but
I think later on we started toimplement some of those things
to seek out wise counsel,intentionally to help navigate
those things that other peoplego.
Oh, this is probably going tohappen.
You might wanna be aware, andeven with the stage that we're
(06:44):
at now with being in empty nestis, we've talked to people.
We've asked people hey, whatdid you do?
Kimberly (06:51):
How are you navigating and?
Danny Ray (06:53):
we're navigating it with Taco Tuesdays and more date
nights, but now we're way offtopic.
Kimberly (07:00):
So getting back, yeah.
So asking other people that youlook up to and seem to have
solid marriages or they've comethrough a really rough patch in
their marriage and have come outthe other side stronger and
better.
Danny Ray (07:14):
So, yes, that is definitely yeah the way Proverbs
puts it in Proverbs 15-22,plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisors, theycede.
And we've just learned andwe're still in the process of
learning this, of getting peoplethat can counsel us and to help
(07:35):
us to navigate, because withmany advisors, not just like
one- but with many, we'll findmore success in those areas that
we're struggling at.
Kimberly (07:45):
For sure, and that can be really humbling.
So on our journey that was anexperience of of showing up at a
doctor's appointment when wehad, so by then, two little ones
, and you came with, my mom camewith and I had to say to the
(08:05):
doctor like I am angry a lot ofthe time and I'm frustrated and
I so depression.
I wanna back up a little bitthere.
So depression doesn't alwaysshow up the way that we see it
in the movies and in the books,where oh, I can't leave the
house, I can't do anything.
I don't want.
You know, I'm gonna just layhere in my bed all day.
(08:27):
I could get up and function,but I was angry.
And I think the anger wasmasking the depression,
Depression yeah, yeah, but cometo find out that's a part of it.
Danny Ray (08:41):
Yeah, okay.
Kimberly (08:42):
Right, because I didn't identify why I was angry
or what was going on underneaththe anger.
So it was wrapped up in thatand it was a warning sign, but I
had no idea.
That's not something we weretaught or has even talked about
a whole lot today.
Danny Ray (08:59):
Yeah.
Kimberly (09:00):
And actually it was a girlfriend that I went to and I
think she shared it, maybe at amothers of preschoolers meeting
or something, or maybe she justshared it with me on her own, I
can't remember.
But that was life-changingbecause she shared her story, I
was able to identify mine, thatI was in, and I was like, oh my
gosh, that's what I'mexperiencing, that's what I'm in
(09:20):
.
And so, yeah, huge blessingthat she was for doing that.
Danny Ray (09:26):
So let me give two practical things here really
quickly.
One is sharing your story isessential to experiencing health
, especially when we talk aboutmental health.
Is isolation is a dangerousplace to be.
So just wanna encouragewhoever's out there listening to
share your story.
(09:47):
There might be somebody thatcould come alongside that could
help you to navigate that.
And the second thing is theopen and honest communication as
a part of that story and nottrying to make it sound better
than it is but, being open andhonest with whether you're
talking to a counselor, a pastor, a friend is or your spouse is.
(10:13):
Here's what's really going onand being as open and honest as
you can be.
Kimberly (10:18):
Yeah, yeah, and so it was because she was honest about
it.
And then I think I'm sure Iwent to you next and said okay,
this was the conversation I had,and I think there's some
postpartum depression going onhere and that wasn't even easy,
I think you were still in themindset back then of, well, we
(10:39):
would just pray this away, like,is that fair to say, that's or
that?
It was hard to reconcile, I'vedefinitely changed my views on
depression.
Danny Ray (10:50):
I went from just being like.
Kimberly (10:52):
Christians.
That can't happen.
Yeah, you should just.
I've got the joy, joy, joy downin my heart Like what do you
need?
Danny Ray (10:59):
You got joy get rid of that depression, and so I
think it was a really naive andlack of understanding of
relationships and the struggleof mankind, of humanity, as you
look at the Psalms, and we havea hard time talking about lament
(11:19):
or about sadness but David wasreally comfortable calling out
to God in both the great timesand the times where he's weeping
and going to bed full of tears.
So my understanding of mentalhealth has changed over the
years.
It's hard to pinpoint when thatmight have changed for death
(11:42):
away.
I didn't have a greatunderstanding at that season.
And it was learning for both ofus, for sure, and we both
started to read books on thatand had healthy conversations
with other leaders aboutdepression.
Kimberly (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, so, and you probably sought out some of
your own kind of mentors in that, or at least research or right,
because on my side, I'm tryingto understand you.
Right.
And what is going on with her?
She's broken.
Danny Ray (12:13):
Yeah, and I love you, I want the best for you, but it
was almost like there's notmuch I could do to help you feel
better.
And so that's where you know,with some wisdom of doctors, the
medication that was able tohelp navigate continuing to pray
, continuing to create a plan ofhow do we go to a place of
(12:38):
health mentally again.
And one of the strategies thatsomebody gave to us that we
still use to this day is doing acheck in on a regular basis of
like where are you and what canI do to help you.
So we use a number system, Likeone.
I just want to end it all and10, Jesus just came back like
(13:00):
it's the greatest day ever.
And usually I would say like agood day for you is it like
seven or eight, and six, five,you're starting to like slip
into.
And so I found that if you're,you know, at a six, you know I
talked to you about what wouldhelp getting to a level seven, a
(13:21):
6.5, move you up a little bit,and oftentimes it was which is
foreign to me at that time ofunderstanding the connection to
a clean house, to your health,as I'm like.
The place is a disaster.
The kids have destroyed it,I've destroyed it.
There's food everywhere.
(13:41):
What's the problem?
You know right, Looks like mybachelor pad is perfect.
Kimberly (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, that was not perfect.
Danny Ray (13:48):
Learning to on my side, to know that, for your
sanity, having things cleanisn't just like this make
believe isn't just like oh, Ijust want you to be my slave
driver Right, you know, clean upsome things it really was
putting you in a position tofunction, to function yeah.
(14:09):
And so I was learning thosethings about how to bring more
health and help to the situation, instead of, you know, coming
home from work at that time andgoing like, hey, why is stuff
everywhere?
And you know realizing likeyou've been dealing with crazy
(14:29):
kids all day and trying to comein with a servant's mindset.
Kimberly (14:34):
And you did.
Danny Ray (14:34):
You were good at that .
Kimberly (14:36):
Yeah, I learned to be good at it.
That's fair.
So, backing up, as far as thejourney or the process came to
you, came to my mom, the threeof us went to a doctor's
appointment.
Fortunately that doctor is abeliever and that did play into.
(14:56):
He said I love that.
He asked about how's your prayerlife and I had to I'm sure
through tears look at him and go.
I can't even do that Like.
I know that I should.
I know I want to and Prayer.
Life wasn't where I hadstruggled ever before either.
So it was definitely anindicator that something is
(15:21):
definitely off here, and so Ilove that.
He asked that question and withall the other questions that he
asked, he said okay, you know,this really sounds like
postpartum depression, and Ithink we were all well.
I was definitely surprised bythat diagnosis at the time.
But anyway, fast forward toonce.
We accepted that we did trydifferent medicines.
(15:46):
Fortunately, that did work forme.
We found the right one, andthat has been a huge blessing in
my life and yours, to be honest.
Danny Ray (15:56):
I'll take that.
Kimberly (15:57):
Yeah, I think I've definitely been able to function
at a level that I could nothave without the medicine.
But I will say we didn't solelyrely on that either.
It was a combination ofmedicine and therapy and prayer,
I think, are the top thingsthat we really utilized.
(16:20):
So I did start therapy at thattime, going to a counselor, and
one of the biggest things Ilearned so for anyone else
struggling with postpartumdepression was that my
expectations of myself and mychildren were too high and they
weren't even obtainable.
So therapy definitely get help.
(16:40):
If you're struggling with anysort of depression.
I would encourage you bewilling to take the leap of
faith and try differentmedication, obviously under a
doctor's advisement, if that'swhat they think is best to not
be afraid of that.
But I won't go much furtherinto that.
(17:01):
But back to the tools that youwere sharing.
That scale of one to 10 was agame changer for us and we still
use it to this day withdifferent things.
There were years fast forwardfrom the postpartum.
There was a year where Idefinitely struggled.
Again.
It came out.
It felt like it came out ofnowhere and that depression I
(17:27):
definitely hit the lowest pointand that might have been when we
came up with a, or somebodytold us about the scale of one
to 10, or maybe we just hadforgotten to use it for a while,
we didn't need it, and then webrought it back up.
But anyway, that scale of oneto 10.
For us.
You've already explained howthe 10, for me was an incredible
(17:48):
day.
That's great.
One is not.
But what was huge in that isthat the goal is not a 10.
The goal doesn't even have tobe a nine.
We don't have to be living atour peak all the time.
That's unrealistic.
Danny Ray (18:04):
I think when you think of nine, you're talking
like that might be a familyvacation, that might be your
birthday.
Yeah, we have those moments,but day to day, there's work,
there's things that we're doingand, I think, in terms of
expectations, if the expectationis I'm supposed to have a 10
every day, if I'm not having a10.
Kimberly (18:27):
So, yeah, we want to be clear on that.
That's not the expectation ofthe goal.
Yeah, so trying to figure outwhat is like a.
Danny Ray (18:32):
This is the way I would say in terms of like the
depth of a relationship.
It's like when you look at ariver, that's just like you know
bubbling over and super fast,but the depth is really low
usually at that point.
But when you look at a lake,you know it's still, but it has
a lot more depth and I thinkthat's as I've come to
(18:53):
understand, like my own days andtrying to make the most of
every opportunity.
Every day is like that.
That might be an eight that I'mconsistently hitting, but the,
the nines, I would say, are morelike real special moments in
life and the 10 is if Jesuscomes back, so, so nine is kind
(19:13):
of the highest in my book.
Kimberly (19:16):
And all that to say, all that matters with that is
that your scale.
Danny Ray (19:20):
You need to talk to your spouse about it, right,
right.
Kimberly (19:23):
So that you both understand what those numbers
are.
You don't have to use ours, butbut at least make sure that
it's clear between the two ofyou.
And then with that scale wejust have to Kind of move that
needle just a little bit right.
So when I said I was at a five,then you Were like it wasn't
(19:46):
okay, what can I do to get youto a nine?
It was okay, what can I do toget you?
Just, you know what would helpyou and I didn't have.
Danny Ray (19:54):
Yes, you would do helping and, yeah, navigating
and and those were like greatdays for us.
But there was a lot of five,six and I found when you hit
like a four, there was verylittle I could do to really help
you but you know I in this.
This was a really difficult partduring that season is it was
(20:17):
like at that point I could cleanthe house, I could take the
kids, and oftentimes youwouldn't.
You wanted to stay in control,like you didn't want to let me
take the kids and that was hard,yeah, yeah.
Why don't you get out for alittle bit?
Just have some time on your own?
Kimberly (20:33):
have and.
Danny Ray (20:36):
But it was, it was very difficult to move from,
like that, four to a five orfive to a six, or six to a seven
was True, easier, true, butthose are times where you, I
think you just have to be withyour spouse and just Encourage
them not to give up.
That you're with them, no matterwhat and and go Through that
(20:56):
season with them and that's,that's not easy because I,
especially on my side, I want tofix it, I want to make a?
Yeah, I want to you know, getyou better, and that's sometimes
not With mental health, that's.
That's just not a solution.
Isn't always what the otherperson needs.
They need to have you be thereand to navigate this with them.
(21:20):
I want to Wrap up with with acouple things.
Okay.
One is our, our.
Our struggles aren't necessarilyyour struggles right Sure this
isn't like saying, oh, this ishow to deal with.
It's saying, hey, let's behonest with where we're at with
(21:41):
our own mental health and Talkto one another about that.
And you know, today we, youknow we're looking at, you know
Kim's Struggle that way and howI navigate it on the other side,
we could talk about my mentalhealth on a different episode
and talk about.
How we've learned to navigatethose things we the.
(22:03):
The point isn't to try to hitevery mental health issue out
there, but to say these thingsare real even as followers of
Christ.
It's not that everything'sgoing to be perfect.
We live in a fallen world withfallen people, where people die,
we experience loss weexperience, maybe losing a job,
(22:25):
loss of a friendship or a brokenfriendship, loss of a child,
all kinds of things that can putus into a tailspin, and we want
to encourage couples to Staystrong together, to go through
the heart wrenching loss attimes Together, to deal with
(22:49):
mental health issues together,not to feel like you're
isolating.
You have to do this on your own, but as a couple you become, a
couple that overcomes togetherand that can really strengthen
your marriage for sure.
So today, like all the stuff welooked at, those were moments
(23:09):
of a pain and hurt for us butthey strengthened our marriage.
They didn't Push us apart, butthose things pulled us together
to go.
We want to navigate thesethings together and be stronger
together Through the obstaclesthat come in this lifetime.
Kimberly (23:27):
And that's the key.
Right there, though, is beingintentional about doing it
together right?
It could have pushed us apartany of the depressive.
Episodes or however you want toput that right.
There was potential to, but wemade a decision even during like
no, nobody's doing this ontheir own.
This has to be something thatwe turn towards each other and
(23:49):
and work through together as ateam.
Danny Ray (23:52):
Yeah and I.
I think we'll leave you withthat is.
Marriage is a team sport.
Work together, stay together,get the help you need together.
Yes, this is Danny, ray andKimberly with we do whatever it
takes.
Well, welcome back.
Today we're going to be lookingat strength and vulnerability,
specifically with how mentalhealth has strengthened our
marriage.
We've gone through a lot in thelast 27 years, but I'm gonna
let you talk a little bit aboutwhere we're going today You're
throwing me the ball to talkabout vulnerability and my stuff
(00:23):
.
I think we both have to bevulnerable in this and learn to
navigate mental health issues asthose arise.
Kimberly (00:29):
Fair enough and arise.
They did not that we wereexpecting them at all.
So for me, I would even startmy journey back in college when
we met and I was studyingpsychology as an undergrad.
And you touch on depression.
(00:51):
Nothing super specific backthen, but certainly I never in
my wildest dreams thought Iwould struggle with depression.
That wasn't my predisposition,it wasn't anything that and I'll
add to that.
Danny Ray (01:08):
So you're saying you couldn't have warned me and let
me know no, no, I could not havewarned you exactly.
Kimberly (01:13):
If I had thought that would be my issue, I certainly
would have tried to give you aheads up, but that's not the
case, and I think that's thecase for all of us.
It's hard to we don't know whatchallenges we're gonna have in
marriage and in life.
So I thought the one thing thatI was gonna be relatively good
(01:36):
at when I was younger I babysatevery kid in the block.
Danny Ray (01:40):
That was a one thing you were a rock star.
Kimberly (01:42):
Well, I loved it and I loved being with the kids and I
thought, okay, that's the onething that I will do.
Well, I've done like a lot oftraining, a lot of studying on
kids and how to work with themand well, fast forward to having
our first child.
And it turns out not that weknew at the time, but there was
(02:06):
definitely some postpartumdepression.
Danny Ray (02:08):
I think even before that, though there was when you
were put on bed rest that reallystarted to just kinda change.
That may have started it.
Kimberly (02:16):
Yeah, to be honest, I hadn't thought of that as the
beginning, but yeah there werethree months of bed rest to.
Danny Ray (02:26):
I think it started to just change our normal dynamic
of going out, being up, as youwere literally on bed rest.
Kimberly (02:36):
Yeah, yeah, so that, yeah, so yeah.
Three months leading up to thedelivery of our first born.
Danny Ray (02:42):
And let me back up to my education when I was in
seminary, and so I'm 22, so wejust got out of college.
Kimberly (02:51):
You were 22.
Yes, yes, I'm not 22 and beenmarried 27 years.
That's impressive.
I am a magician, all right fairenough, no.
Danny Ray (03:02):
so at 22, I'm in seminary and I remember taking a
class on pastoral self-care.
One of the lessons was ondepression and I can remember my
.
I'd only been a Christian forfive years.
I came to faith in Christ at 17.
But just how naive I was tothis situation.
(03:23):
So whoever the prof was, Idon't remember, started to talk
about depression.
What I remember is I tuned out,going like Christians,
depressed.
Why don't you read?
Kimberly (03:34):
the word oh, you're like in my head.
Oh, hey, I am really.
I'm saying, oh, because that'sI kind of crazy, and at the same
time, wow, right, God humbledyou.
Danny Ray (03:45):
Intentionally checked out of whatever that prof was
saying.
I'm like oh, I'll never dealwith that.
Little did it.
Kimberly (03:54):
I know Little did either of us know that that
would be, and I think at thispoint in our life that's
certainly a theme and probablyfor most people that you go huh,
the things that I may haveanticipated that we would
struggle with.
None of them were right.
They were all things that cameout of left field, that we had
no idea that these would be ourissues, so postpartum depression
(04:17):
being one of the first onesthat we struggled with and it
didn't realize it until babynumber two I probably somewhere
in there where I got pregnantwith baby number two and, yes,
there was a bed rest again withthat one and all those things
(04:37):
and essentially what we learnedyears later is that a big part
of that is a lack of sleep thatcontributes to postpartum
depression.
That's why so many moms Withyour serotonin levels.
Yeah, yeah, that they say.
The research shows that we needa minimum of six to eight hours
(04:58):
uninterrupted sleep.
Danny Ray (04:59):
What mom gets six to eight hours.
Kimberly (05:02):
No mom, no mom gets that and so, but it's something
I had no idea right.
Just no awareness of thatthought, so probably even times
where you offered to get up inthe night and I know, no, it has
to be me.
Well, had I known kind of aboutthis, the importance of
sleeping through.
Danny Ray (05:22):
Did I offer to get up in the night?
Kimberly (05:24):
I'm gonna assume that you did, because I'm gonna give
you the better of the doubt.
There were definitely times.
Danny Ray (05:28):
I can remember walking the children in the
middle of the night.
Kimberly (05:32):
Yes, yes, yeah, cause baby stage was not easy in our
house.
Danny Ray (05:38):
With number two, with number one and that was another
.
Like unplanned is number one.
We weren't up as much in themiddle of the night.
And then number two withmultiple ear infections, and so
I mean, one of the lessons Iwould say in this is learning to
plan for the unexpected inknowing how.
Kimberly (05:59):
How do we plan for the unexpected?
Danny Ray (06:02):
I think by some of the things that we've talked to
couples for years is go topeople that are beyond where you
are, where you look up to aparticular couple or in a
particular ministry or aparticular person or business,
and get mentored and getdiscipled and ask people for
wisdom.
I think that's one of the ways.
(06:22):
It's not that you'll never havethings that are unexpected, but
I think later on we started toimplement some of those things
to seek out wise counsel,intentionally to help navigate
those things that other peoplego.
Oh, this is probably going tohappen.
You might wanna be aware, andeven with the stage that we're
(06:44):
at now with being in empty nestis, we've talked to people.
We've asked people hey, whatdid you do?
Kimberly (06:51):
How are you navigating and?
Danny Ray (06:53):
we're navigating it with Taco Tuesdays and more date
nights, but now we're way offtopic.
Kimberly (07:00):
So getting back, yeah.
So asking other people that youlook up to and seem to have
solid marriages or they've comethrough a really rough patch in
their marriage and have come outthe other side stronger and
better.
Danny Ray (07:14):
So, yes, that is definitely yeah the way Proverbs
puts it in Proverbs 15-22,plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisors, theycede.
And we've just learned andwe're still in the process of
learning this, of getting peoplethat can counsel us and to help
(07:35):
us to navigate, because withmany advisors, not just like
one- but with many, we'll findmore success in those areas that
we're struggling at.
Kimberly (07:45):
For sure, and that can be really humbling.
So on our journey that was anexperience of of showing up at a
doctor's appointment when wehad, so by then, two little ones
, and you came with, my mom camewith and I had to say to the
(08:05):
doctor like I am angry a lot ofthe time and I'm frustrated and
I so depression.
I wanna back up a little bitthere.
So depression doesn't alwaysshow up the way that we see it
in the movies and in the books,where oh, I can't leave the
house, I can't do anything.
I don't want.
You know, I'm gonna just layhere in my bed all day.
(08:27):
I could get up and function,but I was angry.
And I think the anger wasmasking the depression,
Depression yeah, yeah, but cometo find out that's a part of it.
Danny Ray (08:41):
Yeah, okay.
Kimberly (08:42):
Right, because I didn't identify why I was angry
or what was going on underneaththe anger.
So it was wrapped up in thatand it was a warning sign, but I
had no idea.
That's not something we weretaught or has even talked about
a whole lot today.
Danny Ray (08:59):
Yeah.
Kimberly (09:00):
And actually it was a girlfriend that I went to and I
think she shared it, maybe at amothers of preschoolers meeting
or something, or maybe she justshared it with me on her own, I
can't remember.
But that was life-changingbecause she shared her story, I
was able to identify mine, thatI was in, and I was like, oh my
gosh, that's what I'mexperiencing, that's what I'm in
(09:20):
.
And so, yeah, huge blessingthat she was for doing that.
Danny Ray (09:26):
So let me give two practical things here really
quickly.
One is sharing your story isessential to experiencing health
, especially when we talk aboutmental health.
Is isolation is a dangerousplace to be.
So just wanna encouragewhoever's out there listening to
share your story.
(09:47):
There might be somebody thatcould come alongside that could
help you to navigate that.
And the second thing is theopen and honest communication as
a part of that story and nottrying to make it sound better
than it is but, being open andhonest with whether you're
talking to a counselor, a pastor, a friend is or your spouse is.
(10:13):
Here's what's really going onand being as open and honest as
you can be.
Kimberly (10:18):
Yeah, yeah, and so it was because she was honest about
it.
And then I think I'm sure Iwent to you next and said okay,
this was the conversation I had,and I think there's some
postpartum depression going onhere and that wasn't even easy,
I think you were still in themindset back then of, well, we
(10:39):
would just pray this away, like,is that fair to say, that's or
that?
It was hard to reconcile, I'vedefinitely changed my views on
depression.
Danny Ray (10:50):
I went from just being like.
Kimberly (10:52):
Christians.
That can't happen.
Yeah, you should just.
I've got the joy, joy, joy downin my heart Like what do you
need?
Danny Ray (10:59):
You got joy get rid of that depression, and so I
think it was a really naive andlack of understanding of
relationships and the struggleof mankind, of humanity, as you
look at the Psalms, and we havea hard time talking about lament
(11:19):
or about sadness but David wasreally comfortable calling out
to God in both the great timesand the times where he's weeping
and going to bed full of tears.
So my understanding of mentalhealth has changed over the
years.
It's hard to pinpoint when thatmight have changed for death
(11:42):
away.
I didn't have a greatunderstanding at that season.
And it was learning for both ofus, for sure, and we both
started to read books on thatand had healthy conversations
with other leaders aboutdepression.
Kimberly (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, so, and you probably sought out some of
your own kind of mentors in that, or at least research or right,
because on my side, I'm tryingto understand you.
Right.
And what is going on with her?
She's broken.
Danny Ray (12:13):
Yeah, and I love you, I want the best for you, but it
was almost like there's notmuch I could do to help you feel
better.
And so that's where you know,with some wisdom of doctors, the
medication that was able tohelp navigate continuing to pray
, continuing to create a plan ofhow do we go to a place of
(12:38):
health mentally again.
And one of the strategies thatsomebody gave to us that we
still use to this day is doing acheck in on a regular basis of
like where are you and what canI do to help you.
So we use a number system, Likeone.
I just want to end it all and10, Jesus just came back like
(13:00):
it's the greatest day ever.
And usually I would say like agood day for you is it like
seven or eight, and six, five,you're starting to like slip
into.
And so I found that if you're,you know, at a six, you know I
talked to you about what wouldhelp getting to a level seven, a
(13:21):
6.5, move you up a little bit,and oftentimes it was which is
foreign to me at that time ofunderstanding the connection to
a clean house, to your health,as I'm like.
The place is a disaster.
The kids have destroyed it,I've destroyed it.
There's food everywhere.
(13:41):
What's the problem?
You know right, Looks like mybachelor pad is perfect.
Kimberly (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, that was not perfect.
Danny Ray (13:48):
Learning to on my side, to know that, for your
sanity, having things cleanisn't just like this make
believe isn't just like oh, Ijust want you to be my slave
driver Right, you know, clean upsome things it really was
putting you in a position tofunction, to function yeah.
(14:09):
And so I was learning thosethings about how to bring more
health and help to the situation, instead of, you know, coming
home from work at that time andgoing like, hey, why is stuff
everywhere?
And you know realizing likeyou've been dealing with crazy
(14:29):
kids all day and trying to comein with a servant's mindset.
Kimberly (14:34):
And you did.
Danny Ray (14:34):
You were good at that .
Kimberly (14:36):
Yeah, I learned to be good at it.
That's fair.
So, backing up, as far as thejourney or the process came to
you, came to my mom, the threeof us went to a doctor's
appointment.
Fortunately that doctor is abeliever and that did play into.
(14:56):
He said I love that.
He asked about how's your prayerlife and I had to I'm sure
through tears look at him and go.
I can't even do that Like.
I know that I should.
I know I want to and Prayer.
Life wasn't where I hadstruggled ever before either.
So it was definitely anindicator that something is
(15:21):
definitely off here, and so Ilove that.
He asked that question and withall the other questions that he
asked, he said okay, you know,this really sounds like
postpartum depression, and Ithink we were all well.
I was definitely surprised bythat diagnosis at the time.
But anyway, fast forward toonce.
We accepted that we did trydifferent medicines.
(15:46):
Fortunately, that did work forme.
We found the right one, andthat has been a huge blessing in
my life and yours, to be honest.
Danny Ray (15:56):
I'll take that.
Kimberly (15:57):
Yeah, I think I've definitely been able to function
at a level that I could nothave without the medicine.
But I will say we didn't solelyrely on that either.
It was a combination ofmedicine and therapy and prayer,
I think, are the top thingsthat we really utilized.
(16:20):
So I did start therapy at thattime, going to a counselor, and
one of the biggest things Ilearned so for anyone else
struggling with postpartumdepression was that my
expectations of myself and mychildren were too high and they
weren't even obtainable.
So therapy definitely get help.
(16:40):
If you're struggling with anysort of depression.
I would encourage you bewilling to take the leap of
faith and try differentmedication, obviously under a
doctor's advisement, if that'swhat they think is best to not
be afraid of that.
But I won't go much furtherinto that.
(17:01):
But back to the tools that youwere sharing.
That scale of one to 10 was agame changer for us and we still
use it to this day withdifferent things.
There were years fast forwardfrom the postpartum.
There was a year where Idefinitely struggled.
Again.
It came out.
It felt like it came out ofnowhere and that depression I
(17:27):
definitely hit the lowest pointand that might have been when we
came up with a, or somebodytold us about the scale of one
to 10, or maybe we just hadforgotten to use it for a while,
we didn't need it, and then webrought it back up.
But anyway, that scale of oneto 10.
For us.
You've already explained howthe 10, for me was an incredible
(17:48):
day.
That's great.
One is not.
But what was huge in that isthat the goal is not a 10.
The goal doesn't even have tobe a nine.
We don't have to be living atour peak all the time.
That's unrealistic.
Danny Ray (18:04):
I think when you think of nine, you're talking
like that might be a familyvacation, that might be your
birthday.
Yeah, we have those moments,but day to day, there's work,
there's things that we're doingand, I think, in terms of
expectations, if the expectationis I'm supposed to have a 10
every day, if I'm not having a10.
Kimberly (18:27):
So, yeah, we want to be clear on that.
That's not the expectation ofthe goal.
Yeah, so trying to figure outwhat is like a.
Danny Ray (18:32):
This is the way I would say in terms of like the
depth of a relationship.
It's like when you look at ariver, that's just like you know
bubbling over and super fast,but the depth is really low
usually at that point.
But when you look at a lake,you know it's still, but it has
a lot more depth and I thinkthat's as I've come to
(18:53):
understand, like my own days andtrying to make the most of
every opportunity.
Every day is like that.
That might be an eight that I'mconsistently hitting, but the,
the nines, I would say, are morelike real special moments in
life and the 10 is if Jesuscomes back, so, so nine is kind
(19:13):
of the highest in my book.
Kimberly (19:16):
And all that to say, all that matters with that is
that your scale.
Danny Ray (19:20):
You need to talk to your spouse about it, right,
right.
Kimberly (19:23):
So that you both understand what those numbers
are.
You don't have to use ours, butbut at least make sure that
it's clear between the two ofyou.
And then with that scale wejust have to Kind of move that
needle just a little bit right.
So when I said I was at a five,then you Were like it wasn't
(19:46):
okay, what can I do to get youto a nine?
It was okay, what can I do toget you?
Just, you know what would helpyou and I didn't have.
Danny Ray (19:54):
Yes, you would do helping and, yeah, navigating
and and those were like greatdays for us.
But there was a lot of five,six and I found when you hit
like a four, there was verylittle I could do to really help
you but you know I in this.
This was a really difficult partduring that season is it was
(20:17):
like at that point I could cleanthe house, I could take the
kids, and oftentimes youwouldn't.
You wanted to stay in control,like you didn't want to let me
take the kids and that was hard,yeah, yeah.
Why don't you get out for alittle bit?
Just have some time on your own?
Kimberly (20:33):
have and.
Danny Ray (20:36):
But it was, it was very difficult to move from,
like that, four to a five orfive to a six, or six to a seven
was True, easier, true, butthose are times where you, I
think you just have to be withyour spouse and just Encourage
them not to give up.
That you're with them, no matterwhat and and go Through that
(20:56):
season with them and that's,that's not easy because I,
especially on my side, I want tofix it, I want to make a?
Yeah, I want to you know, getyou better, and that's sometimes
not With mental health, that's.
That's just not a solution.
Isn't always what the otherperson needs.
They need to have you be thereand to navigate this with them.
(21:20):
I want to Wrap up with with acouple things.
Okay.
One is our, our.
Our struggles aren't necessarilyyour struggles right Sure this
isn't like saying, oh, this ishow to deal with.
It's saying, hey, let's behonest with where we're at with
(21:41):
our own mental health and Talkto one another about that.
And you know, today we, youknow we're looking at, you know
Kim's Struggle that way and howI navigate it on the other side,
we could talk about my mentalhealth on a different episode
and talk about.
How we've learned to navigatethose things we the.
(22:03):
The point isn't to try to hitevery mental health issue out
there, but to say these thingsare real even as followers of
Christ.
It's not that everything'sgoing to be perfect.
We live in a fallen world withfallen people, where people die,
we experience loss weexperience, maybe losing a job,
(22:25):
loss of a friendship or a brokenfriendship, loss of a child,
all kinds of things that can putus into a tailspin, and we want
to encourage couples to Staystrong together, to go through
the heart wrenching loss attimes Together, to deal with
(22:49):
mental health issues together,not to feel like you're
isolating.
You have to do this on your own, but as a couple you become, a
couple that overcomes togetherand that can really strengthen
your marriage for sure.
So today, like all the stuff welooked at, those were moments
(23:09):
of a pain and hurt for us butthey strengthened our marriage.
They didn't Push us apart, butthose things pulled us together
to go.
We want to navigate thesethings together and be stronger
together Through the obstaclesthat come in this lifetime.
Kimberly (23:27):
And that's the key.
Right there, though, is beingintentional about doing it
together right?
It could have pushed us apartany of the depressive.
Episodes or however you want toput that right.
There was potential to, but wemade a decision even during like
no, nobody's doing this ontheir own.
This has to be something thatwe turn towards each other and
(23:49):
and work through together as ateam.
Danny Ray (23:52):
Yeah and I.
I think we'll leave you withthat is.
Marriage is a team sport.
Work together, stay together,get the help you need together.
Yes, this is Danny, ray andKimberly with we do whatever it
takes.
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